You know what was the best part of this? When the ATC made the correction, he quickly and calmly handled the situation, explained what the procedure was, and that was it. No berating the pilots after or any shaming or venting, just got back to calmly, safely fixing the situation. For what it's worth, the Sun Country pilots who made the mistake also didn't try to make any excuses or become emotional. Mistake was made, they immediately followed the instructions to correct the mistake, and accepted the fact that they would have to answer for it instead of making excuses.
Without doxxing myself I'm a controller very familiar with this operation. Great job by the departure controller who did his job perfectly by the book here. #1 issue traffic/safety alerts, then separate them. It's pretty clear sun country f'd this one up pretty bad. This is some of the busiest airspace in the world at LAX. Everyone needs to be at the top of their game. ATIS states simultaneous parallel instrument departures happening at all times. Pilots must be vigilant and aware of this!
You know this better than anyone, but this is hardly a rare procedure for any LAX Part 121 pilots. The fact that not one, but two pilots up front hadn't visualized the departure, planning to fly straight after KLIPPR until being told otherwise is truly stunning and worthy of an investigation on its own. How was FMS setup? Who initiated the turn? The FMS should've halted any sequencing after KLIPPR and shown a discontinuity. The only way it would've self-sequenced to the next waypoint is if someone either deleted the discontinuity or manually selected the next point. The details of HOW this happened on the pilot side are critical and should be shared so that every training department can learn. Thank GOODNESS the 25L has the diverging heading...that at least gave them a lateral buffer to work with otherwise this could've been a mess. Side note, curious if either aircraft got an RA. That could've been interesting as the pilots would then have to comply with the RA and NOT ATC's instructions from what I understand (I'm part 91 single engine piston with a parking brake, let alone this level of TCAS).
I am a retired United pilot who flew into LAX hundreds of times and loved working with their awesome air traffic controllers like you. I even had a friend who worked SOCAL and would give him a headsup when I spoke to him on the radio when I was landing at LAX. Your viewpoint is spot on. Professionalism in my former profession is taking some huge hits thanks to a new generation of pilots, but I don't see the same thing happening in your profession.
Excellent recovery by all involved. ATC separated first, then calmly and briefly explained what pilots did wrong, pilots acknowledged, took their licks without arguing. When time allowed they issued the number. Bad screwup to start off, but everyone swallowed their pride and figured out how to fix.
@@TomNimitz Good catch. "Affirm -BREAK- Full Callsign + Instruction" could've been clearer but feels nit-picky - no similar sounding callsign on frequency and the one taking the instruction has a flight number no where near that. The 428 seemed locked in on hearing what they were expecting no matter what
I just came to comment on that! The vid doesn't show if 428 realized the climb was for UAL, or if he merrily went to 12000' anyway. If so, he double f'd up...
I noticed as well, and good on United for asking the controller "Do you want us to stay at 5000...". they knew the call was for them, but didn't want to add more noise. SCX had been cleared to 12000 at 0:49, they were probably a bit flustered and didn't catch that the call was not intended for them, but I guess the controller didn't want to add more frustration to an already bad day.
@@uniqueurl in this case? remedial training for both pilots in the crew. the pilot flying did the mistake, but the pilot monitoring didn't catch it either. the other part I don't know, but it goes up to all the way of a so called 709 ride, where the FAA will basically retest you.
Wow. Strong work. Again, I can't imagine the formula that gives rise to The Air Traffic Controller - a breed of superhuman. It's one of those skills that cannot be taught. You either have the natural talent, or you don't. Bravo ! You pilots and controllers are the coolest cats out there. The flying public thanks you, and are lucky to have you ;-)
I wonder if Sun country put that departure in there without a discontinuity. If you load up that departure it leaves you on a heading of 251 after FABRA. It won’t turn you until you put in direct. They must have closed up that discontinuity before departure and left it on nav. That’s just a rookie mistake.
didn't see this prior to writing my reply, didn't mean to echo so much of it. I am really curious as to how they got themselves in this state from an FMS standpoint. Someone took action to make it happen, the jet wouldn't have done it on its own.
