***RUNOUT***. The runout you are seeing is the "Magic Chuck". It's a quick change tool holder. It allows tool change without stopping the spindle. They are great for a lot of things, just not carbide. Lol. My mistake and lesson learned.
That makes sense. I have broken more than a couple of expensive carbide mill tools in my day. Always makes me shed a tear. In my experience MA Ford makes excellent carbide tools. Some of the highest quality tooling i've used. My problem has always been similar in that I have smalle machines that sometimes do not offer the rigidity needed and a little vibration breaks small carbide dovetail cutters and drills easily.
Dear Josh, that was the first thing I noticed even before the first hole was drilled..... runout on the spindle......and of course, you ended up relearning Carbide does not like runout......But !!!, that carbide bit can be resharpened.....Sorry for your loss..... but hopefully a gain for some viewers.....I have found keeping the AR plate cool is very important too, as it will harden even more if you do not feed and cool correctly... Best Wishes, you motivate me with every video you do.....Paul
May have already been mentioned previously, but generally it's best not to use carbide (or at least carbide shank) tool in a drill chuck. With the jaws being softer than the tool they will deform bit by bit and increase the risk of slipping. Carbide tip on a spade drill might be a good option for something like this. You still have the lower shock resistance of carbide in the tip, but it's overall more forgiving and less expensive (provided you can stop the cut when something goes wrong) than solid WC. I've seen some disasters and near disasters occur with the combination in Inconel 625, though I think it's a matter of bad programming more than anything else.
Hey josh. Use to do alot of these plates. We made the holes and the countersink with the plasma cutter since precision is not the name of the game on those jobs. Way cheaper way quicker.
We've drilled many holes in AR plates. We used a carbide hole hog bit. Then a counter sink bit. Using a mag drill. The hole hog bit only cut the periphery and left a plug. The cheek plates in most of our crushers were 3/4 thick and used 3/4 counter sink bolts. Good luck.
At least those carbide annular cutters are inexpensive compared to solid carbide drills, if you do ruin a few of them. They can be run on drills or mills using appropriate arbors, which is something I do often. Never had to work with AR500 however.
I cut AR500 before. It's safe to say that carbide doesn't last on this stuff. I haven't tried the hanita coated carbide endmills on it, but I can't imagine that they would last significantly longer.
I drilled a lot of holes in AR500 plate with a mag drill and Slugger annular cutters. I've drilled holes in forklift forks with them. Countersinks were more of a problem. We found AR plate hardness to be too inconsistent so we switched to Astralloy EB450 plate. We had to torch holes and weld the plates down but they lasted 4 to 5 times as long as AR500.
A while ago i had to drill a lot of 3/8 holes in HRC61 material. My supplier provided me with a pair of carbide drills. His instructions were. Max out the speed on the drill press.(1200 rpm) Keep a constant feed rate,no manual feed.And certainly no coolant at all. The carbide went through the material like butter. I returned the second drill because i didn't need it.
yep I agree about speed and feed. Scares the pants of me but it worked well. get speed and feeds from your drill supplier if it breaks send it back as not fit for porpoise better still we used to get the tooling rep to come and demonstrate the tool he was recommending at his peril, it was very telling how they would change recommendations when demonstrating their tools
@@chisdalton9652 I would love it if a tooling rep would come out. I can't even get them to return phone calls or emails. I always have to figure it out myself. I guess it's just part of being in business in the most depressed region of the country.
Used to drill a lot of AR500 plates for a mill. We didn't use any slugger bits, but we did try carbide on our 4ft carlton. The same thing happened when we tried the carbide bit. Snapped the bit on the first cut. Had luck with cobalt bits. You had to keep constant pressure on the bit. If you let the bit ride in the cut just for a second it would get hard fast and take the edge off. We did maybe 400 to 500 pcs at a time. A couple of holes my guys had trouble with, I heated with a torch and ran the cobalt bit thru hot. Had to keep the edge sharp. Yes they were a pain in the keyster.
Josh, Love your Channel. I have drilled Thousands of Holes in AR 500 Plate. This was our procedure. Using a Radial Drill or Mag Drill we ALWAYS first ground off the Mill Scale. This increased the life of the Cutter. We would always use a Cobalt Annular Cutter and a VERY GOOD Cutting OIl, Coolant never worked that well. The more we flooded it with the Oil the better it did. TURNING SLOW. Then used a Cobalt Countersink flooded with Oil. Not trying to Criticize but this worked for us and drilled thousands of holes
I always hand thin the web so there's as little rubbing in the center as possible. Reduces the feed pressure a lot. More harder the material, more shallow back rake helps too. Also, I NEVER use center drills but use Spotting drills for a starter, which are much more rugged and don't shatter the point. Center drills break unpredictably it seems. I only use them for center holes on the lathes.
So I know a guy that moved from Australia to Thailand, he works at a place that builds armoured cars. What he would've done for this is sharpen a concrete drill on a diamond or CBN wheel. You can make the tip so it can cut into the steel.
I used to make oilfield bitbreaker plates (they locked the drill bit so the tongs could screw or unscrew the the pipe from them) out of AR500 and A514. These plates were about 14x14 and had a horseshoe shaped notch in the middle about 7" wide for the bit to go in. We drilled the handle and lock bar holes with Iscar Chamdrills with thru coolant and did the machining with Mitsubishi feed mills for roughing and MA Ford 6 flute solid carbide endmills. We ran full flood coolant along with airblast to evacuate the chips. Stuff actually cut nice and would only kill the tools when you could not evacuate the chips fast enough. Nice work you are doing there.
I've milled AR a lot over the years with no real issue. Other shops won't even touch it. It's really not that bad once you figure it out. But yes, getting the chip away is a big key to success.
Made a large bore in AR plate. Saw a perfectly round shadow in the side wall. It looked like a bearing in the melt, 😅. Tough job. Had a nasty small drill in hardened SStl. After pulling a lot of hair tried HS drills as a last resort. Worked. Live and learn. Thanks
Wait a minute yes Mr. Topper IS Working Hard, yet he is having a blast doing this job. Seeing you literally diving right in made me smile. As always get it done and done right the first time. 😊
I spent a Saturday night sitting on top of a 2”plate weldment, drilling 1 1/2” diameter holes. I needed a step ladder to get on the weldment. I was using a 12’ Carlton radial. That was big work!
I had the same problem yesterday trying to use a carbide drill on some stainless. I had 4 holes to drill and about 1/2 way through the second hole with a brand new carbide drill from Haas one flute on the carbide drill snapped off at the tip. Dang it those drills are expensive! I only had one of those drills on hand but since I had the job set up on my mill I was able to use a center cutting end mill to get the job done. Still frustrating to waste a brand new carbide drill. Good on you for taking on that AR500 project.
Great job! I have done the same exact thing With a carbide tipped annular cutter and a regular carbide twist drill. Carbide is definitely the only way to go when you have a lot of holes to do.
I worked in a foundry and would make where plates for conveyors out of ar 500. Would use a mag drill and annular cutter. Run it slow with coolant. If she getts hot, you will break tooling.
I have a tungsten tipped three-quarter inch annular cutter which I used to drill holes in a cutting edge for a excavator bucket. It was $200 20 years ago. Worked a treat. I still have it
@@TopperMachineLLC It’s 1030 at night here in Queensland Australia. I’ll have a look in the workshop in the morning and post the manufacturers details to you. I’m pretty sure it was made in America. Cheers
X2 on a tungsten carbide tooth annular cutter. I've never used them on AR steel before but I have used them drilling hundreds of 1/2" holes in 304ss. Also used a 2-1/4" cutter to drill out several plasma cut holes in 1.5" plate with amazing results. I have a job this week using some 5/8" AR400 and I will try drilling a scrap piece and will let you know the results. Walter, Fein Slugger, and Hougen make good quality cutters.
Pilot hole and cutting oil makes a world of difference even with a mag drill and HSS bits on AR material. Never used solid carbide only because it was not available. Ya, we had to re-sharpen but not a lot. With the run out you have, an annual cutter may hang up as well. Thanks for sharing.
