Jay Dyer RUNS From This Argument AGAINST Two Natures (Agen vs Eastern 'Orthodox' Apologist)
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 25 дек 2024
- Join our Discord! / discord
In this discussion, Agen, representing the Oriental Orthodox side, presents an argument against Jay Dyer @JayDyer (after many requests to debate Dyer) to which Jay evades the confrontation.
#orthodoxy #orientalorthodox #easternorthodox #christology #debate
Dyer’s epistemological paradigm relies on EO presuppositional by seeing that EO has the “least” problems or at least no ontologically damaging problems. OO has the exact same hierarchical and ecclesiastical system as EO and with the same non-ontological flaws, except we provide an ontological flaw/critique of EO that’s not present in our system. To Dyer, this is a flaw in his system which he can’t give a proper account to. That’s why he studies RC, Protestantism, Islam, JW, and all sorts of other minor cults including even Black Hebrew Israelites, but refuses to engage OO. OO is a flaw in his presuppositional system and that makes him rage which is why he refuses to have it play a role in his apologetics. That’s why any time we try to engage with him, he tries shutting us down immediately and then invents a new excuse for why he refuses to engage with us.
For the past years it was “Erhan got it”, and now it’s “they’re not flexible enough, they’re too mean, they’re too concerned with words, they focus too much on metaphysics, they can’t debate, they don’t know enough” etc. All excuses to brush us aside as opposed to engaging.
they still haven't gave a response to those OO sessions Subdeacon Daniel Kakish and the Lion's Den did with Shamoun right? it's been like 9 months now and i haven't heard a thing
Well said
Thank you for articulating it clearly. I have never seen jay so flustered like he was last night. He acuses us of being arrogant but doesn't see the arrogance in himself, the double standard in that man has gone off the chart. Last night he mentioned the 2 letters to succsenses and in that letter cyril refutes David erhan and Kai in how they critiqued us in there refutation. St cyril says christ is composite from two and in that composition there is no mixture...word for word what David erhan and Kai presume to be false 😂😂😂. He even says there is distinctness in that one enfleshed nature of the word emphasis on THE ONE ENFLESHED NATURE, that one enfleshed nature being compounded from two into one while maintaining there own distinctness. Where is st cyril being contrary to us in this 2 letters he is even more miaphysite😂😂😂.
Oriental christology just breaks e.o christology to pieces no matter how much they try to refute us it will eventually lead to them refuting the church fathers like st cyril and st basil basically making them protestants😂cherry picking quotes that align with there weak christology😂
The Thing is people like him knows only the Oriental Orthodox position shakes his Faith.
He found it easy to refute Catholicism,Protestanism,Islam etc..
But The Oriental Orthodox, i am sure it surprised him, when he understood about it first, after he actaully thought Eastern "Orthodox" was the true Church.
So he has to pretend that the OO Position is not Challenge to his Paradigm.
Because he knows that Chalcedon is not easy to defend, and Miaphysitism existed before Chalcedon and it is in the Saints which they honor in lips only.
And all the good things he thinks we lack, or the bad things he thinks we have, has been said by his opponents to him, yet he responds to them it is bad excuse to engage in debate.
He also said that his opponents are saying these things because they are afraid of him.
Well...
Oriental Orthodoxy for the win
EO vs OO: having 10-hour long debates over exactly how to use certain Greek words
Protestant vs Catholic: "you worship Mary" "you have smoke machine church"
the monophysites hide behind their word pasta to avoid being pinned by us. Theres alot of hidden information that they're hiding so its hard to pin them down.
😂😂😂😂
Frrrr
@@redeemedzoomer6053 😂sadly our debate is not "just what words to use" but it's about a completely different metaphysics. I used to be in your shoes before I understood the topic so give it time our difference will eventually come to you🙏.
Great strawman. Noone has brought more people to Christ than the protestants. Got something to say about that or you just want to mock your brothers in Christ?
I converted to OO and got babtised in the Coptic church.
In the church of Resurrection in Jerusalem, the Coptic orthodox church has a small altar just 2 metres away from the stone on which our Lord's head was resting after the crucifixion. No other church has an altar so close to His head.
Just saying...
Blessings my Orthodox brothers, I'm Coptic Orthodox too from Mexico ⛪🙏🏻
@CoptoOrtodoxo Blessings to you, brother and your beautiful church which I saw in one of the videos on your channel.
@@starozytnawiarasw.onufrego8727 .Ya , This is my Coptic Orthodox church in Mexico, we have a monk Coptic like Priest .
Dude, my first time watching your videos and credit to you man. You are extremely intelligent and knowledgeable, definitely earned a new subscriber.
crazy amounts of panic great job
He knew he lost when he said "I'm not gonna listen to YOU tell me what Maximus said" and kicked you off because you were about to recite what Maximus said and embarass him
Other guy just didnt understand and jay dyer kept reffering to the mode and other guy just didnt listen
You don’t even know what you’re talking about. Enhypostasis literally means IN the hypostasis. BUT EVEN IF Jay was right, the conclusion would be the same, he’d be affirming an ad intra composition.
