Tuld's character is very believable for the position he holds. He does just more than guess when the music stops ... he also sizes up people and implements them where they are most effective, without letting any animosity or sarcasm on their part cloud his judgment
So where was he when they made the decision to go with this risky strategy in the first place? He made a bad call, his second one is to offload the responsibility of that call
@@josiah5776 in that sense I agree. My issue is often that people often play this off as some elite strategic ceo mindset when it’s really a very easy thing to do. It’s called cowardice. Yes the 2008 global financial crisis was primarily a systemic failure and thus when put in Jeremy Irons place I would also likely have done the same thing. But it doesn’t mean I can play it off as me being a brilliant leader who gets paid to make the hard decisions. If this was any other job except CEO I would be fired at minimum. (Instead it is half his staff who has to leave) I cannot use my duty as an excuse for my actions.
I'm actually thinking the opposite - did he ever *have* control until the end scene with Sam in the restaurant? If Eric hadn't have given the file to Peter on a whim, or if Peter had joined the others in the bar that night, or if he hadn't have figured it out with his maths background, then the discovery was not being made that night and who knows when. Tuld also had to publicly fire his Head of Risk Management, half his trading floors, and probably black-list his company going forwards from his fellow sales associates from doing what they did. I can't help but think that Tuld was just lucky, rather than being in complete control of the situation. Yes he was 'first', it was just by chance
@@gailerlindsey8158 oh, of course he was badass - that is no doubt! My argument is that when exactly was he going to swoop in and save the situation, had these chance events not happened that particular day? Because nobody else seemed to be making any moves, so his firm was about to get caught up in it also? Anyways, it is just a fictional storyline so it doesn't really matter
To me, it feels like most of the pain Tuld was exhibiting was the fact that that check was coming out of Tuld's own pocket and that there was a chance the money could stop flowing... Never once was it ever "about the firm"--inability to reply whenever the "firm" or the "company" was brought up--but about Tuld having money, staying in power, and not having to downgrade
Lol I was thinking the same thing. Pretty sure I’ve watched the meeting scene at least 50 times in the past year randomly and every single time I never stop it.
urinal dividers? in a mens room ? simple u skip the urinal next to the one thats being occupied if not u go to the stall.. if u cant handle that feel free to use the ladies room
Yes, it is! It’s one of my favorites. I worked the the mortgage loan servicing industry when this all went down. Our servicing company was owned by Merrill Lynch. This movie is phenomenal in how it portrays the crash from the perspective of a Wall Street firm, and the acting is nothing short of superb.
@@tothbalazs1691 well to be fair in the movie it was going to happen regardless. if a tidal wave is coming you might as well climb the tallest tree. yea it's fkd up that you lived and others died but nothing you can do will stop the tidal wave so you might as well survive.
For a film thats actually got quite a simple premise. (Big company will go broke if it doesnt do something unethical but legal) Its a testament to cast and crew that you end up hanging on every word for just under 2 hours
I think the way it works so well is by starting from something small, seemingly unimportant, the handing of the USB to Spock, and then lowly Spock peers into the mysterious projection... and that's how the after-math... the big Enchilada... just mushroom-clouds... Without that humble beginning, nobody would be impressed with how powerful the nuke was. For some reason the intro of "The Peacemaker" comes to mind.
@@GregMoress if you pay attention you know the seniors even including Sam knew what was happening from the very beginning. Peter coming up with the calculation just made them realize they need to act urgently to be first before it's too late. Most of the conversations with Peter and Seth are just a charade.
@bjh1964 That's the thing mate , for all his posturing to John and maybe he was truly struggling with the morality of it all , he still took it.And 99 .999 % of us would do the exact same thing .
that's part of what frustrates this character. It comes up in a later informal meeting with tulde. Sam needs the money (for his current lifestyle). Thus ethics come last, even if it irritated him.
So many great scenes in this movie. That they are in the pisser in this one is authentic. Neutral territory for that kind of guy. If you buy into the basic premise of the story, which is that they all knew (except for Seth - portrayed as self absorbed because they are everywhere) something was up. A lot of respect and animosity between these two. Imagine the battles over the years. But, although they do a nice job with suspense, Tuld 100% would know that Sam needs the money. He lets Sam keep his dignity, even as he pummels him, because he's already thinking about next week. He needs Sam to lead everyone who crawls out of the wreckage. He needed to throw him a bone and a big one
...and he needs the money because his wife divorced him before the crash (she cashed out at the top) and his settlement in CT or NY will be ruinous for the rest of his life.
@@sammencia7945 That... and after the divorce, losing his dog, not thinking about how the crash would affect his son... Sam is a man who lost his soul and hates that he became who he is. He needs the money financially, but after he failed to get out to try and scrape together any semblance of who he is outside the firm... He needs the money. The job, the firm, the people he deals with. Everything related to the money... He needs it.
I cant believe it's only 14 years after the subprime crisis, and majority of the comments here already have no memory of that thus have no idea what the movie is about.
I remember my dad had to come home because his contract and the ship he was in was being scrapped. At first it was good news because he would be home for christmas. but then we would found out that it would be months for the next contract and would be 6 month duration, no longer 9 months with possible extension. I had to stop my college education because of the financial situation. Considering other people got worse and lost everything in the 2008 and 2009 financial crisis, I'd say we got off light.
I appreciate the symbolism at the very start where he throws garbage away and does a lax luster fist pump that he accomplished his goal. When one shot with no words can describe the entire movie, I think that shows great direction.
@@kincaidwolf5184 He was part of the division that lost money. 60% of his floor was fired that day and not by him. He didn't do a good job up to that point, which is why Jared fired most of his floor.
@@sammencia7945 The floor was fired before the discovery. Nobody was sacked after the discovery. Infact, they kept people on deliberately until the events played their their course.
@@kincaidwolf5184 They were talking about it the year before. All Sr Management knew and were cutting costs before the economy tanked. They retained only Sullivan. Everyone else was fired, and they were ALWAYS going to be fired.
