As a musician, you cannot ignore Wagner...the whole of the 20th century music rests on his accomplishments. His harmonic daring was amazing for it's time. But we also remember Wagner, was a small, petty man....with huge amounts of malignant narcissism, and hideous social skills. Imagine Wagner simply doing his work as a composer, and conductor... we would look upon him with a very different attitude. His anti-Semitism was gross and repugnant, and in today's society (thankfully) not acceptable. Fry understands these issues, and comes to grips with them in the only way possible...love the man's music, but despise his view of humanity.
@Benny Hill Hmmm, just did a little reading: "Wagner did more than hate Jews, however: He proposed to cast them out of European culture in his infamous 1850 pamphlet “Jewishness in Music,” which denounced the sublime Felix Mendelssohn and the great poet Heinrich Heine as uncreative imitators. His hatred of Jews seems to have had less to do with 19th-century racial theories than with the anxiety of influence. Wagner ripped off the scenario for his opera “The Flying Dutchman” from Heine and knocked off Mendelssohn’s “Fingal’s Cave” overture in the “Dutchman’s” evocation of the sea. Wagner tried to cover his guilty tracks by denouncing Jewish composers he emulated, including Giacomo Meyerbeer." from: www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/music/75247/muted
@ Speaking for a dead man? How pathetic is it? Wagner didn't like Mendelssohn, because the latter wronged him in his most needed time. Mendelssohn was a prodigy and became famous long before Wagner. For some reason he deliberately ignore Wagner and lost the manuscript Wagner sent him, delayed Wagner's success by decades. That's the reason why Wagner later had a vendetta against Mendelssohn. The problem with Zionist is to associate any personal quarrel with antisemitism. That's a very nasty kind of racist exceptionalism.
But not all, see Radio 4's debate on the subject. Many people can divorce a person's politics from their artistic fantasies which are based on pure love and myths, particularly the Ring Cycle where love triumphs over pride. I think perhaps the message of Wagner is that he was influenced by imperialist power and Jew-envy. The message of 1918-1939 Germany is that many failed to learn from the First World War that Imperialism and Racial Nationalism are in themselves evil.Success is for all peoples
Fascism didn’t exist until 30 years after Wagner died, Wagner was a lot of things including an antisemite asshole but to say Wagner’s music embodies fascism is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard when he wasn’t even alive when it was created. Do some fucking research there’s enough shit that Wagner actually embodies that you don’t need to make up. (Don’t hate the music because the man was an asshole, John Lennon was a wife beater yet we still love the Beatles, art is seperate from its creator)
As a musician, you cannot ignore Wagner...the whole of the 20th century music rests on his accomplishments. His harmonic daring was amazing for it's time. But we also remember Wagner, was a small, petty man....with huge amounts of malignant narcissism, and hideous social skills. Imagine Wagner simply doing his work as a composer, and conductor... we would look upon him with a very different attitude. His anti-Semitism was gross and repugnant, and in today's society (thankfully) not acceptable. Fry understands these issues, and comes to grips with them in the only way possible...love the man's music, but despise his view of humanity.
Indeed and look at how many. arrangements of his music I’ve written
Well put.
agreed
this is certainly different from other sources I've read
Stephen Fry is being ridiculous in this clip.
Wait, Wagner was an anti-fascist? News to me..
Nazi appropriated his music
@Benny Hill Hmmm, just did a little reading:
"Wagner did more than hate Jews, however: He proposed to cast them out of European culture in his infamous 1850 pamphlet “Jewishness in Music,” which denounced the sublime Felix Mendelssohn and the great poet Heinrich Heine as uncreative imitators. His hatred of Jews seems to have had less to do with 19th-century racial theories than with the anxiety of influence. Wagner ripped off the scenario for his opera “The Flying Dutchman” from Heine and knocked off Mendelssohn’s “Fingal’s Cave” overture in the “Dutchman’s” evocation of the sea. Wagner tried to cover his guilty tracks by denouncing Jewish composers he emulated, including Giacomo Meyerbeer."
from: www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/music/75247/muted
JEW MATH
@ Speaking for a dead man? How pathetic is it? Wagner didn't like Mendelssohn, because the latter wronged him in his most needed time. Mendelssohn was a prodigy and became famous long before Wagner. For some reason he deliberately ignore Wagner and lost the manuscript Wagner sent him, delayed Wagner's success by decades. That's the reason why Wagner later had a vendetta against Mendelssohn.
The problem with Zionist is to associate any personal quarrel with antisemitism. That's a very nasty kind of racist exceptionalism.
@@edwardyang8254 Wagner wasn't a fascist. He was however a terrible antisemite.
But not all, see Radio 4's debate on the subject. Many people can divorce a person's politics from their artistic fantasies which are based on pure love and myths, particularly the Ring Cycle where love triumphs over pride. I think perhaps the message of Wagner is that he was influenced by imperialist power and Jew-envy. The message of 1918-1939 Germany is that many failed to learn from the First World War that Imperialism and Racial Nationalism are in themselves evil.Success is for all peoples
Wagners music is fascism embodied, beautiful.
Fascism didn’t exist until 30 years after Wagner died, Wagner was a lot of things including an antisemite asshole but to say Wagner’s music embodies fascism is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard when he wasn’t even alive when it was created.
Do some fucking research there’s enough shit that Wagner actually embodies that you don’t need to make up. (Don’t hate the music because the man was an asshole, John Lennon was a wife beater yet we still love the Beatles, art is seperate from its creator)