Near MID-AIR COLLISION | Pilots Turned Into Another Plane at LAX!
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- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2024
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You know what was the best part of this? When the ATC made the correction, he quickly and calmly handled the situation, explained what the procedure was, and that was it. No berating the pilots after or any shaming or venting, just got back to calmly, safely fixing the situation. For what it's worth, the Sun Country pilots who made the mistake also didn't try to make any excuses or become emotional. Mistake was made, they immediately followed the instructions to correct the mistake, and accepted the fact that they would have to answer for it instead of making excuses.
Sounded to me like the pilot might have been expecting the number
Professional all around - great to hear!
If it had been Air Canada that screwed up, they'd be adding "sorry" at the end of every transmission until they left the airspace 😂
@@avrohomz4582 pilot knew they fucked up, so yea, they were expecting the number.
Had it been an east coast controller it definitely wouldn't have been handled the same
Calm and professional atc makes everything easier.
Without doxxing myself I'm a controller very familiar with this operation. Great job by the departure controller who did his job perfectly by the book here. #1 issue traffic/safety alerts, then separate them. It's pretty clear sun country f'd this one up pretty bad.
This is some of the busiest airspace in the world at LAX. Everyone needs to be at the top of their game. ATIS states simultaneous parallel instrument departures happening at all times. Pilots must be vigilant and aware of this!
Retired controller from ZAU. Yes very nice job by that controller.
I work for Flexjet and always taking 25l or R and RNAV to dockr. Never had a problem.
You know this better than anyone, but this is hardly a rare procedure for any LAX Part 121 pilots. The fact that not one, but two pilots up front hadn't visualized the departure, planning to fly straight after KLIPPR until being told otherwise is truly stunning and worthy of an investigation on its own. How was FMS setup? Who initiated the turn? The FMS should've halted any sequencing after KLIPPR and shown a discontinuity. The only way it would've self-sequenced to the next waypoint is if someone either deleted the discontinuity or manually selected the next point. The details of HOW this happened on the pilot side are critical and should be shared so that every training department can learn. Thank GOODNESS the 25L has the diverging heading...that at least gave them a lateral buffer to work with otherwise this could've been a mess.
Side note, curious if either aircraft got an RA. That could've been interesting as the pilots would then have to comply with the RA and NOT ATC's instructions from what I understand (I'm part 91 single engine piston with a parking brake, let alone this level of TCAS).
I am a retired United pilot who flew into LAX hundreds of times and loved working with their awesome air traffic controllers like you. I even had a friend who worked SOCAL and would give him a headsup when I spoke to him on the radio when I was landing at LAX. Your viewpoint is spot on. Professionalism in my former profession is taking some huge hits thanks to a new generation of pilots, but I don't see the same thing happening in your profession.
@@coma13794 I was just thinking that this could be a fatigue related incident.
Atc guy is a robot. Sees everything, reacts properly, and doesn't get emotional or frazzled
Sun Country barely turned before the controller already called it out. Amazing job. That's truly being on top of everything.
I think I know his voice from listening to liveatc. If I'm correct, he's like that all the time. He's doing a fantastic job.
Super busy airspace and a lot of crosstalk. The controller did an awesome job remaining cool and clear AND deal with a PD. Well done!
A single frequency for all that traffic, crazy
The crosstalk was due to the receiver
@@cheapercharlieiiinot a single frequency. Different controllers. Even the tower controllers weren’t the same.
Excellent recovery by all involved. ATC separated first, then calmly and briefly explained what pilots did wrong, pilots acknowledged, took their licks without arguing. When time allowed they issued the number. Bad screwup to start off, but everyone swallowed their pride and figured out how to fix.
At least it wasn't ATC this time. But what a busy air space.
Or Air Canada!
@@Ea-Nasir_Copper_Co I was like 50% expecting AC to turn right given what we've seen from them here over the past few years
@@Ea-Nasir_Copper_Co😂
Another one?!
ATC voice is so soothing
Was that possibly a subtile stress-induced tremble at 2:36? 😆
It would be interesting to have both ATC and pilot heart rate displayed on screen 🙃
Wow, what a pucker factor. No room for error there. Kudos to pilots and ATC who can work that airspace.
