The UK has a considerably lower percentage of rail freight than the continent. Then again, the UK has the second-busiest railway network in Europe. Especially around London, you'll be hard-pressed to squeeze another train in. This could be alleviated with extra tracks. Maybe a dedicated, high-speed passenger line to Manchester and beyond.
I don't think that would be feasible. What about the dozen or so bats that might live within a couple of miles of such a hypothetical line? The costs to protect them would be incredible, possibly as high as £100m!
@@ricequackers The cost would be not so much because of the bats, but more because of the tunnel that would have to be dug, in order not to spoil the view from the country houses of the friends of the government at the time.
@@SeverityOne The last government wanted to protect views, the current one bats, the next one maybe something else altogether. The end result is the same, the cost of development being 3x what it is in Spain or Italy
As a lad in the 1960s I used to be a train spotter, not really collecting numbers as such, but simply liked to observe and photograph them. I loved the widened lines in particular and was always curious about the subterranean goods depot at Smithfield. On one day out during which I had bought a twin cover for five bob, I must have gone to Kings Cross on the Piccadily line then changed on to the circle towards Paddington. I was waiting on the platform when I heard a rumbling noise of an approaching train, it didn't sound like the normal surface stock, it was indeed a class 08 shunter with some vans, I have no idea where it went nor where it had come from Had it come over the thames through snow hill and where was it going to. On another interesting not at Kings Cross two tunnels on either side of the station served to enter the widened lines, on the east side the trains stopped at York Way. Whilst the tunnel dropped down to head east there was a Junction that split and headed west and joined the Met, I understand it closed a few years after opening in 1868. Here is a video that shows where there is a Junction, slip to 2 minsx54 secs and you can see the split in the tunnel ruclips.net/video/2PI8Ht7JJY4/видео.htmlsi=cTjG4iPnTt9BRbam This could be a new topic for a video.
God this really is *such* an of its time proposal. You were spot on, it would be ludicrous today, given how much priorities have shifted and how the lines it planned to use/work alongside have changed too. I don't think anyone in the 1940s could have foreseen the East London Line becoming what it has - a major north-south link in the east that is part of a wider network of successful commuter lines... let alone the Docklands' own railway system partially becoming part of a light rail system to serve a completely different area, or the Snow Hill Tunnel being the heart of one of the busiest commuter rail systems in the country. Great video!
@@mrb.5610 That would probably be done when the cargo is loaded, not when it gets to the tunnel or anything. Also there is already a lot of freight going through the Chunnel, I belive more freight trains than passenger trains
Wouldn't it be easier to just have through-freight go around London rather than digging a massive infrastructure project under the city? Especially considering freight is kept off HS1 up until the tunnel itself
I would love to replace several lanes of motorways with rail routes. They already go to the same places, and are built with gentle curves. Considering most logistics companies have central primary depots that served several industries at once, such as Spalding, and then a handful of secondary Regional Distribution Centres, such as Brimsdown, it's insane to me that we put all of those lorries on the road when a single train could serve them all at once and not even have to think about traffic.
Considering that the first tracked routes were for hauling material out of mines, I'd argue that, for an extremely long time, all underground rail services were for freight. Also, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that it was proposed that we should've had an Underground freight service before we had a ring railway. If anybody at TfL can tell me why it takes over an hour to get from Enfield to Barnet, two neighbouring London boroughs which aren't radially linked, by bus, or two hours if there's even a hint of traffic, then please do. We could've had trams, you know. Lovely, exciting, sleek trams, with segregated routes and no traffic. Now we can't even have _bus stops_ that aren't hindered by cars, let alone bus lanes.
Thanks Jago. I've always been fascinated by the freight train running. As a child, I'd spot freight trains running along the Barking - Woodgrange Park stretch of what is now the Suffragette Line of the Overground network, running through Barking Station, and very occasionally in west London in the Willesden Junction area, and along the western stretch of what's now the Mildmay Line of the Overground network, at West Brompton. I guess, I'll always be curious about where the freight starts and finishes, as this is not on any publicly-accessible rail maps.
IIRC in the 1990s there was a private proposal to reopen the Great Central Railway, at least in part, and connect it to the Channel Tunnel via a tunnel under London. Fearing that it would not receive sufficient private sector support the government of the day killed the proposal before birth. Another "might have been" to explore perhaps.😢
It's surprising how much freight fits in around the commuter traffic on London rail lines - the North London Line + Goblin, West London Line (or whatever it's called now), the west-east route through South London and also the line from Clapham Junction up to Kew. I don't know about other people, but I like a bit of freight, makes a change plus it's noisier and more fun.
A while back 'for some good reason at the time' I read a file at The National Archives on the North London Line when the Beeching Cuts were being proposed in which it was said effectively *You absolutely cannot close down the NLL* - if you look at the maps we have provided you will see that freight trains will have to take a very scenic route to go between 'east of London' and 'west of London' routes... [summarising]
It's still called the Goblin, don't worry. The fact you've forgotten whatever TfL failed to change it to shows what a waste of money it was. Same with the Lea Valley Line.
Clapham Junction to Kew? Do you mean Brentford or the line through Richmond, as the only line through Kew is the District and whatever the North London line's called now. I've never seen a goods train on that in Kew. I see them going through North Sheen though.
@@paulqueripel3493 Freight runs regularly via Clapham Jn past me in Chiswick to Kew Bridge (that's the key point!), then takes the freight-only line north to Willesden/Cricklewood
What we tend to forget, is that until the 1960's, a large percentage of rail freight was coal. In London this was a major problem, so the power stations at Battersea, Lotts Rd and Fulham were built alongside the Thames, allowing coal deliveries via barges.