@@coma13794 I know that if you load up that departure in the FMS it leaves you on a heading of 251 after FABRA with a discontinuity. Even if you have NAV selected, like you should, the airplane won’t turn towards the next fix. So someone cleared the discontinuity or selected direct or used heading to turn the airplane. Clearly not understanding the language on the plate. I do not think this is the first time this has happened. They probably should revise the look of that plate and not allow pilots to believe that they should be following that dotted line.
Hey, Air Canada in California and it's not their fault for once. Also like the Sun Country deciding the 12000 call was for them right after copying the number.
In Sun Country’s defense, the controller didn’t use United’s full call sign so I can see how the 1912 part could’ve been missed on that climb to 12,000 call
The pilot successfully helped the ATC shake off all drowsiness and boost their alertness...It is truly impressive how calmly and quickly the ATC was able to respond
good work by the controller👏 we have to realize that there is a limit on the number of aircraft that can be reasonably handled, with safety in mind. I think we are about to exceed those boundaries, if we have not already 😔
Yeah, in this case though it is a SID, so if everybody just followed their FMS or whatever it probably should be fine. If isn't like they were all being vectored everywhere. That plane just had to follow its planned route. I'm pretty critical of the ATC being too aggressive lately, but this feels like one of the ways that ought to work. I'd be curious about in cockpit procedures. Was the correct route in the FMS? Were they using AP or FD? Was the route checked by both pilots?
I agree: my concern is not "How many aircraft can one controller manage" but rather "How many aircraft can share the same frequency during the high-voice-traffic takeoff-and-climb phase of flight?".
@@KennethAGrimm I think a lot could be done with modern digital communications, including digitally communicating clearance limits. An FMS/etc could alert if a clearance is about to be exceeded, and an ATC system could prevent conflicting clearances from being issued. Of course this would necessitate not issuing those clearances routinely. Digital communications for voice could allow full duplex or prioritization.
I do like how smoothly this was handled. Pilot made a slight misunderstanding of depature procedures. I'm sure all that will happen during the phone call is ATC will say 'you got that now'? Pilot: 'yup'!
Geez. This is one busy airspace !!! So many calls blocked, the controller having a huge workload, … imagine if there were two emergencies to handle at the same time in this situation!
What a busy audio, with lots of calls stepped on (was there also interference from another frequency being picked up by the receiver used for the recording?). I wondered why i didnt hear a turn ordered for Air Canada, but I figured that must have been it.
The Jepp ORCKA5 departure: "Climb on heading 251 degrees to 640, then climb direct to cross FABRA at or below 3000, then on heading 251 degrees or as assigned by ATC, EXPECT left turn to cross KLIPR at or above 10000" He's got some 'splainin to do.....
Excellent handling by ATC and all pilots including sun country. Sucks they got a number but it'll be a learning lesson for them. That being said they probably just followed the LNAV which will turn you to KLIPR if you remove the discontinuity which is what they did I think. What a bummer.
ATC handled this perfectly. LAX is such a crowded airspace you really have to pay attention, both as a pilot and as a controller. I also appreciate the pilot of SCX428 being receptive and apologetic instead of combative, we've seen too many pilots causing issues on frequency.
It’s possible the crew mistakenly made the “turn left heading 190” command given to AA801. The AA801 and SCX428 left turns are identical and begin at the same, exact time.
Happens all the time in aviation. The fact that they are still using AM simplex is just retarded. 90% of all comms could be handled by a digital paging system. No stepping on each other, no language barrier, no error.
Not very clear ones... For example, LSGG has a phrasing similar to "on ATC instruction, turn xxx" which would avoid any confusion for pilots not used to the airport.
I can fly just fine, but I was always terrible at those flight control games. I'd see one conflict and fixate on those to sort them out and next thing I know, two planes I didn't even know were on screen are crashing. While in ATC, you usually know planes are coming, you still have to keep your scan going when something is going wrong because the other traffic isn't stopping to give you time.
Flew this SID almost always when i am at LAX. On the FMS, when you load it. It will have DOCKR, then Vectors, then KIPLR. Someone must have deleted the vector part, which caused them to turn after Dockr. Spelling of fixes might not be exact.
@@hatpeach1 I hear you an agree. I am not a pilot but understanding how the system works is fascinating and knowing some of ins and outs helps comfort me and sometimes a seat mate what a go around is, holding foot checklist, etc.
