i believe it's important not to think of plugin emulations as "virtual copies" of the hardware units because they will never sound the same, but rather as modifications or variations of the hardware. half the sounds in this video, to my personal taste, sounded better coming from the plugin and not the hardware, some sounded better analog but overall I personally can't say that one sounds better than the other, each one does something that the other one can't and it's perfectly fine. i think it's important to approach something like this with an open mind :) Thank you for the video! Much love
Indeed, as I said, both have their strengths and uses. One of the things I didn't mention in the video is automation for example. With the plugin you can automate everything at once and do all kinds of things that are not possible on the hardware as there the midi implementation is limited to note on/ not off messages. Off course you can expand that with using a midi to cv converter and patch in some extra control points (I do this to automate the filter for example). So I will probably use both depending on the sound I want and the level of automation that is needed in the track.
One thing to remember though is that the plug-in is about 16-17 years old by now and they haven't changed the core sound engine of it. There are much better "emulations" out there like the amazing Repro-1 or Synapse Legend. This particular Korg emulations comes fro a time where Zero Delay Feedback filters, ZDF, weren't even invented yet and when they arrived they made a difference like night and day with Synths like Diva and Monark being the first examples of it in around 2011-2012. And Korg never made any significant upgrades to the Synth engine like with ZDF-type of filters. That ZDF-filter algo must be especially important for such an extreme and characterful filter where overdriven resonance is perhaps the most important aspect of it and that is also the key difference that the ZDF-filters delivered. The sound of sweeping the filter with higher resonance. It's probably still hard to emulate even with the never types of emulated filters! (overdrive for all MiniMoog plug-ins is still far off from the original too. Same even for Behringers Model D. Yes, the minimoog overdrive isn't the same as the lone distorted sound of the resonance Ms-20, but I think it is part of the same "difficult to emulate" parts of virtual analog. As can Ring Modulation be sometimes.) But, yeah, I also agree that each Synth configuration/implementation has its strong points. Some of the sounds actually do sound better (or should I say nicer alone and not in a mix. "Better" is just subjective and not put into a context of a song with other tracks and with effects) for the plug-in here.
The MS-20 is such a distinctive and fun to use synth that the beat option is to own both hardware and software and then you can get the best of both, like polyphony on the VST for example.
I use the older MS20 plug in from the Korg Collection and it sounds surprisingly "real" and "alive". it has that MS20 nastiness to it, definitely an analogue vs. digital flavour nastiness
9:53 one thing that makes comparing patches even harder is that on some knobs the value numbers don't always correspond the same exact as on the other and the VCO 2 pitch goes a full octave down and on the hardware it goes 5/6 down or up.
3:07 The ring oscillator sounds different but it's mostly because in hardware it's impossible to sync the pitch on both oscillators (like you said), but if you would turn the VCO2 pitch knob on the VST the tiniest bit to the side and it would sound the same. That's a thing to remember overall when using the VST that if you want it to sound authentic with two oscillators you have to detune the OSC2 the tiniest bit.
Have also used the Legacy plug in for years... That is until I bought an MS-20 Mini. Still want an FS though especially since it's full size and has both filters. Thanks for the VS!
The 'Analog' knob on the VST has a lot to do with the character of it's sound and i would say it's the most important knob on the it. It simulates age/wear/drift/sync of the modeled circuits, so it's not only affecting pitch drifting but the character of the sound as a whole. It effects the sound even more with complex patching because if the analog knob is set to zero it means the circuitry is working in perfect order and sync which doesn't happen in analog synths. Try any patch with both oscillators on a square wave and change the analog from zero setting to higher. At zero it sounds flat because you are asking it to sound flat with no life in the circuitry, and already at 1 it's like the synth has slight pulse width modulation on both oscillators and it sounds much closer to the physical ms-20. Effectively it's the same as if you have a choir of 32 singers and when they are singing live "analog" it sounds natural but if you record each singer separately and auto tune each singer to have perfect tune and pitch and put them together it's not going to sound natural, "analog knob at zero"
I have the MS-20 FS that I had to put together and it's great! I try to use it the way William Orbit used his MS-20 on Madonna's Ray of Light album - for more spiky sounds. I haven't tried the vst version.
Wasnt expecting it to be that close. I think I could live with the vst and the Behringer version even though I think the look of the new FS model looks great and it sounds great, I'm a bit lazy to patching so dont think I'd get the max out of it. Great video.
After all these years the HW still sounds better in general than the SW. But once you add filters, effects, etc. you can make the SW not sound so digitally crisp.
