All about phono cartridge loading
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- Опубликовано: 18 апр 2019
- Phono cartridges demand proper loading to sound right but what does that actually mean? How do you find the proper load impedance and what happens when it's wrong? Have a question you want to ask Paul? www.psaudio.com/ask-paul/
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Hi Paul. Nuclear power plants heat water to make steam to turn impellers, too.
But i wanted to say that too, but you beat me to it.
@@blauwzakjecrack Me too.
@@josephgrimison4419 i feel like i understand you completely!
This statement of his fits perfectly with the rest of the video. Completely stupid.
Hey Paul, are you ever going to fillm a new outro in your new building?
Thank you. Very informative.
It's amazing just how hard it is to find a video on how to use a phono lre amp as to match it with different types of cartridges. I thought i had a winner here. But...
Nuclear power plants also boil water and spin a turbine.
Unless it’s from a photovoltaic plant, all our electricity is generated by the method you described.
Well said Paul.
He wasn’t being literal Paul he just didn’t want a scientific explainatiion
I asked you that question six months ago glad it finally got answered
Hey Benjy I was using a vintage 1950’s era valve preamp with a built in phono stage that had a 100 k ohm loading it sounded ok but when I added resistors to each input to bring the impedance down to about 48k, I use a MMC, it was so much better!
Thanks Paul.
Mr Mcgowan
This was an exceptional explanation of the cartridge loading . I have never fully understood the effects of the relationship as you brilliantly described here. Thank You very much
Thank you Paul...I think I actually followed most of that!
I just got a new TT with an Ortofon Quintet Red MC cartridge and all it says is to use >20 ohms (greater than 20 I assume)..so I set my phono preamp to 100 since that seems to be the common setting for MCs. The other settings are 30, 50, 75, 100, 230, 300, 1k, and 47k...I may go down to 30 and see if the top end is rounded off and mellowed. Does this have any affect on the bass or is it just the treble or upper midrange? Thanks again anyway for this video.
Frank
I have not seen the video, but @30ohm you are asking the cartridge to generate more electricity, than at 50, 100, 200..., so it will slow down the response and muddy things throughout the entire range....
But you didn't explain about capacitance? Has a bearing on DB output and it's frequency range, the higher capacitance the higher DB output but at a lower frequency and vice versa and it's related roloff
One last point .. and this applies more to MM cartridges... is loading capacitance .. some high quality phono stages incorporate a rotary switch which places various load capacitor networks to trim the frequency response and damping . Ideally ALL phono stages should be part of the turntable and well shielded ..
That was something i always wanted someone to explain it this way to me too :-D cheers :-D
Rocks get hot, water boils, steam spins a turbine. Atomic power in a nut shell.
There was no discussion of the associated capacitance of the cable and the input stage, which contributes to the input impedance and thus the frequency response.
Maybe you could address it over on your channel?
Haha I had a similar question couple of weeks ago, and I used to live in Singapore.
Thank you
One of several concepts that, the more you try to explain it,
the more information caught up in its own terminology you have to drag in,
which only makes the whole prospect more difficult and confusing.
Suffice it to say that the impedance and capacitance of the entire circuit
from the cartridge to the first active stage will significantly affect the sound.
Yes and he failed completely in his attempt.
Isn't it putting your phono cartridge in your turntable? Also, now that you mentioned it, which is better a moving magnet cartridge or moving coil cartridge. Can you retrofit one with the other in a decent turntable? Not a high dollar turntable, but a middle of the road Tavel from the 80's that still works in every other way. In my case a Kenwood turntable with speed control and tracking control. My other turntable was a linear tracking upright turntable made by Mitsubishi, the makers of that fine piece of equipment used during WWII, known as the Japanese Zero! My turntable do that design was put into my in-laws attic when we met and I moved into her folks house so she could care for them well over 20 yrs ago. All the rubber components of that turntable melted in the intense heat we suffer thru in AZ and I had to go to a backup turntable. So, can I run both types of styluses in my current turntable?
Hi Ken.
It's been a long time since you asked this question, you have probably found an answer by now, but I figure others reading your question may not.
It all depends upon the quality, not only of your turntable and arm, but also the quality of your phono stage. For example.
I have four turntables, yes, I know that's obsessive, but I have an understanding wife. In order of acquisition, they are.
AR Legend/Rega BB300 with - AT-OC3 moving coil fitted.
Alphason Sonata/HRS100mcs with - AT-OC7 moving coil fitted.
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference/SME3009S2i with - 2M Black moving magnet fitted.
Michell Gyrodec/HRS100mcs with - AT-OC7 moving coil fitted.
