ONE of these devs really don't know WTF they are doing.. Is it KIT plugins MO-Q or UAD Hitsville EQ?
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- Опубликовано: 26 июл 2024
- ONE of these devs really don't know WTF they are doing.. Is it KIT plugins MO-Q or UAD Hitsville EQ?
2 motown eq's.. one from blackbird studios and other from hitsville. They should measure pretty much the same right?
My name is Paul Third and I am a Scottish youtuber / audio engineer / mixing engineer / audio geek. I mostly cover audio engineering related content ranging from audio plugin shootouts / plugin comparisons (acustica audio plugins, universal audio etc etc) to actual analog vs digital / gear vs plugins plugin tests via access analog and mix analog. I even include ddmf plugindoctor tutorials in my plugin reviews so you can be your very own plugin tester and experiment and understand whats actually going on under the hood. I also discuss digital music distribution from time to time and like to give my viewpoint on online music distributors such as onerpm and distrokid.
All of my audio blind tests involving music production software are conducted in avid pro tools 2021 which is my main daw and I also use HOFA blind test 4U as my blind test software. In terms of my audio interface I record and monitor through my audient id44 and use an audio technica AT2050 for all of my voice overs.
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📖 CHAPTERS
0:00 intro
0:22 kits prior failings
1:55 AUDIO BULLSH*T DETECTED
3:04 frequency response and the 'analog' HPF
5:10 motown eq's custom circuit design for interdependence
6:36 wtf is that phase response?
8:28 so is the kit motown eq emulation just a linear digital eq?
11:14 but what about modelled transformer behaviour and non-linearity?
13:10 surely they modelled the analog clipping though?
15:00 so is the kit mo-q snake oil or just 'analog tolerances'
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For anybody interested in some audio bullshit detected based clobber. Check out the links in my description for my new merch store which is also available on my website which is also now public 🤓
You should hand out bulshit-awards .. haha.. Thanks Paul :-)
Although this vid focuses on the issues with Mo-Q's emulation, it is heartening to see someone pay attention to the details Universal Audio sweats in their plugin emulations. Thank you Paul.
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If the Motown EQ was as clean as a digital EQ in the 50s, it would have been a monumental achievement.
I know. Pretty crazy eh considering how the tables have turned 50 years on
Great video!! Thanks for putting the work on it, Paul!!
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Good on you for doing this. Your Waves EV2 video was really my deep dive down this rabbit hole
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It's great that you're around for calling out cheapos in the industry
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Paul, love your work. There's a great deal of manipulating going on with some of these companies claiming everything under the sun. Let's continue to support the developers who truly create.
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The personality/sense of humor on this channel makes it truly irreplaceable
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Good to see you back mate! 🙌
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Really digging the podcast you have been putting together lately. I enjoy your actual honest plugin reviews. Not the I got paid off so I'll be nice bullshit.
Cheers casey. It's a lot more added work but Ive been enjoying it 🤓
gorgeous! This video is indepth and it's pedantic about how accurately the information is delivered, both in terms of data and communication. I grade it an A. Would have been an A+ with a shorter Intro, but who am I kidding: of course you're gonna present your merch. I like the Hello. Every. One. -one the best.
"What's so special about the motown EQ?" It's really all about the band-selection (frequencies) that works great for broad strokes on pretty much any material. In combination with the dynamic Q it really gets you close. There ARE digital EQs with dynamic Q options (really cheap ones too). And thus I got my own little "Motown EQ" set up in one, since that setup is better than the actual "Motown-EQ-Emulation" from Nomad Factory that I own (which is exactly the same like the MoQ from KIT, but with EQ-cramping and without screwed up phase - it was released 2008 or something). I guess I'm just so used to these frequencies, that it works fastest for me. What I am missing is the lack of band-interaction, but "missing" may be the wrong word, because I never had that. Gotta hand it to UAD though.. they really went the extra-mile - even on the non-audible-stuff. That's work-ethic right there.
Yeah I gotta hand it to uad. They really did their research by the looks of it 👌
And yes.. Had to promote the merch on this one 🤣
Now that UAD has gone native I think they should revisit some of their old plugins and show off their detailed modeling. When it comes to marketing you need a unique selling proposition and what is more unique than showing off that your marketing isn't just BS?
For such a rare equalizer it is a shame to have not modeled it properly. I'll even go as far as calling what KIT did is fraudulent. Thank you Paul for your forensic analysis of these plugins!