Well done by ATC. Handled it calm and smoothly, almost like it's routine. LAX has a busy airspace - that chart was crazy!
SCX took the climb instruct at the end too before United came on to confirm
I was gonna say! Hear back, read back!
4:22 - "Affirm .. and ..." may have caused more confusion there.
@@TomNimitz Good catch. "Affirm -BREAK- Full Callsign + Instruction" could've been clearer but feels nit-picky - no similar sounding callsign on frequency and the one taking the instruction has a flight number no where near that. The 428 seemed locked in on hearing what they were expecting no matter what
I just came to comment on that! The vid doesn't show if 428 realized the climb was for UAL, or if he merrily went to 12000' anyway.
If so, he double f'd up...
I noticed as well, and good on United for asking the controller "Do you want us to stay at 5000...". they knew the call was for them, but didn't want to add more noise. SCX had been cleared to 12000 at 0:49, they were probably a bit flustered and didn't catch that the call was not intended for them, but I guess the controller didn't want to add more frustration to an already bad day.
I worked this sector for many years. I NEVER left them on the SID, I always gave them a heading. #1 rule is everyone gets a heading, altitude & speed.
this guy is faster at reporting things than the controllers
Sounds like the Sun Country pilot already had his pen a paper ready upon that call.
definitely, he knew it was coming.
Don't forget the pilot talking is not the one flying. The PIC would be getting the finger from the co-pilot.
They will file an asap. Assuming it wasnt intentional, criminal or drugs and alcohol weren't involved. It will likely be retraining.
What are the consequences? Also what if the pilot gets egotistic or confused when giving a 'citation' while on air !
@@uniqueurl in this case? remedial training for both pilots in the crew. the pilot flying did the mistake, but the pilot monitoring didn't catch it either. the other part I don't know, but it goes up to all the way of a so called 709 ride, where the FAA will basically retest you.
What an amazing ATC guy. Very professional. And I was so thrilled waiting to see if he was going to do that number thing. Well, he did.
CRowded Airspace - WOW - Lots of moving planes there. The Controller - has to be really " In Charge" !
scary amount of traffic for this to happen, respect to the professional resolution
Wow. Strong work. Again, I can't imagine the formula that gives rise to The Air Traffic Controller - a breed of superhuman. It's one of those skills that cannot be taught. You either have the natural talent, or you don't. Bravo ! You pilots and controllers are the coolest cats out there. The flying public thanks you, and are lucky to have you ;-)
Well done to everyone here. Professional, no drama, disaster averted. Fly on.
Every mumbling ATC at Kennedy should learn from this guy
This controller was on top of it. Caught 428 making the turn before instructed and worked to deconflict rapidly.
I have no idea about flight traffic at all. Everything I know is from watching this channel. That ATC is one of the best I've ever heard.
It’s ALL about Professionalism and these Calls were Handled Extremely Well under the Circumstances. 👍🙏
The pilot successfully helped the ATC shake off all drowsiness and boost their alertness...It is truly impressive how calmly and quickly the ATC was able to respond
Thanks!
Very calm, professional job there, bravo
I do like how smoothly this was handled. Pilot made a slight misunderstanding of depature procedures. I'm sure all that will happen during the phone call is ATC will say 'you got that now'? Pilot: 'yup'!
Hey, Air Canada in California and it's not their fault for once.
Also like the Sun Country deciding the 12000 call was for them right after copying the number.
Exactly what I thought, and was reading comments to see if someone had the same idea 😂
@@nicflatterie7772 He got a little startled I'm sure. It happens after a huge mess up and now you got some explaining to do.
In Sun Country’s defense, the controller didn’t use United’s full call sign so I can see how the 1912 part could’ve been missed on that climb to 12,000 call
good work by the controller👏
we have to realize that there is a limit on the number of aircraft that can be reasonably handled, with safety in mind.
I think we are about to exceed those boundaries, if we have not already 😔
Yeah, in this case though it is a SID, so if everybody just followed their FMS or whatever it probably should be fine. If isn't like they were all being vectored everywhere. That plane just had to follow its planned route.
I'm pretty critical of the ATC being too aggressive lately, but this feels like one of the ways that ought to work. I'd be curious about in cockpit procedures. Was the correct route in the FMS? Were they using AP or FD? Was the route checked by both pilots?
