Before, we had buggy Xorg. Now we have buggy Xorg and buggy Wayland with different set of bugs. I jump between them depending what works better with today's version of KDE
This deserves to be framed and quoted. For me I have had so many more issues with Wayland and say Electron apps than I've had with Xorg. But sometimes upon booting Xorg I still get this weird graphical glitch where half of my monitor is black which only is fixed by restarting plasmashell. They are both horribly buggy and that is something even Wayland evangelists have to admit.
@Finkelfunk Nvidia GPUs on Wayland I will admit still have some issues. For example, on my desktop with a recent Nvidia GPU, it only became usable with KDE Plasma 5.27.6 (it wasn't usable before that) and only became good with Plasma 6.0. I still have a 1 in 8 chance that one of my monitors' image glitches out when I log in but upon turning off the monitor and turning it back on, it fixes the issue. It also isn't common, hence the 1 in 8 chance. Before Plasma 6.0, my panels would also freeze randomly and I would have to kill then reopen the panels to fix the issue. This seems to have been fixed with Plasma 6.0 and I haven't had any issue apart from occasional flickering in Steam since Plasma 6.1. XOrg, on the other hand, is unsuitable for many modern multi monitor setups, especially when the refresh rates and scaling factors are different.
@@Finkelfunk the thing is though that one bug in your example is due to the compositor (Xorg in this case) and the other bugs are, as you've described them, due to apps that haven't been converted to support Wayland. Not saying Wayland doesn't have bugs - it has it's fair share - but in this example those bugs are not *technically* with the Wayland compositor itself. I think Wayland's biggest issue by far is that the stuff that they've designed and has been implemented by both compositor and apps generally works very well, but the stuff that either hasn't been implemented or hasn't got a protocol yet is very, very broken (and probably won't be fixed for another 2-10 years given how slow they are). For me, Wayland is in a state to replace all my desktop needs but I am looking forward to the day where there aren't little (or sometimes big) niggles and things that don't work. I will say just earlier today I had an issue where Firefox crashed my GPU driver (first time ever). The entire desktop locked up for say 30 seconds and then it was back as if nothing had ever happened. I don't think that would have been possible on X11.
I really thought I'd be able to fully switch over to Wayland this year, but then I bought an ultrawide monitor. It works great at native resolution, but I sometimes need to use a regular 16:9 resolution on it and the EDID doesn't have 2560x1440. One example is some games that don't behave well on wider resolutions, another is mirroring with a 16:9 output and getting the same image on both. No problem on Xorg, but is apparently crazy talk in Wayland land.
It doesn't matter if xorg is overall worse, there are still use cases where it is needed and that likely won't change for atleast a decade. People can bitch and moan all they want, people are going to use what works better for them.
@@masterofdizzzasteraccessibility on wayland is a complete disaster currently. Input of non english languages(especially asian languages) can be very buggy in wayland native windows. Those are 2 most broken things i noticed and they have been a complete blocker for me. I just can't use wayland if i can't switch keyboard language reliably. Interesting point is that in xwayland windows it works as expected.
@@masterofdizzzaster If I'm not mistaken, Wayland still doesn't have network transparency ready. You might get to use it under Wayland, but those are still actually done by X. Pure Wayland apps so far don't work, last time I checked.
It's really only useful for artists and accessibility (for now). Both can and will get better with more resources put into Wayland. There's also the Nvidia issue, but that's mostly fixed now.
wayland works well for me as an artist, yeah pressure doesn't work on clip studio trough xwayland, but that didn't work well on xorg anyway. But krita works great, excellent even(using csp keybinds). Audio recording works great, screen recording works great, editing works great. Like I ain't a music producer, or 3D artist, or others..., so no idea if there are any weird shit in there. But to me that doesn't seem like something wayland should affect. But I also am on fedora kde, with all amd setup, which is kinda the sweet spot setup I would say currently. Accessibility is the biggest issue for anyone who needs that to use their pc with wayland.
@@729usbow I mean that's how things work? You don't just crop up and say "I've finished my fission reactor! Now that it's perfect, it's obvious it's the future of energy generation!". You instead come up with a great idea and show people "if I can get X, Y and Z working it will be the future!" and you can convince them that X, Y and Z are solvable problems then they agree. That's the kind of premise most of the modern world is built on - what do you think R&D, small startups and venture capitalism is all about?
I'm very casual linux user, installing distros most of the time and checking how they perform and behave with the apps and games I need. Currently I'm an avid arch user but I've been on Ubuntu, Debian and other less mainstream distros and in all cases I force myself to sue Wayland but end up finding an app that won´t work properly and switching back to X11. Last 2 exemples were Flatseal GUI not working on arch KDE (Nvidia) running Wayland and Zoom Screen Sharing being broken on Wayland. In both cases I have switched to KDE on X11 and worked like a charm.
6:05 screen tearing has actually been fixed for more than 1 year and the fix is enabled by default now, but the people in charge of xorg server (wayland people) refuse to release a new version of xorg server so distros dont get that fix and many other fixes. There are even fixes for multi monitor VRR.
@@occultsupportSounds real. Releasing a new version means more work to validate the new code and deal with new bug reports. They clearly wanna focus on Wayland.
I like how minimal you can keep an x11 wm. hypr and sway literally require whole chunks from KDE just to make qt apps respect dark mode. They feel crufty after having to do all that.
I really like sway for a wayland window manager. Works perfectly fine and doesn't have all the little quirks and issues hyprland has. You gotta like the manual tiling though
I use an autotiling script with my sway setup. I just have one workspace where autotiling is disabled which i use for tabbed windows. And that's it. I haven't changed anything for years.
I would not feel too bad about using xorg. Mate and xorg with Marco is a very cozy development environment. I even got windowmaker to run on 3 4k monitors with scaling. If your setup suits your tastes and you can reach your goals without having an affliction with your system, you are where you need to be.
Yeah I switched off Wayland & tumbleweed & went back to Linux mint which uses x11 still & Ive had a much better Linux experience. I have been tempted to go back to wayland with KDE cause I just really like it but for now im vibing.
We are happy for you, Matt. Use whatever works. There is no reason to rush into using Wayland until it's ready. And it will arrive at a very usable state eventually, like Pipewire has. We live in times of big transformations in Linux.
Toward the beginning you mentioned (maybe I misunderstood) using I3 on xorg, then later (and in your B roll) you mentioned using qtile. So are you using qtile or i3 (or some other wm) I'm xorg currently. Thanks a bunch for your videos.
The reason XOrg is "stable" is because it's on life support and hasn't had any new features since 2012. Five years ago, I would definitely agree that Wayland wasn't ready. Heck, even two years ago, I could agree. Now it's really more of a niche thing. That's not to say Wayland is perfect; it's not. But there are things I need my system to do that XOrg cannot accommodate, especially on my desktop with a triple monitor setup.
He said using Window Managers Wayland isn't working, but didn't mention desktops. I was thinking about going to Hyprland, but seems kind of hard to setup and worried about its stability in the future since it depends on one developer, though he seems talented. More Wayland WMs would offer variety, plus the competition would help make them better. Wayland works fine for my needs, but I use a desktop.
What features? It's a screen server. Wayland should have stop making another X11 years ago, and now they do exactly that, but more annoying and less hackable.
You say there is no window manager you like on wayland but i dont remember you trying river. Did you try it and if you did i am curious what were your issues with it.
@@armynyus9123 True. Unfortunately devs are racing for the wider auditorium influenced by Windows and MacOS "point and click" mentality. Automation is too complex, it means programming which people don't want to learn because "they don't want to waste the time". :(
@@umka7536 Apple put Automator in Mac OS years ago, with which you can do some dope stuff, and on most installs it's been just sitting there collecting dust. The reality is that most people just don't want to bother with these things.
Exactly. Sometimes I get the feeling that wayland fans are Linux newcomers which don't really understand the ecosystem, but have a very, very loud voice supporting wayland.
@@eternal864 Yes, I believe most of them are "Steam Deck poseurs" who believe that just because they own a specific Linux-based games console (with DRM, because let's not forget that Steam is DRM) it somehow makes them a Linux expert. You don't hear PlayStation 4 owners claiming to be *BSD experts or XBox owners claiming to be Windows experts.
