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@@markmountain7981 John was the prophet who bridged the gap between the OT prophets and Jesus the Messiah , whom the OT prophets pointed to, and the realization of the kingdom of God they foresaw. As such it is completely in line with Mark's presentation (actually Peter's whom Mark quoted here) to begin with John and his message. It is Mark's way of introducing the one who is the main character in the drama. The quote from Malachi and Isaiah give OT support for John's role in introducing the Messiah.
@Mark B I would suggest you don't, hes clueless, he has mentioned twice the verse when jesus says why do you call me good , every reputable Christian knows what this means and I'll explain ... “Why do you call me good? To ask this question, Jesus assumes the perspective of the rich young man. No one is completely good except God alone, therefore it is not proper for the young man to address Jesus as “Good Teacher” until he is ready to acknowledge that Jesus is God.” Much more better apologists are around, sam shamoun, who's known for debating Muslims, has amazing knowledge very well read .. Jay dyer Is another one .. And the gospels are different perspectives of the same jesus events .
I grew up in the English CofE Education system. Everyone who could not afford Public School had no choice. This meant indoctrination in the Christian Faith. Prayer and Hymns at Morning Assembly. RE Classes. Choir Practice. Church and weekly teachings from a member of the Church. The latter made me realise how ludicrous this Religion makes people behave. Even at the age of 6 I was not convinced that the Bible was at all reliable. Fair Play to those who believe. I hope it makes you a decent human being. For me it is a jumbled mess of silly anecdotes with no verifiable evidence to support the claims contained therein. Faith is all there is.
@@toefungus85241 Very kind of you. Thanks. Corporal Punishment was commonplace. It was just the way of life back then. It doesn't seem as bad as the Catholic Love version of education. FYI in the UK, Public School is what Americans call Private Schools. And the CofE State Schools are what Americans call Public School. The Cane was used regularly, as were wooden rulers. The Birch was banned while I was at school. Face Slaps were an everyday occurrence. For example: If one asked "Why didn't god..." That was an instant reason to get the Cane 10 times across your bare bottom, in front of your classmates. Ah School, The Best Days of Your Life. I don't hate god, I hate the deeds done in her name.
Have you read Nick Tosches' novel Under Tiberius? A Roman Imperial functionary, Tiberius's speechwriter/PR guy, essentially, pisses the emperor off and is exiled to Judea where he hooks up with a scruffy charismatic con man from Nazareth and together they hatch a plan to fleece the rubes by having the con man pose as The Messiah. Ok novel but a genius premise!
Emma, I hope that when I'm wrong in life, that you are the one who alerts me. I find you so easy to listen to. You have a natural grace, even when you're on the war path Keep up the great work..
Mark is almost a film writer. I get the impression that this story was delivered orally - as a traveling show. Many of the reveals are at the end (oh, by the way, he was very rich). The name of the story is "The Beginning," and that is what it is. The end leaves the live audience stunned, asking the question, "So how did we, all these years later, get this Good News?" In essence, Mark's story is telling us that the "Resurrection" happens in the heart and mind of the follower of Jesus.
Got some road rash, bruised my hip, messed up my jacket but overall I'm alright. Bike looks worse than I do. Poor things handle bars are bent all to hell, lost my battery cover, sale bags on the right side are jacked up, tanks scarfed up and dented, speakers are broken and the mirror is scratched up
first :0 also I’m exited to hear this bc I’ve read and believed the Bible my whole life (bc it’s just what I grew up with) and through your content I’ve realized it’s ok to be critical of the Bible and I hope this becomes a series
It's so freeing and refreshing to finally be free of the blinders that made it impossible to look at my own religion. Had to step away first, but now that I can come back as an atheist, there is some seriously fascinating stuff going on! Can't wait to be the Bible scholar atheist amongst my Christian family! That'll be fun!
I believe the Bible contains some history specific to the ancient Hebrews and the peoples with whom they interacted. However, the Old Testament was included to create the bonafides for the messiah figure that the Bible presents in the New Testament. The Old Testament is not a complete nor accurate rendering of the history according to the Hebrews. In my opinion, it should be ignored as part of a spiritual guide, and if one chooses to still be a Christian at all, one should only be guided by the words attributed to Jesus, and do so taking into full account the context. To whom was speaking, what the dominate culture, and how was what he said targeted to the culture? For example, in the US we have a lot of people who take the quote about Jesus not coming in peace to mean they get to be violent to non believers. But in context, that quote was Jesus explaining to his tribal group that he understood that he was disrupting their political, economic, and religious systems; that he knew he was causing breaks in family, and breaks in the structure of society. He wasn’t instructing for violence, but noting that he was disruptive by intention and for a reason. He explained that reason. The Hebrews lived to the “law”, the covenant with Jehovah, and included in their mythos was the idea of a messiah to end the contract. He said he came to complete the law…to end the covenant in accordance with their own belief system. By understanding his mission and the parameters, one can see that no one who is not under the law needs to be released from the contract, which happened by his completing the law. I find Jesus to be more interesting since giving up Christianity. He saw himself as a path to follow, a light to guide. And he was correct that one had to have a mind tuned to his frequency to get what he was saying. He was more metaphysical than Christians ever notice, in my experience with Christians.
Mark is a fascinating look at a Jesus who is mostly known from what he does. As Dr. Tabor said, Mark has sayings, but no long sermons. In John you get the reverse, Jesus perform a number of sacred actions and the rest is commentary. One thing I learned in my course on Mark is the Messianic Secret, that is Jesus constantly telling people not to say anything about what he's said or done. The people run off and tell everyone anyway, but for whatever reason, the Jesus of Mark wanted to remain mostly unknown at least until the entry into Jerusalem. I expect time limitations are why it didn't get addressed, and that is it a bit of a rabbit hole of its own.
That quote of Jesus/mark saying: why do you call me good? There is nothing good but god. Is like woahhhhhhhhhh! in the context of Christianity, but I know god is neither perfect nor good. learning is so fun!!!
Yet another great discussion taking place on Emma’s channel. Thank you Emma for holding your light up to the darkness of ignorance. I don’t think people appreciate the courage it takes to do what you do, but it’s important work. You do it well and you do it with grace.
It does not take courage to take a position from a lack of knowledge and understanding arising from an ill-informed study practice. Tabor is not an acceptable source for Bible study. And it is not because of his lack of reasoning skill, it is because he exhibits NO valid arguments against what is written. He does present his own estimation of his thoughts about what is written and the style it is written in. He stands on a two legged stool.
Possible Ultimate Subtext of Mark (minus after-market supplements): "Nearly 40 years later (when the gospel was written), we're still waiting!" As for Paul: "I never actually met the guy when he was alive, but I had a vision (I _think_ was him) that changed my life. Sadly, my buddies who were with me never wrote a word about it." What's extra fascinating in that context is the realization that the Epistles of Paul (the oldest New Testament manuscripts) were all written _before_ Mark. Great video. Great interview. Great information. Imagine what would happen if more Christians knew what Biblical (and Rabbinical) scholars/historians know.
What I found notable is that Paul never mentions any biographical details about Jesus. His doctrine is *all* about the Resurrection. You'd think, maybe, he'd slip in a reference to "that time Jesus raised the dead", or "that miracle with the loaves and fishes", etc. just to bolster his claims about the divinity of Jesus. But no, nothing. Almost like all of those stories were added later....
@@simongiles9749 Interesting observation. Paul was a salesman and every salesman has a story. In addition, Paul was not a contemporary of Jesus and was not claiming to be.
Having gone to a Catholic high school in the North of England, it's quite shocking that Mark is considered the "forgotten Gospel" with this being part of the curriculum as decided by the school. We learnt about it with the context that it was the closest to the truth of the faith as well as its historical context.
@@josepheridu3322 not by actual Christian historians, you mean. Not by a lot of Christian historians you mean. You cannot mean not by all historians because that is simply not true.
@@josepheridu3322 It doesn't matter if every single historian in the world rejects the Jesus myth theory (which is not the case). Appeals to authority or to popular opinion are fallacies, i.e., do not translate into "proof" that a statement or position is correct. The Jesus myth theory is not diminished by it. It stands on its own two feet and convinces on its own merit.
@@xofpi "It doesn't matter if every single historian in the world rejects the Jesus myth theory [....] The Jesus myth theory is not diminished by it." You can claim the same for any other conspiracy theory, though.
Fascinating discussion. I have a Masters in Theology from an evangelical institution (Dallas Theological Seminary) yet diving into this type of biblical criticism is new for me. I am really enjoying the channel.
