Personally, I stick it in... I play too many "invite" private games... I've always paid what I perceived the bet to be... (Over 20+ years, I've been on the losing end of @ least 2 similar situations..).. I know I'm an outlier (situationally) but the "reputational" harm Far exceeds the few hundred & 2,100 (2 instances that spring to mind) that those 2 hands cost... Again, I'm aware my situation is an outlier (but I'm in an area/region where ALL the biggest games are invite/Private...)..
Yes. I think having the table image of a fair player does a lot to help keep the table friendly. It also helps to keep players wanting to get into pots with you, and it keeps your perception of an angling cheat away (even if obviously you aren't). And these spots aren't going to change your winrate very much. I had something like this happen where I raised to 100 and someone called a 30 dollar bet not seeing my 100. The dealer ruled the 30 stays and he can call for 70 more. He folded. I didnt agree with that ruling so I gave the guy his 30 back after the hand was over. I'm a winning player and part of being a winning player is keeping other players happy to sit at your table.
I’ve been screwed by the dealer not hearing me go all in before and I didn’t get anything. Cost me $500. Floor person didn’t care. So no, I’m not handing over the opposite direction. Maybe that makes me a bad person like the guy who didn’t give me a dime. But that’s the way I feel.
I'm leaning towards not paying since villain prematurely showed his hand, and by doing this deprives hero of being able to make the intended decision. There is some fault in the hero not clarifying the bet size, but the fact remains the villain unintentionally angled hero into paying off a bet he didn't even make,
As Bart mentioned, if there's even a shred of doubt about the bet size, always ask "how much is it?". When villain is on the other side of the table, it's hard to be sure if there was also an under the breath all-in or if the chips pushed forward are the true bet. Asking for confirmation of the bet size from the dealer gives everyone a chance to make sure there's no confusion/ambiguity.
I am annoying when it comes to confirming bet sizes - I ask almost EVERY SINGLE TIME. Unless there's a small bet directly in front of me, I ask literally every time.
that was a gift and illegal, too. When someone jams, you either call (match full size of the opponent's stack) or muck your hand without pushing any money in the middle.
Dealer didn’t throw in all in button Dealer didn’t hear all in Villain only puts out a smaller stack, making the action very ambiguous Hero objected to the amount/there was confusion before hands were tabled. Shouldn’t be ruled an allin and a call. I agree with Bart, I’d probably give the amount I thought I was calling. That seems the most fair. Side note - This is why I’m not a fan of room rules/procedures that instruct the dealer to just say “bet” or “raise” rather than announcing the size. It slows down the game and can lead to confusing scenarios just like this.
@@henryguessed”stay on your high horse” considering the comments I’ve seen you leave on the clip is peak irony. Plus it’s not being on a high horse to point out you interpreted something incorrectly.
As a pit boss and given this exact situation I personally wouldnt let Hero retract the "call" for the amount placed over the betting line, as the hero verbally said call, it is binding and the villains hand is face up, however if the hand was still unrevealed, then I'd allow him to retract his call and fold or call the full all in amount. I feel the hand being revealed is significant in this situation.
@@CudleWudles52 which part is the wrong decision? The first part the villian didnt make it clear and obvious he was all in (dealer didnt know nor did other playes at heros end of the table and he didn't have all his chips over the betting line) so it would be unfair to force hero to put all his chips in. 2nd part if the cards were face down, once again refer to not having a clear distinct bet where the dealer and other players are aware, so he should be allowed to retract his bet and call with the entire and correct information available to him. I don't understand what you mean by that is wrong? The issue is this scenario could be opened up to a lot of angles and needs to be judged on a case by case basis on the footage, other players and the timing between the bets/call/reveal, this is how I would rule it as per heros description
@jonathon8059 "look after the tables..."? Like cleaning them, putting covers on them so they don't get full of dust and hair? Getting players food and drink orders? If something happens and a table manager sees it do they fill in the pit boss?
To be fair, I've seen plenty lot of rooms that actually instruct dealers to do this. Announce 'bet' and don't announce the size unless the player asks. I'm personally not of a fan of it for multiple reasons, but if that's what my employer tells me to do, I'm doing it.
I first went to a brick and mortar Casino/Poker room at Winstar in the early 2000's. There was a story going around that the staff told me, and I heard it separately from players. $1/2 game playing big, a river shove, a call for $500 or so, and the loser who called racks up the chips, does not put in one chip, and walks over, and cashes out, and leaves. The house could not MAKE the player pay, but they also did not have to let him ever play again.
The way I would rule that- if it wasn’t made clear it was an all in then the bet would be whatever chips were placed beyond the betting line. The chips that were called by the hero would stay too. Thats the only correct ruling.
He meant to call a small bet, not an all-in. If he had known it was all-in, would he have called? I get that he meant to call the smaller bet, but had he known it was all-in he probably wouldn't have. His decision was definitely good for his poker karma... My takeaway is, never call a bet until you know the amount -- this would force everyone to be very clear about their intentions...
I don't know about karma... villain basically got a freeroll by mumbling "all in" and not correcting the dealer (who simply announced "bet" and didn't throw out the all-in disc). If villain either announced his bet properly (whispering/mumbling is basically angling) or at least corrected the dealer in time he probably doesn't make a dime on the river. Villain shouldn't have gotten anything and this is basically a gift, not karma.