@@terrydaktyllus1320 Yeah, I think about this sometimes. Linux users always wished for its wider adaptation on desktop and now it's happening to some extend. But, most new comers are coming from Windows or other proprietary OSes and their standards are quite low! What's more, they don't know that they should keep their mouth shut.
On Wayland OBS keyboard shortcuts will not work unless OBS is the active window. Until that is addressed it's unusable, for me. Even accepting its many other issues.
The last time I tried Wayland was ~3 years ago, and recently I tried again and I was honestly surprised how far it progressed, by that I mostly mean the tools and wms for it, not general stability or bugs-free experience. So in another 2-3 years we might actually see Wayland be 100% usable for majority of people, it wouldn't surprise me tbh.
Personally, I don''t mind your rambly videos at all. They feel like we're just having a normal person-to-person chat. Your ADD caused me to be in full amazement about your OpenSUSE run over the last year or so. I've got it on an old Thinkpad now, probably the third installation in the last 7-8 years, and trying to feel good about it. Trying. I want to love it like I keep hearing other people love it over and over. I think at heart I'm just most comfortable with Debian and its ways. I'll say that there IS something that always fails for me with Wayland, at least every time I've tried it the last couple years. I just wish I could remember what that particular pain point is right now lol. So, yeah, Xorg is my fav too because = solid.
It's not true that Xorg is not being maintained. Yes, most Xorg developers are focusing on Wayland now, but not all. I will never stop using Xorg, and there's many Xorg developers on the same camp.
@@normieeliminator If you are worried about the CIA monitoring your keystrokes, then that is called a "threat". At the point you recognise that a "threat" exists, then you do a "threat analysis" to determine how big that threat is and whether or not you need to deal with it. You then decide how someone might put a key logger on your system, you identify "attack vectors". There is more than one "attack vector" for key logging of which Xorg could potentially be one - but so could someone installing a trojan program on your system or even inserting a USB-based logger that you don't realise is there. In other words, you are looking at the issue of key logging (or any security threat) far too simplistically - probably because you're working off of "what a bloke in the pub told me" (commonly known today as a "meme") rather than actually understanding how you identify and deal with security threats anyway.
Use whatever makes you happy. There’s something you should know though. Everything crashing from time to time isn’t actually normal… When you said that software you use to fix screen tearing crashes from time to time then said “what doesn’t”, the answer is most things don’t. I’ve run Kwin on Wayland for many months, never crashed. Crashes of any kind from any software are an exceptionally rare thing tbh. I guess what I’m suggesting is something else is going wrong. Hardware or software, who knows, but things don’t just crash from time to time.
@@Tinfoiltomcat I agree, at least for now. If Wayland works for you, that's great. If you need to stay on XOrg for reasons like accessibility, network transpency, or because your Nvidia GPU is really old, then that fine (although in the final case, if you're on a desktop, you should really try to save up for a new GPU, which will probably smoke your current GPU and better support newer standards). But as somebody who has had more problems recently with XOrg than Wayland even on systems with Nvidia dGPUs, I can safely say I can't go back to XOrg for my use cases.
@@cameronbosch1213 free and open source software except when you need proprietary drivers and proprietary firmware for muh soyland future... yeah, linux desktop everyone, it never happened lol
Urr, this depends heavily on the usage case I think. If you use everything out of the box without tinkering too much you probably will have few to no issues, but if you throw a lot at the wall, like yeah stuff might crash. This happens on Windows too, it's not a big deal. He strikes me as such an user.
My experiences with Xorg are that it's crappy NVIDIA proprietary drivers that are the main cause of Xorg instabilities. Get rid of their rubbish and overpriced GPUs (and the crappy AAA "games as a service, gamers as whales" games that need them) and it's rock solid with AMD and Intel GPUs - especially with a distro like Gentoo where you compile any new versions of Xorg directly against the kernel drivers on your system anyway.
My biggest gripe with Wayland is that is not well suited for esports. High refresh rendering (Well above vsync) combined with the "no-tearing-policy" simply is, for obvious reasons, a bad mix.
Xorg has problems. Wayland has WAY more problems. I can't stand Wayland. No global shortcuts. Compositor crashes closes all apps. Various apps glitching and crashing. Worse game performance. And Sunshine streaming freezes Wayland. 😅 But the biggest one: Wayland uses 6GB VRAM at idle. Xorg uses 0.25 GB. It's a known issue. Will use Xorg for 1-2 more years or however long it takes to fix the VRAM issue.
@@MyAmazingUsername Are you using GNOME on Wayland. I've never had Plasma use more than 4 GB at idle with nothing open, even on Wayland. Heck, sometimes, it's at 3 GB for a full featured DE.
I've been using Wayland lately, until I swapped to Arch, stuck with it some more with KDE but decided that was too bloated and slow for this laptop, then took the big effort to swap to XFCE and remove everything from KDE. Took a lot of work but now I'm very happy with my desktop environment with my preferred rice... but back to xorg is the side effect. Well at least I know how things work in xorg more than I did with Wayland. I still want to advance to that, hopefully the XFCE project can get to that point soon.
They could at least get it to where the cursor size stays constant in the SAME application. Was getting crashes daily on fedora 40 and plasma. Now at least in 41 beta + plasma the crashes seem to gone (3 days no crashes so that's something at least).
I also have a lot of weird screen tearing issues on xorg. Sometimes my games tear all the time, other times - there is no tearing at all. Can you point me to the solution that worked for you? If this matters I am on Mint 22, cinnamon.
I did (twenty different things) and had to do without (twenty more things) had (twenty more things) problems and them my experience was flawless. Thanks for reminding me why I switched from Linux to macOS.
@@Martin.Krischik You literally got screwed switching. Watch as you're probably going to get stuck in Apple's walled garden. I could never go back to modern Windows or modern macOS given what's going on.
@@user-dc9zo7ek5j That wasn't my experience. Mine was more like every time I wanted to use the scanner SANE needed to be configure again as the configuration didn't survive any kernel update.
@@cameronbosch1213 I switched 20 years ago and after that I had a computer which actually worked and didn't need tinkering after every kernel update. It's only now with with Apple silicon I wonder if I need to switch back because of walled garden. But even if: I had a UNIX™ system which worked flawless for 20 years. I don't feel screwed at all.
10:40 > in fact the vast majority of people who use Linux right now are using Wayland whether they know it or not But I think it's the other way around, vast majority of people are still using X11/Xserver whether they know it or not. Xwayland, which I assume should be present on any wayland setup, runs X11/Xserver in the background.
I'm currently daily driving qtile on wayland, works (almost) perfectly fine for me. The only issue is I don't like how a couple of things are done in qtile bar and on stupid wayland it's the only choice. I don't use OBS though. BTW qtile is inspired by xmonad so it also has its roots in almighty dwm.
When I switched from sway to I3, purely the only reason was for lower latency in video games and digital vibrance adjustment... There's a launch argument for wlroots to Enable Allow Screen Tearing and imperfect frames on sway... Once an easy digital vibrant adjustment is added, either through launch argument Or a CLI or GUI application, I won't be switching to walyand yet...
Why did you ever leave? Stay with what works, until it doesn't. :-D My best advice for a stable system, if that's what you want. That way of thinking has served me well since 2004. :-D
Wayland is really only good on desktop environments right now, specifically (and mainly) KDE, and also Gnome, so it's totally understandable if you prefer Xorg for window managers right now as its ecosystem is way more mature for sure. I'd reckon that will change fairly quickly within the next year or two however once wayland matures and more DE/WMs start adopting wayland.
wine is still buggy no matter the composer, I don't really care if something's a bit laggy or has some quirks, but some stuff just doesnt work at all thru xwayland. Maybe in a year or two things would be better, I wish they were better, but they arent
As a non-content creator Hyprland has been my stable daily driver the last year and change. I do a lot of my school and work from it, including data recovery. Gaming has also been fine for me as well.
Wayland is over-hyped. Try wine gaming there and see how well that goes. A lot of cool window managers don't have an equivalent alternative. A lot of important niche software like reaper or aseprite won't have a wayland version for the foreseeable future and I think there were problems with xwayland. It's just a more painless experience to stick to X. Wait a few years and come back to check on things.