Great job by ATC! And thank you for calling it a "near collision" instead of "near miss". I never did understand that term. They didn't "nearly miss"; they DID miss! What they did was nearly collided.
It's near, not nearly. Near-miss makes sense, nearly miss does not. The two words have different definitions. Near suggests proximity, not something avoided.
ATC gave heading to UAL1912 but never said climb. She verified heading. Later ATC asks UAL if they’re climbing. Sun Country acknowledges and climbs. ATC gives UAL1912 new heading. She asks if she should stay at 5000. ATC says negative, climb to 12000. Another miss for Sun Country there, ATC does not correct read back, UAL1912 apparently missed it, too, but she confirms with ATC then it gets straightened out. Chaotic moments all around the time of deviation. Goes to show how things can keep rippling out. Fortunately the system worked to catch it all.
Mid air collisions really suck don't they? Last night I just watched the documentary on the Cerritos Aeromexico mid air collision of August 1986, oh my god
It may sounds like another day at work for the ATC, but this was close to a disaster, I wonder what the Sun Country pilots were doing before the departure and the FMS setup?
Anyone know why LAX tower always says the departure before takeoff clearance? I’ve only flew there a couple times but it’s the only airport I’ve had where tower reminds you of your departure clearance before takeoff
I rent cars for business trips a lot more now. I know statistically I am safer in the air, but with all the close calls and parts flying off as of late, I believe those odds will soon be even. Great job by the ATC folks on this one.
Thats an oopsie for sure. Though that last bit with the controller was a bit confusing. The controller said affim to Sun Country 428 but with little pause went straight to United 1912 to climb to 12000..
LAX have great controllers, never had any issues flying into there or SFO for that matter. You just have to make sure you're down to where they want you. No constant descent profiles! JFK on the other hand...expect a bollocking from approach, tower and ground :D
@@ilbria5913 not true. ASAP program is to confess what you did and the FAA won't take action against your license. As long as it wasn't intentional. But the company will go to the FAA and say the punishment will be 2 hours in the sim covering these items. Or some sort of computer training lesson.
From what I’ve heard It’s usually the number of the controlling ATC facility and the pilots call on the ground, they then discuss the incident and what went wrong. I could be wrong though
I was going to ask how was it that DAL 1517 wasn't a problem, because it looks like it's turning into ACA 776, too, but listening back, it sounds like it was much higher than the others, going to 15000.
If I'm reading this correctly, the screen shows DAL1517 was at about 8000 feet (080) which is well above the others at around 3000 feet (030) at the time of the incident.
ATC very professional here. Much different controller I heard earlier this week in LAX.. comments were like he was talking with bag of marbles in his mouth. Pilots had to ask if they were "cleared to land" since could not understand him.
I am usually reassured by even near misses, because of the professionalism and safety points in place. But hearing all of these radio calls stepping on each other gives me a stomach ache. Too many planes in too small a place.
I agree. If the frequencies have been assigning in such a way that pilots and controllers are frequently stepping on each other, The FAA needs to re-examine those allocations. I suspect someone will respond "But... ...same runway... ...same airspace" OK, maybe that allocation needs to also be examined.
Whom ever made that SID is awesome! I would buy that guy a beer! I would also put money down he was in the military. He also drinks allot. This SID is cool!
Never have understood why the 4 departure lanes join up like that, sending two around to the north and two around to the south would significantly reduce the opportunity for conflict (at the cost of putting airliners over Santa Monica)
that would cause issues with the arrivals into LAX coming from the north, AND you still ultimately have a single file queue towards the transition. Fanning them out from LAX only to have them rejoin just east of LAX solves very little while causing it's own issues. The vectored segment is what allows the controller to get everyone sequenced by timing the turns to the south, then the east. It works wonderfully when pilots don't turn on their own.
The north airspace is extremely busy and complex due to high minimum altitudes (mountainous terrain), the downwind for LAX north complex, plus all the Van Nuys, Burbank, and Santa Monica traffic.
You know what was the best part of this? When the ATC made the correction, he quickly and calmly handled the situation, explained what the procedure was, and that was it. No berating the pilots after or any shaming or venting, just got back to calmly, safely fixing the situation. For what it's worth, the Sun Country pilots who made the mistake also didn't try to make any excuses or become emotional. Mistake was made, they immediately followed the instructions to correct the mistake, and accepted the fact that they would have to answer for it instead of making excuses.
