The Different Styles of Pop Punk (Ramonescore)
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- Опубликовано: 7 янв 2021
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I much prefer the ramones style pop punk sound to the neck deep/tssf kinda sound. I think it has much more staying power than that stuff
That's an interesting view. In my opinion, the Ramones style is much more stripped back and candid, by some standards "rough" or "sloppy", but on that note, Punk has always had a touch of that. I could see how you could have the idea that music that intentionally flies in the face of convention in favor for a rough cut sound to make a specific statement has more staying power than the music that was inspired by the rough cut music, kept some of the stylistic and performance elements but took all the production, riffs, and arrangement to the next level.
After all, it makes sense to make up our mind here, right? If you want to be dream theater just do it, and get respect. But if you want to be the Ramones and make a statement then do that. But somehow trying to take the elements of Ramones you like and amp the music up to a new level might just leave people frustrated that you still seem fascinated with the intonation of punk singing or distortion guitar but aren't minimalist enough to be making any sort of strong musical statement in either category- neither technically perfect to those who care, nor stripped back enough for those who desire it, but landing somewhere inbetween.
But from another view, one could think that music that is obviously loosely performed, even intentionally, will eventually lose out to music that is tightly performed, because eventually people can and will forget the statement anyone was trying to make, and since music IS judged by it's sonic quality by most people, rough Punk is destined for obscurity.
Then again, a band like Neck Deep who might be fascinated with a punk vocal intonation but that takes the music to the next level might be even less remembered because though it takes a lot of the music to a great seriousness of performance, it also remains stuck and captivated by it's own fascinations.
So what I am saying is that at least the Ramones have a statement on their side. Neck Deep has enough refinement to advance the performance standard but still remains fascinated with the punk aesthetic. Which means they don't have a "minimalist music with a break down the system statement" thing, they don't have crystal clear sound like a classical musician or pop rock might desire, so they seem to be alienating groups on both sides- too complex for the punkers, too punk for the complexity fans or the pro-technique fans.
That said, music isn't bound by one opinion or statement. A lack of statement becomes it's own statement and a sort of well-polished, clean-toed rebellion could be the anthem cry of angsty Catholic school children. Who is to say Neck Deep or ADTR do not have THEIR own musical statement by taking the Ramones and turning then into traditionally stadium worthy tunes? Sure, maybe ADTR doesn't have as strong of a stylistic conviction as the Ramones did, which could be viewed as something weakening ADTR's effectiveness, but music is opinions, and effectiveness is more based on the current state and progress of the scene, promotion, and sometimes production quality. I can sit here and say Neck Deep's alienating both parties by not being normal enough for rock fans, or rough enough for Punk fans, but maybe they're part of a new movement they aren't alienating, including myself. They sell at least thousands of albums, after all. So someone likes it. We forget that staying power has a lot more to do with changing with the times than staying the same. At least, some think it does. Others say the opposite. That a band must be true to itself to remain relevant, but real. Perhaps both are true.
Whatever music created, however illogical, can become a breed of it's own, desired for it's own inherent qualities, whether or not it makes any logical sense or makes as pure a statement as another type. Managing to be right in the pocket of what people want, yet innovative in a palatable way is an incredibly difficult task, no matter what generation you belong to.
What I am really saying is that anything can become a statement, no matter how illogical it seems, and that in music the youth goes through phases in what they desire. Bands typically want to be in the space of what the current scene is asking for, yet we all know a wishy-washy band that changes styles at the drop of a hat is not always successful.
But then again, no band is always successful. And changing your style to go right along with the current market is one way to ensure you will always sound relevant- even if the new style seems silly to you.
People do crave a talented musical experience, but they also crave an honest and relatable one. That is one thing I have learned. Emo and Punk would not succeed if that wasn't the case. Because relatable and honest is more important than well-performed to some people. And yet somehow the modern production machine keeps making bands' studio performances have a higher and higher standard. Like I'll talk about in a bit, we could hit the equivalent of the grunge phenomenon for Pop Punk. Hair Metal was HUGE. Then things shot back to stripped down arrangements and quick and dirty rough takes, live recorded drum sounds, etc... We could see Pop Punk do the same if the production machine ever gets too big, which right now, it is really huge...
But anyway, like I was getting around to saying, you or I are really not qualified to judge (with certainty) a band's statement or staying power. Staying power is some strange mix between consistency, changing with the times, promotion, and innovation. To think that one statement of minimalism is timeless, while another statement of professionalism with a candid Punk touch is not, is more speculative than anything else. No statement is truly timeless, but which one has more staying power? Well, that is the question we can only speculate on and that time will answer.
Anything can become a statement, simply by virtue of creating a work of art.
I don't think it's totally fair to say a band like ADTR has less staying power than the Ramones, (Adtr's most recent album notably excluded......) but as evidenced, one can formulate a strong argument for both bands, or types of Punk bands, as the case may be.
