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Real Sabres have curves! But how much?
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- Опубликовано: 19 мар 2018
- A look at the curvature of sabres. How much curve many types had, and how it relates to the practice of British Military Sabre.
This is a look at overall trends. Of course there will always be many examples outside the norm.
Well sir I appreciate the use of the metric system
The way I understand it, very curved sabres were used in drawcuts, whereas straight(ish) blades were used more for snapp-cuts (thus requiring mobility in the wrist, which tulwars deliberately impede). Since the prior has a very short range, they tend to be used with shields (or daggers, if no shields are available)
For those interested in the book, I just bought it, but it was hard to find - so:
ISBN-10: 8311120331
ISBN-13: 978-8311120334
Sabres are thicc, but how thicc?
More than most can handle.
Academy of Historical Fencing That's why everyone I know is terrified of them. Literally.
The Mamluk curved saber was an excellent cutting weapon . The French captain Jean Coignet described the devetasting power of the Mamluks and their Shamshirs at the battle of Austerlitz 1805 he said " These mamelukes are excellent horsemen, they can do with their horses whatever they want. With their curved saber, they can cut off a head in just one blow". Accounts from the Egyptian campaign also praised the Mamluks and their formidable blades that can cleave a man to the waist . As you have mentionned highly curved Oriental sabers are not well suited to European swordsmanship and I'm still wondering How British/ French cavalry officers used their fashionable blades in actual combat O.o ?
The video was informative keep up the good work :)
No doubt the Mamluk sword was deadly and effective. As for how British/French used their extremely curved shamshir inspired blades in combat. Well, there was no system in place for teaching the use of that weapon. So I suspect they went with the norms that they were doubt. Which would certainly put them at a disadvantage against more common blades intended for such a style. There are various references in the 18th and 19th century to some British officers training in local styles, and so maybe some of them utilized those techniques. But I suspect the majority made do and probably suffered as a result.
My infantry officer sabre in this style has a 10cm curve exactly.
It feels lovely in the hand- nice weight, pleasant balance, good distal taper etc, but that extreme curve means the point turns back towards you alarmingly, even with a canted grip. And it's very, very pointy!
Just like the first sword I showed. There was a bit of a fashion trend for them among some officers. But yes it is hard to appreciate quite how extreme that amount of curve is until you get it in hand. I'd love some photos and data on it if you would be willing. I keep photos and data here -
www.flickr.com/photos/155366595@N06/albums/with/72157690346713756
I think I may have sent it on Facebook before? If not I'll get around to taking some good photos and adding the stats.
I can't remember it. But then I see so many swords, hard to remember them all. I'd love to have photos and specs to go on the flickr page. That kind of documentation is invaluable.
Nice video and great info.
A great show! Chinese have the Willowleaf & the Goosefeather Sabre. Thanks again!
I wish they would make a reproduction of a 10cm curved 32 or even a 34 inch blade with a European hilt. I have wanted one in that style for 50 years. The sword you had made is what I really like.
It looks nice but I don't like the way it handles at all. Since having that made I've now owned and handled a lot more sabres like it, and they've all been much shorter and lighter, more in the 26-30" range. The problem is the more curve you have, the more blade weight it adds for the equivelent length compared to a straight blade. When you get as wild as 10cm, that extra weight is really noticeable, and then have it on quite a long blade and it is not agile at all, unlike all the originals I've handled with that much curve.
Was the 1796 Light cavalry saber good at fighting on foot ?
Yes. Though not as good as the infantry types based on it. As it was less agile. But it still moves well, strikes hard. Will provide strong opposition to muskets with bayonets etc.
Awesome just subscribed...
Just one thing: if you can't thrust with a sabre, why are they so pointy? If you see this weapon as a cavalry-weapon, than you see, if you sit on a horse, that you mostly thrust beside you, different than a fighter on foot. And even on foot, you can do thrusts, in a short range. Thank you for the very informative video.
Who said you can't thrust with a sabre? That 'fact' is something I come across occasionally and it needs to be purged! What I said in the video is that with extremely curved blades, they are not well suited to the lunge style of attack, especially when using thrusts. And that is the extremely curved blades. Up to about 6cm they work just fine for lunge based thrusting.