Nice video. After some severe anguish back and forth, I decided today to return my MS20 mini to the store. After using it for a video I tweaked my 8080 further and recently was able to get very close to the MS20 sound on a trance arpeggio. Not identitcal, but very close. And I had to ask myself, can I pay 700 eur for the small difference in sound? Just to have that analog feel. And I decided no. I really liked it and I will miss it. Especially the filters (whose behaviour can not be replicated as far as I know!). I will also miss those crazy weird gritty and ambient soundscapes you can do with it. So while I did like it, I can't justify it economically when it is possible to create very similar sounds in the box.
Heyo! Thanks voor al je youtube video's! Tof om duidelijk te zien/leren waar trance/edm vandaan komt! Ik kan het zeker gebruiken voor mij eigen muziek nu Kun je misschien een video maken over arrangement/opbouw van nummers op jou manier? Ben al een tijdje op zoek naar een duidelijke uitleg hierover, en jij legt de dingen duidelijk uit en blijft bij de basics wat ik goed vind! 😮:) Hoop dat je er tijd en zin voor hebt 🙂 anyway bedankt zover! Pol
Zeker een interressant onderwerp om iets mee proberen te doen. Arrangement is wel een van de meer lastig te definieren dingen. Want hoewel er wat basisregels zijn, worden die ook net zo vaak weer overtreden. Zo'n video gaat wat dat betreft toch vooral bij de grote principes blijven want zodra je echt in details gaat ben je mensen eigenlijk aan het leren je track te kopieren ipv zelf te arrangeren. Ik ga hier eens verder over nadenken en zien of ik er een format voor vind :) Bedankt voor de suggestie !
the software sounds sometimes not so sharp compared to hardware, just like u mentioned. i think some of the presets are quite close i guess, closed enough and when you are short budget and storage, then softversion is still very good. i got suggested to really try make some kickdrums with the MS20, so the software version it is then. great comparising!
I think in a full mix both the hardware and software versions will work perfectly fine. I used both in released tracks and it's hard to tell which is which if you don't know. That being said the hardware version has the advantage of having the actual instrument under your hands, being able to turn multiple knobs at the same time and really 'playing it'. This can be very inspiring. If its worth the cost and hassle of using the hardware is something that everybody has to decide for themselves off course.
Wow! Sounds good. I have had my order in with Sweetwater for the blue one as well since the day I saw it at Namm 2020 last year. Just wondering which country you’re in that you received yours already? I hope I’m not too far along the order/supply chain now.
@@entropybentwhistle same here ... preorder the green one with sweetwater (pre order for them is pay in full ) ... 8 months waiting ... they said shipping by December 3rd ... 🤷🏼♂️
@@entropybentwhistle well I guess they want to make sure you are a real customer (I don’t have a line of credit with them yet... maybe that’s why)... good to know, thanx 👍🏻
@@Estuera Just went and watched on sonic state channel and yes mine has the Pwm 1/4 in input on it.I never really use the cables to much,I need too.I mainly just use my key step with it.Now after watching nick it makes me want to.Thanks for asking. Ever use the ms20 iPad app?that's what I was going to use as guide with the cables.
I used the plugin for years, That's how I learned the synth basically. When I got the FS one I already knew my way around :D And that PWM is actually very useful to have, opens up the gate to even more fat sounds.
Yes indeed, feeding back using external signal and modulating the pitch of the ring oscillator just doesn't sound right if you compare it to the hardware.
The hardware sounds much more organic, which is just what makes it interesting. For example, I think that real hardware (especially analogue) still sounds superior to software. But you only compromise on the convenience of software ... But I know which one I personally prefer ... Afterall a good comparison!
Here the VST the Analogue knob was at zero. That means the VST was producing completely accurate tones while the real synth doesn't have a "perfect pitch mode", so the knob should always be adjusted if you want it to sound analogue. Most good digital recreations of analogue synths have an analogue/condition/Drift/Leakage knob that you can adjust. The Monark vst synth for example can even sound more analogue or to match a real Moog Model D if the drift and leakage knobs are set high. And it can be matched with modern Moog mono synths by setting less drift and less leakage.
Friend lent me his old orignal MS10. While it is a neet piece of hardware and I learned a lot about synthesis, it's next to impossible to dial in again the exact settings.
@@bandungbusdriver5256 I don't think he's talking about this device though. There has been a MS20ic which is an actual midi controller in the shape of a MS-20 mini.
Being able to save patches (and automate everything) is very convenient. Polyphony isn't really a must for a MS-20 imo but it gives some more options indeed. The sound is not really the same off course compared to the hardware. Not worse persé but different.
