My thoughts after MMO Doomscrolling.
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
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Completely disagree with Callum there. He seems to be stuck in the mindset that RS does it best and anything that deviates from it is trash. FF14 and GW2 both do level scaling very well, and allow players of different power levels to play together, which was Josh's initial point. The fact that you can farm for shit more efficiently while unsynced is irrelevant, because the whole point of level scaling was to bring people together in the MMO while there is a level-mismatch, not to go back and FARM level 30 dungeons or whatnot. The whole "if there is level sync, you're doing levels wrong" argument was idiotic at best. If everyone wanted to play for 2 weeks to get a level that gives you +1 to stats, then guess what, they go play that. But they don't because that's not progression for most people, and it's boring AF.
It's also important to mention that RS does these things well, and a lot of things other mmos don't do at all. And the fact that it took until 2022 for this to be pointed out boggles my mind. Nobody talked about runescape in the past and how many things it does right, and STILL does better than others. So hearing this is like a fresh drop of water.
I've played mmos more where I went "I wish this did it like rs" rather than in RS being "i wish it did it like X game"
He said something about leveling being the reward, and that's where I think he's wrong. imo, your level is not the reward when you have scaling, it's just a number that has no meaning at that point. The reward is the skills you got along the way. Gw2 scales my levels down, but I get to keep all the skills and toys I acquired at max level.
Ffxiv has no scaling outside of dungeons. All you’d be doing is One hit killing everything in the open world for your friend and constantly forming and disbanding your party for them to do a solo instance every other quest. Ffxiv is not a co-op friendly experience at all.
@@fullmetalarshole What FFXIV are you playing my dude? At best you'd 'power level' your mates in high level zones (which he needs to progress the MSQ to reach & also subsequently level) up to 30 at BEST (usually people stop @ 16 so they can begin to queue dungeons)
Nobody does FATEs primarily to level up, even if you're talking FATEs it does sync levels down - and FATEs are a way to complement leveling while queueing, not a primary method of leveling
If you meant helping your friend to kill open world mobs for quest, you don't have to -- do you think the game throws massive difficulty curves at new players that are doing the 3rd quest of the entire MSQ?
@@masonsaucier3436 It's quite subjective. Callum thinks that the levels is the reward, but you think it's the skill, while for others it's not the level or skills but the story progression/etc.
Sorry Callum, I completely disagree. The point of playing with friends for me is not to funnel them gear and get them max asap. It's the journey and challenge. Leveling has never been my motivator. Unlocking content and playing with friends is. Leveling, numbers, all of that is artificial in any game just to unlock more content and I've never cared for that. I don't care about numbers unless I have to (like facing a DPS check in a tough fight). And if I start a new MMO or any multiplayer game and a friend who has been playing it for years wants to help me by funneling me gear, I don't want to play with them. Those people suck the fun out of a game. When my husband and I decided to play Boarderlands 2 for instance we had friends who would join our game without asking and would just carry us while we sat there twiddling our thumbs. We had to tell them to sod off and let us experience the game. They didn't want to start over because starting over feels bad but there was literally no way with their power level that they could have joined us and WE would have fun. And that felt bad for all of us.
I love how GW2 does it honestly. MMOs unfortunately are stuck in this mentality of levels and numbers to keep players playing and feeling like they are moving forward. But that doesn't have to be the case. GW2 has proven this. As a result power creep isn't something the devs have to worry about like all other MMOs have to do. I think discounting level syncing in a game is just dismissing the game off hand and isn't a great mentality to have. It's rather selfish in a way because you are only thinking about your own self, your own power, and not thinking of anyone else you may want to play with. In an MMO where you are supposed to be playing with others, I'm not sure that's the best mentality to have.
That's why I ended up grativating to like survival crafting instead of MMO's while my friends all went into MMO's
Knowing you're going to die, you're going to lose, and just enjoying the experience is fantastic.
If you haven't tried it, give Rimworld a shot. It... is not what it looks like on the surface.
@@mitchellhorton9382 But Rimworld is singleplayer, great game though.
@@mitchellhorton9382 You've just recommended drugs that can turn people into psychopaths. **Organ harvesting, oven maze, and several other warcrimes flashbacks** Def not me tho...
Feel like he wasn't really understanding what Josh was talking about here. Every time Josh is trying to think of a solution, he just was not on board lol. They should've just agreed to disagree on this tbh
You unlock content with higher lvls so you its basically saying you need to Push them to the max....
People seem focused on the max-leveled player and new-player scenario where "just make a new character" works (as much as it can work, anyway), but I felt like a huge part of the problem, at least with the initial scenario described, has to deal with mid-level players. If my friend hasn't played in a while or doesn't grind levels the way I have, how am I supposed to play with them if I'm level 40 and they're level 20? A new character doesn't solve that problem. Level scaling at least tries to address it, even if the different implementations of that mechanic do so with different levels of success
That's where I'm with Josh liking the GW2 system. Scale back to maps so you can still enjoy content you've leveled past.
What if we started together but I play on my own? Now we can't quest because I'm 3-5 levels ahead, or at the very least I'm not getting anything out of it for a while. Level scaling doesn't mean leveling is broken. For some reason, people are so hell bent on being able to nuke everything under max level. In GW2 It's actually FUN to go back and play older content like events, map completion, world bosses, etc., BECAUSE it's still a relevant challenge. It also keeps rewards from completing these challenges relevant, because the skill necessary to complete it is the same for everyone. In WoW, pretty much every achievement or reward is immediately invalidated at the next patch, with 90%+ of the player base never touching them again.
I hate level scaling. I havr zero problems to play as a level 40 with my friend who is still 20.
the only reason I'm 40 is because I'm able to help him out more. I don't understand why everyone should be scaled to the same strength especially in mmos. esports is another can of worms but mmos cmon... you and your friend will be max level at some point and if he doesn't play as much as you he just doesn't deserve to have the same stuff and being able to do the same things or progress as a whole is broken
Then just let players level down to level 20 (or any level below 40) temporarily if they want to. No need for level scaling. As for rewards? Well, they're in _for their friends, not the reward._
@@Noqtis but u are helping him out getting stuff he dont deserve even if its afk and tanking or slaying a mob once in a while. level scaling would allow both of u to deserve what u facing
Callum is hoffing some seriously strong copium here. He's not even listening to a word Josh is saying. How can he even consider himself a game designer when he can't even conceive of a different way of approaching a game design problem from a point of view he doesn't like?
This was painful to watch.
/agree
Just look at the last exchange
"Level ranges for PvE zones, where you're capped at plateau is a good idea"
"The veterans would shred newbies"
Also shoutouts to saying that "leveling makes you stronger" is bad design, while also saying "what about players who want to overlevel to trivialize content"
Oof.
Can’t take him serious after hearing this…..
Yeah Josh is throwing in examples from various games and describing different strategies for how to tackle different problems and Callum is just going "Yeah but did you know the thing I don't like is bad?"
i assume he's very good at the technical side but when it comes to analysis he just seems like an average 15 year old's youtuber tbh lol. Not bad for a youtuber but nothing good
In Guild wars 2 you are not downscaled permanently. You still gain gear and xp as if you were your original level - you don't lose power - you never had that much power before.
I feel like GW2 is the perfect “jump in and play” as long as everyone is level 80. It’s so easy to play anything open world together.
@@Seezonn Yeah, the point is you don't need to be level 80 to experience the open world. True that the level 80 maps have some of the better open world designs, but yet the simple stories of the starting zones have their charm too.
Wow, first time I've listened to one of these and just been annoyed. I get Callum's point that he's super stuck on, but it felt like he kind of ignored everything that didn't match or mirror his view on that specific issue, even if Josh was discussing something only partially related. Shame, because the discussion itself is an interesting one.
End result should always be giving players choice, and offering rewards that each player feels is worth their time investment for each type of content. Simples.
Callum definitely has more mixed opinions on things compared to Josh, I've thought of this from several of the talks they have had together. Which of course is fine, MMO players have wildly differing opinions, but Josh usually does have more neutral and "consider all angles" mindset, where as Callum often feels like a stronger "It should be done the most optimal way and others just make no sense."
MMO Devs: _"Too much effort. Let's just use level scaling."_
Honestly I think Monster Hunter does a decent job of this, the "levels" are arbitrary and mean nothing, if you want to equip lower tier gear you can but the differences in power level is really not that massive, at least when it comes to damage output. If you're a higher level you gain an extra reward for helping them plus the normal rewards for the quest, but the level itself does not change your stats (all stat increases are from different types of gear).
It's obviously not an MMO, but I think that's kinda the problem. The "MMO" format is just not really made for playing together with friends, it's specifically designed for you to enter a circle of friends that already play it, all of the systems for playing with a friend are either specifically designed around "new" players joining you, so they either allow you to power level them up to your level by hard carrying them, or allow you to "power" level them by bringing you down to their level. Since the games are ultimately not designed with the leveling system being nothing but a framework for a tutorial for the class you're playing, sure it can tell a cool story, but what MMO out there really cares about the mid game. Every MMO player talks about the game "starting" when you hit max level. Which may be a flaw in the design itself, at the very least the leveling doesn't really need to have stat increases as it is, it's not like any major (and alive) MMO has an in depth stat system anyway, it's all the ARPG "gear only" kind of design.
@@ultimaxkom8728 More like "not worth the effort". Because anything you can think of I can guarantee you a developer has tried it and it failed. I will never get over how much gamers think they know.
I agree on that. I feel like power is meaningless if I have no good reason to use it. I want more friends to play the game with but that doesn't mean I want to carry them. I personally don't like being carried because its boring. I think it has to be a middle ground. The logic against scaling down a player is extremely flawed if we are talking about a meaningful combat experience. People lose power in mmos all the time. when something gets nerfed its a loss of power. If something gets buffed its a loss of power against things that are weaker. Sometimes it happens, but please give me the option to do so. Player choice is what makes mmos so fun (imo at least), I would like more devs to respect that.