Yeah it's basically like me programming a proportional q (which I've been shown how to do now) into any digital eq and selling that preset as "the most accurately modelled motown emulation EVER made).. There's no f*cking difference haha
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UAD "Going Native" feels allaht like when Pro Tools 9 was heavily marketed with the Focusrite interfaces, that had a Bid Sign on the box saying "Pro Tools Ready" . . . Yet, it wasn't ready, at all . . . In 6 months, I only managed to record TWO Minutes of audio, as Pro Tools Crashed with Every Session . . . Requiring a full system reboot every time . . . !?@y@?! . . . PT Tech support said I had to PAY them to Ask a Question . . . !?@y@?! . . . Their suggested solution was to "Buy a Mac and an Avid Interface . . . !?@y@?! . . . Ahhh , the old "Bait and Switch " . . . Now . . . I bought the UAD Pultec , used it and Loved it . . . Then it keeps going offline, and asking me to "Restart your DAW, so I can Re-Authorize MY Pultec . . . !?@y@?! . . . It feels like a Teaser to get me to purchase an Apollo Interface . . . . The old Bait and Switch . . . Just like Pro Tools . . . "Because Pro Tools is a Program that is So Powerful . . . , that You'll need to spend a Few Thousand Dollars for the Privilege of using Pro Tools . . . !?@y@?! . . . It took me Six Months to finally get Pro Tools 9 swapped out for Cubase 6.5 . . . And Cubase is now a Dear old Friend . . . Yet, Now I use mostly Samplitude 20 (Pro X8 is version 20), with my Roland Studio Capture on my Windows PC . . . And I will Not buy a different rig to run some plugins or another DAW . . . !?@y@?! . . . Anyway . . . Cubase Blows PT out of the water for midi composing, producing and mixing . . . And Samplitude 20 blows PT out of the water for Editing, Mixing, Mastering and Sound Quality for Acoustic recordings . . . with its Hybrid Audio Engine and advanced Summing Algo-Riddims, which are optimized for recording, mixing, and mastering Symphony Orchestra . . . And for Editing . . . Samplitude and Sequoia's Object Based Editing is Decades beyond it's cheap suit imitator, known as "Clip Gain" . . . !?@y@?! . . . NOw, with UAD, I've heard a great shootout with their Neve vs someone else's, and the UAD's THD sounds Fantastic . . . ! . . . Yet . . . NA's Rule Tec works on my system, as does their Motone, and they are really Lovely . . . And I use the Lindell 80 with the Need 84, and it is Love at first Byte (Sometimes I'll even add a Pre or two . . . . . the Lindell 80 Neve also goes well with the Lindell 50 API . . . The Lindell TE 100 goes really well with the NeOld Big Al, followed by the Lindell PEX 500 . . . And , I much prefer the NeOld U2A to the LA2A . . .So . . . Anyway . . . Perhaps this UAD "Native" experiment is simply going through some growing pains . . . Hmmn . . . Yet, I have emailed UA Repeatedly, asking for a Refund on the Pultec, and I have been waiting for Months, with no response . . . So, That also feels like the old Pro Tools Yacht Club Brush Off . . . "Get outta here, Kid . . . You're Bothering me" . . . !?@y@?! . . . I guess Rich people don't pay taxes, and Big Companies don't answer emails, or give refunds . . . Hmmn . . . So, I'll Pass on the Baluga Caviar . . . I'll stay with the Rebel Alliance, Team Skywalker, and Team Potter . . . And Sith Lord Palpatine, and Lord Voldemort can go hang out with the Fat Cats at Mar-a-Lago . . . !?@y@?! . . . ! . . .
(-;
. . . Ok, So, I just opened the UAD 'Native" Pultec, just for giggles . . . and now it says, "Connect Content Drive" . . . !?@y@?! . . . Sounds like a Bait and Switch . . . !
. . . Yeah . . . So, I bought the UA Pultec in September of 2023, and it is unusable on my system, and UA doesn't respond to my emails . . . So, it's a hard pass on the Yacht Club for me . . . I'll go where the Curry is served to regular folks . . . I'll also have some Jamaican Jerk Chicken, Senegalese Gumbo, and some Kansas City BBQ . . . Y'all can Keep your Baluga Caviar . . . !?@y@?! . . . ! . . . 🙂
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I've heard that KIT are working on an emulation of the Q10. It has all that digital mojo of the original.
Sounds neat
Haha... good one :-)
You stole my idea and actually used the Q10 to recreate the eq! If I only had your attention to detail! 🤣
Q8 actually if we're talking attention to detail 😜 hahaha
@@PaulThird with the extra bands you could have added some extra hiss...I mean air 😅
You know that KIT shit themselves when UAD pre-announced the Hitsville EQ a few days after the Mo-Q was released.They probably held out some hope that a lot of people would choose to spend $80 instead of $299, but then UAD announced it would be included in Spark. I haven't demoed the Mo-Q but I have spent some time with the Hitsville and found it useful in a variety of contexts.
How they didn't know about the UAD release is beyond me haha
I was looking forward to getting my hands on the mo-q but I don't think I'll be bothering now. Thanks Paul for your extensive dissection there. Don't believe the hype! Lol.
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You are a Legend 🙌🏼
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almost bought mo q, thanks for keeping me from messing up paul!
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love it paul! more vids like this please champ
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Absolutely superb video, Paul! I'm afraid that as long as people keep buying KIT plugs, it will only encourage other scammers to follow their lead.
I know. Its annoying that they need to use the blackbird tie in to sell the plugins. They obviously don't care about blackbirds reputation when they go about making these absurd claims
As a resident Nashvillian with friends at Blackbird who rents mics/gear from them on occasion it’s upsetting to see this BS keep happening
Honestly...the only plugin I've tried that sounds unique right off the rip is waves old tg12345....I still love it and I loathe waves. The rest I can get damn close with reaeq and a stick comp. It's all bs.
I think you’ve really gone up a level in your review videos as you’re now anticipating the objections and pushback and “getting your retaliation in first”. So your analysis is more bulletproof and your conclusions are more factual rather than straying into the speculative. With that out of the way, just a huge thank you for all the hard work that you put into these videos. Although we can all audition these plugins ourselves it’s incredibly useful and informative to have you looking under the hood at what’s actually going on and telling us what you’ve found.
