I understood what you were saying cuz I'm familiar with the game math, but I don't think I heard you put much emphasis/clarification on diminishing returns. Explaining that more could help newer players understand how to build other teams/characters differently I personally LOVE my Furina Yelan Navia Noelle team. It has so much common damage bonus, I've used genshin optimizer to confirm that every single one of them would rather have an atk/def/hp goblet than a damage percent one. This is of course with some artifact limitations on my account, but it's definitely true for the best invested ones as well
That's because that stuff doesn't have diminishing returns. If 20% attack adds 1k damage, then 20% more will add another 1k. That's a flat return. What does happen, due to how atk%, DMG, and CrD interact, is changes in the opportunity cost. So we really should be discussing IOC (increased opportunity cost), where, due to raising attack, DMG and CrD now have more value than they did before, and so you might want to shift focus due to that.
Ty for the comment, may actually pin it lol. Most of the time when the community calls stuff diminishing returns its not actually diminishing returns. Which is why I avoid using the term. What I was talking about with the relative value of atk% with and without Bennett actually IS what most of the community calls diminishing returns (which it isnt). The community basically uses the term as a catch all to describe when you could be better served by getting more of another stat vs going too much into just one stat. So I try to make sure I describe things by how they increase your damage a set amount (most scaling in the game is linear), but the relative value you gain from the baseline changes depending on what other stats you have from other things. Because you have multiple linear scalings going on for different stats in the games damage calculation, there are breakpoints that mean different stats have different relative values to each other (but not unto themselves) Genshin DOES have one thing that does have actual diminishing returns on its scaling, by the way, which is EM scaling for transformative reactions dmg calculation. There is a falloff such that you can see less of a dmg increase per extra point of EM you have. Which is to say EM’s value changes relative to ITSELF, which is real diminishing returns. Its not linear. Eg you get significantly less of a dmg increase from 200 em for hyperbloom dmg going from 1000->1200 em as you do 800->1000. Atk, dmg%, and crit are all linear in comparison. If there wasnt anything in the game that actually had diminishing scaling Id be less concerned about calling relative stat values “diminishing.” I do think its fine to specifically say something like “dmg% has diminishing returns relative to atk% in [insert context]”, but I also think that using diminishing along with “relative” is pointless since just “relative” communicates the same idea on its own, and makes it more confusing to talk about EM (which actually has both non diminishing and diminishing returns depending on the reaction lol) and its relationship to elemental reactions (imo by far the most relevant mechanics in the game) But anyways, you are absolutely correct that with the options for saturating dmg% available to us now there are many times where non element% goblets can be worse stat for stat. Most of the time element% is still better, but especially with the 5.0 artifacts it will be more an more common that they are worse. Thats actually the same thing I actually talked about with atk% in this video btw, wherein its due to the relative values of different stats from the baseline, not because there is actually falloff in the scaling of dmg%.
@@Solunerra oh, I didn't realize diminishing returns referred to a hard built-in reduction of the value of something like EM. If you'd still like to pin my comment for newer players, should I change my wording to "increased opportunity cost" as someone else said? That seems to be a good way to put it Thanks for the explanation, I'll try to be more careful in the future!
One of my fastest Abyss teams is Navia, Furina, Xianyun, Chiori. I think it’s pretty fun to alternate Gunbrella shots with geo plunges. It’s also just so nice to not be constrained to a small circle.
ive got everybody but xianyun and im not interested in pullin do you have any idea who could be good instead of xianyun (preferably not bennet cuz i need him for my arle)
@@littlehamham3281charlotte (can use tenacity on her and noblesse on someone else), barbara, siegewinne (works pretty well with furina and chiori) or noelle as on-field dps (quickswap navia with 4pc GT)
@@littlehamham3281 Sigewinne (but not sure if you'd have her). Any other healer can work but it would depend on Energy and/or more on-field time, like charlotte, barbara or kokomi, and all of these would not add much to the team besides fanfarre. Which not necessarily is a bad thing, but just a thing to consider.
@@littlehamham3281 Dori, especially if you have her at C6. Plenty of electro app. Plenty of healing for Furina. With C6, her E lets her heal the team with some melee attacks, so nice and mobile. Electro-charged is extra damage and can be crystalized off of.
The suffering trying to make Navia crit at 7:36 lmfao. I feel that. My Navia with EIGHTY-TWO crit rate once went about six or eight skills in a row without landing a single crit.
Navia's shrapnel hits very inconsistently, so you might have done everything right and missed some shrapnels leading to a smaller number. It's preferable to rely on an auto targeting with her (tap skill instead of hold skill), at least in a situation where you have a single enemy close by. If you want to hit multiple enemies it's better to manual, but still keep in mind results will vary from shot to shot.
It is pretty consistent, provided you aim well enough (so probably easier on PC than mobile). But yeah, I agree that tapping is the way to go for a single enemy. It's also what you want to do for the first shot, typically, as the hold E vacuums in any crystals, which, if you are doing 2 Es within a short time frame, you'll want for the second shot. Of course, if you lack ammo, then hold E even on the first to gather them crystals.
Using navia quick swap with golden troupe keeps her damage output high enough that it doesn’t seem to matter, and I’ve fit her into basically every 3 team core like this. Swap in, drop 200k, swap out.
Exactly this!! I use either Noelle-Navia-Furina-Fischl or, for comfort, Noelle-Navia-Furina-Mika and it just clears everything it needs to with incredible healing, shielding and great AoE. When I first saw how many particles Navia's E creates, I immediately knew I'm making her into a battery for Noelle :D
It's interesting that you brought up the example of Arlecchino having Bennett versus Navia since I don't run Bennett with either of them. I find both of their scalings are so high that Bennett either feels like overkill or waste, but that comes with Zhongli as a caveat. I use him in both of their teams for easy shred and tenacity, and for Navia specifically the geo resonance. Almost every unit that came out in Fontaine, with the exception of Wriothesley and Lyney didn't need to have Bennett with them, which was nice. For reference of the teams I do use, for anyone curious: Navia (Wolf's Gravestone), Miko, Fischl, Zhongli Arlecchino (I switch between Jade Spear and White Tassel but there isn't that big of a difference), Noblesse Mona, Xingqiu, Zhongli (Layla can be a replacement, but she near guarantees I need to use Jade Spear)
one of my favourite recent videos from you. i have a few additional pointers to share: 1. kachina with the new support set coming soon in 5.0 will be valuable for navia (she's doing almost nothing without said set, it's a must), likely competitive with c0 chiori. if you absolutely die-hard NEED bennett on the other side (e.g. childe or lyney, who have very poor synergy with other buffers like yelan and furina), you can run something like kachina + furina + xianyun/kokomi with navia. 2. in general, niche supports should not be overlooked that much because the value of freeing up your other supports for the other side in abyss is very high as long as you need that freeing up. if bennett is unavailable, but for example you have shenhe to go with wriothesley, or yunjin to go with yoimiya, you won't be stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to deciding whether to make a cope substitution for one of your two teams (e.g. dehya onto the lyney team), or straight up throw away that second team and use a completely different team altogether that you may not have built properly. 3. this has been mentioned by the pinned comment and its comment chain, but the concept of increased opportunity cost also has to be mentioned more across the genshin community. the reason it gets miswritten by many as diminishing returns is that DR is basically thought of as a simpler way to explain the concept of focusing more on one offensive stat at the expense of another leading to inferior total dps output compared to the optimal ratio of the stats (a very over-simplified example is that if you can add 50 to either side of 100*150, you'd rather add it to the lower number because 150*150=22500 > 100*200=20000) when that is not really the case from a strictly mathematical standpoint. real DR comes in the form of EM, and there's also hard caps like CR at 100%, but IOC tends to be more relevant than DR, because IOC is the one that applies, not DR, when you're looking at how your ayaka might do more damage on a 250 CD 2300 atk build than a 300 CD 1900 atk build (partly because of blizzard strayer + her anti-synergy with bennett). IOC is the term that better explains the idea that when you get an upgrade of 1 more atk substat, it scales your dps differently than if it had been 1 more CR/CD/EM/(even ER for emblem users) substat instead, but in practice, 1 more substat is much less likely to be the difference between getting 35* and 36* in comparison to simply learning to play the team rotation better and dodge enemy attack patterns better.