It's very hard to tell which view is correct, here. In truth, it would seem both have relatively little staying power for the decades to come. I think of how 40s music is viewed today, and wonder if these punk songs will sound similar in the coming decades, or how 70's Rock bands all sound like Led Zepplin-ey blues or Southern Rock, and how that was almost "the scene" back then.
Music often slowly dies with the generation that heralded and beloved it in it's heyday. What survives is a generalized hodgepodge of the most famous, large players in each of the many genres, with a loose narrative, along with a stripped back but still seemingly infinite library of the other players, big and small. The digital age has championed a new possibility- the possibility that in 4 decades, the majority of the music we have today will still exist.
We can debate who has the most staying power for days and days, but it seems kind of like a frivolous argument. Neither of us can see what lays in the future, so we may as well give credit where credit is due, and like what we like. I prefer bands that took the Ramones concept to the next level, in some way or another. But I find the Ramones fun, energetic and lovable. The basics of music I have come to love. And I expect that from them, and I would never ask them to change. I must admit that their ethos and music seems to live on with remarkable resiliency. But I have always felt that many bands that came after them are increasingly more complex and well-performed. On that note, I recognize that that is not what Punk is all about, anyway. And that the Ramones chose to sound the way they did because they wanted to. And that is totally okay. After all, who wants to work to sound like something they don't really care for?
So I would say I am pleased to listen to both styles typically.
I foresee an ebb and flow of complexity in the Punk music. Punk got started as tearing down the complexity of Rock. I think once Pop Punk reaches a head, where the market is completely saturated with incredibly well-performed and produced Pop Punk bands that are mainstream popular, which seems like something we could see, soon, that we will eventually see the return to stripped down Punk in the mainstream, like the Ramones. Rock music gets built up to get torn down, and vice versa. I will not be surprised if my breed of Pop Punk becomes passè in the coming decades for a while. Blessings!
I like the more ramone-sey type of pop punk bands like screeching weasel, the queers, the lillingtons, riverdales and even the more modern ones like teenage bottlerocket, masked intruder, and the bombpops than bands like nfg, neckdeep, tssf, etc. Ramonescore band just sounds more energetic, fun, and doesnt take themselves too seriously unlike the emo-like modern pop punk bands today.
Good bands
Great video, started watching your channel around the Riot Fest 2021 headliner video and you've put me onto some of my favorite records of recent memory. Keep up the great work!
Thanks so much!
Thank you for this video. I discovered a few cool bands grace to you!
Great review ! Just discovered Light Years ! Great band !
Thanks for checking out my stuff!
Another term used for "ramonescore" was "bubblegum punk", specially down here in Brazil (on that note, I highly recommend a band called Carbona). It's funny how dudes make up terms so they don't have to admit they like a pop punk band, same with most orgcore. Great vid, as always I'm late as fuck.
Carbona rules!
It sounds to me like the ramonescore bands are like stripped back punk songs with some poppy beach boys type melodies whereas the mainstream pop punk and modern scene pop punk bands write and arrange their songs to be pop songs at their core and then have a punk style and influence put over it. Neither of those are bad things I love pop punk in all forms. What I'm trying to say in a nutshell is
Ramonescore - punk as a priority in the music and thought process, super simple and stripped back.
Mainstream - pop at the core with the punk elements, usually a little bit more complex than ramonescore.
Both are awesome (I do prefer mainstream tho)
I love the video and discussion. There is definitely a lot of deliberation over where certain genres end and others begin. I was just commenting on something similar to this, the overlap between the Emo and Pop Punk genres, and how the terms are used interchangeably by many people, yet have insinuations that can help define the genres slightly more clearly.
For instance, Senses Fail could be called Emo and Pop Punk. However calling Blink 182 "Emo" doesn't sound quite right.
However, I would also expect anyone who likes Senses Fail to also dig Blink, because they are in a similar overall category of Rock. So in that sense, it would make sense to call them by the same subgenre.
Black Veil Brides seems definitely Emo.
Along with Silverstein and Funereal for a Friend.
And calling them Pop Punk seems strange yet I wouldn't be too surprised to hear it.
It's almost as if Pop Punk is typical major and bright and Emo is typically minor and serious or even sad.
However they cross over with nearly every band that has emotionally honest lyrics.
Then some people use the term Emo to EXCLUSIVELY refer to bands that are better referred to as "Midwest Emo". You probably already know what I mean, clean, jangly guitars with tapping riffs and note trills, not sure of any examples, except maybe Real Friends and some band with Baseball in the name I think? Hahahaha. Fill me in.
Do you think you should do a video on that topic? I find the discussion surrounding defining the subgenres fascinating. The truth is, every band is unique, and so every person's idea of what a subgenre "IS" is VERY unique based on individual past musical experiences and preferences. It's why we have or had so many Heavy Metal elitists who at times seem their only issue with new heavy music was that it was referred to as "metal" instead of something else, hence the creation of subgenres in the first place, so every one can have a term that's more specific.