You will notice only the Transcriptor has a moving magnet fitted. This is because, in my experience, the SME arm is not particularly well suited to MC cartridges, unless of a particular vintage. I have tried one of the AT-OC7 MC's in the SME, but the 2M Black is simply a much better match for the arms capabilities.
Of course, the RB300, a more modern design, allows the use of a moving coil. The Alphason and the Michell, if I'm to get the best from them, pretty much demand a MC cartridge as they are more than capable of revealing the extra information a good MC can provide.
Basically, not knowing which model you have or the condition of the arm, I would say, a decent MM would better suit your Kenwood than an expensive MC.
The task of your phono stage is made more taxing when fed by an MC cartridge, most MC cartridges have a lower output than MM's, and low output MC's substantially so. A noisy insensitive cheap phono stage will also not allow a MC to flourish.
Remember, any cartridge you fit should be of the correct compliance to best suit your arm, this is a question of matching the arms effective mass, to the 'springiness' of the cantilever's suspension., a totally different can of worms :).
Lots of videos on YT about that, which will explain how that works better than I can in a few sentences.
All the best.
Exactly and while MOST MM cart manufacturers say 47K as the "standard", it appears not to always be so as some carts do best if you move it a bit off of the standard 47K Ohms and some carts, like the now ex M98xE cartridge from SHURE did that too, 47K Ohms being recommended but by doing so, you are now hearing a rather soft top end as by that point, the treble barely hits 12K before dropping like a rock to 20K, so to fix that, raise it up about 53K or so, but to keep the hump in the brilliance band from rising as well, increase the capacitance if you can to flatten that out and when done right, you can extend the treble to about 15K and the roll off is not nearly as severe to 20K, according to one video I think it was I saw 2-3 years ago now.
My Muffsy PP4 phono stage, a kit rather has 15 steps for impedance, 17K to 150K I believe is the range, it's close in any case but has a provision for adding capacitors in the input stage, or do as I did, add some straight pin headers to add capacitance if you need to and just as easily remove them when you don't need them. Also, Moving Iron carts like the Grado prestige series does not require any capacitance as they are unaffected by it, or so I have read anyway. I run a Grado prestige Green 1 into the Muffsy PP4 which outputs to a NAD 7240PE receiver and out to some vintage ADS L810 speakers and the sound out of my turntable, despite it being a budget Kenwood from the mid 80's is really, really good for what it is. If I didn't have the Muffsy and the Grado and simply used the original stock cart or a similar budget model, it's have sounded middling at best.
Right now, I'm playing the Grado at the standard 47K but may put it back to 53K, we'll see and it's easily done via DIP switches.
But to do this, need to consider one, your table, your phono stage (and if it even HAS any loading options) and the rest of the system downstream of it to do this right to get the sound you like (with less treble or a bit more treble) in relation to your room as some rooms may reduce the treble or others may over emphasize the same treble if the room is too live.
but in general, MM carts need impedance, but also some capacitance for some models. a Moving Coil cart typically needs capacitance, but apparently, some may need impedance adjusting too.
@iamspyvspy Nope. My phono stage has impedance for the MM only stage only and with the option for capacitance if you need it. You can add a head amp for a MC cartridge.
Impedance will affect the treble response of your MM cart and some MM carts need quite a bit of capacitance, others, not so much. a MC apparently needs capacitance loading but also appear to need impedance too. However, most phono stage provide impedance for MM, but no capacitance and many MC stages seem to do the opposite, only the well designed units provide both for both types of carts.
Nuclear power plants also generate steam that turns a turbine that turns a generator.
In loading cartridges shunt capacitance can matter also.
"Nuclear power plants also generate steam..."
Not in Australia unfortunately. We get windmills that kill wedgetail eagles and bats instead.
@@jonathansturm4163 I was relatively unconcerned about nuclear power plants until Fukushima. I even worked on one once that was cancelled. I chalked up Chernobyl to stupidity. But I never expected it from Japan at such a monumental level. My opinion now is that all nuclear power plants in the United States should be shut down and decommissioned. They're at the end of their usable lives anyway. While the risk is small the consequences can be devastating. Fukushima appears to be an extinction level event and there is no known way to even slow it down let alone stop it.
@@markfischer3626 Windmills are certainly an extinction-level event for Tasmania's wedgetail eagles. I find that quite unutterably sad. And unnecessary given that windmills tend to generate electricity when it's least needed.
Mark Fischer .
I had own once a Clearaudio solution like that one. I used with a rega rb600. Great combo that sounded great. Not far from my actual vinyl setup that is far more expensive.