@@noex100 the point is that sometimes you give something for free in poker with the expectation that you'll get it back (plus more) in the future. Maybe the villain is a total fish and you want him to stay in the game. That's why it's both a gift and good poker karma...
@matteframe There ARE situations where that applies: you cut your opponent a break because it's a morally ambiguous situation and/or you think your opponent made a fishy mistake, and therefore you want them to keep playing. This situation definitely does not fit the bill. What SHOULD have happened was: villain announces all-in CLEARLY (or, immediately corrects the dealer to clarify that they were trying to go all-in), and hero folds. (10-9 definitely shouldn't be calling an all-in here). So villain should have gotten nothing on the river, and that's essentially what the floor ruled anyway. So if you want to donate $300 (not exactly chump change) just to keep a (possible?) fish around, be my guest... it's your money. But to me this is a pure donation.
Because that is the incorrect ruling. The ruling that hero owed nothing is the correct ruling since dealer did not properly convey the action, and there isn't even consensus on whether villain bet all in or not (although it does sound like he probably did). If villain doesn't table his hand hero has the original decision on whether to call all in or not.
As to the floor's "procedure", in my 9 years as a floor: #1: Ask the dealer what happened; if the players try to butt in, stop them and explain you are going to hear the entire line of events from the dealer first. If your dealers can't handle that, their in the wrong job. #2: I then always went with the player who's action was first to hear their explanation, trying to establish things in order. Again, if anyone else tries to butt in, you need to stop them (even if it's the dealer) and let the player clearly state their side of the story. That's just basic customer service. #3: Finally explain that you've heard the dealer's and other player's side, now it's their turn. A large majority of floor calls that I had were decided by both players just hearing and understanding what the other player misunderstood and they were able to come to an agreement where both were happy and it was within the rules. In this particular hand, there is no way he can be bound to calling the all in. The bet was made, when the dealer looked at the other player without putting the all in button out; the better should have stopped the action there, and clarified his action himself, if he was really intending to be all in.
Nearly this exact same thing happened to me at Bellagio 5/10 a few years ago, except the guy didn't show his cards. Villain pushed forward a stack of $10 chips on the river into a 1k pot, I snap called, and then he said that he had bet all in ($100 chips behind). The player next to him confirmed it, but neither the dealer nor I heard. The floor ruled that I could pull my small call back and the bet is all in and it was now my turn to act. The villain insisted that I should be forced to call, and that was the primary factor that led me to eventually fold. I did not give him the $200 or whatever it was. He was so unhappy that he argued with the floor for many minutes and eventually racked up, but I believe it was the correct floor call.
if the dealer did not hear "all in" then it is not all in. The opponent did not hear it, the dealer did not hear it, therefore it is null and void. Officially it could be considered as "talking to himself" in case he really said it. The players are responsible for their action, (make sure the dealer understands your action), so H cannot be charged for someone else's mistake.
The logic is to try to backup to the point of the dealer error and continue. That's what the floor was trying to do, but that doesn't make sense. My call would have been the dealer made a mistake, money was put out, all in was not heard, the bet was called, pay the bet, make the pot right and showdown. You can't have new action after correcting this error. I guess if the villain didn't table his hand MAYBE, but I don't think you can redo this. The dealer error (of not throwing the all in button) just has to stand.
What "dealer error" are you referring to? The guy put out a stack of chips and 3 people heard "all in" (villain + 2 neighbors) whereas 3 other people (hero, hero's neighbor, and dealer) didn't hear anything. Dealer announced "bet" and didn't put out the "all-in" disc. Therefore, villain didn't properly announce his bet (whispering/mumbling such that only your inmediate neighbor can hear you is not proper and is frankly borderline angling) and THEN failed to inform the dealer of his intended bet after the dealer clearly indicated a bet that was NOT all in. This is 100% villain's fault. And I do mean 100%.
@@noex100 IF the man said all in and the dealer didn't hear it and throw the card it could been seen as an error. I don't have reason to disbelieve players not in the hand.
@Dexerion If a player says "all in" so softly that neither the dealer nor players a couple seats away could hear it, it's as if they never said anything at all. It's the player's responsibility to verbalize their action when necessary- whispering or mumbling is NOT verbalizing.
@Dexerion Dude, the dealer didn't "miss" anything... villain said "all in" so quietly that only his direct neighbors heard him, whereas the dealer and 2 players on the other end of the table could NOT hear it. Of course I agree that he said the words "all in", but if you say them that quietly you have failed to verbalize your action (or, at best, the player needs to immediately correct/clarify their verbal statement). For that reason, the bet should have been what he put out ($300). It should have been as if he didn't say anything.
Once the floor rescind the CO's action on river, the CO CANNOT push $300 anymore. That's illegal. (officially, SB shove in power). If he does that, then it is automatically considered a call and he has to surrender all chips that matches the SB stack size. . If CO wants to fold, and still feels to give those 300 chips to SB, he can't do it as it is also illegal (voluntarily giving your chips away to some other seats).