@@kidus_1010 No he wouldn't
@@TomHawks-k8lYES HE WOULD DO YOU KNOW WHAT MODE EVEN MEANS
@@TomHawks-k8l
"..in His pre-eternal hypostasis [ὑποστάσει] He established for Himself flesh from the holy virgin. ..so that the hypostasis, being previously simple, might serve as the hypostasis of the flesh and become the composite hypostasis of the Word of God [ὥστε αὐτὴν χρηματίσαι τῇ σαρκὶ ὑπόστασιν τὴν τοῦ θεοῦ λόγου ὑπόστασιν καὶ σύνθετον γενέσθαι]"
John of Damascus, The Fount of Knowledge III, Expositio Fidei, Book III, Caput VII (CPG-8043)
its funny seeing all the dyerites seethe at this interaction must have been a huge ego blow to there cult following
Jay Dyer how to “destroy” Oriental Orthodox playbook in 3 easy steps!
1.Everything means mode, when it doubt, it probably means mode
2.spend majority of time debating about the debate instead of doing the actual debate (I know more Maximus than you, I know more about this letter than you)
3. Do NOT let the debate reach more than 5 minutes and call opponents Muslims
Repeat
😂
Jay is only interested in attacking other ancient Churches. Nobody who was truly in Christ would be so dead set on creating more division and snarl at any prospect of a union. He is not a Christian. Glad to see he is getting exposed.
The issue isn’t just him attacking other churches, the issue is that he’s being disingenuous while doing it. He has no clue what OO believes (or even ACoE at that) yet he argues as if he does.
@@kidus_1010
I can tell that he loves to generalize, I am ashamed he hasn't invested more into the Coptic and Assyrian belief systems, him and his followers usually calling it Nestorian.. There's more to their belief than that.
Ecumenism is a heresy.
I've watched far too many hours of Jay and I've never heard him speak in faith. Never a simple God bless you to a brother or sister, never a sentimental word on God. I do appreciate him, and I can't say what's in his heart, but he doesn't seem super open to the fullness of the faith.
keep up the good work
Jay is the definition of "just debate me bruh"😂all he wants is just debating doesn't care about having conversations. Always belittling, always discrediting every oppenent he has with little cheap shots before debating them. Everyone is so dumb in his eyes its unbearable to live in this world😂😂😂
Exactly bro, it's been the same show for years. He is making EO look bad by association with his lack of humility, this is coming from someone who's been looking into EO. Jay Dyer also said after the debate here, he said that Oriental Orthodox are all emotional and weak, which is funny to hear from the guy who just hung up on a guy trying to have a simple Christological debate..
He's a clown, like Shamoun. As if they gather knowledge just for followers, look at Sam's streams. They always curse people's mothers and call their mothers prostitutes just because they question them, I remember someone asked Sam a simple question and he 'sperged out hard, called their mother a "shia whore"... Clowns, clowns, clowns.
@@willyb7353 I wouldn't recommend taking lessons on Praxis from any internet personality
@@alexcarson2065
Good advice.
I saw this on Jays stream earlier. (Algorithm, pls promote this video)
Typical dyer just arguing because he just wants to argue, very hard to listen to him, guy needs an ego check lol.
Jay should humble himself and state his lack of understanding on Christology because that’s what he was saying through his actions
If you’re actually serious about your “mission”, why don’t you make a review video about jay dyers video about oriental orthodox and go through it point by point and refute what they are saying?
He WILL this week. It’s coming out soon. I expect you to be there live and watch. Also there’s already been multiple hours long streams refuting every single thing about Chalcedonianism
@@kidus_1010 where can I find these streams? Are they on his channel or somewhere else?
@@kidus_1010 and btw, who the f**k are you, the white knight for this guy and his channel??
God willing we will! We're sitting at 40+ slides right now as of this moment.
@@DAILYDRIVER556 why are you using obscene language?
The gates of hades will never prevail against the church of Sts. Cyril, Dioscorus, and Severus ❤
How EO light only the holy fire in Jerusalem others try failed
is that your argument 😭
Actually Jesus said that to St. Peter not St. Mark 😬
@@maznn wow you just solved the great schism dude
@@Dzubran No im just saying this OO schismatic is just as bad as the EO schismatics
I feel as if Jay Dyer knows he's not well equipped enough to debate OO, hence why he'll make videos critiquing it but they always seem to feature someone who believes they actually know a little something about the miaphysite stance, he's never actually got an OO on for a formal debate, it seems he'll just blindly defend EO no matter what
The fact the answer dont matter and it still entails the person of the word becomes composite and changed ad intra is crazy
Lord Have Mercy on us and save our souls. I long for the day when there is complete unity in Christ’s believers because he returns and sets us right. In the mean time I’ll do the best with what I have and what I know. May he have mercy on us if we’re mistaken.
Jay Dyer is full of himself tremendously..
As an EO, its hard to watch him, frustrating too be honest, I have seen many more catholics, protestants that in my subjective point of view might have the holy spirit, but dyer just seems to developed this spiteful personality over the years.
@@brokenrecord9734 so true. I got into dyer videos because of his insight about athiesim and orthodoxy. His older videos seem to be more chill, fun and open to criticism. But over the years he is turning into a very spiteful individual. Very dismissive before the person even has a chance to present there case.
As an OO, I am sure we are guilty too of being spiteful. I wish we can unite so all this unnecessary drama can stop. Pray for me my fellow brother.
“Well you won’t debate David erhan” - 👹👹👹
Jay is just a mad boy, he is always mad, and his followers are as mad as him.
He can’t have kids so that’s probably it.
@@RafaelGarcia-jb3methat was inappropriate and irrelevant.
@@meina0614 it’s true unfortunately. That’s why he is bitter.