That runout was the "Magic Chuck" I should have just put it rigid in the spindle. Carbide was worth trying, and I may do it again, but HSS with the anchorlube was amazing.
I always have to drill stuff that is harder than woodpecker lips. At work, the mack e7 engine runs m14 exhaust manifold studs that are stainless and have gone through a million heat cycles. I have some carbide tipped bits that I actually get from Amazon. I also use concrete bits that I sharpen on my green stone. Both work good and are cheap. You can resharpen that carbide bit on a green stone as well.
We used to do similar jobs except on 1" material. We discovered that a carbide step drill worked well with old school high sulphur cutting oil. How did your carbide drill do when you cut it back and reground it? Love seeing someone completing a task that has others stumped!
You got to love the RAD's for what they can Handel, I love the "Magic Chuck" some of the jobs I would run would have a lot of different size holes , threads and a lot of steps to do under the RAD. Made up a tool rack to hold the tooling being used beside the drill , locate the spot and do the hole complete then move to the next spot and repeat. Would use soap stone to highlight the lay out spots so I didn't have to look to hard for the next hole, (on some things I have gotten smarter as I have aged ) I look forward to your posts each week. Also Thanks for getting you Big snow blower up and running this year, it's done a great job down here in the state line. Only hade to use mine two or three times this year. Be safe
That wobby in your drillchuck surely made fast work out of your carbide drillbit.. Carbide drills like rigidity, they absolutely hate extra side pressure. I am almost certain it wouldn't have broken if it was actually running somewhat true.. *edit* Ah i see you even mentioned it would have worked with more rigidity on the boring mill, 100% agree
This was entirely my mistake. I should have had it in a proper rigid mount instead of my "Magic Chuck". They are great for quick changes but are far from rigid. Expensive lesson to learn. After it broke I realized why. But, HSS worked great and did the job. A much cheaper alternative to carbide.
@@TopperMachineLLC You learn out of mistakes and to be fair you could regrind that carbide drill. (a drillbit grinder would be the best obviously) i have freestyled and reground carbide with hand and it does work but man is it hard to remove material without the proper wheel in the bench grinder.
This brought back memories for me. Decades ago I was a mechanical engineer in a plant that made asphalt paving equipment and we specified 3/8” AR plate for [consumable] screed liners. They were drilled and countersunk similar to your job. We used HSS Cobalt drills and countersinks for 1/2” FH fasteners. The machinist used a pilot drill and clearance drill in a machine very similar to yours along with a buttload of cutting oil. Thanks for posting.
Funny you should mention asphalt equipment. The second shop I worked at built rollers. I became their lead machinist, and later when I left to start my own shop they were my first customer. They are now gone due to a partnership with a greedy 90+ year old a-hole. Destroyed a company with almost 150 years of history. Sad. .
@@TopperMachineLLC The only thing worse than drilling AR was bending it (also part of our process). Regrettably it's not so unusual for a company to take a bad turn after a leadership change. Glad you were able to break out and succeed in your own shop. Not everyone can do that.
@@Dogfather66227 I've bent it before. Oh what fun. Lol. Honestly I have no idea how I've survived in this economically depressed region, but I'm still kicking.
Probably because you ask if something you are going to buy will pay it's way and stay away from credit. It helps that you do quality work for what I assume is a fair price.
I'm a believer in step drilling. I shoot for a 1/4-1/3 of diameter with each step. The harder the material the SLOWER I go. I've not found carbide drills or mills to be the answer. A sharp HS or Cobalt will tolerate the "slop" or vibrations. I've also found drilling into a backup block of oak or even steel. the cutting edges just don't like the material as it thins and frequently hardens at the break thru. I'm not a fan of misting or water based coolant for the heavier drilling work and generally use cutting oil.
That carbide drill looked like it was a flat bottom drill. I think a split point drill would have been much better. Less walking I think since you engage at one point. Good thing I get my carbide and HSS tools from auctions. They may sometimes be used a bit, but are generally in good shape and much cheaper than $150 per drill… just saying that hurt. Using HSCO drills is a better option I think. It is not worth using the carbide unless you are sure your setup is as rigid as a mountain. Great video though, really love seeing that drilling machine in action!
I cut that with plasma. What I found that after the big mills stopped producing. The smaller ones use bearing races and anything to get it into range. I've had chemical docs on mine that varied from Chrome-Molly to others that were more fibrinous. AR is anti-abrasion. 500 is registered and BHN
I’ve mag drilled and countersunk Hardox 450 similar to what you’re doing. I’ve found cobalt cutters to work the best for me. They stayed sharp longer than the carbide or didn’t break as soon. But when they’re done they’re done. Snap. Cheaper too than carbide TiN coated stuff
I was going to tell you to use cutting fluid instead of mist cooler. But you figured at out.....Also could you drill pilot hole first with 1/4? carbide bit after the center drill. A old timer told me one day Slow Speed and Heavy Feed and when the bit starts to cut keep going and don't stop until you are though..
Carbide isn't always the best choice. A while ago, I bought a carbide tipped hole saw to cut some holes in 18 gauge steel. The teeth ripped off on the first hole, so I got a HSS hole saw and had no problems with it for the rest of the job.
We do a lot of plate armor at work. Water jet , plasma cutter and drilling. My favorite drill bits are masonry bits. They seem to last for a long time and I usually use Anchor Lube for drilling myself. You are doing a great job with the hard material.
yeah.For manuel stuff masonry bits are great.Regrind them on the Diamond and they work like a dream. ANd cause of the steel body,they dont really brake easily
So i actually recently figured this out at work. I did this in a bridgeport that is well past its prime. use a helical 59921endmill, and pluge with it at 200 rpm and lots of air. I use them in the cnc but needed it in the bridgeport for a fabrication. I only use the 3/8 size but get whatever you want and adjust your rpm accordingly
Free hand drill bit sharpening that actually works/cuts with a bare minimum steady rest is a lost art, you got my attention and respect with this move. Ray Stormont
As per your pinned comment, runnout. Carbide has to run perfectly true or its doomed. And the jacobs chuck is designed to bite into a soft shank of a drill. Carbide doesn't allow the chuck to properly grip. Carbide is best ran in a collet if you can make an adapter of some sort to work on your drill.
I had a lot of bad things going on here. I have more tooling on order to remedy some of this. But also a video for Tuesday that will go over what happened and who. Basically, I knew I couldn't have done this, but thought it would be ok. Dumb mistake that I hope everyone can learn from. Especially myself.
Tough drilling job nicely done. Suggest using a high quality cobalt HSS (M42, 8% cobalt) 135 degree split point drill for wonky hard material like this. Carbide is brittle and will shatter if a hard spot is hit hard. Carbide is sensitive to set up rigidity. If anything walks, the carbide drill will likely shatter. Possible that broken carbide drill could be sent back to M.A. Ford for re-grind. Stuff like this is no fun at all.
I have not worked with a ton of AR plate so take my thoughts for what they're worth. I've never had much for luck with solid carbide twist drills. Exact same issue you had. Either the straight flute (hi-roc drill in MA Ford terminology) or the duck bill shaped solid carbide spades have performed a LOT better for me and are a lot harder to mess up. I've also had extremely good luck with a cheap indexable countersink off ebay that used SCMT lathe inserts. I've had it for years now and I'd be surprised if it cost me more than $20. Lot less painful to chip an insert than a solid carbide countersink Now this is purely theory for the rest, but if I had thia job show up here, I'd be really tempted to try either carbide blades in the Allied T/A spade drills, or a replacable head drill such as Kennametal K tip (whatever version of that is available from whoever you buy indexable tooling through)
I have a bottle, and it does work well on some stuff. I can almost tell by the smell that is has Kerosene in it. I bet if I looked through some of my old books, I could find a recipe. But then I would have to take time to mix it. Cheaper to just buy a bottle when needed.