I've been surrounded by DTS students, grads, and professors for most of my life. (Chaplain Bill Bryan married my wife and me ~25 years ago, just to start.) I, too, wish this kind of Biblical criticism had been a part of my upbringing.
Wait, I'm confused. This video has nothing to do with evangelism. You should doubt faith as a general concept. It's a concept which is as reliable as flipping a coin. But this is a video about Mark as an academic subject. The title alone should be clue enough of that. No christian would tolerate the idea that Jesus was created in a book.
It gets worse and worse for anybody that believes the Jesus story and other Bible stories...just fact after fact that puts the myth to bed...nowadays we have access to information not available years past ..for instance I thought as a kid the gospels were first hand accounts but I now know it's ridiculous
As an 80 yo who was educated at a King Edward VI Grammar School in England, I have difficulty recognizing almost anything in your comment. The school,was founded in about 1470 and granted Royal Charter by King Edward VI in 1552. It was a VERY traditional all boys school with a superb faculty from Oxford, Cambridge and many other first class universities. The Headmaster was an Oxford Don, a Latin scholar and writer of Latin text books. The curriculum was split between Science and Maths, modern and ancient languages and history, geography literature and general subjects. A wonderful mix of subject. I NEVER EVER felt as if we were being INDOCTRINATED, we had a healthy SKEPTICISM towards everything especially religion. When it came to our SCRIPTURE classes, we were NEVER forced to comply in fact we expressed our disbelief vocally, some masters were not as tolerant as others but reasoned free expression was the general rule, I was very vocal. I am and always have been a PROUD ATHEIST and I recognize some of the things you talk about. Morning assembly, I always loved the hymns, communal singing was always a joy, the rest of assembly was a prayer and notices from the Head Master. INDOCTRINATION, Are you serious, Scripture was reading of the Bible some Bible stories BUT THERE WAS NO INDOCTRINATION. In fact I was welcomed by my fellow students because I was SO OUTSPOKEN IN CRITICISM OF THE CHRISTIANS MESSAGE. We actually discussed things, we were NOT BEATEN OR ABUSED, DISSENSION WAS NOT SUPPRESSED AT ALL. We were caned by the Headmaster for bad behavior, I had my share of canines but none of it ever reached the level of abuse. The general,attitude toward religion was one of moderate RIDICULE, I would say that 90% of my fellow students regarded god as a bit of a lunatic to be tolerated not loved. MY EDUCATION AT KEGS was MARVELOUS and experience that every school kid SHOULD HAVE. Disciple was strict, you were reminded why you were there, TO LEARN AND PROGRESS AND BE A PART OF AN EDUCATED COMMUNITY. I still have a warm spot for the C of E if you MUST have a religion then C of E is by far the best.
Fantastic! Enjoyed it very much. I’m familiar with Dr. Tabor and I’m glad you interviewed him. Faith needs to be inclusive and informed. Missed the coffee cup! Lol
Blessed are those who believe without seeing and more blessed are those who do not screutinize when reading the Good News. Specially, knowing that the Gosples were written at least 60 years after the event. I think I had cheese sandwich yesterday but don't remember exactly.
This was so interesting. I am no longer Christian, but I do love learning about the stories in the Bible from a historical perspective. It makes me want to go read the Book of Mark.
This was great, felt like you both were just starting to scratch the surface on the subject. I suppose that the full course is where the real meat is discussed :) thank you
Wow this was wonderful, thank you Emma (and Dr Tabor). I really think you are one of the most interest skeptics and you bring a lot of great info---and some good laughs as well. Btw, I'm a 74 year old fan of your's. I learn a lot sometimes---like this.
@@Aurealeus Always said-- our generation has 4 groups (roughly). One quarter are bat shit crazy--they'll believe anything that Trump and Faux News tells them (and the Brexit band). Another are likely to believe them but possibly think a tiny bit more for themselves. Another quarter who are normally okay--maybe have a subject or two. And the last quarter, we still remember the 60s, and we fought and still fight for the same things "kids" (sorry but when your 70...).are today. Sadly though, I don't think we are vocal enough.
@@515aleon I'd give anything to go back. I can't believe how many from our generation have switched sides and abandoned their morals to sell their *soles and the democratic ideals of our nation down the drain for a buck.
@@Aurealeus How true is that. I'm sure will happen to other generations too. Did you ever hear "if you are a conservative when you are young, you have no heart, and if you are liberal when you are old, you have no brains?" I HATE that. SInce when is caring for humanity, brainless. And if it is--okay. I'm down with that. :D
@@515aleon Yes, and another version... most people start out as liberal and end up voting conservative as they get older. Which of course isn't true according to expert studies that found political leanings pretty much stay stable except on occasion when they do shift, as we found out w/ Trump. On the other hand, studies have also found that conservatives rarely will switch and vote liberal, whereas liberals are more likely to switch to conservative issues as they age. Seems to me, an insecurity issue with aging. So much for becoming wise as one ages, huh?
Great video, Emma. I came across it as a link from another of Dr. Tabor's interviews and have looked at some of your other videos on here. Really interesting viewing. I'm not a scholar but I consider myself an 'enthusiastic amateur' from both a historical and faith perspective. Some will disagree with me but I find that the work of Tabor, Crossan, Goodacre et al give my own spirituality a greater meaning and understanding. So thankyou and keep up the excellent work. 🙂
i recently got to borrow a book of 'the hidden books of the bible' i haven't started it yet, but im excited, because i love the in depth bible studies that aren't from a christian viewpoint.
There is an excellent lecture by Dr. Nehemiah Gordon who, due to suspicion from the Greek and Aramaic texts, thought that the Gospel of Mathew must have been originally written in Hebrew. He also knew of a letter by Rabbi Shem Tov discussing with another rabbi, that Mathew had written his gospel himself and that there was a copy of it in a Synagogue in Caesarea. Anyway, to make a long story short, Nehemiah located a Hebrew manuscript of Matthew. It’s an interesting lecture series, but I guess my point is that several of the apostles (if not all) wrote their own account (gospel) themselves, and because it’s their native tongue, most of the oldest ones were written in Hebrew rather than the Greek and Aramaic texts we have today. He proves it in many ways and it’s worth a watch - Nehemiah Gordon, Hebrew Matthew.
I read the KJV, and read the 4 gospels over and over again and the difference would always strike me. This is a wonderful talk that helps bring some understanding that I've lacked for years!!!
I disagree with Tabor on a couple of things but that's primarily on matters of interpretation and the existence of Q. It's always a good idea to give him a listen. If you find yourself thinking he's wrong about what's in the actual text, you're wrong.
Good watching. I've always been interested in the historicity of biblical events and biblical authors and even though your channel has always made me smile I do find this little tangent interesting. I've seen you do a few of these and I hope that you will do more.
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic. He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on. The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north. In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin" The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind" The sun is "The light of the World" The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea. "He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays. Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo. The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass. The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12. The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30. The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes. The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected. The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe. In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens. Christianity is ancient astrology, it's just fables about the sun. Check out Acharya S aka D.M Murdock for more info.
There were many mystery cults around at the time. Christianity was just lucky to get picked as an emperor’s favourite. The teachings not making much sense to the layman was the point. Only the initiated got the insider info into their meaning. Think of it as an early freemasonry.
@@Gamefan86 Interesting as it is to see all of those comparisons being made, it's nothing more than post hoc explanation if you don't have the evidence to back it up (that is, earlier texts about sun worshipping that already included all or most of those ideas). Anyone can make such an analysis by cherrypicking data and using metaphors to explain away said data. I'd like to hear an explanation of how the Sun multiplies bread and heals the lepers, or why would the sun go around preaching about God and referencing the Old Testament.
@@kellydalstok8900 I wouldn't say freemasonry. Christianity manoeuvred itself into a position where it had established itself among the common folk. It offered people paradise for all where other faith systems did not. There was luck but I suppose you could say that Christianity (The Roman Catholic Church) was just the Roman Empire rebranding itself and extending its power and influence at the same time. A political masterstroke?
Different versions of the same solar myth. It would make sense that Mark is essentially a drama as Dr Tabor says. It's a Greco Roman mythical story, closely linked to Greek Tragedy.
I am very impressed with this production. Dr Tabor is wise beyond words and that he gave you some insight say's very much about whomever produced this intelligent video. Cudos, Michael Jeremy Leavitt
When I was a believer many years ago I found there was a tendency to read Mark as a precisè of the longer gospels and as I read a story in Mark that occurred in a longer version in say Luke or Matthew I'd be filling in the details from those gospels and using them to make Mark "fit in" with my evangelical narrative, for example the story of the rich young ruler calling Jesus the good teacher. That kind of reading of Mark tends to dilute it's originality and difference from Matthew and Luke. It is interesting that Matthew, Mark and Luke together are called the "synoptic gospels" - that is they see the Jesus story from a similar point of view - which is a rather ahistorical approach that robs them of their individuality.