@oredaze 5 years ago, I agreed with you. Now, unfortunately, with IBM pulling all maintenance support of XOrg after RHEL 9 hits EoL, you're best bet is to either try ot help your favorite WM across the Wayland finish line or look for something similar that does support Wayland (like Sway if you're using i3 or Wayfire if you used Openbox or something with Compiz). I couldn't find any issues with XWayland even on Nvidia recently. Could you explain what problems Reaper had under XWayland, because I don't use it and I haven't had any issues with any XWayland usage. In fact, recently, I've had more problems when using XOrg.
@@raidev_ I just ran through all the non-steam games I have. The following run fine on Xorg, but not wayland: age of empires definitive edition arcanum alien vs predator blade of darkness blasphemous blood fresh supply starcraft commandos dead cells diablo enter the gungeon gothic 1 & 2 heroes 3 icewind dale 2 into the breach loop hero noita oddworld 1 & 2 pillars of eternity planescape torment stoneshard (runs but the window is semi transparent) c&c tiberian sun warcraft 3 Yes, a lot of them are old and new games tend to run on wayland like dark souls 1,2,3, but the list here is 80% of my favorite games...
2:56 Krusader! My fav filemanger since KDE3. 6:50 Why do you say “XOrg is a dying technology and it’s not being maintained anymore”? Last release was in April 2024 and they just had their XOrg DevCon in Montreal, Canada. 12:31 Exactly that happened to Funtoo Linux. Daniel Robbins decided to retire the project in 2024.
Fedora, KDE, Wayland - stuff works totally fine. Granted, I don’t do streaming or content creation, mostly gaming and coding and all that stuff works just fine.
As somebody who's diving into Linux details for some years now, I wonder why an application has to be XOrg / Wayland compatible in any way. I mean a Windows 95 application still works to this day on Win 11 e.g.. A desktop application should not care about who's rendering it to the screen, right? What's going on here? I would expect the gpu driver or maybe the GUI toolkit to handle and manage differences between Xorg and Wayland. What needs to be changed on a list view or button or whatever gadget to make it work on a Wayland desktop? If somebody can explain?
I'm not 100% sure, since I didn't got to code in that area, but I think it's because all this rendering + non-rendering is NOT done through a well-known and well-established interface. Apps actually directly have X as a dependency and call directly X code. When I said rendering, X and Wayland aren't just renderers they also deal with input. When you type something on your keyboard, if I'm not mistaken, X is the first one to receive it and pass it along to the apps. And here's one inherent flaw with X that is solved by Wayland - X is effectively a keylogger provider in the sense that any app using X can "listen" to everyhing you type. Windows 95 apps still working I think are dealt with in the same way as XWayland, though easier. Actually in the same way wine works for Linux. The win32 API is simply there to take care of the Windows 95 apps, even if Windows 11 uses something else.
@@Winnetou17 Ok, yes.. I think I can see some parallels here now. So, then just have the XWayland thing and be fine? Not sure where the drawback is, when running XWayland (which seems to be a X server running on Wayland). It sounds like the Microsoft approach, keep the API around, be compatible to your own past, add the new desktop API in the mix and be fine? o) I have to say, I'm kind of dissapointed by the Linux "compatibility" to itself by now. I ran Debian11 for some time, then played around with Debian12 and noticed several applications or packages would not run anymore, missing dependencies and what not. Not a fun experience. If things break, just because some minor package is gone or is only available in a specific version, I think that is a big issue with the regular package management on Linux. The package management system should be able to handle old and new versions of a package at the same time, Windows can do it and so you don't need "rolling" vs. "stable" releases, it's all in one, it just depends on what version of library / application you request, the stable old one or the shiny new one with all the bugs in there. o) Well, anyhow, I think I learned some new bits, I also read some articles by now. Thank you! o)
@@ytbone9430 Yeah, I'm a bit disappointed too that there's no (extra) relaeses with static libraries. That is, to have all dependencies built in. The executable will be bigger (both on disk and on RAM), but guess what - no dependency issues. You can run a 30 year old executable with no issues on the latest kernel. I get the appeal of dynamic libraries, but to this day "dependency hell" is a thing, so it's clearly not bullet proof. As old versions stop getting supported, having them released with static libraries would be awesome. It's very likely that the compatibility with new libraries might break anyway so it's not like you're missing on anything. This way we won't need things like AppImages which currently are the closest thing of having the ability to run older versions.
This is from someone who just looked at superficially (I wanted to build a Wayland proxy). The APIs are different. It is like web APIs, but insted of using network calls, they use shared pipes to communicate. As you can image, the remote API changed to something very different, so the apps need to understand a new protocol to communicate.
@@Winnetou17 Yes, AppImages for the Win! o) I like the concept, it makes Linux work more like Windows. I'm used to run collected and older applications or games from external HDD, USB or from a network location. This is possible with AppImages only (at least it's very easy). They also allow different versions of a program and "portable" mode to carry settings along, they also bring (most) dependencies, as you mentioned. I think it's the way to go. The Flatpak thing already seems to restricted for my taste, it handles the dependencies, but I need to install huge runtimes and still cannot run two versions or run things from central network and share applications and settings between multiple systems. Thank you for taking the time! o)
For me ssh -X just works on xorg. Have no reason to move as lxqt on debian 12 is on all rigs. Sure there's advance reasons for Wayland for the "average joe" xorg works plenty fine.
ubuntu 24.04 uses wayland default on anything but nvidia, 24.10 started using wayland in nvidia. mint barely have wayland support fedora will remove x11 in fedora 41, you will need to install manually
Xorg is only useful as a fallback method due to its stability, backwards compatibility, or if Wayland just stops working out of the blue. Despite Xorg's useful capability and it just works, it's very clunky and slow, touch screen is very inaccurate. Wayland will always have certain bugs. But the smoothness in performance, better touch screen precision, and minimalism makes it more convenient for gaming and helps me get my work done much faster.
Kubuntu 24.10 is great... but I use left-handed mouse configurations and that are grayed out in Wayland. Such a simple adaption and Wayland drops the ball big time! Back to xorg, because Wayland sucks for me with that one simple change. I searched for a solution and I am not finding it. Xorg works for me. Wayland doesn't accommodate my needs.
I will always stay with Xorg, until it gives me any issues. Been using Linux since 2003 and had zero issues. I even use Nvidia in all my machines with no issue there either. But I always had used the proprietary drivers.
Been using Sway for years now and never had a desire to switch to anything else. I don't know why people forget about Sway and keep talking about Hyprland. I'll try Hyprland when it's more mature and a bit stable. The drama with the dev also turned me off trying it.
I will keep using Wayland because I find it, in general, less buggy than Xorg. But those are valid points. I tried using Xorg and it didn't really improve anything in my experience. I am used to Wayland. I like Hyprland. It has its problems, but I think it is good enough.
As usual, Wayland is very slowly getting better, but as long as it doesn't support the same features as X11, there will still be reasons to come back to the "legacy" Xorg
Since the Plasma 6 release, I have been using Wayland exclusively on my Desktop. But my laptop will be stuck to X11 for the foreseeable future. This due to the HS611 drawing tablet I use not working properly on Wayland, from the community made kludge not having been ported. My other Wacom Pro tablet not having an easy way to disable the touchpad functionality without xinput, which ruins strokes if left enabled. And the OnBoard on screen keyboard displaying with a window border and crashing, though this might have been fixed since. Those being less of an issue at my desktop, where my Wacom Intuos 3 tablet works fine thanks to lacking touchpad functionality. And when not at campus, I can use a normal keyboard next to my tablet whereas at uni I don't have the space on most tables.
I think you being a streamer and using tools like OBS really makes all pitfalls of Wayland stand out. Most users who watch videos and write text on their computer really should not notice any issues with Wayland.
I run Mint, so I generally stick with Cinnamon... and as luck would have it... it doesn't run on Wayland yet :-) I don't dislike Wayland... but I'm like you... I don't enjoy the lack of choice in WM's. Time will fix that, but until then... and until I find a distro I like better, I'm sticking with Mint....and Xorg. :-)
You're telling people a different thing everyday, are you? I wonder what's actually going on if you are never settling or just doing it for the sake of content without having an actual solidified opinion.
