The Always, Onlys and Nevers of Motorcycle Riding
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- What are the Always, Onlys and Nevers of Motorcycling? We hear them all the time. Never do this! Always do that! The only way is this way! But what are the absolutes that we need to be aware of so we can be safe riders?
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Rybo's 12 year old son once told me "Don't surprise the bike!" ... mature words from a 12 year old!
I have used that line for years. It was such a beautiful explanation, yeah.
I’ve used the front brake mid turn very lightly, I was told by other riders to never use the brakes in a turn. I am not a fast rider but it’s a good tool. Thanks for your video.
ya lots of opinions by pros....who never shop for more riding tools then what's in their tool bag
I'd say careful doing that in a group. Especially if your tailight doesn't work. 5-10% break should be fine, I rode for 5 miles in deadmans curve behind a guy that stabbed his breaks hard mid corner every time and there was sand on the roads.. That was dumb.
@FR learn how to read
When I came upon the luck of finding a former motorcycle brigade rider from the Army who told me "It's about HOW you use the brakes. If you can't STOP the bike at will, then you do NOT have control. You're betting your life on this thing, so you might want to figure out why you're gambling your life on something you don't control... or maybe quit."
That was the day my father and my uncle both lost their privileges of coaching me on a motorcycle. My father always preached "The front brake will wash you out in a curve, so don't ever use it." My uncle always preached "The rear brake will get you killed in a curve, so don't ever use it."...
SO my ex-Army "adopted uncle" taught me how to ride, alongside his son. He pissed me off plenty (about par for a 15 year old "know it already" if I'm honest) and I occasionally despised him for sucking the fun and excitement out of riding...
BUT the lessons stuck. Looking back, I needed it. I deserved every syllable... and I'm glad to have gotten that coaching from him... and that he wouldn't baby me along for being a "dumb-ass kid". Slapped aloe with lidocaine on more than a fair swatch of road-rash and put me back on the bike... "Either make up your mind to ride, or quit."
I never forgot that Aloe with Lidocaine trick either... haha... ;o)
@everyday tenor Thanks. Stories make otherwise "dry" education worth the perusal, and it's part of how we remember stuff...
I was aware of the Romans using Aloe, and my mother even kept several plants when I was younger, because kids get into EVERYTHING they're not supposed to...
The interesting detail is that it's helpful for road-rash. AND Emergency Medicine already uses lidocaine by the buckets, so they're used to it at a glance... For the budget, you just about can't do better.
At the very least, if one engages "self teaching" about trail braking, I highly recommend doing so cautiously and gently... AND of course Greg over at Motojitsu should be studied up. I'm no GP racer, but I've even been fairly aggressive on the fronts in corners without much worry.
There really IS no replacing a competent and caring coach, though. It really helps, whether you pick a grizzled ex-Army rider or a guy like Einatsch at ChampU or Kevin Morris with MCRider if you're in that corner of the country. A coach CAN be found, so long as a little care is taken about that "competent and caring" part. There is the MSF, at least in the States, but it can be a bit of a mixed bag and expensive to boot. ;o)
I have been riding 36 years and I am an average rider doing about 50 000 miles since 1983 without crashing once. As a rule I have always changed my front sprocket 1 tooth up. Why? Because the joy of riding rather than more power has always outstaged what my bike could do and what I was capable of. O do not get it when guys buy a 750 and expect 1000 performance. Being out in the open experiencing my 5 senses has always been more meaningful than trying to make my wife a widow. My older brother taught me. You get 2 types of riders. Those always pushing the limits on public roads and the old riders. You seldom get old riders pushing the limits. Choose which one you want to be because those who are both are too few.
Great presentation though. I really found great value in your style of presenting. Clip really well put together. Great job thank you!
Ride by faith and not by sight. . .
I love your videos where you cover such topics! I'm from India and the past 11 years i had been riding a 125cc proper commuter bike from Suzuki. But it was only recently that i started loving riding motorcycles. I thought i had gotten good at riding, so i decided to buy a 250cc bike. Again from Suzuki, a Gixxer sf250 made specifically for countries like ours. The power it puts out is pretty low by Western standards but its pretty decent (or more than enough in my case) for Indian roads, especially the state where I'm living in where its full of twists and turns. So the bike happens to be a sports tourer, the riding posture isn't that aggressive but still its very new to me. I can't help but find myself lean my bike around corners (something which i rarely used to do on my previous commuter motorcycle), the ergonomics of this bike just encourages me to lean. Now i get it why sports bikes are designed the way they are. There is so much more to learn about motorcycles, how each design serves a purpose or evoke a particular emotion. Your videos have helped me get a better understanding on the logic that involves when cornering a bike, I've been learning some of the points you mentioned intuitively but your points have given me much more clarity on it.