In terms of the plug-in itself then it wasn’t on my radar (the only kit plug-in I have was given to me for free and I don’t use it) and I don’t feel especially upset at Kit. However, I am very disappointed at other people who have done reviews of this plug-in and have totally failed to point out your conclusions. That either it fails to emulate the hardware or the hardware just acts like a digital eq. We can all guess which of those is more likely. Of course I make my own decisions on plugins and audition before I buy but I do rely to some extent on RUclips videos to narrow the field and let me know where I should be spending my time. But as time goes by, the people who I feel I can rely on for an honest and informed opinion is dwindling. After this I’m in the low single figures as I have to put a question mark against a couple more.
Sorry, I ended up rambling but the main point is thank you and well done.
Yeah a certain youtuber is definitely gonna feel some heat on my findings. I actually think they might delete their video or at least ask kit to remove their quote off their website. I was thinking about how I dealt with my Dan Worral situation last year which isn't the same as it was purely a terminology thing in my case but I still had the decision to make whether I sank or swam. Thankfully Dan made a follow up video where he talked highly of 2 other videos I made and it meant I didn't even need to think about sinking so I just edited a few bits out the video I made and changed the title so any confusion was removed from the situation.
No doubt the youtuber will get a bit of flack knowing how the youtube community thing works. He may just delete all the negative comments from the video but that's why i do what I do as see when shit goes Pete tong the devs all of a sudden go AWOL and leave you burning in the fire while more and more people keep chucking on more gasoline.
Tbh he might not even give a shit but I know that from my brief experience in the fire that it can get on top of you pretty quick
We'll see though
@@PaulThird I see this as totally different to the whole Dan Worral thing last year which was, as you say, purely a semantic issue. I've just had a look and there are 3 others that I subscribe to (apart from Colt C who I assume we are both talking about and don't see any reason not to name) who have "reviewed" the plugin and have all made statements which suggest this is more than a straight digital eq with no harmonics. I'm going to give them all the benefit of the doubt and say that they were giving their honest opinions rather than saying what they were being paid to say but that is still very disappointing.
I take my hat off to you. You aren't the only person on youtube who is willing to see past the marketing and test plugins properly but you're in a very small (and possibly dwindling) club. I hope you manage to grow the channel and keep going because your efforts are invaluable.
I’m really surprised by this. Good job Paul. I’m enjoying your channel quietly. Very surprised Colt didn’t realise there was no harmonics or saturation. 🤔. Strange
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Great video, Paul!!
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Marketing turning out more like apple's keynote hahaha!! I was about to buy their products but after having found your channel, thank you for saving people hard-earned money!
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I've been using UAD since the early 2000's. My system then didn't have the capacity to compensate for the data round trip, but the sonic quality was already so good that I used to manually shift the tracks to fix it. It comes as no surprise that, when under the microscope, their emulations show their worth.
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Wasn't looking for a Hitsville Plugin Demo, just some wholesome Motown documentaries, about the history & recording lore. But ended up here....well lets just say the matter of times you said F*** in the first 30 seconds has me subscribed.
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Great attention to detail, Paul! RUclips defo needs a channel like yours to cut through the BS.
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I find the fact that huge names in audio endorsed these plugins really scary… and sad.
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If they push anything I avoid it.
Money has gone out of the industry so a lot of people’s livelihood is on the line ...can you blame them?
@@thearno2885 yes. Sinking to this level makes them nothing more than conmen. If money is an issue, sell some expensive stuff and change the way business is handled. Like studios have done forever. Dont scam people. Better to scale down and keep some dignity in my book.
That's how they probably get almost any plugin for free.
I remember grabbing the KIT BBN105 demo and oh my... it was so bad. Never knew the reason for it but it makes sense now!
Yeah somebody said to me the phase does the same this as this bit I never checked it
Money for old rope. Cobble together some DSP in Matlab then ram the C++ into Juce and add a rusty faceplate. Flog to bedroom producers for 15 quid and you're rich.
Paul, I'll send you my new plugin to review when it's done in about 2 days! Analog Spice. 😁😁😁
Thanks for the great entertainment.
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The moment I tried the KIT plugin, I knew this video was coming. Hahaha! 😂 Thank you, Paul! Brilliant work!
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We miss your AA reviews.. would like to see your take on Spacecontrol and Fire the pan. 🙌
I'm not touching their one knob stuff, that shits gimmicky as f*ck. Dunno when I'll do AA videos again. Depends if any of their back catalogue interest me. Maybe but their new stuff genuinely doesn't float my boat
Good one!
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How about the Retro Music-tone from Nomad factory? No one seems to mention it when comparing Motown EQ Plugins
My channel member Gerhard has been going on about it all the time haha I think he said it's basically kit but with eq cramping. Doesn't model the interdependent circuit UAD model either. Pretty sure it's long discontinued now though he said
Hi Paul, can you analyze Pulsar Massive eq? I think it's a good example of analog emulation.
I've been asked loads do just copying and pasting now haha
Many people have asked to the point where I'm considering compiling all the comments and puting it out on twitter so they
Re-consider paying me for a video shootout.
They asked me if I would make a video upon release but as soon as I mentioned payment they told me they'd used up their marketing budget. I then thought about it for a week and thought nah no what I'll still get half decent views if it's on release day so said just send me it and I'll compare it vs magenta and uad.. F*cking ghosted me did they 😂
So unless they pay me to do one I'm not interested unfortunately. Its a moral thing for me.
Ahhh old school cantankerous PaulThird. I miss this guy.
