Kirkham Motorsports University CNC Billet Aluminum 427 FE Engine Block 1 of 3
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Here is another RUclips from Kirkham Motorsports University. Here we show you how we took a solid, 386 pound block of aluminum and machined it into a 427 FE engine block. www.KirkhamMotorsports.com
As a machinist who has done large complex parts, I can tell you, this stuff ain't easy. The opportunity for mistake, or error is extremely vast. And 1 simple thing, at the end of the entire ordeal can totally screw up everything.
WOW! I made one just like that last week on my Bridgeport......NOT!
@billg69gmc Thanks for the kind words. I sincerely appreciate them.
30 hours of CNC
30 hours of CAD
50 hours of programming. We spend a lot of time programming because we program in all the deburring passes and champhers to make a nice part.
FE blicks are deep skirt cross bolted mains , this isn't , how is it an FE?
stands for ford edsel , this engine is based of the ford 427 which was put in the cobra (behind him) don't think it was deep skirt. anyways this is just based on the 427 ford. it's a custom billet block weighing over 400 pounds less than the original 600 pound cast block. don't gotta be the exact same.
It isn't a big block FE much less a side oiler FE used in the Cobra AC cars. It's a lovely piece no doubt, and oh so light by the looks, and likely just as fragile. Yes the skits of a real FE ford extended below the crank center line (the reason it was called a big block in the first place) and used cross bolts to tie the bottom end into a ridged unit. The original FE bare blocks weighted in around or a bit over 200 lbs, a long block might be in the 600 to 700 lb range depending on manifold and heads used. The original factory side oiler blocks correctly prepped could handle 2500 to 3000 hp running a blower with very high loads of nitro. First engine to run a 6 second ET in 1965 or 1966 memory fails me here. I have a feeling this FE want to be might struggle at 1000 to 1500 hp to keep the head gasket sealed on gas, heaven only knows what would happen with even a modest dose of the cackle juice, no bridging at the cylinder head mating surface. Sure it's a great piece to put in a Cobra kit car with neat tech appeal and it's good branding to help sales. But no it ain't remotely an FE of yore. Oh well each to their own.
I run the same machine.
However, your parts are considerably more complex. Excellent machine work. Thanks for posting video.
A day and a half cycle time?
Yes, I think it was about 30 hours of machine time.
Thanks for the kind words. I sincerely appreciate them.
30 hours of CNC
30 hours of CAD
50 hours of programming. We spend a lot of time programming because we program in all the deburring passes and champhers to make a nice part.
Good job sir
@@prinzikenna.o6577 Thanks! Glad you liked it :)
What type of aluminum is used sir
@@QLQZ 6061 T6
@@KirkhamMotorsports1 Sir I want to ask you about something
I would LOVE to do this one day. I'm studying to become an engineer and I love this stuff haha I can even get emotional about it
yes i got 4 1600oz steppers for my 2 stroke big block project, i might need 5 axis not sure as i have to run a baffled sealed airtight crankcase for scavenging. most 427 can un dirested oil injection and are popper valved 2 stroks with 2 VRP pumps. Most today can run XD-100 ETEC BRP 2 stroke oil with out problems ans most 572 CID 2 stroks do anyways. I might get bigger 4200 ounch in stepper motors with drives and board for more handleing for the big 2 stroke!
Nice work , and you are a gentleman David, you answered all those questions , even the smart ass ones with complete aplomb, well done all around sir !
Thanks :) Most people really do want to add to the discussion. I certainly don't know everything and have learned quite a bit listening to other people with more experience that I have. Thanks for the kind words :)
@xevious2501 Thanks. Yes, all the chips are recycled. It takes much less energy to remelt chips than to make aluminum from oxide. I don't know of anyone who machines at extreme temperatures. I am not sure how you would keep the part at any extreme temperature for any meaningful length of time as the machining process is quite long. We take thermal expansion into consideration when machining tolerances. I am excited to look into any info you might have on Ferrari's process.