I also don't see the sabre as a cavalry weapon. It's use has always been far more widespread than that.
Surely there is a way to measure the curvature with a ratio, rather than in absolute distance. A short very curved blade will be less than 10cms in the arch, and still be more curved than a very long blade with more cms in the curve. In other words, the "radius" alone doesn't tell us the curvature, to get the whole story we also need the "diameter".
Orgikan Something I've come across doing Physics is the "radius of curvature" or the radius of the circle you'd make if a curve went all the round to create a circle. That, as long as the angle of the curve you're given might be another useful way to measure curvature, combined with the angle of the curve.
I wouldn't say that is hugely important based on a lot of handling I have done. Any measure of weight, balance and curve always needs to be taken in relation to the other values to really be understood. So curvature is best understood by knowing the measure and of the curve and the length of the blade, or a simple photo of the weapon. Seeing as the wildly curved sabres usually only vary between about 70-80cm in blade length, the difference is modest. That is the case of the original and reproduction British shamshir inspired blades I showed. The original being 70 and the repro 81. The curve feels and acts just the same, only the length and weight really make the difference.
This method of measuring is a traditional one now that has been standardised and most understand. I think it works, and it's simple to measure and understand for everyone.
More important to the curve in fact is when the curve starts, how extreme that angle is, and how much the grip cants. All things best shown with a photo.
An image helps, for sure. As unfamiliar as I am with sabre typology, or more broadly with curved swords, I feel that a serious indication of the curve would need to include the root-tip length on top of the curve's depth, e.g. something like 8x78cms rather than 8cms.
I think I'd prefer the angle between the actual point and where the point would be if the blade was straight (as measured from the cross guard). 0 degrees is a straight blade, and attempting to read the first saber in the video gives me about 21 degrees.
How much distal taper does an original Shamshir have? My CS replica has none, but is fairly thin (5mm) and thus handle relatively good (not as responsive as my sword, but still quick and much more hard hitting)
Make a video about the Kilij and the use of yelman or the sharpened backside of the curve
Interesting video!! If heavily curved sabers with 7cm curves and up are not ideal for lunge based footwork then what sort of footwork were they using with them? Passing stuff or some sort of "Mike Tyson" slip style to get in close and slice hard?
Passes is a large part yes, but its also a cultural approach to fighting. Look at a lot of what was going on with very curved blades in India and Egypt and they were fighting at closer measure. In Northern Europe, using our styles of 18th/19thc sabre, we judge our distance on the lunge, and how a lunge, or time hit could land. But if neither party is launching those kind of strikes, the dynamic of the fight can be very different.
Another major aspect is that the shamshir and other extremely curved sabres were often used with offhand weapons. A buckler for example, like the separ and dhal. This encourages the use of passing footwork and a closer fight. It also allows the extreme curve to be used in offline thrusting techniques whilst the buckler covers. Techniques that would often be very dangerous with a single sword.
One further aspect is the use of very heavily curved sabres on horseback, where distance can be covered at speed because of the horse. Actions that light cavalry and hussars were famous for.
If You have a straight sword and You chop someone with this sword on a horseback at full speed gallop(speed of horse and Your chop will add up), Your sword can go very deep into body of your opponent and stuck, for example in a bone - and You can lose your sword.
But if You do the same with highly curved sword, especially if You chop with a part of the sword close to the tip, Your chop will transform naturally by itself into a slice.
So, probability that highly curved sword will stuck and You will lose it is much smaller, and You can really whack Your opponents harder.
Beside long slices are better against cloth armor, (gambesons, turbans, thick furs used by Tatars) then chops.
So when firearms become more popular making plate armor largely obsolete, cloth armor become more popular again which made curved swords more viable.
So those 2 reasons, safer at chopping on a horse and better against cloth armor is why in 16th century Poland sabers become so popular.
