He is not invisible, he is slowly becoming one with the books. The days are not far when the tales of Daniel Greene will be told as a man, for then he will not be but a presence.
"Why do YAs all have shoehorned underdeveloped romances" You might have heard of this thing that was very nearly as popular as Harry Potter that also shaped the genre called uh...Twilight?
i honestly find it quite shocking Daniel never brought up Twilight. Yes Harry Potter kicked off middle grade/YA HOWEVER i can strongly say that YA was shaped way more by Twilight than it was HP in terms of what tropes and things are common in YA.
I think it wasn't the Twilight books that shaped the genre as much as the movies. I don't think it had the hype that Harry Potter books had, regardless of the movies.
As someone who reads a lot of YA and has begun to read more Adult, I feel that YA is written to be read fast so that you read more. I find myself flying through YA and moving on to the next. Adult has me taking my time and really delving into the story. Anyone else agree?
That's actually one of the reasons why I read YA the most. I genuinely do not have the time to read slower-paced books and audiobook format is just not for me at the moment so YA allows me to indulge in reading and actually finishing the book.
I think it depends on the author. In my experience I can fly through Mary Downing Hahn, James Patterson, and Neil Shusterman books. But then there’s people like Philip Reeves and Brandon Sanderson who, for me at least, are much slower reads. This is the same for non-YA books, I’m a huge Stephen King fan mainly because his books, for me, are really easy to read.
Let’s be honest, that how most young teen dating works. I remember some of my dating history and there was very little there besides “ooh, he’s hot and we have one or two things in common”.
@@cybersketcher1130 Percy Jackson was originally aimed at children and is listed as Children's Lit. So, not YA. The first two quartets in the Emelan series also don't have kids falling in love because they are children's books (though the second quartet straddles the children/ya divide). The third book, though, has romance as an important plot element because the books are aimed at a more adult audience. A good subversion would be Protector of the Small. Or Devil on my Back.
I'm terribly disappointed in this video, Daniel. Every time you asked "why," you had the opportunity to say, "... A." You dropped the ball EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. For shame, sir!
@@MRuby-qb9bd Hank's book is actually considered an adult book. Or at least that's what Hank considers it and that's how I've seen it shelved in bookstores.
@@baileym3060 Oh, I guess I just assumed based on what I have heard and who I have seen reading but it would make sense the audience would crossover for that. I haven't read it myself.
As a Non-native speaker, reading English YA in my teens actually really helped me and nowadays I only read English literature and my studies are entirely in English. As much as the writing might be simplified, it's a really great way to join the English literary world.
I've had sort of a similar experience! I'm from Sweden and am currently trying to wrap my head around more of the classical english literature(the brontë sisters etc), but a couple of years ago, in my early teens, english YA was all I read! (wich also made me quite tired of the genre...)
Similar experience here! My library had a lot of YA novels and so my curious brain went "eh, why not?" YA helped me grow my vocabulary. There was also a book I read that I can't remember the title, it was about if Shakespeare had a sister and thus my curiosity lead me to start reading many Shakespeare playwrights like: Othello and Henry the V. Now, I love classics and I still read YA novels that I find interesting. It was kind of a stepping stone for me and I have an appreciation for it.
Yeah, same here. As non-native English speaker YA is a bit easier to read to work up vocabulary and speed in reading. I started with Harry Potter in English, since I'd read them in Swedish first and then I continued reading English versions of books I've read before, like Wheel of Time until nowadays I go straight for the English version.
In 11th and 12th grade in Germany, I knew a girl who basically spoke better English than most native speakers, simply by reading (mostly?) English YA books. I say "better" because she combined the vocabulary and experience she learned from the books, with the formal grammar lessons learned in English class. (When most native speakers talk, they aren't thinking about the difference between "I've gone home already" and "I went home already". Not a very subtle example, but I promise you there are grammatically incorrect things native speakers say without even realizing it.) She also had a little digital dictionary device (since phones weren't allowed to be used at school) to help her get pronunciations right. She'd never even been to an English speaking country; not even on a short vacation. I grew up in an English speaking country, and her English was certainly better than mine. XD
I really agree with the romance thing - I have nothing against it but just like you've mentioned - when it's just a box to tick and it has no real substance then I don't see the necessity of it appearing in the story. GIVE US FRIENDSHIPS TOO.
I actually love romances and even read a lot of romance novels. For this very reason, I agree that romances need to be well done and take the time to develop. Give me all that good stuff!
I feel like not everybody needs to end up with someone, maybe our protagonists can have a nice well developed angsty (love me some angst) but not dramatic romance throughout the series , but lets not make it a huge part of it, just moments to make ur heart excited. It really is tricky to deal with romance, since it gets boring easily, especially if theyre paired too fast or if its given too much focus. I prefer the romance aspect to help the person grow instead of complicating matters for them when they have so much to deal with already. Just me maybe
Daniel: “If you treat females like they’re human beings, suddenly you’re writing good female characters, who would have thought?” Me: (applause) THANK YOU DANIEL
@@davidbowles7281 Not really he has recognized that wheel of time's female characters are not as good as they could be and some are even bad, he only has said they are not as bad as people say. It's ok to be a fan of something and also recognize its flaws.
@@oscarchavezavellan2738 I don't really get that vibe from him. Jordan's depiction of women ALONE keeps it out of my top 5 fantasy series. This guy has it at #1? Seems like to me that's tacit approval. "Not as bad as people say" No, they're worse. I'm a fan of a lot of movies and series that I would never contemplate putting at #1. I guess that's my point.
@@davidbowles7281 Well, you have to take in account that he grew up with the series. And was so obsessed with it that he couldn't read anything else for a decade (check his video "post series depression" where he talks about that). I think that's good, having something you like on your top knowing that not everyone can enjoy it, as long as you are not blind of the flaws of your favourite thing you have all the right to like it as much as you want. It's weird what you said, I have heard a lot of mix of opinions about wheel of time's female characters, some people say they are terrible, some others say they are good, and there is always the one who think they are brilliant. Women normally agree they are not and ideal female respresentation, but the great majority agreed that they are not terrible (you can check reviews if you say I'm generalizing without providing examples, I'm sure there are bunch that can prove that those mix opinions exist). See? People have their opinions, you have yours, even your favourite things has flaws, because it's made by humans. I guess what I'm trying to say is do not try to force your opinions stating them as facts in other people's mind.
As maybe an answer about the over-inclusion of romance into books that otherwise shouldn't need it: Someone I know is currently shopping a YA fantasy (that has no romance in it) around to publishers and the overwhelming consensus is "needs more romance, what about pairing X character with Y character?" So it could be that it's not always the fault of YA authors for including unnecessary or uninspired romances. A lot of publishers seem to think it's necessary, perhaps after seeing the success of very romance-focused books in the YA genre-not-genre (SJM, I'm looking at you)
If you haven't already, tell them to never concede to the demands of "suits". Never violate your creative image with "popularity" centered additions and subtractions. Just keep looking or try and convince one of them I guess. I hope they find success though! Can you share the title?
@@Katyayay I've found that the "romantic plot tumor" holds back authors from fully exploring the settings and story threads that would elevate their writing. Interestingly, Harry Potter largely avoids this.
It's 2 years late, but as someone who does primarily read YA fantasy-supernatural and romance, I read it because it goes down easy. A lot of it is just my power fantasy and escapism, so I'm not asking to be challenged. If I want something more substantial, yeah I'll pick up a more adult fantasy or science fiction novel. But when I'm tired and want to be comforted, or just want to befriend or obsess over a nice character, it's hard to beat YA fantasy.
So its like McDonalds basically? You dont wanna cook, and you dont wanna wait for your friggin food to arrive you just want something to put in your Belly? No offense, its just what it sounds to me.
Me too. It is pleasant escapism. I have enough dark shit in my life that I don't want it in my relaxation time. I want to escape and have fun. Nothing wrong with that. Not everything has to be "edgy".
Just curious, how would you describe "challenging" when it comes to a narrative? Can you think of an example? (Just curious because I am researching how readers understand the books they read)
@@FirstCommandmentRigorist Maybe things like Dune, the Ender Quartet, Neuromancer or stuff by Phillip K Dick? It's the sort of books that make you stop and think about what you've read, and put an effort into understanding each character to understand the subtext. They also present interesting ideas, either new or familiar but in a different way to most.
The worst publishing marketing mistake (that I’ve seen personally) is to The Raven Cycle series. The blurb in book 1 only focuses on the “romance” when that’s a very small piece of the book. Maggie Stiefvater did a really great job of creating a very magical story and taking you on this journey with the characters, her writing style is really interesting too.
True i thought its was another YA romance fantasy and instead was more like YA Magical Realism based of friendship. And Maggie have that wrtitting style that its different and I love it.
Oh, yes! They really did those books dirty with the marketing. The characters are super interesting and layered and the concept of found family is very proeminent. It also deals with very dark subjects we don't see much in YA. Stiefvater's writing style is very fresh and reads like something magical. The Raven Boys being marketed as a forbidden love story is just very off the mark. I was pleasantly surprised when I read the first book and then even more with book 2, 3 and 4.
Thanks for saying this, have heard a lot of good things about the book but couldn't get myself up to another shallow YA romance. Now I'll probably give it a shot.
I distinctly remember feeling absolutely immersed in Riordan’s world every time I sat down to read one of his books growing up (The Red Pyramid especially). I miss that feeling and hope to be able find that again, but I’m not sure where to start now that I’m so far removed from the YA world after spending 4 years in university and not having the time to read for fun.
I’m nearly 30 and really enjoy Riordan’s books because I find mythology fascinating. That’s not limited to YA books, either. I’ve got a few encyclopedias, as well.
Same, I don’t think anything will ever top the PJO and HoO books for me, not necessarily on a craft or prose level, but just as my favorite set of stories I’ve experienced. Fun, witty, rich with originality, endearing, thought provoking, just excellent books to go through life with.
I'm currently reading the series now and I've gotten SOO annoyed at some stuff and I'm the target demographic. I can't imagine how much HE will get frustrated with these book XD
I think there’s this weird misconception that YA readers never question YA at all, when we’re actually discussing a lot of these same problems all the time! Also that people can only read one genre.... because personally I just read the books I’m interested in, regardless of their genre/age category! Best prose in YA fantasy has to be Maggie Stiefvater’s Raven Cycle, or anything by Laini Taylor. Both have beautifully whimsical and distinct styles that really stand out from the rest.
Maggie Stiefvater blew me away with the Raven Cycle and the Scorpio Races, especially after I read her mediocre shiver series. She set the eerie, unsettling tone of the story masterfully with her prose and manages to write such depth in her characters. Laini Taylor also is a master storyteller with very rich worlds, three dimensional characters and the skill to weave together compelling story arcs.
As a would-be author myself, I once wrote a draft of a novel that could be considered YA since the protagonist was 16 years old. One editor told me that I NEEDED to add a romance to the story. I argued that it made no sense to the story. It was suggested by another that I read the Harry Potter books so that I could understand "how" to write a YA. I let her know, in no uncertain terms, that JK Rowling does just fine on her own and the world doesn't need yet another author trying to be her. Marketing over substance? OH yeah!
laini taylor's work, while all featuring romance to some degree, have some of the most whimsical writing i've personally encountered. and unique worlds, imo
@Bella Bells yeah I actually haven't finished Daughter of Smoke and Bone because it was SOOO focused on a romance that I didn't care about and if felt like there was mystery and plot but it was very slow. That being said Strange the Dreamer is one of my favorite books I've ever read! (Im 16 too btw)
@@sammie9088 honestly same. i read daughter of smoke and bone and had the same experience so i didn't continue with the series. I'm hoping to like strange the dreamer more
same here. I don't know why I read so much YA fantasy when it just makes me want to hit my head against the wall a lot of the time lol. There's just something about YA fantasy that keeps bringing me back
V.E.Schwab has written adult and YA fantasy, which I both loved. Her writing remains consistent through both genres imo with the only difference being more self-discovery themes in the YA ones.
Hunger Games: Mockingjay definitely has legitimate darkness to it. The pacing of the book felt terrible, however Collins didn’t back down from turning Katniss down a darker path. She clearly never cares about fighting for the good guys and her trust in any authority is definitely shattered. I mean for a large part of the book she is a morphine addict, the only thing that allows her to fight the addiction is her all consuming hate of the capital and her fear for her boy toy. I feel like even though she is clearly the protagonist, Katniss is no where even close to the hero of the books
I actually understood her addiction differently. I understood it as driven by her loss of her romantic interest. This book ruined the series for me. I felt like Katniss was such a strong character that her escapism just felt forced and out of character. And especially since I saw it directly tied to a man, it just was a waste.
elumbra Looking back I was a bit harsh in my comment. I just think the romance wasn’t that well done and it bothers me that Katniss never really explores her thoughts on morality, but really just reacts to things. I think her addiction to morphine really is a classic I got in the hospital and got addicted type thing, complicated by the recent loss of the person she cares about and her ptsd.
@@elumbra I didn't see that coming out romance at all. I did not enjoy Mockingjay (I loved Hunger Games) but I thought its strongest quality was it was almost a case study on PTSD. The amount of exploration the author did into trauma victims i.e.Katniss was honestly staggering. It was quite spot on. I so wish the writing had been better as that combined with the exploration of trauma and PTSD would have made it one of the best books I've read. I thought the morphine addiction was a response to her trauma. And no her trauma was not soley based on Peeta. Although relational trauma is a very real thing, that was only part of it in this case. The Hunger Games, her killing people, the constant fear she grew with her whole life, losing her father, essentially losing her mother, foregoing a childhood to take care of her mother, threat of death in and out of the games....and then in the games AGAIN. All this was trauma and as a young woman and Katniss was not able to cope with it, and honestly who would?! To say this came solely out of losing Peeta, just no. There was so much in here to cascade traumatic events in Katniss life. I don't think her response means she is not strong. I really mean it when I say who could have responded to all that in a productive way? It is easy for us to judge her actions from our "normal" life where we had a childhood and did not have to face constant threat of death and forced to kill others to survive. From our standing how can we say Katniss was "weak" to turn to addiction to escape? She was a trauma victim and the book explored that extremely well...too bad the rest of it was poor.
@@mattpfarr6129 for me it wasn't the PTSD or the addiction that bothered me so much as what I saw as the instigating factor. I saw her character change happen simultaneously with Peeta's capture and to me felt like the instigating factor. Had it been her sisters death it would have made a lot more sense to me. Lastly, as I stated before, it just felt forced. Other books have done a better job of showing addiction. The ancillary series being the one that comes to mind the most.