My feeling on level scaling, is, Batman and Robin.
I started thinking about this back when GW2 came out. Batman is better than Robin. Batman is higher level than Robin. Batman can take on tougher enemies than Robin can. But he's still human, he can still take damage, and even if Robin can take out a pack of thugs, Batman can't just sit there and get wailed on by them, he needs to at least make an effort to win, even if he is stronger than Robin and stronger than these enemies. So I like how GW2 handles balance, if you're mid level, higher level enemies are way too tough for you, they can shut you down, and lower level enemies are _easier_ for you than they were when you started, there is that sense that you've gotten stronger, but they are never _completely_ trivial, they can still do damage and take at least a few hits, they do take _some_ effort to take down, so you can actually contribute.
That's actually a really good analogy, holy shit.
Are you talking about exclusively open world GW2 or ?
@@Neroh01 I think it applies in general. GW2 actually handles things a bit this way, in that a level 80 character in a level 30 zone will be stronger than an actual level 30 and more easily able to fight things, but cannot absolutely demolish level 30 enemies, they will still put up something of a fight, compared to a lot of MMOs where anything five levels below you cannot harm you and you can one-shot them.
I prefer GW2's model to it, I feel that not only is it more fun, but it's also a lot more realistic, since a Robin can train to become a Batman, but not train to become a Superman, no matter how much a warrior trains, he should not be impervious to a sword to the face, he should just get better at _avoiding_ swords to the face, and have better tools to win such a fight.
@@timogul a level 80 player will always be stronger than a level 30 player in a level 30 zone, but its not of some scaling shenanigans. everything your character wears gets scaled down to stats those items would have at level 30, and ascended gear will always be stronger than the rares level 30 players will have.
its the traits. a level 80 player has all their traits still active, and can use all of them to be 5 times stronger than a low level player. BUT, if you want to play with your friend, you can simply take off your traits, and youll be only slightly more powerful if you have better items, and even then the item power creep in that game is nonexistent.
tl;dr: if youre level 80 and want to play with your level 1 friend, remember to take off your traits instead of worrying about items :)
@@dagbroad Well, sure, but even if you leave all the best gear and traits active, it's not _as_ obscenely broken as if a level 30 WoW player went back to farm in the starting regions. I mean, the advantage you have in a level 10 zone is much higher than you'd get in a level 20-30 zone where a player is expected to at least be on the road to a good build, but you still aren't _that_ much stronger than the level 10 character, enemies can still harm you if you let them, and they might take multiple hits to drop. :D
GW2 level scaling lets you keep all your abilities you learned at a higher level, and only downscales your stats, so leveling is meaningful even when downscaled. You also get drops relative to your actual level, so loot can still be meaningful. It really does do level scaling well.
That is actually cool. I am currently playing Ff14 and thought that leveling down, bit retaining your skills, especially when the whole party did the content, would be so cool. If you level up your character but only do dungeons and get queued into low level ones, you have no idea what your other skills do even though you level up
Not an mmo, but Nioh 2 tries to do the same. Been helping my friend who's not as used to action games and while my damage and health are cut down there's no way the game could make me not be able to very easily bully the lower difficulty enemies out of ki (stamina). The gear that drops from the fourth playthrough onwards is just too strong for it to actually work.
something else that gw2 also does is that mid level crafting resources still have a use in end game crafting. so if you are doing lower level content and get a mid level piece of gear, you can salvage it and still get actually useful resources out of it. doing lower level content drops both gear that is the contents level and gear that is your level
@@memoryunlimit6591 I think the reason they haven't done it is then people would discriminate against newer players with less skills unlocked, because they'd prefer someone who's higher level in the scale down who has more skills to use. It just won't work for FFXIV without problems.
@@pyrix if you go in with a full party beforehand and everyone agrees on it it shouldn't become a problem. Atleast there should be an option even if it is really restrictive
I do not agree with Callum on this.
Leveling up in WoW SHOULD not be to make things easier to kill and farm them. The game is designed right now for it, but leveling up should not be to make yourself infinitely more powerful, it should be to make yourself powerful enough for the place you're at currently and then further levels you get you do to gain access to further content. Next zones, new mobs, new drops. That's why GW2 for me had a brilliant leveling experience and I could just go around and do what I want, and not what the GAME wants me to on a railroad track. GW2 had it's problems that led to it not having stable growing player base - but level scaling was not it.
And on the example of the elite player having more knowledge and actual experience and using that to trash people in low level zones?
Yes! Good! That's how it should be! But both the experienced and the new players are in this scenario limited to the same extent. The state of the current WoW instead ESPECIALLY in PvP is that high level players have the advantage of knowledge, experience AND loot. How can you not be aware that this is even worse?
The current design of WoW where you get ridiculous amount of power and can just farm low level enemies is a direct detriment to my enjoyment of WoW.
It meant that even if I like a certain zone or it has maybe some interesting quests that would be fun to play through when I'm on their level - I cannot play them as they were intended cause I'm too powerful. The enemies are not characters any more - they're uninteresting faceless mobs. The quests are not stories - they're arbitrary GPS points to run through.
If you genuinely think this is fun gameplay - go "play" Excel. It's got as much fun factor as WoW grind.
Actually you get weaker when leveling. Mobs scale with you, but your gear ain't. Most noticeable in the last few levels and once when you hit max level where you are at your weakest in relation to the world.
Level scaling is a workaround of fundamental design problems. If a game _needs_ one, then it indicates that it's too lateral in its progression. Ok, check my vids for more. */j*
> infinitely more powerful
Found your problem. Leveling shouldn't make you infinitely more powerful. There's lots of midpoints between "infinite more power" and "no more power", which is the current dichotomy in most MMOs.
@@bobbycrosby9765 Keeping the game challenging is so much more important than making it easier. Modern MMOs are like the anti game these days, more you level the easier they get as you unlock skills, stats, survivability whilst monsters stay mostly the same.
Then just activate chromie time?. With scaling you shouldn't experience ridiculous amounts of power over your enemies. Old world enemies are still easy because they usually auto-attack but from cataclysm onwards there are enemies that cause you trouble if you don't stun/interrupt them.
I disagree with Callum, some of my favorite times during my times in WoW were leveling and questing, and having the issue of friends not being able to help without carrying was pretty lame.
However, I believe that more player choice is better, and if you can give individual groups the choice of toggling scaling, then let them. I think some of the best content is when the whole party is synced across the board and you actually have to WORK to win.
Also, if you are leveling in WoW to be stronger to kill low levels, that is missing the point. You forgot about that level 50 mob that roams around in the level 20 zone that you auto-walked into and got one shot by and you were pissed so you went back and told that mob, "One day I will return, and it will be your time. Pray that day does not come." As you hopped on your silver-white steed, wooden shield on back, hardly a cloak, not even a decent set of shoulders, you knew that day would come still.
...And so it did. You road back, full plate-metal armor, triumphantly dawning Pauldrons of the Ancient Lightwardens, a sword thicker than your ex-wifes wedding cake, heavier than Goliath, mightier than the Alpha or even the Omega. You've returned to exact your almighty revenge.
He dropped 4 silver and an outdated pair of blue boots.
Worth it.
Just reminded me of getting smoked by Mor'ladim and Stitches in WoW back in the day lol
@@DrDipsh1t Ah a classic mistake, literally
@@DrDipsh1t The damn elite Alliance outriders in the Barrens. By the time you realise they agro, it's too late.
Callum's argument is just that the raw power delta between levels shouldn't be so outrageous that you just "carry" in earlier areas without any application of skill. I generally agree that that's a better option.
@@Ithirahad And yet, 'any mmo with level scaling is shit.'
He can't have it both ways.
Heavily disagree with Callum here. Level scaling can be lazy and implemented poorly, but it is done well in a number of games. Two games, one with level scaling and one without, does not automatically make the without better. You have to consider context, which Callum does not in regard to this topic.
I also wonder what this illusion of his is that a lower level player would want him to funnel all the items to them. As Josh said, it doesn't feel like I deserve it if someone just throws gear at me from enemies they killed in 1hit and honestly makes the game very boring and unrewarding.
But he did have a context and elaborated on why he thinks its bad and didn't say the lower level player wants the gear, just that since the high level player won't pick it up, the lower level player is just inhaling items off the ground instead of actually playing
1:09
Everquest had a "shroud" system for exactly what Josh describes here. Basically you went up to a Shroud Master NPC, brought up a menu of various shrouds available to you to change yourself temporarily into. Now these shrouds were in fact monsters from various parts of the game with their respective skills, stats, perks, etc. You could also choose what level you wanted your shroud to be.
So if your lower level buddy played a cleric and you yourself was a high level magician you obviously wouldn't get much to do together. But you could shroud yourself as some Orc Warrior of level close to your friend and pair up with them just like that.
Moreover, the loot and XP you earned while shrouded would get transferred to your regular character after you return to your usual self. And your shrouds could get upgraded to further tiers like Orc Barbarian or Orc Warpriest or whatever.
A pretty cool and sadly overlooked system that could surely get spun over in some modern MMOs.
I remember this, but had forgotten the name of it! We used this when someone was gone and we had to try and find a workable group. Our enchanter was sick so I ended up as a fairy for a weekend. I don't think many people used this, but I loved it.
I was resisting yelling at me screen about this system. This is exactly what they are talking about. EQ did an amazing job with this and I've played EQ off and on since it launched and played with many friends using this system. If Josh ever does EQ1 I really hope he points this system out because other devs do watch his show
@@DantesTyphoon Unfortunately Josh is more about new player experience and even modern EQ is quite... jarring to say the least. Yes, there's a nice tutorial section and all but the UI is hella bloated from all the years of stuff kept getting jammed over and over. And once the tutroial is over there is literally zero directions as to where to go and what to do. So I wouldn't expect him to delve deep into it.