I read somewhere that in the 1920's the Midland Railway alone delivered 40,000 tons of coal to London daily.Then there was that delivered by the Great Northern, the LNWR etc. Coal was then viewed as essential for human life!
@@MrDavil43 I am sure that was true back in the 1920's. On top of the industrial and commercial use, by tea time, there was smoke belching out of around 7 million house chimneys.
This actually was sort of a thing in Buenos Aires, there's a tunnel that goes under the Line A called 1912 and it was mainly used as a freight tunnel until very recently, this tunnel was operated by the Sarmiento Line. It also saw very shyly some passenger use, although it was not adequate for this kind of service. And, i almost forget, Line B had a freight service going to the Mercado de Abasto, this tunnel was operative until 1952. Also it worked under the Federico Lacroze Railway Company (which is now the Urquiza line), this company also built Line B.
There is a special Underground train. It’s yellow and used for maintenance. It’s quite rare to see it, but one evening it came through Russell Square station, with track ballast in some goods carriages.
Great video Jago. I did briefly think it was going to be about the Crewe freight semi underground lines. Then I thought no, can't be a Jago video then! Interesting to see what was planned for London though back then. Thanks.
Movements between the big London freight yards were often handled by huge Maunsell W class tank engines. When their work dried up, some of them got a second career banking trains up the steep climb from Exeter St Davids to Exeter Central. None left, sadly.
A neatly packaged video. Signed, sealed, stamped and delivered with the usual poise and aplomb. Somebody did suggest a rail route to carry freight which was either under or over or next to the M25. Perhaps believing that the channel tunnel would provide opportunities for international goods business.
how many fearful speculative stories about the safety of the tunnels would there be in the alternative timeline where there is a railway under one of the country's busiest motorways and cars continue to get heavier
A fascinating documentary in the "if only - WHAT?!?!?" category. It was also wonderful to see, at 1:54 and 4:24, the station at Medstead & Four Marks on the Watercress Line in Hampshire (which I spent four years restoring between 1981 and 1985). It still looks good today, 40 years on from the re-opening in 1983.
I was standing at Swanley station watching your video this evening and a freight train went past on the opposite platform. I was then very surprised only a few moments later to see possibly the exact same wagons featured on your video (at 05:00).
A steam hauled coal train ran through Leytonstone at 4p.m. most week days, on route to Ongar I think. It ran until at least the late 'fifties. I'd see it, or sometimes just it's exhaust blasting above the station, as I came home from school. It was always going like the clappers.... Thanks and blessings.
You are likely to encounter some pretty unusual proposals if you hang around railway stations Jago, especially if you spend too much time near Kings Cross.
A couple of thoughts on this, firstly, how useful these tunnels would have been now if they had been built then. Secondly and more important now is the strain that sharing the overground tracks with freight is becoming. Both passengers and freight traffic is increasing and both get in the way of the other. Manchesters mayor has said he would like to get rid of the freight from what will be his tracks in the future (good luck with that). My solution would be for TfL to pay towards a freight bypass from the East coast ports across to the mainline routes around London with no or very limited stops in between. This would free up lots of capacity and allow alterations that would both benefit Londoners and the hauliers.
I think we need an freight line (the size of channel tunnel LeShuttle trains) that goes from Kent to Essex with a tunnel crossing under the river, so that we can take some of the road vehicles that are dumped onto roads South East of London and dump them onto roads North East of London instead. It also would be good to be able to tie freight trains coming through the Eurotunnel directly into the freight network of trains coming out of Tilbury docks. And the line should be tied into the passenger railways of Kent and Essex to encourage people to take trains instead of driving over the M25 crossing.
"Type three freight locomotive"? Strangest euphemism I've ever heard! Vaguely reminds me of "Has the train arrived in Paddington yet?"..." No I'm afraid it's in Colchester - ouch!"
There's a lot to be said for a cross London freight only line. Would boost freight and free up existing routes. Any other route would just end up as another passenger route and push freight out.
Get politicians involved and mission creep is as inevitable as going over budget. Beginning with 'provision as a diversionary route' ("best use of taxpayers' money, don'cha know") *of course* it'll end up as a passenger line. The only real question is "will the Portishead Branch be reopened by he time that happens"?
The problem with the Liverpool St to Shoreditch spur was it was built the wrong way round, it was truly inconvenient to run a train into the platform then wind an engine to come along and pull it through onto southern metals and because of the way things were that was as far as the eastern loco could go so the consist needed to wait for a southern loco to come fetch it blocking the platform for passengers again. BR did look at trying to pull a loop in from the goods station into Shoreditch but the goods station was so tight up against the line it was impossible and sooner or later the little spur was doomed. Much to the relief of places like Southend who were hurt when east London folk took the excursion to Margate or Brighton, Margate and Brighton used to south Londoners were quite happy them dirty unwashed lot from across the water no longer turned up especially when the West Ham steel workers got into the same pubs as Millwall dockers there was quite a few scraps which ruined the day for everyone... After the success of Snow Hill, BR did briefly turn its eye at the little bit of rail thinking how useful a SR to ER link would be without having to run all the way up to Willesden then along the North London Line onto ER metals, Ford who operated a fairly frequent train from Sheppey to Dagenham were quite keen to cut times down but BR said nyetski matey.