@@elumbra , Katniss has no real romantic interest. There are forced on her by circumstances. If the writer has respected her character, she would have end up alone. She's very close to asexual, in essence. And yes of course, what defines her is her ptsd. She's a classical study of the condition, and pretty well done.l
Definitely agree with you that YA has 'aged up' with its readers over the years. As a teacher working with12/13 year olds, around 15 years ago there was a range of YA books (what I'd now call teenage fiction) that I could recommend to them. These would be heavier than middle grade content-wise and usually involve teenage protagonists, dealing with hormones and first attempts at romance, higher stakes and characters dying, exploring these emotions and addressing some real life issues (not always all of these in the same book!) Nowadays, I struggle to find appropriate content for 12/13 year old readers. Many of the books classed as YA now tend to have explicit content that I don't feel comfortable recommending. Feels like there's a gap in the market for this age group.
I'm not someone who works with kids, but as someone who was well-read from a young age, I have to agree with this. I have a lot of friends my age and older with kids that are getting older and I desperately want to see them grow up as readers with an appreciation for great stories and beautiful prose, but unfortunately, most of the popular books I see targeting their age demographics these days aren't even close to recommendable due to content. In the end, I usually fall back on recommending the books I grew up reading (Narnia, LotR and the Hobbit, classics in general), but I do wish there were more "new and exciting" books I could point them towards, similarly to how Harry Potter functioned as a gateway into reading for kids who grew up when it was still coming out. (And I say that as someone who isn't a fan of Harry Potter, lol).
Agreed - I want to get my nephew into reading and just don’t know what to start him on. My YA reading recently would all be stuff I wouldn’t give him. He is 12 so any suggestions would be appreciated !
@@mastersal4644 Depends what genres he's into. Here's some ideas that bridge the middle grade/YA gap. Alex Rider Series by Anthony Horowitz. 14 year old spy. Adventure, mystery, fast cars, gadgets and explosions. Skulduggery Pleasant Series by Derek Landy. Main character Stephanie teams up with a skeleton detective to solve crimes and use magic. Think she's about 12 at the start of the series. 13 books later she's around 25! Old Kingdom series by Garth Nix. Sabriel returns to the Old Kingdom to search for her missing father. A place where technology doesn't work and people rely on charter magic. Sabriel must learn to wield the Abhorsens bells and control the dead brought back to life by evil necromancers. Mortal Engines Quartet by Phillip Reeve. Far in the distance future, cities have mobilised. They roll around the land on wheels seeking smaller cities to prey on scavenge for parts. Also by Phillip Reeve the Railhead trilogy. Set in the future, intergalactic trains travel at light speeds between different worlds. Follows the adventures of Zen, a petty thief, who is contacted to steal an artefact from the royal train leading to disastrous consequences. Bartimaeus Trilogy by Jonathan Stroud. Young magician Nathaniel Simmons a centuries old djinni, Bartimaeus. Full of political intrigue, plots, betrayals and dangerous magic. Sorry for the overload of recommendations. In this lockdown, I'm missing recommending books to my students so making up for it here!
As a teen librarian I’m having the same issues! YA fantasy has sort of stepped in as a stop gap for the lack of fantasy written by and for women in adult, but it’s effectively pushed teens - especially younger teens - out of YA. I have so many readers excited to be in middle school and read from the teen section, but there just isn’t a lot meant for them and it makes me sad.
Well developed YA romance? Percy Jackson and Annabeth Chase. Started out as acquaintances, grudgingly developed a friendship after gaining respect for one another as they had to work together, a bond that was strengthened by trusting and relying on each other in the midst of life and death situations, as well as complexities of life in general. They came to count on one another, for support, and after five books, finally got together once romantic feelings had developed organically and had been hinted at for two, maybe even three of the books. There’s mutual respect, strengths and weaknesses that compliment one another, trust, encouragement, respected boundaries, honesty and no melodrama whatsoever. Their relationship is a source of stability and strength once the second series takes a more mature tone with higher stakes. Probably the healthiest relationship I’ve seen in YA. Wish more were written like it. (I’m aware PJO is middle grade, but their relationship is just as prevalent and developed in the subsequent YA series.)
It was probably based off the relationship between Rick Riordan and his wife’s, so that’s why it feels more realistic than compared to most of the other YA romances.
As a non-native English speaker, YA was my gateway to fantasy, since it's much more digestible than adult fantasy and I enjoyed them a lottt. It's just the ongoing trend in YA is not my cup of tea anymore so I have been straying away further from that genre these last five year-ish. If u guys hv amazing YA books you want to recommend I'd love to jump back to the genre. Side note: hell I was born in 94 too and I pay my own taxes alrd so who ure calling kids now?
Same! It is definitely easier to ignore average prose when the language itself is already not 100% familiar to you and common words sound kind of exotic
@@CheshireSmile98 yesss. I think reading heavy prose right off the bat when you just start reading in English would kill much of your enjoyment early on. I have many friends who quit reading or struggling to keep reading as habit bcs of it.
Me too! I started out with things like the lunar chronicles and throne of glass, when I was around 14 and I don't think I would be able to fully comprehend what I read now without it. With those series it also wasn't as important if missed or didn't understand some aspects. Now when I go back I notice so many things that just went over my head in the past, but it didn't really matter for the story overall^^
This may be a weird point but I occasionally read YA and one of the main reasons is its simplicity and predictability. I also like how the first book is usually ultra simple but the sequels start getting more and more complex, never too much mind you. Sometimes I just want to read something easy to digest and comfortable. Last 3 YA I read were the maze runner series, hunger games and more recently throne of glass. Of course now I'm deep into the wheel of time for thr first time but I might be reading something simple again after it.
I think the Lumatere Chronicles is a good example of this. First book is pretty simple and straightforward but second and third get a little more complex, not too much of course, but yeah.
The "Six of Crows" duology is what lured me back into YA after walking away in complete disgust and frustration. It was a trap of horrifying proportions. Never again.
I hated Six of Crows, personally. I read it, I read Red Rising. I think YA fantasy is kind of what put me off fantasy in general. I’ve been reading more fantasy lately and it’s definitely not my favorite, but I enjoy it.
@@wham1984 I loved the duology; read the first book 7 times in two years. But I know I connected to it because of previous trauma. It's definitely not for everyone, and that is okay!
I don’t really like YA romances anymore either. Yet I think YA books were the first place I ever saw anything about LGBT+ relationships. Especially about characters my age. During the mid 00’s and early 10’s most media with LGBT+ characters focused on adults.
Totally agree! Especially with the Latest Rick Ryordan/Cassandra Clare books. Yes, their writing is great, their stories are epic...but seeing lgbt+ teens like me really brings me a lot of joy to keep on readind their work.
l remember looking through old books published by Vandecourt or Valencourt(l don’t remember ;-;)) and they actually have some books with lgbt+ content. they’re a bit older, so l’m curious how they compare to such books published today.
I'm actually doing this with my fantasy series. It's currently in outline stage but my protagonist will be LGBT+. I'm currently writing a serial with an LGBT+ main character too which can be found online. I've wanted more fantsies like this so I'm trying to write my own lol.
Personally my biggest gripe with YA books is primarily the protagonists. At least from my experience the vast majority of them seem to be purposefully made bland, presumably for the sake of 'self-inserts. You can kinda see that with Harry potter himself and it only got worse from there. They never seem to have unique personalities and quirks, they are just the every-man/woman people can identify with. This also makes it hard to get satisfying character development for them as well. Side characters almost always have more personality than the protagonists and that is generally what kills these stories for me. I read to learn about and follow characters and their development and I just don't get that from YA that much, Not saying that all of those books are bad, but that they generally don't provide what I'm looking for.
Exactly! We're so obsessed with "relatable" that we forget we're supposed to learn from the stories of people who are not like us, not be presented with an adventure that has a cut-out to stick our face in.
@@jessicawurm23 Pretty much, yeah. The thing is, I get people wanting to insert themselves into fantastical adventures and what have you, imagining what it would be like to be the hero and so on. All of that is fine. But there seem to be a lot of common issues when authors cater to that mindset. The other characters in the story almost always immediately like the protagonist because anything else could reflect badly on the reader. For the same reason the protagonist can't have too many character flaws to overcome so they tend to skip large parts of the heroes journey which in turn makes the story less satisfying. This is obviously an oversimplification and I'm not saying that all of YA is like that, but it is usually this or things like this that that has put me off the genre
As for romance in YA, I feel like that's sort of how "romance" works sometimes when you're a teenager. "We're friends! Oh, we're boy and girl? That must mean we're in love now."
That is an excellent point and I’ve never thought about if from that perspective. Thinking back to my own high school years, it absolutely was like that on more than one occasion. It still mildly annoys me (rarely stops me, YA fantasy is one of my favorite things to read) but it does make a lot of sense
THANK YOU for mentioning the bad prose!!! I've tried to talk about this with other people so many times, and they always were "no, it's not that bad". Being non-native English speaker notwithstanding I really can tell good prose from bad prose. And YA so many times got it bad. But what's mostly frustrating is that books that have ACTUAL good prose (like The Bone Witch, although it has many other limitations you mentioned), world setting, character setting and growth, are being labelled as BORING and looked down upon. That's probably the saddest thing I've seen in the community.
Yep. It is common to hear "experts" on RUclips and other sites declare anything but a string of action scenes with characters from the same comic books as "boring info dumps." World building and character growth are difficult to write. It is not fashionable to include these elements of great fiction.
OKAY I love the Bone Witch and I never see anyone talk about and I get so confused? Like the writing is so beautiful despite it being firmly entrenched in the YA restrictions, which isn’t always bad if you are looking for a more simple read.
I was always have a soft spot for YA as it was my first intro to fantasy, as your first video pointed out with Harry Potter. That said, I’ve been trying to read more adult fantasy than YA lately. Thanks to your videos, I’ve been accomplishing that, much to my wife’s chagrin (lots of dollars been spent)
Omg, you're so right about the romance -_-. I'm a girl, and that's the main reason I don't read YA that much; I don't NEED freacking romance everywhere. I want to read about fantasy, not love triangles! It's driving me insane
I agree! I get tired of the plot seemingly to be around only the romance part, and the romance a huge part. It’s exhausting, so I’ve been reading more adult because it’s often less cliche!
I've noticed that the only romantic relationships in YA that feel justified are the ones that don't fully come together until the end of the story (and not because a love triangle was involved). YA has grown up in some ways, but the expression of love can be quite juvenile. Too much melodrama for someone in their mid-twenties, who has experienced love in a more nuanced fashion. Also, I think too many people believe that two people of the opposite sex could never remain just friends over a prolonged period of exposure to each other. In some cases, forced romance in YA books could be the result of the author being uncertain of how to handle friendship with the opposite sex. In others, it provides a nice buffer for a dull plot.
Maggie's prose is very good but that's rarity in modern ya. I think the perfect example of john is saying is Cassandra clare. I mean, some of her passages are gold but mostly it's just sooo watered down. Sometimes, I honestly confuse the writing styles employed by her and stephanie meyers. Again, this could be just common in the ya I've read but it's something I've done being seen too often in mainstream ya at least. The opposite of this for me is leigh bardugo cuz even though I consider her to either very hot and cold , the one thing I've always find unique about her is that her prose is very well balanced.
I don’t think the YA “genre” came into prominence until Twilight. I don’t think you’re necessarily wrong about Harry Potter being the spearhead of the genre but Harry Potter was often regarded as Children/Middle Grade in the bookstores and libraries I went to
While yes Harry Potter series is labelled as children's book but you'd be surprised to see how many adult fans we have in HP fandom. The first 3 HP books are definitely aimed towards pre-teens but it gets darker from the fourth book onwards hence venturing into the "YA" sub-genre. I think HP really did popularize or introduce YA to mainstream because suddenly we started seeing similiar stories with protagonist who's the "chosen one" to fight against the evil. While I must say, Twilight helped in popularising the romantic side of the YA (especially the love triangle part). Although Harry Potter is regarded as children's book, most of the readers of the book are mostly in their 20s.
This is a good point. I see Harry Potter as the genesis of the modern form of the genre, but Twilight is where it came into its own, and a perfect example of the genre growing up with HP fans. For hardcore YA writers, Twlight and Hunger Games seem to be the templates most authors follow.
To be fair, the awkward pointless romance plots with zero chemistry are pretty dominant everywhere. Not many authors can write good romance and make it feel like it doesn't step on the main plot -well renowned fantasy authors included. It's just YA is known for beeing cheesy and it does treat romance like a box tick, but I wouldn't say this is a problem just in YA. About the prose... yeah, its diggestible and easy, I 100% aggre, but as someone who does enjoy YA I really don't mind that it is simple (simple, not bad!) as longs as it manages to deliver interesting stories, themes and emotions. The morale limitations on characters though I feel like it's totally a matter of personal taste, which is totally fine. There are some morally grey characters in many YA, just not hardcore grimdark twisted morally grey characters. I don't think it's because of editorial limitations, just that fans are not generally into that sort of thing. In my experience YA tends to be much more lighthearted and hopeful than (most current) adult fantasy. Again, I just personally think that point is a matter of taste. Anyways, I liked both videos a lot even though I don't necessarily aggree with a lot of it but it was pretty interesting to hear form someone so well read and whose opinion I usually agree. I hope to see some more videos up of this kind in the future!
I personally like to read characcter with fatal flaws, like pride or bad tempers, I think when Dan was talking about Protagonists limitations, that's what he's talking about. You can't repeatedly describe a character has "dark" and "edgy" without reason.
@@cutecobra9696 just finished reading Eliza and her monsters. Contemporary YA. Eliza has a terrible temper and she treats everyone like garbage. She's also a liar, she overworks herself and has some serious self esteem problems. It's an extremely good example of written teenage angst that feels dark and real and not like "that X-Men people" he mentions, cause it's not aesthetic focused or for shock value. Great portrayal of mental health problems too. Just an example at the top of my head.
Tamora Pierce. Tamora Pierce. Tamora Piiiiiierce! :D She's been writing in the same universe since the 80s, and you can definitely watch her style evolve as the YA category does. But even within the "limitations" of YA, she does a fantastic job of exploring complex themes and characters, and a lot of that dark side of people and society. I just. Adore her. So if you're looking for a gem, I would suggest her.
@@LeeAnnC PotS is probably my favorite series from her. Kel is everything I love in a hero, and all without the aid of magic. Just her mind, body, and heart, and a whole lot of discipline!
Wild Magic was the first book of hers I read, way back in the sixth grade. Absolutely love her, and I love how later installments, such as the Trickster's Duology and the Bekka Cooper trilogy, grow up with the reader.
This remind me of something an older friend said years ago: "I'm looking forward to when I got to my mid-thirties, because once a nerd becomes older that 30-years-old, the nerd-geek-otaku-gamer comunity start to treat all their oppinions like words of wisdom from a respectable elder... No matter how stupid those opinions really are"
To be fair to YA, most modern adult fiction has the same issues: oversimplified writing, forced romance, adhering very closely to tropes that are popular, over cautious and stilted character development, telling the reader what to think and feel in a condescending way. The difference is, when an author chooses not to do these things they are not pushed into another genre because there is nowhere to go.