@@RafaelGarcia-jb3me no im pretty sure his behavior here is due to him being out of his depth and the fact that his “orthodoxy” is central to his identity not due to his own personal circumstances. Please modify your behavior as this reflects badly on his critics
Thank you for debating jay dyer I commented on a previous video that had agen in it asking this. Jay dyer had no responses.
You annihilated him lmao absolutely cornered him.
classical Dyer diversion tactics lol
He was so afraid of the questions that he decided to evade them at all costs.😊
Thank you!
What is the OO position? That making a distinction in the natures of Christ entails a composition and division, right?
According to that standard there's then a division or composition in the Godhead, because of the three hypostasis: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Bro there is real distinction and division between the hypostases of the Godhead have you ever even read the Cappadocians? This is basic Trinitarian theology that everyone believes. Even EOs. The only thing is it doesn’t constitute composition within the Godhead because the hypostases aren’t parts that constitute a whole. And our claim isn’t that making a distinction between Christ’s natures entails a composition. We BELIEVE that Christ’s one nature IS composite.
@@kidus_1010
That makes sense, thanks for the comment here.
@@willyb7353 "division between the hypostases of the Godhead" ="God" consists of parts
That would make me convert to Islam if it was true.
@@KyleMonster-s3k
What is the fascination with simplifying GOD?
So, a simple man can be composed of 3 parts that function together, the mind, body, and soul, but GOD can't have 3 parts?
Sounds to me you're quite drawn towards Islamic theology already! By all means, go join your local mosque if you're that silly.
Please debate David Erhan and Orthodox Shahada!
They are too scared to debate
@@kidus_1010 why you wait the EO to take the holy fire you try to light it failed
@@ΓραικοςΕλληνας
Holy fire?
@@willyb7353lol he's talking about their "miracle" in Jerusalem every year.
You really said run the clip back and it is not in your favor 😂 you can’t “grant” facts of history. Stop pretending you’re more well read than everyone and argue with humility.
The clip literally proves what Agen was saying all along. Don’t be a blind worshipper of Jay
@@kidus_1010 no dude he said they accepted Leonitus of Byzantiums views at the 5th council and Jay said it’s important to distinguish that Leonitus of Jerusalems theology was accepted regardless of if the two shared the same view on on subject. Then Agen doubled down and tried to correct Jay saying, but actually this idea originated in the same monastery but I’ll grant you that. Not knowing Jay had the book Agen got that from in front of him 😂😂 this clip is not a good look for your boy
@@jacobfavret1729 No one said Byzantium's view was accepted, I said the dogma was enhypostatization was Byzantium's and CPLEII doesn't favor either articulation.
@@ApostolicOrthodoxy the misunderstanding happened when Jay said you need to distinguish the view from the canonized theology then you doubled down. You can’t “grant” a fact then you tried to say he hasn’t read Maximus. If you claim he was uncharitable, you were worse. You went on his show bro don’t pretend you’re more well read, just make the argument.
@@jacobfavret1729 Definition of "For the sake of argument" (Arguendo): 'a phrase that means to make a hypothetical statement true for the purpose of an argument, regardless of whether the statement is actually true.'
Neither Leontii's position is definitively canon as Justinian pulled from both, I granted his position on Leontiu's because it was irrelevant to my metaphysical critique
Also if you recall the video I did make an argument regarding INtrinsitc predication (with emphasis on the in) and a resulting change internally to the Divine hypostasis to which his response was contesting "enhypostasis" means 'in the Hypostasis.' My telling him he hasn't read Maximus' definition is true and I don't have to appease the emotions and ego of Dyer. He kicked me off when I went to present the definition.
To be completely honest , as an Eastern Orthodox catechumen, this makes me sad. This is an example of how and why the Orthodox Church did schisms. I learned from this video that semantics can create division ➗ between brothers in the body of Christ. There is to much Ego to fight through in discussions like this because neither side is capable of being corrected or admitting mistakes in thoughts or words. ❤love conquers all. When we bring it back to the simplicity of Christ , all this fails and true Holy Spirit conquers philosophies and divisive discussions. To be real , I love you both , both sides , for having so much zeal to learn and seek and know deeper about The True God and the Name above all names. ❤
I'm Oriental Orthodox and I agree with you. I want us to unite. Please pray for me.
@PantocratorFollower of course I will pray for you what's your name ?
@@AlphaOmegaTruth7 Andrew
@PantocratorFollower Andrew , wow just like the Saint Andrew Orthodox Cross
That will be easy to remember, I do pray on this Holy Nativity day that the Lord Keeps you in his rest and pours out his love , peace and comfort into your heart and soul and guides your thoughts , words and footsteps on your day to day journey. Merry Christmas Andrew !
@@AlphaOmegaTruth7 Thanks for your prayers. I long for our churches to join again. Happy American Christmas 🎄
This is slicks sad. The “best church most correct church” has so many people that just get angry and shut those down who challenge their views. I don’t understand
Jay looking for help against Agen be like:
“Fr. Deacon Ananias do you have anything to add?”
“Fr. Deacon you’re muted. Unmute”
Deacon Ananias: **silence**
😂
Stunned silence... Incredible
How you cant light the divine light in Jerusalem.
@@ΓραικοςΕλληνας
Not sure what you're talking about
@@willyb7353 at Jerusalem the light of the holy fire why you take it from the EO.you try to light it failed ...
6:04 Genetic fallacy.
You don’t even know what that means. Agen wasn’t arguing that Leontius of Jerusalem was wrong because he came from the same place as Leontius of Byzantium. He was saying that they had the same view and Constantinople II didn’t make any explicit preference for one over the other
@@kidus_1010 Pointing out that they were from the same monastery is the genetic fallacy.
