This makes me think of how in modern English we poetically talk about knowing things in our "heart and mind", where the implication is that the "heart" holds our deep yet nebulous instincts and intuition, where the "mind" is for more specific semantic recall and logical thinking. It's easier to list a constellation of connotations the two words hold than to strictly define them, though. I can imagine a future civilization attempting to understand our use of the phrase "heart and mind" and similarly struggling with how literally and specifically to interpret this poetic coupling of ideas.
Your insight reminded me of a great Star Trek, TNG episode - "Darmok". The crew faces a significant communication dilemma with the aliens they encounter. The computer's universal translator cannot help, because the "language" used by the aliens doesn't work via direct meaning. The meaning is conveyed only via contextual allegory, allusion and metaphor. Without shared experience, allegory, allusion and metaphor are useless. Perhaps nailing down an exact meaning of Huginn and Muninn is both impossible and somewhat undesirable. A range of possible meanings is likely the best outcome. We modern folk cannot truly understand what those words, with all their connotations, meant to speakers 1000 years ago. As Dr. Crawford has quoted, “The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.”
This drives home for me how important it is to take into account the time period you are studying and the evolution of language. You can't necessarily apply modern meaning to words from a long time ago simply because they sound familiar to you. Language evolves like everything else. Thank you Dr. Crawford!
Along with that is the important realization that even basic concepts might not find equivalences across time. We can ask something like, "What is the Norse word for 'mind'?" and stop there without asking "What did they think of when using that term? What did the concept entail for them?"
In danish we also have the word hukommelse which translates into memory. It is intersting to note that the Danish word is a composite of Hu and komme (meaning to come). So literally the meaning is more something like "come into mind" or "come into consciousness". In old style Danish you do still get the two words separately - "I hu komme" or "at komme i hu"
Indeed. And I suppose that, since "komme" has the meaning "put (into something)" when it is used transitively as it is in the expression "komme noget i hu" ("remember something"), one could translate it very literally as "put into mind". And let us not forget the compounds: "omhu" meaning "care" "ildhu" meaning "enthusiasm" Less transparent is "elskov" meaning "love" (today mostly carnal love) from "elsk-hu", although it looks like a form with a-umlaut (= probably Jutlandic): *elsk-hov/hog. Then there is the verb "hue" meaning "please", e.g. "det huer mig" - "it pleases me". By the way, "hu" is closely related to "hygge" which is why the adjective corresponding to "omhu" is "omhyggelig". "Hygge" once meant something like "mindfulness" in Danish until the meaning was influenced by 18th-century Norwegian.
In Icelandic we have the concept of 'að detta í hug' (to fall into thought/mind) and it is as such 'Hvernig datt þér þetta í hug?' (How did you have this idea?/How did you have this thought?/How did this idea fall into your mind? In Iceandic 'hugsa' means the act of thinking, while in Nynorsk it is the act of remembering. In Icelandic 'Ég man' is 'I rembember' while 'Ég mun' is 'I will'. In Norwegian you have 'må' as in 'must': 'Du må' -> 'You must'.
@@troelspeterroland6998 that's interesting because in Icelandic you can say: 'Ég hygg' and 'Ég hyggst' and the first one means something like 'I think/It is my opinion' while the latter one is 'This is my intention\This is my alignment'.
Way off in Left field is As Gaeilge… huigeann(understanding) agus(and) muinínn(trust) I just thought it was odd, and they might be completely unconnected. But it’s possible considering the Norse and Gaeilge intermingled histories and lingual connections. Of course I could be full of shite too. And this video was great!
Being able to remember the past is important for a sense of self but it's also important to keep your desire or will to act in the here & now & create a (hopefully) better future
I think the generalized concepts of spirit and mind work well. They have a similar broadness of meaning. Being afraid of losing your spirit but more afraid of losing your mind also works.
This reminds me of how 'thinking about' and 'liking/desiring' can seem interchangeable in some Nordic languages... like, in modern Swedish, to say you like something/someone, you use 'think about' - *ticker om* - "Jag ticker om [insert noun here]", meaning "I like [noun]" or literally "I think about [noun]" 🙂
I see grimnismal stanza 20 as a reference to reincarnation. Othinn saying he doesn’t fear as much for his soul but fearing more that he won’t have his memories in the next life
Subject matter is deep. Certainly is good there's some ambiguous air to it. Thank you. Definitely have much to think about. Blessings to you and your family.
I must add here that I have interpreted this part as Odin is afraid of be forgotten meaning not be worship anymore - you put your thought to the god and you pray to it with your mind. So he sends out the ravens to look around on whom that are still worshiping him and they come back telling him of those and what they wish. When they do not return is the day people forgot him - huginn - and stop worship him and no pray comes - muninn.
Just this morning, I was discussing Odin's ravens with my children... here's what happened: a bird was loudly calling at us, and my daughter started talking back, so, my son got all huffy and called her an idiot because she was shouting at birds, and something along the lines of them having bird brains and definitely not able to communicate anyway. So, I interjected that even if they couldn't speak to us in caws, they could be gathering information, I ended, that is seemed silly to us, but many people believe that birds could be the eyes and ears gathering information... anyway, all that to say that it is not everyday one discuses the significance of ravens, and then I get to hear more about it! It just seemed a cool, notable coincidence to me.