I'm 64 and an avid reader since i was 8 - you do a great job Dan. I like your balanced approach and your insights and I've learnt a lot from your work as well.
My problem with the YA genre comes from more of a bookseller problem. I was constantly trying to juggle the expectation of kids not wanting to read "kids book" like Percy Jackson because they're in the kids section and not wanting romance, while also juggling the parent's expectation of what content they're comfortable with the child reading. Especially if they have a young child with a high reading level and the schools are telling them they have to read at a certain level but not giving them a list of book.
I think the point of the romances in wheel of time was to show that when you’re on the seat of power, you don’t always get what you want, which is why so many of them were unwanted and uncomfortable.
I'm always reading a few books at once; I'm usually reading a celebrated literary classic AND a YA book at the same time. It's sort of like watching a Criterion film and then following it up with a sitcom. Just gives the brain a break, haha.
I'm a teen librarian and spend a lot of time thinking about this. From a reading perspective, I'm an adult woman who wants to read adult fantasy written by and for women in addition to the awesome fantasy I grew up on and continue to read written primarily by men. From a professional standpoint, I'm a teen librarian beyond frustrated that publishers marketing aged-up YA to adult women has pushed teens out of YA. I read about 200 YA books a year as part of my job, and I also read every professional and review publication out there, paying a lot of attention to trends in publishing. While I agree with many of your points made here, I think this topic is impossible to discuss without fully diving into the fact that the majority of adult YA readers are female, and that YA fantasy has become a stopgap of sorts to make up for the lack of books written by women in adult fantasy. This is a problem that I hope becomes a non-issue - there has been a rise in female authorship in adult fantasy over the past few years and hopefully in 10 years this is a moot point. I was disappointed that your suggestion for a well written female protagonist was a book written by a man - it sort of highlights the problem, no? Not to say men can't write awesome female protagonists, but that as a woman I also want female voices writing my female characters in addition to those written by men. If you look at the books that are most popular right now in YA fantasy, you see a variety of authors from a variety of ethnicities and cultural backgrounds, including LGBTQ+ authors and characters. While there are standout adult fantasies written by non-white women - The Poppy War, The Daevabad Trilogy, anything by NK Jemisin - on the whole, adult fantasy is not as diverse as YA and that is a consideration to make when discussing why adults might turn to YA. People - particularly women - who are avid fantasy readers want more than a small handful of diverse choices to pick from. YA tends to change faster than the adult publishing machine, since it is already attuned to the quickly changing interests of teenagers and was better prepared to adapt to the call for diverse books. I know adult publishing is catching up, but it isn't there yet and it is a huge reason why there is such a substantial YA fantasy adult readership. YA is still going to have hallmarks of books targeted for teens, since it's ostensibly still trying to market itself as teen lit - angst, romance, easier to digest prose... but maybe a better understanding of why so many women avidly read YA fantasy despite the flaws could better highlight the disparities in what is marketed to men and women.
I read a lot of female fantasy authors ... but they tend to be authors that have been writing fantasy for a VERY long time. I haven't really found that many new ones coming through that have gripped me in the adult fantasy genre. I love trudi canavan, Sara Douglass, Mercedes Lackey, Anne Macaffrey. Yeah ... you can see the sort of list this is... though the first two are actually Australian Authors which is kinda awesome. I will have to check out those other authors you've mentioned and I have heard Daniel mention Poppy War a few times now so I will need to check that out too! Anyway I do think your point is very accurate. It's all about the way it is marketed and also the time. I find YA books are pushed at me constantly but I have to go searching for adult fantasy. Outside a handful of booktubers if they're interested in fantasy they often are reading YA because they can get through more books at once. It's the rare ones that regularly read Adult fantasy because they often take longer to read.
nubemuffin men rarely succeed at writing female leads well. Women want to read books written by women because they generally do a better at writing their own gender. Simple facts.
@@wildconstantia6073 that's not a very progressive thing of you to say Monique. Would it be fair for me to say that I (as a man) prefer to read books written by men because women rarely succeed at writing male characters? I imagine if I said that I'd be called some nasty names. However, I would never say that because I personally believe that men and women both can write books equally and we should consider the content on the pages instead of the gender of the author. JK Rowling (a woman) wrote the most famous book series of all time with a solely male lead. Robert Jordan wrote the wheel of time which is widely considered to be one of the best fantasy series ever with a large cast of female characters that receive a lot praise for their depth.
for beautiful prose, you can't beat Laini Taylor, particularly Strange the Dreamer. For dark/edgy protagonist and also pretty fantastic prose, Six of Crows by Leigh Bardugo is excellent
Rick Riordans series will always be my favorite. No because did nostalgia but because I think they are genuinely good. I don’t know if YOU would include his writing in the “bad prose” category, but I love it. I’ll use Percy as an example. In the books told fr9m his perspective there are a lot of sarcastic comments, but he’s just acting like a REAL teen. And that sort of comedic element makes it a lot easier for me to read personally. Also for the romance aspect (I’ll use Percy and Annabeth as an example) it’s not just “shoehorned in”, it’s been built up for the MULTIPLE series they have appeared in, and it grows in a realistic way. These are just my thoughts though.
'The Goose Girl' and 'Princess Academy' both by Shannon Hale are really underrated, both books introduced me to the fantasy genre outside of Narnia and both involve great character growth and I still believe they hold up to this day. Please give these books more attention cause they deserve it!!
Princess Academy!!!!!!!! that was the very first book that made me actually interested in reading GOD i havent read it again since i was like 9 years old. i loved it so much as a kid.
YES!!! I never see these books discussed anywhere! I'm not even sure how I found out about them but these books made Shannon Hale one of my favourite authors!
The romance thing is real and its also targeted at kids who dont understand love and think that a crush is love. It appeals to them because that's how kids see people they are attracted to. They have "strong" attractions to them for like 2 weeks, and move onto someone else. None of it means anything, just like it seems not to in the book. Hormones are just out of whack.
My biggest problem with this is that it actually perpetuates the immaturity. Kids read it done this way so they are encouraged to believe that is how love really is. Then they act on it and then authors continue the cycle "because it is realistic".
I would have to recommend the Chaos Walking trilogy by Patrick Ness (which I’m happy to see a lot of other people in the comments recommend) and The Raven Cycle series by Maggie Stiefvater. Both have some of the most beautiful writing I’ve seen in a fantasy ya. For the Raven Cycle, while I liked the Raven Boys, the next book in the series, The Dream Thieves, really establishes the series as one of the greatest in my opinion.
I'm 45. Simply love Chaos Walking trilogy. Didn't even know or noticed it really was YA. Yes they're young protagonists, but the story telling and the writing, the world building, is all very, very mature.
Light. It would probably be a miracle if Daniel Greene will love those. Just saying. I'm a fan of DG since he has only 44,000 subs so I have understood his criteria on what to read and what to DNF.
I really do love this story, but I think the overall prose is fairly simple. It’s very stylistic - for sure! - but I don’t think it’s exceedingly complex.
@@deanryanmartin So you've read both books? I think it's weird that you think just because you've been a fan for a long time that means you definitely know what he likes lol. That's just ridiculous.
@@lesleythegreater Not yet, maybe next year. Just saying though, if we will see a Strange The Dreamer review here then we can say I'm wrong. If not, then you're right.
I don't think he would like those books, they are very romance heavy and feature Insta-love which I think he said was his least favorite romance trope.
One of the best YA series (though maybe it's middle school now?) was Lemony Snicket. Fantastic prose to the point of even criticizing readers who skim through books to "say they read it", complex themes and vocabulary, incredible story arcs, and the world was unique and wonderful.
The Netflix series was also one of the most perfect adaptations I've ever seen. Like I always thought A Series of Unfortunate Events was pretty much unadaptable because of how absurd it was but they really nailed it!
@@akd.29 as much as I love NPH, I haven't watched the series. The original movie adaptation with Jim Carrey was too perfect, it encapsulated the weirdness and childish wonder and struggle while also being bleak, dark, mysterious, hopeful, and engaging. Plus, Jim Carrey acting as a talentless actor acting magnificently as a raptor. Can't be beat 😂
@@MissMoontree from where they are in bookstores (and honestly the content itself) I'd place it at middle school, with the tv series definitely YA. Kids I classify as anything written for ages 8 and under with ample photographs, personally.
Talks about romances that sort of just pop up out of nowhere as a bad thing* * Looks at wheel of time and Sanderson* *looks back to Daniel* Pot kettle, black
Sanderson has gotten a lot better at romances (Wax/Steris). But either way, I don't need him to be that good at them since it's never the focus, so it's never been a point of contention for me.
The prose in The Book Thief by Markus Zusak is probably the best I have ever read, including all adult fiction I've read. That book also touches on very dark themes and was published in 2005 I think :)
YA fantasy got me into reading and I think it was a great introduction for someone whose native is not English. Now I'm ready to jump to other genres with more complex concepts but seeing Cassandra Clare and Leigh Bardugo evolving as writers will always please me
Daniel has become the epitome of quality shit posting on book tube and I love it. Not only do we get quality content and reviews, it’s also funny as hell and enjoyable to watch.
I would say that Erin Morgenstern (The Night Circus, The Starless Sea) has some beautiful prose, her writing flows very elegantly and she can paint excellent visions with her words.
Brandon Sanderson's Skyward and Steelheart are my favorite YA. He is also my favorite author so I am biased in that. I think the simpler prose and less villainous characters do make YA a choice when you want a light fun read, which I think is often why people like YA.
You just answered a critical question I had - Skyward was the only Sanderson book they had at the library today and I've been recommended his work so many times...50 pages in, and I can't get over just how young the prose skews. Thought I was going mad / had gotten very old indeed, because I wasn't expecting such over-cautious prose.
@@ShaleNinja skyward is also pretty different from his other works aside from the prose because it’s the first straight up Sci-fi book he published. Some of his future cosmere books are definitely going to be sic-fi though, he’s stated he’d like to do a space opera for the final era of Mistborn, of which there will be four eras. (Two of which are out now, the second era’s final book is close to releasing)
Daniel, first off, I want to say that you're one of my favorite booktubers, period. And I agreed with everything you said in the last two vids. But you don't have to defend yourself so much. You're going to get pushback either way. I think if you're respectful as you state your positions (which you were), you don't have to try so hard to prevent offense. You can't control other people's reactions, and I think the mood of your content suffered because you tried. That said, thank you for these vids. I'd like to see more booktubers honestly critiquing this genre.
In general I completely agree with this video, and you raised some points I hadn't thought of before, being someone who self-professedly doesn't like YA? There's so much wrong. I cringe at any book with romance in it now just because I'm scarred by YA. Yet, I'd like to say! There's a YA/Children's author, Frances Hardinge, she has impeccable prose. Absolutely wonderful. She even won the costa book award for The Lie Tree. Not just the Children's Costa Book Award, but the overall Costa Book Award. I know you were making a generalisation, but I felt like I had to scream this into the void a bit because she's DEFINITELY exempt. OH WAIT! You asked! Yes please, read The Lie Tree. The main character has very realistic maturity for a fourteen year old but actually acts like a human. Also Egg & Spoon by Gregory Maguire is written absolutely beautifully. I find that middle-grade is actually far more well written than YA. 100%. Middle-grade is more where you get the "children's books for everyone" like Narnia was. Children's/YA unfortunately sometimes gets grouped together and gets confusing. Genres are an absolute mess.
a friend sent this to me bc they thought i was subtweeting you, but i actually found both parts to be really interesting! i’ve been thinking a lot about genre vs category in fantasy and ya myself lately, so it was great to get a self-proclaimed ya outsider’s perspective. also, i appreciate that you mentioned that you’re coming at this with your own biases - so many people never do that when talking about genres outside their wheelhouse. something i did notice though is that a lot of the generalizations you mention are similar to what i’ve heard said about non-YA genre fiction too - from fantasy to romance, and i think a lot of those perceptions can often come down to audience fit. you make a good point when you say that YA isn’t for everyone. When you write, you have to write for your intended audience - not all audiences, so of course there will be people who pick up a general fantasy novel, YA novel, romance, etc and think it lacks depth or strong prose - it’s all about bias and preference. for example, you seem to really value stories that are more grim or dark, which is fair, so of course a category that tends to skew more hopeful may not be the right fit. im def the opposite - i find myself rolling my eyes when a book wades into grimdark territory. also, like you mentioned with finding romance in YA fantasy frustrating, I’ve often felt similar when forcing myself to read many of the pillars of fantasy like Name of the Wind or Game of Thrones. i struggled to find much nuance and depth in the characters and relationships, but once i broadened my reading to include more diverse authors and focused less on trying to read the “must-reads,” i found stories i truly loved. this isn’t to say those books truly do lack nuance or are bad - i just wasn’t the right reader to find those things in the novels. i do think maybe we have differing views of what mainstream YA is though, but likely you’d also have different views about what is mainstream fantasy than someone who has never read from the genre before.
Know this series ain't exactly new but, highly recommend the Earthsea Cycle and basically anything Ursula K.LeGuin because Earthsea is amazing! It truly was something ahead of its time. That is all. Honourable mention also goes to Lois Lowry because that woman is just as much of an absolute writing goddess.
Die hard YA reader here! So it’s definitely a pet peeve of mine when fantasy lovers completely disregard YA lit as juvenile or not as legitimate as adult fantasy, but I can totally understand and agree with some of the qualms people have with it! (Predominately unnecessary romance, lack of gritty realism, etc.) I don’t agree that HP is YA, I definitely see it as MG even though it darkens and intensifies as the series progresses, however it definitely did revolutionize fantasy markets for MG, YA and Adult fantasy.
One of the things I like about YA fantasy is that it isn't necessary 5000 page epic story. These fantastic worlds can be build small story at the time. I feel dissapointed some times when the language is sanitized, or they feel the need to still have the compulsory romance.
Character depth is my issue with YA. I love the genre, but ever since I shifted the bulk of my reading to high fantasy this issue has become more and more prevalent. The YA authors, in my opinion, are the best at developing new and interesting world with wild concepts and set ups, but I’m always left wonder how much further the world and story could go if the characters were more flushed out. At this point I read YA books after reading more adult content when I need a cool down. I read it when I need something fun and interesting, but not too mentally or emotionally draining.
I've found this too. I really need to make an emotional connection with a character when I read, and YA's lack of character depth bothers me, almost enough to drive me away from the genre entirely.
