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BotR and British Muzzleloaders Discussion: Boer War Lessons Learned
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2018
- Link to Rob's (better!) version: • The Mk I Lee-Metford a...
Mike and Rob discuss how the lessons learned in the Boer War impacted the rifles and personal carrying equipment of the British soldier in the run up to 1914. How and why did it result ultimately in the SMLE Mk.III and 1908-pattern belt kit, from a starting point of the MLE/MLM and Slade-Wallace equipment?
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If you noticed my verbal tick, I'm terribly sorry. I tried to minimise it in post-production but couldn't. I will try really hard in future not to do that when I'm filming a discussion video. Personally I find it really annoying and it bugged the heck out of me during editing.
oh you perfectionist. it's fine, I barely noticed it towards the end of the video, overall it's so little that it makes no difference at all. it's a great video!
I suspect it will be one of those things that you notice and get bugged by waaayyy more than anyone else does. I honestly hadn't really noticed before reading your comment. Definitely does not detract from the video as a whole.
its like a act of understanding
Could be worse
Hmm, no worries mate 👍
"This isn't the Sudan?!" LOL, right up there with "Well, you see, George, I did like it, back in the old days when the prerequisite was that the enemy should under no circumstances carry guns - even spears made us think twice. The kind of people we liked to fight were two feet tall and armed with dry grass."
Don't forget the sharpened mangoes :D
Is that from Blackadder?
I got cut off, rerouted to black, Delta State guys in Ottawa.
Of course theres rounds about. Were pretending to kill theoretically aliens as well.
*Rob walks into a building dressed up*
Rob: This isn't the Sudan?
me: you're in a hardware store sir XD
Give it 40 years rob will wonder away from the nurse and probably find himself in that situation
But then again I probably will too
Got any O's?
I love how most of the Gun Channels on RUclips get along so well, and collaborate with each other. The RUclips firearms community is a great community.
Fox D very true
@@SimuLord I would also add a few more... The blow up everything gun channels, the Political Gun Channels, the Review Channels, and the Total Idiot Moron gun channels that host people that know nothing about firearms but think that they are experts but they really are so bad that they probably should not even be around firearms.
@@thelastjohnwayne along with all their (usually somewhat) different fanbases
I've settled into the historic guys (Bloke and British and Forgotten Weapons and Mike B) and then Paul Harrell.
I live in South Africa, very close to the battlefields of Spion Kop, Colenso etc near the Tugela river. What i think a log of people dont appreciate is how much the landscape here favours the defender- there are vast fields of fire in amongst hills dotted here and there with cover. If one takes a trip around the Tugela line it's very easy to see how difficult it would be to dislodge a relatively small but dug in force.
I've climbed Spion Kop, it's a long hard vertical chore even in the daylight without a pack and rifle.
Ja, to this day you can still find the lead
that intro was like the blurb for Blackadder Goes Forth
quite right
That Canadian guy is great ,he really knows his stuff and explains it very well .
That intro was quite funny
At Magersfontein you can still see the stripes of lead on the rocks on the hill above the trenches where the 303 bullets hit. Amazing to see.
Speaking of collaborations, I'd love to see the both of you collab with InRangeTV and maybe run a 2-gun match with your gear
Some day I want to see Ian from Forgotten Weapons, Hikok 45, Military Arms Channel, Rob and Mike all do a video together.
Richard Dunn yes but unfortunately the chance of that happening is slim to nil
Richard Dunn I could see Ian and these two, but not the others.
True, I was just thinking along the lines of the top five gun youtube channels. I think Ian and Mike have done a couple videos together before already.
Richard Dunn I think Ian could get along with BML and BoTR ...they all three like history and mechanics! Hickok45 is a little too intense and mainly does presently available handguns, not available in Canada and not of the historical genre. MAC, I don't like them! Their channel is all Tacti-cool "shoot 'em up stuff". Ian, Rob and BoTR wouldn't get along with them At All!
