Vinland Saga is WRONG about Christianity - Nietzsche Slave Morality
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
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Dawg please read D.Gray-Man. Its right up your alley
I think the slave arc in Vinland Saga was probably an allegorical depiction of "slavery to sin". We see Thorfinn being a slave at a farn in S2 where he is shown battling his past sins (killing people in wars) psychologically. He sayes he will "Reborn" Which sounds very close to "Born again" concept in Christianity which is to dying with christ and resurrecting as a redeemed person who is free from the slavery of sin.
Great point
this is truth not merely a concept. I've experienced in myself.
Weirdly, I feel like Thorfinn ends up being a good personification of meekness when he takes all those punches. he takes his stance and succeeds in giving Canut a change of heart because of it.
Yes ironically the characters become more Christian as they stop talking about Christianity haha
@@DrUpauli I think the essence of Christianity is meant to be lived out and not overtly declared. In this way, it's not ironic at all that the meaning of Christianity touched Thorfinn deeply in a way that he lived out without verbalizing it .
As a Christian, the anime really comes around in season 2. It puts all of the mockery of Christian values into view and shows us how Vikings add to this cycle of violence. While Vinland saga doesn’t explicitly say the values of Christianity are better for society, ideas of forgiveness, peace, and controlling your emotions are put to the forefront
There is no "values of Christianity" there is only human values. Some are better than others and it seems primarily, forgiveness, peace, and controlling your emotions are some of the beneficial ones so therefore they made into some of the surviving religions today.
Cultural values are like genetics, often called memes instead of genes. Some memes are passed on while others are abandoned such as the meme of being a great warrior and killing for the sake of Valhalla. These memes weren't sustainable for human well-being so overtime they faded out. Christianity has prevailed not because it had something special but because it emphasised values that tend to be selected for within culture. Forgiveness, peace, and controlling your emotions are in no way at all exclusive to Christianity. They exist within Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, Hinduism, etc.
I don't hate Chritianity I think it has some great things to teach and also a lot of things that are harmful, which is to be expected from a religion made when people had little to no understanding how human psychology and science. Every religion has flaws because they are ancient. We just gotta make sure we're not attaching normal human behaviour and values to a single supernatural religion.
@@SharedPhilosophy there is no “normal human behavior” the behavior you speak of was specifically formed by Christianity and its values, so yes there are Christian values. God instilled these values in us and it’s important we follow
@@SharedPhilosophy Did you steal the "Memes" for genes from murdoch murdoch?
It is supposed to take place after Leif Erikson's voyage, therefore in a time when beying a pagan in Viking society was kind of frowned upon, but the Viking society is almost entirely pagan in the show (as far as I saw it)
Of course it will be anti-Christian
Just like almost every today's portrayal of Vikings in England is some sort of metafor for post-2014 Arabic immigrants in Europe
Thanks for the shout out bug dog! Glad the merch came out great
No problem 👍
Ironically, the Vikings eventually converted to Christianity.
7:52 Nietzsche wasn't saying everyone should become a multi-millionare. He was saying that Christianity is a perfect religion for the poor to have because it assures them that their lack of money is a virtue and that they can be happy because they're really showing their commitment to god by not caring or working towards some wealth. The parable of the talents is talking about going out and using the gift's god has given you in order to further the kingdom of god. That's why all the money eventually goes back to the owner at the end because that's supposed to be god getting back his follower who is coming back to him with more people that he brought to the kingdom.
And this mentality of not caring about wealth makes sense. The people who created this religion were in a situation where becoming extremely wealthy was hard and often near impossible.
So what do they do? Turn a lack of money and interest in making more money into virtue in order to make themselves happy with the current situation they were in.
And what does Nietzsche offer? Why does he feel his belief is so much better?
I never actually said Nietzsche wants us all to be millionaires. I just said he wants us all to assert our will, which is his will to power. In order for you to fully express that which you are to yourself and the world, you tend to need money, so I just used that as an example. It's the main way it can be conceptualized being manifest.
Also, it's absolutely true that Nietzsche believed that being a slave was bad. He condemns its triumph in the west. In beyond good and evil he calls it "the collective degradation of man". But that's even irrelevant because my point was that the religion isn't only for the poor. It's also for those who desire power. I don't say nietzches actual points are wrong, I just say they are incorrectly attributed to be necessarily christian
Great breakdown of the anime under a well informed Christian lense, praise be to the Lord Jesus Christ ✝️ 🙏🏾
Thank you! Praise God!
15:11 4 of those criteria are completely subjective.
What is a just cause? To many ancient Christians it could've been to spread the word of god. Justice is extremely subjective especially when viewed in this religious framework full of superstitious beliefs
What is the right intention? Again the right intention could be described as spreading the word of god. Helping the nations with differing religions to be saved from their "evil" practices. Very subjective
What is the legitimate authority? The god that the Christians believe in? The pope? The bible? Again, very subjective.