Can you explain the Kachina thing? I recently got Navia and was targeting Kazuha as my next pull, but if this new character has particularly good synergy with Navia...
Yeah, you can use different buffers lol, but that wasnt really the point. Obviously Furina is a good buffer for her, but there is actually cooldown timing awkwardness that can arise with Furina. I wouldve used her w/o Furina in the abyss but it was basically necessary for second half. The main point I was trying to make was showing how Benny changes the value of atk%, which was also shown with the Furina team (to potentially even greater extent due to having a lot of dmg bonus already from Furina, so Gravestone shouldve been better than SS there too)
Yeah I shouldve mentiomed Sara. Her attack buff window is really bad. I did kinda forget her but sadly Hoyo decided to make her hyper niche. I never even enjoyed using Sara with Raiden
I really like Sara in a aggravate quick swap team. She has high scaling multipliers for dmg. C2 make her buffing window better and Sac Bow gives high base atk and ER which she really likes. I slot her on a team with Tighnari and Raiden and a flex slot. She fits well imo
What do you mean Bennett level attack buff? Sara's attack buff is only 2/3 of what Bennett can give. For non Electro characters, that's worse than Bennett. For Electro, since also with 60% crit dmg then good.
Sara is NOT a Bennet level attack buff. yes, she buffs your attack, but due to her weaker scaling, her atk buff is only ~66% of Benny's atk buff. and that's not even mentioning the awkward timing it has in comparison I love using her, but only cuz she's C6 with my C2 Raiden
@@sarahc5608if you have a high-ish constellation Beidou (c2 and c4 are very nice, mine is C6) and like her and her playstyle, I definitely recommend building her and trying that team with her :) My fave Arlecchino team is the double hydro with Yelan and Xingqiu, or Furina + Xingqiu/Yelan + Bennett/Zhongli/Kazuha but the overload one is also really fun
I met someone that used c6 Amber with Elegy for the theater. The buff she provided was basically on par with Bennett and made up the fact you can only use characters twice.
The visual indicator for the extra 40% atk buff on WGS is a red wolf head flashing above your character’s head (when it’s first triggered, so not an indicator for whether it’s active at any given moment) - you can see it around 8:04
ive never used bennet because i dislike his character and its really nice to see strong teams without him, it gives me hope that i will one day beat floor 12
You're onto something I've been workshopping where if im presented a situation where I want to run two typical Bennett teams, ill just use Furina on one side and use an ATK% goblet on the character she pairs with. I feel like that's part of the reason as to why Plunge Navia is pretty popular with many Navia players because it completely frees up your Bennett for the other side.
Navia's skill fires multiple projectiles in a spread (think of it like a shotgun), and each one that hits contributes to one total damage number that opponent takes. You fired Navia's skill from varying distances, some quite long meaning a portion of the projectiles likely missed, and that probably contributed to the varying numbers and the appearance that some skill uses just didn't crit.
Id just like to say, i found you from your kaveh video (rest in peace) and you have singlehandedly since then become my favorite youtuber WHICH IS ABNORMAL SINCE I NORMALLY DONT HAVE A FAVORITE RUclipsR LMAO- anyways youve gained a watcher for all your videos! Also i find it hilarious that you call kirara just c a t xD
i personally like running navia with noelle and furina. they can generate enough crystalize shards to fuel navia's skill dmg while providing dmg, healing, and dmg buffs. my fourth slot is a semi-flex. i usually use gorou for the geo dmg buffs (i know navia doesn't want def, but this aint about her), but this abyss has made me use xingqiu for extra hydro application, and kazuha to keep the constipated beasts and the other mobs closer together. i even used dehya in a previous abyss to give some pyro application to a pair cryo fatui gunners. tbh i didn't even think of using bennett and navia together because of Rawfler's Navia exe video lmao
Pulled Navia on a new account and I'm so glad I did. She's an absolute blast and can get me good DPS no matter how well the rest of my team comps are built right now.
SPEAKING AS SOMEONE WHO HATES BENNETT THE BORING: It's so easy to never play Bennett hahaha. It turns out having a bit more investment in your character's Artifacts does the trick. Furthermore: I love Sara with any Atk Scaler that doesn't need specifically long On-Field times, so Navia and Arlecchino, Miko, Ei and Lisa etc, coz then I can always refresh her buff whenever I want AND no circle! Sara's fantastic and people need to look past "ugh bigger number".
I think that because U backed up a bit before using skill led to less bullets hitting which leads to more dmg, so I’d recommend to stay closer to the enemy before u skill.
Ty for the info. I forgot you need to have all her bullets hit for the most dmg. Thats… a bit awkward sometimes but since you normally NA in between skill shots its not always an issue , just depends on the enemy
As a certified Bennett hater, i never use him with Navia. My favorite Naiva team is her plunge variant (Navia/Zhongli/Furina/Xianyun). No circle impact and no funneling energy for Xiangling (which is one of the most annoying things to do imo). Not to mention that my Furina and Xianyun are both at C2 so its even stronger than normal.
You’re missing with some of her bullets. If you don’t hit with all her bullets she does significantly less damage even if you have max shards. Basically you’ve gotta get right up to their face
I think a way more challenging character to try to work without Bennett is Liney xD I tried, it worked, but it wasn't pretty xD The team I was able to clear abyss was Liney with Amo's Bow, Kazuha, Zhongli and Klee with TTDS. All units were C0. The damage was ok, but it basically was dependent on Liney's DMG that wasn't that high to begin with. I'm considering on trying Liney, Kazuha, Yanfei with TTDS and Emilie in the future to see if Emilie's damage will compensate the lack of Zhongli's res shred+milleilith. I wish I had Chevreuse so I could try Liney without Bennett in a team with a buffer+healer unit xD Just didn't figure out yet what other characters I'd use in that team. Maybe Raiden + Dehya?
Haha yeah Lyney w/o Benny sounds pretty bad. Realistically the pyro archon is the main hope for repalcing Benny there. Emilie is more likely a consideration to replace XL as an off field dmg option, but maybe Emilie can be strong enough on her own to balance the loss of Bennett
As a Navia main who dislikes Bennett (I make all decisions in this game character story and personality wise, nothing with meta) I can say: I'm glad, she's amazing without him. I tried giving her an electro team with 2-geo-2-electro, 2-geo-2-cryo cause i also liked Wriothesley a lot and somehow tried getting two DPS work (it didn't as much) - but! The very best team I found for myself is Navia, another Geo (i think Zhongli is the absolute best 2nd geo character for casual players) and then with the 2 hydro you have a lot of room. Since I am not the best, a healer is mandatory. I don't have Kokomi but i like Barbara more anyways, so she's the immediate choice. And then the next best off-field hydro application I know and have AND like is Yelan, so that has been my team ever since Navia release. I've done everything with this team except for puzzles that required other elements. They can b r e a k everyone.
I've settled on running Navia/Furina/Chiori(C1)/Kokomi as the standard team for Navia, with her on 4pc MH. It's pretty comfy all around, gets good resonance bonuses and between Kokomi on Prototype Amber and the crystallise shields has solid sustain.
I personally use Dori on new healer set because she can proc it multiple times and it only buffs like 6 hits which is perfect for Navia’s short skill usage time. That with Furina for drain, I remember hitting 10k shy of 300k with her skill (I have her signature c0 and maybe that was during her debut so abyss probably had buffs) and for bennet it was similar numbers or less during that time frame, although I was not using the bennet + Furina combo.