在加工上跟熱處理一樣冷膄熱脹，侯不能太熱，材質關係好大分享
@@洪素鶴-t2u Thank you!
Very cool, how do you move those blocks around? seems like a tight fit in that cnc cabinet
We use a forklift to put it in and take it out. There is very little room. We are right on the edge of the machining envelope.
Great video on how to close splash doors on a cnc machine
I want a 150 hp car or 500 horsepower. Can you help?.What should I change? Just tell me..l want to make my own car..I have an old car. I want to experiment with it.,I'm removing the engine now,,I need your information. Renault laguna 2 2007 year 268000km 110kw M9R engine.help me please..
Why on earth would you turn a beautiful piece of aluminum into a Ford?!!!!!
causeimbatmaaan
First On Race Day
Because! 😂
Because man cannot race by Chevy alone.
Because Chevrolet never made anything that beautiful.
Yes, I posted we could make a car in Stainless--but for some reason I can't find it right now. There are problems with posting comments now that youtube and google and google+ are connected. They just started. Hopefully they will have it solved quickly. And...thank you very much for the kind words :)
Thanks for the vote of confidence. We are completely booked right now with orders.
We sent the block out to be line bored at an engine shop. The cam bearings are all the same size. We took out material to save weight (it is easier than going on a diet :)
We are using 6061. It is the best all around alloy for this application (corrosion resistance, strength at temperature, availability, etc).
I could watch you do this all day long. I'm a retired CNC Machinist living in the Space Coast of Florida. Many of my parts went up in space for satellites and such. I do miss working on them. Ran quite a few Haas and others. I so loved setting them up and getting a first piece off to see what the final product looked like. Great work on those blocks.
Thanks! I love making things! We are working on a crazy part right now. I'll work on getting a video of it up for everyone to see. It is 80 inches long!
That's impressive I'm guessing you guys can make a complete engine right from the CNC machine.
We probably could. I have thought about it.
Great question. Cast iron sleeves have been used for decades in engines. Cast iron holds oil well and wears for a long, long time. There are some exotic sleeves today that are used as well-- such as Nikisil.
What type of oil injection does this engine use? i would run nothing but synthetic motule 800 2t in it!
A work of art! I look forward to seeing more form you guys...
The main problem is wear,directly caused by the materials properties.
The coeficient of friction is very important.
You cannot make parts to work together if the different material do not "marry" correctly.
aluminum and cast iron work very good together,stainless steel is very bad : it will cause seizure,even with a very good lubricant.
bronze is too soft,specific steel is good too with aluminium,but less than cast iron.
all is question of metals qualities and own properties.
Cast iron sleeves with aluminum pistons allow less friction than aluminum block or sleeves with aluminum pistons.
Bronze would be way better than cast iron but too soft...
Once machined and broken in by the very hard piston rings cast iron is not abrasive anymore and is very smooth but still porous ,and like said it keeps oil quite well.
nikasil coatings exist on aluminum sleeves or bores.
to avoid cast iron engine blocks or sleeves heavier than aluminum but imitating cast iron properties
at 2.30 you say got old american ... you mean Haas i think ... does Haas use Haas servo drive motors and a haas Nc boards just wondering , just another yank talking shit , nice block yes .
@522design We can do a block every couple of days if we wanted to. However, we just got the first block back from the dyno and we are now about to test it in a car. We'll keep you updated.
I spent the majority of my career as a CNC set up man. That's really a great job you've done.
Not sure off the top of my head if that machine is capable of running through spindle coolant, but if it is, you could save a lot of time and money when drilling the oil and water journals if you used a through spindle carbide drill. Guhring makes some very nice ones. Pricey, but they drill fast with no pecking, and they last quite awhile.
it's just a metal properties problem.
for ex : there are bearings (soft alloy) sandwiched between very hard steel parts to avoid seizure.
CNC milling machines are amazing!
Good Lord. That engine is at least as desirable as the car. Machined from a single billet! Holy hell man. That must be the sweetest FE on the planet.
