Ok I finally got around to sending it to LPL so you can stop asking! It should take about a week to get there, but I'm sure he's very busy so I wouldn't hold your breath for a video. Also I put the STEP files on thingiverse with some more information about why you probably don't want to print it. www.thingiverse.com/thing:4919035
LPL: "they left out an important detail, you see, the lock is made out of a thermoplastic, so using a blowtorch you might find at home, we can open it with relative ease"
@@lethalchicken1able The point is that an actual production lock would just be milled or broached. This design doesn't look difficult at all to modify to be mass-produced, he likely made it out of plastic just for the purpose of testing the mechanism, and making many small changes to it, between versions.
@@seifalah0626 He is not one to admit that he can’t get any lock open. Hopefully he will be honest and not dissect it to analyze how to get a successful pick. I mean not that he would do that you I was just saying! 😅
@@davedavenport8176 He has posted one or two that he wasn't able to open so he does admit when something does. But opening it up and figuring out how it works would be completely fair play. If a lock were to ever become an available product it would be able to be analyzed by everyone and any weaknesses could be found.
Awesome! Such a unique take on an “unpickable” lock design. I (like everyone else) would love to see LPL take this challenge on, the guy has x-ray vision when it comes to seeing faults and weaknesses to exploit!
I think the weakness in this design is that you can apply torque by pushing in on the lock rather than rotation. Any kind of shear should be able to take care of apply the necessary pressure for decoding. And whats worse is that because the pins slide out of the way once you have the combination set it is absurdly easy to open even without a key. Still a nice looking lock though
@@nickrogers3624 however it was actually demonstrated that the lock will push in even with the wrong key, however it won't turn, meaning that pushing it in actually puts no force on the pins and actually isolates them...
That is not by RUclips's design. It's a fluke. A gold nugget that should be cherished when encountered. RUclips rather pushes you into 1 or 2 channels with 100.000 video's than to show you 50000 channels with 1 or 2 video's. I really hate the youtube bubble... I had to find this channel by literally searching for the three keywords. (if interested: "3dprint unpickable lock" first hit) The search feature is the only feature that I actually still praise for its usability, the algorithm (aka the rest) made youtube a dire shitshow to be honest.
@@DMack6464 Dude i said nah it cant be, but youre right!!! This is the only video on this channel :))))))))))) I almost fell off of the chair laughing :) Someone also responded to you with a simple "yet" hahahahahahahahaha!!!!! FANBOY FOR LIFE hahahahahahdfjiasklfdhasuifo
As there's still no LPL response, here are my improvement ideas: 1. Replace the key touching ball by a standard short keypin, thus giving it a flat top on which the higher items rest. 2. Replace the ball that shifts between layers by a stack of thin master wafers. This increases the number of depths of each cut, thus allowing you to remove the side stacks that won't fit in standard form factors. Fine tuning the diameters can furter increase the number of wafer levels. 3. If the Euro profile doesn't have enough room, go for a scandinavian oval, which is still a defacto standard. 4. If you still can't get enough differs, try parallel stacks like in dimple locks, with a rectangular innermost cylinder instead of an interlocking pin.
I don't know whether it's pickable and I don't care, but what I do want to commend you on is the sheer design elegance. You can almost just make it on a lathe, and even an FDM print with a handful post reamed holes should just work.
Stuff made here said something similar once. Just watched lock picking lawyer open both of his designs. Time to start watching for this lock to cross the bench.
@@BD90.. It will be just longer U can't open anything if u don't know how it works, ever door knob will be unpickable for u, for time u need to learn how it works Key design, keyhole, mechanism, springs, all lock parts are necessary for picking a lock
The flaws that allowed the locks to be picked, were partially known to Stuff Made Here before sending the locks. So at least one of the two would be unpickable. He simply decided to not fix it beforehand to have a more entertaining video. He said so himself in a reaction video.
@@David_11111 I was gonna say I never saw a video at all. Problem I have with this is it's 3d printed. What about brute force attacks. A blowtorch would melt it lol.
@@Aliyah_666 that’s only a prototype, you could machine it or even 3D print it in metal, which is totally possible, but commercially unviable in large scale
@@Bernardo3477 this lock would be very easy to die cast or swiss machine. Hardest bit would be the keyway, but a custom broach or skilled die maker could make the keyway easily.
Good effort, I could see the sheer core being made of sintered alumina ceramic mixed with titanium, hardened steel and ceramic pins and damn near impossible to drill or burn out. Wish you true luck with this product 😁👍👍👍👍👍
@buffalo wt my point is that if the lock is made out of the materials above then it would be more worth than most of the things you have inside the house you want to protect.
I feel like calling something unpickable is really up to the interpretation of what the “pick” or tool is. It definitely seems to be “unpickable” with a normal pick and torsion wrench, but I can imagine a specialized tool could be created to pick the lock, much like how LPL has some custom tools to pick some types of locks.
@@jeffjustjeff2891 Key is meant to have only one configuration and be as unique as possible. On the other hand I've seen electric locks with key that is segmented with encoded parts that can rotate to change the combination, so... I guess It's actually a good question you ask here.
Excellent: "sets the pin positions and then cuts off access to them before you can open the lock" This uncoupling of pin set from gate trials is the essence of unpickable locks. Had locks been designed this way from the beginning, there would be no phrase nor profession of 'lock picking'. When the lock picking lawyer was confronted with another of these 2-step designs he turned to back side intrusions (not picking). You've got a great concept. Patent it quick. Smiles.
WOW, what a simple way of separating the pins from the turning mechanism. I've recently been watching other videos about impossible to pick locks and they all have this complex design that tries to separate the pins from the unlocking. Your design is so minimalistic I'm surprised no one thought about this before. I would say the only major downside is the binary coding that extremely reduces the different amounts of keys you could make with this. But either way, well done man!
Just judging off how LPL picked StuffMadeHere's lock (as both have a similar idea of "only check the pins after they cant be tampered with anymore), a locksmith might lift all the pins to their highest position, tension the lock, then tap it till the bearings fall into place. I this really works best with gravity aiding you though, and because your lock has pins in all 4 directions, it might not work
Just a reminder to everyone speculating about how to pick it: no lock is pickable by design, it's the inconsistencies in real-world machining that cause the flaws. This lock is unpickable by design (as are most locks), and there is no way to non-destructively compromise the ideal version as presented in the animation. Any locksmith/red-teamer would need a copy (or several) of the lock to actually determine where the flaws lie, and whether it's generalizable to all versions or if they must be compromised on a case-by-case basis.
I kind of love how RUclipsrs are coming up with hard to pick locks and then lock picking lawyer tests them out. I feel like it will lead to an amazing lock
Seems like a few attacks might work. First, depending on how those ball bearings are fused, if you cranked hard enough, you might be able to snap them apart. That would allow the lock to be opened with any key, including the original one, and wouldn't be visibly destructive. Second, given tolerances are what they are, if you applied the turning force offset from the center of the cylinder, you should be able to force one set of ball bearing to engage before the other three, allowing you to decipher one set at a time, cutting the permutations down to 16 four times. Finally, depending on tolerances once again, you might be able to insert shims between the outer lock body and at least one of the cylinders, which would allow you to decode the lock and "set" it in the correct position. If you really want to get creative, you might even be able to decode the lock by sensing the fuses directly, either magnetically if they are brass like the animation indicates, or by probing each slot, assuming there is enough of a gap between the ball bearings and the wall of the chamber.
Dunno if shimming would work, since it'd have to get around that lip in the front. Although I would love to see LPL go: "All we'll need to open this 'unpickable' lock is this shim I fashioned from a coke can"
@@Rman0712 It depends on tolerances and manufacturing method, chamfered or rounded edges would give a shim a surface to turn on and with three concentric cylinders, you need to control the stacked effect of three tolerances to control that gap without binding up the lock.