As played, if I were hero I would pay the amount that was pushed across the betting line. The Floor is wrong in my opinion. It is not enough to simply say, "All in" while pushing chips across the betting line, this is especially true when you are pushing enough chips that it would be a legitimate bet size. Toss one chip in, and say all in, it is much clearer that it is an all in. But, when you take an action, it is important that you ensure that the dealer hears the action and that foe understands the action, and that the floor enforce this, otherwise you open the room up to angle shooting. If there is an All In marker, and you say all in, you need to ensure that marker is put in front of you. When I'm all in, it's either a single chip, or I move the entire stack.
What happens if the guy mucked his hand and started pushing all his chips your way. That's really the answer, which only the hero knows. Would he have taken the money, or explained he was only calling the 300 and only except the 300?
Floor person was probably upset the caller called the the $300, they were probably hoping the wheel was going to get greased for the favorable ruling lol
What should of happened was, he thought it was a bet and said I call, but when the guy said that he called all in and the floor ruled that way, then his calling the bet is now void,he owes nothing.
I rewatched the 2005 Main Event... and there was a hand with Raymer in it deeper in the tourney, where Raymer check-raised a guy and the guy took out his earphones and said "All-in?" He said it definitely in a question, but that is a very very slippery thing to say at a poker table. What if Raymer immediately said "Call!" And the guy says "no I was asking" then wow! I asked a dealer at the poker room and he said "we are taught that words are binding, we aren't suppose to hear anything else" Although we all say look at the dealer and say "is that a raise? Or "raise?"" Most people understand... I've always wondered about weird phrases like "I banana raise" etc...
I was in poker room and floor was called and he made the right call, The next night floor was called again for the same thing and she made the wrong call. I wasn't in pot so I didn't say much.
I've copped the bad end enough that I'll take the good end whenever permitted and I would only expect that from everyone else too. To do otherwise would put me at a competitive disadvantage.
It's kind of crazy the floor made not one, but two bad rulings. You might think they'd get to the right one, if just by accident. But caller is right to fear the poker gods.
Plot twist: Villain reveals bluff. Hero would have called 325 but not all in. What should hero do now? I think he should take his 325 back but floor in this case apparently won't allow that option.
Villains fault for tabling his hand prematurely when the floor was on the way... I'm not putting another chip in the pot and voluntarily losing another dollar, much less $275-$325. I have the option to muck my hand and not call a portion of the river bet on a hand that I know I'm losing? Floor gives me a clean out... I'm taking it. I'll take the BLESSING given to me... and maybe next time that guy won't table his hand when the dealer halts action and calls the floor.
Should have been the $275 call. This is the dealer's fault.....not maliciously or from being incompetent, but from not hearing the 'all in'. 2 other players heard it, so I am sure that it happened. But when the dealer says 'bet' and the hero sees 275 pushed forward, that is a bet of 275, not an all in as far as the hero is concerned. The hero should have been on the hook for 275 (or 300 as it turned out, but he thought 275 until the end)......imo
I don't remember where, but a long time ago, I played somewhere where every player was given an "all in" marker to toss in if they went all in. It probably became too much trouble trying to keep them in the casino, but otherwise - problem solved!
All the bets have to be clear and concise. A good floor call is whatever the villain put in initially was the bet. That is the only clear and concise bet you can deduce. Also, players responsibility to know what the bets are.
The 1 chip is only for calling an all-in, not going all in... And what if you have 5+ stacks?? Are you supposed to physically shove 5 or more stacks across the line??? Kinda silly
For the sake of time. If you understand it's an all-in, you can ask how much is behind on it and decide from there. No need to make them push it all forward, then take it all back if they win the pot.
I played in Kansas City and St.Louis in 2006-2007 and they used the line on the table as the official rule for bets... there was no forward motion, there was no this or that... to be official it was what went over the line... if you had a stack in your hand and it went over, that was the bet... I always liked this rule, it was very simple and easy... In 2003-2007 we seen tons of newbies at different rooms across the country and there was always confusion... many people played online but had no clue the betting rules in brick and motars... especially since almost every room had different procedures...
Makes no sense that he would volunteer to pay the $300. The guy didn't bet $300 so it doesn't matter that you thought he did. Think of it this way, let's say the guy bet $300 but you thought he said all in. You call and then find out it was only $300. Are you going to give him the full all in amount? No, of course not. Because that would be rewarding the other guy for a move he never made. Just like that $300 bet was a move he didn't make. He would have gotten paid off legit had he made that move since that amount appealed to you. He bet all in though which most likely wouldn't have gotten him paid off... so, why would it make sense to pay him off the $300?
This is a hundred percent an angle. I wouldn’t give the guy anything. He’d throw in one chip or push all his chips in. I have seen this before, this is never an accident.
The hero should not owe any more money than the number of chips that were put out. If the villain didn't make it clear what the bet was, that's on the villain.
I would have never given up the $300. If you play long enough it all evens out with dealer error or floor rulings. Never give money away as literal gift, for sympathy. That's the other guys fault for not clarifying the bet. Don't ever expect the other guy to the same in reverse. Its dog eat dog at poker table especially at best bet Jax.
Jax best Bet has the most idiotic people on the floor. Been playing there for years and they always come over hostile and make a stupid ruling. It’s hilarious
This whole table is sloppy. This is very bad dealing. As the dealer, you run the game. I have dealt everything from free poker to 10k events. Free poker taught me how to handle 6 way all ins, 😂.
