PHOTONIS Echo WHITE PHOSPHOR PVS-14
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- Опубликовано: 17 мар 2019
- I would highly recommend the Photonis Echo white phosphor to someone looking for WP in the same or lower price range as a Elbit XLSH or SLH tube who isn't concerned about performance in extreme low light. If you want the all around best performance in that price range or slightly more, then I'd recommend a device with a gen 3 Elbit or L3Harris thin filmed image tube.
The tube is ZW0973A. Full specs from the Photonis sheet:
FOM: 2078
Max output brightness: 5.2
Luminance gain: 9379
Center resolution: 67
EBI: .20
SNR: 31.01
Input current: 23.5
Image alignment: 0.13
Halo: 0.64
Useful cathode diameter: 17.7
PVS-14 from www.JRHEnterprises.com
This is not a sponsored or paid video. This is my personal device.
I just ordered a photonis echo and this video made me super comfortable with my choice.
Thank you taking the time to make this video. It was definitely helpful when making a decision to go from Gen 3 GP
The first video was missing a segment at the beginning. Sorry and thanks for watching
Would love to see a video of you using a Dbal or some other IR laser with this. I know it's not going to be as good as a "true" Gen 3 unit, but I imagine for just hobby shooting at night it's got to still be useable for that.
Unfortunately I no longer have the Echo
I recently bought the Armasight Nyx-7 in white phosphor. Love it.
Awesome Ethan! Now you got thermal and night vision. Nice!
NITEWALKER Yesss! You remember me! Hahahaha Thanks for posting the vid.
Of course I do and you're welcome!
Please remember also guys that the Echo tubes might fall just the wrong side the line to qualify for top spec 4G tube in one area only. Also, there's a sizeable variation across the Echo tubes. It depends where they fail against the 4G criteria and by how much. So, it's crucial to check the specs sent with the tubes by the manufacturer. I don't know if Nitewalker did this and if he's testing a 'top end' Echo tube or an 'also-ran' - which is pretty important when he's making comparisons and telling us Echo is better or worse than this or that. If you pick carefully in the key areas such as gain, SN and IA, you can get an Echo that is so close to a top 4G tube, that very few could tell the difference in the real word.
I am very spec minded. I listed the FOM specs in the video description. I also added the full specs of the Echo used in this video in the description and they are at the end of my reply for you to read also. This is a good Echo. I've seen several Echo data records and they are all close to this tube. I haven't seen a recent 4G record but I have seen Intens and the only significant difference was the luminance gain. The Echos were mostly in the 9k range with a 10,000 max whereas the Intens was 11k range with a 14,000 max. Otherwise, the rest of the specs were nearly identical.
Regarding how good the Echos are in general, it depends on where you live in the world. There are two grades of Echos sold outside the USA (Echo and Echo+) and two grades of 4G sold outside the USA (4G and 4G+).
The CEO of Photonis Defense went on a web forum (Snipers Hide) and publicly confirmed that the Echos and 4G sold in the USA are both the + models sold outside the USA.
The minimum specifications listed on the Photonis Defense website for the Echo spec tube is 1600 FOM - 57 center resolution and 23 signal to noise ratio. Although the actual specs I've seen are higher, according to their website, it is possible to receive an Echo with fairly low specs.
Interestingly, the Echo minimum specifications listed on the Photonis Defense website differ from the minimum specs listed on the USA Echo data records aka spec sheets. I have seen several data records spanning from 2018-2020 and they all have the same minimum specifications. Here are the actual specs of the tube in this video and the listed minimum specs shown on the data record.