The outcome of the war would be superior than if it didn't happen? What if the outcome of a war would be that an entire nation would be conquered and turned Christian therefore saving them in the subjective theology of Christianity, but in the process thousands of people who didn't want to convert to Christianty would be killed? Extremely Subjective.
Making desions on whether to go to war or not based on such subjective criteria is extremely dangerous because it doesn't value the other people involved in the war. Obviously if a war is self defense, then it's objectively okay to fight because you're not imposing your beileifs on the people trying to attack you. But if you're gonna go out and start war with other nations based on subjective criteria that is extremely dangerous.
My goal wasn't to give a comprehensive description of when you should and shouldn't go to war. My goal was to say that the pacifist approach doesn't need to be adopted and here's a general guideline someone made
Christianity needed Arthurian mythos derived from pagan heroism in order for it to be able to lift itself off from its meekness.
A great example of the pagan mythos can be found in Beowulf
“God helps those that help themselves,” a quote not actually in the Bible, I think all this demonstrates is you can use doctrine to demonstrate anything you really want. Jesus preaches to forget your worldly belongings abandon them and your family for the end is arriving soon. Turns out that didn’t happen.
Nietzsche certainly understood the portrayal as Jesus being God, he was far more interested that slaves seemed to fancy Christianity, as it rewarded the most poor, and the most downtrodden as they are closer to God. It rewards the weak for being weak, a slave would love that and take the idea that in their suffering they are godly in some way. Where nietzsche valued the individual, and the powerful individual at that.
Another great video. I have a recommendation. You should do a video on Naruto and linking it to theodicy. Pretty much the idea of suffering and the reason for it how suffering can build up character and the purpose of suffering for gods ultimate plan for good.
I've done a Naruto video in the past if you're interested. It was on the cycle of hatred and how that relates to forgiveness
@@DrUpauli oh wow I’ll check it out. I think Naruto has a good explanation on the idea of why does god allow suffering. Obito wanted to create a world without suffering but Naruto shows that his suffering was necessary for him to be the powerful leader he becomes.
@@windmill63 maybe that's a video topic I can explore more someday. Sounds good
though a fan of nitro would critique his view of Christianity this being the famous historian Oswald Spengler. He just goes over a brief history of the Christian Europe and briefly explains what slave morality definitely doesn't come from the historical record.
Ok now real comment. If you made a follow up video id also like to see a discussion about how i think Leaf and later some of the other characters see Christianity. Its still very prominent in second season from what i understand but it isnt out on amazon for free yet or else id watch it. Also a discussion on how even the monk that travels with the pronce seemingly is in doubt of God a lot of the time and constabtly drunk. Not to mention he himself doesnt seem to fully grasp the gosple even though hes suppose to be a leader and a teacher in that area so youd hope he was trained and read it but it seems like hes still a baby christian himself at best.
A follow up video on some stuff in S2 is already finished, but yea those are all good points that I probably should've explored in this video
You should've watch the second season before making this video. Cnut is definitely not represented as the christian Ideal.
Amen 🙏🏾 praise be to the Lord Jesus Christ ✝️
Juice the algo
Idk, sounds like you are angry for no reason.
Master Morality doesn't mean being at the top of society. Master morality is deeply connected to the concept of the Übermensch. While an Übermensch can find their purpose within societial hireachies they are more likely to attempt living within society but be as independent as possible. we all exist within society but the Übermensch doesn't gain power for powers sake but if anything to do something with it. In fact they are more likely to be an artist, writer, scientist etc. someone who does what they love and what gives them purpose. your characterisation of master morality is blantantly wrong here
I think the idea of Jesus being able to walk from the cross but choosing not to is an interesting idea from the perspective of a christian, but it's less that Nietzsche didn't consider it but just that he didn't believe it. He was most certaintly an atheist, so that's why to him it's not that Jesus didn't step off the cross because it's the right thing and he came down to earth to save humanity yadayada but much more that he didn't step off the cross because he just couldn't step off the damn cross. you must always keep the authors worldview in mind to understand what they mean. that's why I said that Jesus choosing to not step off the cross is an interesting idea, despite being an atheist myself, because your christian and I thus understand what you were trying to communicate
once again to Nietzsche it's not about gaining money or power but to carve out your own path and do what makes you happy. the exampels assume that the person in question wants to gain money or womans attention but aren't able to. you are talking about a completly different scenario with different motivating factors. besides the desire to becoming rich or getting girls can be motivated by and honest wish to get it, in which case pursueing it is master morality but it could also just be due to fragile egos, or in a modern society even due to society telling achieving material success is where true happiness lies, and following what society tells you you want rather than what you actually want is slave morality in itself.