As played, I'm sticking in the $300. If he hadn't shown his hand, however, I would propose to the villain that I add the $300 and make the pot right and then we show and whoever has the best hand wins. If he refuses to do that then I would fold and keep my $300. By doing this, if he's bluffing and/or possibly angling me, my $300 is protected, but if he has a value hand then the pot goes to the proper party. To prevent stuff like this, and insure all players understand when I'm moving all in, I use the hand motion for "all in." I put the sides of my hands together with palms facing out, and make several pushing motions. I do this when I have too many chips to push all the way in and I don't want my opponent to get a read if I'm shaking or something. I will also do this to announce "raise." I make a thumbs up signal and then move my hand up several times. I was told by a floor man once that these are signals used by deaf players, and they are binding even tho no verbalizations are made.
@@user-wx1vf1rn6n You can consider it against many people but it's not as clear a decision. The fact that you bet the turn in itself doesn't necessarily say you have a nine, you could be trying to get value with an overpair or protecting a jack. It's only on the river that you have clearly said to them that you have a 9, and it's the fact that they're still betting even though you're telling them you most likely have a 9 that is quite concerning at these stakes.
In a lot rooms they instruct the dealers to NOT tell the players how much the bet is until asked. But dealers routinely ignore this to keep the game moving.
If the dealer calls the floor, stop. Stop pushing chips in. Keep your cards face-down. You're just making things worse. Seen it in a tournament recently and it could have ended terribly. We're at the final table of a tournament. The top 6 are in the money. Nine-handed to start. Action folded around to SB in Seat 7, who called and left BB in Seat 8 with the option. BB took longer than usual to decide what to do. The dealer ran out the flop, thinking BB checked. BB speaks up to say he didn't make his move. Dealer calls the floor. While the floor is ACTIVELY DISCUSSING WHAT TO DO, BB raises and SB calls. Then, they rule the dealer needs to pull back the burn card and the flop, shuffle the remaining deck, and rerun the flop. SB and BB were locked into the actions they took in the interim. BB was now upset since that flop had an Ace he was counting on being there. That Ace showed up again on the turn. SB ended up winning that hand and put BB under 10 BBs left. Dude was stewing something fierce for a couple of orbits after that, though managed to hang on and cash.
Then hire English speaking people to work IN THE US. Don’t compromise the integrity of the game to justify hiring people can’t speak English- that’s dumb Bart.. sorry
Depends on the attitude of the other to be honest. Take your money back, sit back say nothing for a while. If he acts as some obnoxious dickbag, don't give him the money, if he is all goods and be like oh well, both our faults etc.. then sure give him the 300.
Are you sticking in the $300? Why or why not?
Personally, I stick it in...
I play too many "invite" private games... I've always paid what I perceived the bet to be... (Over 20+ years, I've been on the losing end of @ least 2 similar situations..)..
I know I'm an outlier (situationally) but the "reputational" harm Far exceeds the few hundred & 2,100 (2 instances that spring to mind) that those 2 hands cost... Again, I'm aware my situation is an outlier (but I'm in an area/region where ALL the biggest games are invite/Private...)..
Yes.
I think having the table image of a fair player does a lot to help keep the table friendly. It also helps to keep players wanting to get into pots with you, and it keeps your perception of an angling cheat away (even if obviously you aren't). And these spots aren't going to change your winrate very much.
I had something like this happen where I raised to 100 and someone called a 30 dollar bet not seeing my 100. The dealer ruled the 30 stays and he can call for 70 more. He folded. I didnt agree with that ruling so I gave the guy his 30 back after the hand was over. I'm a winning player and part of being a winning player is keeping other players happy to sit at your table.
Nope 🤣
I’ve been screwed by the dealer not hearing me go all in before and I didn’t get anything. Cost me $500. Floor person didn’t care. So no, I’m not handing over the opposite direction. Maybe that makes me a bad person like the guy who didn’t give me a dime. But that’s the way I feel.
I'm leaning towards not paying since villain prematurely showed his hand, and by doing this deprives hero of being able to make the intended decision. There is some fault in the hero not clarifying the bet size, but the fact remains the villain unintentionally angled hero into paying off a bet he didn't even make,
As Bart mentioned, if there's even a shred of doubt about the bet size, always ask "how much is it?". When villain is on the other side of the table, it's hard to be sure if there was also an under the breath all-in or if the chips pushed forward are the true bet. Asking for confirmation of the bet size from the dealer gives everyone a chance to make sure there's no confusion/ambiguity.
I always get it in writing
I am annoying when it comes to confirming bet sizes - I ask almost EVERY SINGLE TIME. Unless there's a small bet directly in front of me, I ask literally every time.
under the breath doesnt cut it if the dealer didnt hear it AND not announce it AND put the ALL-IN marker in front of the player. its simple logic.
What a gentleman move by this guy I’m shocked he gave the villain the 300
that was a gift and illegal, too. When someone jams, you either call (match full size of the opponent's stack) or muck your hand without pushing any money in the middle.
@@pot_kivach160it's not illegal to gift money lol what. It's after the hand is over.
Dealer didn’t throw in all in button
Dealer didn’t hear all in
Villain only puts out a smaller stack, making the action very ambiguous
Hero objected to the amount/there was confusion before hands were tabled.