Tube type ZW0973
FOM: Minimum 1800. Actual 2078
Max output brightness: Min: 3.0. Actual 5.2
Luminance gain: Min: 7000. Actual: 9379
Center resolution: Min: 62. Actual: 67
EBI: Max: 0.50. Actual 0.20
SNR: Min: 26.50. Actual: 31.01
Input current: Max: 35.0. Actual: 23.5
Image alignment: Max: 0.30. Actual: 0.13
Halo: Max: 0.95. Actual: 0.64
Useful cathode diameter: Min: 17.5. Actual 17.7
And to follow up to my reply, a higher luminance gain nearing the maximum gain listed on the Intens data record I've seen (14,000) would certainly be a better tube in low light than what the Echos I've seen average (9k) or an Echo at max spec (10,000).
It's no secret that Photonis tubes yield a much lower luminance gain or photocathode sensitivity (they don't even list it) than the yields capable with modern USA gen 3.
I'm not saying Photonis tubes are bad tubes. They are excellent tubes. However, if you want the best performance in low light conditions, then the better choice is a USA gen 3 tube with high specs and unfilmed gen 3 with high specs offers the highest low light performance.
@@NITEWALKER-NIGHTVISION Many thanks - I appreciate the reply, info and your videos. All very useful. Yes, it seems you have look more carefully in Europe to get a good Echo - perhaps because they are competing against better and cost-effective gen 3 in the US - which are much harder to get here and a lot more expensive. The best I could do in getting my Echo was FOM 1750, gain at 10k, SN 27.5 and good IA at 0.08, and that took some finding. Overall not bad for my uses and the white is great in anything from quarter moon upwards or with IR. You're very fortunate having access to good gen 3 tubes with the figures you quote in a more competitive market. Thanks again.
@@mossybanks2719 The funny part is in the USA they (Photonis Defense) are trying to upsell the 4G tubes and because they’ve been selling Echos with high specs, the performance jump from Echo to 4G is not as large in the USA as elsewhere.
Hey man thanks alot for your videos, they're awesome.
What do you think of photonis basic tubes? Would those be worth getting for a beginner? WP tubes are around 1k each where as the echo tubes are around 1.8k each. Thanks man!
Those tubes would be a good starter for a low price WP. If you’re not opposed to GP, you can find decent used gen 3 thin filmed GP tubes in the middle of those two prices.
Does anyone have any experience or knowledge on how much benefit one would see going from a standard photonis echo tube to the echo elite/plus?
I've been looking at this, the L3 thin-filmed, and AGM's PVS14 3AL1 (green phosphor). The 3AL1 specs says it is GEN 3 but rated 'LEVEL 1' making it have a clearer image. It is a bit more costly than the Photonis Echo and the L3 however it is green instead of white. Is it worth the tradeoff? Which do you think I should get?
Personally, I'm not a fan of how AGM lists their night vision. It's confusing as to what you're actually buying. You should know what tube model you're paying for (1701, 18UM, etc.) and what all of the minimum guaranteed specs are, or if they have the tubes on hand, what the actual specs are.
From what I've seen, the only spec they list is the resolution specification of 64-72 lp/mm which is STANDARD for all modern gen 3 night vision. 64-72 resolution doesn't mean jack squat. It's the signal to noise ratio, gain, EBI, halo, and other specs that are the most important.
I'd recommend buying from somebody like TNVC who will tell you exactly what you are paying for.
Would love to see how an IR illuminator/laser evens the playing field in those dark spaces...if it even does?
Km0ney32 It’ll most definitely even it out. At the end of this video I jump out inside the barn and turn on a red laser on a lever 30-30. Just that by itself lit up the inside good enough for the Echo.
Just FYI, the link to this video on your website is broken. Great video though. I subbed and rang the bell.
Thanks for the heads up! Good looking out and thanks for subbing. More coming up
Remmember guys this is gen 2+ and its still pretty ckear as it beats a lot of gen 3 tubes and ny firend got his for cheap
Just a Regular Guy how much did you friend get it for
What is a great price for a used one?