Dustin O'Connor I dont think they’d actually get on you know. I actually got into a bit of a dispute with mac from military arms channel. Basically left a comment saying that when he’d said people who say lead bullets are bad for the environment are idiots because lead comes from the earth that that was a reducto ad absurdum. Proceeded to get into this mental back and forth in which he essentially starting spouting how the bible gave him the right to do what he wants as it came to the beasts of the land or some such biblical nonsense. Really disappointing as i was a big fan of the channel (sorry for any of the religious amongst you who agree with him).
But yeah i doubt he’d hit it off with either of these two if he’s that religious, dunno about Ian but i would guess the same.
Please I love these collaborations they add context, rational, important information and so help to make sense of things. The later 19th century forward to perhaps just post WWII is an era of major interest to me. Some collaborations covering things done and learnt from pivotal conflicts as the Russo -Turkish war, The Balkan Wars (1912 & 13) and the Russo Japanese War would be heaven
3:03 talking about .303... did you plan that?
Serendipity :D
Oof
dazaspc one of the best scenes.
He talked about it under “Rule 303!”
That sporran creates a really obvious aiming point at a REALLY unfortunate location. Almost looks like a sight picture!
31:59 I find your lack of "aught" in 30-06 disturbing.
because it's not the 19th century anymore?
I find your usage of ought disturbing, so all is equal I suppose?
@@jamietus1012 I don't, so yes
The Swiss influence
I've been to some of the battlefields like Bronkhorstspruit where my great great granddad capped a few khakis. So many good people died because of Cecil and his company of Cronies.
Yes! Your spot-on the Boer farmers came to Britain to by. mining equipment and like most businesse deels of that time visited the Charlton-club in the pre-electronic era, where most of the waiter's were MI - 5 agents. It is hear that the horror begins. the staff overheard that the Dutch settlers had found gold & diamonds aplenty, this information made its way to you know who, and the rest my friend is History.
Optimism: Engaging the enemy at 2,800 yards.
... with indirect fire aka modern field artillery A lesson to be learned in 1914
Still lethal though.
Gotta love a volley sight!!
"And war were declared"....lol hint to Othias!!!!!!
well, guess what.... :-)
Worth the time to watch. Topic was interesting but might not have carried the day without the uniforms and scenery. Fun and educational.
wouldn't have been the same sitting behind a table indeed :)
Pauses video, obtains large mug of tea, returns to desk and then resumes watching!
Same here except tea is coffee!!! My dream team in on!
ZerokillerOppel1 what kind of a Brit are you, for shame
Perhaps the kind of Brit that makes his or her tea by throwing it in the Boston harbor.
I'm Dutch...we're addicted to coffee here...
Colburn F - Herrocy! I now feel compelled to burn the nearest white building I come across!
The crossover nobody realized they even wanted until they got it.
Met a bloke in Chloride Az. And has that early kit, . Helmet ,tunic, webbing etched have a St. Patrick Day parade and whole town turns out, .I chat w/ him a bout his uniform , it stand out against the old west ghost towm. - right, one of the locals, and history buff as well. I collect military kit too& he gave me some Vietnam era fatigues & a canteen w/ cup- stove. I use the cup& stove daily for my AM coffee.
A very nice gesture on his part
Kipling's The Lesson: I just had to . . .
Let us admit it fairly, as a business people should,
We have had no end of a lesson: it will do us no end of good.
Not on a single issue, or in one direction or twain,
But conclusively, comprehensively, and several times and
again,
Were all our most holy illusions knocked higher than Gilderoy's kite.*
We have had a jolly good lesson, and it serves us jolly well
right ! .
This was not bestowed us under the trees, nor yet in the shade
of a tent,
But swingingly, over eleven degrees of a bare brown continent.
From Lamberts to Delagoa Bay, and from Pietersburg to
Sutherland,
Fell the phenomenal lesson we learned-with a fullness accorded no other land.
It was our fault, and our very great fault, and not the judgment of Heaven.
We made an Army in our own image, on an island nine by
seven,
Which faithfully mirrored its makers' ideals, equipment, and
mental attitude--
And so we got our lesson: and we ought to accept it with
gratitude.