@@sammencia7945 No, certain elements of the leadership knew. The shareholders did not know. Otherwise they would have bailed out long before. If your entire fortune and pension is invested into the company, you don't want these risks. The leadership, led by Tuld, were happy to ignore the warning signs as long as they got their bonuses and sales remained upbeat. Everyone knew the market was going to crash at some stage. While the party was going, they made sure to earn as much as possible. The floor was let go because in 2006/2007 the economy went into recession. And at the start, you're seeing the consequences of that. It was in 2008 where these events took place. The film just sped up the process which takes months. By the end of the film, most people were cut because there was no job for them. The market was finished. They retained the best talent, which isn't unusual. They weren't fired, they were made redundant. Huge difference. The only person that was "fired" as such was the woman who was head of risk. She wasn't really fired but bought off with a huge payday. But anyways why was she "fired"? Because Tuld had to explain to the shareholders how did he fuck up the company so bad. Tuld used her as a sacrifice lamb. She could have fought him and gone to the shareholders or made a legal complaint, he even says to her "don't fight me on this". She didn't and took the big payday.
Have not been in financial services at this level but I participate in sales for several high-tech companies that asked us to keep selling a product on the streets that we knew was out of gas (competitively speaking.) Ugly.
That thing when Tuld leans his forehead against the wall after the confrontation ends, is very accurate. This type of character works people by bursting energy at them using pre-practiced speeches and concentrating confidence into 'public encounters'. When those encounters end, it's just a dead battery there.
Amazing that this was the directing and writing feature length picture debut for JC Chandor. Can you imagine giving that cast direction on your first movie?
it would have to have been 5 mill dollars min for Sam, as the traders were getting a few mill each if they sold their garbage. I thought Spacey was generous to the Sam character. A man who made millions a year taking risks, buying garbage, then has a morality check the moment the greed gets out. Then he gets paid off another 5 or 10 mill, and gets to stay for 2 more years. By then, the market may well have come back anyway. I think this Sam had no morals at all in real life, he was just worried about his reputation in the market.
Well yeah reputation is everything in finance. You build 34 years worth of customers, clients, partners, trust. To throw it all away, even better. You basically lie to all your costumers saying you have a steal on hand, when actually you are handing them the bag. That has to be a hell of a position to be in. He had no options. If he would quit on the spot, he would have no reputation, no money and no future. Now he has no reputation and no future, but enough money to retire.
Definitely 5 mil minimum, considering Eric Dale got 3 million just to come back to the firm and sit in a room. He said he was making 176471 dollars an hour to sit quietly in a room. That's 3 million divided by 17.
It’s really one of the best films I’ve ever seen. Sure, I love and understand the subject matter (a lot of people don’t), but the acting and pacing is superb
Sam pledges his allegiance "to the firm", knowing full well that Tuld is asking for a deeper commitment. Tuld wants Sam's allegiance TO HIM. He doesn't need Sam to lead the troops into battle, he needs him to march them off a cliff. Is that what's best for the firm? Of course not. But it is what Tuld has decided is in his own best interests. Sam knows this, which is why he walks off in disgust. He's disgusted with Tuld, and himself...because he has already agreed to do Tuld's dirty work. Tuld wants a final nod from Sam because he knows how much he has riding on this, but Sam is silently screaming: "I'll do it. Just don't make me say it."
walking home with multi-million dollar bonuses is hardly "marching off a cliff". The whole point of the movie is that it's normal people who lose money, not Wallstreet.
@@busTedOaS They are literally being asked to destroy their careers. After the fire sale, they have no job at the firm, or anywhere else. Yes, pay off or no pay off, that is very much "marching off a cliff". There are no more battles to fight after this, because this is a battle no one will walk away from.
@@EyeMixMusic If that's really how you would feel walking away with a million dollars in your hands... then that's called greed and is the whole reason this stuff keeps happening.
I still can’t figure out why Tuld, being the richest and most powerful man in the building, is the ONLY one wearing a button-down collar. What’s the meaning behind that? That’s not the collar a CEO would wear.
Whoever wrote the title of this video either didn't watch this scene or didn't understand it. John doesn't try to reward Sam for his loyalty, he tries to buy it
Imagine your boss instructing you to tell 60 traders who are working under you to get on the phone and sell complete dog shit to anybody who will buy it.
I’ve often wondered if the offer was for Sam or if the offer was to everyone on the floor selling. Otherwise, why would Sam agree to stay after the fire sale and admit he still needs the money?
Good point but perhaps his divorce and subsequent marital divide has left him broke with no savings. So then also needs the stable salary for another few years to stay accustomed to the life he has led
I wished my former boss also gave me a little white memo pad with a big fat number on it to convince me to participate in a special task for the company.
Then you've never worked in the executive offices of a major firm. That men's room at 4am is likely cleaner than your kitchen table, and definitely cleaner than any airport security area where you take off your shoes without a second thought.
Think how long Sam's been with tuld to have your boss come into the bathroom for a "one last ride, I need you" speech n to basically be told "fuck you"
@@TSERJIat least in my firm, there are some senior people who want a little peace in this chaos world. Even the CEO repeatedly offer better position, these guys keep their current position with excellent results. Come, do job, get money, go home. Fuck politics. Seems like that
Sam's character irritated me in this film. He repeatedly raised objections to the firm's plan to save itself from disaster yet did not once suggest an alternative. He had also been working in a lucrative job for 40 years but he still needed money which made me wonder how intelligent he was.
He probably was wiped out in his divorce. He definitely lost his house. I think it's underestimated how bad an emotional state Sam was in at this moment. Lost his marriage, his home, losing his dog, his company crashing. His entire world is coming apart.
@@Bowhuntingskills One thing that didn’t make sense to me was that Peter stated that if the toxic assets went down in value by 25%, the loss would be greater than the company’s market capitalisation. But you shouldn’t need fancy mathematical models to figure this out. All you need to know is that the toxic assets have a current value that is more than four times the company’s market capitalisation. But I suppose films have to simplify things like this.
Thats not a public bathroom. And its likely on the executive floor so that makes it an executive bathroom. Those walls are probably cleaner then the plate you eat off of every night.
And then his speech was that good he allowed himself to finish it up with a “For the greater good” like, WTF cares anymore we are all getting paid handsomely, so let’s get it done.
