Nerfed Truetalent's speech! "True now can't speak as we feel it was over used 99% of the time" Otzdarva now no longer has any arms. "We feel he was winning to much so we took away his arms and hands. We feel this will balance the game fairly for survivors running around the cowshed in a 1v1 vs Otz"
No one in the community will ever talk like this besides personalities like True and Otz. It's way too toxic and biased to be taken seriously. Just look at Otz's video on his channel and his comments during the live stream portion. Nothing but toxic remarks against Tru. Attempting to invalidate his argument with little to no evidence aside from "Well I said so".
@@OtsdarvaOS I saw it, he strawmaned his arguments but then tru3 did that in his stream too so this discussion hopefully helped them understand there positions
@@OtsdarvaOS I think the loudest people so to speak are literally children/teenagers. The rest of us can acknowledge that it was a much better and respectful debate the US presidential ones
and that’s the problem :( we don’t want opinions from them we want the facts we have now to change them like the mmr systems and survivors shouldn’t be able to win 1v1 but delay it at least people don’t like it and get hurt because they think it’s freaking for honor or MK to 1v1 a killer your the rat and the killer is cat and both of you are trapped in the same place
@@hunteriq8i45 if the killer is the cat, shouldnt they not feel/be trapped as you said? Also the rest of what you said was pretty much indecipherable for my brain cause as of now ive gone without sleep for almost 48 hours. Also, we should want their opinions. Cause there are no facts, or at least reliable ones. I'm just going to leave this quote for ya, "Data shows nurse is the weakest killer"
This really boils down to "There is no win condition for the game. Therefore we are making up our own win conditions. Our person win conditions are different."
Yep, which is why I felt the hooks vs kills debate wasn't too necessary to have. I do think it was a healthy discussion overall with a mix of different topics, and it could bring both communities together, but at the end of the day, the win condition is up to the player.
It doesn't help that the win condition in the emblem system has no idea what the hell it wants a lot of the times. 4k? Brutal. 10 hooks? Brutal. 2k? Brutal or entity displeased.
The Scott Jund approach, and it makes sense though the discussion is still an interesting watch and I'd love to hear more of it, especially if the devs were to get involved (highly doubt sadly)
I'm subscribed to both and always credit both as to why I've improved drastically throughout the game, playing and empathizing with both sides. I hadn't commented on this situation yet and I'm glad I didn't, would much rather watch them debate civilly instead of having a comment of mine being misunderstood and thrown in with the rest of the unnecessary white knighting drama. Appreciate these two, for their style of play and the fact that they care this much about the game to try and push it towards it's true potential.
Same funny thing is I haven't played much core game just mobile and still have taken what I've learned from the both of them and figured out my own way of doing it on mobile
Kind of sad how all the top comments aren't acknowledging how amazing this is for dbd and for the community itself. Arguably 2 biggest killer content creators having a healthy discussion for the game, fog whispers at that! If they worked together they can have a lot better chance at communicating with the devs.
Yup, and this is the first convo/debate. It was a bit all over because they're trying to touch on a lot. If they have more discussions, they'd improve their focus and probably be able to nail down different things that could really help the game!
As a professional game designer, we never (never) look at average statistics. That would be idiocy for the general health of the game. Especially in a PvP experience. We segment statistics and ensure the ‘meta’ game experience is healthy without hurting new players. You hit the nail on the head here.
So do you feel old ruin was hurting new players?? Cause the devs change it cause they felt like it was troubling for new players🤣 All they had to do was hit a great skill check.
@@anim3z4u I think old ruin was fine. While hitting great skill checks even after hundreds of hours I dont think is a reliable option. The regression wasn't that horrible and you could still power through it. There are tons of times that you go ages without even getting a skillcheck. Alongside its a hex perk so it can easily be completely removed from the game. Which is a who other tangent I have regarding the fact I think it is ridiculous that survivors have the ability to COMPLETELY remove a killers perk(or multiple) from the game
one of the MOST civil conversations ive ever seen thank you both guys and keep up the good work I always enjoy watching you both and really enjoy the civil discussion between streamers that doesnt devolve into name calling and rage.
@Chuck Finley Agreed completely. A little more on Otz side since I like his points a little better, but I felt like tru3 didn’t really get a chance to fully explain his points. Otz was respectful of course, but something just felt like Otz got to speak the most and guide where the conversation went.
That's the sign of a worthwhile debate, both people should explain to the other why they think the way they do. Was a nice watch. Sadly what this also shows is.. the way the game is designed, they gave both extremes, and regardless of which is chosen, the game will inherently have an issue. If you go with Otz idea, slugging becomes a lot stronger, securing 1 hook kills being the focus, but with Tru3, the person who gets hooked will try their BEST to get in your way, it promotes the toxic clicky clicky flashlight, trying to drag them away from fresh hook teammates. real rough state the games in, and even the big guys don't have the perfect answer, nobody does.