My mother told my son that she had a "Little Birdie" that watched him to make sure he was a good boy. So when she'd ask him why his did something in particular, He's be all like, "How did you know?!" She'd tell him, "A little birdie told me." HE's 20 now and still keeps a side eye on birds LOL
Interesting to think that Odin is in two trinities of names with meanings connected to the mind - with his brothers Vili and Ve he's in Wodinaz-Wiljo-Wiha, inspiration-will-spirit. And with his ravens it's inspiration-thought-memory (or whatever mental/emotional/spiritual meanings they had at the time).
I always go with the thought and memory meaning from Grim 20. However, hearing this video, it’s very possible it meant “I am worried my courage (to fight, to travel, To carry on) will not come back, but I worry more my desire (to live, to fight, to carry on) won’t come back.
I grew up in Sweden right next to the Norwegian border. There I heard an expression that I haven't heard since I moved away. ”Jag höger” namely; ”I hugir,” which means "I remember". This must be a very old word that remained in the local dialect and has long since disappeared from modern Swedish. To remember the name of one of the ravens of Odin, I have always used this word.
Odin is so driven by Ragnarok - it is somewhat poignant to think of him as possibly being fearful of losing his 'will' to continue marshaling his forces and preparing for that apocalyptic battle. The loss of his will would be tantamount to losing himself. Thank you for providing another way to understand "Huginn' and 'Muninn"!
Between myself and my other half three of our parents and another relative have had dementia in recent years. I can well understand Odin's fear of losing his memory and other aspects of his mind, even more so considering Norse attitudes to those enfeebled by age. Indeed it's those other aspects that I think are encompassed by Huginn and I note Faroese has several words derived from hugi that describe them.
We're bombarded with these images of early Scandinavians being almost more bear-like than human, (Vikings, berserker, etc.) but here we see deep subtlety of thought. It shines a different light on them.
Very interesting! In modern Norwegian we also have an expression "å komme i hug" , which means somewhat to remember by way of "it will come to my thought". The expression isn't in much use now, but you will find it in literature and songs. So the connection between thought and memory are still very closely linked in this expression.
And I can imagine that you also have something very similar to these archaic Danish expressions: At være gram i hu "to be infuriated (in the mind)" (often used about Zeus in 19th century translations of the Odyssey). RInde nogen i hu "be remembered by someone" (literally "run in somebody's mind" Min hu står til... "I desire" (literally "my mind stands to...")
The surviving relic of the verb "muna" in Danish is the archaic modal verb "monne" which either expresses a presumption or a doubt about something. Its present tense "mon" has now turned into an adverb which basically turns a sentence into a question. And some sort of adjectival form also survives in the extremely archaic epithet of king Erik II Emune, the "ever-memorable".
I wonder if it is related to the Swedish word "månne"? It surely looks like at first glance. Månne in Swedish is used as a way to express "might it have happen" or "might it be time" in a questioning manner. It aparently comes from the old Norse word "munu" but not sure that is the same or really related...
I was also interpreting and idea of the word desire the desire for knowledge. His Odin has been known to do whatever it took to gain it's, which could lead to Madness
A really fascinating investigation into etymology and linguistics. Thank you for sharing!
2 месяца назад
The description of "hug" sounds like the current meaning of the Norwegian verb "hige". A sentence like "å hige etter noe" means "to yearn for something". AFAIK it is only ever used in phrases of the form "hige etter", i.e. it is not used as an independent verb.
Those ancient people may have divided concepts differently. For instance I may intend to iron my shirts tomorrow or I may intend to lie on the sofa reading a book. Calling these by the same name is slightly misleading in the latter case I simply act according to my preferences. In the former I have a will to do what is necessary, but if it weren't necessary I wouldn't do it. One may divide thought in the same way.
Thank you for this analysis! A lot of interesting things to think about. I always love the deep digs into how words can change meaning and intent through history.
While you were speaking of Grimnismal stanza 20 and the loss of will relating to depression, etc... I thought of a thing I read in Havamal, specifically stanza 55: "You should be only a little wise, never too wise. A wise man's heart is seldom glad if he is truly wise". Could one lose one's will if he were to become truly wise? It might be an interesting internal conflict, for even a God, if his pursuit of his desire (wisdom) might ultimately be the destruction of his spirit. Sort of a "be careful what you ask for, you might get it situation". One man's thoughts anyway. Thanks for bringing up the linguistics... that seem to point at philosophy; I'll have something to puzzle over while shoveling snow this morning!
I've always interpreted those stanzas as Odin (a personification of consciousness) expressing its fear of ceasing to be, of losing its essence (hugr) and dying being less haunting than the thought of one losing their mental faculties and memory (both being incorporated into muninn) but remaining alive as a shell of what they once were. This was very interesting. If there's one thing linguistics has taught me, it's that - much - is lost in translation and time.
@Anton Juntunen well, concidering the name "Odin" literaly means "Master of od", ie "master of madness/fury/frenzy (altered states of consciousness, probably related to seidr and galdr rituals; the spear dancer depiction is a very good example), and concidering that one of Odin's roles in the mythology is to gather knowledge at all costs, it's not that far fetched to view Odin as a personification of consciousness, among other things.
In ancient greek the same root mn/mēn may mean [perhaps the very verb "mean" in english comes from it] both "memory" as in μνημοσύνη, μνήμη, and "will", "desire" as in μένος, which however means also "vigour" "power" and "rage" "grudge" in the word μηνις, that Homer used for Achilles' wrath. It is also the root of μανία (folly, madness) and of sanskrit "mantra" among many other words. I find very interesting that the root Connects projection into the past (memory) with the future (will). If I were to sum up the many derived meanings in the different indoeuropean languages I would say the root *men denotes a human internal faculty, connoted by its being capable of content; it is the inner side of man whenever it is focused on something, whenever it contains an image or a specific will.