Hi mate. Love your video's. I work in mining where our liner plates are 2" bisaloy 800. All holes are countersunk within 3mm (1/8") of the bottom of the hole. This gives the full thickness of the wear plate to be consumed. Remember once the head of the screw is gone, so is the liner plate. Sink the screws deeper.
Great job. Kinda funny to watch you using a carpenter's tape measure and a drywall square to lay it out... when pretty much everything else you do has to be so precise. 😁😆
Josh, others may comment, however even on your first hole, as you lowered the quill, I saw quite a lot of spindle and or chuck run out, guessing 1/16”… something I suspect didn’t help with carbide drills! Lateral movement and carbide is a recipe for broken drills. Might be the chuck, or whatever. Great pragmatic content, making do with what you have. Best!
I've always drilled bisalloy 500 cutting edges by annealing, where holes go by heating the imitate area red hot top and bottom then letting it cool on its own slowly back totally.this will soften the drilling area so you can drill it with any high speed bit, works every time, cut like butter.
Years ago we were drilling holes in 1in plate no pilot hole, a Prolong rep. had come to the shop we bought a gallon of their cutting oil. We drilled 48 holes no sharpening and looking at the point at the end the bluing hadn't even worn off. I dont know if the product is still produced ,if it is a little goes alooooong way!
Josh, for your next time drilling AR plate use a Keru drill. It's a HSS drill to be ran in a collet (or your magic chuck) with a shoulder to provide a place to provide extra pushing force but yet have that carbide insert on the cutting end. Different sizes and different lengths are available. As always low and slow is the key to cutting that stuff. Anchor Lube is better than the Kool Mister and I recommend using an acid brush and the open jar rather than the squirt bottle, you can get it where you want it and keep it there better. Good luck to you and keep them videos commin
I used to form AR plate. Can be a butt sometimes but it has its uses. I used at a metal shop and have used that Drywall square many times. Works good in a pinch for sure
I would think that an annular cutter either cobalt or carbide tipped would be the hot tip for that job. Well, a laser or waterjet would be ideal, but ...
I cut MO-Max tool cutting tools with solid carbide and never had a problem. It got red hot but drilled. It cooled and was sharp. Speed and pressure was to much. And any runout will wobble the drill and put side loads on the tip. Take/send the drill to a regrind shop. It will be a bit shorter, but viable.
This is the wear resistant stuff we sent to Iran for an Iron Ore Mining facility, some of the chutes even had additional liners made from recycled plastics pressed into sheets to try to save the AR500.
Hello from Aus. I would suggest you find a drill grinder, they are cheap in the long run with jobs like these. Low rpm like 90 is needed and EP sulpherised straight oil. The best drill I have found is the NAS-907 aircraft drill. Regards BC.
You can try getting cheap 2-flute impact stone drills with the carbide tip. Sharpen the tip for metal and drill. They stand hard stuff and are dirt cheap. Machinist shops buy those in bulk to drill hardox (ar equivalent)
My old boss use to hate the smell of sulfur cutting oil in the shop so he had our shop try Anchor Lube back in the eighties? We all were amazed at how it improved cutting on most shop machines, No smell and was easily thinned and/or washed away with plain old water. Just don't let straight Anchor Lube sit too long on your material, as it has a tendency to stain where ever left on.
Hi Topper. Just a suggestion when sharpening your drill bit try less than 118 degrees almost flat and reduce the speed rpms . It worked for me in similar hard plates.
I bought a sheet of AR500 plate back in the day. I got a 4'X8'X1\2 peice and was making snow plow cutting edges 6" X 8' I was able to cut it with a plasma cutter but got a rude awaking when i started to drill the holes to bolt it on. Had to end up cutting them with the plasma cutter as well. Thats some hard stuff.
Reminds me of when I had to drill and tap some plate that gripped the taps and stripped the holes I was trying to make. Foreman claimed it was reclaimed ship plate steel. Scrapped several pieces. Finally got to do it with some red powder that mixed with water to make a red liquid. Weird stuff.
Wow, hard stuff. Ive never worked with AR plate but have with BIZ alloy 60 or 80 wear plate. Maybe a plot drill prior to finished sized drill. And mark out and drill all plates (with others underneth) in one movement. The try countersinking with mag base drill. Worth a try if you get similar jobs. Keep up the great work. From Rob down under.
My choice would of been an inserted carbide drill like an Iscar Cham drill. It would of been cheaper and gives an opportunity to wreck an insert or two trying it out. Also I have seen 2insert 45 degree milling tools used as countersinks in this application. Squeals a bit but works well. That radial is possibly lifting under the drill force before the slack takes up, workhardening the surface, or maybe not, but it can definitely be an issue on those machines, my advice in that case would be to feed and keep feeding all the way, maybe even hand feed so you can ease off at the bottom and not get a rapid break through. We would normally countersink leaving a .040” or so of straight hole at the bottom giving maximum wear to the plate. Makes it harder to do though as you have to go a lot deeper.
Allied spade drills are the most profitable thing I've bought for my shop. Far better split point and geometry than you can get with hand grinding drills, thru coolant, coated, and they'll out last a twist drill 10:1.
I love them. I have several sizes and use the crap out of them for roughing bores on the lathe. They cut so accurate that I have a few parts I just finish with the spade drill bore. I did a batch of parts that finish bore was 2" +/- 0.005, The spade drilled 2.002-2.003 consistently and smooth. My customer was thrilled.
Solid carbide needs ridgity, but only one way to find out. Tough material, definitely hard on tooling, drill chisel edge has to force it's way through, near zero rpm, very little cutting action as is my understanding , thinning, or pilot drill, though several subscribers have suggested annular cutters, which sound a better option, ref uniform SFM. Thanks for showing warts and all Josh.
If those plates and hole patterns are all the same, I would have stacked them and tack welded them together and drilled all 3 at once, then countersink the top plate, break tack, remove and countersink # 2 then the same for #3. My experience is that the drill usually breaks or goes chips when it breaks through the hole and catches the edge of the material and wants to deflect. By drilling all 3 at once you only have the drill breaking through the hole one time.
I also considered this, but I have also had stack drilling end badly. Mostly because the plates are not truely flat to one another. You still get some of that break through chatter when there is a little gap. If they all sat good and flat to one another, I would have done that.
Thanks for putting up the video. That is one expensive drill bit. I'm noticing some wobbling of the drill holder OD. This is visible also on the HSS drill shank on close-ups. Maybe there is nothing but maybe there is something to look into? A rigid carbide might not tolerate such high side loads
I have been making snow blade edges out of 450 hardox. Cutting the size of the edge and the square hole for plow bolts on the plasma table. Everything from 1/4" to 3/4" and from 2 inches wide and six feet long to 8 inches wide and 8 feet long. Cutting a square hole with the plasma means heat being put into the cut so I didnt think a solid carbide countersink would stand up to the shock of hitting every side of a square hole so I went with 82 degree countersink with carbide inserts. Works better on the mill than it did on the mag drill which didn't quite have enough rigidity although it did work.. I just set my rpm to about 160 and feed rate to start at about 6 thou per and just let it work until I could get to depth. .No cutting fluid or coolant and got some nice golden curls.
Good job. I hated seeing you break your new bit. Darn hard stuff. I used a piece of 5/8" X 5" X 50" AR for a cutting edge on a tilt bucket I built for my excavator. I think I drilled six 1/2" holes. That was prior to my mag drill but might have been a motivating factor in the purchase. LOL! Thanks for the video.
Josh, Great videos and thank you. I have made a good amount of mull boards for dozer blades and loader buckets. I have had good success with using a carbide tip annular cutter and a mag drill, or an annular cutter in an arbor on a Bridgeport. They are definitely cheaper
AR500 has a Brinell hardness of 480+ ! I was really amazed at how that carbide mill went through it, independent of the runout problem. Abrasion resistant steel is tough stuff, but it's also tough to machine. Thanks a lot for the very interesting video.
I tried to use Koolmist 77 for drilling and I didn't have very much luck at all. I don't have any of the Anchor lube, but I did go back to using oil (Rigid Dark Threading Oil) and it was like night and day. I wonder if the cobalt would really be better? I use cobalt on almost everything but in some applications they just chip too easy and going back to HSS gets it done, although somewhat slower. I'm thinking they may chip on the break through, but maybe not.