Thanks :)
Very very impressive! I love the fact that you guys' use HAAS's -many people believe that they're just cheap, throw-away machines; when they're easily capable of achieving tolerances within tenths. I can't imagine how long it took to program and plan something like this. Most aerospace parts I've programmed/made don't even touch this. Kudos!
You don't repair a HAAS, you replace it.
I want to work at your place.. Love to see someone actully maximazing the machine capabilities. Brilliant!
Nice work on that piece. However when I saw the operator using gloves to remove some chips from the work area I got a bit worried. You might want to use a chip brush intead of gloves to remove chips since the brush does not have your hand inside where the machine moves.
Actually the gloves aren't a big deal.....you shouldn't have your hands in or around moving parts anyway.
Jerry Lauber Personally I am not comfortable using anything that might pull me into the machine. With a brush I can just let go of it if something goes wrong.
P0TAT0_CANN0N You can't get pulled into a machine if you hands are not in there. You shouldn't be removing chips when the machine is in operation. There is a guy I work with that had 3 of his fingers cut off because he was messing with the machine while it was in operation.....still blaming the gloves he was wearing. When in all reality......it was his own ignorance of having his hands in the wrong place that cost him.
Jerry Lauber Oh I know that the machine isn't likely to activate if I don't do something especially stupid, I just wouldn't trust someone not to bump something they shouldn't, like the start button.
It's better to be overly cautious than maimed or dead.
P0TAT0_CANN0N That's why I just use an air hose.
We have always wanted a horizontal. It certainly would be better for a block. That is a great idea to use the lathe for relieving end mills. We will get an insert and try it. We used the mill this time because we had it handy and were back up and running again in about 15 minutes. Great suggestion :) Thanks!
That block came out so nice it's almost a shame to use it. Lol. Very nice work!! 👌
+Danny Caballero right on! I would make a table out of it, with a glass top so people can see the beautiful cylinders........lol,
Roy Hemion that'd be an awesome idea!! Lol
@dethmetalderique GREAT question! 7075 is a great alloy for high strength--at certain temperatures. However, 7075 has poor strength at the higher temperatures encountered in an engine. 6061 is actually stronger at engine temperatures. 7075 also exhibits very poor corrosion resistance. 7075 is also very susceptible to stress corrosion cracking. 6061 has far higher resistance to corrosion.
I wonder what the advantage is of using a forging and having to machine the crap out of it to using a casting with minimal machining?
Yes, I'd like to know the answer. I assume it must be cost effective this way, but I think castings with less machining may provide an engine block with less inbuilt (machining) stresses and greater strength due to material grain patterns following the structure of the casting. Please advise :-)
how much did it cost to buy a slab of alluminum?
Probably $1 a pound.
its cheap as fuck
way cheaper than the $3-5k price tag of that motor.
It really is a ton of fun. There is a huge need in US industry for guys who can design, program, and run these types of machines. Keep working hard :)
I'm a CNC programmer / set-up / production manager, have to ask, what's the total cycle time? We've been machining prototype parts from scratch for everything from ROV submarines to cutting edge medical components, and I still like to see a part emerge from a solid block of stock. Still not jaded after doing this for over thirty years. Enjoy seeing your videos.
Take care
I'm sorry but that is not an FE style block. Why would you go to the trouble and not incorporate splayed mains into it; or keep the six bolt design? That's a HUGE waist.
Exactly. It's not a true Ford 427 FE without the skirts and the cross-bolted mains.
The massive strength advantage from running a split crankcase/ girdle is the best reason. If your going to this length to machine a block you would be silly not to.
As an ex machinist and tool crib/tool ordering person I can appreciate the work you are doing! You were hanging some of those endmills way out there which tend to snap (Goodbye $3-400 each). Great design and programming!
whats the advantage of using sleeves vs. (block) walls for the pistons? Damn that block looks thin as hell. How much Hp & tq can you run through that 427 block & be reliable?