The team I run my Navia in a bit right now is my Siggy "no getting carried by Furina" experimental team. It uses Siggy, Chiori, Navia, and Raiden. Raiden being who I settled on after trying a few other characters in that slot, and her (c3 with traditional damage dealer build) being the best character I could come up with for good on-field, helps team, good elemental app, while not wasting Siggy charges. Nice thing about electrocharged is you can crystalize off it, so you can have crystalizes and some bonus damage. I used this team on one side of the Abyss this last reset, and it helped clear with a 1m or more spare time in every chamber, but that's with the caveat that I have cons on those five stars, and they are well geared with their signature weapons. Anyway, I wouldn't use Navia with Benny myself, even if I had him built, because I mostly use my Navia to support my Chiori, rather than the other way around. Navia is there to assassinate any higher hp target, and I don't want to worry about rotation or doing set up to do that, plus Choiri and the rest of my teams, plus Navia's burst, will already have reduced the hp of the mobs a bunch anyway. She doesn't need extra attack if the enemy's hp is already significantly reduced. So I want to just have her go bang, and then maybe bang again. That said, besides Benny and Chev, you overlooked Sara. She's clunky and not really worth using, without sufficient elemental application to make Navia happy. As far as atk% goes, there's also Lynette, for 20% attack, but that drops if you are running double geo and anemo/VV doesn't mesh well with geo. And, well, Navia adds up to 40% atk herself, which reduces the impact of other sources of it, as far as a percentage increase in damage goes.
You can get attack buffs without Bennett too. With c2 Furina you can have Sigewinne using Elegy+Tenacity, Ninggaung using TTDS+Nobless. Then Navia should make like 400k a shot.
my main team is Zhongli(Noelle is decent sub), Kokomi(can be switched with barbara if need koko for another abyss team), Navia, & Furina(sometimes subbing with Xingqui if using Furina for another team in abyss). Allows plenty of mindless safety and crystalize. Double geo for enemies geo res lowering, extra damage, & stronger shield. Double hydro for extra HP(which translates to more shield and damage). Tank team go buuuuuur~
Even Dehya doesn't need him, as you can build teams that are as effective by simply not making her your carry. Let the rest of the team do nice off-field damage, and benefit from her toughness so you're never not doing damage (even 12-3 dancing duo's damage you can shrug off). Plus she doesn't snapshot and loves to move around during her burst anyway, so he's really not ideal for her.
@@Meese12 well theres cases like arlechino, yoimiya, basically any atk scaling dps that likes the white tassel or slingshot, where their f2p best in slot weapon is a 3* because of the crit and decent passive
@@Axterix13 well that part was mostly a joke but if you want dehya to do any meaningful amount of damage you do want bennet, a team with dehya in it doesnt need bennet, but dehys's damage needs bennet. the most effective dehya teams are probably just her running a support tenacity build or burgeon anyway. even at c1 when her damage spikes, she needs bennet because she starts building hp and bennet balances it with the attack buff, also dehya's best sub dps option is xiangling, and her best performing team where she assumes a dps role is mono pyro. a team with xiangling is a team with bennet. I don't even like bennet his circle is annoying, I love dehya so i work around it
With Navia, I just put random characters of each element cause I like colorful teams. I use Navia/Kaeya/Xinqiu/Arle a lot in overworld. I don’t really care for practicality it’s just my favorites all in one team lol. I got my first Bennet on the Alhaitham banner and his punishment now is to collect dust.
my personal favorite navia team is her, neuvilette, furina, and kazuha, with navia on archaic petra. She does big boom and i get to laser beam people with neuv
I don’t think you were supposed to but him with her I feel that’s the reason they gave her 40% passive boost and kit that requires moving around, if you wanted pyro effect on her then use pyro DPS like Yanfei with Xiangling for quick rotation plus Yanfei got C4 shield and can use ttds for actual fun team.
I've replaced Bennet on my Arlecchino Overload team with a C6 Elegy Noblese Amber. It's not nearly as high of an ATK buff compared to Bennet but it essentially trades the difference in ATK for 100 extra EM. Which is honestly worth the like 200-300 ATK difference if it means I don't have to play circle impact and worry about the self Pyro aura on Arlecchino fucking me over. My C6 Arlecchino is going to shred things either way. Here's to hoping that Natlan finally brings actual competition to both Xiangling and Bennet.
@@kibathefang6022 It’s definitely still good without cons on Arlecchino. The team I use is Raiden, Chevreuse, Amber, Arlecchino. It’s nice having essentially 100% up time on Electro-app/ Chevy buffs/ Amber+Noblesse+Elegy buffs all without having to play around a circle.
I personally prefer to use her with Furina and WGS to balance her Atk vs Dmg% buffs, largely because I only have 1 serpent spine that is wanted by other characters on my account.
Personally been running Diona and Rosaria for all the Crit buffs. Game refuses to give me decent crit rate for my Navia artifacts. The damage ain't as big as Benny's buff, but the constant crits on Navia's skill has been nice. Besides it's always nice to find alternatives. Don't want deal with Pyro immune enemies in Natlan when Hoyo decides to be rude.
maybe you don't see the same damage from HER in particular in all those teams but the team damage is pretty comparable, something i'm trying to tell people with many chars and actual scenarios that exist in the game where beloved hypercarries or fullteamsetups are not being better than other choices in practice granted you'll have to invest in all chars in those teams and thats where i think the biggest issue comes into play for some people but it mostly feels like we are still stuck in the past where you only had one character with investment
lmao no way, this came up in my feed just as I was building a bennett-less navia team. I got Verdict on this weapon banner and i realized that all the natural atk% she gets in her kit when combined with the ridiculous base atk and extra atk% given by that weapon makes the pyro resonance and Bennett's buff kinda overkill (i was getting like 4.3k atk) so I figured an MH build with furina and noelle could potentially balance her stats a lot better and increase her damage. I havent seen the video yet but if this is what you end up doing im losing my mind. Edit: as always I underestimate the creativity of soluna
Lol haha for once I didnt use MH! But yeah you pretty much have the idea, wherein the relative values of different stats can make different stats more relevant (and therefore different stats characters give to your character relative to their weapon changes the relevance of things like a character signature weapon). MH should be a better build for Navia with Furina than my 2pc combos btw, but I actually found I didnt like MH with Navia since she can be more quickswappy, and MH forces you to lose a bit of HP on Navia, and with how Furinas attack timing draining HP is kinda variable that means you dont want to shoot right after swapping to Navia, which imo is an annoying consideration when playing her. I noticed multiple times while testing MH that I didnt crit likely because I didnt let Mh stacks buildup. Its one of those cases wherein it is “optimal” to use MH, but the awkwardness of getting the optimal value from it may make it less relevant in practice
@@Solunerra you were right about MH - with Noelle doing the NAs in my rotations i was only left time to swap in and skill and i couldnt build any stacks. Figured that out after floundering in abyss for about 20 minutes. While MH didnt work out, the team was a lot of fun. You get into a nice rhythm of swapping back and forth between building fanfare on noelle and using Navia's skill. Still havent found a 4th unit i love in that slot, i was playing around with Pamber mona but i dont have her fully built.
I've never liked bennet but navia's nice enough that she moreso just needs applicators instead of buffers, leading to me usually running xq/fischl/zhongli for most of my time as her but sometimes mona too as something more funny.
I really like running navia with a double Geo double Electro comp. No particular reason it's electro. I know Dbl Pyro gives 25% Atk and that's great but I actively avoid using Bennet as it's genshin easy more to me, same reason I don't use Shield Zhongli. Aside from him and xiangling Pyro doesn't have a ton when it comes to off field presence essentially when you need crystallize. Electro on the other had has tons of good off fielders, having more options because the characters are in less demand.