I did 1/4 ar500 for floor on dump trailer...it was interesting to see vs old steel...it was.5 times longer to cut the same length of ar500 thn old steel
The hard spots could be the result of untempered martensite in the microstructure. During quenching after the hardening cycle not all of the transition to martensite from austenite is completed (retained austenite). During the temper cycle or as a result of extended time before tempering the transition to untempered martensite occurs. If the transition isn't complete before tempering it will often occur during the temper. This results in some martensite which is untempered and harder than the surrounding material. One way to curb the problem is to perform a second temper at 50f below the original temper. This should not affect the surrounding material. The double temper is often used for tool steels for this reason. Try heating the hard spot to about 300-325f and see if it softens the material slightly. Cryo treatment has also been used to eliminate retained austenite followed by tempering. Since this is a boron containing alloy there is also a possibility of boron carbides existing in the material. Not quite sure how to handle them. Boron is extremely effective as a hardening agent and is often restricted to
There is always something to learn. I wish I would have went with my gut on the carbide drill, but I learned from that mistake. Everyday has teaching moments, I am glad I could share one of my dumber ones.
Castrol Variocut C Moly Dee is also a total game changer in nasty materials. Just a couple drops and tapping or drilling titanium, steel, stainless or aluminum gets worlds easier. I use it any time I'm nervous about a drilling or tapping cycle. Stuff is magic in a bottle. A quart will last you forever when just applying a drop or two to each tool or hole. It will stain copper/brass if you don't clean it off quickly. But it's freaking crazy how much it improves tap or drill function.
I never center punch AR 500 its work hardening steel so punching it means you're making life hard for yourself from the get go.The MA Ford drills are real problem solvers a great choice.
i dont know anything about anything going on here, however i have snapped a fair few drill bits in my day, i do believe if you had a backer plate of even mild steel behind the ar steel you wouldnt catch a burr while punching thru the other side. cheers.
When you center drill deep like that, the web of the 11/16 drill is unsupported as it enters the work. That is why it's screaming as it starts. You only need a small dimple to guide the main drill as it starts.
This is such interesting content. Nice filming, too. The popping sound shows the pressure required to power feed through this AR plate. The higher feed you tried with the carbide drill probably was the problem. Carbide doesn't like sudden increases or decreases in pressure. I wonder if a rotabroach would do better in this situation. The tip of a twist drill limits the advance of the cutting lips so you always have problems when it breaks through the bottom of the hold and the tool pressure can be immense. A annular cutter has different geometry in which the feed is controlled only by the quill position. They're easy to overfeed but it might work really well in the radial drill, on account of the power feed system. BTW, when plasma cutting this stuff, the non-uniform nature of the material causes magnetic eddies that divert the plasma as it cuts through. It's terrible stuff to work with.
50 years ago I worked at a company that used the UK equivalent only it was 35 mm or 50 mm depending on the machines the plates were fitting all sorts of funny shapes to be flame cut. Some were a one of others were similar a group of 4 or 5 on repeat the repeat jobs were done on a very early CNC machine it was used for drilling specialist Magnetic Chuck's for Blanchard type equipment and Auto Demag Chuck's for Auto Motive use ie Con Rod's and the like. I specised in Machine Shop usage at Tech, was Design Draftdman for years
I wonder how anchorlube mixed with some cool mist would work as it could be constantly applied , biggest problem with any lube is getting and keeping it at the cutting edge all the time . That anchorlube looks like it works really great , I am going to get a bottle of that and try it . I had to drill two 3/4" holes in the draw bar of a newer John Deere tractor , it is very hard , and would work harden as soon as the drill bit even got a little dull , as soon as the chip changed I stopped and resharpened the drill , about every eighth inch of depth of the hole and I step drilled from a small hole of 1/8" to 1/4" to 1/2" to 3/4" had to do a lot of re-sharping of drills to get though 1 1/4" thickness of the draw bar , slowly was the only way it would drill and not work harden . I would not trust that magnet to much lifting them large plates and be close enough to get hit if it didn't hold and drop the plate and get your legs or feet that would be very bad , maybe put a sling or chain around it after it is lifted up a bit and remove it just before setting it down , just as a safety . Big Iron will win every time if you are in the way .
I don't know if you could thin the anchorlube enough to mist, but pile it on, that might work. I tested the magnet thoroughly and even have a video of some of it. I still keep a safe distance, but it should be well safe for these light plates.
I would like to see a followup of similar drilling with lessons learned. Also, does the high cost of drilling without spot annealing payback in surface wear time. Also as a comment noted, depth of counter sink effect on life.
Oh man.....AR500 will give you grey hair for sure !! I would usually grind a very shallow point on my drill....not quite flat, but close. It would get the job done usually. Sometimes you need to anneal but i would flood the hell out of it and keep it cool and just take my time. Rock on Josh ! Oh and buy the best drills you can afford. It helps .
All of my grey hairs are from step kids. Lol. I asked about spot annealing but it was shot down. It needed to be hard. It really didn't go bad once I used the anchorlube. Surprising how much that changed the process
I shure hope it was worthwhile- sounds like cooking noodles that "drill a hole there and there" but the devil is in the details. That big ass column that carries the drill head is impressive. I have a drill stand like my dad, it´s next to 50ys old, I like it a lot because it don´t flex as much as todays. It´s got a solid column, too. I got it in a pile of trash but I instantly knew what I had there. Good job, Josh!
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***RUNOUT***. The runout you are seeing is the "Magic Chuck". It's a quick change tool holder. It allows tool change without stopping the spindle. They are great for a lot of things, just not carbide. Lol. My mistake and lesson learned.
That makes sense. I have broken more than a couple of expensive carbide mill tools in my day. Always makes me shed a tear. In my experience MA Ford makes excellent carbide tools. Some of the highest quality tooling i've used. My problem has always been similar in that I have smalle machines that sometimes do not offer the rigidity needed and a little vibration breaks small carbide dovetail cutters and drills easily.
Dear Josh, that was the first thing I noticed even before the first hole was drilled.....
runout on the spindle......and of course, you ended up relearning Carbide does not
like runout......But !!!, that carbide bit can be resharpened.....Sorry for your loss.....
but hopefully a gain for some viewers.....I have found keeping the AR plate cool
is very important too, as it will harden even more if you do not feed and cool correctly...
Best Wishes, you motivate me with every video you do.....Paul
R.I.P. Carbide
May have already been mentioned previously, but generally it's best not to use carbide (or at least carbide shank) tool in a drill chuck. With the jaws being softer than the tool they will deform bit by bit and increase the risk of slipping.
Carbide tip on a spade drill might be a good option for something like this. You still have the lower shock resistance of carbide in the tip, but it's overall more forgiving and less expensive (provided you can stop the cut when something goes wrong) than solid WC. I've seen some disasters and near disasters occur with the combination
in Inconel 625, though I think it's a matter of bad programming more than anything else.
Hey josh. Use to do alot of these plates. We made the holes and the countersink with the plasma cutter since precision is not the name of the game on those jobs. Way cheaper way quicker.
We've drilled many holes in AR plates. We used a carbide hole hog bit. Then a counter sink bit. Using a mag drill. The hole hog bit only cut the periphery and left a plug. The cheek plates in most of our crushers were 3/4 thick and used 3/4 counter sink bolts.
Good luck.
At least those carbide annular cutters are inexpensive compared to solid carbide drills, if you do ruin a few of them.
They can be run on drills or mills using appropriate arbors, which is something I do often.
Never had to work with AR500 however.
I cut AR500 before. It's safe to say that carbide doesn't last on this stuff. I haven't tried the hanita coated carbide endmills on it, but I can't imagine that they would last significantly longer.
I drilled a lot of holes in AR500 plate with a mag drill and Slugger annular cutters. I've drilled holes in forklift forks with them. Countersinks were more of a problem. We found AR plate hardness to be too inconsistent so we switched to Astralloy EB450 plate. We had to torch holes and weld the plates down but they lasted 4 to 5 times as long as AR500.