Fascinating stuff; Jesus saying 'none is good but God' and 'why have you forsaken me?' both seem to suggest that he didn't believe that he himself was God.
The "why have you forsaken me" bit was him referencing Psalm 22. The numbers (chapter and verse) we use when referencing the bible didn't exist back then. So when they wanted to mention a psalm, they didn't say the number, but the first line. Psalm 22 was a known messianic prophesy that specifically dealt with the messiah's death (what the onlookers were saying to mock him, the soldiers dividing his garments and casting lots for them, the fact that his bones were out of joint and his hands and feet were pierced, etc). He was drawing their attention to this psalm to make sure they made the connection. It's also worth noting (regarding the "why do you call me good" bit) that answering a question with a question is not only a very Jewish thing to do, but specifically a very Jesus thing to do. If you read through all the gospels and pay attention, you'll see him doing this over and over. We can see several examples of this in Mark alone (2:5-9, 4:38-40, 10:2-3, 12:14-17). When you realize this, and see how he uses questions elsewhere, it reads very differently. It's not a disclaimer ("Don't call me good") but a question meant to make the man think about the implications of what he had said- "You call me good, and we know only God is good... so what does that mean?"
I've always viewed Mark as the original true Gospel. This is to me the truth of Jesus. Matthew and Luke didn't like certain aspects of Mark so they rewrote it. But to me Mark is the truth.
It has the resurrection, the women are told he raised from the dead just as they had been told. What it doesn't have is the ascension into heaven and the story ends before they go see Jesus is Galilee. It is interesting that it says they told no one, but if it's a true account, they clearly did eventually.
Yes I think we should keep in mind that that gospel was not written in a vacuum, it's written to already well-established communities so they've already obviously believed in the resurrection and I think we can reasonably argue the Ascension. Although Mark does seem to be writing the gospel in a way to get the reader to think for themselves and to make a decision themselves on what they want to believe, I think it's foolish to think that Mark and his already christian community audiences don't already believe these things but when they present this gospel to perhaps struggling members or two Outsiders then it becomes a make a choice gospel. PS Yes Jesus says earlier in the gospel that he will die and then be risen, and so the young man in white just confirms it and repeats yes its just like he said -- Mark 14:28
@@youngknowledgeseeker I mean, you can argue it, but you're arguing something which is completely unevidenced until later writings. It's not in Paul or Mark. So you're purely in the realm of speculation to do so.
@@rainbowkrampus Ascension is not in Paul? What? Paul is earlier than Mark and definitely believes in an Ascension. So it can be argued this idea was in early christian communities. Doesn't mean all of them but at least some if not all. If Mark is the source behind the Markan comment (thus cleansing all food) then this may indicate a Pauline theology and belief or one compatible.
@@youngknowledgeseeker But Paul's Jesus was purely hallucinatory. So how can you trust the guy? He seems to have had some contact with James and Peter but he apparently considered them irrelevant. Paul comes across as a power mad nut case fanatic. And if he had to insist that he does not lie, he was most likely a liar.
it's not an "eye-witness" account. The people who wrote it never met Jesus of Nazareth in person. He was dead. The canonical gospels are "faith portraits" written by believers years after the man died and were retelling stories in perfect Greek that they had heard others tell.
the paralyzed guy is Rabbi Hillel, a very famous rabbi and leader in the early first century. It is said that as a child Rabbi Hillel desperatly wanted to study the torah and go to school to become a rabbi. But his family was very poor and could not afford school. So everyday he climbs up on top of the roof and looks down and listens to the Rabbis teach the students. On an especially cold day in winter they notice him on the roof looking down into the synagog. Hes so cold hes litterally paralyzed and barely alive. Later it sais he attended school there. I think they let him in for free for his increadible dedication to learning.
She is, like, a really good interviewer. Proclamations in Mark about ''and they were amazed," were an awful intrusion of the narrator coming out of the text, the narrator forcing his view on the reader. "and their eyes opened and they said ooh"--something like that is more concrete. At any rate, the former undermines the attempt at the sublime.
Did you get that each character's response to Jesus's ministry in the book serves as an example of soil being able to grow the Sower's seed? Some will grow quickly but wilt just as some people will be excited but lose enthusiasm.
@@paigerasmussen5212 So some seeds are predestined to grow while others are genetically inferior and deserve to die. The mustard seeds shall inherit the Earth
"Then we must deprive him of the seeming.** For if he is going to be thought just he will have honours and gifts because of that esteem. We cannot be sure in that case whether he is just for justice' sake or for the sake of the gifts and the honours. So we must strip him bare of everything but justice and make his state the opposite of his imagined counterpart.* Though doing no wrong he must have the repute of the greatest injustice, so that he may be put to the test as regards justice through not softening because of ill repute and the consequences thereof. But let him hold on his course unchangeable even unto death, seeming all his life to be unjust though being just, that so, both men attaining to the limit, the one of injustice, the other of justice, we may pass judgement which of the two is the happier.".... For the height of injustice * is to seem just without being so. To the perfectly unjust man, then, we must assign perfect injustice and withhold nothing of it, but we must allow him, while committing the greatest Wrongs, to have secured for himself the greatest reputation for justice; and if he does happen to trip,*' we must concede to him the power to correct his mistakes by his ability to speak persuasively if any of his misdeeds come to light, and when force is needed, to employ force by reason of his manly spirit and vigour and his provision of friends and money ; and when we have set up an unjust man of this character, our theory must set the just man at his side-a simple and noble man, who, in the phrase of Aeschylus, does not wish to seem but be good.... We must tell it, then ; and even if my language is somewhat rude and brutal,'' you must not suppose, Socrates, that it is I who speak thus, but those who commend injustice above justice. What they will say is this : that such being his disposition the just man -will have to endure the lash, the rack, chains, the branding-iron in his eyes, and finally, after every extremity of suffering, he will be crucified,*' and so will learn his lesson that not to be but to seem just is what we ought to desire." [The Republic, Plato, Book 2]
Jesus brings us comfort. Jesus brings us joy and hope, knowing that He removed all of our sins at Calvary. If you need some teaching on the matter, the you tube channel, 'faith cometh by hearing' has a fine teaching series titled, 'change of mind' which helped me understand the matter.
The notion of Mark being "rewritten" or "improved" by Matthew and Luke is an interesting one to me. It begs the question, Why are there 4 Gospels? Why not just a single one? (Or a dozen or more, including the so-called non-canonical scriptures) Even if there were 4 - or more - traditions or communities or random stories circulating in 1st century Palestine, wouldn't it make sense to clean up the story/message/teaching? Even Caesar Augustus at Nicea apparently was not interested in blending everything together to make it more coherent or consistent or in compliance with his notion of using this movement for his own ends. Why not? It is readily apparent that teachers, theologians, scholars, priests, bishops, etc. who have studied these 4 gospels throughout the 20 centuries after Nicea have noticed the differences, absences, repetitions, even contradictions among them and yet did not think it necessary to justify, or explain away, or chose just one or consolidate them. Why? I mean, if they just made it up, why not? And, c'mon, Dr. T, if, at the original ending of Mark, the women really never told anyone what they saw, how did the author learn of it? Big eye roll here. I tend to think there is a good reason to keep 4 very different reports of the same event, not just because it is ultimately beyond our grasp. Sort of like a Zen koan.
There is an excellent series on The Historical Jesus by The Teaching Company that is fantastic. I found it funny because its an american university so the teacher spends the first twenty minutes saying "look, if you are a seminary student or fundamentalist you DON"T belong here". In other words 'this is an ACADEMIC course, not a theological one.' But all the way through he kind of has to keep apologizing in order to keep from getting shot I guess. Anyway, you can find it for cheap at their site, or in other ways, cough. But he runs through all this stuff in detail. His conclusion is that Jesus is an apocalyptic teacher, but then he freely admits that almost EVERY ideology has claimed Jesus for their own. Personally I liked the liberation theology interpretation. I'm glad to see this sort of thing becaues christianity has either been blacklisted by people with bad experiences with the church, or else taken over by evangelicals claiming only ONE thing is true, and its coincidentally what they are saying, or people who simply don't want to talk about it. I was quite interested in the 'new' teachings of Jesus they found, crap, I forget where, but it was quite interesting and VERY wild. So for example in the gospel Jesus says to 'walk with the beggar', while in the new text, Jesus says you ARE that beggar. As Pink Floyd famously sang, "I am you and what I see is me". My beef has always been with Paul who I don't think was a reformed christian at all but a guy doing his damnest to wreck the thing, and I"m reminded of a poll done by theologians on the most important people in western culture, and they ranked Paul ahead of Jesus. As Kierkegaard said, the last christian died on the cross.