@@menuvafei6164 No. But the only reason why no one really uses it is because the user has to pick the shard. Otherwise everyone would use it. And Navia's skill picks it up without issue.
Benette is very good and universal there's no doubt. But people forget that Mona provides a flat 60% dmg increase which would with adequate recharge makes her a second benette.
Like it's funny because people put all this money into the game, they miss their 50/50's and are probably sitting on level 20 C6 Mona dmg cannons not because their knowledge is lacking but because they don't value the units they miss their rolls on.
i think what makes me sad is that the trend of characters like gorou cheveruse faruzan and the other hyper niche support characters started with sara, a character that could have been an alternative to bennet but instead was a unit that needed a c6 to even be a great electro support.....its just sad man her attack buff seems so interesting and it just doesnt also fun fact while its not THE BIGGEST thing ever but for niche physical teams cheveruse can be used as a bad bennett alternative cause you will be able to get her overchage balls for the attack buff, the same basically goes for any team that has any overload but isnt pure overload
Honestly I just put her on a dual dps team with Noelle, Gorou, and Raiden. Shards every, geo buff, noblesse buff, and tons of energy for Noelle. It works way better than it probably should lol.
Love Navia but I don't think 12-1-1 of the current Abyss is that great for her normal playstyle or plunge, there's just too much AoE and too many chances of her skills to miss. Not having Bennett in the team does help with her lack in of AoE and mobility, I'm a fan of ToTM Kuki or Mika if I'm feeling spicy.
While the team format is kinda generic, Furina Xianyun Ning/Zhongli Navia absolutely slaps. My Navia is C0 and deals around 1.3 million damage per rotation. After each skill usage she can perfectly fit 4 geo-infused plunge attacks so you get huge sustained damage in addition to the big nukes. 10/10 would recommend!
Question if a support that shred geo def comes out will that Lower the diminishing returns if shes paired w bennett? cuz I swear when i use Wgs W my navia and try to compare it w my ssr1 the damage is the same where i try bennett ningguang xiangling.. If i didnt make myself too clear just ask
Its not that crazy to forget about a atk buffer that they managed to make more niche than Chevreuse, who literally restricts her team comps to 2 elements. I shouldve mentioned her to be clear, but its not like shes actually that important in the scope of the conversation about atk buffers in the game, sadly. Heck, I dont even like using her with Raiden, who she was made for…
Yeah I played around a bit with plunge. Its obviously pretty decent, though not necessarily the strongest way to use Xianyun. Xianyun is just a good buffing option
My Benny is lvl 90, 4pc Noblesse & an Alley Flash (don.'t have Aquila) but I just haven't used him in over a year. My Navia is C0R1 & has 4pc Whispers & does just fine without him on severals teams I've tested, my favourite being plunge.
@@Solunerra that's pretty much what I was using him for until I shelved him, pyro Qiqi combined with Kazuha buff & sunfire Jean was a riot, if impractical in most scenarios.
2+2 Geo and pyro is the best combination for Navia. Especially for Abyss and bosses However, if use Bennett with her are restricted yourself within his circle Moreover, Navia lose 200 base attack with compared with +2 pyro In my example any elemental combinations it's 2.861 attack but with +2 pyro it went 3.061 attack Is worthy that 200 base attack difference for Navia ? 🤷
Personally from my experience soluna I do nav Benny shong Rosa idk why I prefer it over furina in there instead of Rosa cause Rosa buffs more Consistency and comfort plus Rosa's skill DMG boost is nice cause nuke Rosa go burr
My Bennett is C6 in this video. It doesnt overwrite Navia, or most characters self infusion. The onty context I found that Bennett C6 overwriting an infusion being an issue for me was with DPS Lynette. Though I could also argue that a pyro infusion is stronger for her than Anemo infusion lol. Other than that it can be problematic for units that generally arent being paired with Bennett, like Eula or Ayaka (though fot Ayaka it gives her high potential for use with fun burgeon melt stuff Ive seen)
Oh shit really? I didn't know that LOL 🤣 I assumed it did since it overwrote my ayaka's infusion, so now I just use bennett with pyro characters like arlecchino and all that, never did experiment around. Now I know I will use bennett with my navia!
@@YesNoDK The easiest way to find out of Bennett C6 overwrites or not is reading the Talent that infuses As long as: „Cannot be overwritten “ is in the text everything is fine
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I understood what you were saying cuz I'm familiar with the game math, but I don't think I heard you put much emphasis/clarification on diminishing returns. Explaining that more could help newer players understand how to build other teams/characters differently
I personally LOVE my Furina Yelan Navia Noelle team. It has so much common damage bonus, I've used genshin optimizer to confirm that every single one of them would rather have an atk/def/hp goblet than a damage percent one. This is of course with some artifact limitations on my account, but it's definitely true for the best invested ones as well
That's because that stuff doesn't have diminishing returns. If 20% attack adds 1k damage, then 20% more will add another 1k. That's a flat return.
What does happen, due to how atk%, DMG, and CrD interact, is changes in the opportunity cost. So we really should be discussing IOC (increased opportunity cost), where, due to raising attack, DMG and CrD now have more value than they did before, and so you might want to shift focus due to that.
Ty for the comment, may actually pin it lol.
Most of the time when the community calls stuff diminishing returns its not actually diminishing returns. Which is why I avoid using the term. What I was talking about with the relative value of atk% with and without Bennett actually IS what most of the community calls diminishing returns (which it isnt). The community basically uses the term as a catch all to describe when you could be better served by getting more of another stat vs going too much into just one stat.
So I try to make sure I describe things by how they increase your damage a set amount (most scaling in the game is linear), but the relative value you gain from the baseline changes depending on what other stats you have from other things. Because you have multiple linear scalings going on for different stats in the games damage calculation, there are breakpoints that mean different stats have different relative values to each other (but not unto themselves)
Genshin DOES have one thing that does have actual diminishing returns on its scaling, by the way, which is EM scaling for transformative reactions dmg calculation. There is a falloff such that you can see less of a dmg increase per extra point of EM you have. Which is to say EM’s value changes relative to ITSELF, which is real diminishing returns. Its not linear. Eg you get significantly less of a dmg increase from 200 em for hyperbloom dmg going from 1000->1200 em as you do 800->1000. Atk, dmg%, and crit are all linear in comparison.
If there wasnt anything in the game that actually had diminishing scaling Id be less concerned about calling relative stat values “diminishing.” I do think its fine to specifically say something like “dmg% has diminishing returns relative to atk% in [insert context]”, but I also think that using diminishing along with “relative” is pointless since just “relative” communicates the same idea on its own, and makes it more confusing to talk about EM (which actually has both non diminishing and diminishing returns depending on the reaction lol) and its relationship to elemental reactions (imo by far the most relevant mechanics in the game)
But anyways, you are absolutely correct that with the options for saturating dmg% available to us now there are many times where non element% goblets can be worse stat for stat. Most of the time element% is still better, but especially with the 5.0 artifacts it will be more an more common that they are worse. Thats actually the same thing I actually talked about with atk% in this video btw, wherein its due to the relative values of different stats from the baseline, not because there is actually falloff in the scaling of dmg%.
@@Axterix13 yes, I like the idea of IOC too. A good way to look at it as well
@@Solunerra oh, I didn't realize diminishing returns referred to a hard built-in reduction of the value of something like EM. If you'd still like to pin my comment for newer players, should I change my wording to "increased opportunity cost" as someone else said? That seems to be a good way to put it
Thanks for the explanation, I'll try to be more careful in the future!
Yes! I often use the team Noelle, Navia, Furina, Xingqiu. It really works great. I hope I can get Yelan this time.
