Knitting with a Roman Dodecahedron
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 29 авг 2024
- How to knit a glove finger with a model of a Roman Dodecahedron.
Links:
Martin Hallett's video: • The Roman Dodecahedron...
Jacant's models on Shapeways, with thin walls for plastic (he also has thick-walled models to be 3D-printed in ceramic):
small: www.shapeways....
medium: www.shapeways....
large:www.shapeways....
The scientific paper describing a dodecahedron "in situ":
rao.revues.org/...
Paul Garland's photo of 4 dodecahedra at the French Museum of Antiquities in Paris. www.flickr.com...
![BabyChiefDoit - Wonderful Time (Official Music Video) [Shot By @Rxllo]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_Bfqt3zV2KE/mqdefault.jpg)
So @MakeCraftDo has made a series of 6 short videos where she makes a pair of complete gloves using a Roman Dodecahedron! I suggest y’all go check them out! The playlist is here: ruclips.net/p/PLrcUrvayabVubi-atz0O47G2m6MjFTgQ8
Still waiting to see a pair of gloves made with different sized fingers due to the hole sizes.
When I first saw the Metal Roman Dodecahedron; with the Testosterone Driven "Oike"; that I am; I thought it was some sort of elaborate "Grenade" Like Weapon.....
I could NOT be more pleasantly Surprised that it is actually a Complex Wool Hand "Glove-Maker" and Perhaps an Elaborate Chain-Making Jewellery Maker!
Sheer Genius; considering the "Age" this Practical-Tool and Artefact was actual Developed and 'Well', Perfected.....
I am Now in the Process of Acquiring A Plastic Replica so; that I can learn the Skills of using one....And Who knows; I can make my own Bespoke Gloves!
I have learned about Mosaic and Roman Baths, Etc. in the Past; But this Baby takes the Full-Biscuit. 10/10!
👍👍👍👍
@@garychin5321 box really, it doesn’t work. 5 stitches cannot make a finger nor palm. It’s someone with too much imagination. It’s in a par with Mythbusters, when after the bust the myth that “ok, this thing won’t make the car explode. What can we do differently to make the car explode, anyway?” They are exploding the car anyway, after having busted the myth of these things making gloves.
These things have long reminded me of the wooden cotton reels with 4 pins in the top that we used to do 'French Knitting' on as little girls. A far more sophisticated version of course!
To make the parts to cover the palm & back of the hand you would have to make a long cord & sew it into 2 spirals, just as we sewed the 'French knitting' we made as children, (using a wooden cotton reel with 4 pins stuck in the top,) to make our dolls rugs & shawls.
Maybe they were able to make a fatter tube to cover the hand though & then sew the narrower tubes on to the end of that for your fingers to go in.
>Grabs historical artifact that thousands of archeologists cant figure out
>makes a glove with it
>doesnt elaborate
based granny
EXCELLENT experimental demonstration. It could actually be the real purpose of these things, especially when you consider these have NEVER been found in the WARMER climates of the Roman Empire!
These have only been found in the COLDER climate regions. If these were designed for making different sized ropes/cords, then these would be found in ALL regions of the Empire, but if they are for making knitted fingers for gloves, then it makes sense for these to be found only in the colder regions.
This is by far, the most logical explanation for these things.
They obviously were not made for any "tent setups" because some are as small as a golf ball, and others are the size of baseballs.
But it makes very good sense for making children's gloves for the smaller ones and adult sized gloves for the larger ones.
BUT, having said all that, if they were for making gloves, then I'd expect there to be MANY more of them found, simply because THOUSANDS of inhabitants would be needing a LOT of gloves for those cold months, and more than a few "knitting machines" would be needed to fulfill the demands for tens of thousands of winter gloves.
Craig Escaped Detroit many thanks for the kind words! Yes you are mirroring my thoughts exactly. Did I mention that over a hundred of these have been found?Of course I cannot prove that they WERE used for knitting. But what got my goat was people making fun of Martin’s attempt and saying it absolutely COULD NOT work. It’s hard to prove a broad positive statement, but it is easy to disprove a broad negative statement. You just need one counter-example.
Have you taken into consideration that the person who did this video is exhibiting confirmation bias ,and is not even addressing the fact that some of these artifacts don't even have holes ? Here is an example from a museum.
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/2018_Rheinisches_Landesmuseum_Bonn%2C_Dodekaeder_%26_Ikosaeder.jpg
thank you, any more info or articles from the archeological communities? what are their thoughts on this? everywhere I ve look so far is speculation 🤔
@@cristristam9054 , the one without holes isn't a dodecahedron, it is a 20 sided object. Also, the knobs are notably of differing sizes on the 20 sided object. While it shares similarity in that it is a polyhedron with knobs, it is significantly different, and likely for a different purpose entirely.
@@cristristam9054 maybe they are for different patterns and not just for gloves.
When i was a kid my grandfather take me to hunting near the austrian alps. He had this thing but made out of wood. He used it to make a tent. He searcht for a long straight woos stick and put this thing on top of it. Depending which holes you put the stick trough you get higher or smaller tents. You ram the stick in the ground witch the other end. Now you have 3 layers of pins where you can connect your tent sheet. If finished you have 3 layers of a tent sheet with a small distance of air between them. You can make a small fire inside the tent because the smoke will go through the other holes into the thing and out of it on the top of the tent. It was very warm inside even if it was cold outside and snowing.
If that is true and not just something you just made up, you should really tell archaeologists about it! Because thousands of these have been found, always in cold mountainous areas. And no one knows what they are for.
Even the knitting hypothesis has been argued heavily against. They are STILL a mystery.
Who knew? Slick. A Roman era knitting machine? Well done.
... Except it's not in this video is an insane extrapolation of a fanciful wishful thinking when the reality is much different, and in fact, they exist tons of evidence to the contrary about what these were actually used for
@@LadyBits2023😂😂😂
@@LadyBits2023 Then tell me Darling, what WERE they REALLY used for?