"Walk with" vs "You are" is language drift; back in the day, walking was how most people got from place to place, it was slow, dangerous, dusty, dirty, brought people to the same place, brought people to the same level(ish), and _slow._ So it's a good shorthand implied metaphor for becoming empathetic with someone on a visceral level. Which is lost when walking becomes shorter-distance and less onerous.
@@williamchamberlain2263 Well, its the 'drift' that is most at issue, but thats true, when you think of it in that way, the two interpretations become that much closer together. I think in a 'democracy' thats kind of an underlying foundation, you 'walk with' somebody, meaning you have no more power than them. That makes you 'equal', but many have a hard time with that thinking it means 'the same'.
9:02 “Why do you call me good?” Maybe Jesus really wanted to know why or he could guess why but wanted his questioner to think in a deeper way about what prompted the question. It was to get people nearby who overheard as well to stop and think. Sometimes Jesus was given a “word of knowledge” about someone such as the woman at the well in John chapter 4. He knew what was in mankind generally but wasn’t trying to read peoples’ minds all the time.
Since a documentary crew wasn't following him around even if he existed we could not know what he said so your point is mute when you quote a mythological character .not a shred of evidence outside the bible .
I find it funny the gospel of Mark is considered less known when I feel we used to reference it way more than Matthew (back when I used to go to church) .
20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family[b] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.” His own family thought he was delusional Mark 3:20-21
Yep. You don't hear Christians quoting that Bible story very often, do you? :-) Especially not if you worship Jesus' mother as 'The Holy Mother of God'. Well, the Holy Mother of God thought Jesus was out of his mind!
I would encourage anyone watching this to consider what Dr. Tabor is saying, but to also look into other, opposing views to get a fuller understanding. He says several things in this interview which betray a scholarly bias, and makes a few claims there doesn't seem to be much, if any, evidence for. So hear him out, but don't take it as (I can't help myself!) gospel truth ;)
Thank you for taking over for Sciman Dan for Today's video, sorrry this is on an older video since the comments on that video would go to Sciman Dan and not you Emma. Have a good day and keep making Enterprise noises, i wont judge lol
Mark inverted the tragedy by the young man at the testifying to Christ resurrection . 16;8 running away afraid telling no one is because the Roman solider testified to Christ divinity . To more would be anti climatic
Excellent video. Yes, we want to know the true "ending" of Jesus. But it is unnecessary as long as we remember he conquered Death and as we could feel his new and glorious life in the traces he has been leaving on the Catholic Church, his living body, all over the centuries.
Matthew and Luke "adjust things?" Matthew introduces three stories of delay? Yes. But Mark includes one, and it seems tom be the same story as one Matthew uses. It certainly ends with the same warning to watch. Probably Mark wrote his Gospel before the destruction of Jerusalem (maybe by the mid 60s) but as the whole disaster was ramping up, and Matthew and Luke wrote after. That would add a background for the sermon as Matthew writes it that Mark did not have. But it does not alter the sermon in any large part. (BTW this sermon had been circulating in oral form and perhaps as one of the logia of the Lord Matthrew recorded before Mark wrote and before Matthew's Gospel reached its final form. That is clear from an examination of the text.) When the parousia would happen is as much an open question before as after. The idea that Jesus (and these are definitely his words and his voice, not Mark's) was telling them to expect the parousia relatively soon is to read back into the text something that is not there in any of the Gospels. Jesus clearly says "no one knows" the hour, so be ready (Mark 13:32). All this certainty by scholars that Jesus meant soon is as far off as those who predicted his return in 1988. "No one knows" means no one knows.
You should interview David Bentley Hart. If you're conversant with Deleuze, Hegel, etc. check out his book on Christian aesthetics, "The Beauty of the Infinite." I don't know how interested you are in pro-Christian arguments. But he's a very sophisticated defender.
for me where it all falls apart is the fact that all the gospels were written decades after the fact, plus: jesus was a member of arameic speaking people, many of whom were illiterate, and the gospels were written by well educated greek speakers.
Oral tradition. It isnt what you think. They didnt just remember the gist and change it at will. They practiced repeating the stories Precisely. Thus all the begats ..(and mistakes in them). And all of jesus followers werent poor or uneducated. Theres pkenty of reason not to believe but by this mechanism you shoulsnt believe the vast majority of history
@@cdreid9999 i personally never saw oral tradition to be accurate. stories get embellished pretty much by definition. and i believe they did change it purposefully.
Get lifetime access to Dr Tabor's 7 part lecture series on Mark using my affiliate link here! emmathorne1--pursuit4knowledge.thrivecart.com/firstgospel/
Signing up also gets you a course guide, a copy of Mark so you can follow along with the same version as Dr Tabor and maps to reference as you go! 🦆📚
I always appreciate your wonderful resources! TY 🐸
how about a 3 hour chat with Richard Carrier - surely that is what the non-superstitious world would love to listen to
@@markmountain7981 John was the prophet who bridged the gap between the OT prophets and Jesus the Messiah , whom the OT prophets pointed to, and the realization of the kingdom of God they foresaw. As such it is completely in line with Mark's presentation (actually Peter's whom Mark quoted here) to begin with John and his message. It is Mark's way of introducing the one who is the main character in the drama. The quote from Malachi and Isaiah give OT support for John's role in introducing the Messiah.
I signed up for the course using your affiliate link. Looking forward to the course! 🙂
@Mark B I would suggest you don't, hes clueless, he has mentioned twice the verse when jesus says why do you call me good , every reputable Christian knows what this means and I'll explain ...
“Why do you call me good? To ask this question, Jesus assumes the perspective of the rich young man. No one is completely good except God alone, therefore it is not proper for the young man to address Jesus as “Good Teacher” until he is ready to acknowledge that Jesus is God.”
Much more better apologists are around, sam shamoun, who's known for debating Muslims, has amazing knowledge very well read ..
Jay dyer Is another one ..
And the gospels are different perspectives of the same jesus events .
I really love that Emma puts chapters in her videos, so helpful if I want to look back!
I grew up in the English CofE Education system. Everyone who could not afford Public School had no choice. This meant indoctrination in the Christian Faith. Prayer and Hymns at Morning Assembly. RE Classes. Choir Practice. Church and weekly teachings from a member of the Church. The latter made me realise how ludicrous this Religion makes people behave. Even at the age of 6 I was not convinced that the Bible was at all reliable. Fair Play to those who believe. I hope it makes you a decent human being. For me it is a jumbled mess of silly anecdotes with no verifiable evidence to support the claims contained therein. Faith is all there is.
aah, im so sorry you had to go through that :( hope it wasn't in any way abusive or inhumane in there
Aaaaaaaand thats why you have to look into Islam.
@@kazelkaze6210 right, coz Islam is so much better than Christianity, and not even more easily debunked.
@@toefungus85241 Very kind of you. Thanks. Corporal Punishment was commonplace. It was just the way of life back then. It doesn't seem as bad as the Catholic Love version of education. FYI in the UK, Public School is what Americans call Private Schools. And the CofE State Schools are what Americans call Public School. The Cane was used regularly, as were wooden rulers. The Birch was banned while I was at school. Face Slaps were an everyday occurrence. For example: If one asked "Why didn't god..." That was an instant reason to get the Cane 10 times across your bare bottom, in front of your classmates. Ah School, The Best Days of Your Life. I don't hate god, I hate the deeds done in her name.
@@kazelkaze6210 No thank you. My wife is Hindu. 10 Million gods is more than enough. But thank you for the suggestion though.
Dr. Tabor is great teacher. I think I’ve read most of his books. Nice seeing him interviewed by this intelligent young lady.
" Marketing " is the operative word when it comes to selling the "Jesus Narative. "
Have you read Nick Tosches' novel Under Tiberius? A Roman Imperial functionary, Tiberius's speechwriter/PR guy, essentially, pisses the emperor off and is exiled to Judea where he hooks up with a scruffy charismatic con man from Nazareth and together they hatch a plan to fleece the rubes by having the con man pose as The Messiah. Ok novel but a genius premise!
I always had the impression that the Gospel of Mark was derived from a stage play. It's fast paced and easily presented. In those times you did plays.
Since practically everyone at the time was illiterate, it is very likely people were told stories like this through a play.
so 😔 😔
@@kellydalstok8900Why so? How do you mean that? If something happend and I want to tell someone, I invent a play?