One of my fastest Abyss teams is Navia, Furina, Xianyun, Chiori. I think it’s pretty fun to alternate Gunbrella shots with geo plunges. It’s also just so nice to not be constrained to a small circle.
ive got everybody but xianyun and im not interested in pullin
do you have any idea who could be good instead of xianyun (preferably not bennet cuz i need him for my arle)
@@littlehamham3281charlotte (can use tenacity on her and noblesse on someone else), barbara, siegewinne (works pretty well with furina and chiori) or noelle as on-field dps (quickswap navia with 4pc GT)
@@littlehamham3281 charlotte (can use tenacity and noblesse on someone else), barbara (underated), noelle on field dps (quickswap navia with 4pc GT)
@@littlehamham3281 Sigewinne (but not sure if you'd have her). Any other healer can work but it would depend on Energy and/or more on-field time, like charlotte, barbara or kokomi, and all of these would not add much to the team besides fanfarre. Which not necessarily is a bad thing, but just a thing to consider.
@@littlehamham3281 Dori, especially if you have her at C6. Plenty of electro app. Plenty of healing for Furina. With C6, her E lets her heal the team with some melee attacks, so nice and mobile. Electro-charged is extra damage and can be crystalized off of.
The suffering trying to make Navia crit at 7:36 lmfao. I feel that. My Navia with EIGHTY-TWO crit rate once went about six or eight skills in a row without landing a single crit.
Navia's shrapnel hits very inconsistently, so you might have done everything right and missed some shrapnels leading to a smaller number.
It's preferable to rely on an auto targeting with her (tap skill instead of hold skill), at least in a situation where you have a single enemy close by.
If you want to hit multiple enemies it's better to manual, but still keep in mind results will vary from shot to shot.
Good to know
It is pretty consistent, provided you aim well enough (so probably easier on PC than mobile). But yeah, I agree that tapping is the way to go for a single enemy. It's also what you want to do for the first shot, typically, as the hold E vacuums in any crystals, which, if you are doing 2 Es within a short time frame, you'll want for the second shot. Of course, if you lack ammo, then hold E even on the first to gather them crystals.
Using navia quick swap with golden troupe keeps her damage output high enough that it doesn’t seem to matter, and I’ve fit her into basically every 3 team core like this. Swap in, drop 200k, swap out.
Exactly this!!
I use either Noelle-Navia-Furina-Fischl or, for comfort, Noelle-Navia-Furina-Mika and it just clears everything it needs to with incredible healing, shielding and great AoE.
When I first saw how many particles Navia's E creates, I immediately knew I'm making her into a battery for Noelle :D
It's interesting that you brought up the example of Arlecchino having Bennett versus Navia since I don't run Bennett with either of them. I find both of their scalings are so high that Bennett either feels like overkill or waste, but that comes with Zhongli as a caveat. I use him in both of their teams for easy shred and tenacity, and for Navia specifically the geo resonance. Almost every unit that came out in Fontaine, with the exception of Wriothesley and Lyney didn't need to have Bennett with them, which was nice.
For reference of the teams I do use, for anyone curious:
Navia (Wolf's Gravestone), Miko, Fischl, Zhongli
Arlecchino (I switch between Jade Spear and White Tassel but there isn't that big of a difference), Noblesse Mona, Xingqiu, Zhongli (Layla can be a replacement, but she near guarantees I need to use Jade Spear)
one of my favourite recent videos from you. i have a few additional pointers to share:
1. kachina with the new support set coming soon in 5.0 will be valuable for navia (she's doing almost nothing without said set, it's a must), likely competitive with c0 chiori. if you absolutely die-hard NEED bennett on the other side (e.g. childe or lyney, who have very poor synergy with other buffers like yelan and furina), you can run something like kachina + furina + xianyun/kokomi with navia.
2. in general, niche supports should not be overlooked that much because the value of freeing up your other supports for the other side in abyss is very high as long as you need that freeing up. if bennett is unavailable, but for example you have shenhe to go with wriothesley, or yunjin to go with yoimiya, you won't be stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to deciding whether to make a cope substitution for one of your two teams (e.g. dehya onto the lyney team), or straight up throw away that second team and use a completely different team altogether that you may not have built properly.
3. this has been mentioned by the pinned comment and its comment chain, but the concept of increased opportunity cost also has to be mentioned more across the genshin community. the reason it gets miswritten by many as diminishing returns is that DR is basically thought of as a simpler way to explain the concept of focusing more on one offensive stat at the expense of another leading to inferior total dps output compared to the optimal ratio of the stats (a very over-simplified example is that if you can add 50 to either side of 100*150, you'd rather add it to the lower number because 150*150=22500 > 100*200=20000) when that is not really the case from a strictly mathematical standpoint. real DR comes in the form of EM, and there's also hard caps like CR at 100%, but IOC tends to be more relevant than DR, because IOC is the one that applies, not DR, when you're looking at how your ayaka might do more damage on a 250 CD 2300 atk build than a 300 CD 1900 atk build (partly because of blizzard strayer + her anti-synergy with bennett). IOC is the term that better explains the idea that when you get an upgrade of 1 more atk substat, it scales your dps differently than if it had been 1 more CR/CD/EM/(even ER for emblem users) substat instead, but in practice, 1 more substat is much less likely to be the difference between getting 35* and 36* in comparison to simply learning to play the team rotation better and dodge enemy attack patterns better.
Can you explain the Kachina thing? I recently got Navia and was targeting Kazuha as my next pull, but if this new character has particularly good synergy with Navia...
So moral of the story here is you can replace Bennett with Furina in your Navia teams 👍
Yeah, you can use different buffers lol, but that wasnt really the point. Obviously Furina is a good buffer for her, but there is actually cooldown timing awkwardness that can arise with Furina. I wouldve used her w/o Furina in the abyss but it was basically necessary for second half. The main point I was trying to make was showing how Benny changes the value of atk%, which was also shown with the Furina team (to potentially even greater extent due to having a lot of dmg bonus already from Furina, so Gravestone shouldve been better than SS there too)
Sara has bennett level attack buff but isn't a healer, pick her and just don't get hit.
Yeah I shouldve mentiomed Sara. Her attack buff window is really bad. I did kinda forget her but sadly Hoyo decided to make her hyper niche. I never even enjoyed using Sara with Raiden
I really like Sara in a aggravate quick swap team. She has high scaling multipliers for dmg. C2 make her buffing window better and Sac Bow gives high base atk and ER which she really likes. I slot her on a team with Tighnari and Raiden and a flex slot. She fits well imo
What do you mean Bennett level attack buff? Sara's attack buff is only 2/3 of what Bennett can give. For non Electro characters, that's worse than Bennett. For Electro, since also with 60% crit dmg then good.
I have sara c6 just recently raised her and I find her kit difficult still lol
Sara is NOT a Bennet level attack buff. yes, she buffs your attack, but due to her weaker scaling, her atk buff is only ~66% of Benny's atk buff. and that's not even mentioning the awkward timing it has in comparison
I love using her, but only cuz she's C6 with my C2 Raiden
Just randomly popped into this video after getting Navia and damn bro you have such a soothing voice.
arle fischl beidou chev never fails me. Gives me freedom to run Navia Furina Xiang n Bennett
I use Thoma instead of Beidou!!! Same team otherwise!!!
@@sarahc5608if you have a high-ish constellation Beidou (c2 and c4 are very nice, mine is C6) and like her and her playstyle, I definitely recommend building her and trying that team with her :)
My fave Arlecchino team is the double hydro with Yelan and Xingqiu, or Furina + Xingqiu/Yelan + Bennett/Zhongli/Kazuha but the overload one is also really fun
Yep I really like Bennett-less Chev teams too
@@Solunerra Using Bennett in Chevreuse team sounds like grieving to me
I met someone that used c6 Amber with Elegy for the theater. The buff she provided was basically on par with Bennett and made up the fact you can only use characters twice.