@@SBBurzmali At 2:24 it in the animation, it shows that the brown fused pins are always outside the white inner most cylinder, so the shim would have to go between the blue middle and black outer cylinders. Unless you can curve a shim on thin air don't think that's going to be possible. 😟
@@Rman0712 I suspect that the brass pins are going to fall below the shear line without a key in the lock, the animation doesn't show it, but I don't see how you could ensure all 4 sets of pins aren't falling out of place without pushing them into the key a bit, that should give you some ability to either shim them in place or at least detect the fuse.
@@SBBurzmali maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but @2:25 you can clearly see the brown bearing resting on the shear line between outer and middle cylinder. Completely agree that a shim between those 2 cylinders defeats this.
Replace the ball bearings with .0030 high master wafers for the passive pins and .0060 master wafers for the blocking pins, then you will have much better key permutations.
It would, but I believe the reason for using bearings means there's no useable lip to try tension against to set pins. The balls would just slip right off. Single pin picking would be extremely difficult, even if a way is found to tension the core.
@@psieonic Can't you round off the endings of the pins?? Then you would have the advantage of using more key permutations since the pins can vary in length and because the ends are rounded they can't create a lip to tension.
@@j3st3rxyz But then you kill the sub thou tolerance allowing for other more basic types of attacks. Why he didn't put a bearing under a master pin though has me kinda confused.
I love it. I too have thought about how to make an unpickable lock, and am surprised by the lack of novel locks out there. They all work on the same general principles. I hope that i eventually put pen to paper as you have and eventually make one.
I don't see how that could happen here, though. With the inner two cylinders rotationally coupled, and the innermost one locking into the lock body when it is at rest. Even if you could somehow try to directly tension the middle ring, it in turn would vtwist the innermost, which is locked into the lock body by the shape at the rear of the lock.
@@AlexusMaximusDE depending on construction, you can shim around non destructively. Also even if you need to drill, a very small hole might suffice, which you can make with a battery powered rotary tool that fits in your pocket and you can use inconspicously, rather than a battery drill that is much less concealable.
@@pyalot yeah shim it. That would work, just lift each pin enough to give yourself room incorrect bitting or not doesn't matter, just shim each set of pins, but then its not really single pin picking the lock.
It surely could not have been surprising that people would immediately want you to send it to the LPL. I'm happy you sent it to him. I'd love to see him do a video on it as he very frequently finds vulnerabilities that designers/engineers overlook.
This "lock the pins before testing them" idea seems to be catching traction with lock-designers trying to create a new actually pick-proof design. This is the second lock I've been recommended which uses that idea. The first (by Stuff Made here) already collaborated with LPL, and the only good solution he found to the revised version was a weakness at the back of the lock letting him bypass it. (The first version of the lock was susceptible to raking and then tapping to lower over-set pins into position)
I actually had a not far off similar design in mind but would use the middle cylinder (The cylinder between the outter shell and the keyway.) to unlock. The keyway cylinder would be free-spinning when the key is not inserted. Trying to pick would be impossible because the keyway would be free to spin. Putting the key in would set all the pins then press a pin at the very bottom that would lock the keyway and the middle cylinder together if all pins are set correctly. If all pins are not already set then the 2 cylinder wouldn't lock together.
That's an elegant design 👍. Neat way to isolate the pins and remember the key. Way simpler than the toy lock I made after watching the recent "stuff made here" video. Also ran across a nifty Chinese lock that lets the core freely spin and only allows the internal springs to check if the lock bar should unlock. (760? The Bowlie lock website mentions it as competition)
That's the Yuema 750. Apparently there's been an attack on it: ruclips.net/video/exaBQbJ_BKE/видео.html I think this lock combined with a 750 would be very secure since it would be much harder to do a precision attack when the core spins no matter what. You would have to fix the binary bitting limitation though.
@@davvigtu binary bitting isn't a problem. He's already got 64000 valid codes. With a dialer checking one code per second that's still 8-9 hours to brute force the lock. Looks pretty easy to go up to 24 pins with over a million keys. Adding in the 750 spinning core mechanism to frustrate precision decoding attacks would probably get more security for the design effort.
Depending a bit on the tolerances, I can see one quite easy way to defeat this lock. If there is enough gap between the outermost flange of the inner core and the body of the lock one might be able to feed in a thin, flexible shim stock between the outer rotating core and the body. Then just lift the ball stacks until you don't feel resistance from the "double ball" in way of the shim. Repeat this for all of the four locations and open the lock. Even if there's just enough space to one shim at a time, it will be quite easy to decode the biting. Also this design is really susceptible to a destructive attack by drilling the keyway just a tad larger and let the balls fall out to keyway.
I think the faceplate is in the way of putting any kind of shim into the lock that can reach the ball bearings. Go to 2:35 and look at the lightest color in the cutaway.
Super smart design. Similar in concept to the first StuffMadeHere lock, but I think your mechanism is really elegantly simple. One exploit I see would be to push the barrel backwards (without raising any pins), then strike the lock with a mallet while applying a small amount of toruqe. It would be exceptionally fiddly, but I think you could bump each of the pins above the shear line with enough patience.
The double bearings could get stuck on the sheer line, plus it's 4 sets of bearings, you'd have to get all of them at the same time. Seems kind of hard.
@@hugoguerreiro1078 Agree with that, they're basically spool pins. It's just the only possible exploit I can think of, though. There's a good chance it's not a practical one.
Yes! Finally I get to see another video of a lock before LPL show it on his channel. This is too awesome. Can’t wait to see if LPL feature this on his channel.
@@ethics3 dude well no shit. Links get you blacklisted because bots on this website is rampant. I dont know why you're so pressed about this. Just focus on other things in life than masquerading around and repeating the same sentiment on every LPL comment.
@@ethics3 channel moderators can blacklist certain words or phrases to get the comment automatically deleted, but if i cant convince you of that then ill stop trying
LockPickingLawyer picks locks made of metal, all his tools are created for this, and skills probably too, if he picks a lock made of plastic, the lock will lose its original appearance too quickly, that's probably why LockPickingLawyer refuses to deal with this lock. If you can send him a metal version, then maybe he will deal with this lock. I would also suggest that you team up with Stuff Made Here, he also sent a lock to LockPickingLawyer, it looks like he is interested in this hobby.
A tool to pick this is fairly simple in design concept. Create a key with high bitting across all lengths. At the pin locations have extendable pins in the key itself which can be lifted one ball bearing space into the lock body thus filling the first 2 chambers of the sheer core always with 2 bearings which would always open. Depending on tolerances could possibly accomplish it with high pressure air as well. Watching LPL open a lock with only an air compressor I'm pretty sure would be a new one for him.
looking at the animation at 2:30, it sounds like this lock can be defeated pretty easily by oversetting all the pins, so that the bottom two balls are inside the second cilinder. that would allow it to spin regardless of where the double balls are.
@@tequilacollins if you look at 2:25, you will see that all ball stacks are the same height, the only difference is the position of the double ball, which matches the key bitting. if (and only if) the lock design allows the 'pins' to be overset, you can cram the bottom two balls out of the core (grey) into the second cilinder (blue), that way neither will be prevented from moving. of course, that could not be done with a key, as you'd have to push the balls past the key hole. so tensioning and setting 20 pins in four different directions would be a formidable challenge, but certainly not one LPL wouldn't cope with.
@@KPbICMAH I get what you're trying to do, but to do that would require that you fit a single pin and a double pin into the outer cylinder (black), and I don't think there's room. Looking at the video, it looks like it would be close, but it's not showing the spring that also takes up room.
This was my first thought as well when I saw the schematic. Would not be all that difficult to do, but something that could be fixed in a future version.
Have you seen the quality of the locks LPL choose to show from those sent in by lock enthusiasts? He says he gets sent hundreds, I don't think this 3d printed one will make the cut...
It looks like there is some tension that can be generated when the plug isn't pushed in. The lock is annoying, but not unlockable. You'd need a rake and made a special bump key.