Well even nuclear power plants boil water which turn steam turbines which turns a generator which works by the same electromagnetic principles
One of the most efficient ways of converting kinetic energy into electricity, thus it's still used everywhere
I'm a bit confused by the high frequencies being what is affected the most. I have a fair bit of experience with audio equipment from the 50s and 60s and ceramic phono cartridges sound very 'tinny,' with little low end, unless they are loaded with several megaohms of impedance.
Also, there is one turntable I switched out the faulty cables with silver coated copper cables which made the supplied cartridge have excessive treble that was fixed by w\switching the cartridge. I'd think the silver coated copper wire would lower the overall impedance. Would this wire be part of the input impedance since it is pre-amplifier?
Ceramic cartridges have a different frequency response curve to magnetic cartridges. They can be made to approximate the RIAA curve better by resistive loading, but generally perform at their best with a dedicated preamp designed to send the output to a conventional phono input. According to my friend who's into vintage gear. I left my Decca Deram cartridge behind ever so long ago when I acquired my Decca ƒƒss MM.
@@spahr001 The difference in impedance with silver coated versus plain copper would be negligible. This is what you need:
www.eeweb.com/extreme-circuits/preamp-stage-for-ceramic-phono-cartridge-or-violin-pickups
@@jonathansturm4163 The RIAA curve is built into the recording on the record 'Resistive loading' is a way to bring the output of a ceramic cartridge down to that which is usable by a phono input. My preferred method is to provide a high impedance input which allows for a RIAA like compensation coming directly from the cartridge into the line input. The RIAA curve estimation, I believe, is due to bass notes causing a greater bending of the ceramic piece thus leading to greater voltage (or current?) generation vs. treble.
@My Name Although ceramic cartridges work via bending of a ceramic wafer which generates electrical signal via amplitude of the bend (vs change in velocity in a coil) the low pass filter explanation seems to make sense. I'll look closer at your link when I have some time; Thank you.
Why do you mention Ben every time you open these videos?
Electromotive force rules 🤘🏽 gravity is weak comparatively 😃
It was H. C. Ørsted who discovered electromagnetism !
As a Ham radio operator, I need to match the impedance of my transmitter output to the antenna. If the 50 ohm output of the amp does not “see” a 50 ohm load from the antenna, it limits the power transfer from the amp to antenna. A “match” is the most efficient way to get radio frequency waves in the air.
Our concerns as audiophiles are different to those of ham radio operators. As a general rule, the _maximum_ power transfer from an active device like an amplifier or antenna driver to an external device occurs when the impedance of the external device matches that of the source. The _optimum_ power is 50% of the total power when the impedance of the amplifier is matched to that of the speaker. Improper impedance matching can lead to excessive power use, distortion, and noise problems. The most serious problems occur when the impedance of the load is too low, requiring too much power from the active device to drive the load at acceptable levels. On the other hand, the prime consideration for an audio reproduction circuit is high fidelity reproduction of the signal, and that does not require optimum power transfer.
Edit: Also a ham radio operator is working with a fixed frequency and so there is a single impedance. Audio devices' impedance varies with frequency so we refer to the _nominal_ impedance. My loudspeakers have a nominal impedance of 6 ohms, but this varies across the frequency spectrum between ~4 and 8 ohms.
Jonathan Sturm There’s always gotta be that one guy.....
I posted merely to illustrate impedance matching, generally. One thing you got wrong, Ham radio operators use a vastly larger frequency spectrum than audio and we use the same antenna impedance for all, 50 ohms. 1.7 Kilohertz all the way to 50 gigahertz and up.
@@TexasScout Thanks for the correction. I never became a ham; I was only ever a SWL. Fifty gigahertz! Wow!
@@jonathansturm4163 Two different things. Radio antenna leads are transmission lines and need matching of input, cable and output impedance to avoid reflections that distort the signal and use up power. Transmission line effects don't become into play for audio frequencies until you are around 100+m in length. Used to be transmission line effects could be ignored unless you were working in radio, or power lines. But these days, with high speed digital signaling transmission line effects have to be taken into account in paths 1-2 mm long inside chips, and in network cabling (CAN) in cars.
@My Name It was my understanding that the output impedance of Class D was determined by the impedance of the low pass filter on the output. We had very low output impedance Class AB amps already back in the 1970s thus rendering damping factor somewhat of a non-issue. The Class D issue came as a surprise.
Whatever, Paul's sales staff agreed that the Sprout100 wasn't a good solution for my use case and I have determined to replace my ailing Rotel amp with an RA1592. Since the old Rotel's power amplifier is working fine (nominally 100W/channel) I'll use that to drive the mid/tweeter and the new 200W/channel amp to supply the bass drivers. It will be interesting to compare the performance difference (if any) betwixt the Schiit DAC I currently use and that in the RA1592.
I have the best results whit mc elements with 47k
Bla bla bla.. WTF?!