I’ve always believed it to be a natural way to look at life through and old man’s mind. Fearing that with advancing age, the faculties diminish. Who are we who have lost thought? Who are we who begin to lose our memories? What’s left of us old folks when our brains begin to decline? I’ve seen it up close enough times to know it can be a fate worse than a living hell. Trapped in your own mind, and the “awareness” that you are trapped, is a double-fold torture.
Interesting that "huglauss" means "cowardly" in old Norse; the direct descendant in modern Swedish, "håglös," means "despondent." "Håg" is sometimes used as an archaic or dialectal word for "will," "att komma i håg" (roughly "to come into mind") is a common way to express your memory of something, and to be "hugad" is to have your mind set on something or to be eager to do something. (Also saw some other commenters bring up more uses of the word "håg" in compounds, and depending on the specific compound/idiom it can imply ether "mind" or "will." Note also that in the specific example of "håglös," "håg" seems tom mean the same thing as "munr" does in "Munin," and in Swedish Danish and Norwegian alike either word can be used as memory, so they do indeed seem to be somewhat overlapping.)
in norwegian . . we say "mon tro" . . (with the meaning "i may believe") where "mon" is from the verb "monne" which according to "Det Norske Akademis ordbok" is derived from old norse "munu" :-)
I have always thought of them as being the same but can separate or split into two when needed, a mirrored image of one idea, The names seem to overlap like they were his thought and spirit or thought and mind projecting away from himself as shaman's are known to do usually in animal form, or in this case his raven(s). It would explain why Odin fears that Hugin and Munin might not return to him. If Odin as a shaman and highly experienced in seidr would Astro-project himself in animal form such as the raven or ravens and something were to happen to one or both of them he would lose that part of himself as they were simply an extension.
It could be that Odin, Hugin and Munin parallel the ancient Greeks (Plato's, IIRC) theory of the soul - Eros, Thymos and Logos. The image is a charioteer driving a chariot with a black and a white horse, i.e. Logos(Reason) reining in Thymos(spirit) and Eros(desire). One can make a comparison with Odin (the master, Reason) sending out in the world his thought/spirit(Hugin) and desire (Munin).
Curiously, one of the most strong words for a coward in Portuguese is "pusilânime" wich comes from Latin pusilis anima or small soul, small spirit or something like that. By the way could you do an episode about the Lombard and their story about odin granting them victory over the vandals and giving them their own name as a people? I think that would be a very interesting one.
I think its similar to ancient Greek or Pali metaphysics. English lacks the ability to properly translate certain things. We think of the mind soul spirit thought consciousness as all one thing when these older languages broke them down with more nuance I believe. It's interesting Muninn Saka Muni. Saka Muni (Buddha) means Scythian sage so it seems obvious to me theres an etymological link there to an older source. Could be wrong, thought I'd mention it
Maybe something a kin to: The fear of losing one's mind/memory, but the greater fear of losing one's memory AND/OR the ability to create new memories. For the longest while, I thought "Hugin" and "Munin" meant "thought/memory" and "difference" (usual meanings in modern faroese). While the one raven went out and told him about the world, the other would tell him how it differs from last time/how it has progressed. In any way, "thought/memory" and "difference/progress", in the word "munr", has a connection, as seen in modern icelantic/faroese. At least, I'd assume so. On another note, the word "tenke" (or other forms, in modern scandinavian), meaning "think", comes from lower german. In modern danish/norwegian "huske/hugsa" means to remember, but in faroese/icelantic it means to think. With the "new" word from lower german, I assume they (danes?) could "specialize" "huske/hugsa" then, to "remember". In modern faroese/icelantic, we use "minnast" for 'remember' (same as 'mind I'd assume). Related to "munr/muna" maybe? Edit one last time: 'Thinking' and 'remembering' probably wasn't/isn't that distinguishable?
There's a Muhammad Ali interview where he is asked if he has a bodyguard , he says my god sees all and hears all yet he has no ears and no eyes he is mind and memory. Always thought could there be a link between all religions and one creator concept.
The hugr-as-courage bit reminds of Latin and lots of Romance languages (e.g. Spanish), where anima also means soul/spirit/“that which animates/drives the body,” but you can do something “de animae” (de almas), which means courageously
In magic they have conveyed to myself 'Intention, also blade alongside thought . Which makes perfect sense really. With memory it was more conveyed as change, memory being a part of this. Lot's of other information also. Great upload thank you. All the best from Cornwall England.
In the two minutes I could be bothered watching, iv decided he named the birds, my will to remember and my will to forget. Nice names..... (goes to bake cookies)
I was talking to my brother about Thor and Odin and how we need both of them because Thor is our mother the one who protects us from evil and harm and Odin is more of the father figure that lets us go out there and get ourselves hurt although Odin can be a bit of an a-hole we need the balance of both gods I suppose and Odin kind of works in his own self-interest we can understand that because he needs warriors for Ragnarok but you can appreciate each one for what they give us
They are both total a-holes, even though Thor is slightly less dangerous than Odin. Mostly that’s because Thor is a thunder-and-war kind of god, so he is more predictable. Odin has PLANS.