Sounded to me like the pilot might have been expecting the number
Professional all around - great to hear!
If it had been Air Canada that screwed up, they'd be adding "sorry" at the end of every transmission until they left the airspace 😂
@@avrohomz4582 pilot knew they fucked up, so yea, they were expecting the number.
Had it been an east coast controller it definitely wouldn't have been handled the same
Calm and professional atc makes everything easier.
Without doxxing myself I'm a controller very familiar with this operation. Great job by the departure controller who did his job perfectly by the book here. #1 issue traffic/safety alerts, then separate them. It's pretty clear sun country f'd this one up pretty bad.
This is some of the busiest airspace in the world at LAX. Everyone needs to be at the top of their game. ATIS states simultaneous parallel instrument departures happening at all times. Pilots must be vigilant and aware of this!
Retired controller from ZAU. Yes very nice job by that controller.
I work for Flexjet and always taking 25l or R and RNAV to dockr. Never had a problem.
You know this better than anyone, but this is hardly a rare procedure for any LAX Part 121 pilots. The fact that not one, but two pilots up front hadn't visualized the departure, planning to fly straight after KLIPPR until being told otherwise is truly stunning and worthy of an investigation on its own. How was FMS setup? Who initiated the turn? The FMS should've halted any sequencing after KLIPPR and shown a discontinuity. The only way it would've self-sequenced to the next waypoint is if someone either deleted the discontinuity or manually selected the next point. The details of HOW this happened on the pilot side are critical and should be shared so that every training department can learn. Thank GOODNESS the 25L has the diverging heading...that at least gave them a lateral buffer to work with otherwise this could've been a mess.
Side note, curious if either aircraft got an RA. That could've been interesting as the pilots would then have to comply with the RA and NOT ATC's instructions from what I understand (I'm part 91 single engine piston with a parking brake, let alone this level of TCAS).
I am a retired United pilot who flew into LAX hundreds of times and loved working with their awesome air traffic controllers like you. I even had a friend who worked SOCAL and would give him a headsup when I spoke to him on the radio when I was landing at LAX. Your viewpoint is spot on. Professionalism in my former profession is taking some huge hits thanks to a new generation of pilots, but I don't see the same thing happening in your profession.
@@coma13794 I was just thinking that this could be a fatigue related incident.
At least it wasn't ATC this time. But what a busy air space.
Or Air Canada!
@@Ea-Nasir_Copper_Co I was like 50% expecting AC to turn right given what we've seen from them here over the past few years
@@Ea-Nasir_Copper_Co😂
Another one?!
Super busy airspace and a lot of crosstalk. The controller did an awesome job remaining cool and clear AND deal with a PD. Well done!
A single frequency for all that traffic, crazy
The crosstalk was due to the receiver
@@cheapercharlieiiinot a single frequency. Different controllers. Even the tower controllers weren’t the same.
Excellent recovery by all involved. ATC separated first, then calmly and briefly explained what pilots did wrong, pilots acknowledged, took their licks without arguing. When time allowed they issued the number. Bad screwup to start off, but everyone swallowed their pride and figured out how to fix.
SCX took the climb instruct at the end too before United came on to confirm
I was gonna say! Hear back, read back!
4:22 - "Affirm .. and ..." may have caused more confusion there.
@@TomNimitz Good catch. "Affirm -BREAK- Full Callsign + Instruction" could've been clearer but feels nit-picky - no similar sounding callsign on frequency and the one taking the instruction has a flight number no where near that. The 428 seemed locked in on hearing what they were expecting no matter what
I just came to comment on that! The vid doesn't show if 428 realized the climb was for UAL, or if he merrily went to 12000' anyway.
If so, he double f'd up...
I noticed as well, and good on United for asking the controller "Do you want us to stay at 5000...". they knew the call was for them, but didn't want to add more noise. SCX had been cleared to 12000 at 0:49, they were probably a bit flustered and didn't catch that the call was not intended for them, but I guess the controller didn't want to add more frustration to an already bad day.
Atc guy is a robot. Sees everything, reacts properly, and doesn't get emotional or frazzled
Sun Country barely turned before the controller already called it out. Amazing job. That's truly being on top of everything.