YA: The Seven Realms series by Cinda Williams Chima or A Monster Calls by Patrick Ness Adult: The Night Angel series by Brent Weeks Hope this helps 😁❤️
Sexism. Publishers push female authors into YA even when the books should be adult. I think they are actually rebranding that series to make it more adult, but most don’t get that opportunity
Yeah, that series is like the pioneer of the term “New Adult”. Like I don’t understand how there can be _another_ demographic in between young adult and adult like hUH. whatever advertising you do you
How did I just hear Catcher in the Rye be thought of as YA? YA used to be a different thing, it used to not talk down to young adults. (Catcher’s absolutely boring prose notwithstanding, of course)
@@skylar5790 From what I can tell, NA is more or less an attempt to extend the norms and conventions of YA outside of YA's typical age bracket. It's not really a demographic in of itself.
It's supposed to be NA. SJM says so herself. Everytime I was recommended it on booktube, the readers mentioned it being NA, so I don't really see why so many people think that. I guess they just see SJM and group all her works together. 🤷♀️
As a bookseller, I’d like to add that YA helps to lead teen readers to age appropriate books. Of course, we still need to read and research a lot to match readers with stories that best match their reading level, readiness for different content AND the genres they prefer. Many people stop reading in their teens, so it’s super valuable to have good books to recommend and keep them enjoying reading, hopefully for life 😊
Depends on the romance... Nynaeve and Lan is very well done, Rand and Min is also good. As frustrating as it is, Perrin and Faile is also believable. Egwene and Gawyn, Berelain and Galad etc? Yes, those are definitely not well executed.
@@judgekraken1710 I kinda gave up on the series after book 7 (I'm still planning on rereading it though) and I always loved the relationship between Lan and Nynaeve.
@@disneybunny45 WoT is by far my favourite series of all time, and let me tell you; books 7 - 10 are an absolute slog. ESPECIALLY 8 and 10. If you can I would highly recommend getting the audio book versions of 8, 9, and 10. From 11 onwards though, it's amazing again. Not to say that there aren't great scenes in those books, the slog is just a lot on first read. Don't expect great romance though, they aren't the best.
@@judgekraken1710 I really never liked Rand and Min, probably because I much prefered Rand and Elayne. She was pretty much the only character in the books who decided what she wanted and went for it.
I gave up on most of the plot at around book 9? Just read the parts with Mat because I couldn’t care less about the others. I’m considering re-reading the series now to see if I like it better as an adult.
As someone who has largely outgrown the YA genre but still occasionally genuinely enjoy them, this is such a great video. The analysis is spot on. I think people just tend to want to be on such opposite side of things sometimes, while they don’t have to be. The “limitations” issue for example, for some they might find it frustrating cause there are just places the characters wouldn’t go to, things they won’t do, but to others it might be reassuring? Like sometimes I need a book where I don’t have to be anxious about how far things will go, or that it might traumatize or upset me. What is “predictable” to some may be “reassuring” to others.
My 4th grade teacher read Hatchet to us and I was captivated by how quiet and lonely the setting felt to me. I never thought of it as a young adult book because I always thought of stories like Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, teen dystopia, and so on
I loved that book but only after reading your comment I released that it was actually YA. I usually don't like YA due to reasons that Daniel mentioned, but Spinning silver did not feel like YA at all. I guess Naomi Novik is just that good of a writer :)
@@vaidasmasys3764 I guess spinning silver didn't adhere to a lot of the tropes he mentioned. I don't recall the details because I read it long ago, but I definitely remember not wanting to put that down. Not to mention it didn't contain the "she let out a breath she had not been holding" kind of language that makes me want to roll my eyes.
Didn’t realize it was a YA book. Loved it though - I do think some the writers in YA are really exciting. I get the impression that most of the big YA authors are women - which is so cool. (Or it could be that I only read YA which is recommended ??)
"I would have come for you. And if I couldn't walk, I'd crawl to you, and no matter how broken we were, we'd fight our way out together-knives drawn, pistols blazing. Because that's what we do. We never stop fighting." - Kaz Brecker
I was once talking about my frustrations with a YA book to my dad. I hated how predictable it was and complained that there was so much in the world that was undeveloped when he pulled Eye of the World off the bookshelf. I still read and enjoy YA, but that moment led to a long time love affair with epic fantasy.
Chaos Walking by Patrick Ness gob smacked me so hard. It is the pinnacle of YA imo. The writing. The peril. The feels. Oh man, I can't wait to re-read it.
I would strongly agree with this. Especially because I think the issues Daniel has with prose in YA books aren't an issue in this series. It's definitely fast-paced, but the quality of the prose never suffers because of how fast the plot moves. Plus Manchee is just a great character.
Daniel, I am 55 and I think your opinions are well thought out and your explanations are clear and understandable. I have enjoyed watching a good number of your videos and have even picked up some books that you recommended! I also respect how you are perfectly willing to admit that you are wrong, a lot of much older and (supposedly) wiser people still can't do that! Maybe I will even (possibly) give Robert Jordan another go!
I recently read Star Wars: Heir To The Empire by Timothy Zahn while in middle school, and was AMAZED by how different it felt to most other books I’ve read in the past couple of years, those mostly being YA. Although it mostly uses pre-made characters, they feel more fleshed out than ever, and the new ones are extremely memorable. It just felt addictively well written. I had know idea this was a big thing until finding these videos, so thanks!
The Queen's Thief is one of the cleverest series I've ever read, especially from the second book on. Also, very underrated, The Lumatere Chronicles. Great writing and characters, and it deals with some pretty serious issues, such as displacement and trauma.
novi sob I really wish I could re-live reading The Thief for the first time. I’ve never felt so thoroughly tricked by an author, or been quite so happy about it.
I was so thrilled to find The Queens Thief series as an adult looking to get back into YA. Im glad to see it mentioned. How did it take me so long to find?
Excellent recommendations. Lumatere Chronicles is written by Melina Marchetta, who has also written contemporary YA with mature themes and beautiful prose. (Prose good enough to be recommended to Daniel to check out.) I'd say it's a great counter example to all the (very fair) points Daniel made in this video.
You were very spot on with the idea that YA is being marketed to people who are curently adults who grew up reading YA, instead of actualy current teenagers. I follow a lot of librarians and in the past few years I have seen a sharp increase in people bemoaning that "Younger YA" is harder and harder to find. MG can't cover everything, there's 14/15 year olds for whom MG books are too young and below their reading level, but who can't connect to YA stories because most of those books are trying to target to 25 year olds who want snackable stories. And what's there for teenagers that aren't really into romance? You know what happens to kids who can't find books they love? They stop reading. It sucks And a lot of these adult YA readers, like you said, get frustrated with younger YA, because while they do want snackable and fast-paced stories, they also want more exploration of dark themes and to be treated like adults. "New Adult" is basically exactly this, and it has potential but it isn't as commerically viable so books that really shoudl be New Adult get pushed into YA instead and forced to simplify themselves for the sake of at least nominaly still appealing to children. These two audiences that are so radically different get stuffed together and are both getting a worse reading experience for it.
This really speaks to me. I’m an adult who enjoys the more whimsical nature and less visceral feel books targeted to younger audiences have (Chronicles of Narnia, Hobbit, Harry Potter) but it feels like there’s nothing much out there now. Middle grade is 8-12 and tons of books have 12 year old MCs, and there are plenty of YAs with 16 and up, but 13-15 seems like a dead zone. Looking back, that is around the age I stopped reading for fun. For what it’s worth luckily some books are still finding success. A Wizard’s Guide to a Defensive Baking has a 14 year old protagonist and I hear nothing but praise for it (it really is quite good).
My favorite YA series with good prose: Young Wizards, the first books are more so for kids, but the development, especially later on with regards to loss, are excellent. Artemis Fowl, the writing always reminded me of Clancy and while in the end the protagonist ends up as a good character the first several books defiantly portray a antihero with solid development. Airborn Series, the romance parts can be juvenile and cringy but the prose and world building are excellent and the stories themselves are awesome adventures. Garth Nix. The Sabriel series is a genre all its own with excellent writing and I thoroughly enjoyed the Keys to the Kingdom series.
As a big YA fan, both when growing and slightly now so I can recommend books to my siblings, I have many of the same problem. My biggest one is the romance. I 100 percent agree that it feels forced into almost every single one. BUT many also do a great job. I think Rick Riordan does a fantastic job at developing relationships of friends, enemies, and couples. My favorite though is the legend series by Marie Lu where even with the great world and action scenes I would completely label it a romance in my mind. Very well done
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I'm just waiting for the female protagonist to choose between two guys so she can finally save the world.
Hmm, it's almost like the protagonist and the two love interests form some kind of geometric shape....
Ah, I see you also watch Terrible Writing Advice as well
@@dohickey7184 Zappers! ;-)
@@pavelowjohn9167 All hail the love triangle
Is this supposed to be an inverse steins;gate?
He is not invisible, he is slowly becoming one with the books. The days are not far when the tales of Daniel Greene will be told as a man, for then he will not be but a presence.
Are you saying he should purchase a green screen full body suit so he can be one with the books?
James Aitken That’s what it sounds like
@@jamesmalik3355 Greene Screen
That would be interesting to read
I’m confused. From the fact that YA blew up and dominated the literary medium, why did that happen?
"Why do YAs all have shoehorned underdeveloped romances"
You might have heard of this thing that was very nearly as popular as Harry Potter that also shaped the genre called uh...Twilight?
Twilight is YA?
@@DkM96 more or less
@@DkM96 It's in the YA section of book stores and it has most of the bingo spots filled for YA tropes so yeah?
i honestly find it quite shocking Daniel never brought up Twilight. Yes Harry Potter kicked off middle grade/YA HOWEVER i can strongly say that YA was shaped way more by Twilight than it was HP in terms of what tropes and things are common in YA.
I think it wasn't the Twilight books that shaped the genre as much as the movies. I don't think it had the hype that Harry Potter books had, regardless of the movies.
Daniel is looking like a hip university lecturer but lacking a torso.
Ben Jones torsos are severely overrated.
No, if he wants to look like a hip university lecturer, he'd wear a tweed sport coat with suede elbow patches.
Also with a cardigan underneath.
No torso, and still better abs than me.
Granted, I haven't actively exercised in 20 years, but still...
Legitimately looks like my legal research lecturer. Like identical
Luke Henry But half the time he talks bollocks!! 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
As someone who reads a lot of YA and has begun to read more Adult, I feel that YA is written to be read fast so that you read more. I find myself flying through YA and moving on to the next. Adult has me taking my time and really delving into the story. Anyone else agree?
That's actually one of the reasons why I read YA the most. I genuinely do not have the time to read slower-paced books and audiobook format is just not for me at the moment so YA allows me to indulge in reading and actually finishing the book.
I think it depends on the author. In my experience I can fly through Mary Downing Hahn, James Patterson, and Neil Shusterman books. But then there’s people like Philip Reeves and Brandon Sanderson who, for me at least, are much slower reads. This is the same for non-YA books, I’m a huge Stephen King fan mainly because his books, for me, are really easy to read.
Kelly 19202 true I fly through Stephen king
Remmy Black I’m the same way, if I know I don’t have the time for an adult novel I ten to pick a YA because I know I can finish it quickly
Yeah in 6th grade I read like 150 books and In 7th grade I read A song of Ice and Fire and that took most of the year
how YA romance works:
he was boy
she was girl
can i make it anymore obvious? 🎶
Let’s be honest, that how most young teen dating works. I remember some of my dating history and there was very little there besides “ooh, he’s hot and we have one or two things in common”.
*Y E S*
I love this comment so much right now. Clever girl, clever girl.
Percy Jackson subverted that.
@@cybersketcher1130 Percy Jackson was originally aimed at children and is listed as Children's Lit. So, not YA. The first two quartets in the Emelan series also don't have kids falling in love because they are children's books (though the second quartet straddles the children/ya divide). The third book, though, has romance as an important plot element because the books are aimed at a more adult audience. A good subversion would be Protector of the Small. Or Devil on my Back.
"You're a girl. He's a boy. Your... Parts go together!"
I'm terribly disappointed in this video, Daniel. Every time you asked "why," you had the opportunity to say, "... A." You dropped the ball EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. For shame, sir!
Good one...goood one
I know, he should have asked why, eh? But then Daniel's not Canadian.
That is so true he should do that next time
I thought the same thing!
As in "Why - A good question."
But honestly, as a non-native English speaker I could imagine myself super confused if he had done like that.
You're literally if the Green Brothers had a long lost third brother who focused on books instead of crash course history and science
Considering both the Green brothers are also YA authors I think that would definitely make Thanksgiving dinner uncomfortable lol.
I was just thinking this lol
I love Hank so much 😂
@@MRuby-qb9bd Hank's book is actually considered an adult book.
Or at least that's what Hank considers it and that's how I've seen it shelved in bookstores.
@@baileym3060 Oh, I guess I just assumed based on what I have heard and who I have seen reading but it would make sense the audience would crossover for that. I haven't read it myself.
As a Non-native speaker, reading English YA in my teens actually really helped me and nowadays I only read English literature and my studies are entirely in English. As much as the writing might be simplified, it's a really great way to join the English literary world.
I've had sort of a similar experience! I'm from Sweden and am currently trying to wrap my head around more of the classical english literature(the brontë sisters etc), but a couple of years ago, in my early teens, english YA was all I read! (wich also made me quite tired of the genre...)
Similar experience here! My library had a lot of YA novels and so my curious brain went "eh, why not?"
YA helped me grow my vocabulary. There was also a book I read that I can't remember the title, it was about if Shakespeare had a sister and thus my curiosity lead me to start reading many Shakespeare playwrights like: Othello and Henry the V.
Now, I love classics and I still read YA novels that I find interesting. It was kind of a stepping stone for me and I have an appreciation for it.
Yeah, same here. As non-native English speaker YA is a bit easier to read to work up vocabulary and speed in reading.
I started with Harry Potter in English, since I'd read them in Swedish first and then I continued reading English versions of books I've read before, like Wheel of Time until nowadays I go straight for the English version.
In 11th and 12th grade in Germany, I knew a girl who basically spoke better English than most native speakers, simply by reading (mostly?) English YA books. I say "better" because she combined the vocabulary and experience she learned from the books, with the formal grammar lessons learned in English class. (When most native speakers talk, they aren't thinking about the difference between "I've gone home already" and "I went home already". Not a very subtle example, but I promise you there are grammatically incorrect things native speakers say without even realizing it.)
She also had a little digital dictionary device (since phones weren't allowed to be used at school) to help her get pronunciations right.
She'd never even been to an English speaking country; not even on a short vacation. I grew up in an English speaking country, and her English was certainly better than mine. XD
Ah! Well, there you go. That's actually pretty neat.
I really agree with the romance thing - I have nothing against it but just like you've mentioned - when it's just a box to tick and it has no real substance then I don't see the necessity of it appearing in the story. GIVE US FRIENDSHIPS TOO.
Uffff, I know right? The most un appealing par for me it's the romances subplots. Some make me wanna tear my eyeballs out
I actually love romances and even read a lot of romance novels. For this very reason, I agree that romances need to be well done and take the time to develop. Give me all that good stuff!