An east-west freight line wouldn’t be a bad idea. The amount of container traffic coming out of the new docks further out to Essex is constrained heavily by the capacity of the North London Line. Similar can be said for the lines out to Felixstowe and to Southampton. GBs population density being heavily weighted towards the South East means it makes sense for the majority of ports to be there. But in order to efficiently serve the entire population, our logistics networks are centred on the East Midlands. This means that the ports in the south east have to distribute their goods through major urban areas, and Tilbury may actually be the worst site possible as far as the rail network is concerned. It’s a similar argument to expansion of Gatwick, or building a new airport in the Thames estuary. Heathrow is the main airport for the entirety of the UK, and while its public transport links from anywhere outside the M25 aren’t great, for most of us, there is no need to travel across London to reach it. The same cannot be said for Gatwick or Maplin Sands. In fact, I would suggest the one of the biggest losses of HS2 is that not having a railway station directly at Heathrow means it will always struggle to replace domestic flights where LHR is a connection (as it is regularly for those of us in central Scotland).
Having travelled all over the USA , in the 1970's ( on many freight trains 😝 ) ... I find this amusing ... most of their tunnels can accept 2 tall container wagons ( " cars "😝 ) .. God bless America 🇺🇸 ............... DAVE™🛑
Good choice of a Class 76 loco there Jago, given that 1500 VDC OHL may well at that time been a preferred traction method. The relatively low voltage wouldn't have needed too much overhead clearance, and the technology was already in production with the LNER.
And it was still before the formation of the 25 kV Consortium, I believe, so nobody was there to really put pressure on BR to go for a different standard altogether, the one for which both the British industry and the railway were unready.
@F1ghteR41 Indeed. I believe the LMS were already experimenting with 25 KVAC on the Lancaster, Morecambe and Heysham line, or at least tinkering with the 6.6 KVAC 25 Hz equipment. I understand it was converted to 50 Hz in the early 50s, but I would agree it's unlikely it would have been in serious contention for this project.
@ It surely played no significant part in the overall turn to the 25 kV AC standard, seeing as it was achieved so late (see the WCML electrification timetable). Class 80 was achieved by turning a gas turbine locomotive into electric one (a change for the better in those circumstances, I would say) with at least some Swiss electrical components. Classes 81-85 were still built with dual standard (25/6.25 kV AC) prime movers, moreover, class 85 has co-developed with the French, and 86 was really two different engines depending on the make, because BR was fickle lke that (and dieselization debacle taught them nothing), and still experienced problems into the late '60s. So I'm not sure whether anything was learned on the locomotive side as well. I don't think that rectifying 1.5 kV DC power delivery issues would've taken 4 years, and in any case it could be applied as is to subruban and less freight-heavy lines, with the motive power all there already, as you've said. Seeing as both Soviet Union and Italy continued merrily with their 3 kV DC systems, with USSR significantly expanding theirs in the early '50s, and taking into account the disastrous dieselization and retention of steam haulage until the late '60s, I'm really failing to see any short-term or mid-term benefits the desire to switch to 25 kV AC brought to Britain. Now, 3 kV DC was a better system, yes, and by 1964 Channel tunnel plans seemingly vindicated the 25 kV standard, but as we know, nothing came of it until the '80s, and in any event, until HS1 locomotives were still bi-modal, but running on even less impressive 750 V DC into London, so it wasn't much of a win for the AC system at all.
@ It surely played no significant part in the overall turn to the 25 kV AC standard, seeing as it was achieved so late (see the WCML electrification timetable). Class 80 was achieved by turning a gas turbine locomotive into electric one (a change for the better in those circumstances, I would say) with at least some Swiss electrical components. Classes 81-85 were still built with dual standard (25/6.25 kV AC) prime movers, moreover, class 85 has co-developed with the French, and 86 was really two different engines depending on the make, because BR was fickle lke that (and dieselization debacle taught them nothing), and still experienced problems into the late '60s. So I'm not sure whether anything was learned on the locomotive side as well. I don't think that rectifying 1.5 kV DC power delivery issues would've taken 4 years, and in any case it could be applied as is to subruban and less freight-heavy lines, with the motive power all there already, as you've said. Seeing as both Soviet Union and Italy continued merrily with their 3 kV DC systems, with USSR significantly expanding theirs in the early '50s, and taking into account the disastrous dieselization and retention of steam haulage until the late '60s, I'm really failing to see any short-term or mid-term benefits the desire to switch to 25 kV AC brought to Britain. Now, 3 kV DC was a better system, yes, and by 1964 Channel tunnel plans seemingly vindicated the 25 kV standard, but as we know, nothing came of it until the '80s, and in any event, until HS1 locomotives were still bi-modal, but running on even less impressive 750 V DC into London, so it wasn't much of a win for the AC system at all.
Still, the amount of goods that need to come into the metropolis that is London, especially with the rise of online shopping and next day delivery, might justify having some underground freight rail... Maybe like the post office tube?
Is freight regularly travelling through the Channel Tunnel yet, on internationally suitable locos hauling on-purpose built consists,and not just trucks sitting on Le Shuttle?
New built full-sized freight tunnels & stations underneath London? (yeah, using old infra as much as possible, but still). Gonna have to say No to that, true. A modern version of the postal tube? Maybe sized for EU pallets? Trains run by computers, automatic on/offloading, connected to loading stations at major postal facilities, but also open for shared use by DHL, UPS, etc. That could be a thing.