@@TimeSurfer206 probably gambling.
A knitting machine for making chain with gold wire. The different sized holes are to pull the chain through in turn to compact the chain
When I was a child, my grandmother (born in 1901 in Alabama) taught me how to make lace using a technique that works in a very similar manner. She would drive small nails in a pattern around the end of an empty wooden spool (the kind used for thread) and off she'd go, twining and dropping. This clever tool does appear to work in a similar manner.
Yes! “Spool-knitting”
I am 82. When we were kids ( in the UK ) we used a wooden cotton reel, with panel pins hammered around the central hole. Using wool, just like this, we would weave long woolen tubes (like a pyjama cord); This was known as caulking or corking. I suppose other forms could have been woven just the same. Now that wooden cotton reels seem to have gone the way of the Dodo I imagine this 'pastime' has died out.
No, it’s called spool knitting or loom knitting, and the spools or looms are available ready made at craft stores! Or on the Internet. Thank you for your account of a real folk art form!
@@ChertineP Thanks. Didn't know what it is called. I just pointed out what we in the UK called it, in the Midlands! To us it was caulking or corking. Making pyjama cords!
Someone thinks it might have been the Roman way of making rope, with bigger spheres for bigger ropes. I dunno really!
@@Jazzwayze Oh that is very interesting! I’ve been reading some books about the English Navy during the Napoleonic wars, and they always talk about the caulking coming out from between the boards, and I wondered what that was I wonder if it is this kind of knitted cordage.
When I said, “no, it’s called spool knitting or loom knitting”, I didn’t mean to argue with you about your word for it, I meant to tell you “No, it hasn’t disappeared it’s called spool knitting now!” I really appreciate your comment! Thanks!
I'm in my 40s from the UK and we did the same thing, but we called it French Knitting. Googling it, I can see it's still a popular craft.
@@infamyinfamyyes, in South Africa too. French knitting. I used to really enjoy it!
Archaeologists of the future are probably going to think fidget spinners were weapons or religious symbols.
Yo-Yos were weapons once upon a time, so that's not too far off, haha.
@RsRj-qd2cg No they won't. Spinning tops have been around since before recorded history, and gyros will always have a place.
Fidget spinners were used purely for ceremonial purposes.
Archaeologists be like: " Is this peer reviewed tho?"
Alejandro Gorricho lol I know right? Not trying to say it WAS used by Romans at all! There is no evidence. Actually I was just trying to show it was doable, cause someone stated on that other video’s comments that it was absolutely IMPOSSIBLE! I’m just contrary that way :)
Well their peers reviewed it. Doesn't that make it peer reviewed technically?
lets be honest... if we can think of this use for this item now past people would have thought it too. i honestly think this is a very plausible use for the items.
and this little demonstration is a great example of experimental archaeology :)
This goes around every so often. There are many knitting, crocheting, and naalbinding experts among archeologists and curators. There is a thriving historical knitting community, and it has looked at this. The consensus is that this is extremely unlikely to have been the use. A simple knitting spool would be easier to use, and make better gloves, especially for beginners. Also, there is no evidence of loosely knitted gloves or any indication that anything of this sort was used. If it was it would be sort of like a party trick. Just...no.
thumbelinasmum thanks for a well-reasoned and gracious reply!
As kids in the U.K. (1960 & 1970s) we used to do this with a cotton reel with nails in it. We used to call it French knitting.
Several people have asked if this makes knitting fingers for gloves easier. IMO, for a proficient knitter or crocheter, probably not. But for someone who doesn’t or barely knits this kind of loom knitting is something anyone can learn in a couple tries, and exists in many forms at your local craft store to this day. So yes, for beginners.
A sismple
Vidalion a simple knitting spool would work to make better gloves, for more easily than fooling with one of these. Not that there is any evidence for knitting in this period. There is naalbinding, but no knitting spools, nor writing, Noer extant examples of knitting. The history’s last knitters have looked at this, and, just, no. It’s not feasible, especially not for beginners, nor does it make decent gloves. People then were sensible enough to not spend extra time making gloves in a “party trick” way. The sides have different sized holes, but the pegs are all the same distance apart, and the holes don’t matter, only the pegs, so it makes no sense to use for different sized fingers. There is no reason suggested as to why this would be an advantage.
@@thumbelinasmum the knowledge of roman concrete and color changing glass were lost for thousands of years. maybe people discovered a rudimentary form of knitting during the roman period and lost it during the dark ages.
possibilites!
@@bobloblaw9679 given that this method doesn’t work, and the nonsensical claims that the different sized holes make the fingers different sizes, and the “gloves” made are nothing but holes, it’s ridiculous to suggest these things are for knitting. Nothing about it makes sense.
I think knitting something as small as fingers on 4 double point knitting needles is quite difficult.
I learned something called "corking" when I was a child. It consisted of an empty thread spool with 4 nails evenly spaced on one end. Then the yarn was woven around the nails. It came out the bottom as a cord which could be made into hats, slippers, mats, etc. depending on how long you made the cord.
Wow this is awesome. I can't imagine anything else this device could be used for, it has to be a knitting tool. Whoever invented this was a genius
Little old ladies are out here solving decade's old mysteries that has the greatest archeologists stumped.
*decades-old
Learn to spell basic English.
No one solved anything.
The Romans might have used it to knit and repair mail chain gloves. Genius.
@@rlizabethcastillo5541 chain mail is made from rings. It cannot be knitted.
@@thumbelinasmum I am just speculating but you bring up a good point. We really don’t know what these objects actually were used for. I have heard that they are found a lot in places where the army was stationed. I wonder if it was used for something do do with protecting them.
@@rlizabethcastillo5541 the army makes me wonder even more about gaming, TBH!
@@thumbelinasmumYou mean gambling?