Or we’ll made romances
For an example, magnus Chase
I feel like not everybody needs to end up with someone, maybe our protagonists can have a nice well developed angsty (love me some angst) but not dramatic romance throughout the series , but lets not make it a huge part of it, just moments to make ur heart excited. It really is tricky to deal with romance, since it gets boring easily, especially if theyre paired too fast or if its given too much focus. I prefer the romance aspect to help the person grow instead of complicating matters for them when they have so much to deal with already. Just me maybe
Especially when they throw it in for no reason
every time Daniel said "WHY" my brain would just automatically say "A"
hahaha
Why, eh?
glad i wasnt the only one
Daniel: “If you treat females like they’re human beings, suddenly you’re writing good female characters, who would have thought?”
Me: (applause) THANK YOU DANIEL
Seriously, why is this sentiment so seemingly rare?
Strange coming from the Wheel of Time superfan, though.
@@davidbowles7281 Not really he has recognized that wheel of time's female characters are not as good as they could be and some are even bad, he only has said they are not as bad as people say. It's ok to be a fan of something and also recognize its flaws.
@@oscarchavezavellan2738 I don't really get that vibe from him. Jordan's depiction of women ALONE keeps it out of my top 5 fantasy series. This guy has it at #1? Seems like to me that's tacit approval.
"Not as bad as people say" No, they're worse.
I'm a fan of a lot of movies and series that I would never contemplate putting at #1. I guess that's my point.
@@davidbowles7281 Well, you have to take in account that he grew up with the series. And was so obsessed with it that he couldn't read anything else for a decade (check his video "post series depression" where he talks about that). I think that's good, having something you like on your top knowing that not everyone can enjoy it, as long as you are not blind of the flaws of your favourite thing you have all the right to like it as much as you want.
It's weird what you said, I have heard a lot of mix of opinions about wheel of time's female characters, some people say they are terrible, some others say they are good, and there is always the one who think they are brilliant. Women normally agree they are not and ideal female respresentation, but the great majority agreed that they are not terrible (you can check reviews if you say I'm generalizing without providing examples, I'm sure there are bunch that can prove that those mix opinions exist). See? People have their opinions, you have yours, even your favourite things has flaws, because it's made by humans. I guess what I'm trying to say is do not try to force your opinions stating them as facts in other people's mind.
As maybe an answer about the over-inclusion of romance into books that otherwise shouldn't need it: Someone I know is currently shopping a YA fantasy (that has no romance in it) around to publishers and the overwhelming consensus is "needs more romance, what about pairing X character with Y character?"
So it could be that it's not always the fault of YA authors for including unnecessary or uninspired romances. A lot of publishers seem to think it's necessary, perhaps after seeing the success of very romance-focused books in the YA genre-not-genre (SJM, I'm looking at you)
ooh the travisty of the Hobbit movie resurfaces in my mind...
If you haven't already, tell them to never concede to the demands of "suits". Never violate your creative image with "popularity" centered additions and subtractions. Just keep looking or try and convince one of them I guess. I hope they find success though! Can you share the title?
@@matthewtaylor744 they're still shopping around at the moment from what I know :)
@@Katyayay I've found that the "romantic plot tumor" holds back authors from fully exploring the settings and story threads that would elevate their writing. Interestingly, Harry Potter largely avoids this.
@@eventer4626 Cursed Hobbitses movies
platonic friendships between a girl and boy is something i crave so hard in YA books so i agree with you about the forced romance.. its annoying.
It's 2 years late, but as someone who does primarily read YA fantasy-supernatural and romance, I read it because it goes down easy. A lot of it is just my power fantasy and escapism, so I'm not asking to be challenged. If I want something more substantial, yeah I'll pick up a more adult fantasy or science fiction novel. But when I'm tired and want to be comforted, or just want to befriend or obsess over a nice character, it's hard to beat YA fantasy.
So its like McDonalds basically? You dont wanna cook, and you dont wanna wait for your friggin food to arrive you just want something to put in your Belly? No offense, its just what it sounds to me.
Me too. It is pleasant escapism. I have enough dark shit in my life that I don't want it in my relaxation time. I want to escape and have fun. Nothing wrong with that. Not everything has to be "edgy".
@@Bossfightmedia why word it so condescending then
Just curious, how would you describe "challenging" when it comes to a narrative? Can you think of an example? (Just curious because I am researching how readers understand the books they read)
@@FirstCommandmentRigorist Maybe things like Dune, the Ender Quartet, Neuromancer or stuff by Phillip K Dick? It's the sort of books that make you stop and think about what you've read, and put an effort into understanding each character to understand the subtext. They also present interesting ideas, either new or familiar but in a different way to most.
The worst publishing marketing mistake (that I’ve seen personally) is to The Raven Cycle series. The blurb in book 1 only focuses on the “romance” when that’s a very small piece of the book. Maggie Stiefvater did a really great job of creating a very magical story and taking you on this journey with the characters, her writing style is really interesting too.
True i thought its was another YA romance fantasy and instead was more like YA Magical Realism based of friendship. And Maggie have that wrtitting style that its different and I love it.
Oh, yes! They really did those books dirty with the marketing. The characters are super interesting and layered and the concept of found family is very proeminent. It also deals with very dark subjects we don't see much in YA. Stiefvater's writing style is very fresh and reads like something magical. The Raven Boys being marketed as a forbidden love story is just very off the mark. I was pleasantly surprised when I read the first book and then even more with book 2, 3 and 4.
Thanks for saying this, have heard a lot of good things about the book but couldn't get myself up to another shallow YA romance. Now I'll probably give it a shot.
Oh, the garbage I had to sit through to find this gem. I wish there was an easier way to find novels like that series.
YES! THis is so true! I slept on this book for so many years because of that blurb, but it was so good I binged the rest of the series in a week
I appreciate how transparent you're being, literally.
Underrated comment
I distinctly remember feeling absolutely immersed in Riordan’s world every time I sat down to read one of his books growing up (The Red Pyramid especially). I miss that feeling and hope to be able find that again, but I’m not sure where to start now that I’m so far removed from the YA world after spending 4 years in university and not having the time to read for fun.
I’m nearly 30 and really enjoy Riordan’s books because I find mythology fascinating. That’s not limited to YA books, either. I’ve got a few encyclopedias, as well.
In the same boat, answer is audiobooks. Listen while I drive, shower, or walk the dog.
Lucky you've got the internet and can look up recommendations from other former Percy fans.
Yeah riordans books are excellently written, he doesn't dumb it down
Same, I don’t think anything will ever top the PJO and HoO books for me, not necessarily on a craft or prose level, but just as my favorite set of stories I’ve experienced. Fun, witty, rich with originality, endearing, thought provoking, just excellent books to go through life with.
I almost want to endorse the Throne of Glass series just to see how much he would hate it
oh, that would be so interesting to see him rip it apart
I'm currently reading the series now and I've gotten SOO annoyed at some stuff and I'm the target demographic. I can't imagine how much HE will get frustrated with these book XD
@@Katmiobeth unfortunately I read the entire series before I realized it was garbage.
Arden Toney once it started getting sexual i stopped like what?? why introduce that five books into the series?
@@archerymaster8 right. I was like, is this fantasy or romance?
I think there’s this weird misconception that YA readers never question YA at all, when we’re actually discussing a lot of these same problems all the time! Also that people can only read one genre.... because personally I just read the books I’m interested in, regardless of their genre/age category!
Best prose in YA fantasy has to be Maggie Stiefvater’s Raven Cycle, or anything by Laini Taylor. Both have beautifully whimsical and distinct styles that really stand out from the rest.
Certainly two of my favorite YA authors.
The Raven Cycle was amazing! It didn't even really click with me that it really is a YA book.
Two of my favorite authors! Strange the Dreamer is one of my favorite books of all time, I was just so enchanted by the beautiful writing.
Oh yeah I love these two authors. Through the whole video I was like "he should read The Raven Cycle "
Maggie Stiefvater blew me away with the Raven Cycle and the Scorpio Races, especially after I read her mediocre shiver series. She set the eerie, unsettling tone of the story masterfully with her prose and manages to write such depth in her characters.
Laini Taylor also is a master storyteller with very rich worlds, three dimensional characters and the skill to weave together compelling story arcs.
As a would-be author myself, I once wrote a draft of a novel that could be considered YA since the protagonist was 16 years old. One editor told me that I NEEDED to add a romance to the story. I argued that it made no sense to the story. It was suggested by another that I read the Harry Potter books so that I could understand "how" to write a YA. I let her know, in no uncertain terms, that JK Rowling does just fine on her own and the world doesn't need yet another author trying to be her.
Marketing over substance? OH yeah!
laini taylor's work, while all featuring romance to some degree, have some of the most whimsical writing i've personally encountered. and unique worlds, imo
I hated that one about angels and demons. Only time I've fallen asleep whilst reading a book. But go ahead, im no gatekeeper
Yes!. Particularly "Strange the Dreamer"
@@kvothekingkiller1754 her second series "Strange the Dreamer" is much better!
@Bella Bells yeah I actually haven't finished Daughter of Smoke and Bone because it was SOOO focused on a romance that I didn't care about and if felt like there was mystery and plot but it was very slow. That being said Strange the Dreamer is one of my favorite books I've ever read! (Im 16 too btw)
@@sammie9088 honestly same. i read daughter of smoke and bone and had the same experience so i didn't continue with the series. I'm hoping to like strange the dreamer more
As a person who reads a lot of YA. I complain about the short comings of YA all the time.
same here. I don't know why I read so much YA fantasy when it just makes me want to hit my head against the wall a lot of the time lol. There's just something about YA fantasy that keeps bringing me back
Sentuis BattlePants when I was younger, my friends and I were avid readers, and we used to do the same all the time
"They want to be smart, they want to be not like everyone else, and yet they are the same"
@@a_karch this...this is just what it means to be a young adult in the 21st century.
V.E.Schwab has written adult and YA fantasy, which I both loved. Her writing remains consistent through both genres imo with the only difference being more self-discovery themes in the YA ones.
Hunger Games: Mockingjay definitely has legitimate darkness to it. The pacing of the book felt terrible, however Collins didn’t back down from turning Katniss down a darker path. She clearly never cares about fighting for the good guys and her trust in any authority is definitely shattered. I mean for a large part of the book she is a morphine addict, the only thing that allows her to fight the addiction is her all consuming hate of the capital and her fear for her boy toy. I feel like even though she is clearly the protagonist, Katniss is no where even close to the hero of the books
I actually understood her addiction differently. I understood it as driven by her loss of her romantic interest. This book ruined the series for me. I felt like Katniss was such a strong character that her escapism just felt forced and out of character. And especially since I saw it directly tied to a man, it just was a waste.
elumbra Looking back I was a bit harsh in my
comment. I just think the romance wasn’t that well done and it bothers me that Katniss never really explores her thoughts on morality, but really just reacts to things. I think her addiction to morphine really is a classic I got in the hospital and got addicted type thing, complicated by the recent loss of the person she cares about and her ptsd.
@@elumbra I didn't see that coming out romance at all. I did not enjoy Mockingjay (I loved Hunger Games) but I thought its strongest quality was it was almost a case study on PTSD. The amount of exploration the author did into trauma victims i.e.Katniss was honestly staggering. It was quite spot on. I so wish the writing had been better as that combined with the exploration of trauma and PTSD would have made it one of the best books I've read. I thought the morphine addiction was a response to her trauma. And no her trauma was not soley based on Peeta. Although relational trauma is a very real thing, that was only part of it in this case. The Hunger Games, her killing people, the constant fear she grew with her whole life, losing her father, essentially losing her mother, foregoing a childhood to take care of her mother, threat of death in and out of the games....and then in the games AGAIN. All this was trauma and as a young woman and Katniss was not able to cope with it, and honestly who would?! To say this came solely out of losing Peeta, just no. There was so much in here to cascade traumatic events in Katniss life. I don't think her response means she is not strong. I really mean it when I say who could have responded to all that in a productive way? It is easy for us to judge her actions from our "normal" life where we had a childhood and did not have to face constant threat of death and forced to kill others to survive. From our standing how can we say Katniss was "weak" to turn to addiction to escape? She was a trauma victim and the book explored that extremely well...too bad the rest of it was poor.
@@mattpfarr6129 for me it wasn't the PTSD or the addiction that bothered me so much as what I saw as the instigating factor. I saw her character change happen simultaneously with Peeta's capture and to me felt like the instigating factor. Had it been her sisters death it would have made a lot more sense to me. Lastly, as I stated before, it just felt forced. Other books have done a better job of showing addiction. The ancillary series being the one that comes to mind the most.
@@elumbra , Katniss has no real romantic interest.
There are forced on her by circumstances.
If the writer has respected her character, she would have end up alone.
She's very close to asexual, in essence.
And yes of course, what defines her is her ptsd. She's a classical study of the condition, and pretty well done.l
Personally, Percy Jackson is such a fun book series aimed at kids that it kinda appeals to anyone, a child or an adult. Truly a great book series.
Definitely agree with you that YA has 'aged up' with its readers over the years.
As a teacher working with12/13 year olds, around 15 years ago there was a range of YA books (what I'd now call teenage fiction) that I could recommend to them. These would be heavier than middle grade content-wise and usually involve teenage protagonists, dealing with hormones and first attempts at romance, higher stakes and characters dying, exploring these emotions and addressing some real life issues (not always all of these in the same book!)
Nowadays, I struggle to find appropriate content for 12/13 year old readers. Many of the books classed as YA now tend to have explicit content that I don't feel comfortable recommending. Feels like there's a gap in the market for this age group.
Kay Very true! I have the same issue with recommending books to my students.
I'm not someone who works with kids, but as someone who was well-read from a young age, I have to agree with this. I have a lot of friends my age and older with kids that are getting older and I desperately want to see them grow up as readers with an appreciation for great stories and beautiful prose, but unfortunately, most of the popular books I see targeting their age demographics these days aren't even close to recommendable due to content. In the end, I usually fall back on recommending the books I grew up reading (Narnia, LotR and the Hobbit, classics in general), but I do wish there were more "new and exciting" books I could point them towards, similarly to how Harry Potter functioned as a gateway into reading for kids who grew up when it was still coming out. (And I say that as someone who isn't a fan of Harry Potter, lol).
Agreed - I want to get my nephew into reading and just don’t know what to start him on. My YA reading recently would all be stuff I wouldn’t give him. He is 12 so any suggestions would be appreciated !
@@mastersal4644
Depends what genres he's into. Here's some ideas that bridge the middle grade/YA gap.
Alex Rider Series by Anthony Horowitz. 14 year old spy. Adventure, mystery, fast cars, gadgets and explosions.