A while ago i had to drill a lot of 3/8 holes in HRC61 material. My supplier provided me with a pair of carbide drills. His instructions were. Max out the speed on the drill press.(1200 rpm) Keep a constant feed rate,no manual feed.And certainly no coolant at all. The carbide went through the material like butter. I returned the second drill because i didn't need it.
thats awesome.
yep I agree about speed and feed. Scares the pants of me but it worked well. get speed and feeds from your drill supplier if it breaks send it back as not fit for porpoise better still we used to get the tooling rep to come and demonstrate the tool he was recommending at his peril, it was very telling how they would change recommendations when demonstrating their tools
@@chisdalton9652 I would love it if a tooling rep would come out. I can't even get them to return phone calls or emails. I always have to figure it out myself. I guess it's just part of being in business in the most depressed region of the country.
Used to drill a lot of AR500 plates for a mill. We didn't use any slugger bits, but we did try carbide on our 4ft carlton. The same thing happened when we tried the carbide bit. Snapped the bit on the first cut. Had luck with cobalt bits. You had to keep constant pressure on the bit. If you let the bit ride in the cut just for a second it would get hard fast and take the edge off. We did maybe 400 to 500 pcs at a time. A couple of holes my guys had trouble with, I heated with a torch and ran the cobalt bit thru hot. Had to keep the edge sharp. Yes they were a pain in the keyster.
Josh, Love your Channel. I have drilled Thousands of Holes in AR 500 Plate. This was our procedure. Using a Radial Drill or Mag Drill we ALWAYS first ground off the Mill Scale. This increased the life of the Cutter. We would always use a Cobalt Annular Cutter and a VERY GOOD Cutting OIl, Coolant never worked that well. The more we flooded it with the Oil the better it did. TURNING SLOW. Then used a Cobalt Countersink flooded with Oil. Not trying to Criticize but this worked for us and drilled thousands of holes
Great information. Thanks.
Slow is key
Absolutely love that radial drill press
Seems like a lot of play or runout when its idling .. 🤔
I always hand thin the web so there's as little rubbing in the center as possible. Reduces the feed pressure a lot. More harder the material, more shallow back rake helps too. Also, I NEVER use center drills but use Spotting drills for a starter, which are much more rugged and don't shatter the point. Center drills break unpredictably it seems. I only use them for center holes on the lathes.
....and you are absolutely right !
They are called centre drills for a reason...and the tips break off easily so not a good choice here at all... 😲
So I know a guy that moved from Australia to Thailand, he works at a place that builds armoured cars.
What he would've done for this is sharpen a concrete drill on a diamond or CBN wheel. You can make the tip so it can cut into the steel.
I used to make oilfield bitbreaker plates (they locked the drill bit so the tongs could screw or unscrew the the pipe from them) out of AR500 and A514. These plates were about 14x14 and had a horseshoe shaped notch in the middle about 7" wide for the bit to go in. We drilled the handle and lock bar holes with Iscar Chamdrills with thru coolant and did the machining with Mitsubishi feed mills for roughing and MA Ford 6 flute solid carbide endmills. We ran full flood coolant along with airblast to evacuate the chips. Stuff actually cut nice and would only kill the tools when you could not evacuate the chips fast enough.
Nice work you are doing there.
I've milled AR a lot over the years with no real issue. Other shops won't even touch it. It's really not that bad once you figure it out. But yes, getting the chip away is a big key to success.
Why AR? Hardox would suffice.
Made a large bore in AR plate. Saw a perfectly round shadow in the side wall. It looked like a bearing in the melt, 😅. Tough job. Had a nasty small drill in hardened SStl. After pulling a lot of hair tried HS drills as a last resort. Worked. Live and learn. Thanks
Wait a minute yes Mr. Topper IS Working Hard, yet he is having a blast doing this job. Seeing you literally diving right in made me smile. As always get it done and done right the first time.
😊
You know it is a big job when you're sitting on top of the work while drilling or machining it. Haha!
When you can't reach the controls. Lol
That’s an additional 200# clamping force!
@@scpvrr I'm a little fatter than that. LOL
I spent a Saturday night sitting on top of a 2”plate weldment, drilling 1 1/2” diameter holes. I needed a step ladder to get on the weldment. I was using a 12’ Carlton radial. That was big work!
I've stood on a drill table scooping chips with a flat bottom shovel into a 4 yard skip the trolleycrane sets down.
That was a big job !
I had the same problem yesterday trying to use a carbide drill on some stainless. I had 4 holes to drill and about 1/2 way through the second hole with a brand new carbide drill from Haas one flute on the carbide drill snapped off at the tip. Dang it those drills are expensive! I only had one of those drills on hand but since I had the job set up on my mill I was able to use a center cutting end mill to get the job done. Still frustrating to waste a brand new carbide drill. Good on you for taking on that AR500 project.
Great job! I have done the same exact thing With a carbide tipped annular cutter and a regular carbide twist drill. Carbide is definitely the only way to go when you have a lot of holes to do.
I worked in a foundry and would make where plates for conveyors out of ar 500. Would use a mag drill and annular cutter. Run it slow with coolant. If she getts hot, you will break tooling.
I have a tungsten tipped three-quarter inch annular cutter which I used to drill holes in a cutting edge for a excavator bucket. It was $200 20 years ago. Worked a treat. I still have it
I'll have to look into one.
@@TopperMachineLLC
It’s 1030 at night here in Queensland Australia. I’ll have a look in the workshop in the morning and post the manufacturers details to you. I’m pretty sure it was made in America. Cheers
@@davidcat1455 sounds good. Thanks.
X2 on a tungsten carbide tooth annular cutter. I've never used them on AR steel before but I have used them drilling hundreds of 1/2" holes in 304ss. Also used a 2-1/4" cutter to drill out several plasma cut holes in 1.5" plate with amazing results. I have a job this week using some 5/8" AR400 and I will try drilling a scrap piece and will let you know the results. Walter, Fein Slugger, and Hougen make good quality cutters.
Yeah cutting edges are very hard to cut through it especially the edge plates
Pilot hole and cutting oil makes a world of difference even with a mag drill and HSS bits on AR material. Never used solid carbide only because it was not available. Ya, we had to re-sharpen but not a lot. With the run out you have, an annual cutter may hang up as well.
Thanks for sharing.
That runout was the "Magic Chuck" I should have just put it rigid in the spindle. Carbide was worth trying, and I may do it again, but HSS with the anchorlube was amazing.
I always have to drill stuff that is harder than woodpecker lips. At work, the mack e7 engine runs m14 exhaust manifold studs that are stainless and have gone through a million heat cycles. I have some carbide tipped bits that I actually get from Amazon. I also use concrete bits that I sharpen on my green stone. Both work good and are cheap. You can resharpen that carbide bit on a green stone as well.
We used to do similar jobs except on 1" material. We discovered that a carbide step drill worked well with old school high sulphur cutting oil. How did your carbide drill do when you cut it back and reground it? Love seeing someone completing a task that has others stumped!
I didn't regrind the carbide. I went back to HSS. Slow and good feed and lubed well.
You got to love the RAD's for what they can Handel, I love the "Magic Chuck" some of the jobs I would run would have a lot of different size holes , threads and a lot of steps to do under the RAD. Made up a tool rack to hold the tooling being used beside the drill , locate the spot and do the hole complete then move to the next spot and repeat.
Would use soap stone to highlight the lay out spots so I didn't have to look to hard for the next hole, (on some things I have gotten smarter as I have aged ) I look forward to your posts each week.
Also Thanks for getting you Big snow blower up and running this year, it's done a great job down here in the state line.
Only hade to use mine two or three times this year.
Be safe
That wobby in your drillchuck surely made fast work out of your carbide drillbit.. Carbide drills like rigidity, they absolutely hate extra side pressure. I am almost certain it wouldn't have broken if it was actually running somewhat true..