Before i watch this in my opinion. For a fighting sabre? Very slight. 1845 wilkinson blade type. Cut and thrust is optimized and in a duel you want both. You dont need much curve to get and effective cut. The curve on that first one is for cavellry use so if you hold it down to infantry level the tip is still pointing foward for the thrust. But for an infantry sword ie a fighting sword you only need a slight curve.
How much curve is very much a preferance and or based on style, a lot of wildly curved sabres were used on foot. More curve does also help with edge alignment and provide more draw on the cuts. The larger curve is also used for specific thrusting techniques to work around blade also, so they definitely have a part to play in combat on foot. As ever there isn't a perfect amount, it's hugely dependant on personal preference, style of use and a number of other factors.
A saber (or sable)here is a mostly curved single edged sword but the most important part is the single edged part
Not in English. Single edges swords were really common, called backswords. The vast majority of British made spadroons are also single edged. So is the heavy cavalry Pallasch, the Navy officers sword, the Navy cutlass, sword bayonets etc. As were falchions, some Viking swords etc. Single edged blades have been popular for all sorts of uses across many sword types and cultures.
Im really interested in the americas sabers, especially in the uruguayan argentian and brasilian military sabers, i know that the Spaniard British and French saber probably were influential but i don't know the types on use by the times of the independence wars at the beginning of the19th century. Could you give a general idea?
pacogimanes the saber of San martin haves a pretty deep curve
@@velazquezarmouries It a shamshir
@@laurolavanda1807 I would call it more of a Turkish pala because of the blade shape and prominent yelman
Where can I find one of these ive been looking without any luck help me lol
Sabre on the Balcans is exclusively used for curved blades, actually there were no other long blades exept yataghans , the word sword was long forgotten
El sable de san martin has an extreme curvature
Was curving the sword on average cheaper than keeping it straight (mainly Western Europe for context)?
sure seems that most swords a least in europe tended toward straight, so thatd be opposite your point.
No. The simplest and chespest to make is a non-fullered backsword blade. Which was fairly common in the 16th and 17th century, especially so in Britain.
Is a katana a sabre when you use it in one hand?
It can be used as one, but I wouldn't call it one. In the same way that a bastard sword can be used in one hand, but it doesn't become a one handed sword, or arming/side sword. It is still a bastard sword or (small) longsword. Which is why swords are usually best defined by their characteristics rather than their use. A broadsword or backsword for example can (and were often) used in exactly the same way as a sabre, but that doesn't make them one.
At the same time, we do have often arbitrary definitions today that didn't apply historically. But it is often important for us to do so, because we look back on hundreds and even thousands of years of sword history across a variety of cultures, as opposed to a few in one particular time and place. I have see a 19th century European who encountered the Japanese to call the katana a two handed cutlass. (It usually being more cutlass than sabre length) So even then, the extra grip was significant to its description.
Is a sabre a katana if you use it in two hands?
Levi Fontaine you’re asking the real questions now.
Jackson Almodobar Is a rapier a sidesword if you use it mainly for cutting?
Levi Fontaine Is a straight razor a kriegsmesser if you use it in war?
So i have a German Mensur Sabre known as a Schläger ^^... it has NO curve haha. Is that the reason why some people call it a Proto-rapier?
Proto rapier is one of those odd terms that doesn''t really mean anything and even those who do use it rarely know quite what they mean. The Mensur sabres are just a form of duelling sabre that like the olympic sport sabre, happen to be straight and are quite far removed from the sabre as a military weapon. The mensur sabre is straight for a very different reason to the rapier, as it is used with a rotational cutting action from the hanging guard to launch flick like cutting attacks. It is really it's own thing, a unique duelling form molded by the very strict rules, protection and intentions of the mensur fencing construct.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing yeah :) i always thought that term Proto rapier was wierd. Where did that even come from?
And yes, im aware of some of the rules and how they dueled. There are great stories in "the secret history of the sword". If you can make a video about that form of mensur it would be very nice! Thank you for the answer
proto rapier appears to have come from sword collectors in the early to mid 20th century, and perhaps museums too. It's usually used for the swords that transition between the old medieval one handed sword and the rapier. Today that is commonly called a sidesword, which is also a modern term, but a more helpful one. The Mensur stuff is a bit far from my field to be honest. I'll consider it in the future but I'd want to do a lot more research before such a video. For me, once sabre moves from a military service weapon I am not particularly interested in it.