I've always ridden with 2 fingers on the clutch and 2 on the brake. A hold out from my dirt bike days I guess. Never did me wrong.
Your and YCRS are my two favorite and most learned sources of riding info. It amazes me how few riders spend the time to actually learn how to ride better, safer, faster. Coaching and instruction is the most valuable part of your riding experience. Thanks for all you do to make this a better sport.
Great discussion to encourage us all to keep an open mind and keep learning. I like the blend of race track to parking lot topics, it’s all about motorcycle control no matter where you’re riding.
Thanks!! Obviously I agree. 😎
When I was starting out one of the most frustrating things was trying to find "The" answer to various aspects of riding. As I progressed I realised that context is everything and a time and a place for all things often applies. Great video! The goals approach is a great way of looking at it.
Thank you again for this amazing eye opener! It's a very welcome addition to get the rigidity about the "rules of motorcycle riding" out of our heads and system. After viewing one of your other videos I applied your words to my actions, and to my great relief cornering my motorcycle ( H-D Electra Glide CVO, 440 kgs dry) went way better than I was used to! So, in short, after doing those "do's & don'ts" you mentioned for 40+ years, I've been going over to your " school of riding" and the new views. It's good to keep on questioning what is right and wrong, and by doing so, bettering yourself all the time. Thanks again and greetings from The Netherlands!👏👏😎😎🇳🇱🇳🇱
I've been a victim of the 'nevers,' specifically 'never touch the brake in a corner. The emphasis placed on smooth riding, both here and on other channels, is much appreciated. I could have used in my younger days, when I thought 'late braking' was all about diving deep into a corner and then jabbing the brake. Smooth riding is safer, faster and just more pleasant.
if you cant use the brakes in a curve, you can never ride on hills, because going down a hill on a curve you HAVE TO BRAKE or the bike speed will increase out of your control.
You also have to be able to brake on a street corner, incase traffic in front of you stops suddenly. One of the most common places for accidents is just past an intersection, where everyone is careful going thru it, and then a vehicle slows and turns into a driveway just on the other side of the intersection.
You "cant" use the brakes in a curve if you are already riding at the limit of traction.. ie. going TOO FAST to be able to compensate for anything unexpected
@@kenwittlief255 Great comments but don't forget you have a lot of engine breaking on most bikes, using this down hill in conjuction with your brakes is better practice than just relying on your brakes. Plus if you need to brake hard if traffic stops suddenly infront of you anywhere then you are riding to close to the vehicle in front. In the UK we use the 2 second rule, 2 secs between you and the vehicle in front is more than enough space to brake no matter what speed you are going, time over distance etc lol
@@wyrefpv9553 One point I somewhat disagree with you is the 2 second following time no matter the speed. If I'm riding on the interstate and in traffic that is going 85mph then 2 seconds is not enough time to safely stop.
Wow, your videos are so good. They're no doubt the most ready-to use technical motorcycle video i've found un RUclips.
I will say, from riding basic courses and taking performance driving courses in cars- your advice is spot on. The big part is practicing application to know what has the exact effect, and when or how much to apply said effect. Its the same concepts in all of motorsports. But mastering a motorcycle will definitely make you a safer automobile driver.
Well said. It's always nice to get confirmation on one's habits and beliefs. Riding for 50 years, vastly improved in the last 4.
I love this!
You’ve no idea how much I wanna be near you ! You teach me this much , through this distance, and just with videos , as you say , you love bikes and riding , i do too , however it turns out very late , but i love riding .
I wish , and believe me not just wishing, I’ll try my best to being in the situation which i can be there near you , to learn more and spend more time with you if you accept ! Sincerely your student, soheyl
I just wish more channels were this balanced and encouraged people to think for themselves like on these videos!
Thank you! Thats some super high praise!
This is absolutely correct. If you ride long enough, you will run into every (what to do when) scenario and it's exceptions! A great no nonsense advise!
"Never push the throttle against the front brake"
I do think that depends. Unless you mean acceleration and braking simultaneously, then I absolutely agree.
I do press lightly on the front brake around blind corners with a steady throttle, since it reduces perception time should something pop up out of nowhere. The amount of braking is very small, almost insignificant, so, maybe that doesn't count.
We would encourage you to completely release the front brake whenever the throttle is open. Even simply pressing pads against rotors sends the bike conflicting signals. Moreover, while it might "work," it's "working" in the same sense that using a machete to peel an onion would also "work." Covering the brake is a fantastic practice. "Preloading" the lever is overkill and frankly, nobody good does it.