I big difference is that I can run my analog ms-20 through my driven 1073 preamp into an 1176 and sounds miles better and faster than dialing it through the software 🤪
The hardware is better. more harmonics/dirt/edge/and fat. I have the plug in (of almost every emulation out there Korg/arturia/native instruments) and plug ins always sound like plug ins unless the original was digital then pretty close. there's something about electricity goin through real circuits to give it unique sound . to me, all the plugins sound the same in the end . like they came from a computer. I had a ton of analog synths then sold them and go plug ins and now I'm slowly getting more hardware .super expensive, but worth it. Thanks for the comparison, I had always wanted to know how the MS 20 compared. but the plugins are still cool and you can do a lot with them with very little $$
Yes, don't forget one other advantage of the MS-20 hardware: The interaction with the instrument and the patching is on another level and makes you get a completely different way of working with the synth. I used the plugin for years but I never really fully grasped the unique vibe of the MS-20 until I spent some time with the hardware version. That being said, the plugin certainly is great value for the money.
Hi Jonas, stumbled upon your channel by total accident. Very surprised to see you here but I enjoy it a lot and more people should know about this. I wonder how much do you think would the difference in sound be in a complete mix? If we hear the sounds solo the hardware sounds better/richer without a doubt but whats your opinion about a full mix and with effects/dynamics being processed? Would you still prefer the hardware or do you think the VST could do the job mostly too? Thanks and greetings from germany ;)
It depends. I think in a full mix it will be a lot harder to spot the difference. On the other hand some patches based on modulating the ring oscillator frequence sound very different. Even in a mix that will still be clearly hearable.
It's not cheap indeed. On the other hand, it is still (a bit) cheaper than getting a vintage MS-20 and this one has MIDI. Also very well built so imo its worth it.
I'm looking at the current vintage market. The MS-20 FS is a full replica of the original instrument. It looks, feels and sounds the same so I think its inevitable to compare them. But as far as value for money goes it's probably a better idea to go for the MS-20 mini.
What is ridiculous is that the new FS has the same exact internal components and sound (minus the second filter) as the mini, yet costs almost 3 times more just for being slightly larger and a better build quality. No way is the price difference of $1400 vs $530 justified for the build quality alone. If the FS sounded way better than the mini, then I can understand, but its literally the same exact sound as the mini according to Korg themselves.
@@na-dj6ob The Mini case is poorly built compared to the full size. The Mini has smaller wobbly knobs and 3.5mm jack points that fall out really easily while the FS has sturdy 1/4" jacks. Also the mini keys don't compare to full size keys. Be thankful that the Mini is more affortable while it still has the same sound because they also could have only sold it in full size and full price. Lastly all FS versions that Korg has put out MS-20 Kit, MS-20M Kit, Arp Odyssey FS, MiniKorg 700FS have been limited editions so that collectors and original synth enthusiasts have a chance to get a 1:1 product, so they are basically collector's editions.
I really am of the opinion these days that in most cases, buying synth hardware should be for the reason of being able to tweak live and perform/play. To drop several grand just to have one slightly different tone for recording is a lavish luxury considering the small differences from VST. They aren't the same and I understand that ( I bought JP8000 just to be a Supersaw box ), but the magic of hardware is being able to play it and connect with the instrument. You don't get that with VST. That's really the difference and the reason to spend the money. I don't think, speaking of "tone" that in most cases hardware is any better than VST.
I’m not an expert by any means but from what I’m hearing, the software is better for sharper sounds wear as the hardware is better for “ BWAAAOOUUWM” type sounds
I have the MS-20 Mini but i always choose the software now after the GUI refresh because the MS-20 Mini build quality is really low compared to the fullsize MS-20. The knobs are small and wobbly, the jacks are small and fall apart easily and the minikeys don't do it any favors. I need to get a full size version too before they are sold out.
@@Estuera I'm sure it will considering how many 1979 MS-20 still work and can be serviced. And the FS has modern components and won't have any of the same problems that usually break down on the originals.
I have the MS-20 mini for 10 years now and it still working like new. BTW the MS-20 mini has no minikeys but slim keys and I have no problems with that.
@@synthetic24 True, there is a big difference between mini keys and slim keys and they are good quality slim keys at that, although they aren’t for me personally.
@@Estuera I have the Korg vst with the ms20 Controller Hardware, this reimbruse the digital try to simulate an analog circurit. And certainly the polyphonic function is nice to have. And I own a Modular System with befaco ms20 Filter, that's the reason why I do not buy Behringers ms20, because a Modular System is flexible like hell, and this filter is really Unbelievable. But yes, I am a musican and producer and componist. It's not the technic or gear, it's up to you what comes out at the end.
The FS does have some noise but nothing unexpected considering its an analog synth, its well below acceptable tresholds. I did notice a bit of extra noise when connecting the usb but that's probably a ground loop in my studio. Compared to what I heard about the mini the FS is very silent.
A ms20 without noise is not a real one. That depends on the construction of the circurit - it must make noise. But a Filter made of bits and bytes which is noiseless is boring like hell!
Analogue filters aren't supposed to alias and because of RUclips's compression, I can hear audible aliasing in the filter sweeps on the actual MS-20. Haha. I own the MS-20 Mini and think the software version falls apart on the filter emulation. In fact, I dare say that all soft synths I've compared to the original hardware don't manage to emulate the filters properly.