With the sleeves we can make it lighter. The engine dyno'd at 645 hp (if I remember right) and it now has over 10,000 miles on it.
@@KirkhamMotorsports1 hey Dave, Whats the maximum amount of HP & TQ can a person get when he orders one of your kit cars?
How many end mills do you go through in one block? This is pretty impressive and it is good to see this type of manufacturing right here in the US. I am a mold toolmaker for a company and it kills me to see foreign tools come in. More people need to be aware of what we can do as machinist. It is also good to see you using an American Made machine! its so easy to get others in this world. GREAT VIDEO!
J Jones,
We did the line bores later. We did not line the lifter bores--not necessary.
i've been kicking around some ideas on how to line bore the mains. the real killer setup is if i can keep them concentric, circular, and on size with a right angle head. does this have a lot of residual stresses in it after all the material removal or do you do it 95% and then rest it for a week or so and then back on the machine to finish it?
We like to keep our guys happy :)
Thanks for watching!
@fixerdave, Great question! We rough machine the block and leave lots of material on for a "roughing finish pass." Then we machine the block again and leave about 0.010" for a finish pass. Then we do the final pass. Because the block is free to rotate on the pillow block end of the "A" axis, it twists and stress relieves every time the pillow block brake releases and the block rotates. We connected the pillow block brake to the same air brake that is used on the rotary axis.
Thank you so much for this video! It was amazing to watch!
Not a true 427,it does not have 4 bolt main cross bolts. And it's not a side oiler either. just sayin'...
mark jeffries On this one you put two bolts in each hole to make it a true 4-bolt main.
I know it's been 4 years but you're a fuckn idiot. There are 427's with 2 bolt mains and THIS ARGUMENT DOESN"T MEAN SHIT BECAUSE JUST GET A THICKER FUCKING CAP YOU GOD DAMN BACK YARD MECHANIC PIECE OF SHIT THAT DON"T KNOW FUCKN NOTN
seriously! You couldn't spend a little change and clean that damn Plexiglas. A bottle of alcohol at Walmart is only a buck fifty FFS. Fantastic job! sweet looking piece of work.
this block should have been machine on Mori......Haas not accurate enough for engine high rpm but Mori is
Sounds like you run a Mori.
Great answer. There are other exotic steels that have been used over the years. Cast iron is the best combination of wear, cost, function, ease of manufacture, lots of experience, etc.
what a time to be alive. awesome engine work
A masterpiece! We used to joke about this.....it's incredible to see these. Keep up the good work.
"Good old American manufacturing" that's what I like to hear! BTW: No cross bolted mains on this block?
We decided to make the block like an F1--with a girdle instead of cross-bolted mains.
Dasme Sha, the block has wet sleeves like an F1.
This is pretty cool. Question; whats your machining time and set up time? For this kind of jog? Thank you.
I'll bet it's not as bad you would think. When I first started doing CNC work we had to write everything up and type it in by hand. Now days they have auto cad and other engineering programs that do it all for you. Most places just have to load the tooling and hit the start button.
Thanks for posting. Enjoyed that.
One of the more intersting videos on youtube
Is there even any sense in asking about the possibility of a one-off block? I imagine the costs for something like that aren't very efficient.
Yes, all material moves and stress relieves as you machine it. We roughed everything out and left substantial material all over so it could stress relieve. We then did 2 finishing passes.
You guys have got a neat thing going on there, but I would suggest looking hard at your speeds and feeds. You're running way slow, especially on the drilling that is taking place. Hook up with a good tool vendor and look at their recommendations for speeds and feeds or do some research in a machinery's handbook. You could save huge amounts of time on that job.
Your fixture you milled in the first couple of minutes for holding on to side two is being done with way too small of an endmill and could be significantly increased, then simply use the smaller endmill for cleaning up the corners of the last few thousands or so.
There's more to machining than a good machine and a cam program...............Just food for thought.