I doubt it beats most gen 3 tubes. They run 50-80k luminance gain and the gen ii photonis tubes are about 8-12k gain
@@Brokenrocktail it depends sometimes Gen 3 tubes are not that great and it also depends on the actual eyes of the person you need to actually test them in person
My understanding is that this isn’t technically gen 3 only because it wasn’t made in the USA. Based on the specs and I own one of these, it’s every bit as good as gen 3 tubes made in the USA, thoughts? Great Video!
OhioPreparedness No, that’s not correct. It is indeed a gen 2 image intensifier. It’s a very good tube but it physically can’t amplify light as high as gen 3 is capable of achieving.
The echo plus (that’s the name to use since I did the video) is as good as some gen 3, namely gen 3 with lower photocathode response. The Echo is noticeably dimmer than most gen 3 but more obvious on very dark nights.
If you dig deep, “Gen 3” and “Gen 2” are actually mil-std’s or “Mil-spec” terms. The DOD or whoever tests these devices for procurement, they set the standard for the “Generation” of the tubes. Not the manufacturers. The manufacturers will use the fact the DOD classified their tubes as “Gen 3” for marketing as well but a tube can miss a spec by a c#$t hair and it’s “Nope, not gen 3. It’s Gen 2” and I mean it can miss it by very very little. I’ve seen people look at an L3 GP tube and then a Photonis Echo GP tube, and people said the Echo was the L3 tube. Now photonis has ALWAYS been known for being much weaker when it comes to “EXTREME” low light but that’s the trade off you’ll get with going Photonis. I own a Photonis Echo GP in a Tanto and so far it hasn’t disappointed me yet and I went to VERYYYY dark places. But if I was indoors and it was entirely blacked out? Just absolute;t nothihg? Yea, it sucks. I’ve seen the L3 in situations like that do quite a bit better but I never really saw the difference worth it to me and others will totally differ on that.
Ok guys. Granted, this is an old video, but I thought it would be good to get some things straight. The Echo tubes are not fallout 4G tubes. Current 4G and Echo+ tubes (Echo+ tubes being the marketing gimmick used by Photonis in Europe for Echo tubes with 2000 FOM minimum) do not come from the same production line. The 4Gs have a redesigned MCP and some other minor improvements. They’re (both 4G and Echo) still gen2+ tubes with out of band capabilities. I personally think, having used US made gen 3 tubes (when I was doing my service) and photonis tubes (as a civilian), that US gen3 tubes have the upper hand for sure in NL5 conditions (especially when L3 filmless comes into play). My guess is that photocathode sensitivity (photonis doesn’t publish these figures) is lower in photonis tubes and, in conjunction with lower gain (63000 max in 4G+ tubes), results in worse performance than US gen3 tubes in low or no light conditions. Great video, by the way..... Again 😀
👍
Photonis echo tubes are about 8-10k luminance gain
@@Brokenrocktail Sorry, I guess I wasn't being clear. I converted the maximum gain of the 4G+ tubes to US units. You're spot on with the Echo gain figure, just bear in mind that the equivalent in US units is times 3.1 (roughly)
Would you recommend the AGM PVS-14 3AW3 Auto-Gated Night Vision Monocular (Gen 3+ White Phosphor)? What's the price on AGM PVS-14 3AW3? Great content. Thanks for your contribution.
I would not recommend AGM for 3 reasons.
1. There is no mention whatsoever of which actual gen 3 tube you are buying. All it says is "Gen 3 Auto-Gated "White Phosphor Level 3". That is totally worthless. The tube is the single most important thing and you need to know what you are buying.
2. Many users have posted their spec sheets online and it's an Excel doc they created. USA made Gen 3 tubes from Elbit or L3Harris come with spec sheets provided by them the manufacturer.
3. They use inferior optics.
@@NITEWALKER-NIGHTVISION Thanks for the heads-up. Great info. Thanks.
Hey, what IR beacon do you use for your dog? I'm trying to find one for my dog. I want to put it on her collar.