*1 Corinthians 1:10-17*
*10* I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought
…
*17* For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel - *not* with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
🙏🏾
Dyer is a coward who isn't even man enough to post the full stream where he got rocked. 😂
What stream was that?
6:32 you clearly said he didnt say " leontius of jerusalem theology is accepted at the fifth council," but at 1:40 he clearly says that... so in your own gotcha video u are caught lying..... also... this whole video is just a quote mine, which is something only monophysites knows how to do.....
Leontius of Jerusalem's theology was not canonized at Constantinople 2. I know he said "leontius of Jerusalem was accepted" I didn't say "dyer didnt say leontius of jerusalem was accepted" I said "leontius of jerusalem was not accepted."
For example if bob says tuna grows on trees, when i correct this and say tuna doesnt grow on trees, i'm not saying "bob didnt say tuna grows on trees". I'm saying "bob is false for saying tuna grows on trees"
@@ApostolicOrthodoxy bro is using semantics 😭🙏(you I mean)
@@halfwaydead3087it’s not semantics read the analogy Agen presented in the response about the Bob and Tuna it’s a fundamental disagreement
@Teddy-ke6xh it wasn't like that in the debate though
By any chance does anyone have any good books concerning the miaphysite position and the opposite. I read over a brief overview of it and honestly both positions sound incredibly similar to me. I could understand an issue if the oriental orthodox had developed the monophysite position (which in my ignorance is what I thought they were) but I dont see a specific issue with the miaphysite position and would like to study it more.
same
im an eastern orthodox inquiring oriental orthodoxy, thank you for these videos they really help. the orientals need to represent the mia position on youtube even more because its unfair how the chalcedoneans overshadow any position of the orientals.
Have you seen the 8 part series defending OO on Sam Shamoun’s channel with the Lion’s Den?
@@kidus_1010 yea Ive watched 3 so far, it was shocking.
@@cela.24k great. Once you finish the series and watch the other streams on this channel and on the Lion’s Den, you’ll definitely have your world turned upside down
Do not stray from the true church and don’t look for answers on the internet
@@nomikoskardoulias4543 The EO Church is wrong.
But you did get them mixed up lmao
did you even watch
@@mario4782 yes that's the only question nobody answered I think? I'm not 100 sure tho I'll have to watch a few times
He didn’t get them mixed up. The hypostasis they taught came from the same monastery so it was appropriate to say either one to refer to the idea. He wasn’t talking about who’s version was canonized at their fifth council. Pay closer attention.
@@kidus_1010 nah he was incorrect and mixed up the two. He can retroactively justify all he wants, and so can you. But Leontius of Byzantium is the answer and he messed up by saying Leontius of Jerusalem. It was a mistake and he could've just admitted that instead of doubling down on nonsense. Read more.
@@notstrong5789ok did the hypostasis of the word changed or what
I will be honest that I do not come across Oriental Orthodox very often. On one occasion I had a fruitful back and forth. But that was almost 2 years ago.
With that being said, I am a Caledonian Catholic. I specialize in Western Theology though I am an avid reader of Maximus the Confessor. I understand that there was a disagreement over the understanding of Cyril of Alexandria that lends itself to the division. I for one believe Maximus handles this with proper Christology.
I have no issue with Letter 15 of Maximus. However, one should know, it’s believed by scholars to be prior to Maximus complete abhorrence of the Monoenergist position and Miaphysitism.
Being that I don’t recall the intricacies of this disagreement, I am open to hear your position before stating my thoughts.
-Irenaeus
Hello!
God forbid anyone ever agrees with Maximus' formulation of the incarnation. If you read Letter 15, you learn
1. there is no peculiarizing distinguishment between the Word and Sarx (only essential distinguishment).
2. St. Severus is accused of Nestorianism for retaining particularity between the Word and Flesh and distinguishing them in reality
3. The Word goes from simple to composite
4. The Word inherits an enhypostatized humanity in his pre-eternal divine hypostasis and now has two enhypostatic parts generating the "genesis" of his whole
The miaphysite position retains a distinction between the created and uncreated but not a division into two, nor do we affirm anything can ever be inserted into the one God to change his intrinsic modality. We believe the Word and the Flesh unite with their difference remaining yet not dividing the becoming of one composite hypostasis.
@@ApostolicOrthodoxy I am aware of Maximus language but I am still not certain why you find it problematic.
Rather than drill down on Maximus specifically, I wonder if you can expound more on how you believe the “Union” took place. It’s a Union that maintains distinction but not division. Can you explain where the Union took place? The Nature? Which nature? The Person?
Also, why do you disagree with Chalcedon? Does it sit well with you that Leo, the successor of Peter, spoke this? Or does Romes honorific position not matter in Oriental Orthodoxy?
Just trying to better understand.
Thanks for Challenging Jay. Jay seems to get frustrated very easily, and doesn't know how to have a discussion with anyone who challenges his beliefs or conclusions. Off topic, but notice that he is seen as some sort of expert sage philosopher, but he denies that the Apollo Moon Landing really happen.
God Bless you Agen 🙏
Jay Dyer is not very knowledgable about the OO position or understanding. You can even see it in his videos on it.
The guy used to write for Red Ice Tv a Holocaust denier think tank OO is probably too brown and foreign for him to think about.
turning into Orthodoxy
Enhypostasis means that this hypostasis assumes [another] manner of existence. Christ assumed a new manner of existence, he became Man (not mere Man), and this did not result in change of his hypostasis nor in change of his divine essence. Essence (both human and divine) remained and what united divine Logos and human flesh is Divine Logos himself.