The visual indicator for the extra 40% atk buff on WGS is a red wolf head flashing above your character’s head (when it’s first triggered, so not an indicator for whether it’s active at any given moment) - you can see it around 8:04
🗣"i created another univer-"
Sigewinne, Furina & Albedo/Chiori are super comfy for Navia
sigewinne furina core so comfy for all dps
Yeah Sige/Furina core is super universal lol
If you have C6 Dori, you can upgrade from Siggy as well.
@@Axterix13c6 dori and sigewinne are both good units but they arent really comparable
ive never used bennet because i dislike his character and its really nice to see strong teams without him, it gives me hope that i will one day beat floor 12
You're onto something I've been workshopping where if im presented a situation where I want to run two typical Bennett teams, ill just use Furina on one side and use an ATK% goblet on the character she pairs with.
I feel like that's part of the reason as to why Plunge Navia is pretty popular with many Navia players because it completely frees up your Bennett for the other side.
Navia's skill fires multiple projectiles in a spread (think of it like a shotgun), and each one that hits contributes to one total damage number that opponent takes. You fired Navia's skill from varying distances, some quite long meaning a portion of the projectiles likely missed, and that probably contributed to the varying numbers and the appearance that some skill uses just didn't crit.
Navia is awesome sauce she’s genuinely op
I think shes fairly balanced actually. Definitely strong though
Wolves gravestone does have a visual indicator of a wolf silhouette in red on the right side of the chatacter
Id just like to say, i found you from your kaveh video (rest in peace) and you have singlehandedly since then become my favorite youtuber WHICH IS ABNORMAL SINCE I NORMALLY DONT HAVE A FAVORITE RUclipsR LMAO- anyways youve gained a watcher for all your videos! Also i find it hilarious that you call kirara just c a t xD
Did everyone forget Kujou Sara? She's an attack buffer right?😭
They only remember for eletro dpss
her attack buff lasts incredibly short
@@PlebBora to be fair navia doesnt really need more than a second or 2 of buff, holding e for half a second is enough for her
I did lol but she’s basically useless as a generic attack buffer for most units in the game. We need more generic atk buffers, not hyper niche ones
@@Solunerra She's good for quickswap tho, she can battery anyone very well. Though I don't see many people liking that playstyle.
i personally like running navia with noelle and furina. they can generate enough crystalize shards to fuel navia's skill dmg while providing dmg, healing, and dmg buffs. my fourth slot is a semi-flex. i usually use gorou for the geo dmg buffs (i know navia doesn't want def, but this aint about her), but this abyss has made me use xingqiu for extra hydro application, and kazuha to keep the constipated beasts and the other mobs closer together. i even used dehya in a previous abyss to give some pyro application to a pair cryo fatui gunners. tbh i didn't even think of using bennett and navia together because of Rawfler's Navia exe video lmao
Not everyone need Bennett, the more people realize this sooner the better.
if u have furina + healer ofc lol, if not then u need benny
Pulled Navia on a new account and I'm so glad I did. She's an absolute blast and can get me good DPS no matter how well the rest of my team comps are built right now.
loved the video! i never saw navia as this kind of flex slot dps and love such an idea
SPEAKING AS SOMEONE WHO HATES BENNETT THE BORING:
It's so easy to never play Bennett hahaha. It turns out having a bit more investment in your character's Artifacts does the trick. Furthermore: I love Sara with any Atk Scaler that doesn't need specifically long On-Field times, so Navia and Arlecchino, Miko, Ei and Lisa etc, coz then I can always refresh her buff whenever I want AND no circle!
Sara's fantastic and people need to look past "ugh bigger number".
I think that because U backed up a bit before using skill led to less bullets hitting which leads to more dmg, so I’d recommend to stay closer to the enemy before u skill.
Ty for the info. I forgot you need to have all her bullets hit for the most dmg. Thats… a bit awkward sometimes but since you normally NA in between skill shots its not always an issue , just depends on the enemy
As a certified Bennett hater, i never use him with Navia. My favorite Naiva team is her plunge variant (Navia/Zhongli/Furina/Xianyun). No circle impact and no funneling energy for Xiangling (which is one of the most annoying things to do imo). Not to mention that my Furina and Xianyun are both at C2 so its even stronger than normal.
Yes! This is what I'm explaining to my friend the other day. Take away a stat and supply another, will basically have a sorta similar result...
Damn this chanel is really coming clutch lately
hahaha i was struggling with this problem for a long time including navia and arlecchino and you made a video on it 😂 luck
You’re missing with some of her bullets. If you don’t hit with all her bullets she does significantly less damage even if you have max shards. Basically you’ve gotta get right up to their face
You don't need Bennett for her she works without him. You can use double hydro and geo core.
Sigewinne, Furina, Navia and Chiori C1
I think a way more challenging character to try to work without Bennett is Liney xD
I tried, it worked, but it wasn't pretty xD
The team I was able to clear abyss was Liney with Amo's Bow, Kazuha, Zhongli and Klee with TTDS. All units were C0. The damage was ok, but it basically was dependent on Liney's DMG that wasn't that high to begin with.
I'm considering on trying Liney, Kazuha, Yanfei with TTDS and Emilie in the future to see if Emilie's damage will compensate the lack of Zhongli's res shred+milleilith.
I wish I had Chevreuse so I could try Liney without Bennett in a team with a buffer+healer unit xD
Just didn't figure out yet what other characters I'd use in that team. Maybe Raiden + Dehya?
Haha yeah Lyney w/o Benny sounds pretty bad. Realistically the pyro archon is the main hope for repalcing Benny there. Emilie is more likely a consideration to replace XL as an off field dmg option, but maybe Emilie can be strong enough on her own to balance the loss of Bennett
never ever put Bennet in Navia's team, she still slap some cheeks with 150k crit damage from single E
As a Navia main who dislikes Bennett (I make all decisions in this game character story and personality wise, nothing with meta) I can say: I'm glad, she's amazing without him. I tried giving her an electro team with 2-geo-2-electro, 2-geo-2-cryo cause i also liked Wriothesley a lot and somehow tried getting two DPS work (it didn't as much) - but! The very best team I found for myself is Navia, another Geo (i think Zhongli is the absolute best 2nd geo character for casual players) and then with the 2 hydro you have a lot of room. Since I am not the best, a healer is mandatory. I don't have Kokomi but i like Barbara more anyways, so she's the immediate choice. And then the next best off-field hydro application I know and have AND like is Yelan, so that has been my team ever since Navia release. I've done everything with this team except for puzzles that required other elements. They can b r e a k everyone.
My Favourite was Navia/Furina/Barbara/Albedo
i really really hope the pyro archon can work with navia. my wanderer is suffering without bennett's atk buff 😭😭
That 227k was nutz at the end
I've settled on running Navia/Furina/Chiori(C1)/Kokomi as the standard team for Navia, with her on 4pc MH. It's pretty comfy all around, gets good resonance bonuses and between Kokomi on Prototype Amber and the crystallise shields has solid sustain.
I personally use Dori on new healer set because she can proc it multiple times and it only buffs like 6 hits which is perfect for Navia’s short skill usage time. That with Furina for drain, I remember hitting 10k shy of 300k with her skill (I have her signature c0 and maybe that was during her debut so abyss probably had buffs) and for bennet it was similar numbers or less during that time frame, although I was not using the bennet + Furina combo.
8:14 the 40% atk passive was triggered. The indicator is the red wolf above Navia’s head seen at 8:05
The team I run my Navia in a bit right now is my Siggy "no getting carried by Furina" experimental team. It uses Siggy, Chiori, Navia, and Raiden. Raiden being who I settled on after trying a few other characters in that slot, and her (c3 with traditional damage dealer build) being the best character I could come up with for good on-field, helps team, good elemental app, while not wasting Siggy charges. Nice thing about electrocharged is you can crystalize off it, so you can have crystalizes and some bonus damage. I used this team on one side of the Abyss this last reset, and it helped clear with a 1m or more spare time in every chamber, but that's with the caveat that I have cons on those five stars, and they are well geared with their signature weapons.