@@thumbelinasmumThough if they were, why would they add those little balls on the ends? It was definitely either used for knitting or for measuring something.
The Virgin Archeologists: well it's obviously a religious or astronomical artifact
The Chad Martin and ChertineP:
The Non-Virgin Archaeologists: Obviously a male fertility ritual
Yes, I agree with this. Saw the dodecahedron at the British museum years ago and gloves was the first thing I thought of.
I had the same thought about the purpose of these things when I learned of their existence. The idea that they're for knitting gloves seems consistent with their distribution. They're found in the colder parts of the former Roman Empire. Also, it could be that the reason no writers of the age bothered to mention them was because they were used for a humble task--like knitting gloves--as might be done by slaves or housewives.
It would also explain why the holes are in so many graduated sizes. (For differently-sized fingers and thumbs.) Unless they show up in artwork, household items do tend to be poorly documented, both for the reasons you mentioned ("women's work") and because at the time everyone KNEW what they were for.
@@glossaria2to be fair these things are pretty nifty pieces of tech. I'm no blacksmith, but since that specific shape doesn't seem required to make gloves (if it were the only way, we would have kept using them from then til now I suppose), making something this bizarre... I'd expect blacksmiths to brag about it. "I made a hjarksgafraral hehehe" kind of thing. Even if we don't know what it was, we'd at least have a name. Unless the blacksmiths were similarly socially ignored in the places they made these.
"Everybody knew and nobody wrote" feels more realistic, but also difficult to accept. The best I can think is those shoehorns, because the only time you're thinking about them is when you have to. Even still, if like to hope we don't forget those little things, like the shoehorn.
Lots of examples if this. I still have my grandmother's hat pins. They're 6" of very sharp, pointed steel with ornamentation on the blunt end.
Any later generation would assume they were weapons.
@@MarkusAldawn Talking of things that everyone knows and no-one writes down, there was a very famous sauce called Egyptian sauce, I think it was, which was used widely throughout ancient history - but no-one ever wrote down the recipe so now we have no idea what was in it! They just wrote in recipe books 'Now add some Egyptian sauce' etc So now we'll never know.
@@JaneNewAuthor I mean, hat pins rather were weapons in a pinch...
Okay, this is VERY interesting to me! I considered taking up knitting and my wife actually picked it up instead. She's a VERY good knitter and makes fingerless gloves regularly, mainly because one can still type (or knit) with them on... not because she can't do fingers. This theory makes much more sense than the "religious artifact" theory. Very condescending of modern archaeologists to automatically attribute something we don't understand to "obviously" being a religious object of some sort. I bet with practice gloves could be whipped out pretty quickly, but time will tell. Thanks for the video!!! I saw the other guy's video first, but he clearly wasn't a knitter. ;0) j/k
Thanks for the good words! I'm glad you found the video helpful.
We still don't know what the Romans used these for. This is an interesting theory but it doesn't explain those found about the size of an egg and those almost basketball sized...the holes then are nowhere near finger-sized!
Please don't use this as ANY kind of resource for knitting knowledge. I'm not convinced this person knows a single thing about gauge and how it works. This technique would 100% result in the same sized tube from all 12 sides.
Michael Brown the largest is 11 cm (4.3 inches), hardly the size of a basketball.
@@VioKyuuketsuki yeah, but if you put a stone inside the hole, it would allow you to make the tube larger. I can see it being used to sleeve all sorts of things, from gloves to actual shirtsleeves, maybe even sacks to hold certain items.
signora lei e' geniale e altamente logica grazie per averci ridato una vecchia tradizione dimentocata nei secoli in italia!!!!!
Must have been galling for archaeologists when knitting enthusiasts turn their religious artifacts into glove knitting tools. LOL!
Everything they are ignorant of is "ritualistic" or "religious", like every building with an unknown purpose is a "temple" or "tomb."
This is presumably a result of assuming that ancient people were less intellectually developed than moderns, when the opposite is more likely.
More ‘Gaul’ing, I’d imagine...
@@forestdenizen6497 "If you don't know what it is, then it's probably 'ceremonial'"~Every archaeologist EVER.
The ones I know are shaking their heads. There are many textile historians, experts in the various forms of handwork. They have looked at these videos, giving the makers full credit for creativity. Then shook their heads, smiled and moved on, knowing full well there isn’t a scrap of evidence for this, and a simple round knitting spool would do the same job, far more easily, faster, and yielding a better fabric. Of course knitting spools post date this era, as well. This video may fool handwork novices, and people who haven’t done any historical research, but really, it’s just made up.
@@paulswan5269 Love it....Gallia est divisa in partes tres.....
You almost had it. I clicked on this video to see if another crafter woman had figured out the obvious. It is not a glove maker -- it is for making cord. This is the Roman version of a spooler loom same as you find in they yarn section of any craft store. The only difference is the spooler has 4 nubs and this one has five.
The different size holes are to accommodate different sized yarns. I made one back in the day with a large size wood spool and four nails, using a crochet hook to do the loops. I bet these items were expensive, metal was pricy back then, and perhaps given to a bride as a wedding gift.
Patricia Elrod sorry, I just saw this. That is not a bad theory at all! Maybe for belts, or bridle reins? Fancy ones, I mean.
why not both or maybe even more items?
Roman soldiers were taught to do everything, so it isn't a given that it was used by women. Different sized yarns doesn't make sense, because their wool would probably be spun in a limited range of thickness. Possibly linen could have been knit on it.
Roman soldiers probably made their own clothes. They were practical engineers, could erect a city in nothing flat, and build roads, shoe their horses, do their own saddlery, weapons, it stands to reason that they would have made their own gloves, with different sizes for different sized fingers. Perhaps braided metal wire, who knows?
It looks like a flexible tool, could be used for making braided leather reins, or bridles - but I think the work involved in cutting leather up into tiny strips to be knit wouldn't be worth it. Knitting was supposedly begun by Arab traders, sitting on camels going through the desert, so it was a man's craft. Add to that the coastal fishermen making their own nets with some sort of knitting or knot making.