Emma, I hope that when I'm wrong in life, that you are the one who alerts me. I find you so easy to listen to. You have a natural grace, even when you're on the war path
Keep up the great work..
Everytime I watch one of Emma's videos I walk around my house saying Christian the way she does for the rest of the day.
Really insightful episode! Makes me want to read the Gospel of Mark now, even though I am not a Christian.
he didnt once encourage you to see the truth and put your trust in Jesus (so sad)
Mark is almost a film writer. I get the impression that this story was delivered orally - as a traveling show. Many of the reveals are at the end (oh, by the way, he was very rich). The name of the story is "The Beginning," and that is what it is. The end leaves the live audience stunned, asking the question, "So how did we, all these years later, get this Good News?" In essence, Mark's story is telling us that the "Resurrection" happens in the heart and mind of the follower of Jesus.
Beautiful. Thank you!
the same way a short story has a surprise at the end. Very interesting.
Emma your timing perfect! I just took a tumble on my Harley like 1hr ago and your content always makes me feel better
Are you okay??
Got some road rash, bruised my hip, messed up my jacket but overall I'm alright. Bike looks worse than I do. Poor things handle bars are bent all to hell, lost my battery cover, sale bags on the right side are jacked up, tanks scarfed up and dented, speakers are broken and the mirror is scratched up
@@rikysis Glad you survived to tell the tale!
@@rikysis oof. Hope you and the bike all the best!
Someone once attempted to label me an expert. I begged off this label, saying, "Experts are people who state opinions as facts."
first :0 also I’m exited to hear this bc I’ve read and believed the Bible my whole life (bc it’s just what I grew up with) and through your content I’ve realized it’s ok to be critical of the Bible and I hope this becomes a series
Welcome to the community
It's so freeing and refreshing to finally be free of the blinders that made it impossible to look at my own religion. Had to step away first, but now that I can come back as an atheist, there is some seriously fascinating stuff going on! Can't wait to be the Bible scholar atheist amongst my Christian family! That'll be fun!
The more you learn about the Bible, the more ridiculous it becomes.
@@wolveswithoutteeth yes..
I believe the Bible contains some history specific to the ancient Hebrews and the peoples with whom they interacted. However, the Old Testament was included to create the bonafides for the messiah figure that the Bible presents in the New Testament. The Old Testament is not a complete nor accurate rendering of the history according to the Hebrews. In my opinion, it should be ignored as part of a spiritual guide, and if one chooses to still be a Christian at all, one should only be guided by the words attributed to Jesus, and do so taking into full account the context. To whom was speaking, what the dominate culture, and how was what he said targeted to the culture?
For example, in the US we have a lot of people who take the quote about Jesus not coming in peace to mean they get to be violent to non believers. But in context, that quote was Jesus explaining to his tribal group that he understood that he was disrupting their political, economic, and religious systems; that he knew he was causing breaks in family, and breaks in the structure of society. He wasn’t instructing for violence, but noting that he was disruptive by intention and for a reason. He explained that reason. The Hebrews lived to the “law”, the covenant with Jehovah, and included in their mythos was the idea of a messiah to end the contract. He said he came to complete the law…to end the covenant in accordance with their own belief system.
By understanding his mission and the parameters, one can see that no one who is not under the law needs to be released from the contract, which happened by his completing the law.
I find Jesus to be more interesting since giving up Christianity. He saw himself as a path to follow, a light to guide. And he was correct that one had to have a mind tuned to his frequency to get what he was saying. He was more metaphysical than Christians ever notice, in my experience with Christians.
I remain fascinated after having Dr Tabor for several courses at William and Mary in the 80s!
Wonderful interview (as usual), Emma. Thank you. ❤❤❤
Awesome! I always enjoy your work Emma!
Mark is a fascinating look at a Jesus who is mostly known from what he does. As Dr. Tabor said, Mark has sayings, but no long sermons. In John you get the reverse, Jesus perform a number of sacred actions and the rest is commentary. One thing I learned in my course on Mark is the Messianic Secret, that is Jesus constantly telling people not to say anything about what he's said or done. The people run off and tell everyone anyway, but for whatever reason, the Jesus of Mark wanted to remain mostly unknown at least until the entry into Jerusalem. I expect time limitations are why it didn't get addressed, and that is it a bit of a rabbit hole of its own.
Now I want to read Marc. I'm an atheist! Thank you for this wonderfull interview!
That quote of Jesus/mark saying: why do you call me good? There is nothing good but god.
Is like woahhhhhhhhhh!
in the context of Christianity, but I know god is neither perfect nor good.
learning is so fun!!!
it's the way a Jew would answer the question.
They've made Jesus god when he "supposedly"said he was not good and said he was the son of man ..not son of god..
I am so glad you are moving into more of this kind of content!
An interview with an expert is more entertaining and much more educational than a reaction to ridiculous Christian hot takes.
Wow, thanks Dr. Tabor! This was really interesting to listen to. It's always nice to see a great teacher talk about their area of expertise!
I hope God speaks to you and you realise the truth in the Gospel and dont alway see this as a fairy (history) story.
Yet another great discussion taking place on Emma’s channel. Thank you Emma for holding your light up to the darkness of ignorance. I don’t think people appreciate the courage it takes to do what you do, but it’s important work. You do it well and you do it with grace.
It does not take courage to take a position from a lack of knowledge and understanding arising from an ill-informed study practice. Tabor is not an acceptable source for Bible study. And it is not because of his lack of reasoning skill, it is because he exhibits NO valid arguments against what is written. He does present his own estimation of his thoughts about what is written and the style it is written in. He stands on a two legged stool.
Possible Ultimate Subtext of Mark (minus after-market supplements): "Nearly 40 years later (when the gospel was written), we're still waiting!"
As for Paul: "I never actually met the guy when he was alive, but I had a vision (I _think_ was him) that changed my life. Sadly, my buddies who were with me never wrote a word about it."
What's extra fascinating in that context is the realization that the Epistles of Paul (the oldest New Testament manuscripts) were all written _before_ Mark.
Great video. Great interview. Great information. Imagine what would happen if more Christians knew what Biblical (and Rabbinical) scholars/historians know.
What I found notable is that Paul never mentions any biographical details about Jesus. His doctrine is *all* about the Resurrection.
You'd think, maybe, he'd slip in a reference to "that time Jesus raised the dead", or "that miracle with the loaves and fishes", etc. just to bolster his claims about the divinity of Jesus.
But no, nothing. Almost like all of those stories were added later....
@@simongiles9749 Interesting observation. Paul was a salesman and every salesman has a story. In addition, Paul was not a contemporary of Jesus and was not claiming to be.
Having gone to a Catholic high school in the North of England, it's quite shocking that Mark is considered the "forgotten Gospel" with this being part of the curriculum as decided by the school.
We learnt about it with the context that it was the closest to the truth of the faith as well as its historical context.
Once again, atheists helping tell better bible stories.
Keep doing you, Emma 👍
The Jesus myth theory is not accepted by actual historians, though.
@@josepheridu3322 not by actual Christian historians, you mean. Not by a lot of Christian historians you mean. You cannot mean not by all historians because that is simply not true.
@@xofpi I'm not talking about the religion of the historians. Even the interviewed man in this video is agnostic but he rejects the Jesus myth theory.
@@josepheridu3322 It doesn't matter if every single historian in the world rejects the Jesus myth theory (which is not the case). Appeals to authority or to popular opinion are fallacies, i.e., do not translate into "proof" that a statement or position is correct. The Jesus myth theory is not diminished by it. It stands on its own two feet and convinces on its own merit.
@@xofpi "It doesn't matter if every single historian in the world rejects the Jesus myth theory [....] The Jesus myth theory is not diminished by it."
You can claim the same for any other conspiracy theory, though.
Fascinating discussion. I have a Masters in Theology from an evangelical institution (Dallas Theological Seminary) yet diving into this type of biblical criticism is new for me. I am really enjoying the channel.
Those teaching you in classroom have probably sign an article of faith, which says that regardless of the facts they'll teach otherwise. Ask them.
@@surfk9836 well I graduated in 1991 and am now an atheist. I don't have many conversations with them.
I've been surrounded by DTS students, grads, and professors for most of my life. (Chaplain Bill Bryan married my wife and me ~25 years ago, just to start.) I, too, wish this kind of Biblical criticism had been a part of my upbringing.
I would have thought this is exactly the sort of material you should have covered?
I tried to come in with an open mind but after watching a bit just solidified my doubts on the Christian faith.
Try Dr.Michael S.Heiser videos
Wait, I'm confused. This video has nothing to do with evangelism.
