Billy being truly a kid at death explains Garrett's statements and actions so much better. It's hard coming off looking good when the vanquished couldn.t shave yet.
Excellent show, thanks to Brandon and MAG for bringing this to light. I think the preponderance of the evidence puts Billy at about 19 when he died (If he died!) in July of 1881. Just to follow up on the live chat discussion about the rifle in the BTK tintype. My best guess is that it is a 20" barrel saddle carbine version, with an overall length of 39". The standard rifle version would have had a 24" barrel and be 43" in length. That is per current production standards, which should be virtually identical to 1870s production. For what it's worth in relation to Billy's height in the tintype as discussed.
I visited the courthouse in Lincoln a week or so ago and of all the things I saw and heard there, I stood in front of a blow-up of the historic picture of Billy and it really changed the way I looked at the man himself. The picture was slightly smaller than life-size but it was weird to come face to face with Henry McCarty. You really got a sense of how small he was in physical stature.
Awesome show Mag and Brandon. I can see Billy being 18 or 19 in the photo. Often thought Joe was the older brother because he supposedly taught Billy how to gamble, so that never made sense to me. Great interview guys, love listening to Brandon's views and information.❤🤠
And what were you doing in the courthouse? Huh Alejandro Morales? I feel like you owe us all an explanation. Nah...I'm just messin' with ya. You're all right.
You guys knocked this one out of the park...Thanks Michael & Brandon, that was a GREAT episode and probably mad more accurate info about the Kid than all of the FABLES that have built from Garrett & Upson's book that was more a money making opportunity for them than anything else..even the "serious researchers" like Noble Burns and others culled the vitals from it and passed them along...When you boil everything we know about Billy down to what can be VERIFIED...about all we know is we think his name was Wm. H. McCarty. Great show Guys, thanks again...shows like this is one of the reasons I'm proud to be part of this ragged bunch! Blessings to Bella, Jake, Toby & Trooper!
Antrim stated in 1915 that they were from New York City, that she had two children, boys, by her first husband. He did not mention any daughter. I had really doubted that the Kid had been to NYC until I read that recently. That about the Kid being born in May of 62 is of much interest, I had not heard that before and have studied the Kid since the 70s. That about the census is a point of interest.
i definitely believe that he could be a leader from what i here he was very intelligent he had some education wich im sure probably more than some of the regulators he grew up livi ng on the streets he practiced using firearms extensively he could escape quite easily and he for sure could survive the wilderness and being of small stature probably made himself bigger thanks Mag like the interviews you do
Sorry for the bad spelling but here it comes: After his capture at stinking springs six months prior to the shooting at fort sumpter he was arrested snd held in Las Vegas while awaiting transfer to Macia jail.??? He was interviews by KH Coogler, he described him nothing mannish about him, young mannerisms, Looking like a schoolboy with “silky fuzz” on his upper lip. What we call today a milk stash that teens call facial hair. 6 months later he was shot and killed and described as having a beard. So either all of the sudden the kid could grow hair on his face, or they shot the wrong person. Plus the milk stash aka silky fuzz shows he was younger than we think. Thanks for the video…!!
According to the book . The Real Billy the Kid, written by Miguel Antonio Otero , Jr . Remember the one that rode the train to Santa Fe with Billy. He stated the kid, and he were the same age as the latter being several months older. Born in 1859. Enjoyed the presentation, though.
People called him "the kid" because he was young and looked young. There is even a hypothesis that he was able to slip his hands out of the handcuffs. He's the most interesting character of the West; how could Lew Wallace meet this guy and go back to writing "Ben Hur"? Billy would have been an incredible subject to analyze.
That was awesome and iit kept bothering that Garrett had actually killed a kid. Also I wonder if his brother Joe hadn't abandoned him would Billy chosen this type of life?, He must of been a desperate kid searching for a way to survive.
I agree that Billy probably didn’t kill 21 men like we originally thought but I disagree about the his age that you guys are claiming because there’s a lot of testimony from people who said that Billy was a young man in his 20s
The fact that Billy’s brother and stepfather both corroborate “New York,” with years of documented census records, completely unrelated to Billy, I can’t see any real reason to believe otherwise.