W vid as always
i didn't know this is a oo page... goodbye
God bless☦️
I'm a new Christian who's not had much exposure to Oriental Orthodoxy but I think your arguments and presentations have been amazing so far!
I only have Ethiopian Orthodox churches near me and I hear they are potentially very strange. Would they be considered heterodox in your view?
@@WittenbergScholastic every oriental churches are orthodox in there teaching. The Ethiopian orthodox tewahedo church is in no manner heterodox. I would recommend you go check us out. We are very easy to interact with and extremely friendly to outsiders😊
@WittenbergScholastic West Syriac Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox,Armenian Orthodox,Indian Orthodox, Eritrean Orthodox are all Oriental Orthodox.they share the same faith and they are all in Communion.
And there is no strange things in The Ethiopian or Eritrean Orthodox Churchs.
Some people might say so out of ignorance or the fact that there are traditions that might not be found in the other Orthodox Churchs(which are different but not strange), but this infact is something good about them not bad.
Other than that I still like to hear what these strange things could be, and wether they think they are good or bad.
lol don’t become an miaphysite they literally thing christs nature as man and human is now one composite nature… it’s refocus because Christ is a DIVINE SUBJECT WHICH TOOK ONTO HIMSELF A NEW MODE OF EXISTENCE WHICH WAS MAN.
The issue for Orientals is that they lack the metaphysical terminology and depth to make sense of this so they end up collapsing person and nature together and don’t understand that Jesus is a divine subject that TRULY UNDERWENT DEATH AS A HUMAN this doesn’t mean his divinity participated in it which is what oritnrals think but it means the actual SUBJECT underwent the death IN THE HUMAN NATURE. This is something nestorians and Orientlas don’t seem to understand it’s very depressing to see
I used to be Oriental myself granted I wasn’t theologically or philosophically endowed at the time but the logical conclusion of orintal orthodoxy is MiaMonophysitsm check out Orrhodox shahadas video on “refuting oritnetal orthodoxy part 1” skip to 3 hours and 5 minutes in to see why it’s too much to type here.
Good luck brother
Become Catholic
There’s nothing strange about Ethiopian Orthodoxy. Go visit your local EOTC parish and see for yourself.
Jay Dyer is just a joke 😂😂
You cooked Dyer, that's actually crazy asf
For anyone who thinks that when Cyril said one nature Means miaphysitism is completely wrong
What do you think he means by one nature then? Because that’s the definition of miaphysitism.
@@kidus_1010 one incarnate nature of the Word of God” (μία φύσις τοῦ θεοῦ λόγου σεσαρκωμένη) in his writings, notably in his Second Letter to Nestorius. However, this "one nature" does not refer to a single, blended nature after the Incarnation. Instead, Cyril uses this phrase to describe the one person of Christ, in whom the two natures-divine and human-are united.
@@kidus_1010 he says in the formula of reunion which is a reconciliation between Cyril and John of Antioch -For we know the theologians make some things of the Evangelical and Apostolic teaching about the Lord common as pertaining to the one person, and other things they divide as to the two natures, and attribute the worthy ones to God on account of the Divinity of Christ, and the lowly ones on account of his humanity [to his humanity].
@@kidus_1010 Cyril explicitly speaks of “one person” (πρόσωπον)( here in the formula), which is a clear reference to the unity of Christ’s person. This means that, while certain attributes or actions are common to the person of Christ, they pertain to his single person.The phrase “they divide as to the two natures” is explicit. The Greek δύο φύσεις (two natures) grammatically signifies that two distinct natures remain in Christ even after the union.This directly opposes your Miaphysitism, which teaches one blended- Composite nature after the union. Cyril says “theologians divide” certain aspects between the two natures, meaning they maintain a distinction between Christ’s divine and human natures in their theological analysis.Attribute the worthy ones to God on account of the Divinity of Christ”
Cyril is saying that attributes or actions that are “worthy” are attributed to God because of Christ’s divine nature. This clearly separates what belongs to Christ's divinity.
Grammatically, Cyril is drawing a distinction between the divine nature and the human nature when it comes to what actions or qualities are attributed to each.And the lowly ones... on account of his humanity”
Lowly things, or actions that show the limitations of humanity (such as hunger, suffering, and death), are attributed to Christ’s humanity.
Again, this grammar is significant: Cyril explicitly attributes the lowly things to Christ’s human nature. This preserves the distinction between the natures, making it clear that Christ’s divinity and humanity remain distinct in terms of what actions or properties are attributed to each.
@@emje8707I’m gonna stop you right there. You don’t know what miaphysitism is and you need to stop pretending like you do. We don’t believe in a “blended nature” that’s Monophysitism. Nor do we believe that humanity and divinity are the same substance. I know you read van Loon’s book and you think you know what you’re talking about but I regret to inform you that that idiot was just as uneducated as the rest of the Chalcedonian polemicists. Before you say anything else I’m gonna ask you to acknowledge that you don’t know what miaphysitism is…
Jay was getting mad 😂
He is a joke lol
OO W
Etymological fallacy and thinking you cooked.
You didn’t pay attention to the video. Agen explained why even granting Jay whatever nonsense cope of the word enhypostasis he wanted wouldn’t help him avoid the issue of ad intra composition. You are coping hard.