Don't get me wrong. I love EQ, even despite never playing it when it was the hot stuff. In fact, I've only gotten into it just some 2 years ago. And even though the game's dated it satisfies me more than any other MMO out there nowadays. But it still took me quite some time to get used to it, its UI, its mechanics and slower pace of everything. Only after a whole 3-4 evenings of me stumbling with it I finally could feel comfortable playing it.
@@Noxmare Josh is kind of all over with his takes. He wants new player experience and grouping to be as painless as possible because it's accommodating, modern and popular, but understands challenge and struggle makes memorable experiences that build relationships and game loyalty. I guess he's kind of like most 30 year+ MMO players, pining for the past that simply isn't there, isn't possible for working people and deemed economically not viable as an industry. Even mostly console game Destiny 1/2 didn't have a group finder for it's raids, and Elden Ring merciless in it's punishment like most souls games, yet was still very popular. Not everything has to be incredibly streamlined.
Interesting system
I honestly vastly prefer Gw2's Downleveling system to most other games. Recently I was helping a friend get into FF14, and I was exactly in the situation that Josh was describing. for 95% of the things we did, I had the option of either 1-shotting everything for my friend, or standing around doing nothing. Even when she encouraged me to just nuke the enemies so she could get through the chaff faster, I still felt really bad, because it didn't really feel like either of us were *playing* the game.
Conversely every time I've gotten a friend into GW2 it's been a pretty smoothe time. Whether I make a new toon to mess around with or come in with an established toon, I can still feel like we're both engaging with the game even if we're pretty much never in any real danger. Part of why I think the downleveling system in Gw2 works, is because that the core tenants of Gw2 are consistent whether you're playing low or high. Gw2 has combat that is engaging and skill expressive, it has an open world that is fun to explore and rewarding to explore no matter your level, and it has a constant stream of events spawning in that scale to the number of players in the area. If I'm playing in a low-level area, sure I will still kill most things significantly faster than a player just at that level, but there'll be more than enough opportunities for all of us to engage the map, and some fights are even scaled to be tackled by multiple players. I don't have to worry about trivializing the game for my friends, and I don't have to feel like my presence is actively taking away from their experience with a game that I love.
I have the same problem with just overlevelling in general that just trivialises the content and makes the game a boring unchallenging snoozefest, something that is a problem with modern MMOs today that give too much xp, especially if you do any kind of side content you get flooded with it. What I loved about classic WoW was that struggle to survive, that danger of the wandering elite pack in the open world, the elite mob areas that needed a group to get through. The fact that you can be over levelled even doing no extra sidecontent in FF14 forces you to multijob or you have a broken levelling experience.
Was it not leveling you down to their level or did you not have an option? I am wondering, I never was in a group in such a setting and only know the scaling from dungeons, where it works quite well.
@@doppelkammertoaster scaling works in dungeons, fates and that's it. Problem is unless there's a fate going on, which my friend wasn't doing since she wanted story progress, the open world doesn't really....do much. So we were mostly playing can driver and on demand chaff removal for any non dungeon content
@@bottlecapster9586 That's too bad! So you basically can also only do scaled quests outside of dungeons/fates as well.
Why not just make level matter but not that much, If a few levelups improve you Damage and Resilience by 10% most people will do that. You still are able to beat the Bandit leader you struggled with much more comfortably now, but its not like you can just stand there and Spamclick one Ability.
I know it Conflicts with the Power-Fantasy of MMORPGs but isnt it also much more "Realistic" to grow in Small but noticable Increments rather than Exponential Power growth ?
I do find it interesting that you are both describing the difference of playstyle my wife and I struggle with. She levels to become more powerful, gain skills, organize raids, pvp on a large scale, and gain power that she will use to crush her enemies. Me, I am leveling just to see the story and be in the best looking gear. This is one of the reasons GW2 was a great game for us to play together in the past. We both enjoy wandering around and even going into some low level zone and doing stuff in the newbie zone can get us things we both need to accomplish our goals.
I cannot abide Callum's ridiculous take on this. Seeing Game X has (in his words) any kind of level scaling and immediately being turned off is a completely braindead way to approach video gaming full stop. I couldn't care less what kind of mechanics are in place to solve these kinds of issues as long as *everyone enjoys themselves* - that is the only outcome that matters in video GAMES. As such the scale-the-mobs-to-the-player version of level scaling from WoW sucks because it takes away any sense of progression, while the scale-the-player-down-to-the-content version from FF14 is pretty good as makes it keeps enormous amounts of the content alive and relevent (again, something WoW is appallingly bad at, I'm not a wow-bashing FF14 addict, I promise)
But if level scaling takes away a player's enjoyment, is that not part of the outcome? What makes that braindead versus not being fond of other mechanics? I happen to like becoming overpowered and rolling everything. Losing that for whatever reason just isn't my style. It's much of the reason I choose not to play with other people. I don't personally get the same fulfillment going back and doing the same quests again or facing the same "challenges" again because that "first time" experience just doesn't come back. The relevance and engagement don't come back. It's just "Ah, I've gotta slog back through here again," not feeling like I'm getting anything out of it in either case. Rather, the idea that I can do more now than I could then is what brings me fulfillment. (Games with mission clear times caress that nerve so well for me.) If I can't do that, what _am_ I progressing?
In any case, I don't think scaling is bad on paper, per se, more that it's just very much not for some people and should be strictly optional rather than forced. I get why some want it, I get why others don't, and both should be able to have their way without conflicting the other.
@@DrPonk I literally said the enjoyment is the important part, not how you get there. Try actually reading and thinking - you're as braindead as Callum, jesus christ.
If some games have bad implementations of level scaling, this does not immediately imply all implementations of level scaling are bad. HOW SIMPLE IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND?
@@DrPonk One shotting low level mobs has really bad consequences for lower level players. Playing with other high levels becomes a brain dead following experience whilst high levels have no challenge either. Whilst also making it incredibly easy for high levels to grief low levels. Seen it happen in countless 2000s MMOs before they started to become modernised to fix these blatent problems. Besides if you want progression, just keeping playing endgame, it literally exists for that reason, no problem if you don't care to redo low level content, it should just be an option for those who do want to or to help out new players.
@@cattysplat
I feel like we said a lot of the same things in different words and I'm with you by default
Calum was really missing Josh's premise like Josh wants to be able to play with friends as a max level character and take them through an experience he enjoyed in a balanced way
Also I get what he's saying that more MMOs should have different level scaling but its not wrong for an MMO to want to level you from like some guy with a pike to eventually being literally God like its not objectively good or bad and it could be nice to go from being God to then playing with your friend with just a sword again without losing a character
Yeah, he let his ego dictate his views here, it was really jarring to see someone repeat his response for like 20 minutes and not listen to a word Josh was saying. He never addressed any of Josh's examples.
One point about GW2's deleveling that wasn't brought up in this. A max level character who has been through all the expansions getting deleveled in an early game map is still a more powerful capped lvl character than a new character who just reached that level. This is because deleveling only affects character level stats and armour stats.
Say you have a lvl 80 with ascended lvl 80 gear, you go into a lvl 10 capped area. Your lvl and item lvl are both 10, so you have stats of a lvl 10 with ascended lvl 10 gear but you still have everything else. You have your Sigils, Runes, and most importantly, your traits and build.
Exactly. However, the most important thing to note is that your build (generally) does not play itself. To actually make use of the advantage it provides, you actually have to know how your build works, and play it effectively. I feel like that is what sets GW2's downscaling apart from the rest - it prevents mindless overleveled facerolling, but you can still be quite powerful if you actually know how to play what you earned.
@@jamesklee Mostly, you don't need your raid optimized rotation to kill mobs but you do need to know how your skills play with each other. You can also die if you're not careful to the low level mobs.
warframe, with the constant need to master frames, and weapons and such made a really nice way to make it organic, you can jump into a not maxed out gear and play under leveled compered to your best with your new player friends and be beneficial for them in power leveling and also beneficial to you, it also makes you go back with events and whatnots to the early levels, so those early zones are never abandoned and played only by the few new players.
True, the ability to just take your mods off and be almost identical in power to a new player is pretty nice for the real endgame (helping others)
@@tatri292 On the flip side a newbie trying to do anything to have fun in that game just gets crushed. The boys and I have tried to help about 6 friends get going but the newbie decides very quicky they don't want to play a boring game.
I also prefer to just bring a max AP wisp and buff the ever loving shit out of the newbie and bring terrible weapons.
@@fvb7 That's smart, I'll try this!
I think level scaling is important when it comes to keeping older content relevant and its also useful when different players are getting different things from content. Using FFXIV as an example you could have 4 players running the same lv 40 dungeon for different reasons;
1) the new player experiencing the content for the first time to progress the story
2) the player with a few max level characters that is leveling a different job
3) the player running the dungeon for relic weapon resources
4) the player running the dungeon for a specific piece of gear for a glamour
For me at least, its about incentivising different players to engage with content for different reasons to help keep content evergreen for newer players. Josh himself has made the point of new content effectively removing older content and this helps prevent this.
F madatory level scaling it makes the whole level system completely pointless, nothing stops developers from making the dungeon attractive in other ways. Give the dungeon really rare cosmetic loot that some high level players will still come back to or a unique augmentation that changes spells/gear and then have OPTIONAL level scaling to multiply your loot chance for every 5 levels downscaled or so. There are endless options but a pure level scaling is terrible.
@@xBox360BENUTZER Yes, because it's fun to be in a queue and then not do anything because overleveled retards use that instead of - what FF14 - has the option to NOT USE A QUEUE. Great way to kill your playerbase, I know I've stopped playing a shitton of MMORPGs that allowed for that kinda stuff, but had dungeons set to be too hard for 2 players if me and the friend I tried a shitton with would try that.
But I guess people that like to not play a game wouldn't understand that, which I have to assume people that want it to not be mandatory at the very least in queues with randoms that include low level have to be.
I only agree that the further you scale down, the higher the dropchacnes sounds like a great idea however. It'd give the level more meaning for sure. But making it not mandatory for QUEUES(which, again, for the FF14 example is the only thing where it even is mandatory) would be cancer still, because people would just break the game for anyone trying to play it that's new to it or leveling a new character/class.