I think I know his voice from listening to liveatc. If I'm correct, he's like that all the time. He's doing a fantastic job.
ATC voice is so soothing
Was that possibly a subtile stress-induced tremble at 2:36? 😆
It would be interesting to have both ATC and pilot heart rate displayed on screen 🙃
Well done by ATC. Handled it calm and smoothly, almost like it's routine. LAX has a busy airspace - that chart was crazy!
I worked this sector for many years. I NEVER left them on the SID, I always gave them a heading. #1 rule is everyone gets a heading, altitude & speed.
Wow, what a pucker factor. No room for error there. Kudos to pilots and ATC who can work that airspace.
Sounds like the Sun Country pilot already had his pen a paper ready upon that call.
definitely, he knew it was coming.
Don't forget the pilot talking is not the one flying. The PIC would be getting the finger from the co-pilot.
They will file an asap. Assuming it wasnt intentional, criminal or drugs and alcohol weren't involved. It will likely be retraining.
What are the consequences? Also what if the pilot gets egotistic or confused when giving a 'citation' while on air !
@@uniqueurl in this case? remedial training for both pilots in the crew. the pilot flying did the mistake, but the pilot monitoring didn't catch it either. the other part I don't know, but it goes up to all the way of a so called 709 ride, where the FAA will basically retest you.
Wow. Strong work. Again, I can't imagine the formula that gives rise to The Air Traffic Controller - a breed of superhuman. It's one of those skills that cannot be taught. You either have the natural talent, or you don't. Bravo ! You pilots and controllers are the coolest cats out there. The flying public thanks you, and are lucky to have you ;-)
this guy is faster at reporting things than the controllers
What an amazing ATC guy. Very professional. And I was so thrilled waiting to see if he was going to do that number thing. Well, he did.
This controller was on top of it. Caught 428 making the turn before instructed and worked to deconflict rapidly.
CRowded Airspace - WOW - Lots of moving planes there. The Controller - has to be really " In Charge" !
Every mumbling ATC at Kennedy should learn from this guy
scary amount of traffic for this to happen, respect to the professional resolution
I wonder if Sun country put that departure in there without a discontinuity. If you load up that departure it leaves you on a heading of 251 after FABRA. It won’t turn you until you put in direct. They must have closed up that discontinuity before departure and left it on nav. That’s just a rookie mistake.
If so, they also failed to detect it on cross check. Those checks are important...
they thought they were flying in microsoft flight simulator with traffic on zero, direct all waypoints
@@kaamsogrimm Funny
didn't see this prior to writing my reply, didn't mean to echo so much of it. I am really curious as to how they got themselves in this state from an FMS standpoint. Someone took action to make it happen, the jet wouldn't have done it on its own.
@@coma13794 I know that if you load up that departure in the FMS it leaves you on a heading of 251 after FABRA with a discontinuity. Even if you have NAV selected, like you should, the airplane won’t turn towards the next fix. So someone cleared the discontinuity or selected direct or used heading to turn the airplane. Clearly not understanding the language on the plate. I do not think this is the first time this has happened. They probably should revise the look of that plate and not allow pilots to believe that they should be following that dotted line.
I have no idea about flight traffic at all. Everything I know is from watching this channel. That ATC is one of the best I've ever heard.
Hey, Air Canada in California and it's not their fault for once.
Also like the Sun Country deciding the 12000 call was for them right after copying the number.
Exactly what I thought, and was reading comments to see if someone had the same idea 😂
@@nicflatterie7772 He got a little startled I'm sure. It happens after a huge mess up and now you got some explaining to do.
In Sun Country’s defense, the controller didn’t use United’s full call sign so I can see how the 1912 part could’ve been missed on that climb to 12,000 call
The pilot successfully helped the ATC shake off all drowsiness and boost their alertness...It is truly impressive how calmly and quickly the ATC was able to respond
Well done to everyone here. Professional, no drama, disaster averted. Fly on.
It’s ALL about Professionalism and these Calls were Handled Extremely Well under the Circumstances. 👍🙏
Thanks!
good work by the controller👏
we have to realize that there is a limit on the number of aircraft that can be reasonably handled, with safety in mind.
I think we are about to exceed those boundaries, if we have not already 😔
Yeah, in this case though it is a SID, so if everybody just followed their FMS or whatever it probably should be fine. If isn't like they were all being vectored everywhere. That plane just had to follow its planned route.