Skulduggery Pleasant Series by Derek Landy. Main character Stephanie teams up with a skeleton detective to solve crimes and use magic. Think she's about 12 at the start of the series. 13 books later she's around 25!
Old Kingdom series by Garth Nix. Sabriel returns to the Old Kingdom to search for her missing father. A place where technology doesn't work and people rely on charter magic. Sabriel must learn to wield the Abhorsens bells and control the dead brought back to life by evil necromancers.
Mortal Engines Quartet by Phillip Reeve. Far in the distance future, cities have mobilised. They roll around the land on wheels seeking smaller cities to prey on scavenge for parts.
Also by Phillip Reeve the Railhead trilogy. Set in the future, intergalactic trains travel at light speeds between different worlds. Follows the adventures of Zen, a petty thief, who is contacted to steal an artefact from the royal train leading to disastrous consequences.
Bartimaeus Trilogy by Jonathan Stroud. Young magician Nathaniel Simmons a centuries old djinni, Bartimaeus. Full of political intrigue, plots, betrayals and dangerous magic.
Sorry for the overload of recommendations. In this lockdown, I'm missing recommending books to my students so making up for it here!
As a teen librarian I’m having the same issues! YA fantasy has sort of stepped in as a stop gap for the lack of fantasy written by and for women in adult, but it’s effectively pushed teens - especially younger teens - out of YA. I have so many readers excited to be in middle school and read from the teen section, but there just isn’t a lot meant for them and it makes me sad.
Last time I was this early people were driving by and spoiling Harry Potter books
Well developed YA romance?
Percy Jackson and Annabeth Chase.
Started out as acquaintances, grudgingly developed a friendship after gaining respect for one another as they had to work together, a bond that was strengthened by trusting and relying on each other in the midst of life and death situations, as well as complexities of life in general. They came to count on one another, for support, and after five books, finally got together once romantic feelings had developed organically and had been hinted at for two, maybe even three of the books. There’s mutual respect, strengths and weaknesses that compliment one another, trust, encouragement, respected boundaries, honesty and no melodrama whatsoever.
Their relationship is a source of stability and strength once the second series takes a more mature tone with higher stakes. Probably the healthiest relationship I’ve seen in YA. Wish more were written like it.
(I’m aware PJO is middle grade, but their relationship is just as prevalent and developed in the subsequent YA series.)
I totally agree Percy and Annabeth have the best romance I ever read
It was probably based off the relationship between Rick Riordan and his wife’s, so that’s why it feels more realistic than compared to most of the other YA romances.
They're not rushed. Love them ✨
Yay Percy and Annabeth!
But I agree there are some good ones but just as much bad ones
As a non-native English speaker, YA was my gateway to fantasy, since it's much more digestible than adult fantasy and I enjoyed them a lottt.
It's just the ongoing trend in YA is not my cup of tea anymore so I have been straying away further from that genre these last five year-ish. If u guys hv amazing YA books you want to recommend I'd love to jump back to the genre.
Side note: hell I was born in 94 too and I pay my own taxes alrd so who ure calling kids now?
Have you read the riordan books?
Same! It is definitely easier to ignore average prose when the language itself is already not 100% familiar to you and common words sound kind of exotic
@@turma8eac I had, but sadly it didn't grip me. I think it's the writing style and I'm not really into urban fantasy :(
@@CheshireSmile98 yesss. I think reading heavy prose right off the bat when you just start reading in English would kill much of your enjoyment early on. I have many friends who quit reading or struggling to keep reading as habit bcs of it.
Me too! I started out with things like the lunar chronicles and throne of glass, when I was around 14 and I don't think I would be able to fully comprehend what I read now without it. With those series it also wasn't as important if missed or didn't understand some aspects. Now when I go back I notice so many things that just went over my head in the past, but it didn't really matter for the story overall^^
This may be a weird point but I occasionally read YA and one of the main reasons is its simplicity and predictability. I also like how the first book is usually ultra simple but the sequels start getting more and more complex, never too much mind you. Sometimes I just want to read something easy to digest and comfortable. Last 3 YA I read were the maze runner series, hunger games and more recently throne of glass. Of course now I'm deep into the wheel of time for thr first time but I might be reading something simple again after it.
They are the often the hallmark versions of books ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ that’s how it be
Of course you are. 😏 I don’t think anybody watching this channel can remain from reading WoT for too long.
(In b9 myself)
Agree. Sometimes if you're stressed or have a lot of stuff going on its just a good easy escape. Good vacation books too.
This is actually a really good point. I only read YA when I'm stressed out and looking for something simple and easy. It's relaxing.
I think the Lumatere Chronicles is a good example of this. First book is pretty simple and straightforward but second and third get a little more complex, not too much of course, but yeah.
The "Six of Crows" duology is what lured me back into YA after walking away in complete disgust and frustration. It was a trap of horrifying proportions. Never again.
I hated Six of Crows, personally. I read it, I read Red Rising. I think YA fantasy is kind of what put me off fantasy in general. I’ve been reading more fantasy lately and it’s definitely not my favorite, but I enjoy it.
I almost bought those books… so glad I didn’t
@@wham1984 I loved the duology; read the first book 7 times in two years. But I know I connected to it because of previous trauma. It's definitely not for everyone, and that is okay!
@@wham1984 it’s good. A shining light amongst a bunch of dull fantasy.
@@oh_kay2954 OMG I bought the duology last summer and I can't give me the time to read theeeeeeemmmmm. I will try to read them before this year ends.
I don’t really like YA romances anymore either. Yet I think YA books were the first place I ever saw anything about LGBT+ relationships. Especially about characters my age. During the mid 00’s and early 10’s most media with LGBT+ characters focused on adults.
I so fully agree with this!
Totally agree! Especially with the Latest Rick Ryordan/Cassandra Clare books. Yes, their writing is great, their stories are epic...but seeing lgbt+ teens like me really brings me a lot of joy to keep on readind their work.
@@desy7864 yes!
l remember looking through old books published by Vandecourt or Valencourt(l don’t remember ;-;)) and they actually have some books with lgbt+ content. they’re a bit older, so l’m curious how they compare to such books published today.
I'm actually doing this with my fantasy series. It's currently in outline stage but my protagonist will be LGBT+. I'm currently writing a serial with an LGBT+ main character too which can be found online. I've wanted more fantsies like this so I'm trying to write my own lol.
Personally my biggest gripe with YA books is primarily the protagonists. At least from my experience the vast majority of them seem to be purposefully made bland, presumably for the sake of 'self-inserts. You can kinda see that with Harry potter himself and it only got worse from there. They never seem to have unique personalities and quirks, they are just the every-man/woman people can identify with. This also makes it hard to get satisfying character development for them as well.
Side characters almost always have more personality than the protagonists and that is generally what kills these stories for me. I read to learn about and follow characters and their development and I just don't get that from YA that much, Not saying that all of those books are bad, but that they generally don't provide what I'm looking for.
Exactly! We're so obsessed with "relatable" that we forget we're supposed to learn from the stories of people who are not like us, not be presented with an adventure that has a cut-out to stick our face in.
@@jessicawurm23 Pretty much, yeah. The thing is, I get people wanting to insert themselves into fantastical adventures and what have you, imagining what it would be like to be the hero and so on. All of that is fine. But there seem to be a lot of common issues when authors cater to that mindset. The other characters in the story almost always immediately like the protagonist because anything else could reflect badly on the reader. For the same reason the protagonist can't have too many character flaws to overcome so they tend to skip large parts of the heroes journey which in turn makes the story less satisfying.
This is obviously an oversimplification and I'm not saying that all of YA is like that, but it is usually this or things like this that that has put me off the genre
As for romance in YA, I feel like that's sort of how "romance" works sometimes when you're a teenager. "We're friends! Oh, we're boy and girl? That must mean we're in love now."
That fucked me up so bad growing up lol. It’s a terrible message for children. Found out I’m just not into anyone lolol
@@AsdfAsdf-mi6ks aromantic?
@@copeless1090 yup
@@AsdfAsdf-mi6ks epicc
That is an excellent point and I’ve never thought about if from that perspective. Thinking back to my own high school years, it absolutely was like that on more than one occasion. It still mildly annoys me (rarely stops me, YA fantasy is one of my favorite things to read) but it does make a lot of sense
THANK YOU for mentioning the bad prose!!! I've tried to talk about this with other people so many times, and they always were "no, it's not that bad". Being non-native English speaker notwithstanding I really can tell good prose from bad prose. And YA so many times got it bad. But what's mostly frustrating is that books that have ACTUAL good prose (like The Bone Witch, although it has many other limitations you mentioned), world setting, character setting and growth, are being labelled as BORING and looked down upon. That's probably the saddest thing I've seen in the community.
Yep. It is common to hear "experts" on RUclips and other sites declare anything but a string of action scenes with characters from the same comic books as "boring info dumps." World building and character growth are difficult to write. It is not fashionable to include these elements of great fiction.
OKAY I love the Bone Witch and I never see anyone talk about and I get so confused? Like the writing is so beautiful despite it being firmly entrenched in the YA restrictions, which isn’t always bad if you are looking for a more simple read.
YA and even some of adult fantasy nowadays often read like they are printed fanfiction. Same level.
@@endlessstudent3512 I've read a lot of fanfiction that was much better than what's actually published
@@mroczna88 I concede...you are right :D
I was always have a soft spot for YA as it was my first intro to fantasy, as your first video pointed out with Harry Potter. That said, I’ve been trying to read more adult fantasy than YA lately. Thanks to your videos, I’ve been accomplishing that, much to my wife’s chagrin (lots of dollars been spent)
Omg, you're so right about the romance -_-. I'm a girl, and that's the main reason I don't read YA that much; I don't NEED freacking romance everywhere. I want to read about fantasy, not love triangles! It's driving me insane
There are a few good romances that make sense but most are soooo forced
I agree! I get tired of the plot seemingly to be around only the romance part, and the romance a huge part. It’s exhausting, so I’ve been reading more adult because it’s often less cliche!
I understand yours, the feel it's weckring me
I've noticed that the only romantic relationships in YA that feel justified are the ones that don't fully come together until the end of the story (and not because a love triangle was involved). YA has grown up in some ways, but the expression of love can be quite juvenile. Too much melodrama for someone in their mid-twenties, who has experienced love in a more nuanced fashion.
Also, I think too many people believe that two people of the opposite sex could never remain just friends over a prolonged period of exposure to each other. In some cases, forced romance in YA books could be the result of the author being uncertain of how to handle friendship with the opposite sex. In others, it provides a nice buffer for a dull plot.
Percy Jackson books:
Exists
I really enjoyed the writing style of The Raven Cycle by Maggie Stiefvater. I'm fairly certain that that series is considered YA.
Maggie's prose is very good but that's rarity in modern ya. I think the perfect example of john is saying is Cassandra clare. I mean, some of her passages are gold but mostly it's just sooo watered down. Sometimes, I honestly confuse the writing styles employed by her and stephanie meyers. Again, this could be just common in the ya I've read but it's something I've done being seen too often in mainstream ya at least. The opposite of this for me is leigh bardugo cuz even though I consider her to either very hot and cold , the one thing I've always find unique about her is that her prose is very well balanced.
I don’t think the YA “genre” came into prominence until Twilight. I don’t think you’re necessarily wrong about Harry Potter being the spearhead of the genre but Harry Potter was often regarded as Children/Middle Grade in the bookstores and libraries I went to
While yes Harry Potter series is labelled as children's book but you'd be surprised to see how many adult fans we have in HP fandom. The first 3 HP books are definitely aimed towards pre-teens but it gets darker from the fourth book onwards hence venturing into the "YA" sub-genre. I think HP really did popularize or introduce YA to mainstream because suddenly we started seeing similiar stories with protagonist who's the "chosen one" to fight against the evil. While I must say, Twilight helped in popularising the romantic side of the YA (especially the love triangle part).
Although Harry Potter is regarded as children's book, most of the readers of the book are mostly in their 20s.
Lol no
@@aaskive Now thats true but was it true when the books were being released?
This is a good point. I see Harry Potter as the genesis of the modern form of the genre, but Twilight is where it came into its own, and a perfect example of the genre growing up with HP fans. For hardcore YA writers, Twlight and Hunger Games seem to be the templates most authors follow.
@@guppy719 yes, In the part 1 of this video you can see that most of the people in the store waiting to purchase HP are adults who are young and teens
A Monster Calls by Patrick Ness
Anyam Borpuzari 16 you sir, have a great taste!
as an active YA disliker, i second this recommendation
i thought you said monsters of men by patrick ness
Best YA book by far
I haven't read the book, but the movie made me cry.
To be fair, the awkward pointless romance plots with zero chemistry are pretty dominant everywhere. Not many authors can write good romance and make it feel like it doesn't step on the main plot -well renowned fantasy authors included. It's just YA is known for beeing cheesy and it does treat romance like a box tick, but I wouldn't say this is a problem just in YA.
About the prose... yeah, its diggestible and easy, I 100% aggre, but as someone who does enjoy YA I really don't mind that it is simple (simple, not bad!) as longs as it manages to deliver interesting stories, themes and emotions. The morale limitations on characters though I feel like it's totally a matter of personal taste, which is totally fine. There are some morally grey characters in many YA, just not hardcore grimdark twisted morally grey characters. I don't think it's because of editorial limitations, just that fans are not generally into that sort of thing. In my experience YA tends to be much more lighthearted and hopeful than (most current) adult fantasy. Again, I just personally think that point is a matter of taste.
Anyways, I liked both videos a lot even though I don't necessarily aggree with a lot of it but it was pretty interesting to hear form someone so well read and whose opinion I usually agree. I hope to see some more videos up of this kind in the future!
I personally like to read characcter with fatal flaws, like pride or bad tempers, I think when Dan was talking about Protagonists limitations, that's what he's talking about. You can't repeatedly describe a character has "dark" and "edgy" without reason.
@@cutecobra9696 just finished reading Eliza and her monsters. Contemporary YA. Eliza has a terrible temper and she treats everyone like garbage. She's also a liar, she overworks herself and has some serious self esteem problems. It's an extremely good example of written teenage angst that feels dark and real and not like "that X-Men people" he mentions, cause it's not aesthetic focused or for shock value. Great portrayal of mental health problems too. Just an example at the top of my head.
@@MissGraves6 That sounds like an awesome character! But not every main character in YA is as interesting as her.
@@cutecobra9696 not every adult fantasy character is interesting either! But saying there's no complex or dark characters in YA isn't true either.
@@MissGraves6 True. You should recommend that book to Dan, then.
Tamora Pierce.
Tamora Pierce.
Tamora Piiiiiierce! :D
She's been writing in the same universe since the 80s, and you can definitely watch her style evolve as the YA category does. But even within the "limitations" of YA, she does a fantastic job of exploring complex themes and characters, and a lot of that dark side of people and society.