@@vincentkosik403 We particularly love the soundtrack with the heavenly singing at the end of them movie as fire arrows are raining down on the encampment. Poignant to see those kids gather and paddle away upstream to start again in another (perhaps safer?) place. The producer/director team on this film took pains to patiently tell us this wrenching yet compelling story.
He hates that he doesn't have control. Everything is falling. Everything is dependent on the man who can move the people on the floor. The floor manager knows that everything depends on him in this moment, and he shows it on how he talks to the big boss. Empathy vs no Empathy
My question is what resources and discretion Carmelo had to just grab Eric Dale at 6:30am. A former employee, nobody knew where he was, and being frogmarched back in to help out the company that fired him. How would Carmelo do it?
The film does justice in recognising the many management levels and their dependencies but the film incorrectly depicts the sheer numbers of the many, many more numbers of traders even in this single mortgage-centric department.
Being a Boss is hard. When you're at the top you deserve what you get but just like the God Atlas you are holding everything together to keep everyone ticking not happy. I've seen first-hand what being the one to execute hard decisions looks like, I've seen bosses go to rehab due to emotional distress when a company crumbles, paying more salaries to the assets that keep the company afloat even if it puts them in the red, Client losses, Fights. Employees who just like a 9-5 should never enter a boardroom because the mental capacity to withstand pressure is enormous if you're not ready for it. When you're ready to become an Owner, Manager, Exec....please watch Margin Call because it's very much like this if you work at a big company.
I don't remember seeing this in the movie? Did I get a different cut? Or is there a mandela effect going on? Are they cutting the movie for different region? What other things have I missed in different regions?
His reservations make no sense. It’s going to happen anyway. The ship is sinking and he’s refusing the life boat. Sacrificing himself helps nobody; it’s guilt and defeatism, not honor.
If you have ever worked and lived for a Co...that's does not give a Fook, in the end, and YOU had these conversations, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THIS. LOYALTY is always assumed to be purchased by the owners, BUT, it's A HUMAN TRIBAL INSTINCT TO STICK AND NOT TWIST, and so, the ships pass in the night.
@@JohnS-il1dr not to mention that with what was about to go down, the axe would bludgeon every financial institution. He would be unhireable, leaving or no leaving. Taking the deal was his only way out to survive.
Save the firm, your reputation and your money or save the economy. Millions of people in the US and even worldwide lost their house because of what you see in this movie. Yes, that was an alternative and many people contemplated whether to be a part of this or not. Now they fucked up the market and robbed millions of innocent people of their homes and future. For us outsiders, yes letting the firm take the hit would've been the best thing to happen bro...
@@FragLord Weren't they going to be losing their homes anyway? I'm trying to put together the stories of Margin Call and The Big Short. From what I can gather, these bonds that were based on shitty mortgages and then the CDOs were essentially the asset/liability that the firm was holding in Margin Call. The firm in Margin Call wants to sell these securities off to other banks before the other banks realize that it is all dogshit. But the reason that it is dogshit is because people took out unaffordable adjustable rate mortgages and were defaulting on them. I think it was the retirement accounts, 401ks, pensions that got fucked up because of this because they were also invested in this dogshit security. Meanwhile, the guys in The Big Short didn't do anything unethical. They found out that the mortgage bonds were dogshit and bet against them when everyone else thought that the mortgage bonds were invincible securities.
@@FragLordThe economy would not have been saved if the firm went under, because those assets were worthless no matter what. Bankruptcy would not have restored their value, and their value was not destroyed by selling them to others. The other banks who bought were also holding their own portfolios of the same toxic BS. The economy crashed because when everyone realised the assets were worth nil, the banks stopped lending to each other and at the same time the housing market valuations dived to rock bottom. Tuld just moved first to spread more of their share of toxic BS around before the entire house of cards collapsed, as it would have done anyway.
@@Blashmack Maybe you need to watch the movie again and read some macro economic analyses about what happened in that period of time... Saved might be a big word, but their scheme destroyed the market and investors big and small, no matter the portfolio or investment sold everything they had en mass. No matter what they invested in. Because you couldn't thrust anyone. If they would've had a sit around with everyone, including the government. The damages could have been mitigated significantly. If there is one thing that capital hates it's lack of confidence & transparency and instability. Tons of good working companies and even entire industries, with good books and good numbers got hammered. That only happens if there is a severe lack of confidence at the investor's side. The action of their company was one of the main reasons why so many people lost faith and confidence. So yes, they definitely made the entire situation much worse by a significant margin. You can disagree with me on that, but the majority of macro economists won't. Investing is just as much about sentiment as it is about numbers... That's why any brics currency is doomed to fail. One it's made up of 2 arch enemies, 2 it's full of instable dictatorships and 3 for a currency to work, that also means everyone has to make some sort of a economic union and the abolishment of current national currencies. And then there needs to be one central body, like the ECB with the Euro, to control it to everybody's satisfaction... Why would nobody invest in it? If it would succeed the potential is massive. It would combine the biggest producer, the 2 largest populations, largest economy in Africa, largest economy full of resources in SA and the biggest exporter of energy into one economic union and as a bonus you get Iran :D . Solid gold right? But not one person has confidence in it ever succeeding, so it won't... Money loves stability, transparency and confidence. The stability was broken, but their actions lost them transparency and confidence. 1 was an industry problem, 2 was the responsibility of them and no-one else...
@@FragLord Except that isn't what happened. The mortgages weren't getting paid. Those people were going to get foreclosed on either way. The only question is who was going to be hanging onto that worthless security.
When all in management know the firm is dying the knives come out in order to carve out for oneself as much of the dying entity as possible -- watch out below!
@@blackcat4859 It doesn't matter if you're a normal guy, a millionaire or a billionaire you always need the money. Considering his seniority and his decades with the firm I'd say it was much more than 5 times the traders got but we'll never know.
@@Pucukax With little info we got I would assume it would be over 10 million and here's why. One 10m alone is a drop in the hat compared to what they could lose if he walks out. I'd even go as much as 25m because of that alone. Then Tuld knows he needs him to stick around for a few years to rebuild the firm and get it back to where it was. So even if Sam had a chance at another firm after the big sell off it would be out the window if he stayed. Maybe some one would scoop him up for a discount if he walked out before the sell. But after the big sell Sam knows he's fucked. His rep is ruined for not only knowing about it but helping the firm get out from under it. So Luld isn't buying loyalty he's buying a 2nd chance. Sam is clearly the best at what he does, he got the firm to where it is. He also has an ex wife and most likely a ton of debt. Also a lot of his money or savings is prolly wrapped up in the firm so if he was worth 100m after the sell he is worth a fraction of that. So he needs the money to rebuild his own wealth back, not for bills and rent and shit.