"The idiom of a hypostasis consists in being perceived by itself and being numerically distinguished from the members of the same species. the idiom of an enhypostaton (Ένυποστάτου) is either being known in a hypostasis (ἐν ὑποστάσει) together with another substantially different entity in an indissoluble unity; or in occurring naturally in individual existence"
Maximus of Constantinople, Opuscula Theologica et Polemica 14, De Duabus Christi Naturis, PG91 152D-153
Enhypostasis etymologically means "in hypostasis" and is defined by your fathers to mean "in hypostasis"
I dabated on jays server after that he demanded me to debate in vc i refused after i spoke with someone who has an belessing to teach after i refused to debate dyer banned me
Thats what dyer is he picks of people with lesser knowledge and debates them for his audience but cant take time to make an normal debate with peple like agean
I wanna add that I'm inquiering oriental orthodoxy that's why I don't wanted to debate him the lions den guys told the guy astro to debate him after his catechism after he gained knowledge but dyer just picks out inquiering with less knowledgeable
Dyer is way in over his head here! The Eastern "Orthodox" are on the run from the Oriental Orthodox. Thanks to the internet there can be no more running.
How you wait for the EO to take the holy fire .you try to light it you failed
@@ΓραικοςΕλληνας
Holy fire?
@@willyb7353 yes at Easter you take it from the EO that light it by pray .you try and failed!
The Church of the East is the true Church, you are both schismatics.
@@willyb7353 Sounds like a Pentecostal more than Orthodox 💀
No views and only 1 like. You actually fell off
💀
Really
Bro you failed the basics of the discussion twice, Jay is not obligated to speak with you. You want to complain about Jay but you came without humility, claiming he never read Saint Maximus when clearly he’s correcting you on what is in the text in question 😂
Agen told him to keep it respectful multiple times but it was Jay who told him to shut up unprovoked.
@@kidus_1010 he was yapping bro, you act like I’m here to defend Jay. Do you understand your guy never made an actual argument? Then wants to make a cope video so all you can gas him up and say he’s right. It’s an ego trip and you’re clearly enjoying being along for the ride which is the funniest part
@@jacobfavret1729
>STOP BEING DISRESPECTRFUL
>but hes the one who said shut up and agen was the one trying to keep it respectful
>NO BRO HE WAS YAPPING THERE YOU DONT GET IT
@@mario4782 your boy never made an argument, that’s called yapping
@@jacobfavret1729 You mean your boy???? He is good in running mode mode mode
"Apostolic" "Orthodoxy"
>gets the natures wrong and rejects the holy miracle performed at the 4th ecumenical council
LOL
Find me one manuscript within 100 years of the “miracle” this happened - it doesn’t exist
There is no miracle at Chalcedon. That’s a medieval legend that Chalcedonians have come to accept and people like Paisios (a proven liar/ignoramus) have perpetuated.
can you tell me how long after the 4th ecumenical council this miracle was recorded? LOL
You're clout chasing. Humble yourself first and you'll have a better conversation with him.
How is he clout chasing? It was Jay Dyer’s fans that begged him to debate Jay. Stop repeating this stupid script that Jay tells people to say when he loses a debate…
@@kidus_1010 Nobody is asking this guy to debate Jay lol. The only script running is in your head.
@@AnthonyLopez-c4r go look at the comments in the last video- the discussion with Joshy- and the stream after this video- and come back and tell me no one was asking Agen to debate Jay. Matter of fact look at the live chat on Jay’s own stream (oh wait you can’t because Jay took it down out of fear). Come back and reply so we can laugh at you and your pathetic self deception and prelest.
>Be snarky Dyerite (Christian version of reddit athiest)
> Say "Debate Jay dyer bro he will DESTROY YOU!" to Agen constantly
>Agen debates Jay Dyer
> Jay Dyer loses
> "hes just clout chasing maaaan it don't even matter maaan dyer still the best!"
What a travesty.
He didn't take you seriously because you behaved like a prankster.
In what way did Agen behave like a prankster? He joined the stream respectfully and brought a critique of Dyer’s position to which Dyer acted like a baby and hyper fixated on an irrelevant issue to avoid the consequences of his position. And then Jay, like a child, says “I bEt I’Ve rEad mORe mAxiMuS tHan yOU”
Jay Dyer was embarrassing!
"I dOn'T hAvE tO dEbATe yoU!"
As if there aren't people watching who want to know more about what the actual Coptic position is, instead of what the EO calls them, Nestorians, simply heretical..
I'm just eating popcorn 🍿
Finally some defence of true Orthodoxy. Anyways could anyone just give me a quick answer regarding why the orientals were justified in denying Chalcedon? Thank you.
What do you mean by when?
@kidus_1010 my bad g
I appreciate you dearly. God bless you. Send it to Sam Shamoun who promoted this clown
I don't know who's worse, Sam, or Dyer..
@willyb7353 Why is Sam bad? He gave a platform for Daniel Kakish, whose OO.
@@Christi_Bellator
He didn't condemn Pope Francis's statement, did he?
@@willyb7353he did
He did ,but the purpose was to gather big numbers from the O O to follow him ,then He defended Francis, and he still promotes Catholicism @Christi_Bellator
All the Orientals are coping bad, these comments are hilarious😂😂😂
Why do you comment when you have no idea what the discussion was even about? It’s clueless individuals like yourself who hype up Jay and feed his ego to the point where he’s so afraid to actually lose a debate that he’ll block anyone and take down his stream behind a paywall so less people see his humiliation.