@@Ridelikeachampionycrs I appreciate your input. You're probably right about it being overkill. I'm still a relatively new rider. Been riding for 2 years so far, and still learning. I guess I'll just resort to covering the front brakes rather than preloading them.
@@Ridelikeachampionycrs How about for tight mountain roads with potential gravel or mud mid-corner?
@@Ridelikeachampionycrs I've been struggling with this too, maybe you can help. From ChampU, I know that loading the front tire with the brake increases grip. Sometimes when cornering I want that feeling of increased front wheel traction, but releasing throttle entirely supplies so much engine braking on the rear that it rapidly scrubs off speed, and my front-rear bias would seem to be pretty neutral instead of front being slightly loaded. Do you have any comments on that? Thanks in advance!
@@fallinginthed33p Even more important that we don't conflict the two. Super tight corners and the front is already heavily loaded? Try adding a little rear brake :)
Another great video! The "ends the anticipation" line was hilarious!
I'd say one absolute on a bike is not to be abrupt. You touch on that with the brakes and throttle, but applies to most of motorcycling. You don't want to be abrupt with the controls, weight transfer, direction changes...etc. Your examples and explanations are great....there are not many hard and fast rules. We've all heard that "smooth is fast", but smooth is also safer.
I totally agree. Another would be "never drop your helmet," yeah?
@@CanyonChasers No doubt...lol. Great content!!
Never override the ability to see thru the corner… the street is full of unknowns and is very unforgiving .
Critical points mentioned with the right conflicting points. YCRS snippets trickled down, definitely makes the one that much safer. Thank you Dave.
Good info. There's one use of throttle and front brake I'd like to get advice on before I'm ready to accept it as an absolute.
Freeway offramp, in traffic. I want to slow down from moderately high speed gradually, and signal to vehicles behind. Sometimes I use rear brake, but I find I have more finesse on the front brake (I can more accurately feel where ~5% is, just enough to light up the brake light). If I completely close the throttle and use engine braking, I slow too much and am risking being rear-ended because of no brake light.
Sometimes I find it's better to roll off the throttle and begin to front brake slightly, but leave the throttle open just a bit, to maintain momentum but begin slowing. Then if I completely need to stop once I've exited or get back on the gas if the light is green I can transition to either.
This is one example of a situation that's hard to describe, and it may be particular to my 300cc bike, but I'd be open to discussing better alternatives.
This is an interesting question because your argument is you are using the brake light for communication, more than slowing, so I understand where you are coming from.
That said, the risks of overlapping the front brake and the throttle are still legitimate. However, overlapping the rear brake and the throttle is actually something a lot of us do a lot to control wheelies or to stabilize the chassis in some specific situations (probably less of an issue on a little bike).
So I gotta say, I'd be far more inclined to use the rear brake. We can actually adjust the rear brake lever so that the light would come on early, before the brakes were actually engaged (if we wanted) so we could still communicate without pushing front and rear tires against each other.
A very useful technique I have recently acquired for anticipating a possible emergency braking situation is as follows
Pull your front brake lever in that 10 or 12 millimetres until the pads are barely touching the front disc.
By doing this, it overcomes the tendency to “stab” the front brake in an emergency.
Try this yourself you will feel the difference
Great content Dave and always well presented. I have learned so much from you. Thanks heaps mate from Australia.
I dig it! But if you’re always braking until you’re on the throttle, you will always be at least in this position (with the pads touching rotors).
@@VState60 I am not sure you understood what I meant. I only use the technique in a possible emergency situation such as somebody coming up to turn in front of you. By just barely touching the pads on the rotor it eliminates the tendency to stab the front brake giving you better control for a safe stop if necessary.
Agree. When anything looks dicey up ahead rapidly bring the brake lever to the point where the pads are just touching the rotors and hold it there. That way you reduce your reaction time and are set up to squeeze on the brakes properly.
Thank you for these great lessons on riding here in the Philippines especially in the provinces we have to motorcycle track to run on instead we use the streets and so far I have used your techniques on my travels and enjoyed the ride as for the quote I saw in a rider's vest..."It's not the destination but the Ride". Thanks so much guys!
about braking, always brake graduatly, touch your rear brake when front brake is not enough and you are good to go. Also think a head.
Great review. Thanks for your consice PRESENTATION
@6:00 there’s a pretty popular ‘coach’ who I’ve seen speak on RUclips and to crowds of folks who teaches this-I disagree with about 90% of what he teaches and I hope this was directed at him 😂
Always good to have this kind of advice before I go crazy this summer! Thanks ☺️
I don't know yet how to ride a sports bike. But I learned how to ride a small displacement bike back when I was at 6th grade. Not familiar with those lean angles and stuffs, but I was doing everything you said subconsciously, except on the part where I could use my front brakes when slowing down on mid-corners because I always thought that it would be risky and the counter-steering part. Well, it just shows that riding a moped, small displacement bikes is different from riding a sports bike. Thank you for the tips.