Yeah, due to the tolerances of the push-to-rotate mechanism, you can probably apply just enough tension to rake/pick the pins up before pushing forward with confidence
i love LPL, and a lot of design channels, and it's funny because i keep seeing youtube recommend me videos of people throwing "unpickable" locks at LPL, only to have him defeat them in some brilliant and insane way with ease lmfao, but the day someone makes something that he can not pick, and takes him at least a week to pick, or some other relatively long amount of time, is the day they go down in youtube history forever.
I really think this is a better design then stuff made here. It is very smart using multiple beads instead of just a two-part pin. This allowed the inner cylinder to block the beads from moving when it's pushed in. This would really be a challenge for lock picking lawyer!.
Somehow I have a feeling like the title of this video is going to age about as well as that the carton of milk I left at my front door for a week this past summer.
Notice that LPL hasn't done a video on this lock. Isn't that strange. Just like the way he failed completely to even attempt to pick Stuff Made Here's unpickable lock design.
Not only that LPL blocks anyone that mentions this lock in his comments section. I used to hold him in high regard. His picking skills are legendary, but now I know that to him it's all about the show, not his "mission" he pretends to be looking for.
Hi Tim, Very cool and unusual lock design! I like it. I'm a board member of The Open Organization Of Lockpickers, a dedicated group of lockpickers. Our key aspects are research and knowledge sharing. Locks that have been 'impossible' for many years have been recently opened non destructive non the less. The current list is quite small of locks that can't (yet) be opened non destructively. I believe for this lock traditionally picking will not do it. But I've some other ideas... Would you sell me a copy of lock for the collection? Jan-Willem
I will definitely send you one, but it might take a while for me to make another one... I think davvigtu might be right about being able to pick it by precisely measuring how far you can turn the key, but it would still be cool to see it done! Is there an actual list of so-far unpickable locks somewhere or is it unwritten? Thanks for the nice reply!
Hi I was wonder how feasible it would be to have a high security lock based off tolerances alone, something using like bearings to support the cylinders, and reamed or even edm drilled pin slots. Or is this just a really expensive way of manufacturing a lock that can still be picked relatively easily.
@@iain3713 Good question. Many high security locks rely on the high precision manufacturing but it's not only about tolerances. For example, a spool will give feedback that can be exploited no matter how good the tolerances are. Further some attacks have a higher success rate on locks with tight tolerances. Note: The Assa gin pins are a very good choice of pin for a 'zero tolerance lock'.
Do you know StuffMadeHere? He designed a full metal lock with the same principle as yours. I gotta say that you have executed the idea better! The lock picking lawyer already picked his version. you should check out these videos and maybe send it to the lpl himself to try to pick it. Also I would 3d print this in metal bofore that haha
Really Cool design and great concept. As people said earlier, it looks like oversetting the pins would be a weakness in this current design - however, I think if you made the middle cylinder hold 3 ballbearings instead of 2, this no longer becomes a problem (as you cannot lift 3 bearings and still allow the 2 cylinders to slide against each other) - the problem then becomes scaling this up to allow for more than binary pins. Either way, you would still need a special tool to be able to overset 4 rows of pins all at once, though I dont think that's an insurmountable challenge either. Love the concept either way, I'd love to see a 2.0 design, or even just other contraptions you've worked on!
As I understand it, the typical attack against these sorts of two-stage locks is a precision measurement attack. Like in a normal lock, manufacturing imprecision means that one of the incorrect pins will bind first. You can then use something like a Sputnik pick to vary every position one at a time and discover when the lock turns ever so slightly more. Here's a video using this attack to decode a combination lock: ruclips.net/video/h1MYWwpqH2s/видео.html I think you could miniaturize your design by using a tubular lock so that the second stage is behind the first stage (deeper into the lock body) rather than surrounding it.
Ah that is a clever attack! Probably would still take quite a while but I think it might work. I did consider the tubular design but it's difficult to fit in enough pins because you need so many.
@@timhutt7051 Could you stack very small key pins to get a base greater than 2? If you have a key pin that's two cuts deep, and the key can have eight cuts, you could then have four of these (that would shear on any cut that's a multiple of two) with this stack pushing on an ordinary key and driver for the second stage. Perhaps the small intermediate key pins would be too flimsy or get clogged with grit after long-term use, though.
I think you could also do precision decoding with a set of 20-30 "test pattern" keys. Only have a vague hold on the math though so would need help figuring out the optimal test pattern. Do you have any other examples of 2-stage locks?
I like LPL helped me make good decisions, BUT he won't feature anything he can't pick. I can say from experience if you send something he cant pick especially mainstream product he will not feature it , he is either busy or his justification is I can't pick it just yet so I will feature it later. I don’t have an issue with that policy just saying.... only way this lock is going on his channel is if he figures out a way to pick it.
Push up 1 pin stack, push in the inner core, add rotational tension, observe for slight additional rotation then pull the inner core back and check for drag from rotation. If you observe either the additional rotation or additional drag pulling the inner core out then thats your first binder otherwise reset the pins then try the next one until you find the first binding pin. Write it down. After the first binding pin is found the method changes slightly. Push the inner core in just enough to be able to set the first binding pin without it falling, then look for the next binder by pushing in an additional stack. Push the inner core in look for even more rotation or drag pulling out. If there is no additional rotation or drag pulling the inner core out, completely reset the pins then restart this portion setting the first binder again and attempting with another stack. When you find the next one write it down then start looking for the next binder with the first two set. Repeat until unlocked. It may be a little slow but since the bitting is binary, not only should you eventually pick it open but as a result you should also have to key completely decoded to be able to cut your own for future use. This is based on using the mechanism in back that prevents the outer core from turning unless the inner core is pushed in for feedback instead of the sudden movement and click from pins being set while tensioned in standard locks. The drag would be from it lining up less and less as binding pins that it catches on first are no longer blocking it allowing the core to rotate slightly further. All manufacturing has tollerences and some pins will always bind before others due to that. Thats more important to single pin picking than being able to consistantly tension it while you pick. Would love to have a copy of this to test it out, but otherwise this is mostly speculation. Love the lock design though, even if that does turn out to work it would still be pretty pick resistant. I'm not very good at writing so I'm sorry if that comes accross as word salad :(
I'm not sure that would work. You can't apply torque without pushing the centre piece back and once you push it back, you cant access the pins to pick.
This is a pretty great design. Since no tension can be applied to the pins; raking, ssp-ing, foil attacks, and standard impressioning won't work on it. The only thing that I can see going wrong is either over setting or under setting the pins. But for an attack like that on this lock to work, you would need to find a way to brute force the right combo. And by doing it that way, you have atleast 65440 possibilities (providing that you either go for max or min setting of the pins like binary between 0 and 1111111111111111) Overall, this seems like a pretty impressive lock
This seems to be possibly prone to oversetting. Pushing all the balls deep enough into their channels (actually just one ball diameter deeper than the key would) will push all the double balls out of the way and the lock will turn. But it may be tricky to execute at all four sides at once and the lock certainly can be made resistant to it.
@@stinky817 Oversetting always means pushing pins (or balls in this case) deeper into the pinholes than a key would. Number of possible cut depths on the key is irrelevant.
Lovely idea to prevent tensioning. Simple enough to mass produce. Depending on tolerances. Maybe a slim possibility of it being decodable with 4 binary keys that allow one stack at a time to be high and measuring rotation angle. But I doubt that would be reliable. Assuming 50/50 change high low, half the pins would already be set. So you only have to set 8. It's a guess that having 7 in the right spot would allow slightly more rotation and so could he measured.
The cross lock makes it more difficult to pick. But unlike a key, which may bind when inserted the wrong way, a lock picker will not be using a key. Instead they'll use tension and a smaller lock pick tool. So they'll have access to all the ball bearing and driver pins. I'm not an expert, but as long as there's some mechanism (key) being used to unlock a lock, there will always be a way to simulate that key with tools.