Shouldn’t be ruled an allin and a call. I agree with Bart, I’d probably give the amount I thought I was calling. That seems the most fair.
Side note - This is why I’m not a fan of room rules/procedures that instruct the dealer to just say “bet” or “raise” rather than announcing the size. It slows down the game and can lead to confusing scenarios just like this.
Player responsibility to know amount or ask for a count.
We're not here to do your job.
If player verbalized an amount I will announce, otherwise no.
@@henryguessed At no point did I insist the dealer made a mistake or said anything that conflicts your comment.
Go off though
@Kanders190 Must have misread your side note along with opening statement.
Stay on your high horse.
@@henryguessed”stay on your high horse” considering the comments I’ve seen you leave on the clip is peak irony.
Plus it’s not being on a high horse to point out you interpreted something incorrectly.
@@Kanders190 oh brother. You walk around blaming dealer, floor person, etc.
Must be euro prick.
As a pit boss and given this exact situation I personally wouldnt let Hero retract the "call" for the amount placed over the betting line, as the hero verbally said call, it is binding and the villains hand is face up, however if the hand was still unrevealed, then I'd allow him to retract his call and fold or call the full all in amount. I feel the hand being revealed is significant in this situation.
Pit bosses in poker?
Thought term was floor person?
That's the wrong decision and it isn't an opinion. You don't have any discretion in this situation.
@@CudleWudles52 which part is the wrong decision? The first part the villian didnt make it clear and obvious he was all in (dealer didnt know nor did other playes at heros end of the table and he didn't have all his chips over the betting line) so it would be unfair to force hero to put all his chips in.
2nd part if the cards were face down, once again refer to not having a clear distinct bet where the dealer and other players are aware, so he should be allowed to retract his bet and call with the entire and correct information available to him. I don't understand what you mean by that is wrong? The issue is this scenario could be opened up to a lot of angles and needs to be judged on a case by case basis on the footage, other players and the timing between the bets/call/reveal, this is how I would rule it as per heros description
@@henryguessed we have floor managers who look after the tables and pit bosses who run the floor, a decision like this would go to a pit boss
@jonathon8059 "look after the tables..."? Like cleaning them, putting covers on them so they don't get full of dust and hair? Getting players food and drink orders? If something happens and a table manager sees it do they fill in the pit boss?
in a NL game.... BET isn't the correct thing to say by a dealer.... it's not limit... bad dealer
If the player is all in, bet is definitely not the correct nomenclature
I say bet, and then the amount. Sometimes I say, "bet, all in."
To be fair, I've seen plenty lot of rooms that actually instruct dealers to do this. Announce 'bet' and don't announce the size unless the player asks. I'm personally not of a fan of it for multiple reasons, but if that's what my employer tells me to do, I'm doing it.
I'm guessing you haven't actually played in many poker rooms... and you definitely haven't played many tournaments either.
Actually it is.
Player responsibility to know the amount if player did not announce or dealer counts it down when asked.
I first went to a brick and mortar Casino/Poker room at Winstar in the early 2000's. There was a story going around that the staff told me, and I heard it separately from players. $1/2 game playing big, a river shove, a call for $500 or so, and the loser who called racks up the chips, does not put in one chip, and walks over, and cashes out, and leaves.
The house could not MAKE the player pay, but they also did not have to let him ever play again.
The way I would rule that- if it wasn’t made clear it was an all in then the bet would be whatever chips were placed beyond the betting line. The chips that were called by the hero would stay too. Thats the only correct ruling.
He meant to call a small bet, not an all-in. If he had known it was all-in, would he have called? I get that he meant to call the smaller bet, but had he known it was all-in he probably wouldn't have. His decision was definitely good for his poker karma...
My takeaway is, never call a bet until you know the amount -- this would force everyone to be very clear about their intentions...
I don't know about karma... villain basically got a freeroll by mumbling "all in" and not correcting the dealer (who simply announced "bet" and didn't throw out the all-in disc).
If villain either announced his bet properly (whispering/mumbling is basically angling) or at least corrected the dealer in time he probably doesn't make a dime on the river. Villain shouldn't have gotten anything and this is basically a gift, not karma.
@@noex100 the point is that sometimes you give something for free in poker with the expectation that you'll get it back (plus more) in the future. Maybe the villain is a total fish and you want him to stay in the game. That's why it's both a gift and good poker karma...
@matteframe There ARE situations where that applies: you cut your opponent a break because it's a morally ambiguous situation and/or you think your opponent made a fishy mistake, and therefore you want them to keep playing.
This situation definitely does not fit the bill. What SHOULD have happened was: villain announces all-in CLEARLY (or, immediately corrects the dealer to clarify that they were trying to go all-in), and hero folds. (10-9 definitely shouldn't be calling an all-in here). So villain should have gotten nothing on the river, and that's essentially what the floor ruled anyway. So if you want to donate $300 (not exactly chump change) just to keep a (possible?) fish around, be my guest... it's your money. But to me this is a pure donation.
Why can't these floor people just use logic??? Dude should owe 275-325. Simple as that
Because that is the incorrect ruling. The ruling that hero owed nothing is the correct ruling since dealer did not properly convey the action, and there isn't even consensus on whether villain bet all in or not (although it does sound like he probably did). If villain doesn't table his hand hero has the original decision on whether to call all in or not.