I always thought that Sam's main concern with the plan was the effect that this action would have on his traders' careers and not what it would mean for him personally, so I assumed what was on the paper was the figure that the firm would pay the traders. Sam mentions this in the speech before the fire sale ($1.4M if they sell 90+% and an additional $1.3M if the floor sells 90+%).
Honestly, I don't know why all these people care. They all have money probably more than 3 times enough for the rest of their lives and yet they're making fuss about things going south. If I were in their shoes, I'd make sure that I had 2-3 million dollars and quit and led a quiet life with some rewarding job where you get emotions and a sense of being needed
The situation was so bad that I doubt anyone was even thinking about sleep. Probably running on pure adrenaline through the night and through the fire sale the following day.
There is a scene where Spacey's character is laying back in his office chair. Yeah, they found moments to close their eyes and rest a bit. Not they didn't put on pajamas and get under the covers for eight hours. It was an eventful night. They didn't know how the following day would end up. They didn't know if the firm would collapse, if their would be massive layoffs, who would take the fall and if federal regulators would step in and investigate.
this dialog doesnt make sense at all. Sam is obviously motivated very heavoily by money as shown towards the end. Also, he clearly showed earlier that the job isnt personal to him and he has a level of i dont care attitude about it. So why is he so intent about this reservations ?? makes no sense why he would behave that way
![Shenseea - Dating Szn (Options) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eUePmZFIXUg/mqdefault.jpg)
I love how this movie shows how people at every level experience different kinds of frustration
really no reason for kevin spaceman to fucking put up a fuss! IT WAS VERY GENEROUS!!!! WHAT THE FUCK WAS HIS PROBLEM! DO YOUR JOB FUCKING DRAMA QUEEN!
Tuld's character is very believable for the position he holds. He does just more than guess when the music stops ... he also sizes up people and implements them where they are most effective, without letting any animosity or sarcasm on their part cloud his judgment
In a sense he is "guessing when the music stops" or not, when it comes to his people.
So where was he when they made the decision to go with this risky strategy in the first place?
He made a bad call, his second one is to offload the responsibility of that call
@@SOLOcan Like I said ... a believable character. Delegate failure, assume responsibility for success.
@@josiah5776 in that sense I agree.
My issue is often that people often play this off as some elite strategic ceo mindset when it’s really a very easy thing to do.
It’s called cowardice.
Yes the 2008 global financial crisis was primarily a systemic failure and thus when put in Jeremy Irons place I would also likely have done the same thing. But it doesn’t mean I can play it off as me being a brilliant leader who gets paid to make the hard decisions. If this was any other job except CEO I would be fired at minimum. (Instead it is half his staff who has to leave)
I cannot use my duty as an excuse for my actions.
@@SOLOcan Oh yeah. Absolutely agree with you on all those points. Neither ethical nor brilliant ... just clever at using people.
This is the only time in the movie where Tuld seem to lose control. He knows how Sam is key to the execution of the plan.
I'm actually thinking the opposite - did he ever *have* control until the end scene with Sam in the restaurant? If Eric hadn't have given the file to Peter on a whim, or if Peter had joined the others in the bar that night, or if he hadn't have figured it out with his maths background, then the discovery was not being made that night and who knows when. Tuld also had to publicly fire his Head of Risk Management, half his trading floors, and probably black-list his company going forwards from his fellow sales associates from doing what they did. I can't help but think that Tuld was just lucky, rather than being in complete control of the situation. Yes he was 'first', it was just by chance
@@euan1234your whole argument is based on bunch of “ifs”.. 3 ifs actually. just admit that he is a badass
@@gailerlindsey8158 oh, of course he was badass - that is no doubt! My argument is that when exactly was he going to swoop in and save the situation, had these chance events not happened that particular day? Because nobody else seemed to be making any moves, so his firm was about to get caught up in it also? Anyways, it is just a fictional storyline so it doesn't really matter
@Gailer Lindsey I think you're making the opposite point to the one you think you're making.
To me, it feels like most of the pain Tuld was exhibiting was the fact that that check was coming out of Tuld's own pocket and that there was a chance the money could stop flowing... Never once was it ever "about the firm"--inability to reply whenever the "firm" or the "company" was brought up--but about Tuld having money, staying in power, and not having to downgrade
Kevin spacey and jeremy irons could recite baking recipes and id watch it.
I have now seen this entire move on youtube.
Lol I was thinking the same thing. Pretty sure I’ve watched the meeting scene at least 50 times in the past year randomly and every single time I never stop it.
no you haven't
@@chocolatecoveredgummybears yes, I have.
no you have not lmao@@TheDude_Abides_
@@chocolatecoveredgummybears your profile picture might be the ugliest dog I have ever seen
All that money and no urinal dividers? Weak.
urinal dividers? in a mens room ? simple u skip the urinal next to the one thats being occupied if not u go to the stall.. if u cant handle that feel free to use the ladies room
@@eton13_ Your conditions are acceptable.
I thought the same thing!!!! 😂
You guys have more than two urinals side by side?
They dont spend money on their workers. This is probably for the lower staff.
This entire movie is a master class of acting
Yes, it is! It’s one of my favorites. I worked the the mortgage loan servicing industry when this all went down. Our servicing company was owned by Merrill Lynch. This movie is phenomenal in how it portrays the crash from the perspective of a Wall Street firm, and the acting is nothing short of superb.
At least he gets a bonus, i gave away my loyalty for less than minimum wage 😂
It was more than a bonus to sam, it was for all the big traders for Sam to offer to them to clear their books
Im loyal too, but I go where my loyalty is valued most.
$5 and a handy behind the Wendy's?
they also don't require you to destroy the world economy and start the wipe out of 60 trillion usd
@@tothbalazs1691 well to be fair in the movie it was going to happen regardless. if a tidal wave is coming you might as well climb the tallest tree. yea it's fkd up that you lived and others died but nothing you can do will stop the tidal wave so you might as well survive.