Taking the FF14 example heavily here, because that is what RabbidKuriboh was also speaking about.
@@xBox360BENUTZER well, its not pure level scaling in ff. the daily roulettes gives you with your lvl 90 Character the stones for better gear and lots of exp for everything under 90 + old stones for lvl 50, 60, 70 and 80 gear. we also have a ton of events that includes mostly older content, one dungeon drops a mount and most of them pets at the end - you only need dice luck.
honestly my biggest gripe with level scaling in FFXIV specifically is losing all my skills and then monotonously clicking 1-2-3 for 20 minutes. And the fact that for some reason DNC having 1 aoe + Standard Step at lvl 15 is ok, but DRG having AN AOE is illegal until lvl 40
Do remember that level scaling is only a band-aid solution. It's the easiest, fastest, and *cheapest* solution, but it is also the least that _actually_ fix the root problems, _if any._
It's hard to find a more DISJOINTED conversation. Most of the time you are talking about different things or you have different assumptions. John tries to frame the discussion but it's just all over the place. Interesting all the same.
Who's John?
@@TensaZangetsu1200 Garfield's owner.
This was the same problem they had in one of the last talks they had together. In talking about difficulty and MMOs.
The best part of that one was Callum complaining about runescape putting one Bloodwood tree outside the PVP with the rest being inside, saying how no one went in the PVP area for the trees there and just made alts for it. And then 10 minutes later talking about how to structure rewards and make things that are punishing more efficient in order to make players engage in that content. Like, did you not just have this waved in your face what happens when you do that? 🤔
Couldn't agree more. I kept thinking when Josh started pointing stuff out: "Yeah, but that's from a pve perspective"; and when Callum counterargued: "Yeah, but that's pvp perspective".
Specially in the twinking portion of the video. Twinking was mainly for pvp purposes, and it usually was a resource that high lvl players had to "had fun".
From all the mmo's I've played, the only game I've seen achieve a decent balance is FFXIV, but still not that good. GW2 is on a close second, but it's not that friendly to returning players as I would've hoped.
Still, I agree, great conversation nevertheless
@@loupinconnu I'm not understanding how those arguments conflict. It sounds to me like he'd appreciate a change like having 5 or so bloodwood trees in the PVP area that respawn quickly and only a single tree that takes a very long time to respawn outside the PVP area. And didn't he say that the idea of the bloodwood tree was good UNTIL they added additional trees outside the PVP area, removing the unique challenge presented by trying to chop it?
I'm with Josh, I should absolutely be able to play with a buddy without starting a new character, all the time invested is effectively a waste.
Have you tried creating Co-op Chars? and then having your main be your solo?
@@Vanished584 That works if you have 1 person who has maxed their char and is looking to make an alt. Otherwise it's still the same issue. We tried this with friends before, where we create a char and we only play that char together. After a week or so of dual leveling I was so sick of doing everything multiple times that we both just abandoned those chars. IMO the best thing WOW could do is simply offer a scaled server experience on Retail as a standalone server. But having to develop 2 system in tandem would probably be a nightmare.
ESO did it great, too. Of course, having the highest amout of (was it called Champion Points?) made you slightly more efficient at killing stuff/healing allies, but you could still play with friends no matter their level. Want to do a quest line together? Great, there's no minimum level requirement. Want to do dungeons together? Great, most dungeons can be done after level 20 as well! I also enjoyed that any class had at least two different combat roles they could do, which made it great for joining friends. Just hop over to the nearest church for your re-spec.
Callum is wrong, sure in GW2 I get put down to level 6 , but unlike a level 6 player I have all 10 skill buttons, and can still do more damage than a person who is level 6, sure I cannot solo some champions/events and world bosses in those zones, but that is the point.
Came here to comment this. GW2's downscaling system uses formulas that account for both your *real* power and the zone's *expected* level. So, you still have to pull punches in the super low level zones, but past level, like, 20-25, your main advantages are having all your options and actual experience, but you still get a bit of a boost that leaves you feeling stronger than when you originally came through.
Also, what the level is doing then is gating areas of the map until you have explored the story or mechanics prior to what that level requires, but then you can still go back and play the rest of the map enjoyably
At around 15:30 Josh gets it right I think, as to how it works in GW2
Callum is taking what Josh is saying, puts it into context of how it would work in RS, and then makes his conclusions, even if Josh is talking about gw.
Yeah, was pretty weird. Callum wasn't listening, just repeating himself about how RS does it best. I've never seen him make such a pointless argument and ignore everything Josh was saying.
FFXI does have a level sync system that works pretty well. You choose a member of the party, and everyone in the group that's higher than the chosen level, is synced down. And since EXP is very static in the game, killing a monster that's 5 levels ahead of you at high level, is the same as killing a monster that's 5 levels ahead of you at level 10.
In GW2 you scale down when in a lower level region BUT your rewards for participating in an event, in that region, are based on your true level. There are world bosses in some lower level areas that you see filled with all levels of players. What you get is an event that is not dead because it is in a low level area. I don't know for a fact, but max level players might get appropriate XP. It is just your power that is reduced. You can easily see the scaling impact on your hero stats page, nothing is hidden. I recall WoW low level areas were dead. There was little interest of going there. This shows me that few people enjoy plowing through low level mobs and consider it a reward for leveling.
GW2 zones are not dead because the rewards still viable and have use even at high level. Plus there are map metas, plenty of resources to farm, some rollerbeatle racing and the odd high level invasion.
The unidentified gear and gear bags reward items based on your level. Plus low level gear salvages into crafting items that can only be gained from that low level gear, making it valuable since most high level end game players are not farming low level zones.
@@cattysplat I agree.
@@cattysplat I agree, for those that play the trade meta game this is probably important.
I enjoyed how City of Heroes did the level scaling. If you get scaled down, your powers would be determined by your scale, but you'd have access to powers you unlocked up to six levels above where you are dropped to. So if you were scaled down to level 6, your powers would be powered down to level 6, but you would have *access* to powers that you unlocked up to level 12. So you have access to more powers, but they aren't inherently more powerful.
Also lower levels got sidekicked up to one below the team leader, no extra powers but your fireball is doing level 49 damage. There was even custom enhancement scaling to make up for less slots. What it comboed with though, and I've not seen since, was customisable difficulty. Being able to go "this mission is a bit hard, set to level shift -1 instead of +1" made challenge a choice that was played controlled.
It kinda feels like Callum isn't listening to a single word Josh is saying, *only* having "reee level scaling" in his head even when Josh is explaining reasonable stances. Callum honestly felt disrespectful here.
I'm not a fan of Callum. He always sees the negative with games other than RuneScape and that RuneScape is the only good game
They differ on a very fundamental point. Josh wants the discussion to be open, to discover the possibility of veteran and newer players doing stuff together, and Callum thinks it‘s both unnecessary and impossible to have a system to the level Josh is proposing.
@@kuehnjakob Okay, Callum still comes off as disrespectful here, and when it's obvious he's not even listening and just keeps saying the same thing then he might as well not have been there. It just felt like he just kept reee'ing on it over and over.
The funny thing is, for all it's faults (many) Neverwinter let me play with my friends from the start and never stopped.
Unlike FF14 where quests literally forced me to drop party to do solo duties.
SWTOR was also good in this regard. My wife and I played through so many things together.
7:33 players don't level to max level so that they can kill a level 4 mob or so the starting zone is easier. Players level up to reach the "end game" content. Levelling is a tool to pace players unlocking content and systems, so that by the time they reach max level they understand their character and the game systems enough to engage in end game content.
yeah it sounds more like he just wants a power trip more than anything else
Josh should really try one of the City of Heroes private servers if he's into level scaling. That game does it better than just about any other. Doesn't matter what level you are you can jump into ANY group in the game(except a couple late game TFs/Hami raids) and be useful to the group and have fun.
I came to the comments specifically to write this exact message too.
Same here, City of Heroes/Villains had the great sidekick/mentor system so you can join friends regardless of level.
Yes, City of Heroes has a sidekick and mentor systems built into the game from the start. Any level can group with any other.
It was literally the game that Guildwars2 copied for that "Exemplar" system *(because they had the same publisher and knew eachother)
City of Heroes did the "jump in" well. Any player could become a mentor or mentee, and scale you to their level (up, or down). The XP/Rewards scaled to your true level. So, Level 40 and Level 20 could play together in either level 40 missions or level 20 missions - They even had travel powers that could be shared, so you could give flight or teleport your friends too.
Where is city of heroes now? Shut down, and reborn on semi-legitimate private servers. But you can still play it - I recommend City of Heroes Homecoming!
Callum is wrong here. Gw2 has a great level scaling and as you gain new skills and learn how to use your character you'll still be better despite being scaled down and now you can have a great experience and adventure with friends without destroying their experience by oneshotting everything.
And most hero points require exploration and these can be used to level different specializations. Loving gw2 these days
I remember this stream. It's the only time I've ever heard these two almost get in to a full argument about which was better.
It's mostly because Callum literally kept making the same argument over and over with just different words and completely ignoring everything Josh says. Josh is moving the conversation and elaborating and Callum just keeps restating the point using different examples. Callum's argument is circular.
@@BoogerLeader I agree. Disappointing since Josh felt really good faith and positive and Callum was just being negative the whole way.
@@AdvancedSquadLeader being negative is what callum does on youtube and what his content is in general. He feels like a contrarian defending his point for the sake of it being the way his favourite games do it.
Josh feels like he's actually interested in the topic itself. One of these people would make interesting, innovative systems.
I feel that this issue is also connected to the problem of MMOs "not starting until the endgame". New players feel the need to rush straight to the endgame because no one sticks around in the earlier areas. Experienced players aren't incentivized to play earlier content, and often would ruin the experience for newer players if they were incentivized to do so because of excessive disparity in power levels.