A quite random question for this video ;) But as far as I know I'm not playing there. At least I have not been contacted yet. Not sure when they are actually going to do this one considering the circumstances.
One thing I didn't mention in the video: The hardware has a filter that is quite noisy (which is no surprise to any MS-20 owners but it is something that will be present in your music)
they sound "about the same" I agree, but the hardware always will sound better standalone and in the mix. I am pretty sure that the software synths are just based around samples of the instruments and they also run some code that modifies the bits somewhat but I just don't think the software coders really know what they are doing. For example they know how to "emulate" hardware but it is doubtful that they actually fully would be able to understand and build the actual hardware. I don't either but I am just saying those small differences add up in the mix to making a track not sound as good as it should even if the actual track and arrangement is decent.
@@erwanthomas Indeed. And to build the software like that you'd have to understand very intimately how the hardware was built _and_ now how to translate that in DSP functions. Building a 'simple' analog synth like the MS-20 from scratch is probably something these developers know how to do, at least all the theory behind it. That's why I already answered that these devs should not be underestimated.
@@erwanthomas I don't really care how they do it, because it doesn't sound right. For example if I plug my Access Virus Ti2 digital out into my roland MX1 digital in, it won't sound as good as if I plug the analog outs of the Virus. So that is just an example of how much different digital sounds depending on the Digital to Analog converter that is used, regardless. Most vst's probably do use samples, because that is the logical way to try to duplicate an instruments sound. "they analyse the circuitry" wow that just means they try to make it sound the same based on parameter changes. Even digital synthesizers use SAMPLES of a sine wave for example, so of course a VST is going to do the same thing. Unless they are just creating a VST from scratch and then it will definitely not sound the same as a original instrument, similar but not the same. Each type of analog chip will make a slightly different sine wave for example, therefor the only way to copy that is to sample it.
@@bevolkisch4628 I'm very depressed, having studied electronic and digital audio at university I thought that I Would know à Thing or two in synthesizers but it seems that I was wrong. You left me wondering, considering that you you have an external input on the ms-20 so that you can put your own voice thru the filter, what did they sampled ?
the Hardware sounds better to me... more modulated and "open". but i still used the plugin... its cheaper and in the end result in the mix...it doesnt matter
Yep, totally fair. I used the plugin myself as well for years. It's still in new releases that are scheduled to come out the coming months and it sounds perfectly fine.
Not really no. The plugin seems to have a very high internal resolution. That scale is something you might hear when you are using an external midi controller though. It's not the plugin that is causing it.
![BabyChiefDoit - Too Slow (feat. STAR BANDZ) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zayaxws7RPg/mqdefault.jpg)
i believe it's important not to think of plugin emulations as "virtual copies" of the hardware units because they will never sound the same, but rather as modifications or variations of the hardware. half the sounds in this video, to my personal taste, sounded better coming from the plugin and not the hardware, some sounded better analog but overall I personally can't say that one sounds better than the other, each one does something that the other one can't and it's perfectly fine. i think it's important to approach something like this with an open mind :)
Thank you for the video! Much love
Indeed, as I said, both have their strengths and uses. One of the things I didn't mention in the video is automation for example. With the plugin you can automate everything at once and do all kinds of things that are not possible on the hardware as there the midi implementation is limited to note on/ not off messages. Off course you can expand that with using a midi to cv converter and patch in some extra control points (I do this to automate the filter for example).
So I will probably use both depending on the sound I want and the level of automation that is needed in the track.
One thing to remember though is that the plug-in is about 16-17 years old by now and they haven't changed the core sound engine of it. There are much better "emulations" out there like the amazing Repro-1 or Synapse Legend.
This particular Korg emulations comes fro a time where Zero Delay Feedback filters, ZDF, weren't even invented yet and when they arrived they made a difference like night and day with Synths like Diva and Monark being the first examples of it in around 2011-2012.
And Korg never made any significant upgrades to the Synth engine like with ZDF-type of filters.
That ZDF-filter algo must be especially important for such an extreme and characterful filter where overdriven resonance is perhaps the most important aspect of it and that is also the key difference that the ZDF-filters delivered. The sound of sweeping the filter with higher resonance.
It's probably still hard to emulate even with the never types of emulated filters! (overdrive for all MiniMoog plug-ins is still far off from the original too. Same even for Behringers Model D. Yes, the minimoog overdrive isn't the same as the lone distorted sound of the resonance Ms-20, but I think it is part of the same "difficult to emulate" parts of virtual analog.
As can Ring Modulation be sometimes.)
But, yeah, I also agree that each Synth configuration/implementation has its strong points.