Why would he owe anything?? He called 275 not all in. This changes things. Dealer fault so the options are call all in or muck no cost.
As to the floor's "procedure", in my 9 years as a floor:
#1: Ask the dealer what happened; if the players try to butt in, stop them and explain you are going to hear the entire line of events from the dealer first. If your dealers can't handle that, their in the wrong job.
#2: I then always went with the player who's action was first to hear their explanation, trying to establish things in order. Again, if anyone else tries to butt in, you need to stop them (even if it's the dealer) and let the player clearly state their side of the story. That's just basic customer service.
#3: Finally explain that you've heard the dealer's and other player's side, now it's their turn.
A large majority of floor calls that I had were decided by both players just hearing and understanding what the other player misunderstood and they were able to come to an agreement where both were happy and it was within the rules.
In this particular hand, there is no way he can be bound to calling the all in. The bet was made, when the dealer looked at the other player without putting the all in button out; the better should have stopped the action there, and clarified his action himself, if he was really intending to be all in.
Nearly this exact same thing happened to me at Bellagio 5/10 a few years ago, except the guy didn't show his cards.
Villain pushed forward a stack of $10 chips on the river into a 1k pot, I snap called, and then he said that he had bet all in ($100 chips behind). The player next to him confirmed it, but neither the dealer nor I heard.
The floor ruled that I could pull my small call back and the bet is all in and it was now my turn to act.
The villain insisted that I should be forced to call, and that was the primary factor that led me to eventually fold. I did not give him the $200 or whatever it was. He was so unhappy that he argued with the floor for many minutes and eventually racked up, but I believe it was the correct floor call.
You a bad person. Give him his $100
@mrhumble2937
Pay that myan his money?
@@mrhumble2937 this hand is different. Villain never tabled a winning hand. Are you paying someone $200 just because they say so?
@@The20thHijackeri guess this is my sign to re-watch Rounders again. 😂
if the dealer did not hear "all in" then it is not all in. The opponent did not hear it, the dealer did not hear it, therefore it is null and void. Officially it could be considered as "talking to himself" in case he really said it. The players are responsible for their action, (make sure the dealer understands your action), so H cannot be charged for someone else's mistake.
The logic is to try to backup to the point of the dealer error and continue. That's what the floor was trying to do, but that doesn't make sense. My call would have been the dealer made a mistake, money was put out, all in was not heard, the bet was called, pay the bet, make the pot right and showdown. You can't have new action after correcting this error. I guess if the villain didn't table his hand MAYBE, but I don't think you can redo this. The dealer error (of not throwing the all in button) just has to stand.
What "dealer error" are you referring to? The guy put out a stack of chips and 3 people heard "all in" (villain + 2 neighbors) whereas 3 other people (hero, hero's neighbor, and dealer) didn't hear anything. Dealer announced "bet" and didn't put out the "all-in" disc. Therefore, villain didn't properly announce his bet (whispering/mumbling such that only your inmediate neighbor can hear you is not proper and is frankly borderline angling) and THEN failed to inform the dealer of his intended bet after the dealer clearly indicated a bet that was NOT all in.
This is 100% villain's fault. And I do mean 100%.
@@noex100 IF the man said all in and the dealer didn't hear it and throw the card it could been seen as an error. I don't have reason to disbelieve players not in the hand.
@Dexerion If a player says "all in" so softly that neither the dealer nor players a couple seats away could hear it, it's as if they never said anything at all. It's the player's responsibility to verbalize their action when necessary- whispering or mumbling is NOT verbalizing.
@@noex100 2 other players heard it. Its not up for debate if he said it or not. The dealer missed it.
@Dexerion Dude, the dealer didn't "miss" anything... villain said "all in" so quietly that only his direct neighbors heard him, whereas the dealer and 2 players on the other end of the table could NOT hear it. Of course I agree that he said the words "all in", but if you say them that quietly you have failed to verbalize your action (or, at best, the player needs to immediately correct/clarify their verbal statement). For that reason, the bet should have been what he put out ($300). It should have been as if he didn't say anything.
Once the floor rescind the CO's action on river, the CO CANNOT push $300 anymore. That's illegal. (officially, SB shove in power). If he does that, then it is automatically considered a call and he has to surrender all chips that matches the SB stack size.
.
If CO wants to fold, and still feels to give those 300 chips to SB, he can't do it as it is also illegal (voluntarily giving your chips away to some other seats).
9:10 haha I wasn't expecting this twist
Once again. Bart with the correct take. Was that you @crushlivepoker checking out the action late levels in Paris lazt night?
As played, if I were hero I would pay the amount that was pushed across the betting line.
The Floor is wrong in my opinion. It is not enough to simply say, "All in" while pushing chips across the betting line, this is especially true when you are pushing enough chips that it would be a legitimate bet size. Toss one chip in, and say all in, it is much clearer that it is an all in.
But, when you take an action, it is important that you ensure that the dealer hears the action and that foe understands the action, and that the floor enforce this, otherwise you open the room up to angle shooting.
If there is an All In marker, and you say all in, you need to ensure that marker is put in front of you. When I'm all in, it's either a single chip, or I move the entire stack.