@RichFreeman I agree. There are questions as to why a simple error could have ended up differently.
@@RichFreeman Yeah this ATC was pretty good, not needlessly aggressive but urgently assertive in a very worrying situation
I agree: my concern is not "How many aircraft can one controller manage" but rather "How many aircraft can share the same frequency during the high-voice-traffic takeoff-and-climb phase of flight?".
@@KennethAGrimm I think a lot could be done with modern digital communications, including digitally communicating clearance limits. An FMS/etc could alert if a clearance is about to be exceeded, and an ATC system could prevent conflicting clearances from being issued. Of course this would necessitate not issuing those clearances routinely. Digital communications for voice could allow full duplex or prioritization.
I wonder if Sun country put that departure in there without a discontinuity. If you load up that departure it leaves you on a heading of 251 after FABRA. It won’t turn you until you put in direct. They must have closed up that discontinuity before departure and left it on nav. That’s just a rookie mistake.
If so, they also failed to detect it on cross check. Those checks are important...
they thought they were flying in microsoft flight simulator with traffic on zero, direct all waypoints
@@kaamsogrimm Funny
didn't see this prior to writing my reply, didn't mean to echo so much of it. I am really curious as to how they got themselves in this state from an FMS standpoint. Someone took action to make it happen, the jet wouldn't have done it on its own.
@@coma13794 I know that if you load up that departure in the FMS it leaves you on a heading of 251 after FABRA with a discontinuity. Even if you have NAV selected, like you should, the airplane won’t turn towards the next fix. So someone cleared the discontinuity or selected direct or used heading to turn the airplane. Clearly not understanding the language on the plate. I do not think this is the first time this has happened. They probably should revise the look of that plate and not allow pilots to believe that they should be following that dotted line.
These SIDS can be overwhelming. Great job by ATC..
This ATC is the GOAT
That departure controller is a beast.
UAL1912 - Readback and altitude query - very professional.
Geez. This is one busy airspace !!! So many calls blocked, the controller having a huge workload, … imagine if there were two emergencies to handle at the same time in this situation!
crazy how both departure runways' traffic gets funneled into KLIPR
Busy air space, great job atc ;)
That's one busy frequency.
Expect a left turn does not mean take a left turn
Shocking considering everyone who flies in and out of LAX knows where to turn out.
Yeah. But college educated pilots. What can you expect?
Entitlement!
@@DomManInT1 Would you rather have pilots that don't understand the physics of aerodynamics and how each part of the airplane body plays a role in it?
@@AM-dw2eq Make sure it's not misunderstanding or mishearing before claiming entitlement, no?
This ATC should be making a million dollars a year.
the top atcs make 250k+ a year
I’ve seen this so much in vatsim but never expected it in real life
It has happen a lot irl
@@VASAviation oh I never knew that, they prob should’ve read the charts better
ATC handled this perfectly. LAX is such a crowded airspace you really have to pay attention, both as a pilot and as a controller. I also appreciate the pilot of SCX428 being receptive and apologetic instead of combative, we've seen too many pilots causing issues on frequency.
The Jepp ORCKA5 departure: "Climb on heading 251 degrees to 640, then climb direct to cross FABRA at or below 3000, then on heading 251 degrees or as assigned by ATC, EXPECT left turn to cross KLIPR at or above 10000"
He's got some 'splainin to do.....
He'll file an ASAP report and be fine
The FAA SID looks so different than Jepp
@@slabba53 Yes. I don't know anyone that uses NOAA plates anymore.
Great job by ATC, very professional. Looking at this chart, I am glad I fly Jepp charts and not NACA
Haven't heard that many comms stepping on each other since the early days of CB.
Breaker breaker
Happens all the time in aviation. The fact that they are still using AM simplex is just retarded.
90% of all comms could be handled by a digital paging system. No stepping on each other, no language barrier, no error.
@@cheapercharlieiii 10-4 Good Buddy
There was some kind of convoy song back in the day too
Always that one wanker with an illegally boosted set who seems to enjoy going "SQUAAAAAAAAAAAASH" for a half an hour.