*edit* Ah i see you even mentioned it would have worked with more rigidity on the boring mill, 100% agree
This was entirely my mistake. I should have had it in a proper rigid mount instead of my "Magic Chuck". They are great for quick changes but are far from rigid. Expensive lesson to learn. After it broke I realized why. But, HSS worked great and did the job. A much cheaper alternative to carbide.
@@TopperMachineLLC You learn out of mistakes and to be fair you could regrind that carbide drill. (a drillbit grinder would be the best obviously) i have freestyled and reground carbide with hand and it does work but man is it hard to remove material without the proper wheel in the bench grinder.
@@FireGodSpeed Be careful grinding ANY carbide, as carbide dust is toxic!
Good ventilation and or vacuum is a must!
This brought back memories for me. Decades ago I was a mechanical engineer in a plant that made asphalt paving equipment and we specified 3/8” AR plate for [consumable] screed liners. They were drilled and countersunk similar to your job. We used HSS Cobalt drills and countersinks for 1/2” FH fasteners. The machinist used a pilot drill and clearance drill in a machine very similar to yours along with a buttload of cutting oil. Thanks for posting.
Funny you should mention asphalt equipment. The second shop I worked at built rollers. I became their lead machinist, and later when I left to start my own shop they were my first customer. They are now gone due to a partnership with a greedy 90+ year old a-hole. Destroyed a company with almost 150 years of history. Sad. .
@@TopperMachineLLC The only thing worse than drilling AR was bending it (also part of our process). Regrettably it's not so unusual for a company to take a bad turn after a leadership change. Glad you were able to break out and succeed in your own shop. Not everyone can do that.
@@Dogfather66227 I've bent it before. Oh what fun. Lol. Honestly I have no idea how I've survived in this economically depressed region, but I'm still kicking.
Probably because you ask if something you are going to buy will pay it's way and stay away from credit. It helps that you do quality work for what I assume is a fair price.
I'm a believer in step drilling. I shoot for a 1/4-1/3 of diameter with each step. The harder the material the SLOWER I go. I've not found carbide drills or mills to be the answer. A sharp HS or Cobalt will tolerate the "slop" or vibrations.
I've also found drilling into a backup block of oak or even steel. the cutting edges just don't like the material as it thins and frequently hardens at the break thru.
I'm not a fan of misting or water based coolant for the heavier drilling work and generally use cutting oil.
That carbide drill looked like it was a flat bottom drill. I think a split point drill would have been much better. Less walking I think since you engage at one point. Good thing I get my carbide and HSS tools from auctions. They may sometimes be used a bit, but are generally in good shape and much cheaper than $150 per drill… just saying that hurt. Using HSCO drills is a better option I think. It is not worth using the carbide unless you are sure your setup is as rigid as a mountain. Great video though, really love seeing that drilling machine in action!
I cut that with plasma. What I found that after the big mills stopped producing. The smaller ones use bearing races and anything to get it into range. I've had chemical docs on mine that varied from Chrome-Molly to others that were more fibrinous. AR is anti-abrasion. 500 is registered and BHN
Really cool shot with the drill bit penetrating from below with the light and cool mist from above 👍😎👍
Thanks, I thought that would be neat.
I’ve mag drilled and countersunk Hardox 450 similar to what you’re doing. I’ve found cobalt cutters to work the best for me. They stayed sharp longer than the carbide or didn’t break as soon. But when they’re done they’re done. Snap. Cheaper too than carbide TiN coated stuff
I was going to tell you to use cutting fluid instead of mist cooler. But you figured at out.....Also could you drill pilot hole first with 1/4? carbide bit after the center drill. A old timer told me one day Slow Speed and Heavy Feed and when the bit starts to cut keep going and don't stop until you are though..
Carbide isn't always the best choice. A while ago, I bought a carbide tipped hole saw to cut some holes in 18 gauge steel. The teeth ripped off on the first hole, so I got a HSS hole saw and had no problems with it for the rest of the job.
We do a lot of plate armor at work. Water jet , plasma cutter and drilling. My favorite drill bits are masonry bits. They seem to last for a long time and I usually use Anchor Lube for drilling myself. You are doing a great job with the hard material.
yeah.For manuel stuff masonry bits are great.Regrind them on the Diamond and they work like a dream. ANd cause of the steel body,they dont really brake easily
Masonry bits. Tough, shatter resistant carbide on a tough steel shank. Makes sense.
So i actually recently figured this out at work. I did this in a bridgeport that is well past its prime. use a helical 59921endmill, and pluge with it at 200 rpm and lots of air. I use them in the cnc but needed it in the bridgeport for a fabrication. I only use the 3/8 size but get whatever you want and adjust your rpm accordingly
I would love to see you use the anchorlube with the carbide drill bit.
I was wondering if it would work or not.
Free hand drill bit sharpening that actually works/cuts with a bare minimum steady rest is a lost art, you got my attention and respect with this move. Ray Stormont
As per your pinned comment, runnout. Carbide has to run perfectly true or its doomed. And the jacobs chuck is designed to bite into a soft shank of a drill. Carbide doesn't allow the chuck to properly grip. Carbide is best ran in a collet if you can make an adapter of some sort to work on your drill.
I had a lot of bad things going on here. I have more tooling on order to remedy some of this. But also a video for Tuesday that will go over what happened and who. Basically, I knew I couldn't have done this, but thought it would be ok. Dumb mistake that I hope everyone can learn from. Especially myself.
Tough drilling job nicely done.
Suggest using a high quality cobalt HSS (M42, 8% cobalt) 135 degree split point drill for wonky hard material like this. Carbide is brittle and will shatter if a hard spot is hit hard. Carbide is sensitive to set up rigidity. If anything walks, the carbide drill will likely shatter.
Possible that broken carbide drill could be sent back to M.A. Ford for re-grind.
Stuff like this is no fun at all.
I have not worked with a ton of AR plate so take my thoughts for what they're worth.
I've never had much for luck with solid carbide twist drills. Exact same issue you had. Either the straight flute (hi-roc drill in MA Ford terminology) or the duck bill shaped solid carbide spades have performed a LOT better for me and are a lot harder to mess up.
I've also had extremely good luck with a cheap indexable countersink off ebay that used SCMT lathe inserts. I've had it for years now and I'd be surprised if it cost me more than $20. Lot less painful to chip an insert than a solid carbide countersink
Now this is purely theory for the rest, but if I had thia job show up here, I'd be really tempted to try either carbide blades in the Allied T/A spade drills, or a replacable head drill such as Kennametal K tip (whatever version of that is available from whoever you buy indexable tooling through)
I wish you had tried Tap Magic, sure it will make a bit of a mess, but it is a game changer.
I can try it next time, I have a bottle for special stuff. The anchorlube worked amazingly well.
Don't get sucked in by marketing wank. Oil is oil.
I have a bottle, and it does work well on some stuff. I can almost tell by the smell that is has Kerosene in it. I bet if I looked through some of my old books, I could find a recipe. But then I would have to take time to mix it. Cheaper to just buy a bottle when needed.
I enjoyed seeing the RAD getting a little workout! Nicely done.
I hate drilling holes, but I like the radial drill. Lol
Good machines make crap work halfway enoyable, crap machines make even good jobs unbearable yeah
Hi mate. Love your video's. I work in mining where our liner plates are 2" bisaloy 800. All holes are countersunk within 3mm (1/8") of the bottom of the hole. This gives the full thickness of the wear plate to be consumed. Remember once the head of the screw is gone, so is the liner plate. Sink the screws deeper.
Great job. Kinda funny to watch you using a carpenter's tape measure and a drywall square to lay it out... when pretty much everything else you do has to be so precise. 😁😆
Yeah, there was no precision on this one. Within 1/4" is all they asked for. My guess is the mating holes are oversized or worn out.
When i used to drill and tap ar plate i found that castrol moly d, slow spindle speed and manual feed worked best for me.
You’ve got it sorted for next time Josh 👍👍👍👍
Every job teaches you something. Some teach you not to do the job again and some teach you ways to be better.