I have a method that I believe would pick the lock you show in your animation. There seems to be a flaw that could be easily fixed. Your design allows pins to be set to "position 0" and "position 1" with the key. With 4 special comb shaped tools along with a central tapered rod tool, you could set all pins to "position 2" and the lock would open. You can prevent this by limiting pin travel and/or placing some double height pins (like the shear line ones) at the bottom of the stack. Great work though. This is a super elegant and simple solution that I think shows a lot of potential.
Well if and when you're ready, I'd love to have one for my collection. But I wouldn't feel right to not give you something for your time. Please keep me in mind if you ever do decide to make them available👍
@@timhutt7051 I love the idea of open sourcing this. We could see a rapid and massive improvement in lock security in a very short period of time. Not to mention the rapid improvements and modifications that would occur. You seem to be a genius, and are definitely deserving of reward for putting in so much hard work to manifest such an elegant design. There is still plenty of money to be made in building a supply chain for physical products without having to try to withhold the IP of that product. I wish you great success and have a great deal of respect for your desire to share this openly with the world! Keep up the good work 👍
@@timhutt7051 Interested? Of course interested. Such a lock would be very cool to add to a collection. Of course we all want to see you send one off to LPL just to see what he would make of it. He was willing to admit defeat on the Bowley though people have managed to pick that one with a rare bit of skills and tools.
I think if there is enough space to push the ball bearings in by the length of two balls, then you could bypass the mechanism by pushing all the double pins out of the middle cylinder. Since the balls require springs to overcome gravity, the springs will have to be perfectly fitted for each lock to prevent them from being pushed back too far, which would make it expensive to produce. A high price tag is definitely worth the added pick resistance however.
Exactly. In the animation showing 8 of the 16 pin stacks, 6/8 are already set and the other two would act like spools, having to find the right order so set all the unset pins would be all. because all are identical spools, it would be easy to immediatelly chwck which stacks are set and which need to be raised. if you dont want to bother trying a lot of different orders to set, you could just inset a ball bearing i each unset stack and fix it with tape. and done. from there it just opens by pushing and turning.
it's funny because i have been dreaming about designing an unpickable lock ever sinece i saw Shawn from Stuff Made Here make his lock (although I would probably never actually have sat my ass down to do so) The design i had in mind and have been dreaming about was actually exactly along the lines of what you just made here with binary pins but my issue was to fit them all because i thought you would need at least 10-16 of them to have a descent security. I see you have been smarter than me and arranged them nicely in quarters. Didn't think of that, nice job. I'm so happy to see someone had the same ideas and actually put the effort into making it work.
This is a cool design, just hope the tolorenses are tight enough to not be jigle- able, else LPL would need to grow another 2 arms to do it. Adding security pins will probably add to the compexity further. Hoping for a vid from him, this is good stuff. Also your animations are top quality, this was a pleasure to watch.
I assume you already thought about this but the video didn't mention it explicitly: are the stacks + springs solid enough that you cannot overlift all the stacks two balls worth?
@@jackaw1197 The problem with thin metal things is that they are vulnerable to bending by brute force attack. But yeah, there're multiple ways to fix the problem. For example, if the spring stack can be compressed to much, just add a regular pin of suitable length in the stack. That cannot be bent and it will reduce the available space for the compression.
It seems to me that you wouldn't be able to hold the balls at that height unless you had a pick on every pin stack as you tried turning because there is an extra ball height in the inner core
![[1295] Unbreakable, Unpickable, & Bulletproof? (TED Tooling’s Unusual Lock)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DX1KaFmER2s/mqdefault.jpg)
![[1295] Unbreakable, Unpickable, & Bulletproof? (TED Tooling’s Unusual Lock)](/img/tr.png)
Ok I finally got around to sending it to LPL so you can stop asking! It should take about a week to get there, but I'm sure he's very busy so I wouldn't hold your breath for a video.
Also I put the STEP files on thingiverse with some more information about why you probably don't want to print it.
www.thingiverse.com/thing:4919035
Funny that youtube just recommended this now. Good stuff
@@dumbbellenjoyer Indeed
The magic YT algorithm brought us right now
Great. I'm looking forward to it.
Well, it's a cool 404 page!! XD
LPL: "they left out an important detail, you see, the lock is made out of a thermoplastic, so using a blowtorch you might find at home, we can open it with relative ease"
But you can machine it from steal, witout a problem. Just need tools and guy dont have it.
I read that in his voice
It isn't made out of a thermoplastic though..
No need to pick it when the lock is that easy to brute force.
@@lethalchicken1able The point is that an actual production lock would just be milled or broached. This design doesn't look difficult at all to modify to be mass-produced, he likely made it out of plastic just for the purpose of testing the mechanism, and making many small changes to it, between versions.
You should send one to the LockPickingLawyer as a challenge!
I was thinking the same thing!! It's not unpickable until LPL declares it unpickable
It will be very interesting to see if LPL is not only up for the challenge but able to preform the pick.
@@davedavenport8176 he's always up for a challenge. The question is, will he be able to pick it easily or will he be defeated?
@@seifalah0626
He is not one to admit that he can’t get any lock open. Hopefully he will be honest and not dissect it to analyze how to get a successful pick.
I mean not that he would do that you I was just saying! 😅
@@davedavenport8176 He has posted one or two that he wasn't able to open so he does admit when something does. But opening it up and figuring out how it works would be completely fair play. If a lock were to ever become an available product it would be able to be analyzed by everyone and any weaknesses could be found.
LPL: "Using this special tool I developed with Bosnian Bill..."
Bosnian bill and i made*
@@ttominable: I defer. Your syntax is "correcter."😉
@@SMac-bq8sk correctester
Only works on disc detainer locks.
We call this tool the "go fuck your lock" tool.
who else came back here to seek for an update and got disappointed that a year or so after the lock was sent there still isn't a video from the LPL?
Still :(
Title: Unpickable
LPL: "Nothing on 1, nothing on 2, 3 is binding..."
Hahahaha 👍
@Creatotron "For this lock, we will use the specialized decoding tool that Bosnian Bill and I made..."
"... click out of four. Back to the beginning..."
I think LPL can get it open, but it’s going to take a new approach for sure
Sneaky sneaky
Awesome! Such a unique take on an “unpickable” lock design. I (like everyone else) would love to see LPL take this challenge on, the guy has x-ray vision when it comes to seeing faults and weaknesses to exploit!
not unique but definitely special!
Well, in principle it's the same as stuff made here's
I think the weakness in this design is that you can apply torque by pushing in on the lock rather than rotation. Any kind of shear should be able to take care of apply the necessary pressure for decoding. And whats worse is that because the pins slide out of the way once you have the combination set it is absurdly easy to open even without a key.
Still a nice looking lock though
@@nickrogers3624 how would that decoding method work. The tensioning method is valid, but how would you determine which pins are correctly set?
@@nickrogers3624 however it was actually demonstrated that the lock will push in even with the wrong key, however it won't turn, meaning that pushing it in actually puts no force on the pins and actually isolates them...
I am so happy that RUclips nowadays shows me channels with great content but little to none subscribers so that I can support great creators.
That is not by RUclips's design. It's a fluke. A gold nugget that should be cherished when encountered.
RUclips rather pushes you into 1 or 2 channels with 100.000 video's than to show you 50000 channels with 1 or 2 video's.
I really hate the youtube bubble... I had to find this channel by literally searching for the three keywords. (if interested: "3dprint unpickable lock" first hit)
The search feature is the only feature that I actually still praise for its usability, the algorithm (aka the rest) made youtube a dire shitshow to be honest.
This channel doesn't have any other videos
@@DMack6464 yet
@@DMack6464 Dude i said nah it cant be, but youre right!!! This is the only video on this channel :))))))))))) I almost fell off of the chair laughing :) Someone also responded to you with a simple "yet" hahahahahahahahaha!!!!! FANBOY FOR LIFE hahahahahahdfjiasklfdhasuifo
As there's still no LPL response, here are my improvement ideas:
1. Replace the key touching ball by a standard short keypin, thus giving it a flat top on which the higher items rest.
2. Replace the ball that shifts between layers by a stack of thin master wafers. This increases the number of depths of each cut, thus allowing you to remove the side stacks that won't fit in standard form factors. Fine tuning the diameters can furter increase the number of wafer levels.