Some of the sounds actually do sound better (or should I say nicer alone and not in a mix. "Better" is just subjective and not put into a context of a song with other tracks and with effects) for the plug-in here.
The MS-20 is such a distinctive and fun to use synth that the beat option is to own both hardware and software and then you can get the best of both, like polyphony on the VST for example.
You should do more software and hardware comparisons side by side this way. You do it the best I've ever seen.
This video is so Korgy. I love it. Im just amazed that this noise can actually be used to make music. 🤯
I use the older MS20 plug in from the Korg Collection and it sounds surprisingly "real" and "alive". it has that MS20 nastiness to it, definitely an analogue vs. digital flavour nastiness
9:53 one thing that makes comparing patches even harder is that on some knobs the value numbers don't always correspond the same exact as on the other and the VCO 2 pitch goes a full octave down and on the hardware it goes 5/6 down or up.
3:07 The ring oscillator sounds different but it's mostly because in hardware it's impossible to sync the pitch on both oscillators (like you said), but if you would turn the VCO2 pitch knob on the VST the tiniest bit to the side and it would sound the same.
That's a thing to remember overall when using the VST that if you want it to sound authentic with two oscillators you have to detune the OSC2 the tiniest bit.
That's a good point indeed.
Have also used the Legacy plug in for years... That is until I bought an MS-20 Mini. Still want an FS though especially since it's full size and has both filters. Thanks for the VS!
Both filters and also sweet colors :D haha
That blue FS looks absolutely beautiful. I just need to get one!
Well done! Waiting for your new old-school hardware works!
Thank you, I really love these comparison reviews
The 'Analog' knob on the VST has a lot to do with the character of it's sound and i would say it's the most important knob on the it. It simulates age/wear/drift/sync of the modeled circuits, so it's not only affecting pitch drifting but the character of the sound as a whole.
It effects the sound even more with complex patching because if the analog knob is set to zero it means the circuitry is working in perfect order and sync which doesn't happen in analog synths.
Try any patch with both oscillators on a square wave and change the analog from zero setting to higher. At zero it sounds flat because you are asking it to sound flat with no life in the circuitry, and already at 1 it's like the synth has slight pulse width modulation on both oscillators and it sounds much closer to the physical ms-20.
Effectively it's the same as if you have a choir of 32 singers and when they are singing live "analog" it sounds natural but if you record each singer separately and auto tune each singer to have perfect tune and pitch and put them together it's not going to sound natural, "analog knob at zero"
Yes! You can take 2 "identical" hardware synths and get any of these kinds of subtle differences.
I have the MS-20 FS that I had to put together and it's great! I try to use it the way William Orbit used his MS-20 on Madonna's Ray of Light album - for more spiky sounds. I haven't tried the vst version.
The hardware ring mod.... damn dude! Sounds awesome.
Nice comparison! Thanks!
The bass and the ring is very best for the real synth... :)
Wasnt expecting it to be that close. I think I could live with the vst and the Behringer version even though I think the look of the new FS model looks great and it sounds great, I'm a bit lazy to patching so dont think I'd get the max out of it. Great video.
After all these years the HW still sounds better in general than the SW. But once you add filters, effects, etc. you can make the SW not sound so digitally crisp.
Nice video. After some severe anguish back and forth, I decided today to return my MS20 mini to the store. After using it for a video I tweaked my 8080 further and recently was able to get very close to the MS20 sound on a trance arpeggio. Not identitcal, but very close. And I had to ask myself, can I pay 700 eur for the small difference in sound? Just to have that analog feel. And I decided no. I really liked it and I will miss it. Especially the filters (whose behaviour can not be replicated as far as I know!). I will also miss those crazy weird gritty and ambient soundscapes you can do with it. So while I did like it, I can't justify it economically when it is possible to create very similar sounds in the box.
Heyo!
Thanks voor al je youtube video's!
Tof om duidelijk te zien/leren waar trance/edm vandaan komt! Ik kan het zeker gebruiken voor mij eigen muziek nu
Kun je misschien een video maken over arrangement/opbouw van nummers op jou manier?
Ben al een tijdje op zoek naar een duidelijke uitleg hierover, en jij legt de dingen duidelijk uit en blijft bij de basics wat ik goed vind! 😮:)
Hoop dat je er tijd en zin voor hebt 🙂
anyway bedankt zover!
Pol
Zeker een interressant onderwerp om iets mee proberen te doen. Arrangement is wel een van de meer lastig te definieren dingen. Want hoewel er wat basisregels zijn, worden die ook net zo vaak weer overtreden. Zo'n video gaat wat dat betreft toch vooral bij de grote principes blijven want zodra je echt in details gaat ben je mensen eigenlijk aan het leren je track te kopieren ipv zelf te arrangeren. Ik ga hier eens verder over nadenken en zien of ik er een format voor vind :) Bedankt voor de suggestie !
the software sounds sometimes not so sharp compared to hardware, just like u mentioned.
i think some of the presets are quite close i guess, closed enough and when you are short budget and storage, then softversion is still very good.
i got suggested to really try make some kickdrums with the MS20, so the software version it is then.
great comparising!