I've actually been using the BB-Mo Q for a while BECAUSE it's a simple, no nonsense digital EQ. I also discovered that it wasn't introducing harmonics through plugin doctor and null tests with other digital EQs. I like it's sound (the curves are pleasant) and the oversampling works, in that it reduces cramping. That kind of phase shift in the high frequencies would be mostly in audible in most cases. But yeah, long story short, it's a decent digital EQ, but I'm glad I didn't buy it, believing it to be an analog emulation (I got it for free with my Mix with the Masters subscription).
Are there any “new” developers that are popping up on your radar? I love the AA stuff you turned me on to. Thx Paul!
Hmmm.. Not that I know of tbh
Have yet to find a Kit Plugin I genuinely liked. I feel kinda bad for Blackbird at this point.. Great review!
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I don't get the EQ craze....if you are having to go nuts eqing you didn't track the crap right to start with. When will people buy canned goods instead of EQ cartoons. Cheers dude...most honest reviews on the YT
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Hey Paul, Good Friday morning. Had a strange request last week from a client who ONLY wanted his mix down done in Harrison mixbus. Im slightly familiar from some years back with the software but not my my main DAW at all. Curious as to your opinion on it, not the ins and outs but just the overall "analog" ness of it. Ive heard people mention it sounds very much like an analog summing bus on mix down. Maybe someday do a video about it. Again more interested in the master bus mix down part, not detailed channel strip functions, routing, etc. if you DID already do one point me to it, would love to see. have a great weekend and keep on keeping on.
There's been DAW tests done in Sweden where they were compared. Harrison mixbus didn't fully null but it was still under -100dbfs so inaudible.
Put it this way.. Do you know of any massive engineer using mixbus?.. Not that I know of. Protools is the industry standard and even at that there is no audible difference between them.
If its the tape saturation emulation that he wants then just stick a tape plug on every stem.
Honestly Teddy no artist or engineer is gonna know that it's not on mixbus.. I can guarantee you of that
@@PaulThird thanks man, yeah I kind figured as much. WAAy back in the day when I played with it I realized that having a built in compressor on every channel strip lured me into using that compressor. I mean its there just waiting right? ha ha. we all know compressing everything on every channel is not a good thing. im thinking maybe this is why people feel mixbus give a more "analog feel", because everyones compressing the shite out of every channel and now "it sounds just like the radio station music does!" ha ha. maybe ill just have an instance of mixbus running with some stems for when he stops by :). Yeah maybe an actual Harrison console but I dont know as a DAW. I remember it felt kind of clunky to me. and by the way, just bought a silver face RME FS for my mastering converter and it does sound awesome :) Ok, thanks as always my friend, have an amazing weekend
@@PaulThird oh and btw, yes I do use my UAD Ampex ATR 102 when needed on masters and I love it. spot on suggestion :)
Interesting video. What I find weird about this sort of thing is that if you're modelling something that has an EQ that acts the way that the UAD plugin has modelled it, you'd know pretty quick that it wasn't acting that way. It's just an EQ plugin so even if you ignore harmonics, you'll know that the EQ curves don't match and don't behave the same way when you adjust bands. Should be the first thing they'd check. Or, even before that, use as the basis for what they're trying to model. Very odd. But interesting.
Tbh KIT are just very inexperienced and invested more in marketing than accomplished plugin coders. That's what happens when you don't invest most in quality
I can’t believe John McB put the Blackbird name to the KIT plugs. When the Neve came out I got the demo, turned it on (no eq) heard the massive unrealistic bump in the low end and swiftly deleted the plug-in, then equally as swiftly wrote off KIT and any plugins Blackbird put their name too. Sad that John let these through, has an association with KIT and/or didn’t pay enough attention to the quality and just took his percentage for the use of the Blackbird name.
My dude.. Ur ending was perfect.. Either blackbird stick up for kit which will ultimately admit their famous eq is nothing special or they go against them and force them to remodel it and do it properly or alternatively take their branding from the plugin
Popcorn at the ready my dude!!!!! 🍿
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I came to the exact same conclusion myself after analysis in PD. I could recreate the exact curves in my stock ableton EQ. I got chewed out by the plugin community and Kit deleted all of my comments
Of course they did. Standard practice by devs online 🤣
In response to the no saturation point, they replied to me with, “The original unit had no saturation. This is an exacting emulation”
Cool. Never knew input and output transformers could be as clean as digital in the 1970's .. What a revelation 🤣
@@PaulThird insane right. Thanks for this video it validates my feelings about it lol. Btw brother man, you convinced me to buy N4 for the third party libraries. SO good. Grateful for that. If you ever would like to nerd out about plugins I’d love to connect some time! Thanks again
Ah, nothing like a dev deleting everything on Gearspace when you point out legit issues :)
Thank you for doing this video. I was on the fence about MoQ. I suppose Acoustica Audio, UAD, and DMG are the more reliable developers in the analog emulation game. Any thoughts on EQuilibrium? They have lots of endorsements from big names, even as far as some saying it's the best EQ plugin ever made and leaves everyone else in the dust.
From what I've been told it's a very good digital eq, more similar to kirchhoff than proq3. Tbh though if youve got proq3 or especially kirchhoff there's no need for equilibrium, and vice versa
@@PaulThird thank you, I don't have any of those 3 so looks like I will pick up the Kirchoff
Amazing Paul. You plan to check out pulsar massive?
I did until pulsars marketing guy mucked me about so unfortunately no
@@PaulThird I don’t get it. I thought you could review whatever you wanted. Cheers!
I replied to your first comment. That'll make more sense
@@PaulThird understood Paul. You do a ton of work on these. You should be compensated.