I don't play much, but this is 100% the way I always perceive the rules to be.
What happens if the guy mucked his hand and started pushing all his chips your way. That's really the answer, which only the hero knows. Would he have taken the money, or explained he was only calling the 300 and only except the 300?
Confirm the bet size and avoid all issues. If players actively protected their action, these rulings would not occur😊
You are a scholar and a gentleman, dear Caller. Well done.
Seems like it should have just been ruled a bet and call. The player didn't use the all in chip or communicate to the dealer that he was all in.
The betting player had a duty to correct the action as conveyed by the dealer as soon as possible.
You have to remember: everything you do at the table conveys information
This. This is the only correct answer.
Floor person was probably upset the caller called the the $300, they were probably hoping the wheel was going to get greased for the favorable ruling lol
Really respectable move from the caller. Proper.
What should of happened was, he thought it was a bet and said I call, but when the guy said that he called all in and the floor ruled that way, then his calling the bet is now void,he owes nothing.
I rewatched the 2005 Main Event... and there was a hand with Raymer in it deeper in the tourney, where Raymer check-raised a guy and the guy took out his earphones and said "All-in?" He said it definitely in a question, but that is a very very slippery thing to say at a poker table. What if Raymer immediately said "Call!" And the guy says "no I was asking" then wow! I asked a dealer at the poker room and he said "we are taught that words are binding, we aren't suppose to hear anything else" Although we all say look at the dealer and say "is that a raise? Or "raise?"" Most people understand... I've always wondered about weird phrases like "I banana raise" etc...
This is why I always ask the full question “Is that a raise?”
" If you're gonna shoot, shoot. Don't talk."
I was in poker room and floor was called and he made the right call, The next night floor was called again for the same thing and she made the wrong call. I wasn't in pot so I didn't say much.
I've copped the bad end enough that I'll take the good end whenever permitted and I would only expect that from everyone else too. To do otherwise would put me at a competitive disadvantage.
Caller did exactly what I was thinking should have been done. The floor had a tough call to make but the player made it right.
I see this all the time. I think each player should have an all in button to make an all in bet
I agree with Bart, i would have paid what I thought the bet was but not the all in
It's kind of crazy the floor made not one, but two bad rulings.
You might think they'd get to the right one, if just by accident.
But caller is right to fear the poker gods.
Now he knows when he says "One time", the poker gods will listen.
Plot twist: Villain reveals bluff. Hero would have called 325 but not all in. What should hero do now? I think he should take his 325 back but floor in this case apparently won't allow that option.
Villains fault for tabling his hand prematurely when the floor was on the way... I'm not putting another chip in the pot and voluntarily losing another dollar, much less $275-$325. I have the option to muck my hand and not call a portion of the river bet on a hand that I know I'm losing? Floor gives me a clean out... I'm taking it. I'll take the BLESSING given to me... and maybe next time that guy won't table his hand when the dealer halts action and calls the floor.
Should have been the $275 call. This is the dealer's fault.....not maliciously or from being incompetent, but from not hearing the 'all in'. 2 other players heard it, so I am sure that it happened. But when the dealer says 'bet' and the hero sees 275 pushed forward, that is a bet of 275, not an all in as far as the hero is concerned. The hero should have been on the hook for 275 (or 300 as it turned out, but he thought 275 until the end)......imo
Either it's ruled an all in and Hero gets his call back, or Villain and Hero's actions stand.
I’m curious, why is best bet one of the best 2/5 games in the world?
I don't remember where, but a long time ago, I played somewhere where every player was given an "all in" marker to toss in if they went all in. It probably became too much trouble trying to keep them in the casino, but otherwise - problem solved!
All the bets have to be clear and concise.
A good floor call is whatever the villain put in initially was the bet.
That is the only clear and concise bet you can deduce.
Also, players responsibility to know what the bets are.
Why don’t casinos just make it a rule that if you’re all in u HAVE TO PUSH ALL your chips across the line. The one chip to X chips all in is crazy
Well leaving one chip or X amount of chips behind isn't actually all in lmao so that doesn't make sense. If you want everything just raise them all in
The 1 chip is only for calling an all-in, not going all in... And what if you have 5+ stacks?? Are you supposed to physically shove 5 or more stacks across the line??? Kinda silly
For the sake of time. If you understand it's an all-in, you can ask how much is behind on it and decide from there. No need to make them push it all forward, then take it all back if they win the pot.
I played in Kansas City and St.Louis in 2006-2007 and they used the line on the table as the official rule for bets... there was no forward motion, there was no this or that... to be official it was what went over the line... if you had a stack in your hand and it went over, that was the bet... I always liked this rule, it was very simple and easy... In 2003-2007 we seen tons of newbies at different rooms across the country and there was always confusion... many people played online but had no clue the betting rules in brick and motars... especially since almost every room had different procedures...
Or just verbalise all in with no doubt
Oh the $275 would definitely be stuck if the all in was handled accurately
Poker gods are pleased. Hero conducted himself well.
Makes no sense that he would volunteer to pay the $300. The guy didn't bet $300 so it doesn't matter that you thought he did. Think of it this way, let's say the guy bet $300 but you thought he said all in. You call and then find out it was only $300. Are you going to give him the full all in amount? No, of course not. Because that would be rewarding the other guy for a move he never made. Just like that $300 bet was a move he didn't make. He would have gotten paid off legit had he made that move since that amount appealed to you. He bet all in though which most likely wouldn't have gotten him paid off... so, why would it make sense to pay him off the $300?