Could odin and his ravens be where we get the modern idea of, Mind, body and spirt from. Huginn being spirit, muginn being mind and odin being the body? Just a thought.
Great vid. I like your Patreon supporter's idea and your discussion of it - it kind of broadens the definition. Thought and Memory - or the desire for the rewards of thought and memory? And it extends it beyond simply mental capacity into physical capacity too: not just the idea of sexual impotence, but of lack of ability to do anything you used to (I started walking with a stick in September last year. I'm hoping it's temporary, but I can't stop thinking of how much I used to love walking, that now I can't do it, and I'm feeling like a proper old fogie). Also love your description of depression. The world would be a better place if everyone understood it that well.
Very interesting video. It made me think shareable thoughts, so here it goes: It's worth considering that this was not a literate culture, and thus the ability to remember would be much more important in every aspect of life than in our modern world. What to us would be entertaining party tricks, would to them be crucial survival skills, e.g. remembering when to plant crops, what was decided at the thing nine years ago, or how to navigate distant shores based on stories the old man told you when you were young. And then there is the fabric of culture and society, all the tales of past deeds, legends, myths and genealogies, the latter being the base of all claims to the land. All in all, I suspect that the stories about Huginn and Muninn are not just some funny sidestory, but had a much richer meaning back when they were told rather than read. Along with Mimer, they may even represent the very essence of Odin.
I would like to reach out and say how much I appreciate your videos, this video is again so well balanced, it picks up on a curiosity probably many people (incl. myself) have, it goes into the material, at quite a lot of depth, but not too much, it comes out the other end with a conclusion, that is not a decision but a new way of thinking - great! Seeing these videos from Germany is something specific too, here one is quickly labelled right wing, fascist or whatever, just because one is interested in these things. that is why I have not gone into this stuff for many years. Your channel made me reconsider, and I am very thankful for this. Also I used some of the knowledge provided by you for one of my columns I put out on my homepage, it's about Odin stealing the mead of poetry, and some of the advice he gives on consumption of alchohol, in my article I link this up with the 75th birthday of David Bowie, which seems to work somehow. Many regards and carry on! Bastian flimmern
So interesting and informative, I love the details about the history of the language and how this might affect the translation. It seems Old Norse is as multiply nuanced as some English? Thank you
per my studied, see tj graybeal site. our name. graybeal was krahenbuel, swiss to german immigrate americas pre revolution. kray =crow, buel an hill or forest? so i take crow an raven for name sake...
This is likely a very simplistic and wrong view of just an ordinary viewer, but it is like Hugin (rational thinking) and Mumin ("irrational" desires of flesh) - a dualistic view of thinking.
I think what Dr. Crawford was referring to had more to do with desire as in "want/will", meaning, the will to do anything. Although as he concluded "memory" is still a great bet
Is the loss of his will comparative to being unable to change the inevatable fate which awaits at Ragnarök, he tried and failed, so his will was useless
This makes me think of how in modern English we poetically talk about knowing things in our "heart and mind", where the implication is that the "heart" holds our deep yet nebulous instincts and intuition, where the "mind" is for more specific semantic recall and logical thinking. It's easier to list a constellation of connotations the two words hold than to strictly define them, though. I can imagine a future civilization attempting to understand our use of the phrase "heart and mind" and similarly struggling with how literally and specifically to interpret this poetic coupling of ideas.
That feels like a really good parallel.
Your insight reminded me of a great Star Trek, TNG episode - "Darmok".
The crew faces a significant communication dilemma with the aliens they encounter. The computer's universal translator cannot help, because the "language" used by the aliens doesn't work via direct meaning. The meaning is conveyed only via contextual allegory, allusion and metaphor. Without shared experience, allegory, allusion and metaphor are useless.
Perhaps nailing down an exact meaning of Huginn and Muninn is both impossible and somewhat undesirable. A range of possible meanings is likely the best outcome.
We modern folk cannot truly understand what those words, with all their connotations, meant to speakers 1000 years ago.
As Dr. Crawford has quoted, “The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.”
@@MrVvulf Temba, his arms wide.
Mr. Bergquist-I never had truly thought about this, but you are so right!
I think of it as cognition and recognition. And I think most recognition is at least at first, emotional.
'Geheugen' (Dutch word) translates to memory in English
I appreciate your power of focus, Mr. Crawford. Thank you for your work.
This drives home for me how important it is to take into account the time period you are studying and the evolution of language. You can't necessarily apply modern meaning to words from a long time ago simply because they sound familiar to you. Language evolves like everything else. Thank you Dr. Crawford!
"False friends" as the French call them.
that's the case with anything historical. don't apply modern views when looking at the past.
Along with that is the important realization that even basic concepts might not find equivalences across time.
We can ask something like, "What is the Norse word for 'mind'?" and stop there without asking "What did they think of when using that term? What did the concept entail for them?"
In danish we also have the word hukommelse which translates into memory. It is intersting to note that the Danish word is a composite of Hu and komme (meaning to come). So literally the meaning is more something like "come into mind" or "come into consciousness". In old style Danish you do still get the two words separately - "I hu komme" or "at komme i hu"
Same in Norwegian
Indeed. And I suppose that, since "komme" has the meaning "put (into something)" when it is used transitively as it is in the expression "komme noget i hu" ("remember something"), one could translate it very literally as "put into mind".