No one taught me how to ride, other than my dad jumping out in front of me when I was 12 making sure I could brake. He was an idiot.
I ride a 145 hp, 650 lb wet weight bike at high speed on unfamiliar back roads. That means decreasing radius turns are common. And fun (or the end of your day).
I STRONGLY suggest all motorcyclists find the nearest gravel road. With curves. Ride it slowly at first only using gentle inputs on all controls. Go slowly. Then, gradually test the limits of grip (this works best with a beater bike, but if you learn to recognize what loss of grip feels like, you’ll be fine). Either way, if/when you fall, physics gives you the lessons you need.
Then, and only then, use what you learned when street riding. You will have learned what it feels like when you are on the bleeding edge of traction, and know what to do to not get that close again. As an added benefit, knowing all that, you can become VERY fast on road courses. I didn’t go that direction, and never ride over 9/10ths.
Be safe out there!
Loved the video, loved Ducati as example... keep it honest, very cool!
Great information! NEVER applying brakes while cornering probably originates from riding my BSA Victor. The brakes were the original "adventure motorcycle ".
I had an old Bonneville with double leading shoe brakes. I don't know if the brakes or the bias ply tires were worse.
Never use the throttle against the front brake is great advice, but should not be confused to mean release the throttle then grab the brake.
When I approach a corner, I ease off the throttle while gently squeezing the front brake. Basically as I roll off the throttle, I roll my index and middle finger (that have been covering the front brake) down against the brake lever. This 1. Loads the front end as I pull in the slack of the front lever, and 2. Gradually eases the force from the rear tire into the front braking wheel as braking increases.
I end up at ZERO throttle pretty quickly, but this helps keep the ride smooth.
I love this advice, and have shared to my children ages 30 and 21. I don't know everything.
I too roll off the throttle and right onto the front brake, but a lot of programs are teaching that trail braking is being on the throttle and the front brake at the same time.
Thanks for addressing resuming braking in the middle of a corner; it seldom is on RUclips motorcycle channels. But I find myself getting grabby with the front brake. During this period that I am learning to go easier on the front brake in that situation, I use engine braking with the clutch 'cause it's easier to finesse the clutch than the front brake. People will say you're burning out the transmission or clutch, but I'll take that chance. Just be aware you will want to be in a higher gear than usual, because the engine is gonna start screaming.
I'd encourage you to continue to focus on the front brake. We're not especially worried about wear, but you have significantly more control with your front brake. You can add and subtract small amounts of pressure for incredible precision. When engine braking, what do we do if we need to slow even more? Add more coast?
Nice talk, as usual, but I disagree on one issue. Counter-steering is effectively the ONLY way to turn a bike. Weighting the inside peg will do nothing (*). It only serves the purpose of making riders feel confortable with what they’re doing by fooling themselves.
On generic terms, a center of mass can only change its velocity (it’s a vector, so, it has a direction which can change too) if an external force is applied. Aside from “wind”, there are only two external forces acting on a motorcycle, which are the reaction forces of the tarmac acting on the tyres contact patches. Nothing else can change the center of mass velocity direction, or, if you prefer, the center of mass position on the bike/rider’s reference.
You can lean the bike more by applying more of your weight on the inside peg, but by doing that without changing the external forces, the rider’s body will shift to the opposite side by such an amount that the center of mass of the bike/rider set will remain in the exact same position. And keep in mind that the trajectory of the bike is dictated by the angle of the center of mass of the set bike/rider with respect to the tyre contact patches.
Internal forces will do nothing for you.
(*) might need some further clarification…..
Yeah I think that might be the ONE hilarious Keith Code demo- He’s got a guy off the motorcycle-both feet standing on the left peg-hands off the bars- Steering head doesn’t move-bike doesn’t turn. Peg-weighting does nothing at all-or does it? The one thing it DOES DO is it gets your ass up off the seat a little bit- And that actually can be a little advantageous to counter steering- Especially in a really tight sequence of S-turns or the chicane as he describes. If your body is sort of pivoting along with your steering-it can seem a lot more natural when getting through the hard stuff. Does peg-weighting, in and of itself, initiate any kind of lean on the bike or maybe make the rear dig in a little harder?- No the responder is CORRECT- it doesn’t do fuck-all without the corresponding steering inputs.