Thanks again for an interesting video. I have a copy of said plan that will be repatriated soon to the UK due to Brexit. An important element of this video was the subject of road haulae licences, the A,B,C licences with a number of variation. These licences very much restricted road haulage and, combined with a meximum speed for trucks of 20mph and an ancient highway system gave the railways a considerable advantage. Enter the tax-evading Minister of Transport the Right disHonerable Ernest Marples builder of roads for Her Majesty QE2. He steering through the Transport Act of 1962 that lead to a complete overhaul of road transport, the appointment of Richard Beeching and much, much more. All the time his company was building roads (Marples Ridgeway) so profiting from the evolution of freight trsport to the roads. The railways were also negatively affected by the conflicts between the various entities involved with their development and operation. A basis for a Laurel & Hardy style video (peut-être ).
Unfortunately rail freight was already on the way down at the time, road haulage having bloomed during the interwar period. This affected the GWR, LNER & LMS most, Southern having a much smaller stake in the freight business. Specifically, road haulage were able to pick and choose what they took, leaving the railways with the less profitable bits. That BR invested so heavily in it immediately post WWII shows a level of disconnect to the reality of things, even before Marples (AHHH) entered stage right.
great video as always please come look at the state of bus route 358 with the new electric busses that are not very good aa new fleet what can possibly go wrong lol
One could argue Route B could be useful these days for crossing the river without going into central London or Zone 1/2. Though personally id argue for it to follow a route further east like the woolwich branch of the DLR.
You know, I am puzzled by the fact that in the UK rail freight was sacrificed for the sake of passenger service, while in the US and Canada the exact reverse happened. Rail is so obviously the superior solution to both problems, yet….
Post war the UK railways were falling apart having not had the investment needed during World War 2. Also when the war ended the MoD sold off thousands of trucks kick starting road haulage. A few years later Ernest Marples (carefully transferring ownership of his road building company to his wife to ensure no possible conflict of interest) started building motorways and also appointed a certain Dr Beeching to look at making the railways profitable. The rest is history...
British Rail modernisation plan is the oxymoron of the C20th. In 2025 freight trains from Immingham traverse the Brigg Line still signalled in sections by semaphore operated by a lever frame using lengths of tensioned wire running along the side of the track.
A system that has stood the test of time. Wasn't the delay to the opening of the Elizabeth line in part due to problems with a modern signalling system?
Oh, it’s very reliable, if sometimes a little tricky to operate when the temperature changes, but a system a time travelling signaller from 1885 would be able to operate was hardly ‘modern’ even in the 1950s. Maybe by the 2050s British Rail’s 1950s modernisation plan will have finally been completed…mostly…perhaps…
Imma be honest a North South connection from MML and WCML to south London with a Third Rail and Overhead. As the around the suburbs are far from properly electrified.
Route B through Greenwich, it seems, was designed to use the course of the glorious Angerstein Wharf railway. I wonder whether London Overground could use it to enhance the North Greenwich peninsula connectivity, at least to n theory 🤔
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
"Just couldn't deliver the goods." 😂
@@cjf97 ☺ ☺!!
Yet another Jago video where he came up with the punchline and then contrived the entire script to lead up to it.
A master of that skill, is our Jago!
I just love Jago's puns and turns of phrase.
@@clickrick i came to the comments to say the exact same thing. but I won't, now.
Completely shameless.
‘You are the adequately-sized tunnel for. . . ‘ Good gracious old chap. Chat up line and a half😂
The UK has a considerably lower percentage of rail freight than the continent. Then again, the UK has the second-busiest railway network in Europe. Especially around London, you'll be hard-pressed to squeeze another train in.
This could be alleviated with extra tracks. Maybe a dedicated, high-speed passenger line to Manchester and beyond.
Yes, they should have kept the Great Central open as a freight route.
I don't think that would be feasible. What about the dozen or so bats that might live within a couple of miles of such a hypothetical line? The costs to protect them would be incredible, possibly as high as £100m!
@@ricequackers The cost would be not so much because of the bats, but more because of the tunnel that would have to be dug, in order not to spoil the view from the country houses of the friends of the government at the time.
Where's the busiest? Netherlands?
@@SeverityOne The last government wanted to protect views, the current one bats, the next one maybe something else altogether. The end result is the same, the cost of development being 3x what it is in Spain or Italy
That Working Party Report really is the gift that keeps on giving....
That was a freightful tail from the tube
Badum-tish
There is a "full size" underground line that is freight only in the UK. It runs underneath Crewe.
I know how much of a train nerd I’m becoming when I see brief video of wagons and recognise their type 😵💫
As a lad in the 1960s I used to be a train spotter, not really collecting numbers as such, but simply liked to observe and photograph them.
I loved the widened lines in particular and was always curious about the subterranean goods depot at Smithfield.
On one day out during which I had bought a twin cover for five bob, I must have gone to Kings Cross on the Piccadily line then changed on to the circle towards Paddington.
I was waiting on the platform when I heard a rumbling noise of an approaching train, it didn't sound like the normal surface stock, it was indeed a class 08 shunter with some vans, I have no idea where it went nor where it had come from
Had it come over the thames through snow hill and where was it going to.
On another interesting not at Kings Cross two tunnels on either side of the station served to enter the widened lines, on the east side the trains stopped at York Way.
Whilst the tunnel dropped down to head east there was a Junction that split and headed west and joined the Met, I understand it closed a few years after opening in 1868.
Here is a video that shows where there is a Junction, slip to 2 minsx54 secs and you can see the split in the tunnel
ruclips.net/video/2PI8Ht7JJY4/видео.htmlsi=cTjG4iPnTt9BRbam
This could be a new topic for a video.