@@detaartwhile I mostly agree with you, there are also good technical & practical reasons on why AM is still king of the (commercial) airspace...
I’m a little surprised neither of the involved parties received TCAS RAs in this situation
ATC caught it early enough
Wow must’ve been rush hour at LAX lots of departures on the 25 runways what a close call
What a busy audio, with lots of calls stepped on (was there also interference from another frequency being picked up by the receiver used for the recording?). I wondered why i didnt hear a turn ordered for Air Canada, but I figured that must have been it.
Excellent handling by ATC and all pilots including sun country. Sucks they got a number but it'll be a learning lesson for them. That being said they probably just followed the LNAV which will turn you to KLIPR if you remove the discontinuity which is what they did I think. What a bummer.
Good one
Pretty precise instructions on that SID but aviation is a precise business.
Not very clear ones... For example, LSGG has a phrasing similar to "on ATC instruction, turn xxx" which would avoid any confusion for pilots not used to the airport.
Nothing to add to already inciteful comments, other than to say again that this channel is a giant public service. Thanks again, VAS.
Victor does a great service to all trying to learn.
@@cheapercharlieiii To those trying to learn, for sure... but I meant service to the flying public. ATC needs to improve, particularly in the U.S.
@@hatpeach1 I hear you an agree. I am not a pilot but understanding how the system works is fascinating and knowing some of ins and outs helps comfort me and sometimes a seat mate what a go around is, holding foot checklist, etc.
Doesn't seem to be the sort of airspace to make unexpected course changes in.
Give that ATC a raise!
Now we know what Jack Webb is doing these days. :-) But seriously, that ATC was on the ball!
Just the facts.
😂😂
Lots of folks need to learn to listen before keying up there.
Loss of separation sure but a "near mid-air collision"? Great job from the controller.
well, if ATC had not seen it immediately, then...
I am usually reassured by even near misses, because of the professionalism and safety points in place. But hearing all of these radio calls stepping on each other gives me a stomach ache. Too many planes in too small a place.
I agree. If the frequencies have been assigning in such a way that pilots and controllers are frequently stepping on each other, The FAA needs to re-examine those allocations.
I suspect someone will respond "But... ...same runway... ...same airspace" OK, maybe that allocation needs to also be examined.
They weren't stepping on that many. This LiveATC receiver is recording multiple frequencies and you hear that.
"Do you have a pen ready?"
Ouch!
Great controller. The controllers on this sector are pretty uniformly great though.
That departure is depicted differently on Jeppesen charts, there are not those black dots turning to the left.
the black dots are for lost comms. Standard for gov charts.
It’s possible the crew mistakenly made the “turn left heading 190” command given to AA801. The AA801 and SCX428 left turns are identical and begin at the same, exact time.
Great job by ATC! And thank you for calling it a "near collision" instead of "near miss". I never did understand that term. They didn't "nearly miss"; they DID miss! What they did was nearly collided.
It's near, not nearly. Near-miss makes sense, nearly miss does not. The two words have different definitions. Near suggests proximity, not something avoided.
ATC gave heading to UAL1912 but never said climb. She verified heading. Later ATC asks UAL if they’re climbing. Sun Country acknowledges and climbs. ATC gives UAL1912 new heading. She asks if she should stay at 5000. ATC says negative, climb to 12000. Another miss for Sun Country there, ATC does not correct read back, UAL1912 apparently missed it, too, but she confirms with ATC then it gets straightened out. Chaotic moments all around the time of deviation. Goes to show how things can keep rippling out. Fortunately the system worked to catch it all.
it all happens very fast
It’s over Anakin….I have the high ground
Expect vs turn
Nice job by ATC. It must hav been these guys first time into LAX because this is standard ops.
I rent cars for business trips a lot more now. I know statistically I am safer in the air, but with all the close calls and parts flying off as of late, I believe those odds will soon be even.
Great job by the ATC folks on this one.
I can fly just fine, but I was always terrible at those flight control games. I'd see one conflict and fixate on those to sort them out and next thing I know, two planes I didn't even know were on screen are crashing. While in ATC, you usually know planes are coming, you still have to keep your scan going when something is going wrong because the other traffic isn't stopping to give you time.
oops, someone about to get some Sim time!