I think in a full mix both the hardware and software versions will work perfectly fine.
I used both in released tracks and it's hard to tell which is which if you don't know.
That being said the hardware version has the advantage of having the actual instrument under your hands, being able to turn multiple knobs at the same time and really 'playing it'. This can be very inspiring.
If its worth the cost and hassle of using the hardware is something that everybody has to decide for themselves off course.
[SPEAKER WARNING] 3:55 This is when my cat looks over at me with the, "NO!!! Puhlease not this again!!!!"
Wow! Sounds good. I have had my order in with Sweetwater for the blue one as well since the day I saw it at Namm 2020 last year. Just wondering which country you’re in that you received yours already? I hope I’m not too far along the order/supply chain now.
I live in Belgium but this unit was ordered from a French store.
@@Estuera I guess the European shops had their orders in first. Just good to know the things are finally appearing in the wild.
@@entropybentwhistle same here ... preorder the green one with sweetwater (pre order for them is pay in full ) ... 8 months waiting ... they said shipping by December 3rd ... 🤷🏼♂️
@@mauriciomandara5946 Interesting they pre-charged you. I haven’t been charged until items were shipped, but I do have a line of credit with them.
@@entropybentwhistle well I guess they want to make sure you are a real customer (I don’t have a line of credit with them yet... maybe that’s why)... good to know, thanx 👍🏻
I'll vote for the software because it's included with my Kronos X. 😂 Thanks for the great video!
I got the Assemble yourself desktop and it is glorious!
Is the the version that has pwm ?
@@Estuera It has the vco 1to 2 sync and rev 1&2 filter type.Mine was bundle with a korg sq-1.
@@Estuera Just went and watched on sonic state channel and yes mine has the Pwm 1/4 in input on it.I never really use the cables to much,I need too.I mainly just use my key step with it.Now after watching nick it makes me want to.Thanks for asking.
Ever use the ms20 iPad app?that's what I was going to use as guide with the cables.
I used the plugin for years, That's how I learned the synth basically. When I got the FS one I already knew my way around :D
And that PWM is actually very useful to have, opens up the gate to even more fat sounds.
The legacy version is almost 15 years old , no dsp updates whatsoever
When doing feedback on the software version it's horrible
Yes indeed, feeding back using external signal and modulating the pitch of the ring oscillator just doesn't sound right if you compare it to the hardware.
It's matter of time till korg or another company releases proper emulation because legacy version is very dated indeed.
The hardware sounds much more organic, which is just what makes it interesting. For example, I think that real hardware (especially analogue) still sounds superior to software. But you only compromise on the convenience of software ... But I know which one I personally prefer ...
Afterall a good comparison!
Here the VST the Analogue knob was at zero. That means the VST was producing completely accurate tones while the real synth doesn't have a "perfect pitch mode", so the knob should always be adjusted if you want it to sound analogue.
Most good digital recreations of analogue synths have an analogue/condition/Drift/Leakage knob that you can adjust.
The Monark vst synth for example can even sound more analogue or to match a real Moog Model D if the drift and leakage knobs are set high. And it can be matched with modern Moog mono synths by setting less drift and less leakage.
Id be interested to see cherry audio's ps-20 compared to the hardware version. I just picked it up for $20
I think the main difference I hear is due to pitch drift in the hardware version. (Except the patch at 8:30)
Friend lent me his old orignal MS10. While it is a neet piece of hardware and I learned a lot about synthesis, it's next to impossible to dial in again the exact settings.
One you get gold you better record it indeed.
But if Korg has manufactured and assembled the do-it-yourself kit, would that still count as a replica?
Well, they replicated their original hardware. You could also call this an 'Mk3' maybe.
ander enger jensen call it usb midi controller... lol... but he is a digital fan of course...
@@bandungbusdriver5256 I don't think he's talking about this device though. There has been a MS20ic which is an actual midi controller in the shape of a MS-20 mini.
wow that's a jewel right there... ms and reface cs.... how about behringer ms1... thats the best replica of roland synth... love your work....
Actually another synth jewel is coming to the studio ;) Already waiting for 2 months for it to arrive. So keep an eye on the channel.
@@Estuera OB-XA?
@@synthjunky It's not an OB-XA ;) That would have been really nice as well off course
The software version is polyphonic and has memories
Being able to save patches (and automate everything) is very convenient. Polyphony isn't really a must for a MS-20 imo but it gives some more options indeed.
The sound is not really the same off course compared to the hardware. Not worse persé but different.