Great video and well and tactfully said! Paul, I've got a project I'm working on at the moment which is quite bold. Just wondering if you'd be interested in giving me a second set of ears on it as I would value your opinion for a number of reasons? No probs or offence if not or you're too busy! Tom.
If you send it across to my email I could see if I've got time but yeah tell me the reasons so I have context haha
@@PaulThird Thanks Paul! Will send a link to a Google drive folder tomorrow. Will give you more context in the email - the tracks are on fairly hot button topics and delivered with an 'I'm autistic/no filter on gob' flourish 🤔😂. Haha.
Hi Paul. Thanks for saving me a shite load of money on inferior software.
Also, my families from Ayr and try as I might I can’t seem to geographically pinpoint your Scottish accent 🤔😉
Keep up the good work.
Dundee so I'm East Coast 🤓
Just before watching: damn, good one - these two are equally likely to be off the mark (to put it gently), but I still place my bet on KIT to be on the "wtf" level and UAD just having an inherent gain boost for no reason
It doesn't take long into the video to start seeing where the BS lies 😅
A lot of gear can have an inherent boost or cut when inserted (even when 'flat'). The gain bump is a frequency dependent 'warts and all' modeling detail, but I understand some folks still don't like that.
It's interesting how kit have went all out and claimed that what I've found is 100% accurate to the hardware.. Even though they admitted they coded by ear 🙈🙈
My first and last plugin from KIT I guess...
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KIT has resorted to deleting comments, including mine, on the sponsored ads as well as attempting to insult the skills/intelligence of so many engineers now asking questions about the MOQ. Such an odd response to criticism about a $100 plug-in claiming to be the “most powerful and immersive musical experience in plugin form”. Such a bold claim and completely unnecessary. They are almost asking for this kind of criticism with those claims: we ought to be giving these “tools” a good long look if the marketing is telling us this is the BEST plug-in ever made. Thank you for what you do Paul.
It's even funnier watching other engineers match the Moq with their own eq's. I seen an engineer match moq with one of SSL Xeq2 proportional q's as it was so similar.
I even set up a macro using waves studio rack where I matched the frequencies and gain with q8 and created my own proportional q via the macro settings tieing the gain and q together which pretty much gives the same constant Q behaviour. Not exact in certain places but it's enough to get the whole idea of the sound. Had an extra slot so even added in the option of pass through and drive of the tg12345 incase I wanted some of my own non linearities 😜
@@PaulThird Their responses online are baffling. I was told I am spamming negativity on their page when in reality I posted once asking them why they mislead their customers with intentional marketing language that was completely unnecessary. I referenced Softube in using similar tactics but the mentioned how Softube actually delivers quality emulations that produce similar results as the hardware. Comment was deleted. They lost a customer. If they have to resort to vetting the comment threads of their sponsored ads that says it all. This coming from someone who loves the BB N105 after the updates. I can’t support a company who treats it’s paying customers like that. I noticed they hired a new marketing director so I’m wondering how much of this fumble is on him.
If he worked for Steven Slate then he'll know a thing or 2 about slick marketing haha
"who the fuck needs headroom, I want all the 2hz sub I can get...." - kit dev diary
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But the GUI is so pretty 😍😍😍😍
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The Scottish dialect is the best dialect in the English language. So much flavor! So much character!!!
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Why guys at Kit Plugins are complaining that you removed their comment on this video? Is that true Paul? I’d love to hear from them about the things you pointed out here
Well i take it that you've gotten that from gearslutz where they posted the same reply. Check my community post. Their full response is there for everyone to see and not just people who hadn't already seen the video prior to their response
@@PaulThird ok thanks for your reply..just a question.. did you have the chance to try the new version of their neve channel strip emulation…lots of hype around this one as well, but I couldn’t find something from you…is this BB N105 v2 worth it?
They fixed mostly all the issues in v1. Saturation was decent but nothing special. I found the transient response to be quite smeary to my ears which could be down to the phase as somebody told me the same phase issues were in that as well but I didn't check that so I can't say for sure.
Either way it's a neve emulation. Six and half a dozen. There's a ton to take your pick from that offer way more
Hahahahaha so hilarious. Great work.
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Half azzed emulations are fraudulent! Great video, Paul!
I've been getting sent loads of people asking for a refund.. Obviously feel the same 😜
@@PaulThird I tried the BB-105 equalizer after NoiseAsh sent me a preview copy of their NEED bundle. I honestly couldn't understand the hype, 105 just sounded like a clear equalizer to me.
NoiseAsh on the other hand when I compared it to the access analog Neve equalizers I was very happy with what I was able to get out of them. I did not run them through analysis plugins like you do, but after using them on a few mixes had no problem recommending them.
People have to be very careful about what they buy these days! You're doing a huge service to the community, Paul.
With the Neve plugin, I thought people were being a bit hard because it seemed like issues only appeared on certain computers and/or in certain DAWs; I didn’t but the plug-in because I didn’t have a use for it, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt. The Linear EQ plug-in was a bad sign. This just puts a nail in the coffin to me…
I honestly don’t get why companies feel the need to do this. Money, sure, I get it, but even if you’re making a clean linear EQ and just rebranding it with a new GUI, how do you not clean up the phase issues?! How does that get past QA?! Ugh.