And let us not forget the compounds:
"omhu" meaning "care"
"ildhu" meaning "enthusiasm"
Less transparent is "elskov" meaning "love" (today mostly carnal love) from "elsk-hu", although it looks like a form with a-umlaut (= probably Jutlandic): *elsk-hov/hog.
Then there is the verb "hue" meaning "please", e.g. "det huer mig" - "it pleases me".
By the way, "hu" is closely related to "hygge" which is why the adjective corresponding to "omhu" is "omhyggelig".
"Hygge" once meant something like "mindfulness" in Danish until the meaning was influenced by 18th-century Norwegian.
Same structure in Swedish, except reversed in usage. "Hågkommelse" is old style, but "att komma ihåg" is the modern use.
In Icelandic we have the concept of 'að detta í hug' (to fall into thought/mind) and it is as such 'Hvernig datt þér þetta í hug?' (How did you have this idea?/How did you have this thought?/How did this idea fall into your mind?
In Iceandic 'hugsa' means the act of thinking, while in Nynorsk it is the act of remembering.
In Icelandic 'Ég man' is 'I rembember' while 'Ég mun' is 'I will'. In Norwegian you have 'må' as in 'must': 'Du må' -> 'You must'.
@@troelspeterroland6998 that's interesting because in Icelandic you can say: 'Ég hygg' and 'Ég hyggst' and the first one means something like 'I think/It is my opinion' while the latter one is 'This is my intention\This is my alignment'.
Way off in Left field is As Gaeilge… huigeann(understanding) agus(and) muinínn(trust) I just thought it was odd, and they might be completely unconnected. But it’s possible considering the Norse and Gaeilge intermingled histories and lingual connections. Of course I could be full of shite too. And this video was great!
When one is depressed, duty can be the force that keeps one going when there is no desire to be fulfilled.
True; Duty outlasts desire
Being able to remember the past is important for a sense of self but it's also important to keep your desire or will to act in the here & now & create a (hopefully) better future
Swedish 'mana' (vb) "incite, exhort" does express desire and will.
How have I only discovered you NOW?? Thank you so so much for sharing all your hard earned knowledge ❤
I think the generalized concepts of spirit and mind work well. They have a similar broadness of meaning. Being afraid of losing your spirit but more afraid of losing your mind also works.
Congratulations for 200 000 subscribers :)
This reminds me of how 'thinking about' and 'liking/desiring' can seem interchangeable in some Nordic languages... like, in modern Swedish, to say you like something/someone, you use 'think about' - *ticker om* - "Jag ticker om [insert noun here]", meaning "I like [noun]" or literally "I think about [noun]" 🙂
I see grimnismal stanza 20 as a reference to reincarnation. Othinn saying he doesn’t fear as much for his soul but fearing more that he won’t have his memories in the next life
Subject matter is deep. Certainly is good there's some ambiguous air to it. Thank you. Definitely have much to think about.
Blessings to you and your family.
I must add here that I have interpreted this part as Odin is afraid of be forgotten meaning not be worship anymore - you put your thought to the god and you pray to it with your mind. So he sends out the ravens to look around on whom that are still worshiping him and they come back telling him of those and what they wish. When they do not return is the day people forgot him - huginn - and stop worship him and no pray comes - muninn.
Thank you very much. You are a good teacher. Very helpful at this moment.
I had always heard it was hindsight and forethought.
I love the fact that you make all your Videos in natural places. It gives them a special flavour 🤗
Just this morning, I was discussing Odin's ravens with my children... here's what happened: a bird was loudly calling at us, and my daughter started talking back, so, my son got all huffy and called her an idiot because she was shouting at birds, and something along the lines of them having bird brains and definitely not able to communicate anyway. So, I interjected that even if they couldn't speak to us in caws, they could be gathering information, I ended, that is seemed silly to us, but many people believe that birds could be the eyes and ears gathering information... anyway, all that to say that it is not everyday one discuses the significance of ravens, and then I get to hear more about it! It just seemed a cool, notable coincidence to me.
My mother told my son that she had a "Little Birdie" that watched him to make sure he was a good boy. So when she'd ask him why his did something in particular, He's be all like, "How did you know?!" She'd tell him, "A little birdie told me." HE's 20 now and still keeps a side eye on birds LOL
Crows are wicked smart and 100% understand the intention behind someone shouting at them. They just don't care cause they're crows.
I love your work! It is wonderful.
Awesome topic for today.
Thanks!
Interesting to think that Odin is in two trinities of names with meanings connected to the mind - with his brothers Vili and Ve he's in Wodinaz-Wiljo-Wiha, inspiration-will-spirit. And with his ravens it's inspiration-thought-memory (or whatever mental/emotional/spiritual meanings they had at the time).
I always go with the thought and memory meaning from Grim 20. However, hearing this video, it’s very possible it meant “I am worried my courage (to fight, to travel, To carry on) will not come back, but I worry more my desire (to live, to fight, to carry on) won’t come back.
When I was a child my Grandmother had a memory game I loved to play called husker do. Now I know what it meant
I grew up in Sweden right next to the Norwegian border. There I heard an expression that I haven't heard since I moved away. ”Jag höger” namely; ”I hugir,” which means "I remember". This must be a very old word that remained in the local dialect and has long since disappeared from modern Swedish. To remember the name of one of the ravens of Odin, I have always used this word.
Odin is so driven by Ragnarok - it is somewhat poignant to think of him as possibly being fearful of losing his 'will' to continue marshaling his forces and preparing for that apocalyptic battle. The loss of his will would be tantamount to losing himself. Thank you for providing another way to understand "Huginn' and 'Muninn"!