Josh, others may comment, however even on your first hole, as you lowered the quill, I saw quite a lot of spindle and or chuck run out, guessing 1/16”…
something I suspect didn’t help with carbide drills! Lateral movement and carbide is a recipe for broken drills.
Might be the chuck, or whatever. Great pragmatic content, making do with what you have. Best!
It was the "Magic Chuck". If I'd have run a better holder right in the spindle it would have worked better.
We did a lot of abrasion-resistant (AR) plates as hopper liners. You use a plasma torch to counter-sink after the holes are drilled.
I've always drilled bisalloy 500 cutting edges by annealing, where holes go by heating the imitate area red hot top and bottom then letting it cool on its own slowly back totally.this will soften the drilling area so you can drill it with any high speed bit, works every time, cut like butter.
Years ago we were drilling holes in 1in plate no pilot hole, a Prolong rep. had come to the shop we bought a gallon of their cutting oil. We drilled 48 holes no sharpening and looking at the point at the end the bluing hadn't even worn off. I dont know if the product is still produced ,if it is a little goes alooooong way!
Josh, for your next time drilling AR plate use a Keru drill. It's a HSS drill to be ran in a collet (or your magic chuck) with a shoulder to provide a place to provide extra pushing force but yet have that carbide insert on the cutting end. Different sizes and different lengths are available. As always low and slow is the key to cutting that stuff. Anchor Lube is better than the Kool Mister and I recommend using an acid brush and the open jar rather than the squirt bottle, you can get it where you want it and keep it there better. Good luck to you and keep them videos commin
I used to form AR plate. Can be a butt sometimes but it has its uses. I used at a metal shop and have used that Drywall square many times. Works good in a pinch for sure
Michelle is the go-to at KBC!
She is awesome to work with.
So happy to see the comparison between coolant mist and anchor lube. I was wondering how it would do. 👍🏻
I would think that an annular cutter either cobalt or carbide tipped would be the hot tip for that job. Well, a laser or waterjet would be ideal, but ...
I cut MO-Max tool cutting tools with solid carbide and never had a problem. It got red hot but drilled. It cooled and was sharp. Speed and pressure was to much. And any runout will wobble the drill and put side loads on the tip. Take/send the drill to a regrind shop. It will be a bit shorter, but viable.
This is the wear resistant stuff we sent to Iran for an Iron Ore Mining facility, some of the chutes even had additional liners made from recycled plastics pressed into sheets to try to save the AR500.
Hello from Aus. I would suggest you find a drill grinder, they are cheap in the long run with jobs like these. Low rpm like 90 is needed and EP sulpherised straight oil. The best drill I have found is the NAS-907 aircraft drill. Regards BC.
You can try getting cheap 2-flute impact stone drills with the carbide tip. Sharpen the tip for metal and drill. They stand hard stuff and are dirt cheap. Machinist shops buy those in bulk to drill hardox (ar equivalent)
Back in my shipyard days we drilled at max 100 rpm and cooled with petroleum. But those were 40-50 mm diameter drills.
Josh, thanks so much for adding the Anchor Lube at the end...
guess I will need to get some Anchor Lube.....Cheers...PB
My old boss use to hate the smell of sulfur cutting oil in the shop so he had our shop try Anchor Lube back in the eighties? We all were amazed at how it improved cutting on most shop machines, No smell and was easily thinned and/or washed away with plain old water.
Just don't let straight Anchor Lube sit too long on your material, as it has a tendency to stain where ever left on.
Hi Topper. Just a suggestion when sharpening your drill bit try less than 118 degrees almost flat and reduce the speed rpms . It worked for me in similar hard plates.
I bought a sheet of AR500 plate back in the day. I got a 4'X8'X1\2 peice and was making snow plow cutting edges 6" X 8' I was able to cut it with a plasma cutter but got a rude awaking when i started to drill the holes to bolt it on. Had to end up cutting them with the plasma cutter as well. Thats some hard stuff.
Reminds me of when I had to drill and tap some plate that gripped the taps and stripped the holes I was trying to make.
Foreman claimed it was reclaimed ship plate steel.
Scrapped several pieces.
Finally got to do it with some red powder that mixed with water to make a red liquid.
Weird stuff.
For really hard stuff I have a few of the Kennametal KSEM drills. I find them much more forgiving and cheaper than solid carbide drills.
Wow, hard stuff. Ive never worked with AR plate but have with BIZ alloy 60 or 80 wear plate. Maybe a plot drill prior to finished sized drill. And mark out and drill all plates (with others underneth) in one movement. The try countersinking with mag base drill. Worth a try if you get similar jobs. Keep up the great work. From Rob down under.
If they were all flat, stack drilling would help. But they had some bows.
Hell ya Josh. This video was extremely helpful
My choice would of been an inserted carbide drill like an Iscar Cham drill. It would of been cheaper and gives an opportunity to wreck an insert or two trying it out. Also I have seen 2insert 45 degree milling tools used as countersinks in this application. Squeals a bit but works well.
That radial is possibly lifting under the drill force before the slack takes up, workhardening the surface, or maybe not, but it can definitely be an issue on those machines, my advice in that case would be to feed and keep feeding all the way, maybe even hand feed so you can ease off at the bottom and not get a rapid break through.
We would normally countersink leaving a .040” or so of straight hole at the bottom giving maximum wear to the plate. Makes it harder to do though as you have to go a lot deeper.
Allied spade drills are the most profitable thing I've bought for my shop.
Far better split point and geometry than you can get with hand grinding drills, thru coolant, coated, and they'll out last a twist drill 10:1.
I love them. I have several sizes and use the crap out of them for roughing bores on the lathe. They cut so accurate that I have a few parts I just finish with the spade drill bore. I did a batch of parts that finish bore was 2" +/- 0.005, The spade drilled 2.002-2.003 consistently and smooth. My customer was thrilled.
Josh,
Great video!! It’s been my experience when drilling challenging materials to use a spot drill instead of a center drill.
I have been meaning to order some. Just haven't gotten to it yet.
Solid carbide needs ridgity, but only one way to find out.
Tough material, definitely hard on tooling, drill chisel edge has to force it's way through, near zero rpm, very little cutting action as is my understanding , thinning, or pilot drill, though several subscribers have suggested annular cutters, which sound a better option, ref uniform SFM.
Thanks for showing warts and all Josh.
If those plates and hole patterns are all the same, I would have stacked them and tack welded them together and drilled all 3 at once, then countersink the top plate, break tack, remove and countersink # 2 then the same for #3. My experience is that the drill usually breaks or goes chips when it breaks through the hole and catches the edge of the material and wants to deflect. By drilling all 3 at once you only have the drill breaking through the hole one time.
I also considered this, but I have also had stack drilling end badly. Mostly because the plates are not truely flat to one another. You still get some of that break through chatter when there is a little gap. If they all sat good and flat to one another, I would have done that.
Thanks for putting up the video. That is one expensive drill bit. I'm noticing some wobbling of the drill holder OD. This is visible also on the HSS drill shank on close-ups. Maybe there is nothing but maybe there is something to look into? A rigid carbide might not tolerate such high side loads
That is the "Magic Chuck". It's a quick change holder that isn't super tight.
I have been making snow blade edges out of 450 hardox. Cutting the size of the edge and the square hole for plow bolts on the plasma table. Everything from 1/4" to 3/4" and from 2 inches wide and six feet long to 8 inches wide and 8 feet long. Cutting a square hole with the plasma means heat being put into the cut so I didnt think a solid carbide countersink would stand up to the shock of hitting every side of a square hole so I went with 82 degree countersink with carbide inserts. Works better on the mill than it did on the mag drill which didn't quite have enough rigidity although it did work.. I just set my rpm to about 160 and feed rate to start at about 6 thou per and just let it work until I could get to depth. .No cutting fluid or coolant and got some nice golden curls.
Good job. I hated seeing you break your new bit. Darn hard stuff. I used a piece of 5/8" X 5" X 50" AR for a cutting edge on a tilt bucket I built for my excavator. I think I drilled six 1/2" holes. That was prior to my mag drill but might have been a motivating factor in the purchase. LOL!