@@susantunbridge4612 Nets.... fishing nets, nets to capture someone - all good ideas. Chain mail, maybe? Meaning knit protective wear. Since it was often found with money, why not a "means of exchange/trade?" Example: One medium dodecahedron = the equivalent of $50? Smaller ones were = $10. ? Also, don't discount the theory of various sized "chords/ropes;" all such things would be useful; and in different sizes.
First thing I thought of as soon as I saw it. For pulling the finger throught the hole, consider attaching a weight to the end of the yarn that keeps the yarn taught. My modern i cord knitting gizmo works that way.
This is a great demonstration of theory! Thank you for posting.
I suspect the dodecahedron itself would look different if this were its intended purpose but you have far surpassed any theory -much less demonstration- of mine. 😃
I find this subject very interesting. From what I was researching knitting was invented in a certain part of the middle east within in a certain century. And that it took a long while before knitting came to Rome. And that these dodecahedrons were invented in Rome a century or so before knitting like this was invented. At anyrate, this is a facinating subject.
Here in the UK we call this "Corking" when I was a child we would take an empty wooden cotton reel, knock four small tacks around the base and wind the wool round in the same way and you got a long tube, that you could make into table mats etc, we used a small knitting needle to make the stitches.
I'm also in the UK and a "knitting dolly" is what we called them when I was a child. I had one but all I made was one long strand. Never knew what to do with it so it just kept getting longer and longer.
@@njhunt1 We called them a `knitting Nancy`. Mine was a bought one, painted like a Kings Guard, I still have it 60 years on, very faded but still recognisable. I used to knit long cords, spiral these around into a circle and sew in place to make table mats. What lovely memories this has brought back.😀
It's a quaint theory, but it doesn't line up with the archaeology.
From about ~6500 BCE, through the Roman period and up to ~1000 CE, naalbinding was the sole form of knitting. It uses completely different stitches and forming a tube isn't difficult since it starts off in the round anyways (you have to double back on yourself if you want a flat length like a scarf). The notion of distribution patterns neither works since quite a few pieces of what has been preserved are from Egypt and the Levant, including one letter from a soldiers in Alexandria requesting socks the same as in Vindolanda; turns out people like socks irregardless of where they're from.
Great idea if you want to use it for knitting, but so far as a historical use is concerned it holds a much water as a colander
I totally agree with you. I have no evidence that it was used this way in that time. What got me going were the arguments stating categorically that it *could not* be used this way. (This was in the comments to Martin Hallett’s video -see description below my video) It’s easy to disprove a blanket statement like that. So I did. Thanks for your subtle, well-reasoned comment!
Not a mystery - going along the edges, we have to traverse the vertices of the dodecahedron so that we pass through each vertex only once returning to the vertex we departed. All peaks must be touched. The traversal of the vertices in the Roman logic game can be guided using a piece of thread, fixing it to the small spheres at the vertices of the dodecahedron to mark the path. (kind of Ancient Rubik's Cube, a logical game of the Romans). Hamilton-path, Graph Theory, Discrete Mathematics. Naturally, the design cast in bronze was a luxury item, common version was carved in wood and a nail driven into each vertex guiding the thread.
I've seen the dodecahedron used as a cypher machine.
There would be two standard disc with different size post, for the different width openings. The size of the discs to be used would change randomly...who knows without any paper records.
You're all wrong, we still use them today to measure spaghetti portions 😉
hahaha! spaghetti made their way from China to Italy more than thousand years later...
Ra-man, you're probably right 🙃 @@caththomas5152
😂😂😂
I had a friend in 6th grade and through Jr. Hi who made "rag rugs" with small nails placed round the hole in the middle of a thread spool. Super simple to make the "rope" to be coiled and only really limited by the size of the hole in the spool. This makes sense.
That's all the proof I need. Some kind of knitting/weaving tool was what i thought the first time I saw one.
The other youtube video has a five finger version. I think once you get the hang of it you just figure out which holes you need and start knitting. The amazing thing is someone figured this out to invent it and someone figured it out when no one knew what it was for. Amazing. Makes total sense that back in the day they had plenty of time between battles or on horse back to sit there and make gloves. The coin theory doesn't seem to make sense to me bc the coins look so much larger than the holes. This has to be right.
Really...it’s not. There is no logical reason to make a 5 stitch glove on the various sides. The knobs are all the same distance apart, but the holes are different sizes. Anyone familiar with any form of handwork can see at a glance that the different sides won’t do anything but make using it to make gloves more difficult. And not even make decent gloves. They were experts at handwork in this period. They made incredible naalbinded clothing. If they wanted to do sis thing like this, a simpler knitting spool (which the video is attempting to suggest this an “advanced” version of) would make better gloves, with less work.
@@thumbelinasmum Different sides for different size fingers.
@@TeroHal the different sides are all the same size. The diameter of the hole doesn’t affect the spacing of knobs. The knobs are what dictate the size. There is no way to make the fingers different sizes. We have evidence that during this period, they were very skilled at nalbinding. If they needed gloves, nalbinding would have provided them neat, well fitting, warm, hard wearing gloves. No one has made a single glove that meets any of these criteria, yet, using one of these little knobby things. I think they were used like dice, for gambling.
Always fun to learn about ways our ancestors tackled clothes making without gigantic equipment.
@@LadyElaineLovegood all you need was a needle and thread to make warm, well fitting nalbinded gloves. These here are open and poorly shaped. Not at all warm, and fit poorly. Awkward to use the dice, when a single ring with legs would be easier, and work better. I think (and am not alone) that these things were more likely a gaming token of some sort.
That's a perfect inner wool glove for an outer leather glove
Alex Morlina good point! Thanks
@@humanityandconflicts Yes, you make very long ones by cutting them in a spiral shape from a piece of thin leather.