@rajgd009, We don't know how much power it will produce yet. Our cars generally have 600-700 horsepower. They really don't "need" any more than that. We haven't done anything to reduce the internal stresses except for careful machining practices. We can't wait to see it on the dyno.
how many hours does it take to machine this block?
@Rylander88 Yes, the block is set up to take all original FE parts. We make many of the other parts for the FE. We are thinking about making heads and a billet intake right now, but we have too many other cool projects on the burners right now.
@vipexperformance, Yes, the block could be cast, but castings are generally weak and with a billet block we can remove all the weight in all the little areas we want to. We made the old FE because that is what our customers love. Check out our website.
@apostate001 you can recycle the chips but you don't get much cash for them. It depends on where you take them but right now the price is pretty cheap per pound (20-40 cents). You also have to filter everything since impure chips are worthless.
Professional work but a lot of work and skill needed to accomplice. The block could almost fit inside the biggest metal 3d printers now like ProX 400 (3x500mm).
Did you do a FEA on the aluminum block and a fatigue analysis on the high stress areas or just copy a cast iron design? 1982 Oldsmobile 350 Diesel comes to mind.
Thanks for the explanation.
We designed the block to have a girdle, like F1 blocks. They are much stronger. The block should be much stronger than a cast block. Castings have poor strength at temperature.
OF COURSE you bathe them with milk while you're creating a motor block!
There's always some kind of milk in the creation of something :P
Yep, sometimes you have to use things on hand to get the job done. I've relieved endmills now and again using a harig on a surface grinder. This looks like a cool shop to work at.
Wow... just ... drool..
Questions: Did you CNC build your own 427 FE Heads? If so, which model did you decide to go with? Tunnel, Low, Med or High riser? What kind of fuel system did you decide to go with? Weber, Injected or..
You show how you made seal relief's at the bottom of the sleeve's, what material are the seals made of and how did you determine what gaps to to machine to, given expansion needs and machining tolerance with forged 6061?
Any video of the engine complete as an assembly?
@sixtiesforever1966 We are just not finishing up the dyno on the block. I will post information as soon as we get it. The bottom end is a girdle on this block.
Nice engine block. I like these Haas machines. I would recommend using diamond wheels for relieving endmills instead of CBN. The diamond wheels last a lot longer and cut faster and easier.
What color is that Cobra body behind you in the video. It's a stunning color.
I really enjoyed the video. It's amazing what a CNC mill can do, I've done some machining in my past life and really enjoyed it.
You Tube won't allow links. Type in the search bar "Kirkham Billet Block 2 of 3" and "Kirkham Billet Block 3 of 3" and you will find them. Thanks :)
Nope, drill bits don't cut sideways, those are endmills, and usually chip and then are replaced according to surface finish. Precision depth holes are reamed, which means they take light cuts. This shop which seems to do one-off projects inspects their tools semi-manually, but production lines have lasers and microscope, automatically between each part.
Where do you guys get the block of aluminum before its machined? And could a haas vf9 alone make an engine block and heads? Not including crank and everything else on the lower end and internals.
We would have used diamond, but we had a CBN handy so that is what we used :) In the mean time, we bought some diamond wheels--just in case.
@MightyTriangle Study hard in school. Learn math and English--just don't try to "get by." Work hard. Then your dreams will come true. :)
that was great job man ..... nice work !
Is that little cobra sitting there clad in copper? That is a nice looking ride!
So you must have plates bolted on the sides for a water jacket. Also, what keeps the two sides of the cylinder walls from spreading? The head bolted on?
Yes, we are quite sure the block was forged. We bought it from an aerospace forging house in California that supplies to Boeing.
@eth7889, We send it all back to be recycled. It takes far less energy to melt chips into aluminum than to make aluminum from ore.
@KirkhamMotorsports1: wat is the amount of power it produces and is this used in some racing car engine or a production car. Also r there any heat treatment processes for reducing stress levels after machining done?