It's not even "connected". It's a restatement of the same problem in disguise. It's in the name. MMO. Massively Multiplayer... online game. The whole claim to fame is that you can play with other people. But before endgame, the level mechanics stop you from meaningfully doing that unless either the other people you're playing with joined at the exact same time (which almost never happens outside of launch) or you go through the motions of making another character and catching up to THEM (which is a pain in the ass and at best you might be willing to do it for one close friend or significant other).
Or, third option, you all just speedrun to endgame where you can actually play together and have a "massively multiplayer" experience of some kind. Problem is, a lot of video gamers in general aren't going to WANT to go through hours and hours of singleplayer content and grinding just to have a maybe-good cooperative experience at endgame. MOBAs, cooperative lobby games, and other online multiplayer formats cut out the middleman, and that's why they exploded in popularity and MMOG's/"MMORPGs" mostly stagnated.
@@Ithirahad Older MMOs had such a slow dangerous levelling experience, a higher level character was a massive boon to a lower level character just to enable being able to survive in the world which was designed not to be soloable. In modern MMOs that has never been the case, almost everything can be solod and higher level players would never deign to "waste their time" helping lower level players anyway, especially if it actively ruins the levelling experience, 1 shotting mobs is no fun for anyone.
The incentive of leveling isn't just power for most people. Its access to new areas, content, and items.
GW1 does have some level scaling in places, for example if you start Eye of the North at level 10 it will treat you as a level 20 character in terms of HP, hit damage etc ( indicated by an active skill icon on your UI ). Its a crazy game, i've been playing since 2006 and i'm still experiencing new things in the game like the Legionnaire summon stone, the Rollerbeetle racer pet which attacks 33% faster than regular pets but moves slower, the new meta for ( insert class ), in my case Ranger. Paragon is more desirable now due to the new Anniversary Elite skills, he has an Elite Echo skill that can boost the entire parties attribute points by several, like Candy Corn or Golden Egg consumables. This makes builds that utilize high amounts of points invested in 4 different attributes more viable now.
I would love to play gw1.. Gw2 is my first and only mmo and just the thought of me being able to visit the past is so exciting to me
when i've seen everything that gw2 can offer ill go play some gw1
Still a long way to go tho
I liked that City of Heroes had a Mentor and Sidekick system.
When mentoring someone, you'd artificially lower your level to the same of the target player. The Mentor kept all his unlocked powers but the scale of their powers reflected that of the target player. That gave the target player a bonus in XP while the Mentor got a bonus in loot drops (of their original level) and it allowed the mentor to follow their paired player along in their missions and fighting enemies appropriate for their level.
As for the Sidekick system, a sidekick would instead be artificially be increased to the level of the target player minus 1. Likewise, the scale of the sidekick's power reflected the increased level but they didn't unlock or have access to powers they haven't learned yet. As such, it allowed sidekicks to follow their paired player into higher level dungeons and while they weren't AS powerful as a player of the level they were synced at, they were powerful enough to run the content.
As for balancing games for challenges, I see progress in power in a 3 dimensional way : vertical, horizontal and depth.
Vertical progress is when you level up and your stats increase; your character just becomes naturally stronger so the rest of the world becomes a bit less dangerous to them but they become more dangerous to anything below their level. It is all statistic-based power increase that means that whoever you'd put behind the keyboard / controller of that character would simply be more powerful overall. It's very common in JRPGs and that's mostly how many MMOs deal with advancement.
Horizontal progress is not stats increasing but it is options opening up to the player for their class. Unlocking a brand new ability or changing how an existing ability functions, extending combo chains, passive traits that provide players with more information (longer detection ranges for resources nodes for example). They do not make you stronger in a numerical way (or at least not as much as vertical progress) but they do make you stronger in that you're better equipped to either play your role or deal with situations.
Finally, depth progress is straight up player skill. No matter how good or how varied the skillset the character / class has, the more the player knows on how, when and where to use the abilities their kit has, the better they performs. This is tricky as it is the one variable that the game can't control and is entirely subjective to the player. It is also the only variable that, over time, will vary in progress continually no matter how many times the player resets their character's progress. It's those "new" characters you meet in dungeons that, for some reason and from the game telling you that it is their first time doing that run, easily avoids damage, does a lot of damage and knows the mechanics ahead of time.
So in essence, the only two variables a dev can bank on and control is both vertical and horizontal progress. So if you have a game where progress is very vertical, then the scale in power increases dramatically for each level difference there is; if the progress is very horizontal, then the stats of the character doesn't increase much, or at all, but they have a lot more options to strike or counter enemies and other players. I figure level syncing comes down to reducing either or both vertical and horizontal progress (like FFXIV does for earlier dungeons)
You don't keep your powers when going down in level in CoH, you don't even keep your enhancements, we relearned that lesson quite recently when a guildy respecced and picked up travel quite late, luckily we had tp friend or else he'd been stuck sprinting places during Synapse.
Wished I got to play this game when it was still officially active. Not a fan of private servers but better than dying out completely.
One of the reason I love Guild Wars 2.
City of Heroes was actually really good for letting people play together at any level difference, and to do meaningful stuff.
I think gw 2 does it best you get leveled down yes but you keep your exotic, ascended, legendary gear, so you a little more powerful so you keep what you earned but you're not instakilling everything
You also have more options as you lvl up (skills, mounts, mechanics).
I feel like level in GW2 does more of a walking of mechanics and story so that it is chronicle and has progress, but you still can just play the game forever in one zone if you wish
@@dragonlloux the horizontal progression or guildwars is the best I have ever seen in a game, playing wow you work so hard for your gear grinding every day for it and in a month it is obsolete, in gw2 I have no worries about investing time and currency into gear for this reason
@@hck49 GW2 is probably one of the only games to blend old school and modern MMO tropes together. A lot of old school games had a horizontal progression as a big deal with different pieces of gear being more important than others for different occasions. BiS wasn't a thing as a blanket term until the likes of WoW and other Themepark/modern MMOs. It was more "Best for the occasion." GW2 is like a combination of BiS and BfO in that each build excels at certain things and certain content and as such different sets and stats are valued differently.
MMOs used to be about making friends and hanging out and getting into trouble. They were social. Now they feel like theme parks and less about the social.
Everquest 2 has a nice mentor system. It lowers your level to your friend and scales your skills and gear numbers down accordingly. It even grants the mentored player bonus exp.
One nuance with gw2 downscaling: levels unlock abilities and traits. A level 80 downscaled to level 10 is still overpowered by all standards in that zone, but you don't one shot enemies by breathing on them.
I disagree to an extent with Callum. At least in Classic WoW, the content doesn't only begin at Max level. The most fun I had other than raids was lower level dungeons and gaining loot from there that would reach accompany me for the next 10-20 or more hours of my journey. It does feel like meaningful progression. Once you reach Max level though your gameplay options kind of plummet. All that's really left to do is raiding or farming. So in a way, the leveling time I'd actually the most enjoyable and meaningful time for me. That doesn't mean the scaling is done well, especially as of WOTLK the Max level scaling is completely broken. You become like 20x as powerful with 80 compared to level 70
Classic wow has some of the best feeling leveling progression of any MMO. Getting a new piece of gear, unlocking a new big talent, upgrading skills, all feels amazing
classic wow leveling sucked donkey balls. Boring copy-paste quests, laborious grind (especially before the final patches,) horrible "something spawned on me randomly so at best I can get away, but I'll probably die, and there's no way to finish this fight successfully."
WoW sucked ass until Lich King where they finally tuned the classes to enable more skillful players to have toolkits to deal with abnormal situations more than once an hour, finally had decent quest design, cut down on the horrible grind to get to relevant content that wasn't just leveling grind. The Recruit a Friend 3X xp also made it possible to almost skip all the boring ass Vanilla shit.
@@Meton2526 you are making some good points, and Wrath did improve on a lot of these aspects. But at the same time it destroyed a lot of good things as well, or streamlined them out of existence. It all but removed shy incentive to run low level dungeons through the implementation of heirloom gear, for example. You have your best equipment with each level, and you are faster on your own. It basically cut out what made the the leveling process meaningful, and made it into nothing a means to an end, which is to reach max level. That is if course the end goal anyway, but it's unfortunate that the only way they found to improve/accelerate it was by basically taking out the RPG element.
With all its flaws, Classic in its slowness and groundedness (with no flying mounts either) felt the closest to a true RPG WoW ever did imo. I would ideally want the best of both worlds, where we could have the groundedness and RPG feel if classic along with better class design.
@@holysecret2 Leveling was always flawed and meaningless. Vanilla wasn't meaningful, it was just a much longer grind through that meaningless. Nothing you did at level 20 was still useful at 60. People weren't raiding in Wailing Caverns gear. Those low level dungeons felt a LOT better game-play wise than solo leveling, so it feels bad that they were routed around in expansions, but that didn't make them meaningful during Vanilla, just less obnoxious.
@@Meton2526 certainly not the gear, but both your experience playing your character and perhaps the people you meet along the way will remain relevant. I have met several people through dungeons or by doing elite quests together that I still know to this day. And I have worked out exactly how an ability or my class works, or worked out macros to improve my ability to deal with all kinds of situations by testing it in many different contexts with random people in instances.
I just did LBRS earlier today with a random group, with the current +50% XP buff it feels like a really nice leveling tempo. If that was baseline I think that would be the perfect leveling speed. No heirlooms or further streamlining required. The warrior was very happy to get a new axe, the warlock was glad to get the powerful cloth leggings from the first boss, the tank got a shield, all moments that probably wouldn't have happened like this in WOTLK or in later expansions.
So a general +50% XP buff would be something I would accept, and maybe even some repeatable dungeon quests for those who like to do more dungeons on the side
My personal preference on a "play with a friend" system would be a combination of two things. First, an "opt in" scaling of the high level player down to the low level friend combined with allowing the high level to participate in the same things that the low level friend is doing. Second, a rewards system that gives the high level player some form of resources or currencies useful to them but at at least a bit slower rate than if they were doing high level content. Maybe random loot bag drops that contain random level appropriate useful things.. food, potions, gear/upgrade currencies, reputation tokes, fun use toys/trinkets, etc. Maybe low level appearance gear could be mixed it (side note: I wish WoW would remaster the early game gear for transmog use).