Caller needs to get into the habit of asking how much the bet is. Just ask the dealer "how much is it to call?".
This is a hundred percent an angle. I wouldn’t give the guy anything. He’d throw in one chip or push all his chips in. I have seen this before, this is never an accident.
is this Kyle Fischl?
All In buttons are in use. No All In button no All In.
Bart says no hope for clarity via dealers, but are there no cameras
This is a very tough spot for the floor.
If the dealer doesn’t know it was an all in then it didn’t happen
Should have always asked for a count. I never call without knowing the exact amount.
The hero should not owe any more money than the number of chips that were put out. If the villain didn't make it clear what the bet was, that's on the villain.
I would have never given up the $300. If you play long enough it all evens out with dealer error or floor rulings. Never give money away as literal gift, for sympathy. That's the other guys fault for not clarifying the bet. Don't ever expect the other guy to the same in reverse. Its dog eat dog at poker table especially at best bet Jax.
Jax best Bet has the most idiotic people on the floor. Been playing there for years and they always come over hostile and make a stupid ruling. It’s hilarious
No, no, no. It is as the dealer perceives the situation that counts.
If your intent is to call and not raise, then asking the amount will never ever hurt you lol just do it.
So the dude caught a break really. He didn’t have to call the $300ish…
Sounds fair,but yes,always say how much.
poker can be a cruel game
This whole table is sloppy. This is very bad dealing. As the dealer, you run the game. I have dealt everything from free poker to 10k events. Free poker taught me how to handle 6 way all ins, 😂.
The question I want answered: if you heard all-in, would you pay?
floor made the right call... other player is bad
Im curious if you would have taken all his money if he mucked and he started giving you all his chips.
Cornell. You’re the
The poker gods are proud of you.
Absurd
Bart/Mike G 2024
Pay the greens, that's it....
Bart, how can you say he should never "have the 275 stuck? He said call to a bet he perceived to be 275...
Imo, the floor made two rulings and neither were right 😂
As played, I'm sticking in the $300. If he hadn't shown his hand, however, I would propose to the villain that I add the $300 and make the pot right and then we show and whoever has the best hand wins. If he refuses to do that then I would fold and keep my $300. By doing this, if he's bluffing and/or possibly angling me, my $300 is protected, but if he has a value hand then the pot goes to the proper party. To prevent stuff like this, and insure all players understand when I'm moving all in, I use the hand motion for "all in." I put the sides of my hands together with palms facing out, and make several pushing motions. I do this when I have too many chips to push all the way in and I don't want my opponent to get a read if I'm shaking or something. I will also do this to announce "raise." I make a thumbs up signal and then move my hand up several times. I was told by a floor man once that these are signals used by deaf players, and they are binding even tho no verbalizations are made.
Not super relevant but very easy fold on the river even for 300
Why not fold turn then?
@@user-wx1vf1rn6n You can consider it against many people but it's not as clear a decision. The fact that you bet the turn in itself doesn't necessarily say you have a nine, you could be trying to get value with an overpair or protecting a jack. It's only on the river that you have clearly said to them that you have a 9, and it's the fact that they're still betting even though you're telling them you most likely have a 9 that is quite concerning at these stakes.
@@user-wx1vf1rn6n The queen is also not the best river, it gives showdown value to a lot of natural bluffs. I would probably call an A river.
why didn't the dealer count the river bet and announce the bet size to the caller.... this is a dealer mistake...
also the callers fault for not just asking... how much?
In a lot rooms they instruct the dealers to NOT tell the players how much the bet is until asked. But dealers routinely ignore this to keep the game moving.
If the dealer calls the floor, stop. Stop pushing chips in. Keep your cards face-down. You're just making things worse. Seen it in a tournament recently and it could have ended terribly.
We're at the final table of a tournament. The top 6 are in the money. Nine-handed to start. Action folded around to SB in Seat 7, who called and left BB in Seat 8 with the option. BB took longer than usual to decide what to do. The dealer ran out the flop, thinking BB checked. BB speaks up to say he didn't make his move. Dealer calls the floor. While the floor is ACTIVELY DISCUSSING WHAT TO DO, BB raises and SB calls. Then, they rule the dealer needs to pull back the burn card and the flop, shuffle the remaining deck, and rerun the flop. SB and BB were locked into the actions they took in the interim. BB was now upset since that flop had an Ace he was counting on being there. That Ace showed up again on the turn. SB ended up winning that hand and put BB under 10 BBs left. Dude was stewing something fierce for a couple of orbits after that, though managed to hang on and cash.
Did you say 70% of the floors can't speak proper English? What??
Dealers in CA!
@@skelthouser2730thanks!!
Then hire English speaking people to work IN THE US. Don’t compromise the integrity of the game to justify hiring people can’t speak English- that’s dumb Bart.. sorry
Depends on the attitude of the other to be honest. Take your money back, sit back say nothing for a while. If he acts as some obnoxious dickbag, don't give him the money, if he is all goods and be like oh well, both our faults etc.. then sure give him the 300.