@@kidus_1010Ah yes. I have no idea what the discussion is about! How did you know? You know me just too perfectly!!! Nice job spouting nonsense. You won! I just don't know anything at all!!!🤗😪🥺
@@yourneighbour3309
Well, can you address the argument, though?
Your boy Dyer got owned.
@@willyb7353 Address the argument that I don't know anything about? The guy who first commented seems to truly know everything about me. If Jay Dyer just kept on losing, scurrying away, and I am just a clueless individual.... I don't think anything I'd say would pass through the other end.
(We also could've jumped right into talking from the get go but instead you guys already know everything about me. Shucks!!! You all won already!!!)
As an EO Jay has sadly become insufferable to watch.
As an OO, I wish we can be united. We shouldn't bash all EOs for one person. Pray for me.
Dyer cooked you bro 😂 you backtracked twice and refused to admit your error. I would’ve booted you too. OO theology is literally just the confusion of nature and hypostasis. How can 1 nature be both Human and Divine? This implies he is 50% of either, in other words a mixed nature. May even imply that Theosis is achieved through the essence of God and not his grace. Blasphemy. Quite clearly an error and misunderstanding of nature. Jesus is 100% Human and 100% divine, 2 natures 1 hypostasis.
Don't you think what you saying nestorian?
Apparently booting someone is owning.
@@AroundElvesWatchUrselves96 🤣 I guess so.
@@AroundElvesWatchUrselves96 apparently getting booted proves you’re right. The “he booted me” fallacy
@@senayghirmay8172 Nestorius: ”He who was formed in the womb of Mary was not God himself, but God assumed him”, Nestorius literally denies his Godhood. What are you talking about?
I can not find oriental dogma anywhere. What do Orientals believe besides miaphysitism ? Do you hold to ancestral sin or original sin ? Essence energy distinction or Divine Simplicity ? Do you have resources or a list which states dogma ?
Join the server linked in the description and ask all your questions there. Resources and answers are available to you. You can find our dogma everywhere on the internet or even if you ask a local parish. Just don’t get your information about us from non OO sources. They are 99% wrong
We believe in miaphysitism
We believe in formal Essence-energy distinction
We also believe in divine simplicity
We believe in original sin (not inherited guilt of Adam)
We have books, catechisms, websites, youtube channels, everything.
@@kidus_1010 your doctrine on the internet is not concise. Do you believe divine simplicity or essence energy distinction ? Both are not compatible if we are talking about the Palamite vs Thomistic formulation. If you say Divine Simplicity to mean just “no parts” you still can not affirm that because the Palamite position purposes that some essences are created and some are uncreated, which means God gained something ontologically from a created energy.
@@WaterMelon-Cat I’m not talking about either the Palamite EED or Thomistic ADS doctrines. Both are heretical. That’s why I clarified that we believe in a formal essence energy distinction not a major real one.
If we are talking in terms of created and uncreated, would the miaphysite position admit there are two natures in Christ?
We say that Christ is OF 2 natures. The two are inseparably united as ONE nature. So according to the constituents that compose the whole, Christ’s nature is both uncreated AND created.
@@kidus_1010 is Christs nature the only example of something that is both created and uncreated?
@@ryanharvey4555 Yes. As the Cappadocians and St. Ephraim say, it’s a “novel union”, it’s a “new mixture”. Meaning there has never been anything like it. God is the only uncreated thing and He’s never become one with something created of course.
(When the fathers speak of mixture btw, they don’t mean a Eutychean mixture obviously, mixture is another word that is often used by the saints to refer to the union)
@@ryanharvey4555😂 you question shows how you have no clue about our position
@@kidus_1010they are pity trust me. They are truly ignorant about our Orthodox faith
Dyer is bad in theology and even worse in philosophy.
OO’s are the OG Schismatics
stop coping lil bro. Your boy Dyer got cooked
@@kidus_1010 the only thing that was cooked is your heretical miaphysite position 👌🏻😂
@@FeralGroyperyou’re definitely 13 years old.
@@kidus_1010 Ad Hominem? I guess thats how you all argue is with fallicious reasoning right ?
@@kidus_1010 why you get cooked each year taking the holy fire from the EO you try to light it failed
From an Eastern Orthodox Christian, what is the Oriental Orthodox understanding of the hypostatic union in Christ?
The hypostatic union is a union of 2 hypostases into one composite hypostasis without mixture, change, or confusion. Hypostasis does not mean person but it means an individual reality. After the union, the one Christ retains the properties of both elements but subsists as one individual reality, not two. St. Cyril makes the analogy of the union of the body and soul in the one nature of man. Two unlike elements come together to make one nature. This is the faith of the fathers.
@@kidus_1010it seems you’re using the word hypostases as nature. Is hypostases not mean an individual reality?
@@Seek.ForTruth2 The word nature is used to indicate hypostasis (individual reality) as well as ousia (essence). So nature can mean hypostasis depending on the context.
@@kidus_1010 but I thought it is the hypostases that possesses essence/nature
@@Seek.ForTruth2 That would be the Chalcedonian definition of hypostasis meaning Person.
There are a lot of very nuanced philosophical things to be said, but all things considered I don’t really see much of a tangible difference between Eastern and Coptic orthodoxy when it comes to the actual repercussions of each sides perceived heresy by the other. There are definitely heretical positions that clearly went off the deep end, but I just don’t see that from either side in this debate.