@@humanityandconflicts especially since bronze ones are sturdier, which is perfect for leather
How to knit the fingers together. When you have one tube finished, cast off all but two pegs. Carefully remove the tube and set it aside, with a knitting needle pokes through the last two stitches. When you're finishing the second finger, put the two unlocked stitches over two pegs for the second finger. When you cast off, the two are connected together. Repeat for two more fingers. For connecting to the thumb, is there a way to drop and cast off part of the pegs while making an extended 'tab' that's part of the tube? Still leaves knitting the rest of the glove body, or a couple of pieces of leather could be stitched together and the finger tubes stitched to it through punched holes? Wouldn't need to knit the thumb tube to the side of the index finger tube.
You are so smart. Thanks for sharing.
I'm pretty sure that if you look at your palm, and then look at dodecahedron, you would use the top half (evenly around like a pentagonal "circle") to cover the palm of your hand, and the bottom half evenly around to do the back portion of your hand perhaps overlapping and interlocking the stitches where they would meet around the perimeter of the center to "knit" the front and back together....or you could do it manually. I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure this would work.
I think you are onto something with the weaving... Possibly for use in making fish nets? The larger holes are used for more material/cordage/bigger nets? It somewhat fits with the geography of where they have been found.
This is the best idea yet that I've heard besides the glove sewing thing
Wrap the yarn on the outside of the peg and then bring the bottom loop over the top. Keep going around .It goes a lot faster and easier. Very interesting. Thanks.
Happy to see that something someone invented it, has their legacy not lost through history
Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. No, this is a fair way to try to figure out what this thing is for. It’s fantastic that we really don’t know.
I only learned of this today and it makes me so giddy to know you can use it for knitting! It makes so much sense! I really want one now as well
My gran use to use that to make gloves. i don't know what she called it, it was in her knitting box
inform the archaeologists! they think it's still a mystery
bobbin spool.
kenneth mccomiskie or knitting nancy
How did she make the main body of the glove using it? It seems OK for fingers but I can't imagine how it would be possible to go beyond that, using this.
@@ShintogaDeathAngel If i remember, she knitted a tube then knitted holes for the fingers with the hexagon. Each hole is for different size fingers. She also added mittens that went over the fingers. Toasty.
Random, but watching you eat the produce with dirt all over your fingers made me so happy. I get in trouble for that all the time, but it feels as if that's what "real" gardeners do.
It reminds me of a toy I had as a kid called "Strickliesel" (knitting dolly), though that could only produce a one-size-fits-all "finger".
This would only make once side, too, as the holes don’t matter, only the knob spacing. There is no way this can be used to make a decent glove, with only 5 stitches per finger.
This is used to make a string, for example from horsehair or even thin metal wire, it is also suitable for knitting. It is a wonder that the sages of the university have not realized this, simplicity.
If these gloves were made in wool, brushed, and then felted in warm water and wood ash (while on the hands, a bit like the old shrink to fit jeans), they may have been warmer, better wearing and more comfortable.
Yes, I think that's a good point! Thanks!
Or if the person who made the video understood anything about how gauge works or even just how knitting worked.
That would make a much finer piece of work.
I wish my mom was still alive so I could ask her about this. She was an archeologist who specialized in textiles and was especially interested in the contributions of women in ancient societies. She was also a knitter! I'm sure she would have had some interesting things to say about this topic.
@@VioKyuuketsuki ok bro
Speaking as a modern archaeology student we get a kick out of these things. "Ritual" is probably the most overused term in the entire field. Today we look at the word when used by our predecessors and know it frequently means "We don't have a clue." 😂 It also often means "we don't have the inclination or motivation to find out either."
I love when someone thinks outside the box for a possible use for seemingly random things.
It is a tent fitting. Simple and elegant solution to an army on the move.
The "experts" will say you're wrong, but they don't have a better explanation.
@@gregself6203 this is not any sort of explanation. Those things aren’t wearable gloves. They are not warm and they don’t fit. I propose that the dodecahedrons are gaming tokens or dice. Like tossing bones (they used vertebrae in the 17th century), dice, or maybe a gaming token for keeping score. That at least is *possible*. The knitting simply isn’t.
I remember doing something similar with an empty wooden spool, 4 nails, a needle and yarn. Wrap the yarn to the outside of that ball, lift the stitch up and over the yarn. Much faster.
I really love how she still hearts the comments
kinda Anastasia lol thanks! It’s my only video and I keep getting views and I wonder why and where it’s going!
@@ChertineP someone wrote a post on tumblr about it, and people are still sharing it around the net. That's how I found it - the screenshot of it was in my Instagram recommended c:
This is why when an archeologist says "It is for religious purposes", I interpret it to mean "I have no idea what it is for. I've spent my entire adult life in the university, never actually doing anything that might qualify me to know what these kind of objects would be used for".
Then that explains it. So much time in university of who knows, and you still don’t have a clue.
Except that none of the samples ever found have any wear on them, which is what makes them perplexing for what they were 'used' for
One of the things forgotten is some of these also had wax on them which would be used in weaving, not knitting per se. Such textiles have been found dating back to at the very least 1500 BCE and would be made of untreated natural wool fibers between 1-2 mm and the wax made from animal fats and bee hives would have helped keep the woolen yarn fibers uniform and reduced friction. The groves are missing on this example and where there to help prevent slipping between the nodes on the edges. They were not Roman.
That is one way of looking at it. It all depends on who you are and how you think. It could be the first Magic 8 ball, Metal Lego piece, floating Phantasm spike ball, staff head piece, different types of jewels to add then roll like dice, weapon, pet toy, mathematics calculator, puzzle, creates a black hole or just a piece of metal that someone made artwork to express themself.
The Romans obviously had a lot of time literally on their hands 😂
Brilliant to see how mysterious objects are just everyday tools for the time.
So why does it have 12 sides when you only need one side to knit? I don't think it's a Roman glove knitter.