God this really is *such* an of its time proposal. You were spot on, it would be ludicrous today, given how much priorities have shifted and how the lines it planned to use/work alongside have changed too. I don't think anyone in the 1940s could have foreseen the East London Line becoming what it has - a major north-south link in the east that is part of a wider network of successful commuter lines... let alone the Docklands' own railway system partially becoming part of a light rail system to serve a completely different area, or the Snow Hill Tunnel being the heart of one of the busiest commuter rail systems in the country.
Great video!
Ya know I could see this working today for European through freight that doesn't need to go to London. Great video Jago!
Except presumably they'll need to be a holding area to clear customs.... ..
Just sayin'.
@@mrb.5610 That would probably be done when the cargo is loaded, not when it gets to the tunnel or anything. Also there is already a lot of freight going through the Chunnel, I belive more freight trains than passenger trains
Wouldn't it be easier to just have through-freight go around London rather than digging a massive infrastructure project under the city? Especially considering freight is kept off HS1 up until the tunnel itself
I would love to replace several lanes of motorways with rail routes. They already go to the same places, and are built with gentle curves.
Considering most logistics companies have central primary depots that served several industries at once, such as Spalding, and then a handful of secondary Regional Distribution Centres, such as Brimsdown, it's insane to me that we put all of those lorries on the road when a single train could serve them all at once and not even have to think about traffic.
@@DeathInTheSnow nice idea in theory but doesn't work in practice, the gradients and curves of motorways don't suit railways.
This video hauled the Goods for sure.
There is a normal gauge tunnel line 100% dedicated to moving trash under the city of Lausanne in Switzerland. Check the Tridel Tunnel.
Couldn't deliver the goods!...Chuckle Chortle. That humourous throw away line would even make the sleepers snigger!
Considering that the first tracked routes were for hauling material out of mines, I'd argue that, for an extremely long time, all underground rail services were for freight.
Also, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that it was proposed that we should've had an Underground freight service before we had a ring railway. If anybody at TfL can tell me why it takes over an hour to get from Enfield to Barnet, two neighbouring London boroughs which aren't radially linked, by bus, or two hours if there's even a hint of traffic, then please do. We could've had trams, you know. Lovely, exciting, sleek trams, with segregated routes and no traffic. Now we can't even have _bus stops_ that aren't hindered by cars, let alone bus lanes.
Thanks Jago. I've always been fascinated by the freight train running. As a child, I'd spot freight trains running along the Barking - Woodgrange Park stretch of what is now the Suffragette Line of the Overground network, running through Barking Station, and very occasionally in west London in the Willesden Junction area, and along the western stretch of what's now the Mildmay Line of the Overground network, at West Brompton. I guess, I'll always be curious about where the freight starts and finishes, as this is not on any publicly-accessible rail maps.
There was a highly successful underground railway in london that was never meant to carry passengers. It carried Mail...
Jago has done a video on that....
It's a fascinating place to visit. Such a brilliant idea.
Yay nice to see a Jago video after a short hiatus
I do enjoy how you deliver these little parcels of knowledge in a concise, interesting package. Cheers for the video.
"It just couldn't deliver the goods" - Nice.
IIRC in the 1990s there was a private proposal to reopen the Great Central Railway, at least in part, and connect it to the Channel Tunnel via a tunnel under London. Fearing that it would not receive sufficient private sector support the government of the day killed the proposal before birth. Another "might have been" to explore perhaps.😢
It's surprising how much freight fits in around the commuter traffic on London rail lines - the North London Line + Goblin, West London Line (or whatever it's called now), the west-east route through South London and also the line from Clapham Junction up to Kew. I don't know about other people, but I like a bit of freight, makes a change plus it's noisier and more fun.
A while back 'for some good reason at the time' I read a file at The National Archives on the North London Line when the Beeching Cuts were being proposed in which it was said effectively *You absolutely cannot close down the NLL* - if you look at the maps we have provided you will see that freight trains will have to take a very scenic route to go between 'east of London' and 'west of London' routes... [summarising]
Amd occasionaly it derails and causes trouble to people who try to visit all overground stops as quick as possible.
It's still called the Goblin, don't worry. The fact you've forgotten whatever TfL failed to change it to shows what a waste of money it was. Same with the Lea Valley Line.
Clapham Junction to Kew? Do you mean Brentford or the line through Richmond, as the only line through Kew is the District and whatever the North London line's called now. I've never seen a goods train on that in Kew. I see them going through North Sheen though.
@@paulqueripel3493 Freight runs regularly via Clapham Jn past me in Chiswick to Kew Bridge (that's the key point!), then takes the freight-only line north to Willesden/Cricklewood
What we tend to forget, is that until the 1960's, a large percentage of rail freight was coal. In London this was a major problem, so the power stations at Battersea, Lotts Rd and Fulham were built alongside the Thames, allowing coal deliveries via barges.
I read somewhere that in the 1920's the Midland Railway alone delivered 40,000 tons of coal to London daily.Then there was that delivered by the Great Northern, the LNWR etc. Coal was then viewed as essential for human life!
@@MrDavil43 I am sure that was true back in the 1920's. On top of the industrial and commercial use, by tea time, there was smoke belching out of around 7 million house chimneys.
恭喜發財，新年快樂
The Chicago Tunnel Company operated an underground freight railway till 1959.
This actually was sort of a thing in Buenos Aires, there's a tunnel that goes under the Line A called 1912 and it was mainly used as a freight tunnel until very recently, this tunnel was operated by the Sarmiento Line.
It also saw very shyly some passenger use, although it was not adequate for this kind of service.
And, i almost forget, Line B had a freight service going to the Mercado de Abasto, this tunnel was operative until 1952. Also it worked under the Federico Lacroze Railway Company (which is now the Urquiza line), this company also built Line B.