I'm pretty critical of the ATC being too aggressive lately, but this feels like one of the ways that ought to work. I'd be curious about in cockpit procedures. Was the correct route in the FMS? Were they using AP or FD? Was the route checked by both pilots?
@RichFreeman I agree. There are questions as to why a simple error could have ended up differently.
@@RichFreeman Yeah this ATC was pretty good, not needlessly aggressive but urgently assertive in a very worrying situation
I agree: my concern is not "How many aircraft can one controller manage" but rather "How many aircraft can share the same frequency during the high-voice-traffic takeoff-and-climb phase of flight?".
@@KennethAGrimm I think a lot could be done with modern digital communications, including digitally communicating clearance limits. An FMS/etc could alert if a clearance is about to be exceeded, and an ATC system could prevent conflicting clearances from being issued. Of course this would necessitate not issuing those clearances routinely. Digital communications for voice could allow full duplex or prioritization.
Expect a left turn does not mean take a left turn
Shocking considering everyone who flies in and out of LAX knows where to turn out.
Yeah. But college educated pilots. What can you expect?
Entitlement!
@@DomManInT1 Would you rather have pilots that don't understand the physics of aerodynamics and how each part of the airplane body plays a role in it?
@@AM-dw2eq Make sure it's not misunderstanding or mishearing before claiming entitlement, no?
UAL1912 - Readback and altitude query - very professional.
Very calm, professional job there, bravo
I do like how smoothly this was handled. Pilot made a slight misunderstanding of depature procedures. I'm sure all that will happen during the phone call is ATC will say 'you got that now'? Pilot: 'yup'!
These SIDS can be overwhelming. Great job by ATC..
Geez. This is one busy airspace !!! So many calls blocked, the controller having a huge workload, … imagine if there were two emergencies to handle at the same time in this situation!
Doesn't seem to be the sort of airspace to make unexpected course changes in.
This ATC is the GOAT
Busy air space, great job atc ;)
crazy how both departure runways' traffic gets funneled into KLIPR
Great job by ATC, very professional. Looking at this chart, I am glad I fly Jepp charts and not NACA
I’m a little surprised neither of the involved parties received TCAS RAs in this situation
ATC caught it early enough
Didn’t Sun Country readback Delta’s assignment at 4:27?
Looks like it, why 1912 had to confirm 12000 right after.
They did
It was United and not Delta? @@VASAviation
That departure controller is a beast.
What a busy audio, with lots of calls stepped on (was there also interference from another frequency being picked up by the receiver used for the recording?). I wondered why i didnt hear a turn ordered for Air Canada, but I figured that must have been it.
I’ve seen this so much in vatsim but never expected it in real life
It has happen a lot irl
@@VASAviation oh I never knew that, they prob should’ve read the charts better
That's one busy frequency.
That departure is depicted differently on Jeppesen charts, there are not those black dots turning to the left.
the black dots are for lost comms. Standard for gov charts.
The Jepp ORCKA5 departure: "Climb on heading 251 degrees to 640, then climb direct to cross FABRA at or below 3000, then on heading 251 degrees or as assigned by ATC, EXPECT left turn to cross KLIPR at or above 10000"
He's got some 'splainin to do.....
He'll file an ASAP report and be fine
The FAA SID looks so different than Jepp
@@slabba53 Yes. I don't know anyone that uses NOAA plates anymore.
Excellent handling by ATC and all pilots including sun country. Sucks they got a number but it'll be a learning lesson for them. That being said they probably just followed the LNAV which will turn you to KLIPR if you remove the discontinuity which is what they did I think. What a bummer.
Wow must’ve been rush hour at LAX lots of departures on the 25 runways what a close call
ATC handled this perfectly. LAX is such a crowded airspace you really have to pay attention, both as a pilot and as a controller. I also appreciate the pilot of SCX428 being receptive and apologetic instead of combative, we've seen too many pilots causing issues on frequency.
It’s possible the crew mistakenly made the “turn left heading 190” command given to AA801. The AA801 and SCX428 left turns are identical and begin at the same, exact time.
Haven't heard that many comms stepping on each other since the early days of CB.
