From "Safer at Home" time in the USA, I have discovered this series of videos and have enjoyed them all. Nice bite-sized reviews of important events, people, trends and historic facts. Dr. Kat is very articulate, careful with credits for origin of images and concepts (much appreciated) and open in her views and interpretations. Very well done across the board. Anyone who has done non-fiction writing knows how disciplined one must be to maintain credits and how important it is to support one's credibility in presentation. With thanks for the work and the video series.
I was reading a biography on another person that applies here and she said ‘There is the vision our friends have of us, the vision we have of ourselves, the vision that our lovers have, and finally the vision our enemies have... but all of these visions are different. I have no doubt that dear William saw Mary through a beautiful pair of love glasses.... if only we could all be so blessed! ❤️
I LOVE love love the way you read the essay on the education of women!! and I do think Mary meant to come across as sarcastic and/or tongue in cheek. She does seem a woman after my own heart. I would love to learn more about her. Any reading recommendations? So happy to have discovered your channel! One of the best history channels on RUclips.
I just love Mary Shelley. It was through her that I became interested in her mother. Absolutely loved “A Vindication of the Rights of Woman” by Mary Wollstonecraft. She was an intelligent and outspoken woman.
Dr Kat, don't you feel there is a parallel between Mary trying to convince a man to listen to her, and the way Katherine Parr talked herself out of her trouble with Henry VIII? Basically, debasing herself as a woman in order to appeal to his ego and make him feel benevolent? Given how acutely Mary felt about the different treatment that she and her brother had received, I don't think that rhetorics about women's vices was genuine, it was merely smooth talking at a time when she couldn't be staightforward.
I think that she is a most fascinating person. I think that as you say her ideas about the viciousness of women and thier frailties is problematic but i believe it is so because we want to look at her through modern eyes. The fact is that the idea of women being frail and inherent less capable than men was considered scientific fact and would have shaped her thinking. We are all a product of the society we live in even though we work hard to reduce the effext that has on our thinking it is still there. If you interpret her work from the perspective that it was written in she is quite revolutionary. Additionally, it may be possible that she felt she had to concede some points to the learned men leading society because sometimes you can't attack every thing at once and be successful. So you concede a common ground for the sake of argument and progress more deeply later as the person becomes more open minded. Anyway, just some thoughts i had
From your reading, I took Mary's writing to Talleyrand as tongue in cheek, even condescending. Her style is obviously sophisticated, not that of an inferior creature. She found an indirect way to highlight the absurdity of his argument.
Excellent! We don't allow much for the time unrelentingly dictating the writing. The section that you found objectionable, I find remarkable. The failings of women's "nature" were acknowledged because they were the reality. By Mary placing the blame on the lack of proper education (dictated by men) was put squarely into her document. What do you imagine she might have done instead? Thanks, Dr Kat. Your info and presence are solid.
One of the most influential diplomats of the era, Talleyrand was described by Napoleon Bonaparte as "a piece of dung in a silk stocking''. He was a friend of all and a friend of none and was in constant contact with all sides and factions during one of Europe's most tumultuous periods.
I didn't hear that as Mary saying women were vicious or lesser. I heard it as "if you say women do not have reason, you must also admit that they are no more than beasts."
William Godwin does claim in the opening of the _Memoir_ that "The facts detailed in the following pages, are principally taken from the mouth of the person to whom they relate" (i.e. Wollstonecraft herself) and that he "repeatedly" had "conversations" with Wollstonecraft about the incidents of her life that had contributed to her understanding and character. But then he seems to turn her into a tragic ‘sentimental heroine’ figure in his narrative. .. Full quote from the opening of the memoir: "The facts detailed in the following pages, are principally taken from the mouth of the person to whom they relate; and of the veracity and ingenuousness of her habits, perhaps no one that was ever acquainted with her, entertains a doubt. The writer of this narrative, when he has met with persons, that in any degree created to themselves an interest and attachment in his mind, has always felt a curiosity to be acquainted with the scenes through which they had passed, and the incidents that had contributed to form their understandings and character. Impelled by this sentiment, he repeatedly led to the conservations of Mary to topics of this sort; and, once or twice, he made notes in her presence..." (William Godwin, _Memoirs_ _of_ _the_ _Author_ _of_ _A_ _Vindication_ _of_ _the_ _Rights_ _of_ _Woman_ (1798), pp.3-4).