You should doubt faith as a general concept. It's a concept which is as reliable as flipping a coin.
But this is a video about Mark as an academic subject. The title alone should be clue enough of that. No christian would tolerate the idea that Jesus was created in a book.
It gets worse and worse for anybody that believes the Jesus story and other Bible stories...just fact after fact that puts the myth to bed...nowadays we have access to information not available years past ..for instance I thought as a kid the gospels were first hand accounts but I now know it's ridiculous
One of your best, Emma! Excellent interview; relevant questions and then letting Dr Tabor answer fully and completely without interruption. Kudos!
As an 80 yo who was educated at a King Edward VI Grammar School in England, I have difficulty recognizing almost anything in your comment.
The school,was founded in about 1470 and granted Royal Charter by King Edward VI in 1552. It was a VERY traditional all boys school with a superb faculty from Oxford, Cambridge and many other first class universities. The Headmaster was an Oxford Don, a Latin scholar and writer of Latin text books. The curriculum was split between Science and Maths, modern and ancient languages and history, geography literature and general subjects. A wonderful mix of subject.
I NEVER EVER felt as if we were being INDOCTRINATED, we had a healthy SKEPTICISM towards everything especially religion.
When it came to our SCRIPTURE classes, we were NEVER forced to comply in fact we expressed our disbelief vocally, some masters were not as tolerant as others but reasoned free expression was the general rule, I was very vocal.
I am and always have been a PROUD ATHEIST and I recognize some of the things you talk about.
Morning assembly, I always loved the hymns, communal singing was always a joy, the rest of assembly was a prayer and notices from the Head Master.
INDOCTRINATION, Are you serious, Scripture was reading of the Bible some Bible stories BUT THERE WAS NO INDOCTRINATION. In fact I was welcomed by my fellow students because I was SO OUTSPOKEN IN CRITICISM OF THE CHRISTIANS MESSAGE.
We actually discussed things, we were NOT BEATEN OR ABUSED, DISSENSION WAS NOT SUPPRESSED AT ALL.
We were caned by the Headmaster for bad behavior, I had my share of canines but none of it ever reached the level of abuse.
The general,attitude toward religion was one of moderate RIDICULE, I would say that 90% of my fellow students regarded god as a bit of a lunatic to be tolerated not loved.
MY EDUCATION AT KEGS was MARVELOUS and experience that every school kid SHOULD HAVE.
Disciple was strict, you were reminded why you were there, TO LEARN AND PROGRESS AND BE A PART OF AN EDUCATED COMMUNITY.
I still have a warm spot for the C of E if you MUST have a religion then C of E is by far the best.
Fantastic! Enjoyed it very much. I’m familiar with Dr. Tabor and I’m glad you interviewed him. Faith needs to be inclusive and informed. Missed the coffee cup! Lol
Dr. Tabor is amazing. I follow his RUclips and Blog. The archeology is fascinating and thorough.
I had they same experience with Mark at the same age.
Mark is the master of understatement . It’s what he leaves out and Jesus body language secrecy motif that says it all.
Blessed are those who believe without seeing and more blessed are those who do not screutinize when reading the Good News. Specially, knowing that the Gosples were written at least 60 years after the event. I think I had cheese sandwich yesterday but don't remember exactly.
This is the first interview by E Thorne I've seen. Very well done. Really appreciated the question about historical context.
I found this video by accident and I absolutely loved it. It matches with some other readings from spaniard and english scholars. Thank you!
Dr Tabor! Another big win, Emma. You’re loading up on professors from my hometown!
Mark seemed to be saying Jesus was just a guy God really liked
Yes, Jesus certainly wasn't born as the only begotten son of God according to Mark.
There are quite a few passages in Mark that indicate otherwise
This was so interesting. I am no longer Christian, but I do love learning about the stories in the Bible from a historical perspective. It makes me want to go read the Book of Mark.
Tremendous! Glad I finally got a chance to watch this. More please!
This was great, felt like you both were just starting to scratch the surface on the subject. I suppose that the full course is where the real meat is discussed :) thank you
Wow this was wonderful, thank you Emma (and Dr Tabor). I really think you are one of the most interest skeptics and you bring a lot of great info---and some good laughs as well. Btw, I'm a 74 year old fan of your's. I learn a lot sometimes---like this.
This 68yr old agrees!
@@Aurealeus Always said-- our generation has 4 groups (roughly). One quarter are bat shit crazy--they'll believe anything that Trump and Faux News tells them (and the Brexit band). Another are likely to believe them but possibly think a tiny bit more for themselves. Another quarter who are normally okay--maybe have a subject or two. And the last quarter, we still remember the 60s, and we fought and still fight for the same things "kids" (sorry but when your 70...).are today. Sadly though, I don't think we are vocal enough.
@@515aleon I'd give anything to go back.
I can't believe how many from our generation have switched sides and abandoned their morals to sell their *soles and the democratic ideals of our nation down the drain for a buck.
@@Aurealeus How true is that. I'm sure will happen to other generations too. Did you ever hear "if you are a conservative when you are young, you have no heart, and if you are liberal when you are old, you have no brains?" I HATE that. SInce when is caring for humanity, brainless. And if it is--okay. I'm down with that. :D
@@515aleon Yes, and another version... most people start out as liberal and end up voting conservative as they get older. Which of course isn't true according to expert studies that found political leanings pretty much stay stable except on occasion when they do shift, as we found out w/ Trump. On the other hand, studies have also found that conservatives rarely will switch and vote liberal, whereas liberals are more likely to switch to conservative issues as they age. Seems to me, an insecurity issue with aging. So much for becoming wise as one ages, huh?
So basically Mark 16:9-20 : the first ever fanfiction that went viral *kudos to the author(s)*
Great video, Emma. I came across it as a link from another of Dr. Tabor's interviews and have looked at some of your other videos on here. Really interesting viewing. I'm not a scholar but I consider myself an 'enthusiastic amateur' from both a historical and faith perspective. Some will disagree with me but I find that the work of Tabor, Crossan, Goodacre et al give my own spirituality a greater meaning and understanding. So thankyou and keep up the excellent work. 🙂
i recently got to borrow a book of 'the hidden books of the bible' i haven't started it yet, but im excited, because i love the in depth bible studies that aren't from a christian viewpoint.
the apocrypha? Just wait til you read Enoch it's a hoot
Follow up this video with Secret Mark. The gay Jesus stuff is really juicy.
Love you, Emma. Also love Dr Tabor. Such a wonderful source of truth.
There is an excellent lecture by Dr. Nehemiah Gordon who, due to suspicion from the Greek and Aramaic texts, thought that the Gospel of Mathew must have been originally written in Hebrew. He also knew of a letter by Rabbi Shem Tov discussing with another rabbi, that Mathew had written his gospel himself and that there was a copy of it in a Synagogue in Caesarea. Anyway, to make a long story short, Nehemiah located a Hebrew manuscript of Matthew. It’s an interesting lecture series, but I guess my point is that several of the apostles (if not all) wrote their own account (gospel) themselves, and because it’s their native tongue, most of the oldest ones were written in Hebrew rather than the Greek and Aramaic texts we have today. He proves it in many ways and it’s worth a watch - Nehemiah Gordon, Hebrew Matthew.
I read the KJV, and read the 4 gospels over and over again and the difference would always strike me. This is a wonderful talk that helps bring some understanding that I've lacked for years!!!
if you're interested in biblical scholarship, it's important to note that the KJV is perhaps the worst common translation.
Great interview Emma. Can’t wait to see you guest on the SciManDan Chanel.
Excellent interview. Very informative and inspiring. I will use your link to sign up for Tabor's course. Thank you!
inspiring to become a history teacher or a follower of Jesus?
Thank you Emma!!
I disagree with Tabor on a couple of things but that's primarily on matters of interpretation and the existence of Q.
It's always a good idea to give him a listen.
If you find yourself thinking he's wrong about what's in the actual text, you're wrong.
These are great! I’m learning stuff I’ve never heard of!
Its tragic many " Christians " trust very word in the gospels as if they are absolute truth when they are not.
I've never seen it say a video was posted "seconds" ago before.
Good watching. I've always been interested in the historicity of biblical events and biblical authors and even though your channel has always made me smile I do find this little tangent interesting. I've seen you do a few of these and I hope that you will do more.
Christianity began as sun worship, the stories about Jesus are symbolic.
He is just a personification of the sun, made into a god figure later on.
The sun "dies" for 3 days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin"
The sun rising in the morning is "the saviour of mankind"
The sun is "The light of the World"
The sun "walks on water" is just the reflection of the sun on water/the sea.