For a film thats actually got quite a simple premise. (Big company will go broke if it doesnt do something unethical but legal) Its a testament to cast and crew that you end up hanging on every word for just under 2 hours
I think the way it works so well is by starting from something small, seemingly unimportant, the handing of the USB to Spock, and then lowly Spock peers into the mysterious projection... and that's how the after-math... the big Enchilada... just mushroom-clouds...
Without that humble beginning, nobody would be impressed with how powerful the nuke was.
For some reason the intro of "The Peacemaker" comes to mind.
@@vijayramamurthy9332 something the gardener does to your mom.
@@GregMoress if you pay attention you know the seniors even including Sam knew what was happening from the very beginning. Peter coming up with the calculation just made them realize they need to act urgently to be first before it's too late. Most of the conversations with Peter and Seth are just a charade.
I think its because of the simplicity, not in spite of it
Unethical is an understatement
One of the best made movies of all time & 100% one of the most important documentaries ever made.
Jeremy Irons kills it in this movie.
When you're a hostage to money you have no options.
a hostage to money. im remembering that
When money is a hostage to you, you have many.
The fact Sam didn't give back the cheque when he walked out, highlights how capitalism and/or self interest continue to thrive most of the time.
I mean what else is he going to do? He’s screwed either way might as well take the money…
I have yet to be able to buy groceries for my family with principle.
@bjh1964 That's the thing mate , for all his posturing to John and maybe he was truly struggling with the morality of it all , he still took it.And 99 .999 % of us would do the exact same thing .
that's part of what frustrates this character. It comes up in a later informal meeting with tulde. Sam needs the money (for his current lifestyle). Thus ethics come last, even if it irritated him.
Relax
So many great scenes in this movie. That they are in the pisser in this one is authentic. Neutral territory for that kind of guy. If you buy into the basic premise of the story, which is that they all knew (except for Seth - portrayed as self absorbed because they are everywhere) something was up. A lot of respect and animosity between these two. Imagine the battles over the years. But, although they do a nice job with suspense, Tuld 100% would know that Sam needs the money. He lets Sam keep his dignity, even as he pummels him, because he's already thinking about next week. He needs Sam to lead everyone who crawls out of the wreckage. He needed to throw him a bone and a big one
...and he needs the money because his wife divorced him before the crash (she cashed out at the top) and his settlement in CT or NY will be ruinous for the rest of his life.
Jared Vennett’s bathroom scene in The Big Short > 😂
@@sammencia7945 That... and after the divorce, losing his dog, not thinking about how the crash would affect his son... Sam is a man who lost his soul and hates that he became who he is. He needs the money financially, but after he failed to get out to try and scrape together any semblance of who he is outside the firm... He needs the money. The job, the firm, the people he deals with. Everything related to the money... He needs it.
@@sammencia7945 True. An underplayed but very important part of the film. And his dog has to be put down!
I cant believe it's only 14 years after the subprime crisis, and majority of the comments here already have no memory of that thus have no idea what the movie is about.
Dude, I was there, and I didn't know much about it until I listened to a podcast. Specifically, Business Movers, S8.
All these people with no clue of what's about to happen.
From what I understand the banks are still doing this garbage because literally nobody went to jail and many of them got bailed out by the taxpayers.
@@Sam-ed7jz nothing.
I remember my dad had to come home because his contract and the ship he was in was being scrapped.
At first it was good news because he would be home for christmas. but then we would found out that it would be months for the next contract and would be 6 month duration, no longer 9 months with possible extension.
I had to stop my college education because of the financial situation.
Considering other people got worse and lost everything in the 2008 and 2009 financial crisis, I'd say we got off light.
Two of the very greatest actors of all time.
Yeah I liked Spacey.
That piece of paper - I'm better it was a coupon for a free Bargain Bucket, right?
Jelly of the Month Club
It had 'Epstein didn't kill himself' written on it
It was a coupon for “1 free blowjob”
@@Dfk429S9fo3 "the gift that keeps on given all year round"
That's why it's very generous.
I appreciate the symbolism at the very start where he throws garbage away and does a lax luster fist pump that he accomplished his goal. When one shot with no words can describe the entire movie, I think that shows great direction.
Tuld threw Sam a bone, and a pretty big one...
Rather inconvenient seeing as Sam’s dog just died 😅
I can’t believe I just made that joke, I’m horrible…
he forgot to give the check back
he didn't forget to give the check back,
he remembered to keep it
Plot twist: The check bounced
what a cast. this movie is flawless. and it was released in 2010, very close to the real events.
Prescient script-writing for sure!
1:30
This is why legal and Sam's boss were both present at the 630am meeting. Sam's boss wanted to fire him but John said "keep him".
Why would he want to fire him?
@@kincaidwolf5184
He was part of the division that lost money. 60% of his floor was fired that day and not by him. He didn't do a good job up to that point, which is why Jared fired most of his floor.
@@sammencia7945 The floor was fired before the discovery. Nobody was sacked after the discovery. Infact, they kept people on deliberately until the events played their their course.
@@kincaidwolf5184
They were talking about it the year before. All Sr Management knew and were cutting costs before the economy tanked.
They retained only Sullivan.
Everyone else was fired, and they were ALWAYS going to be fired.
@@sammencia7945 No, certain elements of the leadership knew. The shareholders did not know. Otherwise they would have bailed out long before. If your entire fortune and pension is invested into the company, you don't want these risks. The leadership, led by Tuld, were happy to ignore the warning signs as long as they got their bonuses and sales remained upbeat. Everyone knew the market was going to crash at some stage. While the party was going, they made sure to earn as much as possible. The floor was let go because in 2006/2007 the economy went into recession. And at the start, you're seeing the consequences of that. It was in 2008 where these events took place. The film just sped up the process which takes months. By the end of the film, most people were cut because there was no job for them. The market was finished. They retained the best talent, which isn't unusual. They weren't fired, they were made redundant. Huge difference. The only person that was "fired" as such was the woman who was head of risk. She wasn't really fired but bought off with a huge payday. But anyways why was she "fired"? Because Tuld had to explain to the shareholders how did he fuck up the company so bad. Tuld used her as a sacrifice lamb. She could have fought him and gone to the shareholders or made a legal complaint, he even says to her "don't fight me on this". She didn't and took the big payday.