So there WAS through service between B and U…just not for passengers?
There is a special Underground train. It’s yellow and used for maintenance. It’s quite rare to see it, but one evening it came through Russell Square station, with track ballast in some goods carriages.
Great video Jago. I did briefly think it was going to be about the Crewe freight semi underground lines. Then I thought no, can't be a Jago video then! Interesting to see what was planned for London though back then. Thanks.
I love the footage of the freight train going through West Brompton on the West London Line. The West London Line is so underrated.
Movements between the big London freight yards were often handled by huge Maunsell W class tank engines. When their work dried up, some of them got a second career banking trains up the steep climb from Exeter St Davids to Exeter Central. None left, sadly.
A neatly packaged video. Signed, sealed, stamped and delivered with the usual poise and aplomb.
Somebody did suggest a rail route to carry freight which was either under or over or next to the M25. Perhaps believing that the channel tunnel would provide opportunities for international goods business.
how many fearful speculative stories about the safety of the tunnels would there be in the alternative timeline where there is a railway under one of the country's busiest motorways and cars continue to get heavier
Over the years i spent many hours pondering the use of in street tram lines to deliver goods at night.
A fascinating documentary in the "if only - WHAT?!?!?" category. It was also wonderful to see, at 1:54 and 4:24, the station at Medstead & Four Marks on the Watercress Line in Hampshire (which I spent four years restoring between 1981 and 1985). It still looks good today, 40 years on from the re-opening in 1983.
I was standing at Swanley station watching your video this evening and a freight train went past on the opposite platform. I was then very surprised only a few moments later to see possibly the exact same wagons featured on your video (at 05:00).
A steam hauled coal train ran through Leytonstone at 4p.m. most week days, on route to Ongar I think. It ran until at least the late 'fifties. I'd see it, or sometimes just it's exhaust blasting above the station, as I came home from school. It was always going like the clappers....
Thanks and blessings.
4:23 That doesn't appear to be a whole cow. It's just a head on a pole isn't it?
I thought it was the Devil himself!
🤭 = yes, trying to be realistic with that cattle carriage
Take it easy fellers - where's the beef? 😂
I feel like this whole video was created to serve that final joke. And rightfully so!
You are likely to encounter some pretty unusual proposals if you hang around railway stations Jago, especially if you spend too much time near Kings Cross.
thanks for the interesting video, we are the containers to your long distance freight train
6:10 - a closing remark that was signalled in advance. Pity I didn't see it coming, I'd have been able to stifle the groan.😀😆🤣
I've had some pretty unusual proposals on underground lines in London, mostly late on a Saturday night.
Where are those disused tunnels @5:54?
A couple of thoughts on this, firstly, how useful these tunnels would have been now if they had been built then. Secondly and more important now is the strain that sharing the overground tracks with freight is becoming. Both passengers and freight traffic is increasing and both get in the way of the other. Manchesters mayor has said he would like to get rid of the freight from what will be his tracks in the future (good luck with that). My solution would be for TfL to pay towards a freight bypass from the East coast ports across to the mainline routes around London with no or very limited stops in between. This would free up lots of capacity and allow alterations that would both benefit Londoners and the hauliers.
I think we need an freight line (the size of channel tunnel LeShuttle trains) that goes from Kent to Essex with a tunnel crossing under the river, so that we can take some of the road vehicles that are dumped onto roads South East of London and dump them onto roads North East of London instead.
It also would be good to be able to tie freight trains coming through the Eurotunnel directly into the freight network of trains coming out of Tilbury docks.
And the line should be tied into the passenger railways of Kent and Essex to encourage people to take trains instead of driving over the M25 crossing.
Freight train always sounded so American to us English, especially back in the 1940s. They were always known as goods trains to us.
"Type three freight locomotive"? Strangest euphemism I've ever heard! Vaguely reminds me of "Has the train arrived in Paddington yet?"..." No I'm afraid it's in Colchester - ouch!"
I mean, those extensive goods yards looked unreal. That, combined with the erstwhile Docks.
Where's the shot at 5:58 taken from and what are we looking at? Great shot.
A freightening scenario of the Nuclear waste trains trundling under London on their way from Dungeness to Sellafield.
We need more dedicated freight lines in the uk
Love the train named Over the Rainbow 🌈
Blimey, that tunnel could have been beneath my house :)
There's a lot to be said for a cross London freight only line.
Would boost freight and free up existing routes. Any other route would just end up as another passenger route and push freight out.
Get politicians involved and mission creep is as inevitable as going over budget. Beginning with 'provision as a diversionary route' ("best use of taxpayers' money, don'cha know") *of course* it'll end up as a passenger line. The only real question is "will the Portishead Branch be reopened by he time that happens"?
The problem with the Liverpool St to Shoreditch spur was it was built the wrong way round, it was truly inconvenient to run a train into the platform then wind an engine to come along and pull it through onto southern metals and because of the way things were that was as far as the eastern loco could go so the consist needed to wait for a southern loco to come fetch it blocking the platform for passengers again. BR did look at trying to pull a loop in from the goods station into Shoreditch but the goods station was so tight up against the line it was impossible and sooner or later the little spur was doomed. Much to the relief of places like Southend who were hurt when east London folk took the excursion to Margate or Brighton, Margate and Brighton used to south Londoners were quite happy them dirty unwashed lot from across the water no longer turned up especially when the West Ham steel workers got into the same pubs as Millwall dockers there was quite a few scraps which ruined the day for everyone... After the success of Snow Hill, BR did briefly turn its eye at the little bit of rail thinking how useful a SR to ER link would be without having to run all the way up to Willesden then along the North London Line onto ER metals, Ford who operated a fairly frequent train from Sheppey to Dagenham were quite keen to cut times down but BR said nyetski matey.