@@lowzyyy For me it's the opposite, all paths lead to Arch BTW, I have one way my stuff needs to be configured and this distro can provide it x) It's just so strange if you just look through his videos from the overview, everytime he's "going back" to XYZ and if you trace it you got a circle x) The linux youtubers I see just fixate on one or two distros at a time and that's it
@@GraniteFaun thats because he is bored. To him linux is playground. To me linux is just a system for my development. I switched from w11 because of all their bs and now on Debian. So far i dont have iresistant urge to change to other distros because my primary time is used on other things instead of being bored and looking at the screen like him
Wayland on Arch-gnome-nvidia has been frustrating for me due to UI FPS stuttering. I've tried some iffy triple buffering patch from AUR but it did little to no difference. I heard Plasma has no issues tho, never tried.
Every time I log in Plasma X11 session and see the ping of window movement, how slow every window is moving compared to my coursor, I want to forget about Xorg existence. Wayland is very snappy and fast, on Wayland windows don't run for the coursor, they're moved by the coursor as they should be
No one should apologize for using software that works better for them. It's a travesty how poorly the transition to Wayland has gone, but then, Python 2 -> 3 was pretty awful too. Maybe it's just the way this sort of thing goes. Hopefully everyone can look back on this time 10 years from now, happily using our amazing and varied Wayland environments barely remembering what all the fuss was about, but...we'll see.
The biggest problem with xorg is configuration which is worsened by overenginereed and overcomplicated design. Biggest problems with wayland are adoption and fracturing. Wayland does things that much more sanely and that much less hacky so that it is easier to debug issues when they arise. As for a choice as backend for DEs - don't care about either. When it comes down to using DE, if you have to mess with the internals means that things have already gone terribly wrong and its gonna be a pain.
For gamers with radeon cards, using Xorg is basically impossible as features like allowing different refresh rates on monitors, VRR, Tearing support and fractional scaling only really work well (or work at all) in wayland. You also leave performance on the table by using Xorg when you play games through proton. It's a shame because my favourite desktop, Mate, still doesn't support wayland and i'm not a big KDE fan, like at all, i've only had weird bugs with plasma. I went back to windows for the time being until wayland is fully usable in mate because i would otherwise have to use plasma and i don't like it. At least with windows 10 i have access to the official GOG launcher (i don't like to rely on third party apps when i'm gonna pay using a credit card)
Maybe hyperland is buggy. I had 0 problems with Sway. I cannot say the same about GNOME and Plasma. I am shocked that people use those two on daily basis. Theh are unusable and some bags have not been fxed for years.
What is the benefit of using discord in an app instead of in a browser ? Genuine question. I use MS Teams for my work and since I don't trust it, I always run it in a browser tab. So far I had no issues, I don't think I'm missing anything from not having a desktop app. Screen sharing works with no issues.
my big issue with wayland is one : The pure lack of care the protocols heads care about the users experience, instead forcing their politics into it, such as "for security" or such... Global short cuts is a great example of a protocol that the 99% want, but the 1% dislike. Basic functionality missing. Makes linux look like a downgrade rather than a upgrade, or same as windows / macOS. Constant protocol stalling, protocols get stalled for years, hell even decades before finally added. This is a massive issue as how the hell is this supposed to be the "future display server" if it can't even add basic things developers, and people want. Overall wayland has a lot of things that need to be addressed. As while its now finally usable, its not a great experience. Only reason I use it is because of the smoothness of gaming. if x11 was the same I wouldn't care about wayland. But here we are. Hopefully wayland improves, preferably sooner rather than later. Or a fork of wayland that fixes the major issues takes off. Who knows. Only the future will tell.
Wayland is like the cool but flawed protagonist, they need some character development and a story behind their eyes. Xorg is like a jaded old mentor/antagonist, their ideals and morals may not be great but it's attitude and somewhat carelessness is what got it through it's rough life of good enough hacks and seeing the rise and fall of massive machines to devices that you can fit in your pocket. Just because the mentor is broken, flawed, and shabby in some places, doesn't mean that there isn't something to learn.
The constant distro hopping is why in using basic Mint, and am debating Ubuntu MATE. They work, work well, can be customized if i want, and i can just get on with development.
Since the triple buffering it is now acceptable. Now on Kubuntu 24.10 Yip had to make some adjustments when KRDC did not work and load wayland rpd think it was freerdp and it behaves a bit different... but so far not having serious issues.
Check out my merch! shop.thelinuxcast.org
Linux Mint is not stupid! That's why they will switch to Wayland in 2026. Wayland is not ready yet!
"Xorg returns?"
Xorg never left.
Before, we had buggy Xorg. Now we have buggy Xorg and buggy Wayland with different set of bugs. I jump between them depending what works better with today's version of KDE
This deserves to be framed and quoted.
For me I have had so many more issues with Wayland and say Electron apps than I've had with Xorg. But sometimes upon booting Xorg I still get this weird graphical glitch where half of my monitor is black which only is fixed by restarting plasmashell.
They are both horribly buggy and that is something even Wayland evangelists have to admit.
@Finkelfunk Nvidia GPUs on Wayland I will admit still have some issues. For example, on my desktop with a recent Nvidia GPU, it only became usable with KDE Plasma 5.27.6 (it wasn't usable before that) and only became good with Plasma 6.0. I still have a 1 in 8 chance that one of my monitors' image glitches out when I log in but upon turning off the monitor and turning it back on, it fixes the issue. It also isn't common, hence the 1 in 8 chance.
Before Plasma 6.0, my panels would also freeze randomly and I would have to kill then reopen the panels to fix the issue. This seems to have been fixed with Plasma 6.0 and I haven't had any issue apart from occasional flickering in Steam since Plasma 6.1.
XOrg, on the other hand, is unsuitable for many modern multi monitor setups, especially when the refresh rates and scaling factors are different.
Not to mention that as people work on wayland they also break xorg in various ways.
@@Finkelfunk the thing is though that one bug in your example is due to the compositor (Xorg in this case) and the other bugs are, as you've described them, due to apps that haven't been converted to support Wayland. Not saying Wayland doesn't have bugs - it has it's fair share - but in this example those bugs are not *technically* with the Wayland compositor itself. I think Wayland's biggest issue by far is that the stuff that they've designed and has been implemented by both compositor and apps generally works very well, but the stuff that either hasn't been implemented or hasn't got a protocol yet is very, very broken (and probably won't be fixed for another 2-10 years given how slow they are). For me, Wayland is in a state to replace all my desktop needs but I am looking forward to the day where there aren't little (or sometimes big) niggles and things that don't work.
I will say just earlier today I had an issue where Firefox crashed my GPU driver (first time ever). The entire desktop locked up for say 30 seconds and then it was back as if nothing had ever happened. I don't think that would have been possible on X11.
wayland is garbage
"resistance is futile"- the Xorg
"so I'm back in qtile" - DT
“Your desktop will adapt to service us”
Man, it is Greatiest words from posix trek)
All your hardware and software will added to our extensions
I beat you in ADHD. I am still distro hopping without doing any work
i switched to windows to end this nightmare
@@aminvand Once you take the Red pill it over imao
@@Little-bird-told-me just install Windows and run all distros with WSL2
@@aminvanddon't worry, Linux will call you back in your dreams, and one day you won't be able to resist
@@n1vz3r nope. It's been 2 years i am working on windows. WSL is the tool for me.
To be honest, I don't care about fancy animations or things like that, so I just use whatever is more stable on my machines
I really thought I'd be able to fully switch over to Wayland this year, but then I bought an ultrawide monitor. It works great at native resolution, but I sometimes need to use a regular 16:9 resolution on it and the EDID doesn't have 2560x1440. One example is some games that don't behave well on wider resolutions, another is mirroring with a 16:9 output and getting the same image on both. No problem on Xorg, but is apparently crazy talk in Wayland land.
It doesn't matter if xorg is overall worse, there are still use cases where it is needed and that likely won't change for atleast a decade. People can bitch and moan all they want, people are going to use what works better for them.
@@harpskid what are some use cases?
this, Xorg will stay for a long time
@@masterofdizzzasteraccessibility on wayland is a complete disaster currently. Input of non english languages(especially asian languages) can be very buggy in wayland native windows. Those are 2 most broken things i noticed and they have been a complete blocker for me. I just can't use wayland if i can't switch keyboard language reliably. Interesting point is that in xwayland windows it works as expected.