Sam does very little to nothing but inspire the morale of the team. He makes all that money to do so. What a world.
Truly a fantastic movie loved every minute of it
Have not been in financial services at this level but I participate in sales for several high-tech companies that asked us to keep selling a product on the streets that we knew was out of gas (competitively speaking.) Ugly.
It’s a one year membership to the Jelly-of-the-month Club
"It's the gift that keeps on giving"
That thing when Tuld leans his forehead against the wall after the confrontation ends, is very accurate. This type of character works people by bursting energy at them using pre-practiced speeches and concentrating confidence into 'public encounters'. When those encounters end, it's just a dead battery there.
think of this character what you want, but he nailed that paper towel throw
Amazing that this was the directing and writing feature length picture debut for JC Chandor. Can you imagine giving that cast direction on your first movie?
Eric Dale knows he can contribute value to the firm as he always did.
it would have to have been 5 mill dollars min for Sam, as the traders were getting a few mill each if they sold their garbage. I thought Spacey was generous to the Sam character. A man who made millions a year taking risks, buying garbage, then has a morality check the moment the greed gets out. Then he gets paid off another 5 or 10 mill, and gets to stay for 2 more years. By then, the market may well have come back anyway. I think this Sam had no morals at all in real life, he was just worried about his reputation in the market.
absolutely
Well yeah reputation is everything in finance. You build 34 years worth of customers, clients, partners, trust. To throw it all away, even better. You basically lie to all your costumers saying you have a steal on hand, when actually you are handing them the bag. That has to be a hell of a position to be in. He had no options. If he would quit on the spot, he would have no reputation, no money and no future. Now he has no reputation and no future, but enough money to retire.
Definitely 5 mil minimum, considering Eric Dale got 3 million just to come back to the firm and sit in a room.
He said he was making 176471 dollars an hour to sit quietly in a room. That's 3 million divided by 17.
@pilotguy822 how is that 17 hours? They got him back by 6.30 roughly and presumably he had to stay there till 4 when the markets closed
It’s really one of the best films I’ve ever seen. Sure, I love and understand the subject matter (a lot of people don’t), but the acting and pacing is superb
Sam pledges his allegiance "to the firm", knowing full well that Tuld is asking for a deeper commitment. Tuld wants Sam's allegiance TO HIM. He doesn't need Sam to lead the troops into battle, he needs him to march them off a cliff. Is that what's best for the firm? Of course not. But it is what Tuld has decided is in his own best interests. Sam knows this, which is why he walks off in disgust. He's disgusted with Tuld, and himself...because he has already agreed to do Tuld's dirty work. Tuld wants a final nod from Sam because he knows how much he has riding on this, but Sam is silently screaming:
"I'll do it. Just don't make me say it."
walking home with multi-million dollar bonuses is hardly "marching off a cliff". The whole point of the movie is that it's normal people who lose money, not Wallstreet.
@@busTedOaS They are literally being asked to destroy their careers. After the fire sale, they have no job at the firm, or anywhere else. Yes, pay off or no pay off, that is very much "marching off a cliff". There are no more battles to fight after this, because this is a battle no one will walk away from.
@@EyeMixMusic If that's really how you would feel walking away with a million dollars in your hands... then that's called greed and is the whole reason this stuff keeps happening.
For those missing the point, Tuld is basically bribing Sam and ask him not to rat him out when Feds come in with investigation.
what investigation? they did nothing wrong.
I still can’t figure out why Tuld, being the richest and most powerful man in the building, is the ONLY one wearing a button-down collar. What’s the meaning behind that? That’s not the collar a CEO would wear.
Not everyone has a great sense of style.
Whoever wrote the title of this video either didn't watch this scene or didn't understand it. John doesn't try to reward Sam for his loyalty, he tries to buy it
Good motivation.
Imagine your boss instructing you to tell 60 traders who are working under you to get on the phone and sell complete dog shit to anybody who will buy it.
Sam should have simply said- if you want to be sure, double the amount of this check😂
However, he’s told John his reservations.
The wall must have smelled very nice.
Tries to Pay Sam Generously?! Sam takes the check. Pretty sure about this.
Every hedge fund short in GameStop should watch this movie.
The first one out survives.
I’ve often wondered if the offer was for Sam or if the offer was to everyone on the floor selling. Otherwise, why would Sam agree to stay after the fire sale and admit he still needs the money?
Good point but perhaps his divorce and subsequent marital divide has left him broke with no savings. So then also needs the stable salary for another few years to stay accustomed to the life he has led
haha good joke
He will never sell anything to anyone again, so he needs the money,
I feel like I'm at a urinal over hearing this conversation.
Set metaphor: sizing up your co-workers
audio is too low
I wished my former boss also gave me a little white memo pad with a big fat number on it to convince me to participate in a special task for the company.
and that...that's what selling your SOUL is worth...
I would never lean up against a bathroom wall let alone plant my head into it.
I would if my firm was at risk. Probably lean up against a toilet seat. 🤣
@@ericlaw5661 Point taken.
What exactly do you think is happening on the wall in there?
Then you've never worked in the executive offices of a major firm. That men's room at 4am is likely cleaner than your kitchen table, and definitely cleaner than any airport security area where you take off your shoes without a second thought.
@@a1aprospects470 I was only surprised to see the paper hand towels. I had expected proper cloth hand towels.
Think how long Sam's been with tuld to have your boss come into the bathroom for a "one last ride, I need you" speech n to basically be told "fuck you"
am wondering why Sam appears to not have been promoted to Jared's level (at least) of seniority, let alone to executive partner or smth
@@TSERJIat least in my firm, there are some senior people who want a little peace in this chaos world. Even the CEO repeatedly offer better position, these guys keep their current position with excellent results. Come, do job, get money, go home. Fuck politics. Seems like that
@@arsyadiahmad271 but then aren't you foregoing a higher paycheck?
Sam's character irritated me in this film.
He repeatedly raised objections to the firm's plan to save itself from disaster yet did not once suggest an alternative.