I was looking for aplce when this Roman dodecahedron shape came into my view. My intution says in my mind that its for sewing, hanging like a toggle, it has multiple uses, but sewing is hte main thing to slide toggles for like orman blinds, something to do with toggles, under naalysis your glove makes sense the extra ball nubs would allow for joint/ and knuckle tying.
The simplest explanation is usually the correct one
What is the simplest explanation for these, though?
Romans using this to knit would not be the simplest explanation - knitting was not practiced in Ancient Rome. Knitting is a medieval invention.
i wish i could be there to see future historians find those circular automatic knitting looms and claim they were for "magical purposes" lollll
This device was not used for knitting. Knitting is a medieval invention. The fact that this person was able to knit something using it is really cool and creative, but Romans did not knit - especially in the way demonstrated here (spool knitting isn’t even until 15th century). Romans produced their textiles using weaving and Nålebinding, which are very different techniques.
Maybe the reason this device was found in northern countries was because gloves were needed mostly in such areas. Maybe it was a do it yourself knitting device, maybe the Roman army didn't supply gloves and so the Romans needed something to help them make their own.
I'm not a knitter, but it seems to me that the size of the finger tube would be set by the number of stitches in the circle, and 6 sides is always going to end up with essentially the same size tube if you use the same size yarn and same stitch.
When I was a kid there was a toy. It was a tube woven of flexible fibers that we called a “Chinese finger trap”. Pulling on it caused the tube to contract in diameter until you couldn’t get your fingers out. This is how drawing a knitted tube through a smaller hole would work.
A size E or F crochet hook would work better. Great idea for use of this article! It takes a crafter to figure it out! GO GIRL!! lol!!
Since many were found with Roman coins I’m wondering, if this wasn’t a coin gauge. To count coins by size and stacking within the same size space or to check coins for counterfeit coinage.
Were the Roman soldiers paid in coin? Image the pay master with stacks of coins of varying denominations. He quickly can grab the amount that each grade of soldier is paid and slide it across the table into each soldiers hand or purse without counting and the soldier can see he is not being cheated and they can quickly move onto the next soldiers pay. Like a calculator or abacus.
Now this is an interesting idea. Maybe this was for making coin rolls? The knitting/net fabric held the coins together, the gauged holes only allowed the proper coins through?
Roman coins weren't always consistent in size like today's are (also not including the intentional changes in size/shape a lot of modern tender coins have been through).
The Roman denarius coin, for example, was minted for about 400 years and varied in size over that time, from around 17mm to 22mm.
A truly excellent and insightful video! Nice work.
Here via Tom Metcalfe/Mental Floss, commenting partially for the algorithm but partially because I've never seen anyone actually demonstrate how these could be used like this before, too! I'd wondered if these were meant to be some kind of distaff core or turkish-spindle-style way of arranging a ball of yarn as it was spun, given one was found as part of a woman's grave goods with what I've seen described as "an ivory staff" very nearby, but this is a pretty solid argument for ancient Roman knitting techniques. Thank you!
It’s used for navigating at night using the stars. Alight with Sirius and with the circles, you can find your latitude and longitude.
I highly reckon this was its actual purpose in the main.
What?
Knitting was not invented until the Middle Ages. This is cool and creative, but Romans did not knit.
Hello ChertineP. I'm amazed how good that looked. It clearly needs to be in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing. Knitting the fingers together is a bit tricky to describe but I'll try in another post. For the rest of the glove I just used the studs that went around the outside of the fingers. You have to know how much yarn to use though because you can't gauge what shape it will be until it's off so it would be trial and error at first. My video is of my first attempt so it was a bit small.
After knitting one finger I needed to do a kind of false cast off from the two pegs needed for the next finger so that they were free. I did this using a couple of inches of different coloured yarn so it was easy to see. I threaded it through the loops to capture the stitches but so that when I'd finished the next finger it was easy to find the loops again and put them back on the pegs. Then I could simply pull the different colour yarn out and the first finger was ready to knit again. Then I just went around the second finger a few more times so that the fingers were knitted together - the first time around you have to pull the two loops over for the shared pegs. It seemed to join well on the occasions I got it right, but there's definitely a right and a wrong way as I did get it wrong in places.
To make the rest of the glove you just have to imagine it all laid out flat. With all fingers knitted, I used a fresh piece of yarn starting at the top peg between the little finger (pinkie in the US?) and thumb then down one vertically, anti-clockwise zig-zagging over 9 pegs. Then you need to go back up but you cant join up just yet so you have to go to the one to the right of where you started and then anticlockwise around the top. And then repeat for around 6 yards of yarn.
I'm certain there is a right way to do it, and my way probably isn't it, but it will take some experimentation and patience to get it right. Good luck!
THE HISTORY CHANNEL CALLED IT A SURVEYING TOOL, LMFAO!! I NEARLY FAINTED.
We don't know what it was.
So?
Why do you consider their explanation stupider than this one?
@@frontenac5083 presumably the History Channel (which admittedly is a pretty dreadful source of information for anything historical/archeological) told them it was a surveying tool, and a friendly-looking person on RUclips showed them a nice video where they used it to knit something.
Course the reality is neither of those things is a credible source if we're talking historical information.
The first time I saw one of these was in a meme about how we have no idea what these are. I took one look and thought “I bet it’s for knitting” it looks like a super complex version of my moms crochet tools
Did you see the video from knitter Amy Gaines. She saw a Roman gold necklace rope at the Met and theorized she could create one using wire and wooden dowels pushed through the various holes to make different thicknesses. The technique was carried Viking knitting. It worked.
Can you please continue to experient with the roman dodecahedron? Have you discover more ways to use it (e.g. knitting)? Your hypothesis is logical and practical.