3. If the Euro profile doesn't have enough room, go for a scandinavian oval, which is still a defacto standard.
4. If you still can't get enough differs, try parallel stacks like in dimple locks, with a rectangular innermost cylinder instead of an interlocking pin.
I don't know whether it's pickable and I don't care, but what I do want to commend you on is the sheer design elegance. You can almost just make it on a lathe, and even an FDM print with a handful post reamed holes should just work.
Stuff made here said something similar once. Just watched lock picking lawyer open both of his designs. Time to start watching for this lock to cross the bench.
But it would be great if LPL doesn't know how it works though.
@@BD90.. It will be just longer
U can't open anything if u don't know how it works, ever door knob will be unpickable for u, for time u need to learn how it works
Key design, keyhole, mechanism, springs, all lock parts are necessary for picking a lock
The flaws that allowed the locks to be picked, were partially known to Stuff Made Here before sending the locks. So at least one of the two would be unpickable. He simply decided to not fix it beforehand to have a more entertaining video. He said so himself in a reaction video.
@@BD90.. That's not how anything works ever.
Stuff made here's design is solid just one fix and it's unpickable
We are all expecting you to send it to the Lockpicking Lawyer for test!
Especially since you quoted him this is a must!
He not just quoted him, but also copied his style at the start
I love your mechanism - it's elegant, it doesn't have too much moving parts, and it does its job.
But how does it actually lock anything up? It's entirely self contained, with no way to actually do anything. I'd call it a puzzle, more than a lock
Lock Picking Lawyers Ego is on the line.
Please post the lockpickinglaywer one, it would be great to see what he says about it. It looks really cool.
Ok I will post it tomorrow!
@@timhutt7051 did He get it ? Can he open it !!!!!!!
@@David_11111 I was gonna say I never saw a video at all. Problem I have with this is it's 3d printed. What about brute force attacks. A blowtorch would melt it lol.
@@Aliyah_666 that’s only a prototype, you could machine it or even 3D print it in metal, which is totally possible, but commercially unviable in large scale
@@Bernardo3477 this lock would be very easy to die cast or swiss machine. Hardest bit would be the keyway, but a custom broach or skilled die maker could make the keyway easily.
Good effort, I could see the sheer core being made of sintered alumina ceramic mixed with titanium, hardened steel and ceramic pins and damn near impossible to drill or burn out. Wish you true luck with this product 😁👍👍👍👍👍
if you do that the lock gets cut entirely out of the door as the thing the thief wants
@@dovos8572 Xd
@buffalo wt my point is that if the lock is made out of the materials above then it would be more worth than most of the things you have inside the house you want to protect.
I feel like calling something unpickable is really up to the interpretation of what the “pick” or tool is. It definitely seems to be “unpickable” with a normal pick and torsion wrench, but I can imagine a specialized tool could be created to pick the lock, much like how LPL has some custom tools to pick some types of locks.
>specialized tool
you mean a key?
@@jeffjustjeff2891 obviously ‘special tool’ suggests a tool that can be used to open any lock with the same design. No, not a key.
@@TjMoon91 at what point does a key become a tool or a tool become a key?
@@jeffjustjeff2891 Key is meant to have only one configuration and be as unique as possible. On the other hand I've seen electric locks with key that is segmented with encoded parts that can rotate to change the combination, so... I guess It's actually a good question you ask here.
@@jeffjustjeff2891 I mean if the teeth of a key are jagged enough its a mini saw. So technically they could be multi-tools lol
Excellent: "sets the pin positions and then cuts off access to them before you can open the lock" This uncoupling of pin set from gate trials is the essence of unpickable locks. Had locks been designed this way from the beginning, there would be no phrase nor profession of 'lock picking'. When the lock picking lawyer was confronted with another of these 2-step designs he turned to back side intrusions (not picking). You've got a great concept. Patent it quick. Smiles.
“This is the lock picking lawyer, and I’ve come to you today to let you all know Bosnian Bill is coming out of retirement just to help pick this lock”
WOW, what a simple way of separating the pins from the turning mechanism. I've recently been watching other videos about impossible to pick locks and they all have this complex design that tries to separate the pins from the unlocking. Your design is so minimalistic I'm surprised no one thought about this before. I would say the only major downside is the binary coding that extremely reduces the different amounts of keys you could make with this. But either way, well done man!
Love the way you implemented the decoupling before being able to turn. Very elegant. It looks simpler than the implementation by Stuff Made Here
Just judging off how LPL picked StuffMadeHere's lock (as both have a similar idea of "only check the pins after they cant be tampered with anymore), a locksmith might lift all the pins to their highest position, tension the lock, then tap it till the bearings fall into place. I this really works best with gravity aiding you though, and because your lock has pins in all 4 directions, it might not work
Maybe you can use artificial gravity by rotating the lock fast.
@@bee2hive I know youre joking but thatd spin the pins in the wrong direction, lol
Centrifuge force then ?
You can't tension the lock unless you push it in though, and if you push it in you can no longer drop the bearings.
@@xbrain13 Centrifugal "force" would push the pins out, not in
Just a reminder to everyone speculating about how to pick it: no lock is pickable by design, it's the inconsistencies in real-world machining that cause the flaws. This lock is unpickable by design (as are most locks), and there is no way to non-destructively compromise the ideal version as presented in the animation. Any locksmith/red-teamer would need a copy (or several) of the lock to actually determine where the flaws lie, and whether it's generalizable to all versions or if they must be compromised on a case-by-case basis.
I kind of love how RUclipsrs are coming up with hard to pick locks and then lock picking lawyer tests them out. I feel like it will lead to an amazing lock
Seems like a few attacks might work. First, depending on how those ball bearings are fused, if you cranked hard enough, you might be able to snap them apart. That would allow the lock to be opened with any key, including the original one, and wouldn't be visibly destructive. Second, given tolerances are what they are, if you applied the turning force offset from the center of the cylinder, you should be able to force one set of ball bearing to engage before the other three, allowing you to decipher one set at a time, cutting the permutations down to 16 four times. Finally, depending on tolerances once again, you might be able to insert shims between the outer lock body and at least one of the cylinders, which would allow you to decode the lock and "set" it in the correct position.
If you really want to get creative, you might even be able to decode the lock by sensing the fuses directly, either magnetically if they are brass like the animation indicates, or by probing each slot, assuming there is enough of a gap between the ball bearings and the wall of the chamber.
Dunno if shimming would work, since it'd have to get around that lip in the front. Although I would love to see LPL go:
"All we'll need to open this 'unpickable' lock is this shim I fashioned from a coke can"
@@Rman0712 It depends on tolerances and manufacturing method, chamfered or rounded edges would give a shim a surface to turn on and with three concentric cylinders, you need to control the stacked effect of three tolerances to control that gap without binding up the lock.
@@SBBurzmali At 2:24 it in the animation, it shows that the brown fused pins are always outside the white inner most cylinder, so the shim would have to go between the blue middle and black outer cylinders. Unless you can curve a shim on thin air don't think that's going to be possible. 😟
@@Rman0712 I suspect that the brass pins are going to fall below the shear line without a key in the lock, the animation doesn't show it, but I don't see how you could ensure all 4 sets of pins aren't falling out of place without pushing them into the key a bit, that should give you some ability to either shim them in place or at least detect the fuse.
@@SBBurzmali maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but @2:25 you can clearly see the brown bearing resting on the shear line between outer and middle cylinder.
Completely agree that a shim between those 2 cylinders defeats this.
That's some great ingenuity and the 3D visualization was great too... I'm looking forward to see your next design with the standard euro lock profile
Replace the ball bearings with .0030 high master wafers for the passive pins and .0060 master wafers for the blocking pins, then you will have much better key permutations.