"He cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him", is just sun rays.
Jesus' "crown of thorns" is just the sun's glare, also know as a halo.
The sun's "followers", "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High": thus.."he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30 degrees, hense, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified", which represents its passing through the equinoxes.
The vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
The reason why saviour myths are so similar with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet, because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens.
Christianity is ancient astrology, it's just fables about the sun.
Check out Acharya S aka D.M Murdock for more info.
@@Gamefan86 Thanks for sharing that interesting perspective.
There were many mystery cults around at the time. Christianity was just lucky to get picked as an emperor’s favourite.
The teachings not making much sense to the layman was the point. Only the initiated got the insider info into their meaning. Think of it as an early freemasonry.
@@Gamefan86 Interesting as it is to see all of those comparisons being made, it's nothing more than post hoc explanation if you don't have the evidence to back it up (that is, earlier texts about sun worshipping that already included all or most of those ideas). Anyone can make such an analysis by cherrypicking data and using metaphors to explain away said data.
I'd like to hear an explanation of how the Sun multiplies bread and heals the lepers, or why would the sun go around preaching about God and referencing the Old Testament.
@@kellydalstok8900 I wouldn't say freemasonry. Christianity manoeuvred itself into a position where it had established itself among the common folk. It offered people paradise for all where other faith systems did not. There was luck but I suppose you could say that Christianity (The Roman Catholic Church) was just the Roman Empire rebranding itself and extending its power and influence at the same time. A political masterstroke?
So this is the video that finally pushed me to join. Excellent content. Thank you.
I'm so glad, thank you (:
I read Mark in a greek exegesis class in 1974 at SFTS. We focused on the messianic secret.
this was so good. thank you so much for this.
Thank you for sharing this discussion. It wasn't what I was expecting, but I was pleasantly surprised.
Different versions of the same solar myth. It would make sense that Mark is essentially a drama as Dr Tabor says. It's a Greco Roman mythical story, closely linked to Greek Tragedy.
I am very impressed with this production. Dr Tabor is wise beyond words and that he gave you some insight say's very much about whomever produced this intelligent video.
Cudos,
Michael Jeremy Leavitt
When I was a believer many years ago I found there was a tendency to read Mark as a precisè of the longer gospels and as I read a story in Mark that occurred in a longer version in say Luke or Matthew I'd be filling in the details from those gospels and using them to make Mark "fit in" with my evangelical narrative, for example the story of the rich young ruler calling Jesus the good teacher.
That kind of reading of Mark tends to dilute it's originality and difference from Matthew and Luke. It is interesting that Matthew, Mark and Luke together are called the "synoptic gospels" - that is they see the Jesus story from a similar point of view - which is a rather ahistorical approach that robs them of their individuality.
so says Dr. B Ehrman
Always love your videos emma you always have interesting intelligent videos
I appreciate this discussion.
Fascinating stuff; Jesus saying 'none is good but God' and 'why have you forsaken me?' both seem to suggest that he didn't believe that he himself was God.
And also seems to suggest he was having doubts while on the cross. Or at least felt abandoned.
The "why have you forsaken me" bit was him referencing Psalm 22. The numbers (chapter and verse) we use when referencing the bible didn't exist back then. So when they wanted to mention a psalm, they didn't say the number, but the first line. Psalm 22 was a known messianic prophesy that specifically dealt with the messiah's death (what the onlookers were saying to mock him, the soldiers dividing his garments and casting lots for them, the fact that his bones were out of joint and his hands and feet were pierced, etc). He was drawing their attention to this psalm to make sure they made the connection.
It's also worth noting (regarding the "why do you call me good" bit) that answering a question with a question is not only a very Jewish thing to do, but specifically a very Jesus thing to do. If you read through all the gospels and pay attention, you'll see him doing this over and over. We can see several examples of this in Mark alone (2:5-9, 4:38-40, 10:2-3, 12:14-17). When you realize this, and see how he uses questions elsewhere, it reads very differently. It's not a disclaimer ("Don't call me good") but a question meant to make the man think about the implications of what he had said- "You call me good, and we know only God is good... so what does that mean?"
I've always viewed Mark as the original true Gospel. This is to me the truth of Jesus. Matthew and Luke didn't like certain aspects of Mark so they rewrote it. But to me Mark is the truth.
Emma, thanks for the interview with Dr. Tabor. Purchased the course through your link 👍
Great interview! Your channel just keeps getting better!
Excellent interviewer, she listens spectacularly well
It has the resurrection, the women are told he raised from the dead just as they had been told. What it doesn't have is the ascension into heaven and the story ends before they go see Jesus is Galilee. It is interesting that it says they told no one, but if it's a true account, they clearly did eventually.
Yes I think we should keep in mind that that gospel was not written in a vacuum, it's written to already well-established communities so they've already obviously believed in the resurrection and I think we can reasonably argue the Ascension.
Although Mark does seem to be writing the gospel in a way to get the reader to think for themselves and to make a decision themselves on what they want to believe, I think it's foolish to think that Mark and his already christian community audiences don't already believe these things but when they present this gospel to perhaps struggling members or two Outsiders then it becomes a make a choice gospel.
PS Yes Jesus says earlier in the gospel that he will die and then be risen, and so the young man in white just confirms it and repeats yes its just like he said -- Mark 14:28
@@youngknowledgeseeker I mean, you can argue it, but you're arguing something which is completely unevidenced until later writings.
It's not in Paul or Mark. So you're purely in the realm of speculation to do so.
@@rainbowkrampus Ascension is not in Paul? What? Paul is earlier than Mark and definitely believes in an Ascension. So it can be argued this idea was in early christian communities. Doesn't mean all of them but at least some if not all. If Mark is the source behind the Markan comment (thus cleansing all food) then this may indicate a Pauline theology and belief or one compatible.
@@youngknowledgeseeker But Paul's Jesus was purely hallucinatory. So how can you trust the guy? He seems to have had some contact with James and Peter but he apparently considered them irrelevant. Paul comes across as a power mad nut case fanatic. And if he had to insist that he does not lie, he was most likely a liar.
it's not an "eye-witness" account. The people who wrote it never met Jesus of Nazareth in person. He was dead. The canonical gospels are "faith portraits" written by believers years after the man died and were retelling stories in perfect Greek that they had heard others tell.
the paralyzed guy is Rabbi Hillel, a very famous rabbi and leader in the early first century. It is said that as a child Rabbi Hillel desperatly wanted to study the torah and go to school to become a rabbi. But his family was very poor and could not afford school. So everyday he climbs up on top of the roof and looks down and listens to the Rabbis teach the students. On an especially cold day in winter they notice him on the roof looking down into the synagog. Hes so cold hes litterally paralyzed and barely alive. Later it sais he attended school there. I think they let him in for free for his increadible dedication to learning.
Thank you very much for your insight Dr. Tabor! Very interesting indeed.
She is, like, a really good interviewer. Proclamations in Mark about ''and they were amazed," were an awful intrusion of the narrator coming out of the text, the narrator forcing his view on the reader. "and their eyes opened and they said ooh"--something like that is more concrete. At any rate, the former undermines the attempt at the sublime.
Did you get that each character's response to Jesus's ministry in the book serves as an example of soil being able to grow the Sower's seed? Some will grow quickly but wilt just as some people will be excited but lose enthusiasm.
@@paigerasmussen5212 So some seeds are predestined to grow while others are genetically inferior and deserve to die. The mustard seeds shall inherit the Earth
"Then we must deprive him of the seeming.** For if he is going to be thought just he will have honours and gifts because of that esteem. We cannot be sure in that case whether he is just for justice' sake or for the sake of the gifts and the honours. So we must strip him bare of everything but justice and make his state the opposite of his imagined counterpart.* Though doing no wrong he must have the repute of the greatest injustice, so that he may be put to the test as regards justice through not softening because of ill repute and the consequences thereof. But let him hold on his course unchangeable even unto death, seeming all his life to be unjust though being just, that so, both men attaining to the limit, the one of injustice, the other of justice, we may pass judgement which of the two is the happier."....
For the height of injustice * is to seem just without being so. To the perfectly unjust man, then, we must assign perfect injustice and withhold nothing of it, but we must allow him, while committing the greatest Wrongs, to have secured for himself the greatest reputation for justice; and if he does happen to trip,*' we must concede to him the power to correct his mistakes by his ability to speak persuasively if any of his misdeeds come to light, and when force is needed, to employ force by reason of his manly spirit and vigour and his provision of friends and money ; and when we have set up an unjust man of this character, our theory must set the just man at his side-a simple and noble man, who, in the phrase of Aeschylus, does not wish to seem but be good....