Adding weight to 1 foot is for bikes where your feet are under you. Think of sumo fighters. They put all weight on 1 leg and the other leg comes up. You do kind of the same thing but with out lifting your leg. It helps with a couple of things.
1, when you do this you tend to lift your but off or nearly off the seat, which helps being able to switch center of gravity/position on the bike.
2, it helps move more weight lower on the bike and center the weight longitudinal/front to back. (Your weight is on the pegs not the seat)
3, this really only works when leaning. If you do this straight up and down your upper body compensates to keep the bike vertical.
If you lift your but slightly off the seat and practice full lane side to side swerves the way you normally would but add weight transfer to your feet it will happen quicker. Using your weight on the pegs is for very aggressive riding but can help in on road oh shit situations if you have practice with the technique.
@@lovepcgaming2335 Sumo fighters are using external forces when they put all weight on 1 leg. Those are ground reaction forces. You do not have that on a bike, unless you use your feet against the ground.
1. You can not change the center of gravity of the set "you and your bike" without using external forces. You can change your center of gravity though, and the bike will change its CG so that the CG of the set "you and your bike" will remain exactly the same.
2. If you put all your weight on the pegs, instead of the bike sit, that does not change yours or the bike's CG.
3. I don't get what you mean.....
You can lift your but all you want if that "makes you feel" or "adds to your confidence" in swerving. Using your weight on the pegs does absolutely nothing in terms of physics. But I understand if it helps your mind......
What you are aiming for when you press a peg or press a knee against the tank or whatever (I've heard it all), is the same an astronaut without nothing to push against would try to do to reach his spacecraft 2 meters away. He's dead, but he will make a lot of movements before acknowledging it......
What I mean by this last sentence is that the astronaut can extend his arms and whatever. But there is no way he'll be able to change his CG position. He has no access to external forces to change his CG position, therefore he''ll never reach the spacecraft. He will die 2 meters away from the safety of his spacecraft.
Great information as always. One of the rules I have always broken comfortably has been rolling the throttle on slowly once my corner is set. I trust my tires. I’m still engaged in lean and I’m trail breaking and I start rolling on the fuel.
Right. If we're comfortable with our speed and direction, but not quite ready to go back to the gas and take away lean angle, maintenance throttle is the tool. But I probably would encourage you to not brake and maintenance throttle simultaneously. :)
Yeah, I've definitely dragged stock pegs on an RC390 😅
Thank you, great video and info.
Valuable information as usual, thanks so much.
People dont realize how smooth you need to be until you start hitting the limits of group on the track or when riding in the wet. 1mm of throttle on cold tires in the wet or on the limit can high side you on a big bike.
As usual excellent tips, thanks for that
I use front brake to shorten wheel base in corners to contribute lean angle. I use throttle to maintain speed while doing this. So I disagree with not overlapping these controls since I have those overlapping goals.
Great video as always. Thanks for all you do.
I would strongly discourage that practice. The best riders in the world all say to never overlap the two controls.
@@CanyonChasers i know. but since i don't know their reasons, i can't judge their advice. the term "trail braking" is overbroad, in part because it assumes i'll finish using one control before applying the other. note that if i had a "suck the front tube up a bit to shorten the wheelbase" control i would be using that instead of the front brake in this situation. i wrote a similar comment on the video in which you explained why the anti-dive feature of BMW Telelever wasn't much to your liking.
meanwhile i'll go on enjoying your work, and thanks again for that.
Shortening wheelbase does not increase lean angle. Braking might compress the front suspension, decrease the rake angle and trail, but only if it actually results in deceleration. If you are using the throttle against the brake "to maintain speed" you are not decelerating so there is no change in geometry.
Great video. I miss riding. Haven't ridden since 2014. Even it's been that long I still have buying another motorcycle in the back of my mind. Every now and then I look at cycletrader and go to my local Honda dealership.
Why so long, tho? Hopefully not due to injuries.
@@patrickmba7638 no injuries even while I was riding, knock on wood, mostly just life in general, moved to another state, and starting a family. My wife isn't against me getting one but when I do it'll be just my toy on two wheels.
@@JW-fm2cy 👍
I always assumed the reason the front brake was put with the throttle because you aren't supposed to use them at the same time.
Thanks for another informative and helpful video
I make a conscious effort to brake all the "rules". Just a little when I am sure the consequence will not be very bad.
I could be wrong, but I personally think it makes a person a better rider for a lot of reasons. A rider should know exactly what there bike is and isn't capable of. And it gives a rider more options and a greater skillset.
Great video...excellent delivery which was appreciated!!!
I use the front brake mid turn, but I learned to be smooooth on it
Motorcycling is a constant dance with nuance.