It would, but I believe the reason for using bearings means there's no useable lip to try tension against to set pins. The balls would just slip right off. Single pin picking would be extremely difficult, even if a way is found to tension the core.
@@psieonic Can't you round off the endings of the pins?? Then you would have the advantage of using more key permutations since the pins can vary in length and because the ends are rounded they can't create a lip to tension.
@@j3st3rxyz But then you kill the sub thou tolerance allowing for other more basic types of attacks. Why he didn't put a bearing under a master pin though has me kinda confused.
I love it. I too have thought about how to make an unpickable lock, and am surprised by the lack of novel locks out there. They all work on the same general principles. I hope that i eventually put pen to paper as you have and eventually make one.
WOW! same basic idea as the one made by Stuff Made Here but completely different approach, much simpler and easier to manufacture. Great Job!
The weakness of tensioning denial mechanisms is usually that there's other ways to tension the bolt than the intended mechanism.
I don't see how that could happen here, though. With the inner two cylinders rotationally coupled, and the innermost one locking into the lock body when it is at rest. Even if you could somehow try to directly tension the middle ring, it in turn would vtwist the innermost, which is locked into the lock body by the shape at the rear of the lock.
@@Firebat45 Shim or drill by the keyslot to tension the bolt
@@pyalot At that point it's no longer picking, it's just destroying the lock. Every lock is susceptible to being destroyed 🙄
@@AlexusMaximusDE depending on construction, you can shim around non destructively. Also even if you need to drill, a very small hole might suffice, which you can make with a battery powered rotary tool that fits in your pocket and you can use inconspicously, rather than a battery drill that is much less concealable.
@@pyalot yeah shim it. That would work, just lift each pin enough to give yourself room incorrect bitting or not doesn't matter, just shim each set of pins, but then its not really single pin picking the lock.
That's a wonderfully elegant solution! Can't wait to see what the lockpickinglawyer finds to exploit this lock!
Lock picking lawyer : "ah shit! Here we go again"
It surely could not have been surprising that people would immediately want you to send it to the LPL. I'm happy you sent it to him. I'd love to see him do a video on it as he very frequently finds vulnerabilities that designers/engineers overlook.
This "lock the pins before testing them" idea seems to be catching traction with lock-designers trying to create a new actually pick-proof design. This is the second lock I've been recommended which uses that idea. The first (by Stuff Made here) already collaborated with LPL, and the only good solution he found to the revised version was a weakness at the back of the lock letting him bypass it. (The first version of the lock was susceptible to raking and then tapping to lower over-set pins into position)
Talk about one hell of a RUclips debut, best of luck on all your future ventures. I can't wait to see LPL try this lock out.
That's a lot more elegant than Stuff Made Here's design. The idea to use ball bearings as pins is genius!
I actually had a not far off similar design in mind but would use the middle cylinder (The cylinder between the outter shell and the keyway.) to unlock. The keyway cylinder would be free-spinning when the key is not inserted. Trying to pick would be impossible because the keyway would be free to spin.
Putting the key in would set all the pins then press a pin at the very bottom that would lock the keyway and the middle cylinder together if all pins are set correctly. If all pins are not already set then the 2 cylinder wouldn't lock together.
That's an elegant design 👍. Neat way to isolate the pins and remember the key. Way simpler than the toy lock I made after watching the recent "stuff made here" video. Also ran across a nifty Chinese lock that lets the core freely spin and only allows the internal springs to check if the lock bar should unlock. (760? The Bowlie lock website mentions it as competition)
That's the Yuema 750. Apparently there's been an attack on it: ruclips.net/video/exaBQbJ_BKE/видео.html
I think this lock combined with a 750 would be very secure since it would be much harder to do a precision attack when the core spins no matter what. You would have to fix the binary bitting limitation though.
@@davvigtu binary bitting isn't a problem. He's already got 64000 valid codes. With a dialer checking one code per second that's still 8-9 hours to brute force the lock. Looks pretty easy to go up to 24 pins with over a million keys. Adding in the 750 spinning core mechanism to frustrate precision decoding attacks would probably get more security for the design effort.
Depending a bit on the tolerances, I can see one quite easy way to defeat this lock.
If there is enough gap between the outermost flange of the inner core and the body of the lock one might be able to feed in a thin, flexible shim stock between the outer rotating core and the body. Then just lift the ball stacks until you don't feel resistance from the "double ball" in way of the shim. Repeat this for all of the four locations and open the lock. Even if there's just enough space to one shim at a time, it will be quite easy to decode the biting.
Also this design is really susceptible to a destructive attack by drilling the keyway just a tad larger and let the balls fall out to keyway.
I think the faceplate is in the way of putting any kind of shim into the lock that can reach the ball bearings. Go to 2:35 and look at the lightest color in the cutaway.
LPL: "All locks are easy to open, if you take you time!"
Tim: "Challenge Accepted!"
Very innovative! I can tell you spent quite a bit of time with this design, great job bro!
Super smart design. Similar in concept to the first StuffMadeHere lock, but I think your mechanism is really elegantly simple.
One exploit I see would be to push the barrel backwards (without raising any pins), then strike the lock with a mallet while applying a small amount of toruqe. It would be exceptionally fiddly, but I think you could bump each of the pins above the shear line with enough patience.
The double bearings could get stuck on the sheer line, plus it's 4 sets of bearings, you'd have to get all of them at the same time. Seems kind of hard.
@@hugoguerreiro1078 Agree with that, they're basically spool pins.
It's just the only possible exploit I can think of, though. There's a good chance it's not a practical one.
Yes! Finally I get to see another video of a lock before LPL show it on his channel. This is too awesome. Can’t wait to see if LPL feature this on his channel.
he is hiding and blocking anyone who issues this challenge to him. Try it with the link to this vid and see how fast you are blocked
@@ethics3 dude well no shit. Links get you blacklisted because bots on this website is rampant. I dont know why you're so pressed about this. Just focus on other things in life than masquerading around and repeating the same sentiment on every LPL comment.
@@yeahok6240 Ill comment how I feel buddy . What i am stating is the truth which you seem to have an issue with
@@yeahok6240 Ohh. And links dont get you blacklisted. God , you like to support lies !!
@@ethics3 channel moderators can blacklist certain words or phrases to get the comment automatically deleted, but if i cant convince you of that then ill stop trying
LockPickingLawyer picks locks made of metal, all his tools are created for this, and skills probably too, if he picks a lock made of plastic, the lock will lose its original appearance too quickly, that's probably why LockPickingLawyer refuses to deal with this lock. If you can send him a metal version, then maybe he will deal with this lock. I would also suggest that you team up with Stuff Made Here, he also sent a lock to LockPickingLawyer, it looks like he is interested in this hobby.
A tool to pick this is fairly simple in design concept. Create a key with high bitting across all lengths. At the pin locations have extendable pins in the key itself which can be lifted one ball bearing space into the lock body thus filling the first 2 chambers of the sheer core always with 2 bearings which would always open. Depending on tolerances could possibly accomplish it with high pressure air as well.
Watching LPL open a lock with only an air compressor I'm pretty sure would be a new one for him.
looking at the animation at 2:30, it sounds like this lock can be defeated pretty easily by oversetting all the pins, so that the bottom two balls are inside the second cilinder. that would allow it to spin regardless of where the double balls are.
Doesn't look like all 5 pins would fir in the 2nd cylinder.
@@tequilacollins if you look at 2:25, you will see that all ball stacks are the same height, the only difference is the position of the double ball, which matches the key bitting. if (and only if) the lock design allows the 'pins' to be overset, you can cram the bottom two balls out of the core (grey) into the second cilinder (blue), that way neither will be prevented from moving. of course, that could not be done with a key, as you'd have to push the balls past the key hole. so tensioning and setting 20 pins in four different directions would be a formidable challenge, but certainly not one LPL wouldn't cope with.