I suppose we have to ask ourselves the question: would it have been better for Godwin not to tell Mary's story at all since she was not around to have input? I don't think so. Given a choice, of course we'd prefer her to tell her own story. But that was not to be. Therefore we only have Godwin's account of her life. And while not being perfect and possibly tainted by grief, it is better than having nothing about her.
I believe some of her writings may have been a sign of her sense of humor that got her in trouble as a child. Her deflection of pain from the men’s world against women made her dark and satirical at times?
I would argue that everyone's story is told by those who survive them. If we are lucky, the people we leave behind know they were loved by us and narrate our lives through the filter of that understanding
As they say, "You can not control everything in the world, just your reaction to it." I think once she died what her legacy was going to be was out of her hands . She should consider herself fortunate that she married someone who loved her the way he did, otherwise we might have had another perspective on her writings all together.
Quite likely. Just the other day, I watched Dr Kat's video about Katherine Parr practically snivelling before Henry VIII to get back in his good graces so that he didn't execute her like her two predecessors, and the "oh, I'm an inferior being" rhetorics is remarkably similar. If she just called the guy out on his BS, he wouldn't have listened, but by being meek and polite, she might have gained at least some points.
I think there’s an element of finessing, but I think she’s also pointing out the glaring inconsistency in seeing women as lacking reason, but expecting them to have virtues and fulfill duties that can only be ‘the sober offspring of reason’ and continuing to hold that view despite seeing women do just that. It’s kind of a, if your view was true let’s follow it to its logical conclusion…. Hmm, not adding up so well, is it? argument.
As the partner of someone with ASD, I shudder to think about how my life would have been represented. Hyper intelligent females often end up with men that accept them as non-traditional. What do we know of Mary's husband?
Mary was not married to the father of her first child. Her daughter Fanny/Francoise was the daughter of Gilbert Imlay. Later Mary became pregnant to William Godwin. He maried Mary, even though both parties were problematic about marriage. God win was very famous at the time, and wrote a great many books. There is a lot written about him. I can recommend the work of Janet Todd. I have recently finished "Death and the Maidens", Fanny's story.
Great video as always, I think her thoughts and works (the ones shown in the video as I lack the overall knowledge of her production) were not as problematic as presented, they looked pretty straightforward and consistently feminist to me.
Hi Dr Kat, adore your videos and have been a viewer/subscriber for some time but I was glad to see you speak about Wollstonecraft here as I am having to write about her for my history degree. And wow, like you I find her problematic. Makes it hard to write about her for sure.
I think that we are much too forgiving of people of the past for their blatant misogyny. Whatever the zeitgeist, has their not always been those making clear the folly of such ideas? And do not all people have the responsibility to at least try to be their better selves? With this in mind mysogyny is obviously, to anyone who appreciates women, a blight upon the civilised status of one's society. But I want to know what you, Dr. Kat think of this considering you will have thought more about this.
There's a wonderful recent novel by the late Helen Dunmore called "Birdcage Walk," some of whose characters are based on Mary Wollstonecraft, Godwin, and their circle: www.theguardian.com/books/2017/mar/17/birdcage-walk-by-helen-dunmore-review
Sounds like poor Mary was born to a couple of malignant narcissists. The golden child/scapegoat scenario. Her rebelliousness and disdain for authority may have come from that.
men are aware many times, of the possibility of vice and error on their part. "to err is human". men learn from their misakes, of which chauvinism is one. why is it difficult to accept that women can do wrong and make mistakes?