I just. Adore her. So if you're looking for a gem, I would suggest her.
Yessssss 👍
She's been one of my favourite authors.
Was reading through the comment section for this! I loved the Protector of the Small Quartet so much growing up, such an excellent series truly.
@@LeeAnnC PotS is probably my favorite series from her. Kel is everything I love in a hero, and all without the aid of magic. Just her mind, body, and heart, and a whole lot of discipline!
Yes, all of her things, And they were very influential on me growing up.
Wild Magic was the first book of hers I read, way back in the sixth grade. Absolutely love her, and I love how later installments, such as the Trickster's Duology and the Bekka Cooper trilogy, grow up with the reader.
This remind me of something an older friend said years ago: "I'm looking forward to when I got to my mid-thirties, because once a nerd becomes older that 30-years-old, the nerd-geek-otaku-gamer comunity start to treat all their oppinions like words of wisdom from a respectable elder... No matter how stupid those opinions really are"
To be fair to YA, most modern adult fiction has the same issues: oversimplified writing, forced romance, adhering very closely to tropes that are popular, over cautious and stilted character development, telling the reader what to think and feel in a condescending way. The difference is, when an author chooses not to do these things they are not pushed into another genre because there is nowhere to go.
I'm 64 and an avid reader since i was 8 - you do a great job Dan. I like your balanced approach and your insights and I've learnt a lot from your work as well.
My problem with the YA genre comes from more of a bookseller problem. I was constantly trying to juggle the expectation of kids not wanting to read "kids book" like Percy Jackson because they're in the kids section and not wanting romance, while also juggling the parent's expectation of what content they're comfortable with the child reading. Especially if they have a young child with a high reading level and the schools are telling them they have to read at a certain level but not giving them a list of book.
“ the romances are just shoehorned in with no real attempt to have any chemistry or buildup”
Daniel, you’re a wheel of time fan
afaik he never claimed romance was why he's a fan... just saying.
What, you aren't a fan of people awkwardly marrying because a prophecy said they would, for shame.
@@Nukestarmaster I'm currently reading Wheel of Time, second book. Thx for spoiler man, really appreciate it.
Sam I was absolutely thinking the same thing.
I think the point of the romances in wheel of time was to show that when you’re on the seat of power, you don’t always get what you want, which is why so many of them were unwanted and uncomfortable.
I'm always reading a few books at once; I'm usually reading a celebrated literary classic AND a YA book at the same time. It's sort of like watching a Criterion film and then following it up with a sitcom. Just gives the brain a break, haha.
This is exactly my habit, too!
I'm a teen librarian and spend a lot of time thinking about this. From a reading perspective, I'm an adult woman who wants to read adult fantasy written by and for women in addition to the awesome fantasy I grew up on and continue to read written primarily by men. From a professional standpoint, I'm a teen librarian beyond frustrated that publishers marketing aged-up YA to adult women has pushed teens out of YA. I read about 200 YA books a year as part of my job, and I also read every professional and review publication out there, paying a lot of attention to trends in publishing. While I agree with many of your points made here, I think this topic is impossible to discuss without fully diving into the fact that the majority of adult YA readers are female, and that YA fantasy has become a stopgap of sorts to make up for the lack of books written by women in adult fantasy. This is a problem that I hope becomes a non-issue - there has been a rise in female authorship in adult fantasy over the past few years and hopefully in 10 years this is a moot point. I was disappointed that your suggestion for a well written female protagonist was a book written by a man - it sort of highlights the problem, no? Not to say men can't write awesome female protagonists, but that as a woman I also want female voices writing my female characters in addition to those written by men. If you look at the books that are most popular right now in YA fantasy, you see a variety of authors from a variety of ethnicities and cultural backgrounds, including LGBTQ+ authors and characters. While there are standout adult fantasies written by non-white women - The Poppy War, The Daevabad Trilogy, anything by NK Jemisin - on the whole, adult fantasy is not as diverse as YA and that is a consideration to make when discussing why adults might turn to YA. People - particularly women - who are avid fantasy readers want more than a small handful of diverse choices to pick from. YA tends to change faster than the adult publishing machine, since it is already attuned to the quickly changing interests of teenagers and was better prepared to adapt to the call for diverse books. I know adult publishing is catching up, but it isn't there yet and it is a huge reason why there is such a substantial YA fantasy adult readership. YA is still going to have hallmarks of books targeted for teens, since it's ostensibly still trying to market itself as teen lit - angst, romance, easier to digest prose... but maybe a better understanding of why so many women avidly read YA fantasy despite the flaws could better highlight the disparities in what is marketed to men and women.
I read a lot of female fantasy authors ... but they tend to be authors that have been writing fantasy for a VERY long time. I haven't really found that many new ones coming through that have gripped me in the adult fantasy genre. I love trudi canavan, Sara Douglass, Mercedes Lackey, Anne Macaffrey. Yeah ... you can see the sort of list this is... though the first two are actually Australian Authors which is kinda awesome. I will have to check out those other authors you've mentioned and I have heard Daniel mention Poppy War a few times now so I will need to check that out too!
Anyway I do think your point is very accurate. It's all about the way it is marketed and also the time. I find YA books are pushed at me constantly but I have to go searching for adult fantasy. Outside a handful of booktubers if they're interested in fantasy they often are reading YA because they can get through more books at once. It's the rare ones that regularly read Adult fantasy because they often take longer to read.
I think it's a better idea to read books based on their content not on the gender of their author.
nubemuffin men rarely succeed at writing female leads well. Women want to read books written by women because they generally do a better at writing their own gender. Simple facts.
@@wildconstantia6073 that's not a very progressive thing of you to say Monique. Would it be fair for me to say that I (as a man) prefer to read books written by men because women rarely succeed at writing male characters? I imagine if I said that I'd be called some nasty names. However, I would never say that because I personally believe that men and women both can write books equally and we should consider the content on the pages instead of the gender of the author. JK Rowling (a woman) wrote the most famous book series of all time with a solely male lead. Robert Jordan wrote the wheel of time which is widely considered to be one of the best fantasy series ever with a large cast of female characters that receive a lot praise for their depth.
Not to disregard your opinions here but there is an awful awful lot of identity politics
for beautiful prose, you can't beat Laini Taylor, particularly Strange the Dreamer. For dark/edgy protagonist and also pretty fantastic prose, Six of Crows by Leigh Bardugo is excellent
I absolutely STAN Strange the Dreamer. So underrated! Six of Crows is a must-read, as well!
YEESS!!! Six of Crows!!!
I was searching hoping someone mentioned Laini Taylor in regards to beautiful prose!
Rick Riordans series will always be my favorite. No because did nostalgia but because I think they are genuinely good. I don’t know if YOU would include his writing in the “bad prose” category, but I love it. I’ll use Percy as an example. In the books told fr9m his perspective there are a lot of sarcastic comments, but he’s just acting like a REAL teen. And that sort of comedic element makes it a lot easier for me to read personally. Also for the romance aspect (I’ll use Percy and Annabeth as an example) it’s not just “shoehorned in”, it’s been built up for the MULTIPLE series they have appeared in, and it grows in a realistic way. These are just my thoughts though.
Also Rick is a god writing female characters, more male authors (except the ones like Gaiman and Daddy Sanderson) should learn from him.
'The Goose Girl' and 'Princess Academy' both by Shannon Hale are really underrated, both books introduced me to the fantasy genre outside of Narnia and both involve great character growth and I still believe they hold up to this day. Please give these books more attention cause they deserve it!!
Princess Academy!!!!!!!! that was the very first book that made me actually interested in reading GOD i havent read it again since i was like 9 years old. i loved it so much as a kid.
YES!!! I never see these books discussed anywhere!
I'm not even sure how I found out about them but these books made Shannon Hale one of my favourite authors!
Princess Academy! That's a good one, I know there's a series, but the first one is a gem. I read it 4th grade and would honestly read it again.
...so you mean The Goose Girl wasn't a fever dream? I knew someone else had to have read it.
Oooohh I miss Princess Academy
The romance thing is real and its also targeted at kids who dont understand love and think that a crush is love. It appeals to them because that's how kids see people they are attracted to. They have "strong" attractions to them for like 2 weeks, and move onto someone else. None of it means anything, just like it seems not to in the book. Hormones are just out of whack.
My biggest problem with this is that it actually perpetuates the immaturity. Kids read it done this way so they are encouraged to believe that is how love really is. Then they act on it and then authors continue the cycle "because it is realistic".
Stop writing down to their level. They are capable of much more.
Read the Bartimaeus Trilogy. It has some of the best prose in YA I've ever seen.
Karissa Hammond shit Bartimaeus was a really fun read back in the day.
Also sabriel
His other series Lockwood & Co is really solid too
I love the book to death. I forgot the name too; you're a savior.
@@FirstCommandmentRigorist 😀
I would have to recommend the Chaos Walking trilogy by Patrick Ness (which I’m happy to see a lot of other people in the comments recommend) and The Raven Cycle series by Maggie Stiefvater. Both have some of the most beautiful writing I’ve seen in a fantasy ya. For the Raven Cycle, while I liked the Raven Boys, the next book in the series, The Dream Thieves, really establishes the series as one of the greatest in my opinion.
I'm 45. Simply love Chaos Walking trilogy.
Didn't even know or noticed it really was YA.
Yes they're young protagonists, but the story telling and the writing, the world building, is all very, very mature.
Yes to Chaos Walking!! Love it!
I recommend Strange the Dreamer & Muse of Nightmares by Laini Taylor if you want some beautiful prose! (And great story!)
Light. It would probably be a miracle if Daniel Greene will love those. Just saying. I'm a fan of DG since he has only 44,000 subs so I have understood his criteria on what to read and what to DNF.
I really do love this story, but I think the overall prose is fairly simple. It’s very stylistic - for sure! - but I don’t think it’s exceedingly complex.
@@deanryanmartin So you've read both books? I think it's weird that you think just because you've been a fan for a long time that means you definitely know what he likes lol. That's just ridiculous.
@@lesleythegreater Not yet, maybe next year. Just saying though, if we will see a Strange The Dreamer review here then we can say I'm wrong. If not, then you're right.
I don't think he would like those books, they are very romance heavy and feature Insta-love which I think he said was his least favorite romance trope.
One of the best YA series (though maybe it's middle school now?) was Lemony Snicket. Fantastic prose to the point of even criticizing readers who skim through books to "say they read it", complex themes and vocabulary, incredible story arcs, and the world was unique and wonderful.
The Netflix series was also one of the most perfect adaptations I've ever seen. Like I always thought A Series of Unfortunate Events was pretty much unadaptable because of how absurd it was but they really nailed it!
@@akd.29 as much as I love NPH, I haven't watched the series. The original movie adaptation with Jim Carrey was too perfect, it encapsulated the weirdness and childish wonder and struggle while also being bleak, dark, mysterious, hopeful, and engaging. Plus, Jim Carrey acting as a talentless actor acting magnificently as a raptor. Can't be beat 😂
I thought that was kids. They were in the 8+ section in our library. 12+ I can see as YA, though a lot of YA was labeled differently even.
@@MissMoontree from where they are in bookstores (and honestly the content itself) I'd place it at middle school, with the tv series definitely YA. Kids I classify as anything written for ages 8 and under with ample photographs, personally.
Talks about romances that sort of just pop up out of nowhere as a bad thing*
* Looks at wheel of time and Sanderson*
*looks back to Daniel*
Pot kettle, black
I've just begin reading Wheel of time yesterday and I've been cringing at Egwene/Rand interaction since the first chapter...
Clément Denis oh you don’t even know what’s coming
watch his video on problems of wheel of time. romances are mentioned there
LMAO I commented the same thing, it made me want to slam my head against a wall for the entire series
Sanderson has gotten a lot better at romances (Wax/Steris). But either way, I don't need him to be that good at them since it's never the focus, so it's never been a point of contention for me.
The prose in The Book Thief by Markus Zusak is probably the best I have ever read, including all adult fiction I've read. That book also touches on very dark themes and was published in 2005 I think :)
The only books I've read with better prose, are Name of The Wind and Wise Mans Fear
Book Thief is YA? It just reads like standard fiction to me
YA fantasy got me into reading and I think it was a great introduction for someone whose native is not English. Now I'm ready to jump to other genres with more complex concepts but seeing Cassandra Clare and Leigh Bardugo evolving as writers will always please me
Daniel has become the epitome of quality shit posting on book tube and I love it. Not only do we get quality content and reviews, it’s also funny as hell and enjoyable to watch.
I would say that Erin Morgenstern (The Night Circus, The Starless Sea) has some beautiful prose, her writing flows very elegantly and she can paint excellent visions with her words.
Those are categorised as adult books though
Brandon Sanderson's Skyward and Steelheart are my favorite YA. He is also my favorite author so I am biased in that. I think the simpler prose and less villainous characters do make YA a choice when you want a light fun read, which I think is often why people like YA.
I don't see enough people talking about Skyward. It's such an enjoyable read, probably one of the funniest books I ever read.
Finally found another Steelheart fan. I’m surprised booktubers haven’t picked this one up more. Loved this book (and the whole Reckoners series)
also love steelheart though yeah Sanderson just does his own thing
You just answered a critical question I had - Skyward was the only Sanderson book they had at the library today and I've been recommended his work so many times...50 pages in, and I can't get over just how young the prose skews. Thought I was going mad / had gotten very old indeed, because I wasn't expecting such over-cautious prose.
@@ShaleNinja skyward is also pretty different from his other works aside from the prose because it’s the first straight up Sci-fi book he published. Some of his future cosmere books are definitely going to be sic-fi though, he’s stated he’d like to do a space opera for the final era of Mistborn, of which there will be four eras. (Two of which are out now, the second era’s final book is close to releasing)
I read this like "My problem with ya fantasy" like you had a Brooklyn accent or something and it still works.
Yup
Daniel, first off, I want to say that you're one of my favorite booktubers, period. And I agreed with everything you said in the last two vids. But you don't have to defend yourself so much. You're going to get pushback either way. I think if you're respectful as you state your positions (which you were), you don't have to try so hard to prevent offense. You can't control other people's reactions, and I think the mood of your content suffered because you tried. That said, thank you for these vids. I'd like to see more booktubers honestly critiquing this genre.
The new Hunger Games book about Snow for sure goes into his deep side and shows that characters don't always turn good.
That book is amazing.
In general I completely agree with this video, and you raised some points I hadn't thought of before, being someone who self-professedly doesn't like YA? There's so much wrong. I cringe at any book with romance in it now just because I'm scarred by YA. Yet, I'd like to say! There's a YA/Children's author, Frances Hardinge, she has impeccable prose. Absolutely wonderful. She even won the costa book award for The Lie Tree. Not just the Children's Costa Book Award, but the overall Costa Book Award. I know you were making a generalisation, but I felt like I had to scream this into the void a bit because she's DEFINITELY exempt.