Thanks for the video.
I was gonna suggest the anchorlube, have seen other machines use it. Good call, good work.
Josh,
Great videos and thank you. I have made a good amount of mull boards for dozer blades and loader buckets. I have had good success with using a carbide tip annular cutter and a mag drill, or an annular cutter in an arbor on a Bridgeport. They are definitely cheaper
Don’t forget your hearing protection 😮. There were a couple of those holes I had to take my headphone off 😂. Great results!!!
Ear plugs are used almost everyday. I buy in bulk!
Just ordered some Anchorlube. Thanks for the heads up !
When I was working at a waterjet company this was the kind of job we would jump all over.
AR500 has a Brinell hardness of 480+ ! I was really amazed at how that carbide mill went through it, independent of the runout problem. Abrasion resistant steel is tough stuff, but it's also tough to machine. Thanks a lot for the very interesting video.
I want to use the magnetic drill with carbide core cutters, did a lot of that work, you may have to shorten their drill a couple times
I tried to use Koolmist 77 for drilling and I didn't have very much luck at all. I don't have any of the Anchor lube, but I did go back to using oil (Rigid Dark Threading Oil) and it was like night and day. I wonder if the cobalt would really be better? I use cobalt on almost everything but in some applications they just chip too easy and going back to HSS gets it done, although somewhat slower. I'm thinking they may chip on the break through, but maybe not.
The break through is the worst part of drilling this plate.
I did 1/4 ar500 for floor on dump trailer...it was interesting to see vs old steel...it was.5 times longer to cut the same length of ar500 thn old steel
The hard spots could be the result of untempered martensite in the microstructure. During quenching after the hardening cycle not all of the transition to martensite from austenite is completed (retained austenite). During the temper cycle or as a result of extended time before tempering the transition to untempered martensite occurs. If the transition isn't complete before tempering it will often occur during the temper. This results in some martensite which is untempered and harder than the surrounding material. One way to curb the problem is to perform a second temper at 50f below the original temper. This should not affect the surrounding material. The double temper is often used for tool steels for this reason. Try heating the hard spot to about 300-325f and see if it softens the material slightly. Cryo treatment has also been used to eliminate retained austenite followed by tempering. Since this is a boron containing alloy there is also a possibility of boron carbides existing in the material. Not quite sure how to handle them. Boron is extremely effective as a hardening agent and is often restricted to
Thinning the web on the drill by about 2/3 would allow it to cut freer too. Something to try.
~ BEGINNERS NEED "EVEN SOME PROS" TO WATCH THIS MAN CLOSE AND YOU WILL LEARN~RIGHT & QUICK !!!
There is always something to learn. I wish I would have went with my gut on the carbide drill, but I learned from that mistake. Everyday has teaching moments, I am glad I could share one of my dumber ones.
As we expressed in another video, what magic is this anchor lube..... Thanks for the video. Happy weekend
Castrol Variocut C Moly Dee is also a total game changer in nasty materials. Just a couple drops and tapping or drilling titanium, steel, stainless or aluminum gets worlds easier. I use it any time I'm nervous about a drilling or tapping cycle. Stuff is magic in a bottle. A quart will last you forever when just applying a drop or two to each tool or hole. It will stain copper/brass if you don't clean it off quickly. But it's freaking crazy how much it improves tap or drill function.
I never center punch AR 500 its work hardening steel so punching it means you're making life hard for yourself from the get go.The MA Ford drills are real problem solvers a great choice.
i dont know anything about anything going on here, however i have snapped a fair few drill bits in my day, i do believe if you had a backer plate of even mild steel behind the ar steel you wouldnt catch a burr while punching thru the other side. cheers.
Nothing sucks like breaking a new $140 drill bit great video and experience
When you center drill deep like that, the web of the 11/16 drill is unsupported as it enters the work. That is why it's screaming as it starts. You only need a small dimple to guide the main drill as it starts.
This is such interesting content. Nice filming, too. The popping sound shows the pressure required to power feed through this AR plate. The higher feed you tried with the carbide drill probably was the problem. Carbide doesn't like sudden increases or decreases in pressure. I wonder if a rotabroach would do better in this situation. The tip of a twist drill limits the advance of the cutting lips so you always have problems when it breaks through the bottom of the hold and the tool pressure can be immense. A annular cutter has different geometry in which the feed is controlled only by the quill position. They're easy to overfeed but it might work really well in the radial drill, on account of the power feed system. BTW, when plasma cutting this stuff, the non-uniform nature of the material causes magnetic eddies that divert the plasma as it cuts through. It's terrible stuff to work with.
50 years ago I worked at a company that used the UK equivalent only it was 35 mm or 50 mm depending on the machines the plates were fitting all sorts of funny shapes to be flame cut. Some were a one of others were similar a group of 4 or 5 on repeat the repeat jobs were done on a very early CNC machine it was used for drilling specialist Magnetic Chuck's for Blanchard type equipment and Auto Demag Chuck's for Auto Motive use ie Con Rod's and the like. I specised in Machine Shop usage at Tech, was Design Draftdman for years
I wonder how anchorlube mixed with some cool mist would work as it could be constantly applied , biggest problem with any lube is getting and keeping it at the cutting edge all the time .
That anchorlube looks like it works really great , I am going to get a bottle of that and try it .
I had to drill two 3/4" holes in the draw bar of a newer John Deere tractor , it is very hard , and would work harden as soon as the drill bit even got a little dull , as soon as the chip changed I stopped and resharpened the drill , about every eighth inch of depth of the hole and I step drilled from a small hole of 1/8" to 1/4" to 1/2" to 3/4" had to do a lot of re-sharping of drills to get though 1 1/4" thickness of the draw bar , slowly was the only way it would drill and not work harden .
I would not trust that magnet to much lifting them large plates and be close enough to get hit if it didn't hold and drop the plate and get your legs or feet that would be very bad , maybe put a sling or chain around it after it is lifted up a bit and remove it just before setting it down , just as a safety .
Big Iron will win every time if you are in the way .
I don't know if you could thin the anchorlube enough to mist, but pile it on, that might work. I tested the magnet thoroughly and even have a video of some of it. I still keep a safe distance, but it should be well safe for these light plates.
I would like to see a followup of similar drilling with lessons learned. Also, does the high cost of drilling without spot annealing payback in surface wear time. Also as a comment noted, depth of counter sink effect on life.
Tomorrow I have a video sort of like that about the drill and tool holder in the radial
I was going to ask if you had a mag drill. The big radial drill press is much better!
We drill 20/25mm Hardox for cultivator legs just hot spot them with the oxy/acl and use a normal drill no 400$ drill required Josh
That was not an acceptable option. This plate needs to be hard for wear. Giving it soft spots would wear it out faster.
As you said the AR hardness is not consistent. Nice drill frame you made @@TopperMachineLLC
@@theessexhunter1305 thanks. If you missed the video, it was last week.
No I watched it just waited until you had something on it. Stay safe and out of the swarf. Best from the UK@@TopperMachineLLC
Oh man.....AR500 will give you grey hair for sure !! I would usually grind a very shallow point on my drill....not quite flat, but close. It would get the job done usually. Sometimes you need to anneal but i would flood the hell out of it and keep it cool and just take my time. Rock on Josh !
Oh and buy the best drills you can afford. It helps .
All of my grey hairs are from step kids. Lol. I asked about spot annealing but it was shot down. It needed to be hard. It really didn't go bad once I used the anchorlube. Surprising how much that changed the process
Great job as usual! I was wondering if you had or were going to try the Anchor Lube. Looks like it really came through! I was pleasantly surprised.
I shure hope it was worthwhile- sounds like cooking noodles that "drill a hole there and there" but the devil is in the details.
That big ass column that carries the drill head is impressive. I have a drill stand like my dad, it´s next to 50ys old, I like it a lot because it don´t flex as much as todays. It´s got a solid column, too. I got it in a pile of trash but I instantly knew what I had there.
Good job, Josh!