He had also been working in a lucrative job for 40 years but he still needed money which made me wonder how intelligent he was.
He probably was wiped out in his divorce. He definitely lost his house. I think it's underestimated how bad an emotional state Sam was in at this moment. Lost his marriage, his home, losing his dog, his company crashing. His entire world is coming apart.
I think he was thinking they could take the hit. Which you're right, is stupid given the loss that Peters model showed
@@Bowhuntingskills One thing that didn’t make sense to me was that Peter stated that if the toxic assets went down in value by 25%, the loss would be greater than the company’s market capitalisation.
But you shouldn’t need fancy mathematical models to figure this out.
All you need to know is that the toxic assets have a current value that is more than four times the company’s market capitalisation.
But I suppose films have to simplify things like this.
You earn respect.
You buy loyalty.
- Me
Easy to be generous with other people's money.
Audio mix is too low, can't hear. Reencode.
I wouldn’t press my head against anything inside a public bathroom.
Thats not a public bathroom. And its likely on the executive floor so that makes it an executive bathroom. Those walls are probably cleaner then the plate you eat off of every night.
I would really love to work in a firm like this, but I'm pretty sure they would sack me on day one.
“Ohhhh I quiver with feeeear”
When two Disney villians meet up in later lives on Wall Street...
And then his speech was that good he allowed himself to finish it up with a “For the greater good” like, WTF cares anymore we are all getting paid handsomely, so let’s get it done.
Wasnt Irons in the movie, the Mission...another great flick
Yes, the 1986 version. We just re-watched this "old movie" and appreciated it all over again.
@@Borzoi86 that was it. 1986...yes, saw it in the theater and made me have tears
@@vincentkosik403 We particularly love the soundtrack with the heavenly singing at the end of them movie as fire arrows are raining down on the encampment. Poignant to see those kids gather and paddle away upstream to start again in another (perhaps safer?) place. The producer/director team on this film took pains to patiently tell us this wrenching yet compelling story.
He hates that he doesn't have control. Everything is falling. Everything is dependent on the man who can move the people on the floor. The floor manager knows that everything depends on him in this moment, and he shows it on how he talks to the big boss. Empathy vs no Empathy
Tuld way of begging sam to help him get out of this mess he help create
I think he's with the firm.
I would need the gold upfront at this point...
Where is Carmelo as all of this plays out?
My question is what resources and discretion Carmelo had to just grab Eric Dale at 6:30am. A former employee, nobody knew where he was, and being frogmarched back in to help out the company that fired him.
How would Carmelo do it?
The film does justice in recognising the many management levels and their dependencies but the film incorrectly depicts the sheer numbers of the many, many more numbers of traders even in this single mortgage-centric department.
Being a Boss is hard. When you're at the top you deserve what you get but just like the God Atlas you are holding everything together to keep everyone ticking not happy. I've seen first-hand what being the one to execute hard decisions looks like, I've seen bosses go to rehab due to emotional distress when a company crumbles, paying more salaries to the assets that keep the company afloat even if it puts them in the red, Client losses, Fights. Employees who just like a 9-5 should never enter a boardroom because the mental capacity to withstand pressure is enormous if you're not ready for it. When you're ready to become an Owner, Manager, Exec....please watch Margin Call because it's very much like this if you work at a big company.
I don't remember seeing this in the movie? Did I get a different cut? Or is there a mandela effect going on? Are they cutting the movie for different region? What other things have I missed in different regions?
Ironically, you missed this scene because it occurred while you stepped out to use the restroom.
Quick! Call the bank and cancel the check!
His reservations make no sense. It’s going to happen anyway. The ship is sinking and he’s refusing the life boat. Sacrificing himself helps nobody; it’s guilt and defeatism, not honor.
Towards the end there I think Sam thinks John is wearing a wire or recording him
The biggest question here is, what was the value written in that check? 😆
Approx 10 mill
If you have ever worked and lived for a Co...that's does not give a Fook, in the end, and YOU had these conversations, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THIS.
LOYALTY is always assumed to be purchased by the owners, BUT, it's A HUMAN TRIBAL INSTINCT TO STICK AND NOT TWIST, and so, the ships pass in the night.
Margin Call 2: Currency Collapse
I don't remember seeing Sam give the check back. So he did get bought!
Remember the scene when Sam wanted out? He said he wanted his options and his bonus. He took the check. He admitted he needed the money
@@JohnS-il1dr not to mention that with what was about to go down, the axe would bludgeon every financial institution. He would be unhireable, leaving or no leaving. Taking the deal was his only way out to survive.
Why am i so stuck on this movie theres no car crashes no soldiers shooting no dragons breathing fire
What does Sam see as the alternative here? Let the firm take the hit completely?
Save the firm, your reputation and your money or save the economy. Millions of people in the US and even worldwide lost their house because of what you see in this movie. Yes, that was an alternative and many people contemplated whether to be a part of this or not. Now they fucked up the market and robbed millions of innocent people of their homes and future. For us outsiders, yes letting the firm take the hit would've been the best thing to happen bro...
@@FragLord Weren't they going to be losing their homes anyway?
I'm trying to put together the stories of Margin Call and The Big Short. From what I can gather, these bonds that were based on shitty mortgages and then the CDOs were essentially the asset/liability that the firm was holding in Margin Call. The firm in Margin Call wants to sell these securities off to other banks before the other banks realize that it is all dogshit. But the reason that it is dogshit is because people took out unaffordable adjustable rate mortgages and were defaulting on them.
I think it was the retirement accounts, 401ks, pensions that got fucked up because of this because they were also invested in this dogshit security.
Meanwhile, the guys in The Big Short didn't do anything unethical. They found out that the mortgage bonds were dogshit and bet against them when everyone else thought that the mortgage bonds were invincible securities.
@@FragLordThe economy would not have been saved if the firm went under, because those assets were worthless no matter what. Bankruptcy would not have restored their value, and their value was not destroyed by selling them to others. The other banks who bought were also holding their own portfolios of the same toxic BS. The economy crashed because when everyone realised the assets were worth nil, the banks stopped lending to each other and at the same time the housing market valuations dived to rock bottom. Tuld just moved first to spread more of their share of toxic BS around before the entire house of cards collapsed, as it would have done anyway.