Not a believer. Five stitches around any finger makes a very open glove- worse on big fingers. A knitting Nancy is easy to make from wood and quite functional, flat, and easier to carry. Making one of these on a forge is a serious undertaking. I've tried it. Whatever they were they had to either handle a great amount of force, or were a powerful symbol of the metal worker's ability. I've been working on the puzzle for 50 years. Had one on my desk at work for 30 years sounding out anybody who would discuss them. I'm a serious engineer and love a good puzzle.
I've just seen a recent video that may change your mind about this device, in it a lady who is also a knitter/crocheter used one to demonstrate the making of wire chain like bracelet which she referred to as a "viking" or Celtic bracelet braid. Apparently she made the connection after seeing Roman jewelry in the form of gold wire braided into a necklace, the varying hole sizes being used to pull the glove finger like tube of braided wire through which caused the links to become ever smaller and tighter. I must say it was very convincing, she thought she had worked out the answer but now I've seen this video I realise that this will idea has been through a period of evolution for roughly ten years or so.
and the people in ancient rome who worked on the forges were professionals who did that every day of their life. how often do you work on a forge?
a balletic pointe shoe is a complicated and difficult thing to make, but that doesn't make it a 'powerful symbol of the shoemaker's ability'
I agree, these were not made for knitting gloves with yarn.
I might bite that they were made to braid wire jewelry, or something made of twisted wire, but they did not forge knitting tools I’m certain.
They weren’t even forging iron nails at this point in history, it was a commodity, iron wasn’t in every home, they wouldn’t have using it for something women had been doing without iron for millennia. I don’t buy it.
Women are genius, we can find a few branches and knit a parka, we can turn anything into a tool, so I’m not surprised women can knit with them.
I’m curious if anyone has asked AI what they are.
As an engineer myself, "great force" can mean working load over time. Also, such devices might have been passed down for generations. Durability has many forms.
Also, making 10 separate devices, means they get lost, especially with small children running around. Building them into one, compact, and interesting shape, has usefulness.
I'd also guess there were many highly intelligent, mathematical minded mothers, who needed intellectual stimulation while they sat knitting and nursing. Probably a woman discovered this isotropic geometry.
In addition, as a woman engineer, I've seen men don't take women's work seriously, and this can make men blind to the requirements of that work. (And it makes my blood boil when it seems like bias is at play.)
It kinda reminds me of the Reddit thread discussing the bone with 27 marks cut into it, and men saying there's no way it was used as a period counter.
A good read is _The Descent of Woman_ one thesis of which is that male bias in anthropology dramatically twists the facts to fit a male-centered view of the world. It was a formative book in my youth.
As a woman, I still don't buy it. Women weren't bored while doing their textile work because they did it communally, as you can read scenes of in ancient Greek and Roman literature, or see visually represented in ancient artwork, and as you can witness in any agricultural society. Groups of women and children would be sitting around chatting, telling stories, or playing verbal games. If you've ever been to a sewing bee or a tamale making party, that's the vibe. Even if a woman happened to be working alone for whatever reason, a geometrical doohickey would hardly keep her amused for more than fifteen seconds. Once you've seen it, you've seen it, you know?
We tend to impose our own cultural norms onto other cultures, but the idea of the "nuclear family" is quite new. Almost never in the ancient world (or even 100 years ago) would it be a case of a lonely, bored housewife sitting around nursing a baby and knitting by herself. Housewives as we think of them (like June Cleaver) were unheard of in most periods of history. Before industrialization, the home was the center of production. All sorts of labor were constantly going on in and around the house, and the "women's work" would have involved the wife, the kids, the grandma, the maiden or widowed aunts, the cousins, the second cousins, the servants/slaves, the neighbors, and any female visitors. Our lonely, isolated modern lifestyles would look like insanity and probably torture to those socially integrated societies.
These dodecahedron thingies are apparently found in military settings mainly, anyway. I wonder if they could be a tool for checking the straightness of the shafts for arrows and spears? If the holes on opposite sides are of equal diameter, this could make sense. If your arrows aren't straight, you can't aim them accurately. But that theory doesn't explain the little knobs, so I'm not wedded to it.
Did they have yarn that was that size back then? Its a very good theory but a few things that make no sense is these are often found in hoards of coins suggesting they were considered valuable. They also usually have absolutely no wear whatsoever. If someone was using these to make tons of gloves they would be worn. They would have also been EXTREMELY difficult to manufacture. If they were just fancy looms why not just make them of wood. Also this type of weaving wasn't done until much later in the roman empire and these are typically found in periods predating that.
Funny, your very sensible, knowledgeable and intelligent comment hasn't been given a "heart badge" by the person in charge of this channel...!
Maybe try something like: "That's it, you solved it (despite having no clue and presenting a laughingly foolish explanation), well done you!"?
The kitting idea also fails to explain the purpose of similar objects that have been found without the holes. But, once again, that doesn't fit into the "scientists dumb nice kitting channel on RUclips smart" idea that a lot of people have become very invested in. It's really just "it was cold today where I lived, so much for global warming" for a different demographic.
You don't need the device for the rest of the glove. Just make a single piece and wrap it halfway. Add fingers to the top and a thumb on the side at the seam.
You could do similar with the fingers, though.
Thank you for responding I plan to order one. I've tried loom knitting before this seems like a sensible use to me. I love multitools. That's what I think the dodeca are it's up to us to figure out all the uses.
Another possibility: This may have held a ball of linen thread underwater to soften it as it was spooled out into a loom. There are archeological finds with shallow bowls with a hook or ring in the bottom. The dig people have proposed that this was to hold the linen thread in water, with the end through the ring or hook. That way, if you tug on the end of the thread, the ball remains in the water and rotates to moisten the whole ball from the outside in.
A 10g ball.of linen wouldnt be very useful .
I'm not sure how they did soften linen back then, but these days, for hand knitted items at least, it would be done after the item was completed because it tends to be easier/more efficient.
RUclips showing me this video in 2024... Thank you, youtube.