Best price is the Guardian IR. It has a twist top clockwise on/clockwise off. Nice thing with it is you can switch the head to a visible color like green, white, etc. clips on a collar easy. Get the dog collar adapter. TNVC has them. You can buy the visible unit to remove the head on amazon.
tnvc.com/shop/guardian-dual-function-infrared-beacon/
That’s the one we use. I put the visible head in it if we’re going to be near people. This way if our dog wanders off someone won’t mistake him for a coyote and try and shoot at him.
@@NITEWALKER-NIGHTVISION Thank you!!!
You're welcome!
I found a PVS-14 with Photonis WP at TNVC for just under $2,600. But for $375 more, I could get Harris HP+ from JRH/NVD.
I'm having a hard time deciding. I live in an urban environment, but I would love to go out in the woods and use whatever MNVD I have, and see as much as possible. I guess that means I either save $375 or go for it and cry once and get nearly the best performance(in green).
Thoughts?
12gaugebleachdrinker The Echo WP will look nicer IMO but you’ll need to use an illuminator more than the HP+ when in the woods with little to no moon. FYI, with the HP+ in low light conditions you’ll probably end up using an illuminator also. A good illuminator for hiking trails is the princeton tec switch with IR and white light.
Is photonis an American made tube? If not, where are they made? Thanks.
They are not American. They are European based in France but they have offices in the USA.
So I noticed right now jrhenterprises has the wp gen 2 echo pvs14 at $2800 and the gen 3 xls wp at $2800 how would these units compare one being gen 2 and the other gen 3 both wp would the xls be a better pick being gen3?
Would need to see spec sheets
Which ir light can it see 850 nm or 940nm?
Would you take a set of dual echos over a unfilmed WP PVS-14?
Yes I would, as long as the specs on the Echos were good. Resolution 64lp/mm & SNR 30 minimum. EBI as low as possible. Photonis lists theirs differently, for example .1 is actually 1. The one I had was .2 which as you can see still performed great.
@@NITEWALKER-NIGHTVISION Awesome thanks for the info!
@Km0ney32 Oh yeah, the specs on the Echo I showed are 67lp/mm, SNR 31.01 FOM 2078.
@@NITEWALKER-NIGHTVISION I appreciate it.....been wanting to step into NV for a while but could decide between doing 1 PVS-14 at a time or ponying up the cash for some duals
I'd take duals over a single no question. The Echo's are good especially for the savings compared to filmless.
Good vid bro, can you give a ballpark on the price? thanks.
JRH Enterprises has them for $2,800. I'd check his website to verify.
@jwrappuhn71 Just found out today that Night Goggles is offering these now at $2,600!
I'm often confused when I hear Americans talk about Photonis tubes as cheap. I see market prices for a complete PVS14 with US tube below 4k, while a top of the line Photonis Tube alone is about 5k. (prices in €)
In the US the Photonis Intens are just as expensive as unfilmed Gen 3 and more expensive than filmed. The Echo spec is less than Intens. For a WP tube, the Echo is considerably less then L3 filmless which is what most in the US buy.
@@NITEWALKER-NIGHTVISION Interesting, I considered the L3 filmelss as something that is only worth the extra effort to get when extreme low light is the main use case. Though over here it's hard to get proper US tubes. Many are "just a few hours used with a tiny cosmetic spot" and in reality they have massive laser damage or are from the 80th and have been gain adjusted so often, that they mostly show noise. There is always the fear that even directly buying from reputable US sellers will get me some "good enough for germans" tube.
It really depends on the user. I think for most civilian enthusiast/hobby users the Photonis Echo is good enough. Hardcore users looking for the best image will be happier with high spec L3 filmless white phosphor. I just recently picked up one with 72 lp/mm and 33.9 SNR and it is very noticeable better than the Photonis Echo bright or dark conditions.