@@braindead5834 in simple terms:
E.O: 1 person(hypostasis), 2 natures(ousia/essence) according to most e.os
O.O: 1 person(prosopon), 1 composite nature(composite hypostasis), 2 natures(ousia/essence). We use the word nature(physis) for both hypostasis and ousia depending on what category we are referring to aka the particular or universal.
Happens to the best. 😊
Its Look like, the got all the Same Spirit, in germany They doing the same thing
Lord have mercy, I share witness to this grievance..
not bad dude
Haha Christians are so divided glad I am an athiest I can enjoy theology because like wrestling it's entertainment
Philosophy doesn't explain bible.
It explains theology created by men.
Ordinary pepe want clear yet true information.
To all christians
Mark 12 matth 22 John 17
Coupled with
There is one God and father of us all
I am your master
You are brethren
I am Going to my God and your God
My father and your father.
That's clear enough.
When you pray say our father is in heaven.
No ambiguity.
About Jesus
In OT
Gen 49 v 20 one with the law and sceptre comes from Judah
Psalms 110 he sits at God's right hand and is priest forever like Melchizedek
Isaiah 9 psalm 89 Daniel 7
He comes to reign on David's throne and be served by all nations
Isaiah 49 he is God's salvation to the ends of the earth.
That's messiah.
Not God but God's servant sent by God.
Since the fifth century your heresy has been condemned, anathematised and excommunicated from the body of Christ by the Holy Ecumenical Councils.
Who cares what Dyer thinks, the Holy Spirit, through the Fathers spoke and decided your fate.
Repent of your heresy and come back to the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Orthodox Church.
Calling yourself "apostolic orthodoxy"............is blasphemy 😅😂
Since 431 Ephesus has condemned two natures after the union. Who cares what Vartholomeos thinks. The Holy Spirit, through the Fathers spoke and decided your fate.
Repent of your heresy and come back to the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Orthodox Church.
Calling yourself "eastern orthodoxy"............is blasphemy
@ApostolicOrthodoxy
I don't care what Vartholomeos thinks??
The council of Ephesus condemned Nestorius.
And I DID NOT call myself eastern orthodox.
Your whole comment was a BS Fallacy
@@Vartholomeos.keep crying. The council of Ephesus said “there were not two things or two natures”
@kidus_1010
Your cult/heresy/blasphemy has been universally anathematised by the Ecumenical Councils, and confirmed by the following councils up until this day........NOT Orthodox doctrine.
So, YOU will be crying eternally if not repentant, not me.
From 451 according to ALL the Holy councils YOU'RE a heretic........not me.
I don't CARE what you or your "fathers" say or think, makes NO difference to the truth.
Stay in your cult, makes no difference to me friend, nor will I believe ANYTHING you sperg out in your BS comments.
ORTHODOXY or death!!
Glory to Christ, Orthodoxy and the Holy Fathers, ANATHEMA to every heresy, now and ever and until the ages of ages!!
@kidus_1010
Your cult/heresy/blasphemy has been universally anathematised by the Ecumenical Councils, and confirmed by the following councils up until this day........NOT Orthodox doctrine.
So, YOU will be crying eternally if not repentant, not me.
From 451 according to ALL the Holy councils YOU'RE a heretic........not me.
I don't CARE what you or your "fathers" say or think, makes NO difference to the truth.
Stay in your cult, makes no difference to me friend, nor will I believe ANYTHING you sperg out in your BS comments.
ORTHODOXY or death!!
Glory to Christ, Orthodoxy and the Holy Fathers, ANATHEMA to every heresy, now and ever and until the ages of ages!!
Both is joke. Gud is Santas cousin
But he did answer your question, it wasn't the answer you wanted. Rest is circus bullying. Its a common thing for deceivers when they get their point answered to just machine gun more venom instead addressing the fact that their "gotcha" didn't work. Jay will simply bully and interrupt such operators of bad will.
What was the answer? "How is suffering intrinsic to the Godhead?" That's not an answer. I applied a disjunction, either the property is extrinsic or intrinsic, he denied its extrinsic so by disjunction it would be intrinsic. Him denying the logical conclusion isn't an "answer". The deceiver is the one who puts the stream behind a paywall, not the one who uploads the video for all to see
Honestly Dyer was dodging. He was saying things that he himself would not accept an argument. Such as " I've read more Maximus than you" or something like that, which is a fallacy.
You got exposed 😂 tertium quid L
ur delusional
??
ppl just yap did u even watch the video
The tritium quid you say is thought by st cyril you idiot😂😂😂. The lack of historical context and understanding of it in this e.os is hilarious🤣🤣🤣
@@Teddy-ke6xh
Nope, they came here just to dogpile and say they won. In a few days, there'll probably be EO bots acting like Dyer was cooking. L.O.L! I'm getting further and further from EO..
I appreciate Oriental Orthodoxy in a world like this one, I really do.
love being eritrean orthodox ❤❤❤❤❤ OO 4eva🤍🌷
Blessings of Christ to you.
Most u tools think your EO in the west lol you think we are the same lmfao 🤣 go educate your people about what they are, your not ORTHODOX your a group of heretics who rejected the councils and yes I used to also be an OO I have since repented
@@Miaphysite3 my comments keep getting deleted lol... Heretic moment from u son
Two clowns arguing over renaissance era Christianity without having any clue on what the early Christians believed.
Who are you😂
Renaissance era Christianity? Are you slow?
Low IQ take
lmao here comes the golem prot with his 20IQ take
@@sebastianvakarian9773
Wherever "Jesus" is mentioned, they come out of nowhere to spit at everyone. It's typical.