Breaker breaker
Happens all the time in aviation. The fact that they are still using AM simplex is just retarded.
90% of all comms could be handled by a digital paging system. No stepping on each other, no language barrier, no error.
@@cheapercharlieiii 10-4 Good Buddy
There was some kind of convoy song back in the day too
Always that one wanker with an illegally boosted set who seems to enjoy going "SQUAAAAAAAAAAAASH" for a half an hour.
@@detaartwhile I mostly agree with you, there are also good technical & practical reasons on why AM is still king of the (commercial) airspace...
Pretty precise instructions on that SID but aviation is a precise business.
Not very clear ones... For example, LSGG has a phrasing similar to "on ATC instruction, turn xxx" which would avoid any confusion for pilots not used to the airport.
Anyone notice Sun Country then read back the climb to 12,000 given to United??
Me. It's in the captions
The only surprise here is that the culprit wasn’t Air Canada this time.
I can fly just fine, but I was always terrible at those flight control games. I'd see one conflict and fixate on those to sort them out and next thing I know, two planes I didn't even know were on screen are crashing. While in ATC, you usually know planes are coming, you still have to keep your scan going when something is going wrong because the other traffic isn't stopping to give you time.
Good one
Flew this SID almost always when i am at LAX. On the FMS, when you load it. It will have DOCKR, then Vectors, then KIPLR. Someone must have deleted the vector part, which caused them to turn after Dockr.
Spelling of fixes might not be exact.
Well it depends on which aircraft and avionics
Great controller. The controllers on this sector are pretty uniformly great though.
Can you still fly directly above this mess in GA aircraft without contacting anyone in this special VFR corridor?
Lots of folks need to learn to listen before keying up there.
Nothing to add to already inciteful comments, other than to say again that this channel is a giant public service. Thanks again, VAS.
Victor does a great service to all trying to learn.
@@cheapercharlieiii To those trying to learn, for sure... but I meant service to the flying public. ATC needs to improve, particularly in the U.S.
@@hatpeach1 I hear you an agree. I am not a pilot but understanding how the system works is fascinating and knowing some of ins and outs helps comfort me and sometimes a seat mate what a go around is, holding foot checklist, etc.
Loss of separation sure but a "near mid-air collision"? Great job from the controller.
well, if ATC had not seen it immediately, then...
Now we know what Jack Webb is doing these days. :-) But seriously, that ATC was on the ball!
Just the facts.
😂😂
Great job by ATC! And thank you for calling it a "near collision" instead of "near miss". I never did understand that term. They didn't "nearly miss"; they DID miss! What they did was nearly collided.
It's near, not nearly. Near-miss makes sense, nearly miss does not. The two words have different definitions. Near suggests proximity, not something avoided.
ATC gave heading to UAL1912 but never said climb. She verified heading. Later ATC asks UAL if they’re climbing. Sun Country acknowledges and climbs. ATC gives UAL1912 new heading. She asks if she should stay at 5000. ATC says negative, climb to 12000. Another miss for Sun Country there, ATC does not correct read back, UAL1912 apparently missed it, too, but she confirms with ATC then it gets straightened out. Chaotic moments all around the time of deviation. Goes to show how things can keep rippling out. Fortunately the system worked to catch it all.
Mid air collisions really suck don't they? Last night I just watched the documentary on the Cerritos Aeromexico mid air collision of August 1986, oh my god
I wonder what TCAS was doing?
It may sounds like another day at work for the ATC, but this was close to a disaster, I wonder what the Sun Country pilots were doing before the departure and the FMS setup?
Anyone know why LAX tower always says the departure before takeoff clearance? I’ve only flew there a couple times but it’s the only airport I’ve had where tower reminds you of your departure clearance before takeoff
So the pilots make sure they fly the correct departure…
I rent cars for business trips a lot more now. I know statistically I am safer in the air, but with all the close calls and parts flying off as of late, I believe those odds will soon be even.
Great job by the ATC folks on this one.
Why do they give out a number everytime theres an error? What happens when the pilots call?
Nice job by ATC. It must hav been these guys first time into LAX because this is standard ops.
Thats an oopsie for sure. Though that last bit with the controller was a bit confusing. The controller said affim to Sun Country 428 but with little pause went straight to United 1912 to climb to 12000..