I big difference is that I can run my analog ms-20 through my driven 1073 preamp into an 1176 and sounds miles better and faster than dialing it through the software 🤪
Hello, i prefer the hardware, but i fink dhat pluning is so hold no?
The hardware is better. more harmonics/dirt/edge/and fat. I have the plug in (of almost every emulation out there Korg/arturia/native instruments) and plug ins always sound like plug ins unless the original was digital then pretty close. there's something about electricity goin through real circuits to give it unique sound . to me, all the plugins sound the same in the end . like they came from a computer. I had a ton of analog synths then sold them and go plug ins and now I'm slowly getting more hardware .super expensive, but worth it. Thanks for the comparison, I had always wanted to know how the MS 20 compared. but the plugins are still cool and you can do a lot with them with very little $$
Yes, don't forget one other advantage of the MS-20 hardware: The interaction with the instrument and the patching is on another level and makes you get a completely different way of working with the synth.
I used the plugin for years but I never really fully grasped the unique vibe of the MS-20 until I spent some time with the hardware version.
That being said, the plugin certainly is great value for the money.
Legacy is polyphon, but monophonic the analog one is much nicer!
Hi Jonas, stumbled upon your channel by total accident. Very surprised to see you here but I enjoy it a lot and more people should know about this.
I wonder how much do you think would the difference in sound be in a complete mix? If we hear the sounds solo the hardware sounds better/richer without a doubt but whats your opinion about a full mix and with effects/dynamics being processed? Would you still prefer the hardware or do you think the VST could do the job mostly too? Thanks and greetings from germany ;)
It depends. I think in a full mix it will be a lot harder to spot the difference. On the other hand some patches based on modulating the ring oscillator frequence sound very different. Even in a mix that will still be clearly hearable.
@@Estuera Totally get and hear what you are saying, thanks.
$1400! For the fs version. Im sorry thats too much i love the ms 20 but jeez
It's not cheap indeed. On the other hand, it is still (a bit) cheaper than getting a vintage MS-20 and this one has MIDI. Also very well built so imo its worth it.
@@Estuera this should not be compared to the vintage as far as value. Look at the current synth market.
I'm looking at the current vintage market. The MS-20 FS is a full replica of the original instrument. It looks, feels and sounds the same so I think its inevitable to compare them.
But as far as value for money goes it's probably a better idea to go for the MS-20 mini.
What is ridiculous is that the new FS has the same exact internal components and sound (minus the second filter) as the mini, yet costs almost 3 times more just for being slightly larger and a better build quality. No way is the price difference of $1400 vs $530 justified for the build quality alone. If the FS sounded way better than the mini, then I can understand, but its literally the same exact sound as the mini according to Korg themselves.
@@na-dj6ob The Mini case is poorly built compared to the full size. The Mini has smaller wobbly knobs and 3.5mm jack points that fall out really easily while the FS has sturdy 1/4" jacks. Also the mini keys don't compare to full size keys.
Be thankful that the Mini is more affortable while it still has the same sound because they also could have only sold it in full size and full price.
Lastly all FS versions that Korg has put out MS-20 Kit, MS-20M Kit, Arp Odyssey FS, MiniKorg 700FS have been limited editions so that collectors and original synth enthusiasts have a chance to get a 1:1 product, so they are basically collector's editions.
I really am of the opinion these days that in most cases, buying synth hardware should be for the reason of being able to tweak live and perform/play. To drop several grand just to have one slightly different tone for recording is a lavish luxury considering the small differences from VST. They aren't the same and I understand that ( I bought JP8000 just to be a Supersaw box ), but the magic of hardware is being able to play it and connect with the instrument. You don't get that with VST. That's really the difference and the reason to spend the money. I don't think, speaking of "tone" that in most cases hardware is any better than VST.
I agree. Working with hardware brings out different ideas. If its only the sound you're after vsti's are a lot more practical.
yeah but there is a really cheap MS20 controller for the vst
where do I download it I hope its cheap
I’m not an expert by any means but from what I’m hearing, the software is better for sharper sounds wear as the hardware is better for “ BWAAAOOUUWM” type sounds
I have the MS-20 Mini but i always choose the software now after the GUI refresh because the MS-20 Mini build quality is really low compared to the fullsize MS-20. The knobs are small and wobbly, the jacks are small and fall apart easily and the minikeys don't do it any favors. I need to get a full size version too before they are sold out.
It might be a bit pricey but it will still work when the software is obsolete and the mini has fallen apart ( at least I hope so :D )
@@Estuera I'm sure it will considering how many 1979 MS-20 still work and can be serviced. And the FS has modern components and won't have any of the same problems that usually break down on the originals.
Yes, I'm not too worried about that indeed.
I have the MS-20 mini for 10 years now and it still working like new. BTW the MS-20 mini has no minikeys but slim keys and I have no problems with that.