Meanwhile people who don't want more specific terms or who consider themselves to be on the outside looking in on genres like Pop Punk in the first place just use Pop Punk, or even Punk or perhaps worst of all, just "Metal" to refer to all music with loud distortion guitar.
And it calls to mind how similar yet different much of this music can be. Once you throw in Metalcore and Hardcore to the mix, things get really muddy because ADTR is pop punk but they might have a song that's practically metalcore- and any song with a chugging breakdown and pedal point minor key riffs might be consider metalcore, yet metalcore calls to mind a whole different breed of heavy bands like As I Lay Dying, Killswitch Engage...
And is there one correct view on what defines these subgenres? Nearly all of them become their own kind of blanket term in some way. I have an idea of what each one is, yes, but does that make my idea the only right one? Does it really make sense for a band to become a different (sub)genre just because they play in the major key or have a breakdown or DON'T have a breakdown?
We're all looking for the perfect way to describe music in perfect detail without simply reproducing the aural experience for someone else.
Anyway, this got to be too long. But yeah, I think a discussion on subgenres or comparing Emo and Pop Punk would be endlessly awesome. And apologies if you already did something like that, I'm kinda new to just channel, but I just subscribed. :)
Most bands cross over genres and every band I talk about is under the 'Alternative Music' label but with pop punk and POP PUNK bands I wanted to make a video about it because bands within that label had 2 groups within them.
Thanks for the comment and thanks for watching!
@@NeverNormal That makes sense. Sometimes I feel like there might even be three because Blink 182 inspired bands are such a different animal compared to the tightly produced bands like Crown the Empire or ADTR. (I ignore ADTR's most recent album, which is very well produced, but I am still greatly unsettled by the style. 😂😂).
But at some point it can kind of get crazy with the sub division. It's very interesting, though, because before this vid, I had never thought of the Ramones as Pop Punk, but when I think about it, what else would they be called? I guess at that point I figured it was just "punk". But in some respect they are friendlier and more radio friendly than your average noisy punk band, so I guess that's the pop part hahaha. They are definitely an entirely different school of Pop Punk that has it's own fans along with an entirely different set of bands they inspired. More similar than different to the other pop punk, but still different enough to have a separate musical camp hahaha.
I think there is some crossover between the two factions, specifically within that orgcore/melodic hardcore corner of the scene. Bands like Off With Their Heads, Polar Bear Club, and The Menzingers don't necessarily fit either of those descriptions sonically, but draw fans from both of those scenes
Yup, I remember the Menzingers being thrown into the 2010's pop punk revival at the time.
@@NeverNormal true although they started off on Red Scare with all those bands you mentioned like Teenage Bottlerocket so in many ways they're the perfect middle ground
Another great vid. The only album you mentioned that I don’t think is pop punk is Blink’s self titled. I feel like a lot of people label it pop punk because it’s Blink. But I’d categorize it more as alternative or progressive. Maybe we need a Prog Pop Punk category. I’d agree that album would fit in there.
There's some clear pop punk moments for sure. Here's Your Letter is one of their best
I believe Paramore and bands that share their sound is another category of pop punk than State Champs or Bompops. Paramore is like pop punk mixed with alt rock. Some bands are more pop than punk than punk than pop. Some are easycore.
I'm having a hard time personally calling those Ramones flavored pop punk bands pop punk
no doubt the Ramones had a huge influence in the begining of pop punk but it was never their style that lead the genre later on, it was really The Descendants who laid the groundwork for what pop punk would be like in years to come, but the Ramones bands always felt like to much punk to be pop punk, I really assosiated those bands more with the 90s skate punk scene like NOFX or Lagwagon, theres a reason you see bands like The Bombpops on stages like Punk In Drublic on Slam Dunk, cause those band are really similar in sound and their fanbase reflect it
no doubt there are a huge amounts of similarities in the 2 scenes but you know punks when it comes to music we tend to focus on our differences over than our similarities
That's kinda why I made the video, to see what everyone else thought.
Main conclusion is it's all very similar like you said.
The bands I grew up with introduce me to punk. Green Day, Sum 41, Avril Lavigne, Blink 182. But glad it came during this pandemic with MGK, & Lill Huddy. But they are not like the legends. Ramones started punk. Green Day made punk mainstream.
I turned 30 this year and have been getting more into RamonesCore and skate punk in general. Still listen to Neck Deep side but also RamonesCore. I have kinda gotten bored of the big mainstream pop punk like Blink and Paramore. Gotten overplayed for me
Thanks for watching!
are you jamie rhoden
edit: you dont look anything like him like i thought originally this is people with glasses moment
lol if only you could see this email I got about title fight....
The story so far ripped their name off of dan from 88 fingers other band original story so far ep on initial records.
They took it from a new found glory song called the story so far
@@alexdjents6145 nope.... try again
@@HoldaflametothisThey took it off the new found glory song sorry you were misled