We have spent two hundred million pounds to prove the fact
once more,
That horses are quicker than men afoot, since two and two
make four;
And horses have four legs, and men have two legs, and two
into four goes twice,
And nothing over except our lesson--and very cheap at the
price.
For remember (this our children shall know: we are too near
for that knowledge)
Not our mere astonied camps, but Council and Creed and
College--
All the obese, unchallenged old things that stifle and overlie
us--
Have felt the effects of the lesson we got - an advantage no
money could by us!
Then let us develop this marvellous asset which we alone
command,
And which, it may subsequently transpire, will be worth as
much as the Rand.
Let us approach this pivotal fact in a humble yet hopeful
mood--
We have had no end of a lesson, it will do us no end of good!
It was our fault, and our very great fault--and now we must
turn it to use.
We have forty million reasons for failure, but not a single
excuse.
So the more we work and the less we talk the better results
we shall get--
We have had an Imperial lesson; it may make us an Empire
yet!
* Gilderoy : bandit, hung as a spectacle, some say a tethered kite.
Two of my favourite channels together! Canadian wilderness horticulture and Dress Up for Blokes.
I have two questions:
Did he dress you ?
Was he giddy while going it ?
Ans: Yes and yes.
Really, really, interesting discussion from two of my favourite RUclipsrs.
I say this at the outset as an LE Collector and Shooter, my Great Grandfather served as Rifleman in The Kings Royal Rifle Corps, 3rd Bn, from 1899-1915 ... he fought with the KRRC 60th during the 2nd Anglo Boer War throughout several famous engagements including the raising of the Seige of Ladysmith (The 3rd Battalion were in Buller's relief force) and Battle of Spion Kop where in this action, the 3rd KRRC scaled the heights in a very determined way and achieved their goal... During his service he carried both the Long Lee and the Short Magazine Lee Enfield. The Regimental and Bn Diaries of the KRRC do much to clarify and dispel myths surrounding the weapons and actions of both parties during the conflict as they are surprisingly frank and do not tend toward obfuscation of the facts. His war record also indicates he was trained as M.I (Mounted Infantry) as the KRRC had detachments of M.I selected from each Bn to be attached to various other Regiments or Bn's as the need may require. It goes without saying I'll be watching this episode with more than a passing interest.
These are such great, informative, and fun videos
" THEY ONLY HAVE SPEARS"..... oh boy I'm smiling as I shouldn't be.
Oh boy, my two favorit youtubers in the same video. :D
God bless British Rifles.
Great to see you working with Rob, he helped me get my 2 band Enfield up and running, a great guy!
That was a enlightening and enjoyable discussion, gentleman. Thank you for your effort and much research on this topic. The whole video was very enjoyable for us militaryhistory buffs. Keep up the great work. 👍👍👍
Loved the intro, very funny boys. great insight and knowledge, throughout very interesting. cheers
Thanks!
This is a very good video. Very informative. If it hasn't already been mentioned, there is a very good evolution and adoption of the Lee-Medfords through the SMLE of WW1 over on C&Rsenal. It a long, two part video but very worthy of the time to watch them.
Lovely stuff. Reading about the Boer War battles, it struck me that the British did have a coherent tactical doctrine, which in part relied on artillery firing shrapnel to slaughter the enemy or at least keep their heads down while the infantry closed in for the kill. The problem with that concept was that the artillery had to get close enough to the Boer rifle line for the guns and horses to make excellent long range rifle targets for the Boers. The result was a form of area fire--shoot the horses, shoot at the guns, hit the gunners--that was effective enough to take the guns out of action. And once the guns fell silent, the infantry was flummoxed. It's another example of the area fire effect that Rob discusses at the end of the video.
My great-grandfather on my mother's side (born in England) was a Private in the British Army during the Boer War. We have a portrait of him in uniform. My grandmother and grandfather on my mother's side immigrated to the US. CWO4, US Navy, Retired, 1973-1995.
*moustache bristles* Those spectacles are highly irregular!
Very nice to see such a collaboration. And the Bloke even managed to cough up the truth about the Mauser. Must have nearly killed you to say it Bloke. Well done :) Seriously though. A stout effort. Hope you forever continue the good work. - Peter.