@@synthetic24 True, there is a big difference between mini keys and slim keys and they are good quality slim keys at that, although they aren’t for me personally.
I guess for a poor musican like me the Behringer ms20 Version does the same job and better than any digital Vst version.
Its not about the tools, its about what you do with them. I'm pretty sure the Behringer version is quite good as well. Never tried it out though.
@@Estuera I have the Korg vst with the ms20 Controller Hardware, this reimbruse the digital try to simulate an analog circurit. And certainly the polyphonic function is nice to have. And I own a Modular System with befaco ms20 Filter, that's the reason why I do not buy Behringers ms20, because a Modular System is flexible like hell, and this filter is really Unbelievable. But yes, I am a musican and producer and componist. It's not the technic or gear, it's up to you what comes out at the end.
I sold my ms20 mini because it had “the noise” issue. Can you verify this issue has been resolved ?
The FS does have some noise but nothing unexpected considering its an analog synth, its well below acceptable tresholds.
I did notice a bit of extra noise when connecting the usb but that's probably a ground loop in my studio.
Compared to what I heard about the mini the FS is very silent.
A ms20 without noise is not a real one. That depends on the construction of the circurit - it must make noise. But a Filter made of bits and bytes which is noiseless is boring like hell!
more tutorials of
Analogue filters aren't supposed to alias and because of RUclips's compression, I can hear audible aliasing in the filter sweeps on the actual MS-20. Haha.
I own the MS-20 Mini and think the software version falls apart on the filter emulation. In fact, I dare say that all soft synths I've compared to the original hardware don't manage to emulate the filters properly.
Yeah, youtube and high end audio aren't friends. 🤷♂️
playing @ asot 1000 ? :p
A quite random question for this video ;) But as far as I know I'm not playing there. At least I have not been contacted yet. Not sure when they are actually going to do this one considering the circumstances.
Hardware >> software (in this case, at least)
One thing I didn't mention in the video:
The hardware has a filter that is quite noisy (which is no surprise to any MS-20 owners but it is something that will be present in your music)
It’s the same for all the vsti. They will never sound organic. Never!
Not true at all, many software emulations are indistinguishable from their analog counterparts. The MS-20 however is not one of them.
they sound "about the same" I agree, but the hardware always will sound better standalone and in the mix. I am pretty sure that the software synths are just based around samples of the instruments and they also run some code that modifies the bits somewhat but I just don't think the software coders really know what they are doing. For example they know how to "emulate" hardware but it is doubtful that they actually fully would be able to understand and build the actual hardware. I don't either but I am just saying those small differences add up in the mix to making a track not sound as good as it should even if the actual track and arrangement is decent.
Do not underestimate how much DSP knowledge is needed to build software synths. These developers are very skilled.
You have absolutely no idea how it's done. They don't use samples, they analyse the Circuitry to calculate transfer functions.
@@erwanthomas Indeed. And to build the software like that you'd have to understand very intimately how the hardware was built _and_ now how to translate that in DSP functions. Building a 'simple' analog synth like the MS-20 from scratch is probably something these developers know how to do, at least all the theory behind it. That's why I already answered that these devs should not be underestimated.
@@erwanthomas I don't really care how they do it, because it doesn't sound right. For example if I plug my Access Virus Ti2 digital out into my roland MX1 digital in, it won't sound as good as if I plug the analog outs of the Virus. So that is just an example of how much different digital sounds depending on the Digital to Analog converter that is used, regardless. Most vst's probably do use samples, because that is the logical way to try to duplicate an instruments sound. "they analyse the circuitry" wow that just means they try to make it sound the same based on parameter changes. Even digital synthesizers use SAMPLES of a sine wave for example, so of course a VST is going to do the same thing. Unless they are just creating a VST from scratch and then it will definitely not sound the same as a original instrument, similar but not the same. Each type of analog chip will make a slightly different sine wave for example, therefor the only way to copy that is to sample it.
@@bevolkisch4628 I'm very depressed, having studied electronic and digital audio at university I thought that I Would know à Thing or two in synthesizers but it seems that I was wrong. You left me wondering, considering that you you have an external input on the ms-20 so that you can put your own voice thru the filter, what did they sampled ?
the Hardware sounds better to me... more modulated and "open".
but i still used the plugin... its cheaper and in the end result in the mix...it doesnt matter
Yep, totally fair. I used the plugin myself as well for years. It's still in new releases that are scheduled to come out the coming months and it sounds perfectly fine.
Do you hear the "Scale" (0-127) in the Plugin when you slowly Turn the knobs?
Not really no. The plugin seems to have a very high internal resolution. That scale is something you might hear when you are using an external midi controller though. It's not the plugin that is causing it.
@@Estuera you're right! It's only the legacy Controller 😅