Love your videos mate ,helps education and recapping, keep up the good work, Ride safe from the UK 🇬🇧 🇺🇸
Hitting the brake and throttle (in very specific situations on the track) is beneficial. Only the best need apply though.
"Never push the throttle against the front brake." I wouldn't be surprised if that is why they are both controlled with almost opposite inputs of the right hand. You roll your hand back to throttle up, and you roll your hand forward to reach the front brake.
Pushing the front brake against the Throttle sounds like a pretty Sick Burn out …. Tell me I’m lying 😂😂
Indeed it is!
Great information, I constantly try to learn and wonder about this daily.
I was always a little uneasy about using the front brake while entering or rounding a curve untill I read about trail braking. When trail braking lightly through a turn the motorcycle feels more stable and feels like it wants to go through the turn without being forced too.
That's exactly right! A little front brake pressure settles things down as that's how our bikes were designed to work. 😎
@@CanyonChasers That is not what was said in the video. All that was said in the video was that you can, with care, use the brakes in a turn, but it is something you should normally avoid. Riding on a track, braking hard on the approach to a turn, front suspension compressed; trail braking gradually reduces weight transfer due to braking as centripetal force takes over. It minimizes disruption of the front suspension. It's not really appropriate to the way a bike is ridden on public roads.
@@roadracingrelics I was always told not to touch the front brake in a curve period. If you need to slow down straighten the bike first. There's not always time to do that. Going to fast into an unfamiliar curve, finding debris in the road or approaching a slow car around a curve can be safely and smoothly dealt with. If you already have your pads lightly touching the brake disk a little more pressure can be safely applied to slow you in a curve. Applying a little front brake in a curve is not going to automatically cause you to crash like I was lead to believe. If you have the slack out of t system you can smoothly add a little more pressure and safely slow in a curve. No fingers on the lever might cause it to be applied too fast and harder than intended and cause an accident. Just my opinion from my experience. Still learning with 40 years in the saddle.
The MSF used to teach, I assume they still do, that if you have to brake in a turn you can either get the bike vertical as quickly as possible and then use maximum braking or you can continue turning, applying progressively more brake pressure as the bike becomes upright. Slightly dragging the brakes in a turn isn't trail braking. Trail braking is about managing the transition from hard braking, on the approach to a turn, and hard turning as experienced on a race track.
@@roadracingrelics ok. I'm a brake dragger and not a trail braker.
Not disputing, but anecdotally, and iirc, Troy Corser would hit the brakes and the gas in the corners on the early Aprilia RSV to get enough stiffness from the bike.
I ride big ADV bikes. Trail breaking is a thing, and damn useful both on and off road.
YES!! It’s not scary or advanced. It makes riding more fun!!
Great vid. glad iv been doing all these naturally. Top Vid. gives me peace of mind.
if you remember my comments in a previous video you know I love this one: Plastic Brain! key of life
Ha! yes!
Always replace the paper towels... Never leave the empty roll...
I want to point out that you can use brake and throttle at the same time in case you are rev matching during down shifting .
And
You can add throttle at tunns if you are counter leaning (ofcourse not 100%).
in the first - thats not pushing the rear tire against the front - your not driving the rear into the front.
in the second - You can, but thats extremely risky. Counterleaning requires even more lean, and uses up even more grip. When accelerating while artificially adding lean you can run out of grip very quickly.
@@CanyonChasers Counter leaning can reduce the chance of low siding because less lateral force and more vertical force is applied on the tyre because the center of mass is closer to the point of contact between tyre and load.
@adityasubhedar9556 nope. You are ignoring centripetal force and tire deformation.
Lean equals risk. But lean is how we turn. The only times we want to use counter leaning is at low speeds when we have lots of grip. Outside of that specific scenario we mostly want to avoid it.
@@CanyonChasers context is very important in this case. You're right, when you lean with the bike the risk of crashing increases and you should not risk loosing the rear by using too much throttle.
Seriously ... Just lean "Moar"? Is that what just flashed up on my screen? I had to look more than once but yep, there it was. 😁
Another great video guys. Excellent advice and great passion as always.
How else do you tell the “basics” to new riders? 😁
We need to keep it simple when learning.
Of course this isn’t advises for advanced track riders.
very nice instruction
I never grab front brake around corners in a panic mode.. or the beginnings of a potential panic mode. I’ll use it when I think it’s ok to do so
This is correct. We shouldn't fear the control. Fear abruptness. With that in mind, it's almost always okay to use the front brake - when we use smooth, linear inputs.
Sir more videos pls
I have so many ideas written down, enough to keep me going for a few years before I'd even have to add to it.