Awesome video! Hilarious intro, too! The Boers had '93 and '95 Mausers in 7mm, right? We Americans had to learn our lesson too as that is what the Spanish had in Cuba and we had Krags in .30-40. .30-40 isn't exactly a flat shooting, long range round. Did I mention that the Spanish had Maxim guns and the US V corps in Cuba only had 2 air cooled M1895 Colt MGs and Gatling guns in .45-70 and .30 Krag.
Jacob Hoffman The 71st New York Infantry had trapdoors in Cuba! But most of V corps had Krags!
Was looking for information on my research of the Boer Wars. This was very fascinating and you got a new subscriber.
Bloke on the Mountain Range.
If they were on a cruise ship would that be bloke on the ocean wave?
Once again, brilliant video! Please keep up the good work.
It's been a great learning experience.
BRAVO! :)
YES!!! I'm so happy seeing you two in one video great stuff!
Another great collaboration video. As a resident of the lower mainland of BC, I sure wish I'd known Mike was coming out so I could have met him.
I must say that is a wonderful backdrop for this video
Churchill speaks a lot of the tactical issues and difficulties during the boat war in his autobiography “MY EARLY LIFE”
The “Boat War”? Most peculiar
Mhm.....MHm....Mhm.... Mhm...
Just funny is all.
Actually it gets pretty distracting.
Great explanation of late 19th century infantry tactics. Thank-you.
I own a 280 Remington and you would be correct. Yea unnecessarily powerful for a military cartridge.
There's no such thing as too powerful! (Flounces off to sit in corner with grubby fictures of .276 Enfield)
Good thing you were there to set Rob straight. I'm pretty sure Belgium looks a lot different than the Sudan. Hehehe...
As I said on Rob's channel, I loved the conversation.
Well the fact of the matter is, if the Boers had 40 % of the British numbers, the British empire would have lost. But there were more British soldiers than Boer children, fighters an women combined. We were outnumbered 7 to 1.
I have a very nice No1 MK 1 Lee Enfield with the changer guide on the bolt. I got it back in the 70's it is all matching numbers and in excellent condition date 1901 BSA manufactured.
That’s very early, maybe yours was a conversion from an MLE?
@@DefunctYompelvert My mistake it is dated 1903 I wrote the comment from memory but I looked at it and saw it is 1903.
Very good stuff lads
Mhm, love the in depth look at equipment.
I love this collaboration!
Great collaboration.
Another top hit, great vod.
All we need is Lindybeige, British Muzzleloaders, BOTR and Ian McCollum to do a collab and my life will be complete
I've collabed individually with all of those gentlement, but not together :)
Don't worry about the length of time. I was disappointed when it ended. Well done Rob for the defence of the volley sight. It did the same job as the Enfield muzzle loader did at long range until the medium machine gun took over the role of creating a beaten zone to deny ground at a distance. Until you got machine guns in large numbers it was still useful-with trained troops. If you can see that far.
Always be a feared of the man in a kilt! well unless some has a picture he should worry about ? hmmm
The kilt looks cool but under the African sun I think it was the wrong kit, at the Battle of Magersfontein the entrenched Boerz had them pinned down in the sun for a whole day and the Scotts got big time sun burn.
As the owner of a boer mauser, unless y'all are 7 or 8 feet tall those mausers dwarf the Lee's also thank you for informing me of what to feed it
Please someone make a remix of Botr's umhums please 😂😂
It is a very interesting and Historical video, keep up the good work,
I do a little quarter-nod in the same circumstances for the same reason (to show attentiveness and comprehension). A speech therapist was not able to rid me if this, but it’s less noticeable than the stammer I went in for.
The story of the Red Coats is people mixing up the first and second Boer Wars. In the first, the British Army wore red coats (and at Laing's Nek, the Highlanders kept charging against shallow trenches, up an extremely steep slope, and were slaughtered, so that's the battle the rest of the story comes from).
Among the lessons of the first Boer War was that red coats and just charging bravely were ineffective against modern armies. Khaki kit is something that resulted.