@@masterofdizzzaster If I'm not mistaken, Wayland still doesn't have network transparency ready. You might get to use it under Wayland, but those are still actually done by X. Pure Wayland apps so far don't work, last time I checked.
Debian + dwm with xorg my ideal setup and i have never had an issue regarding to xorg
Xorg is awesome for artists!! Wayland isn't ready just yet
It's really only useful for artists and accessibility (for now). Both can and will get better with more resources put into Wayland.
There's also the Nvidia issue, but that's mostly fixed now.
@@cameronbosch1213 not fixed yet, not ready yet, not mature enough Yet, but it is the future, the future...
wayland works well for me as an artist, yeah pressure doesn't work on clip studio trough xwayland, but that didn't work well on xorg anyway. But krita works great, excellent even(using csp keybinds). Audio recording works great, screen recording works great, editing works great. Like I ain't a music producer, or 3D artist, or others..., so no idea if there are any weird shit in there. But to me that doesn't seem like something wayland should affect. But I also am on fedora kde, with all amd setup, which is kinda the sweet spot setup I would say currently. Accessibility is the biggest issue for anyone who needs that to use their pc with wayland.
Agreed there though KDE has made improvements it's still not quite there yet. Xorg is still better if you use a Wacom or Huion.
@@729usbow I mean that's how things work? You don't just crop up and say "I've finished my fission reactor! Now that it's perfect, it's obvious it's the future of energy generation!". You instead come up with a great idea and show people "if I can get X, Y and Z working it will be the future!" and you can convince them that X, Y and Z are solvable problems then they agree. That's the kind of premise most of the modern world is built on - what do you think R&D, small startups and venture capitalism is all about?
I'm very casual linux user, installing distros most of the time and checking how they perform and behave with the apps and games I need. Currently I'm an avid arch user but I've been on Ubuntu, Debian and other less mainstream distros and in all cases I force myself to sue Wayland but end up finding an app that won´t work properly and switching back to X11. Last 2 exemples were Flatseal GUI not working on arch KDE (Nvidia) running Wayland and Zoom Screen Sharing being broken on Wayland. In both cases I have switched to KDE on X11 and worked like a charm.
6:05 screen tearing has actually been fixed for more than 1 year and the fix is enabled by default now, but the people in charge of xorg server (wayland people) refuse to release a new version of xorg server so distros dont get that fix and many other fixes. There are even fixes for multi monitor VRR.
is this a conspiracy theory or fr? cuz I'm on xorg rn and would love this
@@occultsupportSounds real. Releasing a new version means more work to validate the new code and deal with new bug reports. They clearly wanna focus on Wayland.
New version is not required, distributions can patch or release latest code. AUR lists xorg-server 21.1.99.1.r1061
What is this magic config that 'fixes' multi monitor VRR? It's not asyncflipsecondaries, so what is it?
I returned to Xorg because gaming, it was worse on Wayland. No nvidia, only amdgpu. Agree with your observations.
I don't know what kind of games you play, but my fps is higher in Wayland.
I like how minimal you can keep an x11 wm. hypr and sway literally require whole chunks from KDE just to make qt apps respect dark mode. They feel crufty after having to do all that.
Watching on KDE Neon with X11 now.
I really like sway for a wayland window manager. Works perfectly fine and doesn't have all the little quirks and issues hyprland has. You gotta like the manual tiling though
I use an autotiling script with my sway setup. I just have one workspace where autotiling is disabled which i use for tabbed windows. And that's it. I haven't changed anything for years.
I would not feel too bad about using xorg. Mate and xorg with Marco is a very cozy development environment. I even got windowmaker to run on 3 4k monitors with scaling. If your setup suits your tastes and you can reach your goals without having an affliction with your system, you are where you need to be.
Yeah I switched off Wayland & tumbleweed & went back to Linux mint which uses x11 still & Ive had a much better Linux experience. I have been tempted to go back to wayland with KDE cause I just really like it but for now im vibing.
Doing Xenocara 1440p 144hz and 1080p 60hz monitors. Have not had a single issue, everything works
I'm assuming you are using one of the BSDs. I didn't think one could run Xenocara on Linux, can one?
@@donaldmickunas8552 yeah, OpenBSD. I recall there being a Linux distro that ships with Xenocara, but I don’t remember the name
@@donaldmickunas8552 found it. Hyperbola. But funny enough they’re working on replacing the current distro with an OpenBSD fork
@@donaldmickunas8552 Yep! OpenBSD. I recall Hyperbola uses Xenocara. Funny enough, they're working on an OpenBSD fork to ditch Linux
@@classicrockonly never understood why we didn't just adopt xenocara on Linux to replace xorg. Seems like a far more sane solution.
Xorg still alive until Wayland get better.
We are happy for you, Matt. Use whatever works. There is no reason to rush into using Wayland until it's ready. And it will arrive at a very usable state eventually, like Pipewire has. We live in times of big transformations in Linux.
Toward the beginning you mentioned (maybe I misunderstood) using I3 on xorg, then later (and in your B roll) you mentioned using qtile. So are you using qtile or i3 (or some other wm) I'm xorg currently.
Thanks a bunch for your videos.
I'm in qtile on xorg right now, but I've been switching back and forth.
@@TheLinuxCast Thanks for the reply
Love your rambles and rants. Keep it up!
The reason XOrg is "stable" is because it's on life support and hasn't had any new features since 2012. Five years ago, I would definitely agree that Wayland wasn't ready. Heck, even two years ago, I could agree. Now it's really more of a niche thing.
That's not to say Wayland is perfect; it's not. But there are things I need my system to do that XOrg cannot accommodate, especially on my desktop with a triple monitor setup.
I just can't go back to wayland anymore, xorg just feels slower and different. I've experienced literally no issues using wayland.
@@akshat8586 you may want to rephrase your first line
He said using Window Managers Wayland isn't working, but didn't mention desktops. I was thinking about going to Hyprland, but seems kind of hard to setup and worried about its stability in the future since it depends on one developer, though he seems talented. More Wayland WMs would offer variety, plus the competition would help make them better. Wayland works fine for my needs, but I use a desktop.
For me it's kinda annoying to use Xwayland. I guess i will wait till native wayland support is more wide
What features? It's a screen server. Wayland should have stop making another X11 years ago, and now they do exactly that, but more annoying and less hackable.
You say there is no window manager you like on wayland but i dont remember you trying river. Did you try it and if you did i am curious what were your issues with it.
Also to answer your rethorical question at 9:05 : xmonad
problem is that the young guns dont' even know what they miss, never having been on xorg with its automation possibilities.
@@armynyus9123 True. Unfortunately devs are racing for the wider auditorium influenced by Windows and MacOS "point and click" mentality. Automation is too complex, it means programming which people don't want to learn because "they don't want to waste the time". :(
@@umka7536 Apple put Automator in Mac OS years ago, with which you can do some dope stuff, and on most installs it's been just sitting there collecting dust. The reality is that most people just don't want to bother with these things.
Exactly. Sometimes I get the feeling that wayland fans are Linux newcomers which don't really understand the ecosystem, but have a very, very loud voice supporting wayland.
@@eternal864 Yes, I believe most of them are "Steam Deck poseurs" who believe that just because they own a specific Linux-based games console (with DRM, because let's not forget that Steam is DRM) it somehow makes them a Linux expert. You don't hear PlayStation 4 owners claiming to be *BSD experts or XBox owners claiming to be Windows experts.
@@terrydaktyllus1320 Yeah, I think about this sometimes. Linux users always wished for its wider adaptation on desktop and now it's happening to some extend. But, most new comers are coming from Windows or other proprietary OSes and their standards are quite low! What's more, they don't know that they should keep their mouth shut.
im waiting until xwayland can run my entire DWM setup, and that's when I'll switch
On Wayland OBS keyboard shortcuts will not work unless OBS is the active window. Until that is addressed it's unusable, for me. Even accepting its many other issues.
I think both kde and hyrland have workarounds for this, but I could be wrong.
@TheLinuxCast They do. On Plasma I am 100% sure there are global hotkeys workarounds.
@@cameronbosch1213on Hyprland im 100% sure you can do it easily by just adding a line of text in the config file
@@cameronbosch1213 am 100% sure it’s not something someone 3 months into Linux can make work.