Excellent.
interesting, police style pro riders teach using the throttle, friction zone, and brakes all at the same time in fact when i come home i have a narrow 2ft wide path with a slight flat Z shape that is about 35ft long y turn left into the path in 10 ft a slight bend to the right, then in 20ft a slight bend to the right then straight into the shed and i achieve this by throttling up slightly clutch in the friction zone and foot on the rear brake and it works every time.
Oh right. Yes. Rear brake is totally different. We can absolutely overlap rear brake with throttle - as you've pointed out - in some situations its extremely effective. But thats where mistakingly thinking that overlapping throttle with front brake was an effective technique originated.
Certainly haven't mastered the technique, but I found I could get insanely tight u-turns, hairpins, etc if I kept a little front brake applied while rolling on the throttle. This compresses both front and rear suspension and on some bike geometries will shorten the wheelbase significantly.
Yeah. Please don't do that. The rear brake will work better, with a better result and less chance of tipping over.
@@CanyonChasers this is just trail braking, have you heard of Bret Tkacs? He has a good video explaining in detail.
Always full of info..great videos by a great person...keep it up bro
Thank you!!
I realized that I had a bad habit when riding in canyon corners. I was surprised to see me using both trail braking and throttle only when turning right. So sometimes it was dangerous. My bike is naked. I put my elbows under the handlebars and it got a little better. I need more practice...
Precious advices..👌Thanks...
I love your videos. I started watching your channel when I decided I was going to buy my first motorcycle, I’ve learned so much. Trail braking has helped me in corners, I feel a lot more confident and in control when cornering.
always wait let me start over. Never always do the thing
And remember... The streets and roads are not controlled environments. On a track you can get away with many things and not have to deal with hazards commonly present on streets/roads. Have fun responsibly so you can keep doing it for many years.
If you go easy yiu can brake in a turn, i do it all the time, especialy in twisties ive never been in before. And when in doupt, lean thst machine.
Considering that most riders lowside in corners even when they don't touch the brakes,i agree that most riders should never brake mid corner.
We absolutely can brake mid corner - we don't want to grab the brakes mid corner. It's not the brakes that we should be afraid of - it's abruptness.
Throttle against front brake from Pro's = Power sliding to point the bike for where they need to go in a curb
I had one of those push throttle into brake unintentionally and it hurt; The free play on my throttle had changed and I wasn’t aware of it until my crash. Granted I wasn’t going fast but setting up to trail brake, I accidentally opened throttle up and stabbed brake out of muscle memory; second mistake because I had bled brakes few days before so it was more grippy. Next thing I know the ass end of my bike popped up and sent me flying, landing hard on my shoulder enough to knock me off riding for nearly a year. Bike in shop having throttle cable re-adjusted or replaced.
I think we've all had similar situations. It is scary AF.
My Advice is that what ever you do be sure that what are you doing is Right and perfect, never do something that you are not sure about it .
What really opened my eyes is when I was browsing /r/motorcycles one day and Champ School themselves posted about trail braking and there were a LOT of people in the comments talking shit to CHAMP SCHOOL because they were under the impression that trail braking was the same as left foot braking in a car and that using the front brake and the throttle at the same time was dangerous. And they were right of course, but not about what trail braking is. How the hell did so many people come to think that trail braking was the same as using the brake and the throttle at the same time?
Sadly, thats how quite a few motorcycle riding programs teach it. But yeah, I'm with you, the motorcycle community is so full of hyperbole and opinion, it's really hard to get the actual data and evidence to rise to the surface. @champschool and the book Motorcycle Dynamics: amzn.to/2MCuYvK basically end every argument because they are both evidence based.
Really great presentation.
Glad you liked it!
ALWAYS provide smooth input
NEVER do jerky/clumsy movements
ONLY follow these if you want to keep your motorcycle right side up 👍
I'll add "never drop your helmet" 😎
Yay, cameo @5:30!
It had to be included!
It's all relative to the given situation.
I completely agree, the "Absolutes Always/ Never do this" are idiotic, all comes down to the situation and the emergency at hand... You can get away with pretty much everything if you are gentle and balanced with the controls.
I mean, they do exist but they aren’t that common. But even never overlapping throttle and front brake… but what if I wanna do a sick burnout?
I always thought the first brake was the throttle?
I think the two most important is always ride sober, and never ride intoxicated on anything.
OMG! Yes!
Great content. Thank you. I have two question here.
1. Can I apply maintenance throttle while on front break while on corner to maintain the speed?
2. And do I need to hold the counter steer on the corner even if the corner is wide, long sweep or counter steer 1st then release the pressure to allow bike to turn naturally (Saw pictures of bike on the corner and tires were facing the direction of the turn so got confused. Counter steer is the only major way to lean that I know but what next after the lean? should I keep on holding that counter steer pressure? Won't It keeps on leaning the bike?) A quick reply would be very helpful.