Monty Python meets Dad's Army, meets Blackadder. Nice!
Great discussion. New sub for BML!
On the point of the 1903 Bandolier being used for drivers it was still being used by the last mounted cavalry regiments being the Household Cavalry Composite Regiment and the Scots Greys chiefly until 1941 and then it stayed in the Household Cavalry with senior NCOs into the 50s as a uniform item on service dress.
Job well done. Thanks for sharing!
I love your videos. I was wondering, do you know of any other channels that do the same sort of video with American, German or other nations? Would love to see someone do a Spanish-American to WW1 video to compare with this one for the Americans.
Thanks - sorry, I'm not aware of any doing other nations.
The equipt referred to at 24.00, (approx) in service is called "soft ordnance", commonly - webbbing
One uniform is a bit "snug" when many original belts etc. can't be more than 30". Great you two got together in BC
Rob, very interesting analysis of how the training Pamphlets strategies were ignored. However, you should not that your left hand *must* be positioned in front of the magazine, and *never* in contact with the magazine, as the shared magazine and sear spring will be affected if your hand is pressing on the magazine. That said, it's great to hear someone correctly explaining use of single round loading, charger loading, and use of the magazine cut-off. These things which so often are incorrectly explained. Nice one.
Chargers, *never* clips, were a topping off device which added 5 rounds to a partially-depleted 10 round magazine, and were *never* used to fully charge the magazine. If you attempt to load a 10 round Lee-Enfield magazine from 2x 5rounds chargers, the rimmed cartridge would cause a jam. See the jam clearance procedure of pushing the rounds to the bottom of the magazine to understand this. It's why the base of the Lee-Enfield magazine is at such a steep angle.
Soldiers carried 120 rounds, versus 150 rounds, because ammunition was supplied in Imperial quantities. 120 is divisible by 12, whereas 150 is not divisible by 12.
a) re. paragraph 1: can't say I've ever noticed any change in trigger press when pressing on the magazine (not that I press on the magazine.
b) re. 2nd paragraph: Not true. see the 1942 rifle training pamphlet, lesson 5 point 3 here, loading from 1942 onwards explicitly involves the use of 2 chargers: vickersmg.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/01-03-42.pdf
c) re. paragraph 3: pre-charger loading, ammunition was packaged in packets of 10 rounds. Later, bandoliers were of 50 rounds. Not in divisions of 12.
@@BlokeontheRangeLet me repeat that I like and thoroughly enjoyed your video. This is not a criticism, but that I'm adding a few additional comments.
Your 2nd point ("b") is of interest, as my references are for the WW1 training pamphlets. However, the same fact applies. If you can acquire a skeletonized magazine, then it is possible to see what happens when a charger is used to top up a partially depleted magazine vs attempting to fully charge the magazine with 2 x 5 rounds. In particular, the skeletonized magazine allows us to see the very cleverly devised system that allows for all of the rims to stack, each in front of the other, despite having topped up from a charger where two or three of the rims were already fouling each other. The same applies for seeing how the magazine is designed to allow clearances of blockages. Of course, the concept of topping up aligns perfectly with the idea of having a magazine cutoff in earlier rifles, and also explains why a Charger only holds 5 rounds.
Your third point (c). I was merely mentioning that the old Imperial system used by Great Britain throughout her Empire was based upon quantities of 12. Hence 120 rounds vs 150 rounds. British shooters have, on occasion, had to explain this when applying for authority to purchase or possess ammunition, because the authorities like nice round numbers, whereas surplus •303 ammunition is sometimes packaged in crates of Imperial quantities. I merely made mention of this (without going into detail) as the question was raised when you guys were talking about bandoliers. All I'm saying is that sometimes the British Empire used quantities divisible by 12.
Take a shot every time bloke says "mhm"
You need to mention the quality of troops also. Americans faced Spanish troops in Cuba around the same time period. The Spanish had charger loading Mausers the Americans single loading Krags and the Americans defeated the Spanish relatively easily. The main difference was highly motivated volunteers in South Africa and totally unmotivated conscripts in Cuba using basically the same rifle with very different outcomes.