@@KPbICMAH I get what you're trying to do, but to do that would require that you fit a single pin and a double pin into the outer cylinder (black), and I don't think there's room. Looking at the video, it looks like it would be close, but it's not showing the spring that also takes up room.
This was my first thought as well when I saw the schematic. Would not be all that difficult to do, but something that could be fixed in a future version.
Tim, This is an awesome design and beautiful execution. Keep up the good work.
I am still here, patiently waiting for LPLs response
Just obvious reminder that I never forgot. LPL should pick it ASAP
Still waiting ...
Have you seen the quality of the locks LPL choose to show from those sent in by lock enthusiasts?
He says he gets sent hundreds, I don't think this 3d printed one will make the cut...
@@mightym I (with my limited knowledge) think that this one is really interesting design. But your point is valid, thanks
Still here too, but with slightly waning optimism...
Here before lockpicking lawyer makes this channel big!
Surely LPL should have this by now ..
I'm surprised you only have one video with how well made it is.
It looks like there is some tension that can be generated when the plug isn't pushed in. The lock is annoying, but not unlockable.
You'd need a rake and made a special bump key.
Yeah, due to the tolerances of the push-to-rotate mechanism, you can probably apply just enough tension to rake/pick the pins up before pushing forward with confidence
I think it is a brilliant design, because it is the same solution I came up with a while back, but never implemented. Great work sir!
This is pretty impressive man!
i love LPL, and a lot of design channels, and it's funny because i keep seeing youtube recommend me videos of people throwing "unpickable" locks at LPL, only to have him defeat them in some brilliant and insane way with ease lmfao, but the day someone makes something that he can not pick, and takes him at least a week to pick, or some other relatively long amount of time, is the day they go down in youtube history forever.
I really want to see the Lawyer pick this one!!!
I am subbed for more.
I really think this is a better design then stuff made here. It is very smart using multiple beads instead of just a two-part pin. This allowed the inner cylinder to block the beads from moving when it's pushed in.
This would really be a challenge for lock picking lawyer!.
very clever, cant wait for LPL to try it!
Somehow I have a feeling like the title of this video is going to age about as well as that the carton of milk I left at my front door for a week this past summer.
Notice that LPL hasn't done a video on this lock. Isn't that strange. Just like the way he failed completely to even attempt to pick Stuff Made Here's unpickable lock design.
Not only that LPL blocks anyone that mentions this lock in his comments section. I used to hold him in high regard. His picking skills are legendary, but now I know that to him it's all about the show, not his "mission" he pretends to be looking for.
@@CheesyStevehe is a lawyer after all.
youre really giving Stuff Made Here a run for his money ;)
LMFAO 🤣
This being your first video; the quality is
marvellous.
Subbed, on the hope you’ll make more!
Hi Tim,
Very cool and unusual lock design! I like it.
I'm a board member of The Open Organization Of Lockpickers, a dedicated group of lockpickers.
Our key aspects are research and knowledge sharing.
Locks that have been 'impossible' for many years have been recently opened non destructive non the less.
The current list is quite small of locks that can't (yet) be opened non destructively.
I believe for this lock traditionally picking will not do it. But I've some other ideas...
Would you sell me a copy of lock for the collection?
Jan-Willem
I will definitely send you one, but it might take a while for me to make another one...
I think davvigtu might be right about being able to pick it by precisely measuring how far you can turn the key, but it would still be cool to see it done!
Is there an actual list of so-far unpickable locks somewhere or is it unwritten?
Thanks for the nice reply!
Hi I was wonder how feasible it would be to have a high security lock based off tolerances alone, something using like bearings to support the cylinders, and reamed or even edm drilled pin slots. Or is this just a really expensive way of manufacturing a lock that can still be picked relatively easily.
@@iain3713 Good question. Many high security locks rely on the high precision manufacturing but it's not only about tolerances. For example, a spool will give feedback that can be exploited no matter how good the tolerances are. Further some attacks have a higher success rate on locks with tight tolerances.
Note: The Assa gin pins are a very good choice of pin for a 'zero tolerance lock'.
@@jwrm22 just out of curiosity, what attacks work better with high tolerance locks?
If you manage to get a copy of this, I'd love to see you talking more about it! Very cool
Very interesting and surprising sophisticated design since it’s 3D printed. Can’t wait to see LPL try picking it.
Do you know StuffMadeHere? He designed a full metal lock with the same principle as yours. I gotta say that you have executed the idea better! The lock picking lawyer already picked his version. you should check out these videos and maybe send it to the lpl himself to try to pick it. Also I would 3d print this in metal bofore that haha
Really Cool design and great concept. As people said earlier, it looks like oversetting the pins would be a weakness in this current design - however, I think if you made the middle cylinder hold 3 ballbearings instead of 2, this no longer becomes a problem (as you cannot lift 3 bearings and still allow the 2 cylinders to slide against each other) - the problem then becomes scaling this up to allow for more than binary pins.
Either way, you would still need a special tool to be able to overset 4 rows of pins all at once, though I dont think that's an insurmountable challenge either.
Love the concept either way, I'd love to see a 2.0 design, or even just other contraptions you've worked on!
As I understand it, the typical attack against these sorts of two-stage locks is a precision measurement attack. Like in a normal lock, manufacturing imprecision means that one of the incorrect pins will bind first. You can then use something like a Sputnik pick to vary every position one at a time and discover when the lock turns ever so slightly more. Here's a video using this attack to decode a combination lock: ruclips.net/video/h1MYWwpqH2s/видео.html
I think you could miniaturize your design by using a tubular lock so that the second stage is behind the first stage (deeper into the lock body) rather than surrounding it.
Ah that is a clever attack! Probably would still take quite a while but I think it might work. I did consider the tubular design but it's difficult to fit in enough pins because you need so many.
@@timhutt7051 Could you stack very small key pins to get a base greater than 2? If you have a key pin that's two cuts deep, and the key can have eight cuts, you could then have four of these (that would shear on any cut that's a multiple of two) with this stack pushing on an ordinary key and driver for the second stage. Perhaps the small intermediate key pins would be too flimsy or get clogged with grit after long-term use, though.
@@davvigtu did he answer your question?
@@danpineda4447 I don't think so.
I think you could also do precision decoding with a set of 20-30 "test pattern" keys. Only have a vague hold on the math though so would need help figuring out the optimal test pattern.
Do you have any other examples of 2-stage locks?
You have been blessed by the algorithm, and once your video with LPL comes out I suspect your channel is about to get a lot more interest
I like LPL helped me make good decisions, BUT he won't feature anything he can't pick. I can say from experience if you send something he cant pick especially mainstream product he will not feature it , he is either busy or his justification is I can't pick it just yet so I will feature it later. I don’t have an issue with that policy just saying.... only way this lock is going on his channel is if he figures out a way to pick it.
Push up 1 pin stack, push in the inner core, add rotational tension, observe for slight additional rotation then pull the inner core back and check for drag from rotation. If you observe either the additional rotation or additional drag pulling the inner core out then thats your first binder otherwise reset the pins then try the next one until you find the first binding pin. Write it down.
After the first binding pin is found the method changes slightly. Push the inner core in just enough to be able to set the first binding pin without it falling, then look for the next binder by pushing in an additional stack. Push the inner core in look for even more rotation or drag pulling out. If there is no additional rotation or drag pulling the inner core out, completely reset the pins then restart this portion setting the first binder again and attempting with another stack. When you find the next one write it down then start looking for the next binder with the first two set. Repeat until unlocked.
It may be a little slow but since the bitting is binary, not only should you eventually pick it open but as a result you should also have to key completely decoded to be able to cut your own for future use.
This is based on using the mechanism in back that prevents the outer core from turning unless the inner core is pushed in for feedback instead of the sudden movement and click from pins being set while tensioned in standard locks. The drag would be from it lining up less and less as binding pins that it catches on first are no longer blocking it allowing the core to rotate slightly further. All manufacturing has tollerences and some pins will always bind before others due to that. Thats more important to single pin picking than being able to consistantly tension it while you pick.