So if Mary Wolstencraft could do it - despite her family background. Why couldn't every other woman? There don't appear to have been any insurmountable barriers in her way. So why did other women falter at these barriers? Take education. Men could be educated, if other men were prepared to pay for it and provide it. So why did women not pay for and provide education for other women? After all men did not expect women to provide their education.
The only thing I knew about Mary Wollstonecraft was that she was the author of Frankenstein. I hadn't realized that it was actually her daughter that wrote the book. I'm not a feminist but women certainly got the short end of the stick long ago. It's good to see that some educated women were able to speak out for other women.
I have been teaching Mary Wollenscraft's Vindication of Women's Right for years. I am embarrassed to admit that I never read the background. I learn new things every day.
Not sure your point about W's attitude towards women's 'weaknesses.' Feminists today are still attributing women's negative actions and emotions to men or patriarchy.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
From "Safer at Home" time in the USA, I have discovered this series of videos and have enjoyed them all. Nice bite-sized reviews of important events, people, trends and historic facts. Dr. Kat is very articulate, careful with credits for origin of images and concepts (much appreciated) and open in her views and interpretations. Very well done across the board. Anyone who has done non-fiction writing knows how disciplined one must be to maintain credits and how important it is to support one's credibility in presentation. With thanks for the work and the video series.
Diane Spears,
100% agree! You have stated my opinion better than I could myself.
@@laurielamarche815 And my gratitude knows no bounds for the fact that she DOESN'T use background music!
Hear hear.!
I was reading a biography on another person that applies here and she said ‘There is the vision our friends have of us, the vision we have of ourselves, the vision that our lovers have, and finally the vision our enemies have... but all of these visions are different. I have no doubt that dear William saw Mary through a beautiful pair of love glasses.... if only we could all be so blessed! ❤️
I LOVE love love the way you read the essay on the education of women!! and I do think Mary meant to come across as sarcastic and/or tongue in cheek.
She does seem a woman after my own heart. I would love to learn more about her. Any reading recommendations?
So happy to have discovered your channel! One of the best history channels on RUclips.
A great book is romantic, outlaws by Charlotte Gordon
I just love Mary Shelley. It was through her that I became interested in her mother. Absolutely loved “A Vindication of the Rights of Woman” by Mary Wollstonecraft. She was an intelligent and outspoken woman.
Mary's equally important and fascinating daughter, Mary Shelley might be another worthy subject for a video please Love your videos,
She lived in my home town. .we have a blue plaque on her house
Dr Kat, don't you feel there is a parallel between Mary trying to convince a man to listen to her, and the way Katherine Parr talked herself out of her trouble with Henry VIII? Basically, debasing herself as a woman in order to appeal to his ego and make him feel benevolent? Given how acutely Mary felt about the different treatment that she and her brother had received, I don't think that rhetorics about women's vices was genuine, it was merely smooth talking at a time when she couldn't be staightforward.
I think that she is a most fascinating person. I think that as you say her ideas about the viciousness of women and thier frailties is problematic but i believe it is so because we want to look at her through modern eyes. The fact is that the idea of women being frail and inherent less capable than men was considered scientific fact and would have shaped her thinking. We are all a product of the society we live in even though we work hard to reduce the effext that has on our thinking it is still there. If you interpret her work from the perspective that it was written in she is quite revolutionary. Additionally, it may be possible that she felt she had to concede some points to the learned men leading society because sometimes you can't attack every thing at once and be successful. So you concede a common ground for the sake of argument and progress more deeply later as the person becomes more open minded. Anyway, just some thoughts i had
From your reading, I took Mary's writing to Talleyrand as tongue in cheek, even condescending. Her style is obviously sophisticated, not that of an inferior creature. She found an indirect way to highlight the absurdity of his argument.
Swiftian!
Yes, that's how it seemed to me, too.
I live in the Northern Sydney suburb of Wollstonecraft in Australia, it was named for Edward Wollstonecraft, Mary's nephew.