First. We do not want to overlap throttle and brake. Not even maintenance throttle. If we are happy with our speed and direction, release the brake and go with just maintenance throttle. If we need to go back to the brakes, remember that first and last five percent of brake pressure and sneak the brake back on.
Second, the countersteer is really only needed to initiate lean. Once the bike is leaned over, you are are correct, we want to let the front wheel steer through the rest of the corner.
@@CanyonChasers Thank you very much for clearing the confusion.
front breaks are engineered to be used while cornering and assist your steering and control of the curve by adding traction and shorter steering range
what are you talking about
Brake and throttle work together only in an AWD car
Wry good video !!😮
Nice video.
Nice video! Question.. I understand you do not want to combine front brake and throttle. So, if you're trailbraking in a corner and you don't see the exit yet, I normally keep a little bit of break on. But what if I want to maintain speed and need a bit of throttle for that. You say let go of the brakes?
Great question. Thats when we'd go to maintenance throttle. We're happy with our speed and direction, but we're not quite ready to start accelerating and taking away lean angle. When we go to maintenance throttle, the radius of the corner stays where it is.
@@CanyonChasers From my understanding, it is fine to be at maintenance throttle while trail braking, but you should never actively accelerate while trail braking?
@@siksniper1996 You never mix throttle and break at any point ever.
@@FadilKarim Makes sense, CanyonChasers answered what I wanted to know in another comment.
@@CanyonChasers thanks!!
Leaning doesn't turn your bike, using the handlebars does, yep, use countersteering
My own most important "never say never" applies to handling yellow lights. "Never blow through them"?? What about the fuel tanker that was barreling down on me from behind when I hadn't checked my mirrors just before a light turned yellow, but I decided I was in too much of a hurry to stop (which I usually would have)? On the other hand, "Always blow through a yellow light"?? What if you live in T-Bone City? Or Nazi Cop Town?
Damn, i never use brakes, except for sudden stops, or to come to a complete stop after downshifting.
Never occurred to me to brake in corner, or for any reason other than stopping. If you downshift and look through your turns brakes are unnecessary
What happens if we get a corner wrong? How can we add more coast? However, we have a lot more control to add and subtract small amounts of braking pressure depending on what we need at that moment.
@@CanyonChasers i usually downshift before going into turn on the outside, then speed up and about halfway through crossing to inside and shoot out. But honestly it took me a while to figure out. I used to hit the brakes and stay in gear, and never could get through a turn without readjusting. I guess the more experienced you get, you realize how to control the bike by physics instead of hard braking, i watched a lot of dd the fireman, yammie noob, cycle cruza, and a few more. They taught me more than msf did.
Correct me if I'm wrong but using the throttle and the front brake together would be considered front wheel trail breaking, and don't you normally wanna use front wheel trail braking while cornering? So why do you say never? Or are you saying never use positive throttle while braking?
This is a huge misunderstaning brought about by one program misunderstanding Freddie Spencer. What Freddie was actually talking about was back in the days of 2-strokes, he would often run the throttle against the _rear_ brake as a low-buck wheelie and traction control.
But trail braking, by definition, is staying on the front brake past corner entrance and trailing off brake pressure as motorcycle lean increases. Overlapping the two puts the bike in a state of unbalance where it doesn't want to slow and it doesn't want to turn.
Like the boys at YCRS say, dont shock the brakes, smooth and progressive application especially in a corner
Right!! Don't surprise the tire!
@@CanyonChasers although i took YCRS in person years ago, yep i just finished champ U lol
Next up is a super moto course in so cal this summer
Oh. I think you'll love it! Super moto feels like cheating. It's a giggle.
@@CanyonChasers at VR46, Rossi teaches those boys primarily on supermotos. Its a school of all the disciplines, on road, off road, dirt and cross. Even heard about a roving flat track course school run by indian. But they literally travel state to state so if you dont stay on top of em...lol good luck
How do I start on a hill without overlapping the throttle and front break?
In that situation we are trying to get the motorcycle moving. As soon as the bike is at a stable speed, you probably aren't pushing the throttle against the front brake any more. You could make the same argument about doing sick burnouts. :)
Another question about “never break in a turn” is why do modern top tier motorcycles all have lean sensitive cornering abs?
Well, thats kind of the point, right. I brake in turns all the time, its how motorcycles are designed where braking and the compression of the forks reduces trail (steering geometry) so that the bike wants to turn. "Never brake in a turn" isn't very accurate with what we now know.