That east london cross tunnel route looks a bit like the Silvertown (road) tunnel we now - nearly - have
An east-west freight line wouldn’t be a bad idea. The amount of container traffic coming out of the new docks further out to Essex is constrained heavily by the capacity of the North London Line. Similar can be said for the lines out to Felixstowe and to Southampton.
GBs population density being heavily weighted towards the South East means it makes sense for the majority of ports to be there. But in order to efficiently serve the entire population, our logistics networks are centred on the East Midlands. This means that the ports in the south east have to distribute their goods through major urban areas, and Tilbury may actually be the worst site possible as far as the rail network is concerned.
It’s a similar argument to expansion of Gatwick, or building a new airport in the Thames estuary. Heathrow is the main airport for the entirety of the UK, and while its public transport links from anywhere outside the M25 aren’t great, for most of us, there is no need to travel across London to reach it. The same cannot be said for Gatwick or Maplin Sands. In fact, I would suggest the one of the biggest losses of HS2 is that not having a railway station directly at Heathrow means it will always struggle to replace domestic flights where LHR is a connection (as it is regularly for those of us in central Scotland).
Always great content 👍
Having travelled all over the USA , in the 1970's ( on many freight trains 😝 ) ... I find this amusing ... most of their tunnels can accept 2 tall container wagons ( " cars "😝 ) .. God bless America 🇺🇸 ............... DAVE™🛑
Love it sir
Good choice of a Class 76 loco there Jago, given that 1500 VDC OHL may well at that time been a preferred traction method. The relatively low voltage wouldn't have needed too much overhead clearance, and the technology was already in production with the LNER.
And it was still before the formation of the 25 kV Consortium, I believe, so nobody was there to really put pressure on BR to go for a different standard altogether, the one for which both the British industry and the railway were unready.
@F1ghteR41 Indeed. I believe the LMS were already experimenting with 25 KVAC on the Lancaster, Morecambe and Heysham line, or at least tinkering with the 6.6 KVAC 25 Hz equipment. I understand it was converted to 50 Hz in the early 50s, but I would agree it's unlikely it would have been in serious contention for this project.
@ It surely played no significant part in the overall turn to the 25 kV AC standard, seeing as it was achieved so late (see the WCML electrification timetable).
Class 80 was achieved by turning a gas turbine locomotive into electric one (a change for the better in those circumstances, I would say) with at least some Swiss electrical components. Classes 81-85 were still built with dual standard (25/6.25 kV AC) prime movers, moreover, class 85 has co-developed with the French, and 86 was really two different engines depending on the make, because BR was fickle lke that (and dieselization debacle taught them nothing), and still experienced problems into the late '60s. So I'm not sure whether anything was learned on the locomotive side as well.
I don't think that rectifying 1.5 kV DC power delivery issues would've taken 4 years, and in any case it could be applied as is to subruban and less freight-heavy lines, with the motive power all there already, as you've said.
Seeing as both Soviet Union and Italy continued merrily with their 3 kV DC systems, with USSR significantly expanding theirs in the early '50s, and taking into account the disastrous dieselization and retention of steam haulage until the late '60s, I'm really failing to see any short-term or mid-term benefits the desire to switch to 25 kV AC brought to Britain. Now, 3 kV DC was a better system, yes, and by 1964 Channel tunnel plans seemingly vindicated the 25 kV standard, but as we know, nothing came of it until the '80s, and in any event, until HS1 locomotives were still bi-modal, but running on even less impressive 750 V DC into London, so it wasn't much of a win for the AC system at all.
@ It surely played no significant part in the overall turn to the 25 kV AC standard, seeing as it was achieved so late (see the WCML electrification timetable).
Class 80 was achieved by turning a gas turbine locomotive into electric one (a change for the better in those circumstances, I would say) with at least some Swiss electrical components. Classes 81-85 were still built with dual standard (25/6.25 kV AC) prime movers, moreover, class 85 has co-developed with the French, and 86 was really two different engines depending on the make, because BR was fickle lke that (and dieselization debacle taught them nothing), and still experienced problems into the late '60s. So I'm not sure whether anything was learned on the locomotive side as well.
I don't think that rectifying 1.5 kV DC power delivery issues would've taken 4 years, and in any case it could be applied as is to subruban and less freight-heavy lines, with the motive power all there already, as you've said.
Seeing as both Soviet Union and Italy continued merrily with their 3 kV DC systems, with USSR significantly expanding theirs in the early '50s, and taking into account the disastrous dieselization and retention of steam haulage until the late '60s, I'm really failing to see any short-term or mid-term benefits the desire to switch to 25 kV AC brought to Britain. Now, 3 kV DC was a better system, yes, and by 1964 Channel tunnel plans seemingly vindicated the 25 kV standard, but as we know, nothing came of it until the '80s, and in any event, until HS1 locomotives were still bi-modal, but running on even less impressive 750 V DC into London, so it wasn't much of a win for the AC system at all.
Great video and I really want to know the history of Cannon street and Victoria stations
Great topic. Would be interesting to look at current scheme of building freight hubs around London?
Still, the amount of goods that need to come into the metropolis that is London, especially with the rise of online shopping and next day delivery, might justify having some underground freight rail... Maybe like the post office tube?
you learn something new everyday with Jago hazzard!
Underfreight.
I lament the graffiti-marred coaches and buildings. London was so different during my first visit in August of 1970.