The last time I tried Wayland was ~3 years ago, and recently I tried again and I was honestly surprised how far it progressed, by that I mostly mean the tools and wms for it, not general stability or bugs-free experience. So in another 2-3 years we might actually see Wayland be 100% usable for majority of people, it wouldn't surprise me tbh.
Personally, I don''t mind your rambly videos at all. They feel like we're just having a normal person-to-person chat.
Your ADD caused me to be in full amazement about your OpenSUSE run over the last year or so. I've got it on an old Thinkpad now, probably the third installation in the last 7-8 years, and trying to feel good about it. Trying. I want to love it like I keep hearing other people love it over and over. I think at heart I'm just most comfortable with Debian and its ways.
I'll say that there IS something that always fails for me with Wayland, at least every time I've tried it the last couple years. I just wish I could remember what that particular pain point is right now lol. So, yeah, Xorg is my fav too because = solid.
Welcome back!
It's not true that Xorg is not being maintained.
Yes, most Xorg developers are focusing on Wayland now, but not all.
I will never stop using Xorg, and there's many Xorg developers on the same camp.
I happen to be one of those maintaining Xorg and not wasting a single second with Wayland.
Is it true that CIA can see and log my keystrokes if I use Xorg?
@@normieeliminator If you are worried about the CIA monitoring your keystrokes, then that is called a "threat".
At the point you recognise that a "threat" exists, then you do a "threat analysis" to determine how big that threat is and whether or not you need to deal with it.
You then decide how someone might put a key logger on your system, you identify "attack vectors". There is more than one "attack vector" for key logging of which Xorg could potentially be one - but so could someone installing a trojan program on your system or even inserting a USB-based logger that you don't realise is there.
In other words, you are looking at the issue of key logging (or any security threat) far too simplistically - probably because you're working off of "what a bloke in the pub told me" (commonly known today as a "meme") rather than actually understanding how you identify and deal with security threats anyway.
@@terrydaktyllus1320 Xorg allow **any** installed program to log keystrokes.
Xorg is the attack vector for bad actors.
Thanks for posting 😊
2:50 what problems did you have with krusader?
I've been using it on plasma for a long time now and had no issues with it.
Welcome back)
Use whatever makes you happy. There’s something you should know though. Everything crashing from time to time isn’t actually normal…
When you said that software you use to fix screen tearing crashes from time to time then said “what doesn’t”, the answer is most things don’t. I’ve run Kwin on Wayland for many months, never crashed. Crashes of any kind from any software are an exceptionally rare thing tbh.
I guess what I’m suggesting is something else is going wrong. Hardware or software, who knows, but things don’t just crash from time to time.
This was my thoughts exactly.
@@Tinfoiltomcat I agree, at least for now. If Wayland works for you, that's great. If you need to stay on XOrg for reasons like accessibility, network transpency, or because your Nvidia GPU is really old, then that fine (although in the final case, if you're on a desktop, you should really try to save up for a new GPU, which will probably smoke your current GPU and better support newer standards).
But as somebody who has had more problems recently with XOrg than Wayland even on systems with Nvidia dGPUs, I can safely say I can't go back to XOrg for my use cases.
@@cameronbosch1213 free and open source software except when you need proprietary drivers and proprietary firmware for muh soyland future... yeah, linux desktop everyone, it never happened lol
Urr, this depends heavily on the usage case I think. If you use everything out of the box without tinkering too much you probably will have few to no issues, but if you throw a lot at the wall, like yeah stuff might crash. This happens on Windows too, it's not a big deal. He strikes me as such an user.
My experiences with Xorg are that it's crappy NVIDIA proprietary drivers that are the main cause of Xorg instabilities. Get rid of their rubbish and overpriced GPUs (and the crappy AAA "games as a service, gamers as whales" games that need them) and it's rock solid with AMD and Intel GPUs - especially with a distro like Gentoo where you compile any new versions of Xorg directly against the kernel drivers on your system anyway.
Xorg for life 💪
@@Ralphunreal eh.. maybe for now not for life
Then try maintaining it.
discontinue
@@cameronbosch1213 Or support the people who are doing the work.
X11 is being maintained right now, you know.
I’m running sway the only thing i miss from Xorg is picom for the fancy workspace transition effects and other picom features
My biggest gripe with Wayland is that is not well suited for esports. High refresh rendering (Well above vsync) combined with the "no-tearing-policy" simply is, for obvious reasons, a bad mix.
Wayland (the protocol) has tearing support. The problem is desktops like GNOME not willing to implement it.
welcome back
i had problems with wayland and flatpak integration on Debian 12 running KDE for some reason just Xorg worxs
Xorg has problems. Wayland has WAY more problems.
I can't stand Wayland. No global shortcuts. Compositor crashes closes all apps. Various apps glitching and crashing. Worse game performance. And Sunshine streaming freezes Wayland. 😅
But the biggest one: Wayland uses 6GB VRAM at idle. Xorg uses 0.25 GB. It's a known issue.
Will use Xorg for 1-2 more years or however long it takes to fix the VRAM issue.
@@MyAmazingUsername Are you using GNOME on Wayland. I've never had Plasma use more than 4 GB at idle with nothing open, even on Wayland. Heck, sometimes, it's at 3 GB for a full featured DE.
@@cameronbosch1213 It's on KDE Kwin but I don't know whose fault it is. Tracked at NVIDIA/egl-wayland/issues/126.
> I've never had Plasma use more than 4 GB at idle with nothing open
@@cameronbosch1213 :)) I had to laugh, sorry!
I've been using Wayland lately, until I swapped to Arch, stuck with it some more with KDE but decided that was too bloated and slow for this laptop, then took the big effort to swap to XFCE and remove everything from KDE. Took a lot of work but now I'm very happy with my desktop environment with my preferred rice... but back to xorg is the side effect. Well at least I know how things work in xorg more than I did with Wayland. I still want to advance to that, hopefully the XFCE project can get to that point soon.
Xorg will rise again!
Ya, too bad they just updated a bit and came out with X12.
They could at least get it to where the cursor size stays constant in the SAME application. Was getting crashes daily on fedora 40 and plasma. Now at least in 41 beta + plasma the crashes seem to gone (3 days no crashes so that's something at least).
Wait until Brodie finds out...
He won't be surprised.
Your video is not pointless. 😎
@4:20 Cue Mattroll 😂
I also have a lot of weird screen tearing issues on xorg. Sometimes my games tear all the time, other times - there is no tearing at all. Can you point me to the solution that worked for you? If this matters I am on Mint 22, cinnamon.
some people want screen tearing in their games, but if you don't like it use vertical sync, that's what it's for
Have you tried another DE? Cinnamon looks good but it's not always the best choice.
I did (twenty different things) and had to do without (twenty more things) had (twenty more things) problems and them my experience was flawless.
Thanks for reminding me why I switched from Linux to macOS.
Not all people are like him. Setup is done once, there is no need to tinker more and more if the software you need is configured.
@@Martin.Krischik You literally got screwed switching. Watch as you're probably going to get stuck in Apple's walled garden.
I could never go back to modern Windows or modern macOS given what's going on.
@@user-dc9zo7ek5j That wasn't my experience. Mine was more like every time I wanted to use the scanner SANE needed to be configure again as the configuration didn't survive any kernel update.
@@cameronbosch1213 I switched 20 years ago and after that I had a computer which actually worked and didn't need tinkering after every kernel update.
It's only now with with Apple silicon I wonder if I need to switch back because of walled garden. But even if: I had a UNIX™ system which worked flawless for 20 years. I don't feel screwed at all.
10:40
> in fact the vast majority of people who use Linux right now are using Wayland whether they know it or not
But I think it's the other way around, vast majority of people are still using X11/Xserver whether they know it or not.
Xwayland, which I assume should be present on any wayland setup, runs X11/Xserver in the background.
Wayland has come so far and it is amazing, but I have to agree, it is the little things. It still isn't there...yet.
I'm currently daily driving qtile on wayland, works (almost) perfectly fine for me. The only issue is I don't like how a couple of things are done in qtile bar and on stupid wayland it's the only choice. I don't use OBS though. BTW qtile is inspired by xmonad so it also has its roots in almighty dwm.