@@NITEWALKER-NIGHTVISION That sounds like rather good specs. Personally I think Photonis tubes are overpriced for hobbyists and the SNR could be better. But they probably drive the photocatode at a lower voltage to increase the life time and compensate with the MCP, which adds noise. Especially when looking at the commercial grade tubes, there are much better alternatives for the money. Besides one would need a device designed for the Photonis tube to make use of the wide spectrum and I don't know about such devices existing.
Concerning the white phosphor, to me it looks unpleasant and cold white. I prefer green and a rather dim screen for a relaxed and detailed view. While someone I know can't see anything in green. So I like the choice and show scepticism when someone advertises white phosphor as the one and only solution. And while I know that tests with red phosphor never caught on, my curiosity makes me want to try to look through such a tube. Maybe one day there will be warm white tints for white phosphor, then I could be interested.
Which tube(s) do you have? Honestly, they'e all over priced for hobbyists, lol. I felt the same way WP but wanted to get it to see for myself. It's hard to explain. When I first looked through the Echo (my first WP) I kind of didn't like it but as I used it more my opinion changed. The L3 (2nd WP) it's phosphor is brighter then the Photonis but also has higher gain and specs 72 lp/mm & 33.9. With the L3 WP it contrasts the shadows better. Some of this could be from the higher specs filmless provides. I did immediately notice the WP is easier on my eyes than GP. I still want to get more time on them using both GP & WP to see if this observation changes.
I read the photonis echo tubes cannot pick up the IR laser from lower power class 1 IR lasers like the atpial-C. Are you able to confirm this with your experience?
It is harder to pick up the dot compared to my green phosphor Harris tubes. One benefit though is the bloom is better than with green.
@@NITEWALKER-NIGHTVISION Thanks for the reply! Keep up with the awesome content!
Thanks!! We have more in the works!
Can I get a Gen 2 like that that autogates?
These Echo tubes are autogated
How much was the setup in the video?
The PVS-14 in this video is from JRH Enterprises. It's $2,550. www.jrhenterprises.com/Photonis-PVS14-White-Phosphor-ECHO-SPEC-monocular-nvdphotonis14ECHOspec.htm
Whats a great price for a used one?
I haven't seen any used ones in a while so not sure what they're fetching right now but I'd say mid to low $2k. You can find more used gen 3 for sale for around the same prices for green phosphor.
What is the black light you have on your black helmet?
That's a Core Survival Hel-Star 6 dual spectrum marker. They have different versions for what color you want for vis and flash patterns. It has levers that switch from vis/IR and the flash pattern. Really easy to use with gloves. Mine is solid green/solid green with white strobe and dim IR flash/bright IR flash. Bought it from TNVC.
tnvc.com/shop/core-survival-hel-star-6-c2-ae-strobe/
I use it so if I'm out using my NVD's and get hurt/lost/bad shit, I can use the visible marker & flash so help can find me. If using it with other people wearing NVD's the IR mode is so they can see where I'm at.
@@NITEWALKER-NIGHTVISION Thanks
@@NITEWALKER-NIGHTVISION Oh I meant the light on the left side of the helmet as if you were wearing it
@@blkcpdconure Ah, I accidentally read "back" helmet. Surefire X300V.
I’ve heard from someone that you will not be able to see ir lasers while wearing these. Is this true?
Matthew Hargroder It sees IR lasers. There was a reported issue with the MAWL so the MAWL has a setting for using it with Photonis tubes. Steiner (DBAL’s) and L3/Insight (ATPIAL-C) work fine and I believe so does the Russian and Chinese stuff.
NITEWALKER great. Thanks for the speedy reply!
4:47
Bought my 14 photonis new for $1700 out the door.
Flipped it for $2200 lol
NICE!!
@@NITEWALKER-NIGHTVISION trying to source good used RNVGs now:)
Where did you get one for $1700? I'm looking for one now
For the dollars I’d rather get a thermal monocular. Yes you can see at night but your still limited by what’s in shadows and through windows
Thermal can't see through glass.
You need to stop blowing smoke up uncle sam's arse and realise who started all this in about 1929.