The Bronze Dodecahedrons are mass produced toy brainteasers similar to Rubics Cube. Each face had a five sided chip with symbols or some such that pivoted round the axis of each hole the idea being to match up the symbol of one side of the chips face with same symbol of neighboring chip face, all faces ending up having matching symbols on all sides. Different size holes as 'color coding' so MASS manufacture can know which chip goes into which face of the dodecahedron. Each axle was cotter-pinned from inside or more likely 'peened' mushroomed hammered accessing from opposite end hole. Final piece held in place by offset tab through keyhole hole. (various size holes also allows for use of axle material that comes in non uniform diameters [as harvested].) - In the end like in modern times, most of them got trashed after getting bored with and recycled for their bronze and those that didn't get recycled over time the biodegradable parts dissolved away leaving the bronze skeleton.
Just a guess or where are you getting this from?
@@PhilRewa From my own deductive reasoning.
That doesn’t explain why they were only found in the north though
@@aperson325 The question is What are they. The question is NOT why in the north. Asked and answered.
Not sure if this is originally for knitting. It looks more like a connecting piece to mount military tents. The holes take wooden sticks to build the tent structure from the center and get the shape and height of the tent. The little fixing points allow to fix the tent tissue on the centered structure to avoid the tissue flying away (wind), keeping it in the exact position. The metal structure underlines a mounting purpose.
..and appearantly it can also be used for knitting... some kind of "ancient leatherman"
a quick search would show that we pretty much know how the tents were built and with what tools,plus with the numbers needed for an encampment i'm sure more would have been found.
these are found where you would want gloves for sure. they aren't found everywhere you would want a tent.
If it was used for tents I think many more would have been found. I'm sticking with the glove theory.
I guess the shape and hole sizes should allow to knit all 5 fingers in one piece, just don't get the knitted finger off, start knitting in a neihbouring hole- you should get the 5 fingers interconnected in a shape of approximately relaxed hand shape.
Makes sense. Our ancestors weren't completely stupid. They wanted to free up time to do more enjoyable activities as well.
Roman: "....why are they knitting with one of our multi-size cupholders?"
is the distance between the pegs the same for each side? if it's supposed to be for knitting, why would there only be about 200 of them and only in one section of the world? hmm...
The knitting theory is defeated by the existence of an icosahedron with many tiny holes (see Wikipedia). It's not a candlestick, for similar reasons. Best guess is that it's a flower-arranging artefact for supporting smaller or larger bunches of flower stems (or single stalks in the case of the icosahedron). It needed to be heavy. It needed not to rust.
While the knitting is interesting, since there are five pegs on each side they will, using the same yarn, all make the same size tube! Now, each side has a different size hole, this leads me to believe it a candle holder that accommodates whatever size taper type, dipped, candle you have. Since rhe pegs are all similarly placed, there may have been a base it sat in to catch drips for reuse. More candles, more heat. OR maybe with a tray it sealed different sizes of maultache, pierogi, ravioli, etc. Just a thought.
You are working it like a Knitting Nancy to make a tube. This method used the fibre tubing sewn in a coil to make rugs.
Instead of taking the "fingers" off the dodecahedron why not stitch them together while they are on their still, you would only have to stitch the back hand side of the glove on. you could make it adjustable. Just curious if that would work?
That’s a super interesting idea, I’m planning on trying to get my hands on one in the future so I’ll have to keep this in mind and try it.
I was going to say the same and thought I'd just check down the comments to make sure I wasn't repeating.
And even knit a hand part around them all.
The mystery of what these dodecahedron.were used for endured for CENTURIES....WOW... ORIGINALLY found in Roman graves.... Thanks..(skol MINNESOTA VIKINGS)
I suspect it could be used for metal knitting for an early prototype of chainmail gloves. That would make it many hundreds of years in advance of medieval chainmail. Every year people are discovery that ancient man was far more advanced & travelled far greater than 1st believed.
I would not be at all surprised if this were used for glove knitting AND tent holding AND several other uses. This seems like a form with many uses, like a roman smartphone lol
They are candle holders for different sized candles.
The simple solution is usually correct.
Gallo-Roman Dodecahedrons are only found in the North of the Empire, England, France and Germany etc. - the cold parts where gloves would be handy 😂. Candles were used throughout the Empire. The wax may just come the lost wax casting process.
@@agamemnonhatredIt gets very cold in Italy, especially in the mountains. So I don't think it was temperature related.
Perhaps the largest hole, or even a larger dodecahedron, could be used to "knit" the hand part of the glove?
This is very, VERY interesting! Thanks
Thanks tumblr! good to see what the culmination of 4 years studying archaeology will be... for a friend of course.
Hey, can you post a link? I like to see who/what is linking to this 8 year-old video. Thanks!
I still don’t understand how the size of the holes effects the size of the glove fingers. It’s the knobs that determine the size. So what’s the point?
Or is it a place holder so you know what finger you are working on?
It wasn’t used for knitting. Knitting was not invented until the Middle Ages.
This is glorious. Crocheting hoops are great way to learn crocheting, and this is the first ever made!! ♥ Thank you for sharing this.
You've only used one side of the dodecahedron, as a ring. The 11 other sides are just getting in the way. If the Romans wanted a ring they could make a ring, so this can't be what the dodecahedron was for (but still a great skill I wish I could do it!).
Why, why, why year after year these devices are discovered and still they say it's a mystery ? Smart lady ! CASE CLOSED, MYSTERY SOLVED !
Because it still is a mystery. The fact remains that we still don't know what they were used for. And no, it probably wasn't for making gloves - these predate the first known record of modern knitting by something like a millennium, and we've found similar objects without holes in them.
So she is using this dodecahedron like you do any other spool knitting tool (most of them have 4 prongs). If you want the end tighter in the beginning put a weight on the lead thread in the beginning to maintain tension. Personally i prefer 2-Double pointed needles for making fingers on my gloves.