Your statement isn’t true at all
@@ilbria5913They can, it just depends on what the FAA and the company decide on
@@TB-um1xz Yep, it depends on the outcome, but the airline’s ASAP will more than likely protect the pilots from doing any sim time.
@@ilbria5913 not true. ASAP program is to confess what you did and the FAA won't take action against your license. As long as it wasn't intentional. But the company will go to the FAA and say the punishment will be 2 hours in the sim covering these items. Or some sort of computer training lesson.
SIMPilots making things up lol.
That's a tough juggle for the Flight Control mobile game, and this is with real planes lol!
It may sounds like another day at work for the ATC, but this was close to a disaster, I wonder what the Sun Country pilots were doing before the departure and the FMS setup?
Can you still fly directly above this mess in GA aircraft without contacting anyone in this special VFR corridor?
Thats an oopsie for sure. Though that last bit with the controller was a bit confusing. The controller said affim to Sun Country 428 but with little pause went straight to United 1912 to climb to 12000..
Mid air collisions really suck don't they? Last night I just watched the documentary on the Cerritos Aeromexico mid air collision of August 1986, oh my god
LAX have great controllers, never had any issues flying into there or SFO for that matter. You just have to make sure you're down to where they want you. No constant descent profiles!
JFK on the other hand...expect a bollocking from approach, tower and ground :D
SUN COUNTRY FO sounds like a recent ATP ACADEMY graduate
Sun Country seems to have put the autopilot on and forgotten that he's on vectors after FABRA.
Another one? We just had that close call in New York🛩️✈️😮😮
When?
wait what? how is that even possible? don't you have discontinuity after you load the SID?
ATC very professional here. Much different controller I heard earlier this week in LAX.. comments were like he was talking with bag of marbles in his mouth. Pilots had to ask if they were "cleared to land" since could not understand him.
"Clarduhlan"
I wonder what TCAS was doing?
Anyone notice Sun Country then read back the climb to 12,000 given to United??
Me. It's in the captions
Whom ever made that SID is awesome! I would buy that guy a beer! I would also put money down he was in the military. He also drinks allot. This SID is cool!
The drunker you get, the cooler this SID becomes ...just like my ex
@@boudibla4011 Have you ever seen the approach plate somewhere in Arkansas? It's all about the Clintons.
Flew this SID almost always when i am at LAX. On the FMS, when you load it. It will have DOCKR, then Vectors, then KIPLR. Someone must have deleted the vector part, which caused them to turn after Dockr.
Spelling of fixes might not be exact.
Well it depends on which aircraft and avionics
So what happens during “the call?”
Honest mistake from the pilots, and pure professionalism from the controllers. made sure to keep the flow running smoothly while correcting the problem, stay calm and collected, and made sure 428 was established on a safe heading before getting them the number. Pilots also handled the situation well, took it on the chin and corrected as soon as the error was relayed.
This seems to be a re-occurring issue with LAX, scary.
SFO will turn the heat back on
Yep, always these departures
Southwest just said f this and turned right and away
Wow. If you didn't know what you were listening to or listening for, you'd probably not even hear something amiss!
What a complicated situation and graphics.
It's a radar scope, not normal graphics
Wow!
Didn’t Sun Country readback Delta’s assignment at 4:27?
Looks like it, why 1912 had to confirm 12000 right after.
They did
It was United and not Delta? @@VASAviation
Best atc controller voice 😂
it kinda sounds like the default pilot voice in Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004
@@marcellkovacs5452 I thought the exact same thing lol.
Does TCAS have the ability to calculate more than 2 planes?
a mere ergonomic factor may be a contributor to the crew adm.
both pilots were most likely unfamiliar with the orcka 5 rnav departure, so as untrained eyes scanned the takeoff narrative, neither of them caught the word 'expect'. if they are using government charts, the word is 'expect'; this is my theory. if they were to use jepp charts, the word is 'EXPECT'. even in my paragraph, i've written here, that all-caps EXPECT is difficult to not see.
i feel for these guys as they churn through this difficult episode, and hope that they come out of it stronger, humbler, and healed with scars of superhuman awareness and adm.
The tower is talking over everyone
Expect vs except? I misread it when first reading it.
BRASHER!!!!n Almost KABLAMMO!