When I switched from sway to I3, purely the only reason was for lower latency in video games and digital vibrance adjustment... There's a launch argument for wlroots to Enable Allow Screen Tearing and imperfect frames on sway... Once an easy digital vibrant adjustment is added, either through launch argument Or a CLI or GUI application, I won't be switching to walyand yet...
Why did you ever leave? Stay with what works, until it doesn't. :-D My best advice for a stable system, if that's what you want. That way of thinking has served me well since 2004. :-D
Wayland is really only good on desktop environments right now, specifically (and mainly) KDE, and also Gnome, so it's totally understandable if you prefer Xorg for window managers right now as its ecosystem is way more mature for sure. I'd reckon that will change fairly quickly within the next year or two however once wayland matures and more DE/WMs start adopting wayland.
@@undersquire I agree. That being said, they're running out of time before XOrg iterally becomes unmaintained.
wine is still buggy no matter the composer, I don't really care if something's a bit laggy or has some quirks, but some stuff just doesnt work at all thru xwayland. Maybe in a year or two things would be better, I wish they were better, but they arent
I'm also back to Xorg. But, when wayland works well I will come back.
As a non-content creator Hyprland has been my stable daily driver the last year and change. I do a lot of my school and work from it, including data recovery. Gaming has also been fine for me as well.
Wayland is over-hyped. Try wine gaming there and see how well that goes. A lot of cool window managers don't have an equivalent alternative. A lot of important niche software like reaper or aseprite won't have a wayland version for the foreseeable future and I think there were problems with xwayland. It's just a more painless experience to stick to X. Wait a few years and come back to check on things.
@oredaze 5 years ago, I agreed with you. Now, unfortunately, with IBM pulling all maintenance support of XOrg after RHEL 9 hits EoL, you're best bet is to either try ot help your favorite WM across the Wayland finish line or look for something similar that does support Wayland (like Sway if you're using i3 or Wayfire if you used Openbox or something with Compiz).
I couldn't find any issues with XWayland even on Nvidia recently. Could you explain what problems Reaper had under XWayland, because I don't use it and I haven't had any issues with any XWayland usage. In fact, recently, I've had more problems when using XOrg.
wine gaming works fine for me idk what you're talking about, and I can't live without fractional scaling
@@raidev_ I can't run a lot of the games that run on X.
@@oredaze never encountered that, give me an example
@@raidev_ I just ran through all the non-steam games I have. The following run fine on Xorg, but not wayland:
age of empires definitive edition
arcanum
alien vs predator
blade of darkness
blasphemous
blood fresh supply
starcraft
commandos
dead cells
diablo
enter the gungeon
gothic 1 & 2
heroes 3
icewind dale 2
into the breach
loop hero
noita
oddworld 1 & 2
pillars of eternity
planescape torment
stoneshard (runs but the window is semi transparent)
c&c tiberian sun
warcraft 3
Yes, a lot of them are old and new games tend to run on wayland like dark souls 1,2,3, but the list here is 80% of my favorite games...
xorg forever....let's hope the OpenBSD people keep it alive with xenocara.
They hate linux though, they've stripped linux compatible system calls for ones specific to OpenBSD.
@@nou712 which is understandable
2:56 Krusader! My fav filemanger since KDE3.
6:50 Why do you say “XOrg is a dying technology and it’s not being maintained anymore”?
Last release was in April 2024 and they just had their XOrg DevCon in Montreal, Canada.
12:31 Exactly that happened to Funtoo Linux. Daniel Robbins decided to retire the project in 2024.
My favorite Xorg shill.
Fedora, KDE, Wayland - stuff works totally fine. Granted, I don’t do streaming or content creation, mostly gaming and coding and all that stuff works just fine.
As somebody who's diving into Linux details for some years now, I wonder why an application has to be XOrg / Wayland compatible in any way. I mean a Windows 95 application still works to this day on Win 11 e.g.. A desktop application should not care about who's rendering it to the screen, right? What's going on here?
I would expect the gpu driver or maybe the GUI toolkit to handle and manage differences between Xorg and Wayland. What needs to be changed on a list view or button or whatever gadget to make it work on a Wayland desktop?
If somebody can explain?
I'm not 100% sure, since I didn't got to code in that area, but I think it's because all this rendering + non-rendering is NOT done through a well-known and well-established interface. Apps actually directly have X as a dependency and call directly X code. When I said rendering, X and Wayland aren't just renderers they also deal with input. When you type something on your keyboard, if I'm not mistaken, X is the first one to receive it and pass it along to the apps. And here's one inherent flaw with X that is solved by Wayland - X is effectively a keylogger provider in the sense that any app using X can "listen" to everyhing you type.
Windows 95 apps still working I think are dealt with in the same way as XWayland, though easier. Actually in the same way wine works for Linux. The win32 API is simply there to take care of the Windows 95 apps, even if Windows 11 uses something else.
@@Winnetou17 Ok, yes.. I think I can see some parallels here now. So, then just have the XWayland thing and be fine? Not sure where the drawback is, when running XWayland (which seems to be a X server running on Wayland). It sounds like the Microsoft approach, keep the API around, be compatible to your own past, add the new desktop API in the mix and be fine? o)
I have to say, I'm kind of dissapointed by the Linux "compatibility" to itself by now. I ran Debian11 for some time, then played around with Debian12 and noticed several applications or packages would not run anymore, missing dependencies and what not. Not a fun experience. If things break, just because some minor package is gone or is only available in a specific version, I think that is a big issue with the regular package management on Linux.
The package management system should be able to handle old and new versions of a package at the same time, Windows can do it and so you don't need "rolling" vs. "stable" releases, it's all in one, it just depends on what version of library / application you request, the stable old one or the shiny new one with all the bugs in there. o)
Well, anyhow, I think I learned some new bits, I also read some articles by now. Thank you! o)
@@ytbone9430 Yeah, I'm a bit disappointed too that there's no (extra) relaeses with static libraries. That is, to have all dependencies built in. The executable will be bigger (both on disk and on RAM), but guess what - no dependency issues. You can run a 30 year old executable with no issues on the latest kernel.
I get the appeal of dynamic libraries, but to this day "dependency hell" is a thing, so it's clearly not bullet proof. As old versions stop getting supported, having them released with static libraries would be awesome. It's very likely that the compatibility with new libraries might break anyway so it's not like you're missing on anything. This way we won't need things like AppImages which currently are the closest thing of having the ability to run older versions.
This is from someone who just looked at superficially (I wanted to build a Wayland proxy).
The APIs are different. It is like web APIs, but insted of using network calls, they use shared pipes to communicate.
As you can image, the remote API changed to something very different, so the apps need to understand a new protocol to communicate.
@@Winnetou17 Yes, AppImages for the Win! o) I like the concept, it makes Linux work more like Windows. I'm used to run collected and older applications or games from external HDD, USB or from a network location. This is possible with AppImages only (at least it's very easy). They also allow different versions of a program and "portable" mode to carry settings along, they also bring (most) dependencies, as you mentioned. I think it's the way to go. The Flatpak thing already seems to restricted for my taste, it handles the dependencies, but I need to install huge runtimes and still cannot run two versions or run things from central network and share applications and settings between multiple systems. Thank you for taking the time! o)
For me ssh -X just works on xorg. Have no reason to move as lxqt on debian 12 is on all rigs. Sure there's advance reasons for Wayland for the "average joe" xorg works plenty fine.
At least you are still sticking with OpenSuse!
Is Xorg the default on most of the big distros like Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, etc? I don't know much about this stuff.
ubuntu 24.04 uses wayland default on anything but nvidia, 24.10 started using wayland in nvidia.
mint barely have wayland support
fedora will remove x11 in fedora 41, you will need to install manually
@@Zotato777 Thank you, I made sure to screenshot your response, so I don't forget.
Xorg is only useful as a fallback method due to its stability, backwards compatibility, or if Wayland just stops working out of the blue.
Despite Xorg's useful capability and it just works, it's very clunky and slow, touch screen is very inaccurate.
Wayland will always have certain bugs. But the smoothness in performance, better touch screen precision, and minimalism makes it more convenient for gaming and helps me get my work done much faster.
Kubuntu 24.10 is great... but I use left-handed mouse configurations and that are grayed out in Wayland. Such a simple adaption and Wayland drops the ball big time! Back to xorg, because Wayland sucks for me with that one simple change. I searched for a solution and I am not finding it. Xorg works for me. Wayland doesn't accommodate my needs.