That's highly possible it makes a lot of sense that he would have been younger and if you can find some stuff from The regulators nobody ever calls him a leader they just say he was very sharp whitted
Henry MC Carthy left Ireland for a better life growing up in the slums of New York to survive as an orphan with no role models in those days being vunerable to alien soicety getting being enticed into crime by anglo irish land owners at that time seems like his friends across the border cared and Loved him for what he was 🇨🇮
I was in Lincoln this year, according to the grave site( close but not exact from what I was told) tungstal was only 25. Father figure? Maybe I’m mistaken. Don’t know.
they will never do dna. for one Billy's grave has been flood multiple times. who knows if they would find his body. plus in hico texas and ft Sumner. the both have museums and make money. if they were to prove that he brushy wasnt billy they lose money. and if he wasnt buried in ft Sumner they would lose money
Even with the distortion of his authentic tintype i always felt he looked younger than 21 and typical of a book to banter up a story and its included persons as you said 21 men for 21 years of his life sounds romantic legend wise .... and as far as his face in that picture he was outside Beaver Smiths saloon he coulda been inside drinking which would given the look of his eyes not to mention if he was being hunted down at that time he wasn't available to clean clothes and a bath thats for sure so could be why his hair looked frayed under his hat and had a look of sleep deprivation mixed with a few Whiskeys
Only few people know it, but: when he killed his first man, Billy was two (& a half). First sexual experience around 5, and Garrett killed him when he was already dead (ts an Old west trick; but that's for another show...)
Come on now! STOP inserting your current mindset into events over 150 years ago! I see the potential for Billy to be younger than 21, it's plausible but to say a young mind is not mature enough for such decision making; that's just ignorant of a modern mindset projecting into the past. Events can occur to force a mind to be mature beyond its years.
@@MankindMediaLLC Typical response from someone who does not understand how to debate or present a counter argument. I am not attacking the content but how it is presented. You can't project a modern way of thinking into studying the past. That is how mistakes are made.
@@David-sk9vv Actually, you can do whatever you want, whenever you want. That's how life works. Your holier than thou attitude might work somewhere else, but not here. Since you weren't around in 1880, you have no idea if the mindset was completely different or exactly the same as now, and as such, you should stop projecting your way of thinking on anyone else. That's the way mistakes are made... I don't waste time debating any more. My life is precious and I never waste it on pointless arguments that change absolutely nothing.
The wanted poster referred to "Billy" as 13 years old, 5 foot 3. FIVE FOOT THREE. He was a little boy. A handsome, charming multi-lingual orphan who could "sing like a bird" play the piano, and dance the Fandango. He was also a crack shot and a fast draw who could ride like the wind. Pretty good stuff for a product of New York City's Irish slum on Rivington Street. He didn't drink, smoke, chew, shave, or swear and showed no interest in girls, although they were interested in him.
Billy being truly a kid at death explains Garrett's statements and actions so much better. It's hard coming off looking good when the vanquished couldn.t shave yet.
That or he clearly shot a Mexican kid llf
I went in the Army at age 17 in 1971, 18 year olds were being sent to Vietnam, many of them were hardly shaving either. 19 is pretty much an adult.
Billy had his faults but he was less corrupt then the Murphy trib
Excellent show, thanks to Brandon and MAG for bringing this to light. I think the preponderance of the evidence puts Billy at about 19 when he died (If he died!) in July of 1881.
Just to follow up on the live chat discussion about the rifle in the BTK tintype. My best guess is that it is a 20" barrel saddle carbine version, with an overall length of 39". The standard rifle version would have had a 24" barrel and be 43" in length. That is per current production standards, which should be virtually identical to 1870s production. For what it's worth in relation to Billy's height in the tintype as discussed.
Think of Audie Murphy and his display of courage in WWII. I'm sure any of those me would follow him through hell or high water.
So are we expected to believe that a what 11/12 year old crossed that desert and survived ? Seems like a stretch to say he’s 15.
New research suggests that Bill The Kid spoke the native Irish Language and was a translator to some Irish immigrants in the US.
nope
I visited the courthouse in Lincoln a week or so ago and of all the things I saw and heard there, I stood in front of a blow-up of the historic picture of Billy and it really changed the way I looked at the man himself. The picture was slightly smaller than life-size but it was weird to come face to face with Henry McCarty. You really got a sense of how small he was in physical stature.