I would have to disagree with Callum, the levels need to feel rewarding so you need more than a 1% power increase. That being said, level scaling needs to be optional.
Tiny Tina's Wonderlands scales the enemy levels to each player; max level players fight max level enemies, and lvl 1 players fight level 1ish enemies.
It's great for co-op, whether helping out or carrying. Obviously the higher level players will have all the benefits of the extra stuff their gear provides, but to be this has been the best way to co-op with vastly different player levels.
I think Borderlands 3 did this really well, where they had instanced level scaling for co-op.
So a high level player could fight high level enemies, at the exact same time and in the exact same area as a low level player fights the same enemies, but in their game they would be at an appropriate lower level.
Wow. A sentence I never thought I’d read, “boarderlands 3 did it well”.
@@lucrative6477 You'd be surprised. There's a lot of mediocre games that do some niche stuff really well that don't get talked about because the package as a whole is lacking.
If we are totally honest here, wow does offer that option with level scaling and redoing leveling quests.
Arguably you want have meaningful rewards if you are max level, but any alts can get xp that way. And you still play with friends without just rushing them with a max character.
FFXIV actually solves a lot of the problems discussed here pretty well. Seeing this video made me realize that. The only thing it does not do, is offer a new player meaningful content to tacle on with friends, as the story is mostly a single player experience.
dude, thats the whole discussion tho, and u just said they didnt solve that. I tried liking ffxiv, i downloaded 5 times and reached level 55 and for me it was the dullest game ive ever played. The most meaningless early game development and nothing to do with higher level friends, only forced to play through the boring part of the game alone.
@@Damysus1 it wasn't the entirety of the discussion. There was also plenty of talk about incentives for max level characters who want to play with new characters, which is something XIV does very well.
I do find there is very limited 'things' for new players to get into right away in FF, as the game revolves around the traditional 'slow burn' both story-wise and in the way content is released to you. Josh's idea of a couch co-op is really interesting. Though that arguably already exists (Gold Saucer).
@@Damysus1 uhhhh no? about 2/3 of this whole discussion was more about forced scaling *downwards*... about how to give incentives to higher level players so that they want to deliberately get matched with newer players. Something XIV actually does really well.
But it still comes at the cost of forced level scaling which is Callum's main problem throughout this discussion. Which, i kinda agree to an extent, but Josh' point about how experienced players can just carry newbies and ruins their new player experience if there's no forced scaling is also spot on.
With respect I think FF14 does this, possibly the worst of any game I've ever played. There is nothing I dread more than doing a daily random dungeon and getting stuck in a low level dungeon with 80% of my abilities locked away. The story, the main draw of the game, is exclusively a single player experience, in an MMO, which is criminal. Then on top of that nearly ALL the multiplayer content is locked behind the single player JRPG storyline. FF14 takes every conceivable measure it can to prevent you from playing with your friends at the start of the game. It DOES NOT WANT you to play with the existing player base until you've paid your dues, taken your knocks, and watched Uringer weave his 46th monologue about god knows what. I have never in my life had a worse time with an MMO than with FF14 trying to play with my friends when starting out.
@@ArkThePieKing and yet it's still one of the best in offering players ways to play with each other among the top MMOs.
And if you can't handle playing through the story, you can always skip. I'd say the story boost is easily worth the money for people like you and your friends.
This problem is why I really love the design of Palace of the Dead in Final Fantasy 14. PotD only requires you to be level 15 to unlock(maybe an hour of playing) and scales EVERYONE down to level 1 and you level independently together up to 60 very quickly as you fight your way through the floors. There's unique systems, traps, and items in here to make it more fun and there are very valuable rewards up for grabs for everyone. It also provides experience for your current job when you clear the boss at the end of every 10 floors so people flock to it for quick leveling as well. Floors get much harder as you progress and the challenge is very fun and rewarding to complete with friends. I kinda got addicted to FF14 and powered through the game to max level when I started, so I was really happy to have something like this to complete with my friends who were still just starting.
One hour to 15. Dang I was slow 😅
This was a quit moment for me with Genshin Impact. I played with a friend who was much higher level than me and basically got carried through an area I was under leveled for. The entire time, I was thinking how much more fun it would be if they were scaled to my level
That's the reason many friends left Warframe too. Either you play alone/with friends if they are online or you go public and have such a high difference in powerlevel that you either feel like playing alone or you get teammates who clear everything before you even see an enemy....
@@TheAzureGhost you can choose to make yourself weak in warframe tho..
@@tic_attack6215 thats why i said it's a problem with public and not with friend groups, cause there it almost never happens that someone who is playing lower content matches their frame+gear to it.
Agreed with you, kinda suck that there's no scaling to other people's world level, even then, after we're on the same world level, there's so little to do
Final Fantasy XI does level sync well. It allows high level players to play with low level players while also allowing high level players to earn merit points and focus on capping skills if they havent already done so.
Cannot disagree more with callum here. Leveling is not rendered meaningless by the scaling down. Rather it is being removed as a barrier from playing with your friends. The higher level player gets nothing out of it, other than fun with friends. This does not remove the incentive to level up, since the low level content is not intended to be farmed anyway. Level is a fundamental part of some games, level scaling removes it as a barrier from being able to play with your friends.
GW2 feels differently and proves Callum wrong entirely. GW2's scaling still leaves you feeling powerful in lower areas but not invincible. And loot is still useful to you because it drops for your real level rather than scaled level. So it leaves you feeling powerful but not invincible and loot is still useful. Then again, GW2's loot system has always been different from most MMOs.
Borderlands 3 and Wonderlands does a great job of giving options for co-op play. I really enjoy that it scales your enemies to your level, regardless of who is host and stage of the game.
More games need this type of scaling.
SWTOR has a leveling scaling thing so high level players can play with lower level players. Heroic quests in SWTOR are always useful no matter what level you are and you can start them on your first planet.
Wildstar was also fantastic at this.
Agree, I play GW2 and loved to see the system in SWTOR when I first start playing it.
City of Heroes does exactly what Josh talks about. High level players can be scaled to lower level players and vice versa, based on who ever is party leader. The enemies are not scaled. What a great system.
As a clan leader in Lineage II, I had quite the success integrating lower-level players into (PvP) sieges. Sure, they were instantly dead if caught in enemy (or even "friendly") fire, but it didn't matter. They were busy doing logistics (getting consumables where they were needed) and, very importantly, recon tasks.
L2 does a good job in this topic due to its subclass system, where the high lvl player delevels (to get extra rewards later). You can play with low lvl players like this.
I support the idea of low level players having more participation in mid-high lvl content. Not everything is fighting.
City of Heroes did this as well. You could just "sidekick" with your buddies
Honestly it feels like the problem here is treating power as just bigger numbers. If levelling up is about gaining more abilities or different specs, and not just being the same as before but stronger, then even if your strength is scaled down your progression is still meaningful.
Josh made that argument with GW2 and GW1, Callum disagreed, though it seemed like Callum was just angry about the discussion because his responses didn't even relate to Josh's comments. He literally repeated his exact same argument just changing the examples.
Star Trek Online downscales/upscales party members to the leader. And you can just teleport to whatever activity leader starts.
When it comes to level syncing i really have to give credit to swtor for not taking away abilities you've gained from leveling up, so even when you go to one of the starting planets and get downscaled to level 10 or similar you don't lose the majority of abilities you've gained and this is appearently the same way gw2 handles this.
This is something i really hate when e.g. ff14 does level sync and now all of a sudden all the abilites you had with your actual level are taken away and unusable, that personally always bummed me out.
I think there is a better balance somewhere in the middle. Having all your abilities clearly breaks much of the low level game even with scaling, WoW low level dungeons especially feels like this. Timewalking in WoW has to put a massive ilvl penalty (usually green tier gear of that expansion) to prevent facerolling these old dungeons, sometimes the balance is way off in difficulty.
honestly i think an anime had the best solution to one of the problems presented here. in the anime, the high-level player has the ability to scale himself down to the level of his team. while i can think of a problem with that, i think it does mainly solve the issue of just wanting to hop in and play an mmo with your low level friends
6:50 But WHY should the level be the reward for the work? Why not thinking into different aspects instead of that classic Runescape-ish way? I think FFXIV solves almost any level-sync problem you've been discussing, only negative thing I can think about it is that you'll lose your skills from later levels.
Callum really seems to struggle with this... He just can't let go of the 'old way' of designing RPGs.
@@thegamesforreal1673 It seems even more than that. It seems like in his mind certain games where perfect or close to it and seems baffled by the fact that not everyone thinks the same. He keeps bringing up RuneScape, and yea, it's fun but I personally wouldn't put it on a pedestal as a paragon of game design. It's impressive it's still going and, again, it's still fun. But advancements have been made and RuneScape and some of his other "perfect" games are more flawed than he allows himself to see.
That's just my take on it anyway. He's a smart dude, but even smart dudes fall victim to nostalgia goggles once in a while.
FF 11 had a solution for this after having major issues with players finding parties of players within 2 levels of themselves. They brought out level syncing a party so a 60 and a 10 can play together.
Scaling should just be turned way the hell down. Look at something like the first paper Mario. You peak out at double digits for everything, including health at 50, and damage not much higher than around 20.
Maybe make all damage and stat increases gotten via skills, and just keep all numbers small, with a big focus on new abilities rather than number bloat.
DND Provides a half example.
The big thing about a fifth level wizard is not the HP, or the asi at level 4. Its the new spells he has access to, including fireball.
You went from single target DPS to area of effect DPS, and that changes how you look at combat.
Fighters get a second attack, which they can use to shove someone back/off cliffs, or knock prone (advantage on hit until they get up), or grapple them, while still having a normal attack to use after.