I will always stay with Xorg, until it gives me any issues. Been using Linux since 2003 and had zero issues. I even use Nvidia in all my machines with no issue there either. But I always had used the proprietary drivers.
Been using Sway for years now and never had a desire to switch to anything else. I don't know why people forget about Sway and keep talking about Hyprland. I'll try Hyprland when it's more mature and a bit stable. The drama with the dev also turned me off trying it.
Same. Been using sway for years and will probably use it for the foreseeable future.
I will keep using Wayland because I find it, in general, less buggy than Xorg. But those are valid points. I tried using Xorg and it didn't really improve anything in my experience. I am used to Wayland. I like Hyprland. It has its problems, but I think it is good enough.
What is the best image viewer on Linux?
As usual, Wayland is very slowly getting better, but as long as it doesn't support the same features as X11, there will still be reasons to come back to the "legacy" Xorg
Since the Plasma 6 release, I have been using Wayland exclusively on my Desktop.
But my laptop will be stuck to X11 for the foreseeable future.
This due to the HS611 drawing tablet I use not working properly on Wayland, from the community made kludge not having been ported.
My other Wacom Pro tablet not having an easy way to disable the touchpad functionality without xinput, which ruins strokes if left enabled.
And the OnBoard on screen keyboard displaying with a window border and crashing, though this might have been fixed since.
Those being less of an issue at my desktop, where my Wacom Intuos 3 tablet works fine thanks to lacking touchpad functionality.
And when not at campus, I can use a normal keyboard next to my tablet whereas at uni I don't have the space on most tables.
I periodically try out wayland but I can't get the iBus input method running on it so it's not feasible as a daily driver for me.
For me the choice is easy because Xfce and Wayland, not available yet.
@@johanb.7869 Xfce is getting there, slowly but surely.
I think you being a streamer and using tools like OBS really makes all pitfalls of Wayland stand out. Most users who watch videos and write text on their computer really should not notice any issues with Wayland.
I use Wayland because x11 would not work with out re configuring my display manger but Wayland has problems most likely because of a arm64 CPU
I run Mint, so I generally stick with Cinnamon... and as luck would have it... it doesn't run on Wayland yet :-) I don't dislike Wayland... but I'm like you... I don't enjoy the lack of choice in WM's. Time will fix that, but until then... and until I find a distro I like better, I'm sticking with Mint....and Xorg. :-)
I'm happy in wayland with nVidia GPU today. No problems in.. many months
You're telling people a different thing everyday, are you? I wonder what's actually going on if you are never settling or just doing it for the sake of content without having an actual solidified opinion.
Thats the dark side of professional distro hopping
A critical thinker never settles.
@@lowzyyy For me it's the opposite, all paths lead to Arch BTW, I have one way my stuff needs to be configured and this distro can provide it x)
It's just so strange if you just look through his videos from the overview, everytime he's "going back" to XYZ and if you trace it you got a circle x) The linux youtubers I see just fixate on one or two distros at a time and that's it
@@GraniteFaun thats because he is bored. To him linux is playground. To me linux is just a system for my development.
I switched from w11 because of all their bs and now on Debian. So far i dont have iresistant urge to change to other distros because my primary time is used on other things instead of being bored and looking at the screen like him
What about sway?
Growing pains vs ol reliable
Wayland on Arch-gnome-nvidia has been frustrating for me due to UI FPS stuttering. I've tried some iffy triple buffering patch from AUR but it did little to no difference. I heard Plasma has no issues tho, never tried.
Every time I log in Plasma X11 session and see the ping of window movement, how slow every window is moving compared to my coursor, I want to forget about Xorg existence. Wayland is very snappy and fast, on Wayland windows don't run for the coursor, they're moved by the coursor as they should be
No one should apologize for using software that works better for them. It's a travesty how poorly the transition to Wayland has gone, but then, Python 2 -> 3 was pretty awful too. Maybe it's just the way this sort of thing goes. Hopefully everyone can look back on this time 10 years from now, happily using our amazing and varied Wayland environments barely remembering what all the fuss was about, but...we'll see.
The biggest problem with xorg is configuration which is worsened by overenginereed and overcomplicated design. Biggest problems with wayland are adoption and fracturing. Wayland does things that much more sanely and that much less hacky so that it is easier to debug issues when they arise.
As for a choice as backend for DEs - don't care about either. When it comes down to using DE, if you have to mess with the internals means that things have already gone terribly wrong and its gonna be a pain.
Wayland with AMD is incredible.. the only thing missing is gamma control.
When Sunshine and Wayland manage to work I'll use it, until then it's Xorg for me
@@BocVel i use sunshine on wayland daily.
For gamers with radeon cards, using Xorg is basically impossible as features like allowing different refresh rates on monitors, VRR, Tearing support and fractional scaling only really work well (or work at all) in wayland. You also leave performance on the table by using Xorg when you play games through proton.
It's a shame because my favourite desktop, Mate, still doesn't support wayland and i'm not a big KDE fan, like at all, i've only had weird bugs with plasma.
I went back to windows for the time being until wayland is fully usable in mate because i would otherwise have to use plasma and i don't like it. At least with windows 10 i have access to the official GOG launcher (i don't like to rely on third party apps when i'm gonna pay using a credit card)
Maybe hyperland is buggy. I had 0 problems with Sway. I cannot say the same about GNOME and Plasma. I am shocked that people use those two on daily basis. Theh are unusable and some bags have not been fxed for years.
when will discord fix screen sharing on wayland???
Probably never, I use vesktop instead of discord. I never had an issue screen sharing
What is the benefit of using discord in an app instead of in a browser ? Genuine question. I use MS Teams for my work and since I don't trust it, I always run it in a browser tab. So far I had no issues, I don't think I'm missing anything from not having a desktop app. Screen sharing works with no issues.
@@Winnetou17 Is up to you. Personally I like it on an app... The discord app is just a fancy web app anyway. Either way is going to be the same.
my big issue with wayland is one : The pure lack of care the protocols heads care about the users experience, instead forcing their politics into it, such as "for security" or such... Global short cuts is a great example of a protocol that the 99% want, but the 1% dislike. Basic functionality missing. Makes linux look like a downgrade rather than a upgrade, or same as windows / macOS.
Constant protocol stalling, protocols get stalled for years, hell even decades before finally added. This is a massive issue as how the hell is this supposed to be the "future display server" if it can't even add basic things developers, and people want.
Overall wayland has a lot of things that need to be addressed. As while its now finally usable, its not a great experience. Only reason I use it is because of the smoothness of gaming. if x11 was the same I wouldn't care about wayland. But here we are. Hopefully wayland improves, preferably sooner rather than later. Or a fork of wayland that fixes the major issues takes off. Who knows. Only the future will tell.
Wayland is like the cool but flawed protagonist, they need some character development and a story behind their eyes. Xorg is like a jaded old mentor/antagonist, their ideals and morals may not be great but it's attitude and somewhat carelessness is what got it through it's rough life of good enough hacks and seeing the rise and fall of massive machines to devices that you can fit in your pocket. Just because the mentor is broken, flawed, and shabby in some places, doesn't mean that there isn't something to learn.
The constant distro hopping is why in using basic Mint, and am debating Ubuntu MATE. They work, work well, can be customized if i want, and i can just get on with development.
Since the triple buffering it is now acceptable. Now on Kubuntu 24.10
Yip had to make some adjustments when KRDC did not work and load wayland rpd think it was freerdp and it behaves a bit different... but so far not having serious issues.
Xorg has cool name ngl but i think it should again developed alongside wayland. Maybe a fork would be cool
In defense of Wayland tiling/floating WMs, I don't think any of them have reached version 1.0. So technically I would consider them still in beta.
That's not a defense though. That actually reinforces his point that wm are a nascent and small scene relative to xorg lol
That's a good point, I guess. Though with the way Hyprland keeps rewriting and inventing their own ecosystem, it may never get to the "stable" point.
Sway is in version 1.9
@@Kamion008 Good to know. Thanks.
@TrolleyTrampInc you were so close, but HOW did u managed to use the wrong AND the correct your in the SAME SENTENCE?
even i change my mind a lot lol , its cool that linux is actually having that feature , we're still explorers