Maybe the idea that even if your failure is inevitable you should still continue fighting, die on your feet not your knees sort of thing
Thank you for the awesome, free, consistently quality content
I have raven head "busts" on my office wall, looking down on my workspace. As I age, that verse comes more and more to mind.
Your uploading a lot recently!
thnaks! :)
Between myself and my other half three of our parents and another relative have had dementia in recent years. I can well understand Odin's fear of losing his memory and other aspects of his mind, even more so considering Norse attitudes to those enfeebled by age. Indeed it's those other aspects that I think are encompassed by Huginn and I note Faroese has several words derived from hugi that describe them.
Hugad in Swedish means interested, wanting, willing
Håg is related as well.
@@demopem yes :)
Håg is used in both memory and desire.
Fascinating. This adds even more nuance.
I want to hang out with Jackson. Go to a single action cowboy gun event and discuss norse myths. Would make for a fun day.
We're bombarded with these images of early Scandinavians being almost more bear-like than human, (Vikings, berserker, etc.) but here we see deep subtlety of thought. It shines a different light on them.
Possibly like Id vs. Ego , or " reptile brain " vs. " Mammal brain " or Logical Intelligence vs. Emotional Intelligence.
Very interesting! In modern Norwegian we also have an expression "å komme i hug" , which means somewhat to remember by way of "it will come to my thought". The expression isn't in much use now, but you will find it in literature and songs. So the connection between thought and memory are still very closely linked in this expression.
And I can imagine that you also have something very similar to these archaic Danish expressions:
At være gram i hu "to be infuriated (in the mind)"
(often used about Zeus in 19th century translations of the Odyssey).
RInde nogen i hu "be remembered by someone" (literally "run in somebody's mind"
Min hu står til... "I desire" (literally "my mind stands to...")
In Swedish, "komma i håg" is the standard expression even today. Didn't know it was getting archaic in Norwegian.
That's in archaic Danish too.
@@RichardCarlsson Not sure if it is, honestly
super interesting video as usual - and a great question, too. Kudos to the patron who posed it.
Jeg er så glad for dine videoer og glædes over dine udtagelser.
I denne video er jeg dog noget irriteret over baggrundsstøjen fra vandfald.
The surviving relic of the verb "muna" in Danish is the archaic modal verb "monne" which either expresses a presumption or a doubt about something. Its present tense "mon" has now turned into an adverb which basically turns a sentence into a question.
And some sort of adjectival form also survives in the extremely archaic epithet of king Erik II Emune, the "ever-memorable".
Unsurprisingly, it's survived also in Scanian (and in Finland-Swedish). In the rest of Sweden, I guess it's considered archaic.
@@jmolofsson Ah, this explains why I have only heard it from Scanians.🙂
I wonder if it is related to the Swedish word "månne"? It surely looks like at first glance. Månne in Swedish is used as a way to express "might it have happen" or "might it be time" in a questioning manner. It aparently comes from the old Norse word "munu" but not sure that is the same or really related...
@@sirseigan Yes, this is indeed the word Johan and I were referring to. 🙂
Intrepidity and Ambition.
Good Dag 🌞
Dr. Crawford
I was curious if you have a video in your vast library of videos on the old Norse view of Reincarnation?
all the best ᛒᚨᛚᛞᚢᚱ
I was also interpreting and idea of the word desire the desire for knowledge. His Odin has been known to do whatever it took to gain it's, which could lead to Madness
This was so interesting
It´s been a while since we got video where i can clearly hear the doc! It makes me feel so nostalgic for the old days! XD
A really fascinating investigation into etymology and linguistics. Thank you for sharing!
The description of "hug" sounds like the current meaning of the Norwegian verb "hige". A sentence like "å hige etter noe" means "to yearn for something". AFAIK it is only ever used in phrases of the form "hige etter", i.e. it is not used as an independent verb.
Fascinating, as always...Will would be more important to survival than memory.
Maybe the ravens give a signal to the bear or the Wolf Where was the victim to have a meal together later !!!
Glad to see that you seem well. The Wild fires worried me for you.
Well done
Those ancient people may have divided concepts differently. For instance I may intend to iron my shirts tomorrow or I may intend to lie on the sofa reading a book. Calling these by the same name is slightly misleading in the latter case I simply act according to my preferences. In the former I have a will to do what is necessary, but if it weren't necessary I wouldn't do it.
One may divide thought in the same way.
Thank you for this analysis! A lot of interesting things to think about. I always love the deep digs into how words can change meaning and intent through history.
This is great.
While you were speaking of Grimnismal stanza 20 and the loss of will relating to depression, etc... I thought of a thing I read in Havamal, specifically stanza 55: "You should be only a little wise, never too wise. A wise man's heart is seldom glad if he is truly wise". Could one lose one's will if he were to become truly wise? It might be an interesting internal conflict, for even a God, if his pursuit of his desire (wisdom) might ultimately be the destruction of his spirit. Sort of a "be careful what you ask for, you might get it situation".
One man's thoughts anyway. Thanks for bringing up the linguistics... that seem to point at philosophy; I'll have something to puzzle over while shoveling snow this morning!
This just resonated with me in so many ways. I’ve pondered this myself and seeing someone else word it really made the thought so much more powerful.