Totally.. The first thing I thought when I seen there was oversampling was.. "That phase is gonna be f*cked is it".. And yes it was 🤣
Tbh it depends on the quality of your beta testers. I dunno if they do have beta testers but I doubt it as there is a bug I didn't even mention in the video as it was too long already. The second band has a low end bump which only comes in at like 5 or 6db and then reduces the more you boost. Doesn't exist before 5 or 6db or any other band.. But here's the thing.. It starts to incorporate this random low bump at 1-4db when you engage the low bump and the only way to get it off to alt click the band to reset and it's back to normal again
If it was beta tested then f*ck knows if they've ever heard of doctor 😂
@@PaulThird I think consumers (us!) underestimate the amount of work it takes to make a plug-in, INCLUDING the beta testing phase and the feedback/critiquing process. It’s literally scientific process (as in, following the scientific method), and it isn’t easy. BUT, failing to do so results in issues like the phase thing and low end bump that will build over the course of a mix and ruin what you’re doing.
Your videos are a godsend. Keep at it, Paul!
Paul..
You record at 192? Woooah
Nah 96khz haha but only cause my premixing session is at 96k
No surprise there. UA emulate analog to a fault sometimes, including counterintuitive behaviors.
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Uh oh! Lol
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KIT claims they replied to your video and you deleted it, what's up with that? Not trying to start are fight, just curious.
Yup. I have no time for their BS reply and excuses which is aimed to deflect the issue and only further confuse the community more so they are now hidden from the channel. I'm not having shite like that on my channel where they think they can do what they want. They did the same on my first neve video where I practically got spammed from fake accounts posting comments and they used my video to claim that they were fixing the issue and they'd comment again when they did.. Which they never did
However I did post their response in a seperate community post on the channel where I dissected it and so all of my audience can see it including those who had already watched the video before their response.. So their response was shared and seen by more of my audience
yep
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Well…. I actually like the sound of the *fixed* Kit Blackbird, and I’m not a fan of most “vintage neve” style plugins…. But this nonsense makes me wonder if the whole thing is just a happy accident that I like it haha. Just putting the word “Motown” on a totally clean, linear, digital EQ (that doesn’t even get the curve interaction right 🤦♂️) is patently absurd. “Kit Plugins: Finally get the clean linear DIGITAL sound of Motown- in the box!!” 😂
Also Paul curious if you’ve checked out Pulsar Massive. Magenta is tough to beat sonically in my book, but I do so like Pulsar’s interface :)
That neve plugin sounds good (imo).
Pulsar mucked me about with the massive so I unfortunately don't have any intentions to share my thoughts on it 😢
@@PaulThird what’s mucked me about, mean?
Share your thought here, then? Rate the Pulsar and magenta out of 10. And that’ll be enough to know how you feel. Cheers!
They asked me to do a review for the release day and as soon as I quoted a price they told me they'd already maxed out their marketing budget for the massive 🤔
I thought about it for a week and then thought nah f*ck it im actually interested as I use magenta all the time and have the UAD massive passive. So asked them to just send it anyway and I'd do it as if it was on release day I'd still make half decent ad revenue do to search.. But they then ghosted me so nah no way I'm gonna share anything until they would pay me for the work.
Its a principal thing. You only get 1 chance with me cause I'm pretty f*cking stubborn 🤣
TELL EM!!!!
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I bought this and it was immediately unusable.. I bought it because Colt Cap endorsed it.. I immediately asked for a refund, but they refused and proceeded to gas light me.. calling my expectations unreasonable..
Wonder if after this they still see reasoning for a refund unreasonable 🤔.. (BTW doesn't matter we do I could probably guarantee there's no way they'd refund)
@@PaulThird i have an ongoing email thread with them.. I sent them your work and suggested they review it 👍
Why wouldn't you try it yourself first?
@@hr2186 it was recommended by Colt Capperune.. I’ve followed many of his recommendations and had good experience.. mostly in hardware. Why do I have to spend extra time on setup if a pro(?) is recommending it and the devs claims are accurate? This is why I’m double pissed off. 😡 😤
@@zeroaverage It sucks...these days the "pros" are far from honest...the handshake years ago meant something now it doesn't nor do folks care about their reputation unless it's their club members. Cheers
I’m starting to feel bad for Blackbird at this point. The most likely reasons for these inaccuracies are probably ignorance with no good translator from the hardware side to the software side. If they hired a DEV company based on their developer skills and not their knowledge of old electrical components, which I suspect likely and unknowingly on the Blackbird side, has led to the Dev’s going “by the book” and counting on the “fact” that the Nyqvist Theorem will take care of any shenanigans above 10khz, because “how many people can hear above 10khz anyways!”
So they get sine wave recordings from the board, match the min-max, average out a low THD, throw in oversampling the “hi-fi guys” and then ABY it with the Board samples, a waves Q-Clone, and their own plug-in which hits “all the specs that you can hear”.
Most likely budgets, lack of communication between the audio engineers and Devs, and at its worst…pure incompetence and a dumb Agile based workflow.
100% speculation on my part, and I hope this will all get sorted before it tarnishes a legacy studio. Gotta save that for after some gets cancelled…😝
UAD, FABFILTER, SOUNDTOYS…all seem to have really good R&D departments and consistent methods for putting out solid products. I’d much rather pay double for more R&D than a load of semi-accurate and half the price alternatives at double the release speed.
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so, it’s basically not emulating anything except for the control layout… ffs 🤦🏻♂️
Proportional q looks like the only thing they modelled
mo-q looks like a free plugin
It essentially is 🤣
@@PaulThird Seriously I swear I saw this in the "free plugin" section of Plugin Boutique.