No, it is made from solid copper. We have also made them from solid bronze. We have two bronze ones in our shop right now.
you said you would show dyno results. you didn't. that's not acceptable. pretty is not torque. reality is not expensive machine tool toys. where's the dyno results ?
I grew up in small town with 65 HEMI Belvadere; 63 & half 427 Med.Riser 2x4barrel & my 69 Z-28.After FIVE motors I could stay up with 427.LOL.Friend has "California Flash" 68 Dart " Race HEMI " in his collection.Butch Leal came to see his old car.Welded at Restoration shop with high school friend ,Painter & meta-man.English Wheel hard to master!! Love all 60s Hot Rods.
thank you for sharing but vid can be a bit more attracting..
the bottom of the block should have fully skirted mains..using a bottom end girdle stops you from being able to cross bolt the center 3 mains
There are advantages to castings and advantages to forgings. Forgings are stronger and have much better strength at operating temperature. Castings let you make hollow parts (water jackets, etc). We solved the water jacket problem by using wet sleeves. Castings also have serious porosity, core-shift, and inclusion problems.
I know of only one copper Cobra that a fellow I met in Fort Worth had made along with a polished aluminum one. Is this the same car? Copperhead? A friend of mine sculpted and hand engraved a gearshift for it that looks like a copperhead snake, hence the name/
We have made a few copper and bronze cars.
Can I have the 322 pounds of swarf? Delivery charges paid by yourselves, (naturally!)
How many block you guy machine in let's say in one year? Or was this one on off? Just read the article in hot rod magazine about you guys cool stuff!
We haven't made billet heads yet. We are seriously considering it, however. We determined the seal relief by looking at Parker Hannifin's O-ring charts and looking at other sleeved motors. I don't have a video of the motor running...I should get one. We have just been too tied up around here with other cool projects :)
No, but the forging is done for us by an aerospace aluminum forging company that makes parts for Boeing.
Way to open and shut those doors, Dave!
@PixMan107, Indeed those drill bits are very fast...but extremely expensive. We have "through the tool coolant" on the mill (you can see it when we do the deep milling on the mains side). That said, "speed" isn't always paramount in a machining operation. When a part runs all night long on a mill it really doesn't matter if it finishes at 3:00 am or 4:00 am.
that's amazing, I've alway's been a fan of the 302 ford, and always wanted to mill a forged aluminum block and somehow mill a 4 valve head based off a Honda crf unicam design...but now ford has the coyote... Its amazing that japan and other countries used overhead cam multiple valves per cylinder to boost reliability and performance to different applications over the years and now the us automakers are utilizing it.
Impressive piece of machining. You mean 175 something kilos to 29. (psst, the whole world speaks metric except the US) Looks beautiful anyway :)
***** Gabriel you are a bigger horse's ass than the guy whining about metric. lol
***** hmmmmm not much of an argument when you say that what you are used to seems more logical.....stats dont lie.....even in the US media I am noticing a gradual shift to metric say in weather reports for example....imperial does make one familiar with fractions though....I will give you that......I surprise my friends when in a heartbeat I tell them that the next werench size above 5/8 is 11/16 and 21/32 is in between..... weather we like it or not the world will eventually convert to metric because it is simpler even if it is so simple even monkeys can do its math.....in the whole process of making the entire world fool proof they are allowing every one to become a fool and get away with it.
+John Terpack It is better suited for you to express your hight in foot inches much like it is better suited for me to express my hight in centimeters.....that does not change the fact that maybe before you and I are gone we will see the current imperial abandoned slowly.....for example, who now a days expresses their weight in stones besides some of the British......times are changing man which is kinda depressing. ....but in a romantic way if I dare say...
+Martin Adams Only countries that land people on the moon use the Imperial system.
+John Dobbs You guys lost the mars obiter because NASA was using metric and some company called Lockhead a US based company was using imperial units so the launch failed. $125 million down the drain. So no your space program is using metric because they are intelligent enough to see it's a better system, too bad the average american isn't.