If their hp or damage never increased, they would still feel the power of these abilities.
For a drop in/out MMO, something similar might work well. Hell, maybe with a skill slot limit like GW1, so learning new moves is tactical, not powerful.
TLDR smallest scaling possible with focus on new abilities.
that was my suggestion too, also if you fell your mage is too strong for your new group doing an easier dungeon you could just not use that fireball and replace it with a lower level spell
the game doesn't need to force you to downscale, just give you the capability of not one shooting every enemy
Sounds exactly like how Guild Wars 2 did it, which was why the stream chat brought it up a lot. People often say ANet's decision to slowly unlock the slots on the skill bar as you level up was a mistake (that was a post-launch change), but it ended up having the exact intended effect. Despite the level scaling, new players always have something to look forward to as they level instead of getting all of your kit at level 1.
It should be noted that, in Guild Wars 2, one of the biggest benefits from leveling up is unlocking your skills.
The automatic level downscaling doesn't remove your skills from you, it just reduces your numeric values to the appropriate level.
So, contrary to what Callum said, you still have the incentive and the reward of leveling up, even if you come back to an earlier level zone, and you'll still have an easier time than you had when you were first leveling up in that zone. You'll also be able to show your friend all the cool stuff your character can do without actually overshadowing them with your insane damage and one shotting everything.
Damn, Guild Wars 2 really does everything better.
For the most part, I like the FFXIV level scaling, except for the fact that it takes away your abilities. With the speed of leveling in the game as it is, when you're going through the MSQ, you'll often be 2-5 levels higher than the quest you're on, and all dungeons and solo instances are scaled to a lower level than you are, which means you're never using your new abilities in relevant content.
Worse than that, though, is when you're leveling alt jobs, you'll often be put in content at level 50 in roulettes. Main Scenario roulette is ONLY level 50 content and has some of the best XP of an individual roulette, and for a good few jobs, I leveled them solely through roulettes with friends, and because we had people at level 50-60 a lot, we were getting level 50 dungeons and trials, MSQ roulette was level 50, we'd get crystal tower raids at level 50, which meant that those of us at 60-80 never *actually* learned how our classes played above 50, and then when we finally did get content at 70 or 80+ we had double the amount of abilities that we had never used in practice.
Level syncing in FFXIV is a great way to have older dungeons still be the tiniest bit meaningful, because you can't just steamroll them and one-shot everything, but it's absolutely terrible for actually learning how your class plays above 50 because of the likelihood of getting a level 50 trial and alliance raid
Have you tried the "limited leveling roulette" option in the duty finder settings
@@dafire9634 That requires 4 people to use
My thoughts on level syncing in FFXIV are that it’s implemented perfectly, but the class action acquisition during leveling is terribly designed. Basically, every class should have their first Aoe by 15, their main OGCD (class defensive for tanks) by 30 , and their main rotation fully *complete* by 50. There should be no exceptions. Upgrades, buffing phases etc should follow.
It’s not the level syncing, it’s the class leveling design that’s flawed.
Well, you cant have everything u want. I think the level scaling is as good as it gets, sure it sucks to not have all your abilities but its hell a lot better than have a broken system trying to essentially nerf your power level with all the abilities you have access to to the level youre being scaled to. Just imagine how much work has to be done to make sure that everything is scaled just right at every level to scaled level. If u look at retail wow and how u lvl from 15 through dungeon finder or questing, its just sad, u get more abilities but u deal the same amount of damage % wise, no sense of progression in terms of power level.
I do agree that it is a problem that most of the content youre going to be doing when leveling an alt job is probably level 50 with few exceptions there and then. I think they should just release new roulettes for higher level content starting at 70 prehaps.
Overall, i do believe the level sync in ff14 works very well, its just that its intention has never been to let you learn your job. I think that your problem lies more with how the roulettes have been designed.
Roulettes exist to fill queues for the people running the content, not for the players that are running roulettes. That's the biggest flaw in thinking that gets all FF players. You're rewarded for providing the service of filling the queue, and as such they want the player doing the content at their level to be the best it can be. If you dropped a bunch of players with full 90 rotations into Satasha it would literally ruin the dungeon. You'd either have to scale back the veterans so far that they do literally nothing or you'd have them delete absolutely everything in seconds. It is by far the lesser of two evils to synch players down fully to at least somewhat preserve the experience for the new players even if potency creep and level scaling has made a lot of the old content significantly easier.
Final Fantasy XI:
+good level sync for playing with friends
++more horizontal progression
+decent social systems
++macros are powerful
++controller is arguably better
+++private server play for more classic experience is stable and awesome
I am not sure how many times you say it, the most friendly mmorpg is GW2. It's just works
i have never seen an mmo with so many story bugs. and many of them hit you at the very last cutscene. so, no...it doesnt "just work" . not at all.
@@kimrasmussen7188 No, a few. but nothing that gets in the way that much. to be fair, anet are faster these days at fixing them
@@marccarter1350 lol. the bug out rate is still at 50 % in mordy fight. and it will never get fixed, because there are so few people , who actualle get that far. mukluk had 3
of them in a row in one of the new metas.
good luck with that, youre gonna need it.
@@kimrasmussen7188 Each to their own. I really enjoy the game! :-)
Yeah, downscaling based on maps like GW2 does is actually very good and still preserves some of your power over being at that level naturally since you still have all of your passives and skills, it's just your stats that are downscaled. FFXIV does a true level capping where it even disabled your skills that would be obtained later.
WoW’s “Party Sync” feature does what you’re asking for here and I’ve enjoyed using it in the past.
My friend made a level 1 character, and once they got out of the new “starter island” thing, I was able to meet up with them on one of my max level characters, party up, and enable Party Sync, which scaled me down to their level bracket (which is effectively the same as being your friend’s exact level except you have access to more talents/abilities). Enemies scale to each of your levels up to a given bracket’s maximum, so fighting through dungeons or open world quests is a comparable challenge to both party members in terms of damage done as a percentage of enemy health (even though the numbers themselves are different for each player).
Example (not the real numbers; purely for conceptual explanation): My friend is level 10; enemies are level 10 for him, and hit them for an average of 5% of their HP during fights, while one of his abilities can hit enemies for about 10% of their HP. I’m scaled to level 30, enemies are level 30 for me, and they hit me for about 5% of my HP during fights (though I have better gear equipped from my time playing at higher levels, so this damage is reduced to about 3%; I can simply remove gear to be closer to my friend’s difficulty if I choose). My level 30 version of my friend’s ability can hit enemies for about 10% of their HP, but with all of my gear on, I can do up to 15% HP (or I can remove gear to nerf my damage closer to what my friend does).
Even though my friend and I are dealing and receiving similar percentages of damage, we see vastly different numbers to represent that same experience. He might see that he’s doing 5 damage per swing at an enemy with 100 HP, but I see my version of that same swing doing 500 damage at an enemy with 10,000 HP.
So all members of a Party Sync group will have their own numbers and their own specific talent range allowed, but the percentages are scaled to be similar, and then better gear can help but only up to a level-appropriate maximum (so higher gear is also scaled down to the maximum compatible gear that a player at that level could possibly find and equip). The gear scaling ensures it can be an easy “one click” feature to play with lower level friends and have a similar challenge to starting a new character with them OR getting a small advantage with your gear (but still not overpowering amounts of stats).
This feature has made helping new players SO much more fun. If a player is having trouble finding help for a quest chain that ends in a dungeon because they’ve had leavers or toxic group members, I can party up with them and que as tank, so that I can lead them through the challenge without trivializing it and keep the peace if there are any meanies in the pug group.
I don't think the problem lies in levels; mmos will try anything to "help new players play with friends", except make the start of the game good enough for the veteran to WANT to replay with friends. Suddenly veterans remember how long "just 100 hours" actually is.
If the content is there early, doesn't disrespect your time, and it's good, then people will be far more open, and able to going back through it with friends.
Destiny 2 does the whole "jump in with a new player" thing amazingly well. Currently, all meaningful content can be played and understood by someone with only 20 minutes of playtime. I really hope that more MMOs take that approach
Man if only i can wipe my memory and do the raids and dungeons for the first time again
I have a mixed memory of Destiny 2. Every thesis about D2 can be flipped over it's head. There are no goals you as a player really need to strife for. There is always a grind for a new weapon, but for the most part you can use whatever random stuff you can get and still remain relevant. There is always some activity, but you are not obliged to participate. You are no less of a player if you only interested in (for the sake of argument) Gambit or PVP. It's a great game to enjoy for a month, the one you can drop at any time. A weird experience for someone more accustomed to classic MMORPG flow.
RIFT was great for this when it was still owned by Trion. You could party with someone the moment after they left the tutorial, scale your level down to match theirs, and ride with them through the entire game.
I know they know FFXIV exists. That has voluntary level scaling for dungeons, the dungeons are still relevant at any level, and there's tons of other stuff to do besides content. I don't get this.
This was something that I really enjoyed about the MMORPG City of Heroes. Obviously it was a superhero game, and it had a "Sidekick" system and an (I think it was called) "Exemplar" system in it.
If you had a higher level character and you wanted to quest with a new player, you could team with them and temporarily "Sidekick" them up to your level....or...they could temporarily "Exemplar" you down to their level.
It was a beautiful idea.
i like the level scaling of star trek online (if it hasn't changed in the last couple years). you can play the missions on different difficulties and if you're with someone you can either scale up to the high player or scale down to the low player. which makes sense, especially in space. you're flying a much stronger ship than the lower lvl guy, why wouldn't it be stronger? but you can scale down, it's a challenge for both but the high lvl player still gets to keep all the abilities that the higher lvl equipment brings (in form of slots/officers) that the lower lvl player didn't get yet
Possibly just add a "Teacher" System that players can volunteer for some cosmetic/achievement/ ilvl rewards where the "Teacher" scales themselves down, helps with quests/dungeons/raids/professions, and both players are rewarded in different ways. The "Teacher" gets their rewards, while the "Student" gets understanding and possibly another type of cosmetc, etc. As I've noticed in most, if not all, mmos I've played fashion is the real end-game for most players
I feel like Josh did not explain GW2 level scaling properly, and the whole discussion is revolving around level where there are many more things in RPGs that you can adjust and are still applicable to the argument. Things like skills, traits, split level loot and gear.