We must tell it, then ; and even if my language is somewhat rude and brutal,'' you must not suppose, Socrates, that it is I who speak thus, but those who commend injustice above justice. What they will say is this : that such being his disposition the just man -will have to endure the lash, the rack, chains, the branding-iron in his eyes, and finally, after every extremity of suffering, he will be crucified,*' and so will learn his lesson that not to be but to seem just is what we ought to desire."
[The Republic, Plato, Book 2]
Jesus brings us comfort. Jesus brings us joy and hope, knowing that He removed all of our sins at Calvary. If you need some teaching on the matter, the you tube channel, 'faith cometh by hearing' has a fine teaching series titled, 'change of mind' which helped me understand the matter.
And Santa clause brings children comfort...until critical thinking skills kick in at some point.
Emma, thanks for confirming that my knowledge is still up to date.
10:43 You didn't have to trigger my brazilian PTSD like that😫
Great interview. Well done, Emma. Great lecture, James.
Great interview, Emma! Bravissimo:)
I just had this argument yesterday happy to see this
The notion of Mark being "rewritten" or "improved" by Matthew and Luke is an interesting one to me. It begs the question, Why are there 4 Gospels? Why not just a single one? (Or a dozen or more, including the so-called non-canonical scriptures) Even if there were 4 - or more - traditions or communities or random stories circulating in 1st century Palestine, wouldn't it make sense to clean up the story/message/teaching? Even Caesar Augustus at Nicea apparently was not interested in blending everything together to make it more coherent or consistent or in compliance with his notion of using this movement for his own ends. Why not? It is readily apparent that teachers, theologians, scholars, priests, bishops, etc. who have studied these 4 gospels throughout the 20 centuries after Nicea have noticed the differences, absences, repetitions, even contradictions among them and yet did not think it necessary to justify, or explain away, or chose just one or consolidate them. Why? I mean, if they just made it up, why not? And, c'mon, Dr. T, if, at the original ending of Mark, the women really never told anyone what they saw, how did the author learn of it? Big eye roll here. I tend to think there is a good reason to keep 4 very different reports of the same event, not just because it is ultimately beyond our grasp. Sort of like a Zen koan.
One correction - I should have said Constantine, not Augustus.
There is an excellent series on The Historical Jesus by The Teaching Company that is fantastic. I found it funny because its an american university so the teacher spends the first twenty minutes saying "look, if you are a seminary student or fundamentalist you DON"T belong here". In other words 'this is an ACADEMIC course, not a theological one.'
But all the way through he kind of has to keep apologizing in order to keep from getting shot I guess. Anyway, you can find it for cheap at their site, or in other ways, cough.
But he runs through all this stuff in detail. His conclusion is that Jesus is an apocalyptic teacher, but then he freely admits that almost EVERY ideology has claimed Jesus for their own. Personally I liked the liberation theology interpretation.
I'm glad to see this sort of thing becaues christianity has either been blacklisted by people with bad experiences with the church, or else taken over by evangelicals claiming only ONE thing is true, and its coincidentally what they are saying, or people who simply don't want to talk about it.
I was quite interested in the 'new' teachings of Jesus they found, crap, I forget where, but it was quite interesting and VERY wild. So for example in the gospel Jesus says to 'walk with the beggar', while in the new text, Jesus says you ARE that beggar. As Pink Floyd famously sang, "I am you and what I see is me".
My beef has always been with Paul who I don't think was a reformed christian at all but a guy doing his damnest to wreck the thing, and I"m reminded of a poll done by theologians on the most important people in western culture, and they ranked Paul ahead of Jesus. As Kierkegaard said, the last christian died on the cross.
"Walk with" vs "You are" is language drift; back in the day, walking was how most people got from place to place, it was slow, dangerous, dusty, dirty, brought people to the same place, brought people to the same level(ish), and _slow._ So it's a good shorthand implied metaphor for becoming empathetic with someone on a visceral level. Which is lost when walking becomes shorter-distance and less onerous.
@@williamchamberlain2263 Well, its the 'drift' that is most at issue, but thats true, when you think of it in that way, the two interpretations become that much closer together. I think in a 'democracy' thats kind of an underlying foundation, you 'walk with' somebody, meaning you have no more power than them. That makes you 'equal', but many have a hard time with that thinking it means 'the same'.
9:02 “Why do you call me good?” Maybe Jesus really wanted to know why or he could guess why but wanted his questioner to think in a deeper way about what prompted the question. It was to get people nearby who overheard as well to stop and think. Sometimes Jesus was given a “word of knowledge” about someone such as the woman at the well in John chapter 4. He knew what was in mankind generally but wasn’t trying to read peoples’ minds all the time.
Since a documentary crew wasn't following him around even if he existed we could not know what he said so your point is mute when you quote a mythological character .not a shred of evidence outside the bible .
I do love Emma, shes so nice, i'm 24 japanese girl, but wish. You are brilliant. hopes💝🌸🌹
I find it funny the gospel of Mark is considered less known when I feel we used to reference it way more than Matthew (back when I used to go to church) .
The Bible has undeniable and incredible scientific accuracy like round Earyh and jet streams and mam from soil and much more. It is the word if God.
Loved this.
Thanks for sharing.
20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family[b] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
His own family thought he was delusional
Mark 3:20-21
Yep. You don't hear Christians quoting that Bible story very often, do you? :-) Especially not if you worship Jesus' mother as 'The Holy Mother of God'.
Well, the Holy Mother of God thought Jesus was out of his mind!
Emma I love the niche you are forming for yourself.
oh hai mark
I would encourage anyone watching this to consider what Dr. Tabor is saying, but to also look into other, opposing views to get a fuller understanding. He says several things in this interview which betray a scholarly bias, and makes a few claims there doesn't seem to be much, if any, evidence for. So hear him out, but don't take it as (I can't help myself!) gospel truth ;)
Thank you for taking over for Sciman Dan for Today's video, sorrry this is on an older video since the comments on that video would go to Sciman Dan and not you Emma. Have a good day and keep making Enterprise noises, i wont judge lol
Mark inverted the tragedy by the young man at the testifying to Christ resurrection . 16;8 running away afraid telling no one is because the Roman solider testified to Christ divinity . To more would be anti climatic
Excellent video. Yes, we want to know the true "ending" of Jesus. But it is unnecessary as long as we remember he conquered Death and as we could feel his new and glorious life in the traces he has been leaving on the Catholic Church, his living body, all over the centuries.
Mark is like Army of Darkness! Various endings depending on what version you get. Love it!
'army of darkness' no no no - the Gospel of Mark is the Word of God. God has no darkness in him.
Haven't watched this yet, but I just had to say that James Tabor looks strikingly like King Longshanks from Braveheart.
Great interview!! ❤❤❤
Matthew and Luke "adjust things?" Matthew introduces three stories of delay? Yes. But Mark includes one, and it seems tom be the same story as one Matthew uses. It certainly ends with the same warning to watch.
Probably Mark wrote his Gospel before the destruction of Jerusalem (maybe by the mid 60s) but as the whole disaster was ramping up, and Matthew and Luke wrote after. That would add a background for the sermon as Matthew writes it that Mark did not have. But it does not alter the sermon in any large part. (BTW this sermon had been circulating in oral form and perhaps as one of the logia of the Lord Matthrew recorded before Mark wrote and before Matthew's Gospel reached its final form. That is clear from an examination of the text.) When the parousia would happen is as much an open question before as after. The idea that Jesus (and these are definitely his words and his voice, not Mark's) was telling them to expect the parousia relatively soon is to read back into the text something that is not there in any of the Gospels. Jesus clearly says "no one knows" the hour, so be ready (Mark 13:32). All this certainty by scholars that Jesus meant soon is as far off as those who predicted his return in 1988. "No one knows" means no one knows.
You should interview David Bentley Hart. If you're conversant with Deleuze, Hegel, etc. check out his book on Christian aesthetics, "The Beauty of the Infinite." I don't know how interested you are in pro-Christian arguments. But he's a very sophisticated defender.
for me where it all falls apart is the fact that all the gospels were written decades after the fact, plus: jesus was a member of arameic speaking people, many of whom were illiterate, and the gospels were written by well educated greek speakers.
Oral tradition. It isnt what you think. They didnt just remember the gist and change it at will. They practiced repeating the stories Precisely. Thus all the begats ..(and mistakes in them). And all of jesus followers werent poor or uneducated. Theres pkenty of reason not to believe but by this mechanism you shoulsnt believe the vast majority of history
@@cdreid9999 i personally never saw oral tradition to be accurate. stories get embellished pretty much by definition. and i believe they did change it purposefully.