Anyway, I wouldn't use Navia with Benny myself, even if I had him built, because I mostly use my Navia to support my Chiori, rather than the other way around. Navia is there to assassinate any higher hp target, and I don't want to worry about rotation or doing set up to do that, plus Choiri and the rest of my teams, plus Navia's burst, will already have reduced the hp of the mobs a bunch anyway. She doesn't need extra attack if the enemy's hp is already significantly reduced. So I want to just have her go bang, and then maybe bang again.
That said, besides Benny and Chev, you overlooked Sara. She's clunky and not really worth using, without sufficient elemental application to make Navia happy. As far as atk% goes, there's also Lynette, for 20% attack, but that drops if you are running double geo and anemo/VV doesn't mesh well with geo. And, well, Navia adds up to 40% atk herself, which reduces the impact of other sources of it, as far as a percentage increase in damage goes.
You don't need Ben with Navia plunge and Furina. Furina-Navia-Xian-Zhong
You can get attack buffs without Bennett too.
With c2 Furina you can have Sigewinne using Elegy+Tenacity, Ninggaung using TTDS+Nobless. Then Navia should make like 400k a shot.
navia furina sigewinne chiori is rllyy comfy and fun
my main team is Zhongli(Noelle is decent sub), Kokomi(can be switched with barbara if need koko for another abyss team), Navia, & Furina(sometimes subbing with Xingqui if using Furina for another team in abyss). Allows plenty of mindless safety and crystalize. Double geo for enemies geo res lowering, extra damage, & stronger shield. Double hydro for extra HP(which translates to more shield and damage). Tank team go buuuuuur~
I think he's only actually necessary when you run a low base attack 3*/4* weapon for the crit, or you're dehya
Even Dehya doesn't need him, as you can build teams that are as effective by simply not making her your carry. Let the rest of the team do nice off-field damage, and benefit from her toughness so you're never not doing damage (even 12-3 dancing duo's damage you can shrug off). Plus she doesn't snapshot and loves to move around during her burst anyway, so he's really not ideal for her.
He can make up for low base atk 4 stars but if you have a 3 star weapon equipped on a character it generally means that they dont scale off of atk
@@Meese12 well theres cases like arlechino, yoimiya, basically any atk scaling dps that likes the white tassel or slingshot, where their f2p best in slot weapon is a 3* because of the crit and decent passive
@@Axterix13 well that part was mostly a joke but if you want dehya to do any meaningful amount of damage you do want bennet, a team with dehya in it doesnt need bennet, but dehys's damage needs bennet. the most effective dehya teams are probably just her running a support tenacity build or burgeon anyway. even at c1 when her damage spikes, she needs bennet because she starts building hp and bennet balances it with the attack buff, also dehya's best sub dps option is xiangling, and her best performing team where she assumes a dps role is mono pyro. a team with xiangling is a team with bennet. I don't even like bennet his circle is annoying, I love dehya so i work around it
@@purple455 good point, forgot about them
With Navia, I just put random characters of each element cause I like colorful teams. I use Navia/Kaeya/Xinqiu/Arle a lot in overworld. I don’t really care for practicality it’s just my favorites all in one team lol. I got my first Bennet on the Alhaitham banner and his punishment now is to collect dust.
my personal favorite navia team is her, neuvilette, furina, and kazuha, with navia on archaic petra. She does big boom and i get to laser beam people with neuv
I don’t think you were supposed to but him with her I feel that’s the reason they gave her 40% passive boost and kit that requires moving around, if you wanted pyro effect on her then use pyro DPS like Yanfei with Xiangling for quick rotation plus Yanfei got C4 shield and can use ttds for actual fun team.
I've replaced Bennet on my Arlecchino Overload team with a C6 Elegy Noblese Amber. It's not nearly as high of an ATK buff compared to Bennet but it essentially trades the difference in ATK for 100 extra EM. Which is honestly worth the like 200-300 ATK difference if it means I don't have to play circle impact and worry about the self Pyro aura on Arlecchino fucking me over. My C6 Arlecchino is going to shred things either way. Here's to hoping that Natlan finally brings actual competition to both Xiangling and Bennet.
You had me in the first half lol. Who cares about Bennett if you're Arlecchino is C6 anyway. Of course it's better to lose circle impact.
@@kibathefang6022 It’s definitely still good without cons on Arlecchino. The team I use is Raiden, Chevreuse, Amber, Arlecchino. It’s nice having essentially 100% up time on Electro-app/ Chevy buffs/ Amber+Noblesse+Elegy buffs all without having to play around a circle.
Im a Navia main that doesn't run a Benny and yet I still hit 190k 😅😅😅
I personally prefer to use her with Furina and WGS to balance her Atk vs Dmg% buffs, largely because I only have 1 serpent spine that is wanted by other characters on my account.
kujo sara is another attack bufffer that people forget exists. 1:27
Personally been running Diona and Rosaria for all the Crit buffs. Game refuses to give me decent crit rate for my Navia artifacts. The damage ain't as big as Benny's buff, but the constant crits on Navia's skill has been nice.
Besides it's always nice to find alternatives. Don't want deal with Pyro immune enemies in Natlan when Hoyo decides to be rude.
I used her in a furina xianyun and she does 150k skills and about 40-50k plunges. It's definitely worth trying
The best lesson for this is just use SS with the crit circlet because a nuke character really wants to crit.
double hydro with chiori furina sigewinne is my favorite navia team. so comfortable and i get to play all fontaine characters together ^_^
maybe you don't see the same damage from HER in particular in all those teams but the team damage is pretty comparable, something i'm trying to tell people with many chars and actual scenarios that exist in the game where beloved hypercarries or fullteamsetups are not being better than other choices in practice
granted you'll have to invest in all chars in those teams and thats where i think the biggest issue comes into play for some people but it mostly feels like we are still stuck in the past where you only had one character with investment
lmao no way, this came up in my feed just as I was building a bennett-less navia team.
I got Verdict on this weapon banner and i realized that all the natural atk% she gets in her kit when combined with the ridiculous base atk and extra atk% given by that weapon makes the pyro resonance and Bennett's buff kinda overkill (i was getting like 4.3k atk) so I figured an MH build with furina and noelle could potentially balance her stats a lot better and increase her damage. I havent seen the video yet but if this is what you end up doing im losing my mind.
Edit: as always I underestimate the creativity of soluna
Lol haha for once I didnt use MH! But yeah you pretty much have the idea, wherein the relative values of different stats can make different stats more relevant (and therefore different stats characters give to your character relative to their weapon changes the relevance of things like a character signature weapon).
MH should be a better build for Navia with Furina than my 2pc combos btw, but I actually found I didnt like MH with Navia since she can be more quickswappy, and MH forces you to lose a bit of HP on Navia, and with how Furinas attack timing draining HP is kinda variable that means you dont want to shoot right after swapping to Navia, which imo is an annoying consideration when playing her. I noticed multiple times while testing MH that I didnt crit likely because I didnt let Mh stacks buildup. Its one of those cases wherein it is “optimal” to use MH, but the awkwardness of getting the optimal value from it may make it less relevant in practice
@@Solunerra you were right about MH - with Noelle doing the NAs in my rotations i was only left time to swap in and skill and i couldnt build any stacks. Figured that out after floundering in abyss for about 20 minutes.
While MH didnt work out, the team was a lot of fun. You get into a nice rhythm of swapping back and forth between building fanfare on noelle and using Navia's skill. Still havent found a 4th unit i love in that slot, i was playing around with Pamber mona but i dont have her fully built.