I've always interpreted those stanzas as Odin (a personification of consciousness) expressing its fear of ceasing to be, of losing its essence (hugr) and dying being less haunting than the thought of one losing their mental faculties and memory (both being incorporated into muninn) but remaining alive as a shell of what they once were. This was very interesting. If there's one thing linguistics has taught me, it's that - much - is lost in translation and time.
@Anton Juntunen well, concidering the name "Odin" literaly means "Master of od", ie "master of madness/fury/frenzy (altered states of consciousness, probably related to seidr and galdr rituals; the spear dancer depiction is a very good example), and concidering that one of Odin's roles in the mythology is to gather knowledge at all costs, it's not that far fetched to view Odin as a personification of consciousness, among other things.
I really like your interpretation of Odin's fear that his ravens might not return
In ancient greek the same root mn/mēn may mean [perhaps the very verb "mean" in english comes from it] both "memory" as in μνημοσύνη, μνήμη, and "will", "desire" as in μένος, which however means also "vigour" "power" and "rage" "grudge" in the word μηνις, that Homer used for Achilles' wrath. It is also the root of μανία (folly, madness) and of sanskrit "mantra" among many other words. I find very interesting that the root Connects projection into the past (memory) with the future (will). If I were to sum up the many derived meanings in the different indoeuropean languages I would say the root *men denotes a human internal faculty, connoted by its being capable of content; it is the inner side of man whenever it is focused on something, whenever it contains an image or a specific will.
we know this in dutch : heugen en menen what you're looking for is to enjoy :verheugen
I’ve always believed it to be a natural way to look at life through and old man’s mind. Fearing that with advancing age, the faculties diminish. Who are we who have lost thought? Who are we who begin to lose our memories? What’s left of us old folks when our brains begin to decline? I’ve seen it up close enough times to know it can be a fate worse than a living hell. Trapped in your own mind, and the “awareness” that you are trapped, is a double-fold torture.
Interesting that "huglauss" means "cowardly" in old Norse; the direct descendant in modern Swedish, "håglös," means "despondent." "Håg" is sometimes used as an archaic or dialectal word for "will," "att komma i håg" (roughly "to come into mind") is a common way to express your memory of something, and to be "hugad" is to have your mind set on something or to be eager to do something.
(Also saw some other commenters bring up more uses of the word "håg" in compounds, and depending on the specific compound/idiom it can imply ether "mind" or "will." Note also that in the specific example of "håglös," "håg" seems tom mean the same thing as "munr" does in "Munin," and in Swedish Danish and Norwegian alike either word can be used as memory, so they do indeed seem to be somewhat overlapping.)
in norwegian . . we say "mon tro" . . (with the meaning "i may believe") where "mon" is from the verb "monne" which according to "Det Norske Akademis ordbok" is derived from old norse "munu" :-)
Desire could very well be more specific and mean ambition.
I have always thought of them as being the same but can separate or split into two when needed, a mirrored image of one idea, The names seem to overlap
like they were his thought and spirit or thought and mind projecting away from himself as shaman's are known to do usually in animal form, or in this case his raven(s).
It would explain why Odin fears that Hugin and Munin might not return to him. If Odin as a shaman and highly experienced in seidr would Astro-project himself in animal form such as the raven or ravens and something were to happen to one or both of them he would lose that part of himself as they were simply an extension.
It could be that Odin, Hugin and Munin parallel the ancient Greeks (Plato's, IIRC) theory of the soul - Eros, Thymos and Logos. The image is a charioteer driving a chariot with a black and a white horse, i.e. Logos(Reason) reining in Thymos(spirit) and Eros(desire). One can make a comparison with Odin (the master, Reason) sending out in the world his thought/spirit(Hugin) and desire (Munin).
Curiously, one of the most strong words for a coward in Portuguese is "pusilânime" wich comes from Latin pusilis anima or small soul, small spirit or something like that.
By the way could you do an episode about the Lombard and their story about odin granting them victory over the vandals and giving them their own name as a people? I think that would be a very interesting one.
Robo Cop mittens
I think its similar to ancient Greek or Pali metaphysics. English lacks the ability to properly translate certain things. We think of the mind soul spirit thought consciousness as all one thing when these older languages broke them down with more nuance I believe. It's interesting Muninn Saka Muni. Saka Muni (Buddha) means Scythian sage so it seems obvious to me theres an etymological link there to an older source. Could be wrong, thought I'd mention it
Nice sweater.
Not being very knowledgeable I think that at least stanza 50 and 95 indicates how important desire/passion was (and still is for our wellbeing).
Maybe something a kin to:
The fear of losing one's mind/memory, but the greater fear of losing one's memory AND/OR the ability to create new memories.
For the longest while, I thought "Hugin" and "Munin" meant "thought/memory" and "difference" (usual meanings in modern faroese). While the one raven went out and told him about the world, the other would tell him how it differs from last time/how it has progressed.
In any way, "thought/memory" and "difference/progress", in the word "munr", has a connection, as seen in modern icelantic/faroese. At least, I'd assume so.
On another note, the word "tenke" (or other forms, in modern scandinavian), meaning "think", comes from lower german.
In modern danish/norwegian "huske/hugsa" means to remember, but in faroese/icelantic it means to think.
With the "new" word from lower german, I assume they (danes?) could "specialize" "huske/hugsa" then, to "remember".
In modern faroese/icelantic, we use "minnast" for 'remember' (same as 'mind I'd assume). Related to "munr/muna" maybe?