OH WAIT! You asked! Yes please, read The Lie Tree. The main character has very realistic maturity for a fourteen year old but actually acts like a human. Also Egg & Spoon by Gregory Maguire is written absolutely beautifully.
I find that middle-grade is actually far more well written than YA. 100%. Middle-grade is more where you get the "children's books for everyone" like Narnia was. Children's/YA unfortunately sometimes gets grouped together and gets confusing. Genres are an absolute mess.
Deeplight is just an amazing book
a friend sent this to me bc they thought i was subtweeting you, but i actually found both parts to be really interesting! i’ve been thinking a lot about genre vs category in fantasy and ya myself lately, so it was great to get a self-proclaimed ya outsider’s perspective. also, i appreciate that you mentioned that you’re coming at this with your own biases - so many people never do that when talking about genres outside their wheelhouse. something i did notice though is that a lot of the generalizations you mention are similar to what i’ve heard said about non-YA genre fiction too - from fantasy to romance, and i think a lot of those perceptions can often come down to audience fit. you make a good point when you say that YA isn’t for everyone. When you write, you have to write for your intended audience - not all audiences, so of course there will be people who pick up a general fantasy novel, YA novel, romance, etc and think it lacks depth or strong prose - it’s all about bias and preference. for example, you seem to really value stories that are more grim or dark, which is fair, so of course a category that tends to skew more hopeful may not be the right fit. im def the opposite - i find myself rolling my eyes when a book wades into grimdark territory. also, like you mentioned with finding romance in YA fantasy frustrating, I’ve often felt similar when forcing myself to read many of the pillars of fantasy like Name of the Wind or Game of Thrones. i struggled to find much nuance and depth in the characters and relationships, but once i broadened my reading to include more diverse authors and focused less on trying to read the “must-reads,” i found stories i truly loved. this isn’t to say those books truly do lack nuance or are bad - i just wasn’t the right reader to find those things in the novels. i do think maybe we have differing views of what mainstream YA is though, but likely you’d also have different views about what is mainstream fantasy than someone who has never read from the genre before.
Know this series ain't exactly new but, highly recommend the Earthsea Cycle and basically anything Ursula K.LeGuin because Earthsea is amazing! It truly was something ahead of its time. That is all. Honourable mention also goes to Lois Lowry because that woman is just as much of an absolute writing goddess.
Daniel: "there're strong female protagonists In YA."
0.00001 percent of viewers: "HOW DARE YOU."
Die hard YA reader here! So it’s definitely a pet peeve of mine when fantasy lovers completely disregard YA lit as juvenile or not as legitimate as adult fantasy, but I can totally understand and agree with some of the qualms people have with it! (Predominately unnecessary romance, lack of gritty realism, etc.) I don’t agree that HP is YA, I definitely see it as MG even though it darkens and intensifies as the series progresses, however it definitely did revolutionize fantasy markets for MG, YA and Adult fantasy.
One of the things I like about YA fantasy is that it isn't necessary 5000 page epic story. These fantastic worlds can be build small story at the time. I feel dissapointed some times when the language is sanitized, or they feel the need to still have the compulsory romance.
Tamora Pierce! One of my favorite authors of all time, I started reading her works around 7th grade.
I read her before Harry Potter!
I still prefer the circle series to Potter. Oddly enough, they were published the same year.
Character depth is my issue with YA. I love the genre, but ever since I shifted the bulk of my reading to high fantasy this issue has become more and more prevalent. The YA authors, in my opinion, are the best at developing new and interesting world with wild concepts and set ups, but I’m always left wonder how much further the world and story could go if the characters were more flushed out. At this point I read YA books after reading more adult content when I need a cool down. I read it when I need something fun and interesting, but not too mentally or emotionally draining.
I've found this too. I really need to make an emotional connection with a character when I read, and YA's lack of character depth bothers me, almost enough to drive me away from the genre entirely.
Laini Taylor's Daughter of Smoke and Bone trilogy has a beautiful prose
Oh my goodness, you showing Hatchet and Narnia books lit a spark of childhood nostalgia.
YA: The Seven Realms series by Cinda Williams Chima or A Monster Calls by Patrick Ness
Adult: The Night Angel series by Brent Weeks
Hope this helps 😁❤️
I LOVE the Seven Realms series!!! Can't recommend it enough!
On book 2 of seven realms. It’s not bad. Nothing remarkable yet but it’s going good.
Joe Courtney My favorite was book 3 so keep going! ☺️
I haven’t read the seven realms in particular but Chima does seem to have talent as an author
I really like it as well.
I'm just waiting for the video where you are a pair of floating eyes in space
I didnt know I wanted this until now
How is ACOTAR(Court of series) considered YA when its super explicit. LOL
Sexism. Publishers push female authors into YA even when the books should be adult. I think they are actually rebranding that series to make it more adult, but most don’t get that opportunity
Yeah, that series is like the pioneer of the term “New Adult”. Like I don’t understand how there can be _another_ demographic in between young adult and adult like hUH. whatever advertising you do you
How did I just hear Catcher in the Rye be thought of as YA?
YA used to be a different thing, it used to not talk down to young adults.
(Catcher’s absolutely boring prose notwithstanding, of course)
@@skylar5790 From what I can tell, NA is more or less an attempt to extend the norms and conventions of YA outside of YA's typical age bracket. It's not really a demographic in of itself.
It's supposed to be NA. SJM says so herself. Everytime I was recommended it on booktube, the readers mentioned it being NA, so I don't really see why so many people think that. I guess they just see SJM and group all her works together. 🤷♀️
As a bookseller, I’d like to add that YA helps to lead teen readers to age appropriate books. Of course, we still need to read and research a lot to match readers with stories that best match their reading level, readiness for different content AND the genres they prefer. Many people stop reading in their teens, so it’s super valuable to have good books to recommend and keep them enjoying reading, hopefully for life 😊
daniel talking about his frustration at romances in YA - my EXACT frustration with romances in wheel of time lmao
Depends on the romance...
Nynaeve and Lan is very well done, Rand and Min is also good.
As frustrating as it is, Perrin and Faile is also believable.
Egwene and Gawyn, Berelain and Galad etc? Yes, those are definitely not well executed.
@@judgekraken1710 I kinda gave up on the series after book 7 (I'm still planning on rereading it though) and I always loved the relationship between Lan and Nynaeve.
@@disneybunny45 WoT is by far my favourite series of all time, and let me tell you; books 7 - 10 are an absolute slog. ESPECIALLY 8 and 10. If you can I would highly recommend getting the audio book versions of 8, 9, and 10. From 11 onwards though, it's amazing again. Not to say that there aren't great scenes in those books, the slog is just a lot on first read. Don't expect great romance though, they aren't the best.
@@judgekraken1710 I really never liked Rand and Min, probably because I much prefered Rand and Elayne. She was pretty much the only character in the books who decided what she wanted and went for it.
I gave up on most of the plot at around book 9? Just read the parts with Mat because I couldn’t care less about the others. I’m considering re-reading the series now to see if I like it better as an adult.
As someone who has largely outgrown the YA genre but still occasionally genuinely enjoy them, this is such a great video. The analysis is spot on. I think people just tend to want to be on such opposite side of things sometimes, while they don’t have to be. The “limitations” issue for example, for some they might find it frustrating cause there are just places the characters wouldn’t go to, things they won’t do, but to others it might be reassuring? Like sometimes I need a book where I don’t have to be anxious about how far things will go, or that it might traumatize or upset me. What is “predictable” to some may be “reassuring” to others.
My 4th grade teacher read Hatchet to us and I was captivated by how quiet and lonely the setting felt to me. I never thought of it as a young adult book because I always thought of stories like Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, teen dystopia, and so on
I agree with most arguments you make. I would recommend Spinning silver by naomi novik, its written very well, but not very prose-y.
I loved that book but only after reading your comment I released that it was actually YA. I usually don't like YA due to reasons that Daniel mentioned, but Spinning silver did not feel like YA at all. I guess Naomi Novik is just that good of a writer :)
@@vaidasmasys3764 I guess spinning silver didn't adhere to a lot of the tropes he mentioned. I don't recall the details because I read it long ago, but I definitely remember not wanting to put that down.
Not to mention it didn't contain the "she let out a breath she had not been holding" kind of language that makes me want to roll my eyes.
Didn’t realize it was a YA book. Loved it though - I do think some the writers in YA are really exciting. I get the impression that most of the big YA authors are women - which is so cool. (Or it could be that I only read YA which is recommended ??)
As far as I know Spinning Silver is considered Adult fantasy. At least, that's the section bookstore have it under.
@@JudieTroy Yea Spinning Silver and Uprooted are definitely not YA.
Six of Crows and Crooked Kingdom. Has romance everywhere, but I feel they are earned and natural.
"I LIKE YOUR STUPID FACE!"
Yeah the farthest they go is holding hands without gloves and that had me. It’s my favourite book ❤️
"I would have come for you. And if I couldn't walk, I'd crawl to you, and no matter how broken we were, we'd fight our way out together-knives drawn, pistols blazing. Because that's what we do. We never stop fighting." - Kaz Brecker
"Is my tie straight?"
I really like the characters in that series, just kind of hate the way it’s written.
Prose! Off the top of my head: The Raven Cycle, Daughter of Smoke and Bone trilogy (loved them both!)
Dosab trilogy is one of my favorites too!
La passe miroir from christel dabos, it is a realy great French saga of ya fantasy, and the prose is exceptional !
People were more welcoming to you because you’re good at what you do, Daniel. Keep it up! 👍
3:05 lmao he didn't film that segment long enough to fit with the footage so he slowed it down. I love it.
I was once talking about my frustrations with a YA book to my dad. I hated how predictable it was and complained that there was so much in the world that was undeveloped when he pulled Eye of the World off the bookshelf. I still read and enjoy YA, but that moment led to a long time love affair with epic fantasy.
Chaos Walking by Patrick Ness gob smacked me so hard. It is the pinnacle of YA imo. The writing. The peril. The feels. Oh man, I can't wait to re-read it.
I would strongly agree with this. Especially because I think the issues Daniel has with prose in YA books aren't an issue in this series. It's definitely fast-paced, but the quality of the prose never suffers because of how fast the plot moves. Plus Manchee is just a great character.
Prentiss is one of the coolest antagonists I’ve seen in YA.
@@lukamarjanovic4665 Mancheeeeee
Daniel, I am 55 and I think your opinions are well thought out and your explanations are clear and understandable. I have enjoyed watching a good number of your videos and have even picked up some books that you recommended! I also respect how you are perfectly willing to admit that you are wrong, a lot of much older and (supposedly) wiser people still can't do that!
Maybe I will even (possibly) give Robert Jordan another go!
I recently read Star Wars: Heir To The Empire by Timothy Zahn while in middle school, and was AMAZED by how different it felt to most other books I’ve read in the past couple of years, those mostly being YA. Although it mostly uses pre-made characters, they feel more fleshed out than ever, and the new ones are extremely memorable. It just felt addictively well written. I had know idea this was a big thing until finding these videos, so thanks!
The Queen's Thief is one of the cleverest series I've ever read, especially from the second book on. Also, very underrated, The Lumatere Chronicles. Great writing and characters, and it deals with some pretty serious issues, such as displacement and trauma.
novi sob I really wish I could re-live reading The Thief for the first time. I’ve never felt so thoroughly tricked by an author, or been quite so happy about it.
@@HannahLikesThings Same, can't wait to read the finale this year and get fooled once again 😁
I was so thrilled to find The Queens Thief series as an adult looking to get back into YA. Im glad to see it mentioned. How did it take me so long to find?
novi sob I found the first book a little boring and slow paced and idk whether to continue the series, does it pick up in later books?
Excellent recommendations. Lumatere Chronicles is written by Melina Marchetta, who has also written contemporary YA with mature themes and beautiful prose. (Prose good enough to be recommended to Daniel to check out.) I'd say it's a great counter example to all the (very fair) points Daniel made in this video.
You were very spot on with the idea that YA is being marketed to people who are curently adults who grew up reading YA, instead of actualy current teenagers. I follow a lot of librarians and in the past few years I have seen a sharp increase in people bemoaning that "Younger YA" is harder and harder to find. MG can't cover everything, there's 14/15 year olds for whom MG books are too young and below their reading level, but who can't connect to YA stories because most of those books are trying to target to 25 year olds who want snackable stories. And what's there for teenagers that aren't really into romance? You know what happens to kids who can't find books they love? They stop reading. It sucks
And a lot of these adult YA readers, like you said, get frustrated with younger YA, because while they do want snackable and fast-paced stories, they also want more exploration of dark themes and to be treated like adults. "New Adult" is basically exactly this, and it has potential but it isn't as commerically viable so books that really shoudl be New Adult get pushed into YA instead and forced to simplify themselves for the sake of at least nominaly still appealing to children. These two audiences that are so radically different get stuffed together and are both getting a worse reading experience for it.
This really speaks to me. I’m an adult who enjoys the more whimsical nature and less visceral feel books targeted to younger audiences have (Chronicles of Narnia, Hobbit, Harry Potter) but it feels like there’s nothing much out there now. Middle grade is 8-12 and tons of books have 12 year old MCs, and there are plenty of YAs with 16 and up, but 13-15 seems like a dead zone. Looking back, that is around the age I stopped reading for fun.
For what it’s worth luckily some books are still finding success. A Wizard’s Guide to a Defensive Baking has a 14 year old protagonist and I hear nothing but praise for it (it really is quite good).
The first few minutes were so passive aggressive and I think it's awesome 😂
My favorite YA series with good prose:
Young Wizards, the first books are more so for kids, but the development, especially later on with regards to loss, are excellent.
Artemis Fowl, the writing always reminded me of Clancy and while in the end the protagonist ends up as a good character the first several books defiantly portray a antihero with solid development.
Airborn Series, the romance parts can be juvenile and cringy but the prose and world building are excellent and the stories themselves are awesome adventures.
Garth Nix. The Sabriel series is a genre all its own with excellent writing and I thoroughly enjoyed the Keys to the Kingdom series.
KingNickSA I forgot about Artemis fowl! Oh my god reading this comment was like getting a war flashback
I recently read The lefthanded bookseller of London by Garth Nix and was so pleasantly surprised! I’ll definitely want to read more of this author.
Harry Potter is now shelved in 9-13 years (middle school) old in my local library and bookstores.
As a big YA fan, both when growing and slightly now so I can recommend books to my siblings, I have many of the same problem. My biggest one is the romance. I 100 percent agree that it feels forced into almost every single one. BUT many also do a great job. I think Rick Riordan does a fantastic job at developing relationships of friends, enemies, and couples. My favorite though is the legend series by Marie Lu where even with the great world and action scenes I would completely label it a romance in my mind. Very well done