If I might add to 11:40, a landscape photographer named Tim Parkin ran a test using Portra and was able to measure LV differences of 17 to 19 stops in one scene - I believe just developed regularly in C41. He was likely really pushing it there, but just wanted to add that. All your in-depth work on development, mainly with this series on Harman Phoenix, have been phenomenal and among the best deep-dives on testing different kinds of developing I've seen! also I really like your intro, it's so friendly :D One other thing is this series made me really consider what you can do with different kinds of development for color film. It seems people mainly do that for B&W, to tune things to a huge degree, but you've done a bit here when you tested the effects of mixing steps in the E-6 video. I wonder how the E-6 first developer, the b&w developer, compares to other b&w developers and whether you can get any desirable results by exchanging it for another. But that's a different matter. The XPan shots you show throughout this vid are stunning! Needless to say I'm excited when a new video of yours pops up in my feed because they've all been excellent!
I just want to start by saying how much I appreciate your kind words. This project is frankly exhausting at times and comments like this help me keep going. If any C-41 film would be able to surpass the cinema films it would be Portra! I'd not heard this but I'm not surprised. And I'm glad you like the intro :) it started because I didn't know what to do with my hands in the beginning of videos and became a thing very quickly. I would be interested in comparing different developers as the first dev at some stage - all I really know is that it affords high contrast to the initial negative, so I'd need to research a lot more but that would be very fun to dive into.
Amazing video and effort. Question, what is a 1 stop, 2 stop, 3 stop push defined as for C-41 and ECN-2? If for example you are getting a 1.5 stop speed increase for a 3 stop push, then I (thinking in BW terms) would call that a 1.5 stop push, not a 3 stop push. Am I thinking about this wrong?
This is all very hand-wavy and I don't know if there's standardised terminology, but you are thinking about it right. When I share my images online I get around this by saying something like Harman Phoenix 200 (@ 500) Bellini 3-Bath C-41 kit (+3, 38 °C) Which would indicate I'm shooting at 500 with 3 stops of overdevelopment specifically, rather than calling it a 3 stop push which isn't strictly correct as you've noted. It wouldn't be correct to call it a 1.5 stop push as that implies 1.5 stops of overdevelopment! It's only strictly a 3 stop push if you underexpose 3 stops and overdevelop 3 stops.
@@Shaka1277 So, phrasing it differently, how much is a stop of overdevelopment? Is it 1 degree warmer development temperature? To me, 1 stop of overdevelopment is the overdevelopment that will get me a more or less equivalent middle gray if I underexpose by 1 stop, and that will be a different increase in development time for each film and developer combination. So I *would* call it a 1.5 stop push, if that overdevelopment was only buying me 1.5 stops of speed.
There are prescribed time extensions for pushing, eg +30 seconds for 1 stop of overdevelopment. So regardless of how you expose, a 3:45 dev time is +1 vs the standard 3:15 which would be +0. A 3 stop push would require +1:30 of dev so we can't truly call this either a 1.5 stop push (film wouldn't be developed long enough) or a 3 stop push (film wasn't underexposed by 3 stops).
As someone currently developing phoenix in Bellini ECN2 who is colourblind and struggling to dial the teal out in lightroom you settings would be appreciated.
Hi Paul, it took me far too long to figure out how to do this but I was able to host the preset on my website. It's downloadable as a .zip because I can't host the .xmp file directly, if you're still interested. www.shaka1277.com/phoenix
@@Shaka1277 what an amazing father's day present. I will check this out and and let you know how it goes. Thankyou 😁 I actually have some xpan queued up awaiting scanning, so perfect timing.
Honestly, very unlikely. It's too much work for me to do this with any regularity. There is something I'd like to do with the Vision3 films but it's nothing as deep as this.
I like your work, but you really gotta stop saying stuff all the time like "Dye science is so complex, it's hard to summarize concisely" Come on dude. You clearly just barely/don't understand it, which is fine, but don't ACT like you mastered it all and totally know what's up, but "just had trouble summarizing it quickly enough".
I'm talking broadly, in the sense that it's hard to rationalise how exchanging a hydroxy group for a sulphonamide changes the absorption spectra and molar extinction coefficient. How dyes work as a concept, and how colour dyes work for film are relatively simple and no I don't understand it fully (likely never will). I've personally made a compound series where varying an alkyl chain from 1 to 10 carbons resulted in one fluorescent compound and nine that don't fluoresce. That kind of stuff is hard to rationalise and communicate in any meaningful way in a 15-20 minute video. Consider the actual audience for film videos on RUclips. I'm not claiming to be a major authority on this, but you're being a bit harsh. I will take that on board and try to be clearer about where my limits lie vs what's just beyond the scope of a video.
I just want to say thank you for putting all this work in and creating this incredibly detailed resource of knowledge about pheonix.
The ideal chemistry lesson to wind down with after a long week! 😂
I wish your video existed when I was a highschooler and dreading chemistry. THIS is interesting! Cheers
Loving this series so far
If I might add to 11:40, a landscape photographer named Tim Parkin ran a test using Portra and was able to measure LV differences of 17 to 19 stops in one scene - I believe just developed regularly in C41. He was likely really pushing it there, but just wanted to add that.