I've never liked bennet but navia's nice enough that she moreso just needs applicators instead of buffers, leading to me usually running xq/fischl/zhongli for most of my time as her but sometimes mona too as something more funny.
ITS. A SHOTGUN. YOURE MISSING SOME OF THE SHELLS. THATS WHY THE NUMBERS CHANGE.
Its also because geo resonance. He mentioned it though
I really like running navia with a double Geo double Electro comp. No particular reason it's electro. I know Dbl Pyro gives 25% Atk and that's great but I actively avoid using Bennet as it's genshin easy more to me, same reason I don't use Shield Zhongli. Aside from him and xiangling Pyro doesn't have a ton when it comes to off field presence essentially when you need crystallize. Electro on the other had has tons of good off fielders, having more options because the characters are in less demand.
I was hoping you would build a burst support navia 💀
Full EM Archaic Petra Crystallize Burst support Navia. Hey! It's half a Furina buff!
@@infrnlmssh9719Furina with archaic Petra in a team with a geo character: I am your worst nightmare
@@menuvafei6164 Navia with Archaic Petra with Furina in her team because she's the Geo character: Are you sure?
@@infrnlmssh9719 you don’t need to be geo to have archaic petra.
@@menuvafei6164 No. But the only reason why no one really uses it is because the user has to pick the shard. Otherwise everyone would use it. And Navia's skill picks it up without issue.
Benette is very good and universal there's no doubt. But people forget that Mona provides a flat 60% dmg increase which would with adequate recharge makes her a second benette.
Like it's funny because people put all this money into the game, they miss their 50/50's and are probably sitting on level 20 C6 Mona dmg cannons not because their knowledge is lacking but because they don't value the units they miss their rolls on.
I got verdict while trying to get the key and I want navia
i think what makes me sad is that the trend of characters like gorou cheveruse faruzan and the other hyper niche support characters started with sara, a character that could have been an alternative to bennet but instead was a unit that needed a c6 to even be a great electro support.....its just sad man her attack buff seems so interesting and it just doesnt
also fun fact while its not THE BIGGEST thing ever but for niche physical teams cheveruse can be used as a bad bennett alternative cause you will be able to get her overchage balls for the attack buff, the same basically goes for any team that has any overload but isnt pure overload
Honestly I just put her on a dual dps team with Noelle, Gorou, and Raiden. Shards every, geo buff, noblesse buff, and tons of energy for Noelle. It works way better than it probably should lol.
Yeah I liked the litte bit of quickswap DPS stuff I have played with Navia thus far. Will test out Noelle more though
Love Navia but I don't think 12-1-1 of the current Abyss is that great for her normal playstyle or plunge, there's just too much AoE and too many chances of her skills to miss. Not having Bennett in the team does help with her lack in of AoE and mobility, I'm a fan of ToTM Kuki or Mika if I'm feeling spicy.
Yeah this isn’t the kindest abyss to her for sure
While the team format is kinda generic, Furina Xianyun Ning/Zhongli Navia absolutely slaps. My Navia is C0 and deals around 1.3 million damage per rotation. After each skill usage she can perfectly fit 4 geo-infused plunge attacks so you get huge sustained damage in addition to the big nukes. 10/10 would recommend!
Question if a support that shred geo def comes out will that Lower the diminishing returns if shes paired w bennett? cuz I swear when i use Wgs W my navia and try to compare it w my ssr1 the damage is the same where i try bennett ningguang xiangling..
If i didnt make myself too clear just ask
1:42 forgetting about sara is crazzyyyyy xdd
Its not that crazy to forget about a atk buffer that they managed to make more niche than Chevreuse, who literally restricts her team comps to 2 elements. I shouldve mentioned her to be clear, but its not like shes actually that important in the scope of the conversation about atk buffers in the game, sadly.
Heck, I dont even like using her with Raiden, who she was made for…
@@Solunerra damn the crow hate is crazy
Sarah and Shenhe also buff attacks. Yes I know they are niche but it is still a attack buff.
I have Navia and no Bennet at the moment. Hopefully I get him soon, but its not like I plan on going into abyss any time soon. So yeah.
You forgot that food can increase crit rate which would’ve been useful to test her max damage without having to reset
I dislike food buffs
@@Solunerra well if you were aware and still decided that you’d rather reset than use food to increase your chances than fair enough
The best navia team imo is navia/geo sub dps/ furina and xianyun. You run marechausse and get a top of stats
If you have the characters, you could try navia xianyun furina zhongli
Yeah I played around a bit with plunge. Its obviously pretty decent, though not necessarily the strongest way to use Xianyun. Xianyun is just a good buffing option
I use Mona instead of Zhongli.
You don't need Bennett for her she works without him. You can use double hydro and geo core.
My Benny is lvl 90, 4pc Noblesse & an Alley Flash (don.'t have Aquila) but I just haven't used him in over a year. My Navia is C0R1 & has 4pc Whispers & does just fine without him on severals teams I've tested, my favourite being plunge.
Yeah the more alternative buffers they release the more you can go without him. I use him all the time for infusion stuff too though lol
@@Solunerra that's pretty much what I was using him for until I shelved him, pyro Qiqi combined with Kazuha buff & sunfire Jean was a riot, if impractical in most scenarios.
Noo, double pyro gives you atk thanks to elemental synergy
Blud forgot sara
What if you use navia as a burst sheilder , using crystalize
I knew that but still helped.
I don't even know why youtube hid my comments
Guys, I just pulled Verdict. I'm on 70 pity. If I sacrifice my sleep i can pull Navia. Now, should I go for Navia or should I get Yelan instead?
my navia team is her , bennett , furina and chevy
Thank you
2+2 Geo and pyro is the best combination for Navia. Especially for Abyss and bosses
However, if use Bennett with her are restricted yourself within his circle
Moreover, Navia lose 200 base attack with compared with +2 pyro
In my example any elemental combinations it's 2.861 attack but with +2 pyro it went 3.061 attack
Is worthy that 200 base attack difference for Navia ? 🤷
Play navia or else lose your EVERY 50/50. She's literally me, love me, use me, gimme crit, gimme damage
I wonder if mavuika will change everything
Navia works fine without Bennett if you have Chiori C1 and Furina
What is that damage from Arleccino lol. Is that C0? I've never seen her in action before
Navia Furina Zhongli Jean is my go to team
Is Noelle,navia,bennett,furina team good?
Noelle c6
Navia c1
Bennett c3
Furina c0
Sara gives atk buff
Day 1 of asking soluna to do abyss for me
Personally from my experience soluna I do nav Benny shong Rosa idk why I prefer it over furina in there instead of Rosa cause Rosa buffs more Consistency and comfort plus Rosa's skill DMG boost is nice cause nuke Rosa go burr
Unfortunately I can’t use Bennett since he’s c6, so I literally have no choice but to substitute him for Sara lol
C6 Bennett doesn't overwrite Navias Infusion so he still works
My Bennett is C6 in this video. It doesnt overwrite Navia, or most characters self infusion.
The onty context I found that Bennett C6 overwriting an infusion being an issue for me was with DPS Lynette. Though I could also argue that a pyro infusion is stronger for her than Anemo infusion lol. Other than that it can be problematic for units that generally arent being paired with Bennett, like Eula or Ayaka (though fot Ayaka it gives her high potential for use with fun burgeon melt stuff Ive seen)
Oh shit really? I didn't know that LOL 🤣 I assumed it did since it overwrote my ayaka's infusion, so now I just use bennett with pyro characters like arlecchino and all that, never did experiment around. Now I know I will use bennett with my navia!
@@YesNoDK The easiest way to find out of Bennett C6 overwrites or not is reading the Talent that infuses
As long as: „Cannot be overwritten “ is in the text everything is fine
Navia rapid fire incoming?
quick question... is navia good with yun jin?