I love how GW2 does its level scaling and I think that many games can learn a lot from it. The way its level scaling works is this: A level 80 goes back to the starting zone that has levels 1-15. The effective level of the character is reduced to the area that they are in +1 to 3 (if mobs are level 6, you might be 9, or if they are 15, you might be 16). They still have the level advantage over the mobs without being a crazy level 80 vs lvl 20. The player still gets the level/power reward for farming that Callum is talking about, and they can still make combat less of a brain-dead delete the whole pack with one attack like Josh is saying (though it ends up being that way anyway if you go back to the starter zone as a level 80 because of skills, traits, and gear).
Moving on to skills, if a character is over level 30, they unlock their Elite skill slot, but still have yet to unlock all elite skills. Up to 30 they are unlocking their weapon and utility skill slots (and again have yet to unlock them all). Beyond that you are still unlocking trait lines and traits up to level 80. Thus as you increase in level, you still get more and more powerful, but are able to carry some of that increased power backwards to lower level maps if you so wish as Callum wanted.
Moving on to rewards, if a Level 80 character goes back to the starting zone and they open a chest, they will still get level 80 rewards, but they will also get the starting zone level rewards mixed in. A chest may have some low level gear (which is still desirable at a high level but that's a whole different discussion) along with a piece of level 80 gear. Thus a player will still get desirable rewards despite being in a low level zone.
Moving on to gear, at a low level, players will be equipping Common, Uncommon, or Rare gear at most. At high level, players will have Legendary/Ascended at best, and Exotic (above Rare) at worst. That gear will also scale down to give better stats overall and increase the power a character is able to output.
These mechanics work for all levels, so people of any level can scale down to the level they choose, it is not just max level.
TLDR: Level scaling does not mean that levelling is meaningless as Callum suggests if done like GW2. As other things such as skills and high rarity gear are unlocked, the overall power of characters when scaled back is still increased significantly. As well, it also provides a better gameplay experience as you don't "brain-dead right click to remove mob" and makes combat more meaningful. Bandits in the starter zone are less powerful than the ones in high level zones, but not to the point of complete disregard.
I've thought about this quite a bit. I think the problem is that character power growth is exponential. A single level doesn't give you just one thing: it gives you +damage (more damage), +chance to hit (more damage), +chance to crit (more damage), better spells (more damage), +hps (more defense), +armor (more defense), +resist (more defense), ....
If you want players to be useful faster, you need to flatten this power curve. Back in the day I played a MUD where characters could be useful in the end game after about 8 hours - around level 24-25 (out of a total of 30 levels). They were maybe 1/2 or 1/3 as powerful as an actual end game character. But in a modern MMO, 8 hours gets you nowhere - you're basically 0% as effective as the end game player.
I remember a manga I read addressed this problem pretty well, it was a teacher system where the higher level character can level themselves down to the level of the student character
Mr Uptom is not wrong as it might seem on first look. He is just looking at the topic from different perspective, that being a game developer's perspective. While players might ultimately disregard a little bit of game balance for having more fun, game developers look more on the numbers. How much effort you put in and how much reward you get. They actually need to care if some tryhards can abuse some game mechanic to obtain unfair advantage over others. If I remember correctly Anthem or Destiny or whichever game it was... had a problem with level scaling where Lvl 1 gear had best scaling so there were bunch of people running with Lvl 1 gear since it was ultimately stronger than any Lvl 2+ gear in game. So there need to be cautious whenever implementing any kind of scaling in game. And while you or me might not care. It is always good to realise that game developers actually care, even if I personally think that their worries are in the grand scheme of things worthless.
Josh did you ever play City of Heroes. That game had two way scaling. A lower level player could scale upwards and be a sidekick to a higher level player. I forget the exact in-game terminology. Or a higher level person could scale down to a lower level and be a mentor. Two directional scaling was awesome. It gave friends the opportunity to play in whichever content they preferred.
Wildstar had a system that I think Josh would have liked. It was basically a 'mentor' setting that would scale your level back to match your friend so you could run around together without you carrying them. You could un-link your levels at any time so you could steamroll stuff if you got cornered though, lol. It also gave you some xp while you were linked even though under normal circumstances you wouldn't have gotten any playing in that area.
God I miss Wildstar.
FYI, WoW has quest Syncing now. You, as a higher level player, can join a lower level friends group, activate quest sync and it will lower you to their level. It also allows you to pick up the same quests they're doing, even if you completed them already. As a reward instead of the lower level gear that your friend is getting you get satchels that can have gear of your level, money, mats, etc....
16:05 I've seen that work in xianxia stories. It is basically a genre of kungfu wizards to happen to work on something that basically a DnD leveling system. You grind XP by meditating and such and absorbing power/xp crystals. But most of the story time is spent murder hoboing around to steal cool gear, learn new power moves, and beating arrogant son of an aristocrat that is the first event in the aristocrat revenge quest chain in that area. Daddy aristocrat has the best loot, of course.
The way they make leveling work in that genre is that picking on low level characters just isn't worth your time. Higher power levels means you need exponenitially more xp to get to the next level. And the xp crystals you steal from level 1 shop keeps isn't worth it. And since leveling higher means your life is longer, there is a strong incentive to always be leveling.
So instead, you want to mug level 20 shop keeps, who are weak for their level bracket, but they are the crafting mains in the MMO so they have good money and gear.
A long time ago, when i played Dungeon Siege Legends of Aranna, you could get a staff called Staff of Stars, guite powerful and it had no level requirement, so gave one to my brother, at beginning.
I think the best version of this was in TWEWY (not an MMO but could work), where lowering your level voluntarily gave you increased drop rates of items, so choosing to decrease your level still rewarded you more, but allowed you to choose a level of challenge you were comfortable with.
Kenshi, while not an MMO, has a very good system that would encourage reducing your own power. Your XP gains go down the higher level you are compared to opponent, but if you intentionally give yourself de-buffs and make yourself lower level than your opponent, you get more XP. One of the strategies is to become as bad at something as possible and go get beat-up in "safe" fights to grind that combat XP. It could be hard to balance in the MMO but it's fun when trying to find that balance between sweet XP gains and the chance you would die and lose everything
I strongly dislike making new characters to play with people. I would much rather downscale my max level character, even if there are no rewards. Rewards are nice, but if I make a new character it's more annoying. I don't care about that character. I'm just doing it to play w/ a friend. I'm not attached to it, it doesn't have cosmetics I've worked for (or these days swiped for), and the new character's rewards and progression don't matter to me, so why not just let me downscale my main? I agree it should be a choice, but it's a choice I'd take every time.
New alts are a great way for a 1:1 experience though for purely playing with your friend. But most people are too attached to their main characters.
My MMO experience is pretty limited, but the Warlords of Draenor ilevel scaling mechanic for challenge modes that scaled equipment down to the level of rare (blue) equipment that was farmable in the daily quest area was wonderful. Anyone could get into the dungeons, but you weren't able to totally outgear them. Farming for ideal stats and special trinkets still made a large impact though, so there was power progression to be had. The current level scaling for questing and especially dungeons in WoW is so imbalanced that it's hard to feel good when a level 19 is doing double your level 50 character damage in a random dungeon.
Timewalking is very much impacted by the power you've accumulated over the years and are tuned to be very easy despite that.
Agreed we need a mmo that you can hop into with other friends without having to spend tens if not hundreds of hours leveling first
I remember in GW1 you could use +3 runes in armour that also lowered your hp by 75 so you could "lower" your hp level and remove skill points to play with friends with new characters. Lowering Hp was even used in a Monk farm build called 55hp monk xD. You could even use low armour that was cheap to simulate low level characters. Another Monk farm build used starting armour with 600 hp to Thorns melee enemies down.
GW1 was a weird but wondeful game. And Monks were a thing...
This is actually one advantage to gear dependent games. When I was playing WoW and wanted to play with a lower level friend I would just take off gear until our primary stats were about the same. Once I reached max level though I had to either run around naked or equip lower level gear. SWTOR is even better at it because much of the high level gear gets it’s stats from mods. So if you wanted to level down then you just take out the mods. But now they do the Level-Downscaling that Josh talked about so you don’t even need to do that.
My approach so far in my game is that levels don't make you stronger per se. They just allowed you to access more skills and abilities.
Gear is for making you stronger.
If a level 1 needs 3 autoattacks with an iron sword to kill a goblin, a lvl 100 still needs 3 autoattacks with an iron sword but they probably won't be autoattacking and they won't be using an iron sword.
I'm just gonna drop it here, party sync in WoW is great, I've been doing it with a friend to level up toons like L10 and L40 and it works great, also gets you on the same page quest progress wise.
LOTRO has an item that stops you from gaining exp while equipped, which i notice a lot of player use for specific characters/classes (since roleplaying is more prevalent there). FFXIV/Guild wars 2 had level scaling for a lot of the general content until you hit specific instances like Eureka/Bojza and any GW2 map in general, where levels are treated differently (and on purpose). I've come to appreciate such systems when trying different games (especially mmos) with friends, which can be rough to line up nowadays with everyone's general life and interests.
Guild Wars 2 floods max level players with Tomes of knowledge which give a free level on an alt, which can be a double edged sword. Allowing an end game player to make an alt to level up to the point their friend is at currently. Or more likely just boost all the way to max level. Considering they already have level scaling in open world, and the solo MSQ that gives you like 50% of the xp levelling journey if you chose to do it, lots of free xp boosters, mastery system encouraging map completion and a relatively difficulty free experience in vanilla zones, there's not a whole lot of motivation to playing together before level cap.