All your in-depth work on development, mainly with this series on Harman Phoenix, have been phenomenal and among the best deep-dives on testing different kinds of developing I've seen!
also I really like your intro, it's so friendly :D
One other thing is this series made me really consider what you can do with different kinds of development for color film. It seems people mainly do that for B&W, to tune things to a huge degree, but you've done a bit here when you tested the effects of mixing steps in the E-6 video. I wonder how the E-6 first developer, the b&w developer, compares to other b&w developers and whether you can get any desirable results by exchanging it for another. But that's a different matter.
The XPan shots you show throughout this vid are stunning!
Needless to say I'm excited when a new video of yours pops up in my feed because they've all been excellent!
I just want to start by saying how much I appreciate your kind words. This project is frankly exhausting at times and comments like this help me keep going.
If any C-41 film would be able to surpass the cinema films it would be Portra! I'd not heard this but I'm not surprised. And I'm glad you like the intro :) it started because I didn't know what to do with my hands in the beginning of videos and became a thing very quickly.
I would be interested in comparing different developers as the first dev at some stage - all I really know is that it affords high contrast to the initial negative, so I'd need to research a lot more but that would be very fun to dive into.
How do you not have more Subs?!? You make some great videos. Keep up the good work!
Amazing video and effort. Question, what is a 1 stop, 2 stop, 3 stop push defined as for C-41 and ECN-2? If for example you are getting a 1.5 stop speed increase for a 3 stop push, then I (thinking in BW terms) would call that a 1.5 stop push, not a 3 stop push. Am I thinking about this wrong?
This is all very hand-wavy and I don't know if there's standardised terminology, but you are thinking about it right. When I share my images online I get around this by saying something like
Harman Phoenix 200 (@ 500)
Bellini 3-Bath C-41 kit (+3, 38 °C)
Which would indicate I'm shooting at 500 with 3 stops of overdevelopment specifically, rather than calling it a 3 stop push which isn't strictly correct as you've noted.
It wouldn't be correct to call it a 1.5 stop push as that implies 1.5 stops of overdevelopment!
It's only strictly a 3 stop push if you underexpose 3 stops and overdevelop 3 stops.
@@Shaka1277 So, phrasing it differently, how much is a stop of overdevelopment? Is it 1 degree warmer development temperature?
To me, 1 stop of overdevelopment is the overdevelopment that will get me a more or less equivalent middle gray if I underexpose by 1 stop, and that will be a different increase in development time for each film and developer combination. So I *would* call it a 1.5 stop push, if that overdevelopment was only buying me 1.5 stops of speed.
There are prescribed time extensions for pushing, eg +30 seconds for 1 stop of overdevelopment. So regardless of how you expose, a 3:45 dev time is +1 vs the standard 3:15 which would be +0. A 3 stop push would require +1:30 of dev so we can't truly call this either a 1.5 stop push (film wouldn't be developed long enough) or a 3 stop push (film wasn't underexposed by 3 stops).
@@Shaka1277 thanks, that answers my question :)
Great work! Would you say that ECN-2 is now your preferred developer for Phoenix?
Thanks! I reckon that if I weren't still experimenting with it, I would go with ECN-2, yeah!
As someone currently developing phoenix in Bellini ECN2 who is colourblind and struggling to dial the teal out in lightroom you settings would be appreciated.
I'm away on a trip but will get back to you in a couple of days with precise settings, or a link to a preset if that works out easier to share!
@@Shaka1277 appreciated
@@Shaka1277 I've just processed another phoenix in ecn2 and I'd be keen to try your preset.
Hi Paul, it took me far too long to figure out how to do this but I was able to host the preset on my website. It's downloadable as a .zip because I can't host the .xmp file directly, if you're still interested.
www.shaka1277.com/phoenix
@@Shaka1277 what an amazing father's day present. I will check this out and and let you know how it goes. Thankyou 😁 I actually have some xpan queued up awaiting scanning, so perfect timing.
Can you do a video on mastering vision 3 films?
Honestly, very unlikely. It's too much work for me to do this with any regularity. There is something I'd like to do with the Vision3 films but it's nothing as deep as this.
haha chemistry go brrr
Well, it sounds so interesting, but for me, I didn't understand a thing. Sorry😔
Complicated. But good work
I like your work, but you really gotta stop saying stuff all the time like "Dye science is so complex, it's hard to summarize concisely" Come on dude. You clearly just barely/don't understand it, which is fine, but don't ACT like you mastered it all and totally know what's up, but "just had trouble summarizing it quickly enough".
I'm talking broadly, in the sense that it's hard to rationalise how exchanging a hydroxy group for a sulphonamide changes the absorption spectra and molar extinction coefficient.
How dyes work as a concept, and how colour dyes work for film are relatively simple and no I don't understand it fully (likely never will). I've personally made a compound series where varying an alkyl chain from 1 to 10 carbons resulted in one fluorescent compound and nine that don't fluoresce. That kind of stuff is hard to rationalise and communicate in any meaningful way in a 15-20 minute video. Consider the actual audience for film videos on RUclips.
I'm not claiming to be a major authority on this, but you're being a bit harsh.
I will take that on board and try to be clearer about where my limits lie vs what's just beyond the scope of a video.