Would love to have a copy of this to test it out, but otherwise this is mostly speculation. Love the lock design though, even if that does turn out to work it would still be pretty pick resistant.
I'm not very good at writing so I'm sorry if that comes accross as word salad :(
I expect the LPL would build a custom tool for pressure and would then pick the 4 sides.
You cannot pick because the only way to rotate the core is to offset it from the pin stack. I think it can be decoded, though.
I'm not sure that would work. You can't apply torque without pushing the centre piece back and once you push it back, you cant access the pins to pick.
He could burn it open
@@bdawg5855 he could blow it up with a nuclear bomb - the point is, he cant open with NON destructive methods.
@@bdawg5855 LPL focuses mostly on non-destructive entry, but with this custom tool Bosnian Bill and I made...
This is a pretty great design. Since no tension can be applied to the pins; raking, ssp-ing, foil attacks, and standard impressioning won't work on it. The only thing that I can see going wrong is either over setting or under setting the pins. But for an attack like that on this lock to work, you would need to find a way to brute force the right combo. And by doing it that way, you have atleast 65440 possibilities (providing that you either go for max or min setting of the pins like binary between 0 and 1111111111111111)
Overall, this seems like a pretty impressive lock
This seems to be possibly prone to oversetting. Pushing all the balls deep enough into their channels (actually just one ball diameter deeper than the key would) will push all the double balls out of the way and the lock will turn. But it may be tricky to execute at all four sides at once and the lock certainly can be made resistant to it.
He said that it only has two possible positions for each bitting. So that makes me think that you couldn't over set them ..
@@stinky817 Oversetting always means pushing pins (or balls in this case) deeper into the pinholes than a key would. Number of possible cut depths on the key is irrelevant.
I actually thought that a lock designed like this would be relatively impossible to pick, glad to see someone else thought of it too
So where do we stand with this one!?!? Is LPL gunna tackle it? Great job on the design man!
Pretty dope lock my man! Good luck with further variations! Can’t wait to see the progress!
still not on LPL's channel
Lovely idea to prevent tensioning. Simple enough to mass produce.
Depending on tolerances. Maybe a slim possibility of it being decodable with 4 binary keys that allow one stack at a time to be high and measuring rotation angle. But I doubt that would be reliable.
Assuming 50/50 change high low, half the pins would already be set. So you only have to set 8.
It's a guess that having 7 in the right spot would allow slightly more rotation and so could he measured.
You gotta send it to LPL!
he's gotta make it out of metal 1st lol 😆
The cross lock makes it more difficult to pick. But unlike a key, which may bind when inserted the wrong way, a lock picker will not be using a key. Instead they'll use tension and a smaller lock pick tool. So they'll have access to all the ball bearing and driver pins.
I'm not an expert, but as long as there's some mechanism (key) being used to unlock a lock, there will always be a way to simulate that key with tools.
Bro its been two years, did he never respond to it? What happened?
I like the thought put into this. That is quite a creative design. Nice job.
Did LP ever reply or communicate a successful breach of the prototype?
Amazing lock Tim, loved your design!
Sounds like you just threw down the gauntlet, especially since you did the intro in LPL's style!
I have a method that I believe would pick the lock you show in your animation. There seems to be a flaw that could be easily fixed. Your design allows pins to be set to "position 0" and "position 1" with the key. With 4 special comb shaped tools along with a central tapered rod tool, you could set all pins to "position 2" and the lock would open. You can prevent this by limiting pin travel and/or placing some double height pins (like the shear line ones) at the bottom of the stack.
Great work though. This is a super elegant and simple solution that I think shows a lot of potential.
That wouldn't work, in the animation the brass balls are stuck toghter, setting them all to 2 won't open it
THIS IS THE LOCK PICKING LAWYER
This would be a legendary battle vs LPL. Please notify us if LPL have released video about picking your lock.
Congrats on the recommended
Ah I was wondering why there were suddenly loads more comments.
@@timhutt7051 yes its on recommends i may subscribe on both my devices is you reply oh and that lock is amazing 🇬🇧👍🔒
It makes such a satisfying noise when you fiddle with it omg
I think your channel is about to blow up. Good luck man
Very cool concept and great demonstration. Have you had any thoughts about selling the 3D printed version?
I'll probably just give it away if people are interested, though it could do with a bit of improvement in a few areas first!
@@timhutt7051 this is a very cool project my man. Thanks for showing it off!
Well if and when you're ready, I'd love to have one for my collection. But I wouldn't feel right to not give you something for your time. Please keep me in mind if you ever do decide to make them available👍
@@timhutt7051 I love the idea of open sourcing this. We could see a rapid and massive improvement in lock security in a very short period of time. Not to mention the rapid improvements and modifications that would occur.
You seem to be a genius, and are definitely deserving of reward for putting in so much hard work to manifest such an elegant design. There is still plenty of money to be made in building a supply chain for physical products without having to try to withhold the IP of that product.
I wish you great success and have a great deal of respect for your desire to share this openly with the world! Keep up the good work 👍
@@timhutt7051 Interested? Of course interested. Such a lock would be very cool to add to a collection. Of course we all want to see you send one off to LPL just to see what he would make of it. He was willing to admit defeat on the Bowley though people have managed to pick that one with a rare bit of skills and tools.
I think if there is enough space to push the ball bearings in by the length of two balls, then you could bypass the mechanism by pushing all the double pins out of the middle cylinder. Since the balls require springs to overcome gravity, the springs will have to be perfectly fitted for each lock to prevent them from being pushed back too far, which would make it expensive to produce. A high price tag is definitely worth the added pick resistance however.
Any update on LPL's taking this?
instead of applying tension by turning you can do it by pushing the cylinder inward and get the pins to bind that way.
Exactly. In the animation showing 8 of the 16 pin stacks, 6/8 are already set and the other two would act like spools, having to find the right order so set all the unset pins would be all. because all are identical spools, it would be easy to immediatelly chwck which stacks are set and which need to be raised. if you dont want to bother trying a lot of different orders to set, you could just inset a ball bearing i each unset stack and fix it with tape. and done. from there it just opens by pushing and turning.
Someone check on LPL he still aint pick this one XD
Mention this challenge to him in his comments section and see how fast you are blocked. Thats how LPL is dealing with this
@@ethics3 really?
@@Zachaboom Go ahead and try it yourself
@@ethics3 damn
it's funny because i have been dreaming about designing an unpickable lock ever sinece i saw Shawn from Stuff Made Here make his lock (although I would probably never actually have sat my ass down to do so) The design i had in mind and have been dreaming about was actually exactly along the lines of what you just made here with binary pins but my issue was to fit them all because i thought you would need at least 10-16 of them to have a descent security. I see you have been smarter than me and arranged them nicely in quarters. Didn't think of that, nice job. I'm so happy to see someone had the same ideas and actually put the effort into making it work.
any updates here?
This is a cool design, just hope the tolorenses are tight enough to not be jigle- able, else LPL would need to grow another 2 arms to do it. Adding security pins will probably add to the compexity further. Hoping for a vid from him, this is good stuff. Also your animations are top quality, this was a pleasure to watch.
I assume you already thought about this but the video didn't mention it explicitly: are the stacks + springs solid enough that you cannot overlift all the stacks two balls worth?
Exactly what came to my mind after watching the working principle. Interresting design though
One could also fix this my adding a thinner metal pin inside the spring to limit the compression even it it is possible
@@jackaw1197 The problem with thin metal things is that they are vulnerable to bending by brute force attack. But yeah, there're multiple ways to fix the problem. For example, if the spring stack can be compressed to much, just add a regular pin of suitable length in the stack. That cannot be bent and it will reduce the available space for the compression.
It seems to me that you wouldn't be able to hold the balls at that height unless you had a pick on every pin stack as you tried turning because there is an extra ball height in the inner core