Excellent! We don't allow much for the time unrelentingly dictating the writing. The section that you found objectionable, I find remarkable. The failings of women's "nature" were acknowledged because they were the reality. By Mary placing the blame on the lack of proper education (dictated by men) was put squarely into her document. What do you imagine she might have done instead? Thanks, Dr Kat. Your info and presence are solid.
One of the most influential diplomats of the era, Talleyrand was described by Napoleon Bonaparte as "a piece of dung in a silk stocking''. He was a friend of all and a friend of none and was in constant contact with all sides and factions during one of Europe's most tumultuous periods.
I came here because of miss Nicaragua! 🇳🇮 ❤👑
I didn't hear that as Mary saying women were vicious or lesser. I heard it as "if you say women do not have reason, you must also admit that they are no more than beasts."
William Godwin does claim in the opening of the _Memoir_ that "The facts detailed in the following pages, are principally taken from the mouth of the person to whom they relate" (i.e. Wollstonecraft herself) and that he "repeatedly" had "conversations" with Wollstonecraft about the incidents of her life that had contributed to her understanding and character. But then he seems to turn her into a tragic ‘sentimental heroine’ figure in his narrative.
..
Full quote from the opening of the memoir:
"The facts detailed in the following pages, are principally taken from the mouth of the person to whom they relate; and of the veracity and ingenuousness of her habits, perhaps no one that was ever acquainted with her, entertains a doubt. The writer of this narrative, when he has met with persons, that in any degree created to themselves an interest and attachment in his mind, has always felt a curiosity to be acquainted with the scenes through which they had passed, and the incidents that had contributed to form their understandings and character. Impelled by this sentiment, he repeatedly led to the conservations of Mary to topics of this sort; and, once or twice, he made notes in her presence..." (William Godwin, _Memoirs_ _of_ _the_ _Author_ _of_ _A_ _Vindication_ _of_ _the_ _Rights_ _of_ _Woman_ (1798), pp.3-4).
Woo! Learning about Mary in a literature class and I’m glad to see this video now!
I suppose we have to ask ourselves the question: would it have been better for Godwin not to tell Mary's story at all since she was not around to have input? I don't think so. Given a choice, of course we'd prefer her to tell her own story. But that was not to be. Therefore we only have Godwin's account of her life. And while not being perfect and possibly tainted by grief, it is better than having nothing about her.
Might have been better if she had had to find a female publisher for her works. How long would we have had to wait I wonder?
This is one of my favorites so far, Kat. Fascinating. A woman I didn't even know existed.
Love this! Well done.
I believe some of her writings may have been a sign of her sense of humor that got her in trouble as a child. Her deflection of pain from the men’s world against women made her dark and satirical at times?
I enjoy your channel very much. Thank you.
I would argue that everyone's story is told by those who survive them. If we are lucky, the people we leave behind know they were loved by us and narrate our lives through the filter of that understanding
Really enjoying these video's of other people from the past I have never read about before ! Leads me down new paths of research haha 😄
As they say, "You can not control everything in the world, just your reaction to it." I think once she died what her legacy was going to be was out of her hands . She should consider herself fortunate that she married someone who loved her the way he did, otherwise we might have had another perspective on her writings all together.
I enjoyed the video a lot !
Great analysis
May she have felt obliged to refer to women's frailty/the whip/ and A Man is the King of his Castle rhetoric in order to get the piece published?
Quite likely. Just the other day, I watched Dr Kat's video about Katherine Parr practically snivelling before Henry VIII to get back in his good graces so that he didn't execute her like her two predecessors, and the "oh, I'm an inferior being" rhetorics is remarkably similar. If she just called the guy out on his BS, he wouldn't have listened, but by being meek and polite, she might have gained at least some points.
I read it more as a Swiftian oration on the place of women, but maybe that's just me.
I think that as long as the author is revealed to be a woman, the article would be recognized as inferior and defeated.