Edit one last time:
'Thinking' and 'remembering' probably wasn't/isn't that distinguishable?
«Eg mune veta» - «I would like to know». Still exists in that meaning in some Norwegian dialects. More common is «minne, minnast» meaning memory.
There's a Muhammad Ali interview where he is asked if he has a bodyguard , he says my god sees all and hears all yet he has no ears and no eyes he is mind and memory. Always thought could there be a link between all religions and one creator concept.
Thank you for this! I admit these might be the two norse characters I cherish the most. Heathens with depression in the houseeee.
The hugr-as-courage bit reminds of Latin and lots of Romance languages (e.g. Spanish), where anima also means soul/spirit/“that which animates/drives the body,” but you can do something “de animae” (de almas), which means courageously
Yes I just commented about that. In Portuguese we have "pusilânime" as.a word for coward.
In magic they have conveyed to myself 'Intention, also blade alongside thought . Which makes perfect sense really. With memory it was more conveyed as change, memory being a part of this. Lot's of other information also.
Great upload thank you.
All the best from Cornwall England.
i need to re-read the edda with what you learn me, fortunatly it is in my book collection.
I was just wondering about this! Alright!👊👊
In the two minutes I could be bothered watching, iv decided he named the birds, my will to remember and my will to forget.
Nice names..... (goes to bake cookies)
I was talking to my brother about Thor and Odin and how we need both of them because Thor is our mother the one who protects us from evil and harm and Odin is more of the father figure that lets us go out there and get ourselves hurt although Odin can be a bit of an a-hole we need the balance of both gods I suppose and Odin kind of works in his own self-interest we can understand that because he needs warriors for Ragnarok but you can appreciate each one for what they give us
They are both total a-holes, even though Thor is slightly less dangerous than Odin. Mostly that’s because Thor is a thunder-and-war kind of god, so he is more predictable. Odin has PLANS.
i would support you when i can :(
So basically Odin was astral projecting, but telling people his Raven friends were talking to him...
Could odin and his ravens be where we get the modern idea of, Mind, body and spirt from. Huginn being spirit, muginn being mind and odin being the body?
Just a thought.
Great vid. I like your Patreon supporter's idea and your discussion of it - it kind of broadens the definition. Thought and Memory - or the desire for the rewards of thought and memory? And it extends it beyond simply mental capacity into physical capacity too: not just the idea of sexual impotence, but of lack of ability to do anything you used to (I started walking with a stick in September last year. I'm hoping it's temporary, but I can't stop thinking of how much I used to love walking, that now I can't do it, and I'm feeling like a proper old fogie).
Also love your description of depression. The world would be a better place if everyone understood it that well.
When hugr and munr take the form of expressing desire does that mean that the the thing desired has consumed the entirety of the mind or soul?
In modern swedish håglös means apathetic.
It feels to me like the words are referring to the higher self, higher knowing, remembering of the soul/spirit.
Ask casey
So _muna_ could be similar to the English phrase "bring to mind".
Very interesting video. It made me think shareable thoughts, so here it goes:
It's worth considering that this was not a literate culture, and thus the ability to remember would be much more important in every aspect of life than in our modern world. What to us would be entertaining party tricks, would to them be crucial survival skills, e.g. remembering when to plant crops, what was decided at the thing nine years ago, or how to navigate distant shores based on stories the old man told you when you were young. And then there is the fabric of culture and society, all the tales of past deeds, legends, myths and genealogies, the latter being the base of all claims to the land.
All in all, I suspect that the stories about Huginn and Muninn are not just some funny sidestory, but had a much richer meaning back when they were told rather than read. Along with Mimer, they may even represent the very essence of Odin.
I would like to reach out and say how much I appreciate your videos, this video is again so well balanced, it picks up on a curiosity probably many people (incl. myself) have, it goes into the material, at quite a lot of depth, but not too much, it comes out the other end with a conclusion, that is not a decision but a new way of thinking - great!
Seeing these videos from Germany is something specific too, here one is quickly labelled right wing, fascist or whatever, just because one is interested in these things. that is why I have not gone into this stuff for many years. Your channel made me reconsider, and I am very thankful for this. Also I used some of the knowledge provided by you for one of my columns I put out on my homepage, it's about Odin stealing the mead of poetry, and some of the advice he gives on consumption of alchohol, in my article I link this up with the 75th birthday of David Bowie, which seems to work somehow.
Many regards and carry on!
Bastian flimmern
I am confused as to the functions of the ravens. One collects information (data?). The other does what? Processes it?
Could it be intended double meaning?
So interesting and informative, I love the details about the history of the language and how this might affect the translation. It seems Old Norse is as multiply nuanced as some English? Thank you
per my studied, see tj graybeal site. our name. graybeal was krahenbuel, swiss to german immigrate americas pre revolution. kray =crow, buel an hill or forest? so i take crow an raven for name sake...
So a good translation of the idea might be heart and soul?
This is likely a very simplistic and wrong view of just an ordinary viewer, but it is like Hugin (rational thinking) and Mumin ("irrational" desires of flesh) - a dualistic view of thinking.
I think what Dr. Crawford was referring to had more to do with desire as in "want/will", meaning, the will to do anything. Although as he concluded "memory" is still a great bet
Is the loss of his will comparative to being unable to change the inevatable fate which awaits at Ragnarök, he tried and failed, so his will was useless
anything in norse mythology about eternal reoccurance?