Was that expert Matt Easton by any chance?
Dr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani who does a lot of work with Persian swords and swordmanship. When Matt and I talk I think its pretty much always about Brit swords, or how he doesn't understand how I don't like French sabres! (I have come around to some of them...)
What's the most curved saber you've ever seen?
Probably this one -
www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=c8.alamy.com/comp/BRGCMA/a-model-1827-sabre-a-privately-purchased-sword-for-a-russian-cavalry-BRGCMA.jpg&imgrefurl=www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-model-1827-sabre-a-privately-purchased-sword-for-a-russian-cavalry-31708616.html&h=1088&w=1300&tbnid=xm30few3z34QWM&tbnh=205&tbnw=245&usg=__KlCB4SB-NwQ6fca8ug58869L9jM=&docid=SWxwf733yzVO0M
Damn that truly is outrageous! Thanks for the quick reply. Do you know how much its curvature is in cm?
I don't sorry. But knowing the length and with a good profile shot like that, it can be estimated. I'd say about 20cm.
I don't think 20cm would ever really be a good idea in any situation or style. I think that was done as an outrageous fashion statement. I am not sure what the limit is on effective curve as I'd have to try some more of the really extremely curved blades. But I suspect about 12-13, maybe as much as 15 is it.
Very curved blades can be great for fighting up close and personal, as in distance from the opponent. But in very cramped spaces, I'd rather have more reasonable curve and a better ability to thrust. Looking at cutlass might really help here, as they were really built for the job. Most cutlass are around 64-73cm in blade length, with with straight blades or a bit of curve.
Wow! It must be a lot of fun putting that back into its scabbard!
curved swords are easier to wear than straight ones.
Friend,
If your Saber's blade is 30'' long while mine is 36'' long and they both have 2.5'' of curve, obviously your Saber is more curved than mine. Few Sabers seem to have blades less than about 32''. The US 1860 Heavy Cavalry Saber with its 36'' blade is the longest that I'm aware of-still…
What is the maximum practical length for a Saber? I rarely look at an edged weapon without wishing that it had another 2'' to 3'' of blade…
…..RVM45
I bet that San martin's saber is at least 8cm of curve
Yep, again a shamshir type. I don't think its quite 10, maybe 8=9cm, but can only estimate from the photos. Though not all shamshir types were as extreme, but a lot were. They were especially popular with high ranking officers. Lord Wellington also carried one, and they become the pattern for British Generals soon after, and still are today.
I like a slight curve. Good for thrusts and strikes. The 1860-1862 us heavy cav saber is quite a monster. Typical American thing "lets just take that and make it bigger"
So, is a Khukuri a saber? ah!
lol. Nope, because it is inward, or forward curving blade. It fits into the same category as the kopis and falcata. They are also usually far too short to to be in the sabre size range.
The real Khazar sabres were almost straight.
Turkic swords curved throw time
Answer : Just a wee bit
Not really. 1cm is a 'wee bit'. And then there is the huge amount that go way beyond that range.
We are entering subjectivism here
No. Have you handled sabres with 1cm of curve and then one with 5cm, 10cm? Small increments make a modest difference. But larger ones can dramatically change the handling, and in many cases, the use of the weapon. The difference between 1 and 10cm curve is not subjective. It is a vast difference in aesthetics, and handling.
It changes the blade length as well.
All hail Poland!
I am going to redpill you : If it has a straight blade but not 2 edges , it is a Machete .
Or a backsword, or a broadsword (which covers both single and double edges). or a pallasch. And potentially a cutlass, hanger, spadroon........
In almost all examples of those blades that I have seen , the had a back edge .Perhaps unused or blunted but they had one .
Yes most do. Though those with hatchet tips don't, and many asymmetrical tipped blades generally. But either way, most curved swords have some small back edge too, sharpened or not. There is often nothing to tell between a backsword and a sabre blade, besides one is straight and the other is not.
I think that can be a be a big difference .
Which part and how?