I think there’s an element of finessing, but I think she’s also pointing out the glaring inconsistency in seeing women as lacking reason, but expecting them to have virtues and fulfill duties that can only be ‘the sober offspring of reason’ and continuing to hold that view despite seeing women do just that.
It’s kind of a, if your view was true let’s follow it to its logical conclusion…. Hmm, not adding up so well, is it? argument.
I love your videos--especially the ones about women.
Have you done or might you do something on Radcliffe Hall or 'The Well of Loneliness'?
She is my something great grandmother. In the late 60s my fathers professor at Sacramento State did the lineage. My last name is Woolstencroft
As the partner of someone with ASD, I shudder to think about how my life would have been represented. Hyper intelligent females often end up with men that accept them as non-traditional.
What do we know of Mary's husband?
Mary was not married to the father of her first child. Her daughter Fanny/Francoise was the daughter of Gilbert Imlay. Later Mary became pregnant to William Godwin. He maried Mary, even though both parties were problematic about marriage. God win was very famous at the time, and wrote a great many books. There is a lot written about him. I can recommend the work of Janet Todd. I have recently finished "Death and the Maidens", Fanny's story.
Great video as always, I think her thoughts and works (the ones shown in the video as I lack the overall knowledge of her production) were not as problematic as presented, they looked pretty straightforward and consistently feminist to me.
This was great
Hi Dr Kat, adore your videos and have been a viewer/subscriber for some time but I was glad to see you speak about Wollstonecraft here as I am having to write about her for my history degree. And wow, like you I find her problematic. Makes it hard to write about her for sure.
Excuse me, can u share for us ur degree article? I want to lovely read ur article.
I love your videos, and would love to hear your thoughts on Oliver Cromwell!
I think that we are much too forgiving of people of the past for their blatant misogyny. Whatever the zeitgeist, has their not always been those making clear the folly of such ideas? And do not all people have the responsibility to at least try to be their better selves? With this in mind mysogyny is obviously, to anyone who appreciates women, a blight upon the civilised status of one's society.
But I want to know what you, Dr. Kat think of this considering you will have thought more about this.
👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿
There's a wonderful recent novel by the late Helen Dunmore called "Birdcage Walk," some of whose characters are based on Mary Wollstonecraft, Godwin, and their circle: www.theguardian.com/books/2017/mar/17/birdcage-walk-by-helen-dunmore-review
Sounds like poor Mary was born to a couple of malignant narcissists. The golden child/scapegoat scenario. Her rebelliousness and disdain for authority may have come from that.
I for one am thankful to have been born in the 20 and 21st century . I don't know if I could have been an obedient servant / wife at all.
Just wait until you are 60. You will regret it. Bet you are an obedient servant to you employer lol.
❤️🇨🇦
men are aware many times, of the possibility of vice and error on their part. "to err is human". men learn from their misakes, of which chauvinism is one. why is it difficult to accept that women can do wrong and make mistakes?
Because women have never been given the chance to make them? And when they do they are castigised much more harshly than men
How about you look at another Mary? Mary McArthur. The woman is a heroine to us Look up Chainmakers strike
So if Mary Wolstencraft could do it - despite her family background. Why couldn't every other woman?
There don't appear to have been any insurmountable barriers in her way. So why did other women falter at these barriers?
Take education. Men could be educated, if other men were prepared to pay for it and provide it.
So why did women not pay for and provide education for other women? After all men did not expect women to provide their education.
The only thing I knew about Mary Wollstonecraft was that she was the author of Frankenstein. I hadn't realized that it was actually her daughter that wrote the book. I'm not a feminist but women certainly got the short end of the stick long ago. It's good to see that some educated women were able to speak out for other women.
Except history does not bare out the short end of the stick theory.
I have been teaching Mary Wollenscraft's Vindication of Women's Right for years. I am embarrassed to admit that I never read the background. I learn new things every day.
Not sure your point about W's attitude towards women's 'weaknesses.' Feminists today are still attributing women's negative actions and emotions to men or patriarchy.
Meh.....