@@Blashmack Maybe you need to watch the movie again and read some macro economic analyses about what happened in that period of time...
Saved might be a big word, but their scheme destroyed the market and investors big and small, no matter the portfolio or investment sold everything they had en mass. No matter what they invested in. Because you couldn't thrust anyone. If they would've had a sit around with everyone, including the government. The damages could have been mitigated significantly.
If there is one thing that capital hates it's lack of confidence & transparency and instability. Tons of good working companies and even entire industries, with good books and good numbers got hammered. That only happens if there is a severe lack of confidence at the investor's side. The action of their company was one of the main reasons why so many people lost faith and confidence. So yes, they definitely made the entire situation much worse by a significant margin. You can disagree with me on that, but the majority of macro economists won't.
Investing is just as much about sentiment as it is about numbers... That's why any brics currency is doomed to fail.
One it's made up of 2 arch enemies, 2 it's full of instable dictatorships and 3 for a currency to work, that also means everyone has to make some sort of a economic union and the abolishment of current national currencies. And then there needs to be one central body, like the ECB with the Euro, to control it to everybody's satisfaction...
Why would nobody invest in it? If it would succeed the potential is massive. It would combine the biggest producer, the 2 largest populations, largest economy in Africa, largest economy full of resources in SA and the biggest exporter of energy into one economic union and as a bonus you get Iran :D . Solid gold right? But not one person has confidence in it ever succeeding, so it won't...
Money loves stability, transparency and confidence. The stability was broken, but their actions lost them transparency and confidence. 1 was an industry problem, 2 was the responsibility of them and no-one else...
@@FragLord Except that isn't what happened. The mortgages weren't getting paid. Those people were going to get foreclosed on either way. The only question is who was going to be hanging onto that worthless security.
who just like me wonders how large that check was?
$ usually talks and wins
When all in management know the firm is dying the knives come out in order to carve out for oneself as much of the dying entity as possible -- watch out below!
Tuld better wash his forehead.
i would never put my face on the wall of a bathroom i dont care how clean it is
How much was the check is my question.
I wonder how much was on that cheque ?
what number are we talking about?
No barriers between the urinals?
buying loyalty
Eric? Eric Dale? Not in the Men's Room either.
Whatever number was written down on that piece of paper back then is not as impressive today in 2024 lol
How much do we think that check was?
considering even the traders were getting a million+ bonusses atleast 2-5 times that
@@killerboybe1515 if it was that high than he wouldn't say at the end that he stays on because he needs the money, right?
@@blackcat4859 It doesn't matter if you're a normal guy, a millionaire or a billionaire you always need the money. Considering his seniority and his decades with the firm I'd say it was much more than 5 times the traders got but we'll never know.
@@Pucukax With little info we got I would assume it would be over 10 million and here's why. One 10m alone is a drop in the hat compared to what they could lose if he walks out. I'd even go as much as 25m because of that alone. Then Tuld knows he needs him to stick around for a few years to rebuild the firm and get it back to where it was. So even if Sam had a chance at another firm after the big sell off it would be out the window if he stayed. Maybe some one would scoop him up for a discount if he walked out before the sell. But after the big sell Sam knows he's fucked. His rep is ruined for not only knowing about it but helping the firm get out from under it. So Luld isn't buying loyalty he's buying a 2nd chance. Sam is clearly the best at what he does, he got the firm to where it is. He also has an ex wife and most likely a ton of debt. Also a lot of his money or savings is prolly wrapped up in the firm so if he was worth 100m after the sell he is worth a fraction of that. So he needs the money to rebuild his own wealth back, not for bills and rent and shit.
@@blackcat4859 if only it worked that way. if only.
So, what the price?
How much was the check for?? I am guessing a cool one million........
10
This was the moment Tuld became Simon Gruber
How much do you guys think is on that check?
3 million?
$162,000,000.00
$7.5M
@@michaelwall812 lol
Seeing as how he was willing to pay every trader over $2.5 million I would bet that check was somewhere around $15-20 million.
I hear Frank Underwood's voice in this scene
I want to know the figure on the paper?
Prob 10 times his salary. The boss didn’t hide his desperation. I’d say 5-10 mil. Whatever it was I’d ask for double at least
tree fiddy
@@Threshk aware.
@@Threshk A South Park fan and a man of culture I see 👀 👌 👏 😎 😏 Dang OL Lochnyss Monster !!!
I always thought that Sam's main concern with the plan was the effect that this action would have on his traders' careers and not what it would mean for him personally, so I assumed what was on the paper was the figure that the firm would pay the traders. Sam mentions this in the speech before the fire sale ($1.4M if they sell 90+% and an additional $1.3M if the floor sells 90+%).
Honestly, I don't know why all these people care. They all have money probably more than 3 times enough for the rest of their lives and yet they're making fuss about things going south. If I were in their shoes, I'd make sure that I had 2-3 million dollars and quit and led a quiet life with some rewarding job where you get emotions and a sense of being needed
This system s doomed we re all screwed
Almost like watching Sam bank man fuck up for someone else.
Could not be more different at all and unrelated
@@robs2579 mmm... still happens. Ask black rock and others that take private firms over via proxy just to shit things up intentionally...
Did Sam and others even sleep that night? Looks like they were having meeting all night long and started work early next morning.
I think a lot of them didn’t sleep that night.
The situation was so bad that I doubt anyone was even thinking about sleep. Probably running on pure adrenaline through the night and through the fire sale the following day.
not even the sight of a coffee or red bull either (or was there coffee when Sam and Peter were standing outside, I forget)
yeah, one part they got wrong, their clothes would have been ridiculously wrinkled by then.
There is a scene where Spacey's character is laying back in his office chair. Yeah, they found moments to close their eyes and rest a bit. Not they didn't put on pajamas and get under the covers for eight hours. It was an eventful night. They didn't know how the following day would end up. They didn't know if the firm would collapse, if their would be massive layoffs, who would take the fall and if federal regulators would step in and investigate.
this dialog doesnt make sense at all. Sam is obviously motivated very heavoily by money as shown towards the end. Also, he clearly showed earlier that the job isnt personal to him and he has a level of i dont care attitude about it. So why is he so intent about this reservations ?? makes no sense why he would behave that way