"we don't live for this world we live for another world" is a very cute mindset, but it is also one that rejects life, and as such tells of weakness. I know that to you that isn't the case but to the millionaire who lives a materialistic, shallow and indulgent life he isn't doing anything wrong either. the nietzschean philosophy is one that affirms life with all it's flaws rather than attempt to escape into a perfect eternal world
and if we assume what you said about Jesus was true, for which we have to assume christianity is correct but let's go with it, then Jesus would be displaying master morality here. Nietzsche isn't talking about Christ but about christians though. it's a diagnoses for the collective mindset of millions in the 21st century even billions of people. you can be christian and still find true happiness and pursue your own dreams that was never a debate, this isn't about one person
In "on genealogy of morals", Nietzsche says the masters are the ones who create morals and value things like strength and the ability to assert your will, and the slaves, as a response, create a sort of counter morality out of resentment. I suppose that doesn't explicitly say that the masters are at the top and are wealthy, but considering there is resentment on the slaves end, implies that they don't have the power. And wealth is often associated with power ig. According to a quick Google search at least. This video was made years ago, I'm just uploading it now and I've been away from his work for a while.
The statement "we don't live for this world we live for another world" may ostensibly be life denying when taken in a vacuum, taking the Christian morality as a whole paints the opposite picture. A look at world history will show how Christians, from a literal perspective, reproduce more than atheist, and are champions of human rights around the world. If the world is marked with God's signature and a part of His design, it is our job to take care of it. Read "Dominion" by Tom Holland (not the Spiderman actor lol. Anyways, he's an atheist and analyzes the impact Christianity has had on the world.)
Also yes I say quite explicitly that what he's saying about Jesus aligns with master morality and in my book I explicitly say that this critique only really works with Christians themselves, not Christianity. Thus, his message if anything should be to tell Christians to be more like Christ.
@@DrUpauli makes sense to me thx
@@DrUpauli I guess my point about master morality was that an Übermensch doesn't seek power or money because that's pointless and it's also pursuing things within our current moral value system rather than creating your own. So by trying to gain money your actually serving our capitalist society which isn't very masterful. If anything it's a slave gaining power but still being a slave at the core. the most common form ofd an Übermensch wouldn probably be an artist since they can be fully independent and gain their purpose from themselves alone. I think Niietzsche also saw Napoleon as a master since he wanted the conquer shit and put in the effort to get that. remember Nietzsche doesn't exactely care about morality
I don't know much on the matter, but I have seen interpretations that Nietzsche didn't think that master morality is all that great either, just a better thing to be on individual level. Übermenchen would have a new sort of morality that would be better than either.
@@Kissamiess I do think it's mainly meant on an individual level. It was supposed to be the solution to nihilism which he thought would be and kinda is a societal problem, but Nietzsches philosophy is mainly useful to give you direction and purpose in life, not a step-by-step-guide on how to restructure society
No set of words I associate with the Christian god. Maybe anger and vengeance.
Here we see a man who can't tell the Old and New Testament apart. Possibly illiteracy is to blame.
@@walkercox5495 I mean there’s a stark difference you’re right. The Old Testament is bad ass. New Testament is weak sauce
@@walkercox5495 don't most christians believe the bible is past down from god? doesn't make much sense to disgard the entire old testament.
@@revengance4149both old and New Testament has the same God. Jesus is God in the flesh, Yahweh incarnate
@@ivancastro365the New Testament isn’t “weak sauce”, it’s God’s promise to restore all things brought true through the Cross
In Jesus Christ. You do not know strength, which is why you strive to pass yourself as strong. If you knew strength you wouldn’t need to try and prove it to others, Jesus is God in the flesh and yet He died for those who hated Him to display what true strength looks like
If you do not understand the message of the Cross, it’s because you’ve obsessed over covering insecurities instead of seeking truth
Good video but the title is wrong imo Vinland saga doesn't have just one opinion on Christianity. It shows strong as well as weak Christian/pagan characters. Heck there's lots of Christian virtue on display in season 2. Also if you want to talk about your book please don't slap it in the middle of the video next time. It felt very out of place listening to reviews.
There are better examples of leadership later in S2, but they aren't explicitly Christian unlike the bad leadership demonstrated in S1 that was explicitly Christian
@@DrUpauliI see your point now. Maybe it was the way you said it in the video. Because I see Vinland saga taking Christianity as a positive light with thorfinn adopting some of those ideals (who btw was a Christian irl as well. Not a raider but as an explorer)
The Vikings in the show mock Christianity (because pagan) but the show itself I think holds it in a higher regard. Just not as noticable as Canute's abandonment of the faith. For instance after thorfinn was in a state of depression he listens intently to snake reading the Bible when making his own opinions on things.
18:00
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
(((((( 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” )))))))
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
So either Jesus came for just Israel, in which case a separate narrative was crafted later on in order to promote the spread of the religion past Israel or Jesus lied here.
21Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
((((((24He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”))))))
25The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
(((((((27“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”)))))))
(((28Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.)))
Matthew 15: v21-28 NIV
When you watch Vinland Saga Season 1 but not Season 2 😒
I have watched it. I just didn't cover it in this video