Great video, informative and entertaining!
Another superior video Sir!!!
Nice, 2 of my favourite channels meet 😁👍
Would be interesting to see someone using the volley sights on a giant target
"This isn't the Sudan 1898?"
I'll make sure to use that one.
Kilts were a must in the Sudan. They kept you cool and also kept the flies off your dinner.
Yes, nothing like being wrapped in 7 yards of wool for keeping cool.
Truly an interesting discussion
Remember that time when Bloke blew both his hands off talking about the Boers?
No cause it didn’t happen, stop being a crybaby
Another crux of the matter are the ballistic performance between the early .303 and 7x57mm. Except at close ranges it matters not that the two cartridges produced similar muzzle velocity with similar bullet mass. To this day a 170-175gr 7mm bullet has the highest sectional density of any, and will shoot further than other bullets which have greater mass and even higher velocity. In the open country, the Boers were always able to maintain a standoff range which the British never overcame.
Also the Boers had a genius general, Genl De La Rey was one if the best we had. Interesting fact is the Boer war was the most expensive war the British fought until the First World War. Of all the Lee rifles I like the No4 the most. My father as a child in 1960's still picked up .303 ammunition from the Boer war.
There is an australian movie about the charge of the Lighthorse Men at Bersheba in 1917,the turks start firing at 1600m,but they didn't aim their iron sights when the Diggers came closer, in fact they firing over their heads!
At the outbreak of WW1 there were only one or two factories capable of producing the cloth webbing used. These could not keep up with the vast increase in manpower of the Kitchener Armies and therefore a stopgap leather set, in the same pattern, was edveloped called the 1914 Pattern.
1914 Pattern is not a leather version of 08 pattern, it's quite different. www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1914/1914_introduction.html
@@BlokeontheRange Thanks for the link.
I had read that it was "a version of the '08 Pattern in leather" and assumed it was to the same pattern re pouches (as the 08 web pouch is similar to the previous 03 bandolier pattern you mention in the video). I did wonder though so it is nice to have this clarified.
My other interest in the 14 Pattern is whether my Great Uncle's Battalion (8th Black Watch) would have been equipped with this in France in 1915. As the senior battalion of K1 they arrived in France mid-May 1915 but I haven't been able to find any photos that would solve this mystery. Any ideas for further research would be greatly appreciated!!
Please make a super long video of you two and Ian McCollum chatting over Whiskey.
At least the Brits had a decent bolt action rifle , the Lee- Metford ready in time for the Second Boer War , 303 caliber and smokeless powder , that was a big improvement over the Martini-Henry .577/.460 that the British used during the First Boer War.
Great video! Thank you
They 'could' have adopted a 7mm... 7x57r
It was already chambered in some of the BSA Lee Enfield sporting rifles (such as the Lee 'Speed').
From what I've read it requires no modifications to the Lee Enfield/ Metford beyond a change of barrel.
Something I am soon to find out as true or not as I am having a BSA range pattern MLE rechambered for it. (It was sporterised long before I got it, don't get angry!)
But then
WAR WERE DECLARED
And the economics of it, existing stockpiles of ammunition, arms etc became more important than a phallus measuring competition...
Don't underestimate the economics of a calibre change for an army with worldwide obligations.
Rob's accent is pleasant to hear. not from Ontario I can tell that much.
bloke on the muzzle... perfect
Magersfontein wasn't a disaster....it was a victory.
Great video
also known as the jawa bandoleer?
That thumbnail made me think I was watching a weird twilight zone episode of InRangeTV.
Poor places dont always get the loot box booster packages available upon purchase.
. . .
Let me see what coupons I have for current packages that can be added on.
What of the sight inaccuracies on the British Lee's that lead ultimately to an official enquiry. the findings of which lead to the sighting system correction and much improved accuracy of the British rifles
They realised it was dumb to set the sights at a specific place according to a drawing and not zero them for every rifle individually. They didn't do it cos there was never a requirement to do it (nor to check it on assembled rifles), and then they changed it for the SMLE and the CLLE upgrades.