Cheers Jago!
Hare Krishna
Hi Jago
2:35 you suggest that there was a connection between The Widened Lines and Paddington Station….was or has there ever been such a connection??
Could someone please put a footbridge onto those Blackfriars Bridge columns sticking up forlornly out of the Thames?
Nice EM1 \m/
@4:12, is that Jago sneaking in a photo opportunity? 😂 I am sure that Jago mentioned in passing that milk wagons used to use the underground.
Is freight regularly travelling through the Channel Tunnel yet, on internationally suitable locos hauling on-purpose built consists,and not just trucks sitting on Le Shuttle?
New built full-sized freight tunnels & stations underneath London? (yeah, using old infra as much as possible, but still). Gonna have to say No to that, true.
A modern version of the postal tube? Maybe sized for EU pallets? Trains run by computers, automatic on/offloading, connected to loading stations at major postal facilities, but also open for shared use by DHL, UPS, etc.
That could be a thing.
I am increasingly convinced that every Jago video these days is just one long set up for a groaner of a pun. And to that I say, here here! lol
I havent been out much so that Orange Freightliner livery is new to me, anything to do with Dutch railways ?
Small U underground lines have big underground trains.
Capital U Underground lines have small U Underground trains.
How fun is that
Thanks again for an interesting video. I have a copy of said plan that will be repatriated soon to the UK due to Brexit.
An important element of this video was the subject of road haulae licences, the A,B,C licences with a number of variation. These licences very much restricted road haulage and, combined with a meximum speed for trucks of 20mph and an ancient highway system gave the railways a considerable advantage.
Enter the tax-evading Minister of Transport the Right disHonerable Ernest Marples builder of roads for Her Majesty QE2. He steering through the Transport Act of 1962 that lead to a complete overhaul of road transport, the appointment of Richard Beeching and much, much more. All the time his company was building roads (Marples Ridgeway) so profiting from the evolution of freight trsport to the roads.
The railways were also negatively affected by the conflicts between the various entities involved with their development and operation. A basis for a Laurel & Hardy style video (peut-être ).
Weel, there was a mail only line so its not massively stupid idea
But which type 3 freight loco?
Well, that’s a new one! Didn’t think you could actually do that! Mind, suppose it was a good idea in principle
Unfortunately rail freight was already on the way down at the time, road haulage having bloomed during the interwar period. This affected the GWR, LNER & LMS most, Southern having a much smaller stake in the freight business. Specifically, road haulage were able to pick and choose what they took, leaving the railways with the less profitable bits. That BR invested so heavily in it immediately post WWII shows a level of disconnect to the reality of things, even before Marples (AHHH) entered stage right.
great video as always please come look at the state of bus route 358 with the new electric busses that are not very good aa new fleet what can possibly go wrong lol
Came because of the thumbnail
Stayed because of the info
@@ormondsworld3947 Have you looked at the other Jago Hazzard videos. If not you're in for a treat !!
It’s a very good idea
Why doesn't the tube go to Twickenham? Future video topic?
One could argue Route B could be useful these days for crossing the river without going into central London or Zone 1/2.
Though personally id argue for it to follow a route further east like the woolwich branch of the DLR.
Hey Jago - you didn't show or talk about the yellow (???) Freight / Ballast Trains you sometimes see late at night on the London Underground??? 🤔🚂🚂🚂
Class 90 electric locos? Aren't those in use in the North?
thumbnail from the second channel, I've noticed
Just how old is that ICI Fertiliser branded waggon?
Probably older than me 😊
You know, I am puzzled by the fact that in the UK rail freight was sacrificed for the sake of passenger service, while in the US and Canada the exact reverse happened. Rail is so obviously the superior solution to both problems, yet….
Post war the UK railways were falling apart having not had the investment needed during World War 2. Also when the war ended the MoD sold off thousands of trucks kick starting road haulage. A few years later Ernest Marples (carefully transferring ownership of his road building company to his wife to ensure no possible conflict of interest) started building motorways and also appointed a certain Dr Beeching to look at making the railways profitable. The rest is history...
So route B went from near to Bromley to near to Bromley
Could Route B eventually repurposed from freight to mainline passenger trains, particularly if they built a link from Blackheath to Ladywell.
'Yes, we've all gone bananas, 'cos white vans, took all the freight trains, away' . . . Due apologies etc. : )
British Rail modernisation plan is the oxymoron of the C20th. In 2025 freight trains from Immingham traverse the Brigg Line still signalled in sections by semaphore operated by a lever frame using lengths of tensioned wire running along the side of the track.
A system that has stood the test of time. Wasn't the delay to the opening of the Elizabeth line in part due to problems with a modern signalling system?
Oh, it’s very reliable, if sometimes a little tricky to operate when the temperature changes, but a system a time travelling signaller from 1885 would be able to operate was hardly ‘modern’ even in the 1950s. Maybe by the 2050s British Rail’s 1950s modernisation plan will have finally been completed…mostly…perhaps…
Imma be honest a North South connection from MML and WCML to south London with a Third Rail and Overhead. As the around the suburbs are far from properly electrified.
I'm sure, if it had been built, the DLR would have found a use for the tunnel.
Route B through Greenwich, it seems, was designed to use the course of the glorious Angerstein Wharf railway. I wonder whether London Overground could use it to enhance the North Greenwich peninsula connectivity, at least to n theory 🤔
"Over the Trainbow". Freightliner 90014
Type III Freight Locomotive: oo-err, Missus x
Containerisation didn't kill the docks. The docks committed suicide by refusing to handle containers.