Give that ATC a raise!
wait what? how is that even possible? don't you have discontinuity after you load the SID?
So what happens during “the call?”
Does TCAS have the ability to calculate more than 2 planes?
Expect vs except? I misread it when first reading it.
LAX have great controllers, never had any issues flying into there or SFO for that matter. You just have to make sure you're down to where they want you. No constant descent profiles!
JFK on the other hand...expect a bollocking from approach, tower and ground :D
Expect vs turn
oops, someone about to get some Sim time!
Your statement isn’t true at all
@@ilbria5913They can, it just depends on what the FAA and the company decide on
@@TB-um1xz Yep, it depends on the outcome, but the airline’s ASAP will more than likely protect the pilots from doing any sim time.
@@ilbria5913 not true. ASAP program is to confess what you did and the FAA won't take action against your license. As long as it wasn't intentional. But the company will go to the FAA and say the punishment will be 2 hours in the sim covering these items. Or some sort of computer training lesson.
SIMPilots making things up lol.
Another one? We just had that close call in New York🛩️✈️😮😮
When?
When there's a pilot deviation and a phone number is given, whose number is that? Do they have to call right away? What is the usual result? Thanks.
From what I’ve heard It’s usually the number of the controlling ATC facility and the pilots call on the ground, they then discuss the incident and what went wrong. I could be wrong though
I was going to ask how was it that DAL 1517 wasn't a problem, because it looks like it's turning into ACA 776, too, but listening back, it sounds like it was much higher than the others, going to 15000.
If I'm reading this correctly, the screen shows DAL1517 was at about 8000 feet (080) which is well above the others at around 3000 feet (030) at the time of the incident.
@@NalinAirheart thanks!
Sun Country seems to have put the autopilot on and forgotten that he's on vectors after FABRA.
ATC very professional here. Much different controller I heard earlier this week in LAX.. comments were like he was talking with bag of marbles in his mouth. Pilots had to ask if they were "cleared to land" since could not understand him.
"Clarduhlan"
I am usually reassured by even near misses, because of the professionalism and safety points in place. But hearing all of these radio calls stepping on each other gives me a stomach ache. Too many planes in too small a place.
I agree. If the frequencies have been assigning in such a way that pilots and controllers are frequently stepping on each other, The FAA needs to re-examine those allocations.
I suspect someone will respond "But... ...same runway... ...same airspace" OK, maybe that allocation needs to also be examined.
They weren't stepping on that many. This LiveATC receiver is recording multiple frequencies and you hear that.
It’s over Anakin….I have the high ground
Hi guys, can someone explain what's next after that unwanted call for possible pilot deviation? Thank you!
it all happens very fast
That's a tough juggle for the Flight Control mobile game, and this is with real planes lol!
I must be old fashioned but I remember a time when it wasn’t daily a major close call occurred I dunno
That SID could certainly be depicted a bit more clearly. Not sure why the track needs to be shown of it’s just an expected vector…
SUN COUNTRY FO sounds like a recent ATP ACADEMY graduate
This seems to be a re-occurring issue with LAX, scary.
SFO will turn the heat back on
Yep, always these departures
Whom ever made that SID is awesome! I would buy that guy a beer! I would also put money down he was in the military. He also drinks allot. This SID is cool!
The drunker you get, the cooler this SID becomes ...just like my ex
@@boudibla4011 Have you ever seen the approach plate somewhere in Arkansas? It's all about the Clintons.
Never have understood why the 4 departure lanes join up like that, sending two around to the north and two around to the south would significantly reduce the opportunity for conflict (at the cost of putting airliners over Santa Monica)
that would cause issues with the arrivals into LAX coming from the north, AND you still ultimately have a single file queue towards the transition. Fanning them out from LAX only to have them rejoin just east of LAX solves very little while causing it's own issues. The vectored segment is what allows the controller to get everyone sequenced by timing the turns to the south, then the east. It works wonderfully when pilots don't turn on their own.
The north airspace is extremely busy and complex due to high minimum altitudes (mountainous terrain), the downwind for LAX north complex, plus all the Van Nuys, Burbank, and Santa Monica traffic.
Wow. If you didn't know what you were listening to or listening for, you'd probably not even hear something amiss!
One question, I often see the controller giving this number to the pilot, what happened next?
You call the number and discuss what happened