Awesome show Mag and Brandon. I can see Billy being 18 or 19 in the photo. Often thought Joe was the older brother because he supposedly taught Billy how to gamble, so that never made sense to me. Great interview guys, love listening to Brandon's views and information.❤🤠
Another interesting and thought provoking show. Thanks for the quality content MAG and your excellent guest Brandon.
Thanks, MAG, some great information!
Pat Garrett knew exactly how old billy was….. I truly believe that
Great Show! Thanks Mag & Brandon
I met Scott Smith in Lincoln last summer in the courthouse. Awesome gentlemen, highly knowledgeable about Lincoln along with Ft Stanton.
And what were you doing in the courthouse? Huh Alejandro Morales? I feel like you owe us all an explanation. Nah...I'm just messin' with ya. You're all right.
You guys rocked it. Great interview 👍
I have always maintained that the Kid was born in 1861 or 1862 and cited some of the sources in Antrim Is My Stepfather's Name.
Brilliant show! Can't wait for the next one!!!🐎
You guys knocked this one out of the park...Thanks Michael & Brandon, that was a GREAT episode and probably mad more accurate info about the Kid than all of the FABLES that have built from Garrett & Upson's book that was more a money making opportunity for them than anything else..even the "serious researchers" like Noble Burns and others culled the vitals from it and passed them along...When you boil everything we know about Billy down to what can be VERIFIED...about all we know is we think his name was Wm. H. McCarty. Great show Guys, thanks again...shows like this is one of the reasons I'm proud to be part of this ragged bunch! Blessings to Bella, Jake, Toby & Trooper!
Looking forward to this one, can't wait.
Another great show Michael! Cheers
Great pod !! I remember another pod when you intervjud a man ho says that BTK was only 15-16 years old when he killed Brady.
Great interview! Thank you. 🤠
Really cool interview , so interesting, thank you guys
Very interesting! Great interview Michael!!!
Antrim stated in 1915 that they were from New York City, that she had two children, boys, by her first husband. He did not mention any daughter. I had really doubted that the Kid had been to NYC until I read that recently. That about the Kid being born in May of 62 is of much interest, I had not heard that before and have studied the Kid since the 70s. That about the census is a point of interest.
Makes sense. Billy's story is for sure not cast in stone. Gomber is a wealth of information in my opinion. Grazie per il video paisan. Salut!
i definitely believe that he could be a leader from what i here he was very intelligent he had some education wich im sure probably more than some of the regulators he grew up livi ng on the streets he practiced using firearms extensively he could escape quite easily and he for sure could survive the wilderness and being of small stature probably made himself bigger thanks Mag like the interviews you do
Sorry for the bad spelling but here it comes:
After his capture at stinking springs six months prior to the shooting at fort sumpter he was arrested snd held in Las Vegas while awaiting transfer to Macia jail.??? He was interviews by KH Coogler, he described him nothing mannish about him, young mannerisms, Looking like a schoolboy with “silky fuzz” on his upper lip. What we call today a milk stash that teens call facial hair.
6 months later he was shot and killed and described as having a beard. So either all of the sudden the kid could grow hair on his face, or they shot the wrong person. Plus the milk stash aka silky fuzz shows he was younger than we think. Thanks for the video…!!
Totally believable that he was 19.
According to the book . The Real Billy the Kid, written by Miguel Antonio Otero , Jr . Remember the one that rode the train to Santa Fe with Billy. He stated the kid, and he were the same age as the latter being several months older. Born in 1859. Enjoyed the presentation, though.
Not counting Mexicans and China men.
People called him "the kid" because he was young and looked young. There is even a hypothesis that he was able to slip his hands out of the handcuffs. He's the most interesting character of the West; how could Lew Wallace meet this guy and go back to writing "Ben Hur"? Billy would have been an incredible subject to analyze.
Truth is no one really has a clue... absolutely no idea...we just pretend to know
That was awesome and iit kept bothering that Garrett had actually killed a kid. Also I wonder if his brother Joe hadn't abandoned him would Billy chosen this type of life?, He must of been a desperate kid searching for a way to survive.