UAD's problem is all of the Spark plugins run at 48K internal so if you are working at 44.1 or 48K thats fine but if you work at higher sampling rates the cut off of the aliasing filter is just plain wrong causing high EQ pinching like a plugin from 2009. I thought for a long time this was just a limitation of the older DSP sharc chips they were using so it was understandable. But then the native Spark plugins come out and they have the same quirk. It's just plain weird and strange.
I can't check out the spark stuff cause it still not Windows compatible haha 😢
This is exactly why Acustica Audio is getting more popular. Also, I am so glad I never bought a fake analogue EQ.
I'm a bit unsure about acustica eq's at the moment as a few have messaged me about the high end phase that I showed a couple of weeks back. Need to do a bit of experimentation with that in the future as I know they use brickwall filters at niquist for 44.1 & 48k and I think that's why i presume that they say that acustica at 96k is the closest to the hardware
@@PaulThird Using AA plugs at 96khz is night and day compared to lower rates. Especially Diamond EQ. Requires a beast machine ofc. Or reserve them for 2buss mixing or mastering. I have found many AA plugs fall apart on the high end. Snow is awful. Jade 1 was terrible until Jade 2 fixed a lot of issues, way better. I sold Ivory and Magenta because of the poor highs. Opal is the best of the bunch. Insane CPU though.
They suck too. It's all smoke and mirrors. Acustica have a something in the top that kills my ears and my dogs....no kidding. It's static modelling and won't ever work when music is dynamic
@@hr2186 Do you run your sessions at 96khz?
@@RJ1J No. I don't saturate my audio very much either on a buss for instance...just some slight stuff along the way. I roll off at 18hz on everything. I've tried 96 but with my workflow and style it made little difference in the real world.
On another note: Gerhard predicts that your ad-revenue will significantly go up.
Cause of the merch shelf or the video? Haha
@@PaulThird nah, cause something changed in the coding of the firefox-browser or of the Ad-Block (that's what I suspect). Because for reasons I haven't fully figured out yet, I all of the sudden see adds in videos. And I never used to see adds in videos. I won't be the only one experiencing this.
So quick to judge! Clearly you underestimate the value of those lovely skeumorphic knobs. They add all the mojo anyone could want. I don't care what your measurements say. There's more to sound than just numbers! If you can't hear the difference in those graphics then I roll my eyes at you. You probably didn't even mortgage your house to buy your audio interconnects.
I didn't.. I DIDN'T 😭😭
@@PaulThird Knew it.
That is a really bad Nyquist lowpass filter.
It's minimum phase OS filters to fix the eq cramping. They said they decided against linear phase due to cpu so they purposely chose to have phase which wasn't the hardware. All they needed was to implement a x2 FIR and that would have been all they needed but instead opted for up to X8 IIR haha 🙃
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Remember to check out my autism channel if you want to learn more about my life 🤓🤓
I was going to make an OnlyFans joke, but you beat me to it :/
"Paul Third after dark" will always beat you to it 🤣
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I do not for the life of me understand why devs like this would go through all of that trouble and work to get the hardware, then bust it open study the circuit, start coding that circuit, design the faceplate get it all to work, build a website, advertise, and finally get RUclipsrs to make videos and make videos themselves... if it doesn't do anything or sound like the original!! I mean What the F*&$
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Never a surprise when BS and UAD are mentionec in the same sentence.
This video seemed pretty complimentary of uad… did you even watch?
@@johnbach2380 They clearly didn’t.
You are using the term "linear" incorrectly multiple times in this presentation.
When
@@PaulThird Consistently.
So no examples then.. Fantastic
@@PaulThird haha, don't feed the troll!
Sooo basically, like most of the other plugin "developers" they just download the old codes thats been used to write all the plugins (why they all sonnd the same) add a pretty GUI and bosh!! 😉
I think that they have actually modelled the proportional Q but that was it. I dunno how much time they had with the blackbird motown eq but it looks like just an afternoon haha where UAD had contacts with Hitsville and one of their beta testers even loaned them their own motown eq so they could compare it to the Hitsville ones. UAD obviously had time to study and properly measure the units where I couldn't tell you how long kit had but id guess not long 😂
The KIT plugins RUclips channel just looks like a bunch of paid promos. Big red flag for snake oil vendors.
Well they have Steven Slates old marketing director so take from that as you will 😜
I'm pretty confused about this company. their about page implies that absolutely nobody involved in the team actually knows a thing about DSP? it reads like the match up of the douchiest marketing company ever. i am guessing they outsource. if that be the case, then they should perhaps lay off the thick sauce of modelling claims a bit. take a bite of the humble pie
Yeah it's all marketing and business guys. Looks more like a bunch of engineers and music biz people. Not one coder mentioned.. Not one 🤷♂️
But they'll mention Steven Slates old marketing director 🤣
@@PaulThird lol, only just clocked that. i'll stick em on the wide berth list
The kit plugin sounds beautiful
hello KIT... nice try
@@persywho5863 if crying gets you hard you should probably see someone
Might as well just use the stock EQ in your DAW. It’ll sound just as “beautiful” in a blind test.
Complaints about the lack of interaction between bands 100% justified, complaints about the lack of saturation/harmonics, fairly justified, complaints about the phasing in the high end, unjustified. It's a different design using minimum phase filtering. I use Softube Weiss EQ MP nearly every day, it exhibits nearly the same behavior when using a step dB per octave cut, that was just part of their modeling. The BBN105 does the same thing, which I believe other people have complained about, and while I'm sure this is an issue in various scenarios, it's an intentional design choice.