Mag love to Bella hope she's doing better!💞
Fantastic Thanks for the upload 👏👍
I agree that Billy probably didn’t kill 21 men like we originally thought but I disagree about the his age that you guys are claiming because there’s a lot of testimony from people who said that Billy was a young man in his 20s
The fact that Billy’s brother and stepfather both corroborate “New York,” with years of documented census records, completely unrelated to Billy, I can’t see any real reason to believe otherwise.
Sorry got the dates wrong
That's highly possible it makes a lot of sense that he would have been younger and if you can find some stuff from The regulators nobody ever calls him a leader they just say he was very sharp whitted
Good interview very interesting thank you
Amazing, keep up the good work.
Henry MC Carthy left Ireland for a better life growing up in the slums of New York to survive as an orphan with no role models in those days being vunerable to alien soicety getting being enticed into crime by anglo irish land owners at that time seems like his friends across the border cared and Loved him for what he was 🇨🇮
I was in Lincoln this year, according to the grave site( close but not exact from what I was told) tungstal was only 25. Father figure? Maybe I’m mistaken. Don’t know.
I had heard this. I’m banking on some DNA direction.
they will never do dna. for one Billy's grave has been flood multiple times. who knows if they would find his body. plus in hico texas and ft Sumner. the both have museums and make money. if they were to prove that he brushy wasnt billy they lose money. and if he wasnt buried in ft Sumner they would lose money
His name is Billy the.......
What age did the kid tell them he was when he was arrested he Springs?
I don't recall ever seeing that question asked?
Great stuff
We will probably never know the real deal
John miller probably was billy
No one really knows Billy's actual birthdate...
Even with the distortion of his authentic tintype i always felt he looked younger than 21 and typical of a book to banter up a story and its included persons as you said 21 men for 21 years of his life sounds romantic legend wise .... and as far as his face in that picture he was outside Beaver Smiths saloon he coulda been inside drinking which would given the look of his eyes not to mention if he was being hunted down at that time he wasn't available to clean clothes and a bath thats for sure so could be why his hair looked frayed under his hat and had a look of sleep deprivation mixed with a few Whiskeys
This was so good!!!!!
Lol they lied about his age so nobody thought he was a kid? Chose a pretty dumb nickname if that's the case.
Mexicans and Indians???
Not counted?? As...
Only few people know it, but: when he killed his first man, Billy was two (& a half). First sexual experience around 5, and Garrett killed him when he was already dead (ts an Old west trick; but that's for another show...)
Come on now! STOP inserting your current mindset into events over 150 years ago!
I see the potential for Billy to be younger than 21, it's plausible but to say a young mind is not mature enough for such decision making; that's just ignorant of a modern mindset projecting into the past.
Events can occur to force a mind to be mature beyond its years.
Get over yourself. Your opinion is no more valid than anyone else's around here.
@@MankindMediaLLC Typical response from someone who does not understand how to debate or present a counter argument. I am not attacking the content but how it is presented.
You can't project a modern way of thinking into studying the past. That is how mistakes are made.
@@David-sk9vv Actually, you can do whatever you want, whenever you want. That's how life works. Your holier than thou attitude might work somewhere else, but not here. Since you weren't around in 1880, you have no idea if the mindset was completely different or exactly the same as now, and as such, you should stop projecting your way of thinking on anyone else. That's the way mistakes are made... I don't waste time debating any more. My life is precious and I never waste it on pointless arguments that change absolutely nothing.
Blah! Blah! Blah! Just another way for someone to sell more books.
I wouldn't believe for one second that he was 12 years old. I believe for this to be fable.
The wanted poster referred to "Billy" as 13 years old, 5 foot 3. FIVE FOOT THREE. He was a little boy. A handsome, charming multi-lingual orphan who could "sing like a bird" play the piano, and dance the Fandango. He was also a crack shot and a fast draw who could ride like the wind. Pretty good stuff for a product of New York City's Irish slum on Rivington Street. He didn't drink, smoke, chew, shave, or swear and showed no interest in girls, although they were interested in him.