I'd massively disagree as if that was the case then why does the phase not stay the same when changing sample rates? That's why they have included oversampling.. To reduce the default roll off in the phase. They recognise that the phase response isn't right so included oversampling to fix it.
It makes no logical sense why you wouldn't fix your high end phase response so it remains the same regardless of sample rate. That's what good coders do. Uad ensured that their passthrough phase was linear after the low roll off. That's why it remains the same between 20hz -20khz regardless of sample rate.
Put it this way, we're dealing with a plugin modelling an analog eq from the 70's.. The plugin should model that sound at any given sample rate as the analog eq phase has no correlation to sample rate so why does kits?
Cause its not modelled correctly and kit doesn't know how to code it properly. That's the real reason
@@PaulThird I am not an electrical engineer, nor a programmer, so while I have a basic understanding of linear phase, and minimum phase in the digital domain, I don't have the supporting knowledge base or mathematical background to compare them in a manner that would be genuine.
I have Plugin Doctor just like anyone else out there who wishes to purchase, and I find it very difficult to believe that a company which is capable of emulating plugins, especially ones that are fairly well regarded like the BBN105, aren't aware of what they are doing. It's fairly clear to see when running a MP high cut what happens to the upper end of the frequency spectrum of phase, on other excellent MP based EQ's. I have run various pieces of HW through plugin doctors HW analyzer, and it does not appear to work accurately on my CADAC units (or otherwise), and if it is working correctly, the phase coherency in analog is far more miserable than anything we experience with digital, as it looks like a saw tooth waveform.
You bring up good questions, which I don't have the engineering background to answer, especially as to why it changes with oversampling. I can't tell you, but I do agree that it would make sense for the response to stay uniform. However; their entire oversampling system is odd to me, switching from 4-8-16 has little impact on the CPU performance, so I do not know if it is different than what other programmers are doing or not.
I think it would behoove you to try to interview the engineers and programmers who developed these plugins and ask them why they made their decisions so we can all be further educated on the matter and better understand the compromises of plugin development.
Some very well regarded engineers I know use the BBN105, and I have to agree with them, that whatever it does, phase shift and all is fairly unique. It seems to take away some of the "in the boxiness." It has a depth to it that is similar to running into analog hardware, and doesn't have the same "in your face" quality that many other emulations seem to have. Often I find plugins make elements very in your face. The other thing I notice about the N105, when I move a knob, even a little bit, it's very audible, and it's not because it's boosting more than it states, if we are to believe the accurate of the read outs from plugin doctor.
Point being, through various analysis and a limited understanding of plugins, readouts are not always to be taken at face value as there are many considerations when developing these emulations. None of which come without compromise.
I get the whole doctor thing but that's why i incorporated null tests so we could measure the actual differences in the audio. My videos are all about being true to the claims the devs make which in this case is that this is the most realistic emulation of a motown eq.. Actually ever (genuinely their words 😅)
So if the phase isn't right then the realism goes out the window, especially as uad has modelled the same eq. Honestly if it was anybody else I'd maybe be a bit more lenient but the fact that I'm comparing it to UAD is a big thing. UAD model their plugs extremely well and cover all bases whenever they release a new product.
They were in discussion with the motown museum, liased with the engineer who had the schematics of the langevin 252 as that was apparently what the motown eq was based off. On their forum they detailed nearly everything.
These guys don't f*ck about. OK their marketing can be pretty snake oil but most of their emulations are properly coded. Trust me if the UAD's phase is coded that way odds are it's pretty bang on to the hardware
@@PaulThird That's the thing about any of these plugin emulations, I can't figure out a way (and clearly in this case based on the rarity of the unit) to compare the phase response accurately to hardware.
1) Because I don't know what software to accurately measure it with.
2) Because it's quite possible the best emulation of it doesn't perfectly represent the analog versions phase profile.
3) I find it greatly interesting the bands don't interact on the KIT one, my question is if they failed to model this, or if their version of it has been modded or is actually different.
I don't disagree with you that this isn't the most accurate emulation. I personally think they found out UAD was releasing Hitsville and rushed this one to market at a lower price point. With that said, I wish we had a good way to accurately measure phase accuracy and compare real hardware to software rather than plugin to plugin often times.
Very true.. However that's why i use the plugins highest supported sample rate as an indication of its 'best' phase response or I just check doctor to see if its high end phase changes at higher sample rates. Doesn't tell you if it's the analog phase but that's the only way to know what it is "supposed" to be.
One day I will get some more physical gear to actually measure phase response but.. I can't see me spending any money on analog gear any time soon haha
One thing I will add though is remember the high end phase shift is caused via the steep lpf's in the plugins. That's why you get eq cramping in so many eq's. Analog eq's dont cramp and simply just stop existing after whatever niquist is in the digital domain. So an analog bell or shelf wouldn't cramp down to niquist it would just look look like it's been cut off.
So if the motown eq's linear frequency response is pretty much flat on passthrough, pretty much expect the phase to be as well.. On passthrough.. Not eq obviously as any eq move will cause a phase shift in analog
Why do plugin developers have steep lpf's... 🤷♂️ But I do know that they can cause drastic high end phase shifts if not coded correctly and that is something definitely not in the analog domain.
If a piece of analog gear does have a high end phase shift on passthrough then it would be caused by some form of high end roll off which can be caused by multiple things like impedance, circuitry etc but NEVER a brickwall lpf.. Its just not an analog thing and more of a digital coding thing
I truly agree that Kit plugin fucked up and UAD is more accurate
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