@@KumaNicol Very much agree with that. I've seen more toxic players in Dbd, both sides that is, than I have for nearly anything else I've seen. It seems, in my opinion, that this game brings out the worst in people. Which, imo, is probably why there are so many problems. On one side, you have toxic survivors that whine and complain and blame the killer, or even the game, for mistakes they themselves made, or even attempt to make SURE that the killer has no fun, and on the other you have crybaby killers that can't man up and accept the fact that sometimes you just get out played, and ALSO want survivors to not have fun. But at the same time, both Otz and Tru3 want what they believe is best for the game. But the thing is, what someone believes is best for the game isn't always what actually IS best for the game. For example, my personal belief is that smaller map sizes would help balance things a lot more. Killers won't have enormous amounts of time wasted just crossing the map to check a gen(which may, or may not, even have a survivor in it) while also not increasing time to finish a gen, so survivors aren't sitting on them for 20 minutes trying to just not get killed. Regardless of who ends up having the better idea, or what gets implemented, I still hope that the game health takes enough priority in the dev's minds that the biggest problems with the game get fixed, and I'll return to playing again. But, until then, here I sit. Waiting for the update that brings me back in to come.
gg wp lads. nice to see this, long overdue. These discussions are healthy for dbd and the community. Please do this more. A weekly Otz & True discussion would be really good to see, just how each others points on improvements and gripes change. (perhaps monthly is a bit more realistic). Make some lists and topics for a video discussion/discussions. At the least, after updates, a discussion about each others thoughts between you two would be a great addition to the communities insight from two very dedicated players.
So polite to each other. I'm glad you guys decided to get onto dealing with this stuff as soon as you guys could to stop the drama and to have a very good discussion about dbd.
@@bradbrewer3825 Freddy best killer btw, before Freddy was in the game that was Trapper. But yeah nurse just like spirit are very strong killers but they are hard to master. And, which is kind of the reason they are so strong, they do not rely on the survivors mistakes, they rely on you being good with them, on top of out smarting the survivor. Unlike most killers, if you don't play those 2 well and you go against a good survivor, you will never get that person.
@@shion126 yes, thats more or less what im saying. once the person knows how to properly utilize her blinks its a gg. 95% of the time, even a good 4 man isnt doing much against a nurse
I think that True said it best in some of his other videos, the game counts on newer players who will make a lot of mistakes. But when you take on the upper echelon of survivors (oftentimes SWF), their ability to abuse the meta and generators leaves the killer to play in a way that is very dry. Against a good SWF, three generators will be done before a trapper sets up. It takes away from varying gameplay styles because it’s a massive sweaty game. If anything, in my opinion, the developers should divide SWF from Solos better. Depending on the size of the SWF group, maybe the killer can get certain buffs to make the game more balanced. On a normal Solos game, there is more diversity of gameplay styles as it is.
Scott Jund has a pretty solid video tackling this problem. He basically suggests improving info/comms for survivors to make the solo-q experience better without strengthening SWFs.
How do you separate people on coms (which is what you're referring to when you say SWF) from people who just want to play together without coms? I like to play with my friends, but we don't use coms. Should we be penalized even though we have no advantage over a solo queue?
@@reeepingk it depends on what rank you are, are you winning games all the time. but you also know going into the game how your mates play. you dont even know if the svrs in solo q are even english or not.
@@reeepingk you also have to realise a game cant make loads of matchmaking. it would basically be killer vs swf (no comms) swf(with comms) swf (1,2,3,4) (with or without comms) and if they add in solo q comms it would be even bigger. eventually you have to change with the game not the game with you. if you guys swf and dont comm and lose due to it thats ur fault. alll your advantages are there. the game cant tell and neither should it need to. to somehow change a game around the fact you fail. or decide to not use the advantages bestowed upon you
Maybe if Trapper had a few traps automatically set at the start (like in front of pallets. SO that way you save time and can start the game doing chases.
It’s an asymmetrical 4v1 game it is impossible to balance. If you balance around the highest level like tru seems to want, then the 85-90% of the player base that’s casual solo players will stop playing. But if you balance around having the newer players having fun, the older players would leave, and the newer ones would leave once they get more game time. It’s just not possible
@Chuck Finley no sadly it isn't possible to balance an Asymmetrical game that is almost literally the point of the genre Asymmetrical. So I mean that is the start of why that's wrong and a game that has set up a system as it is and won't be changed cuz BHVR has little to work with to make even remotely balanced
@Chuck Finley Thats not what asymmetrical means. In an asymmetrical game both sides play different games with different mechanics and objektives. Chess is not asymmetrical since both players got the same goal and ways to achieve it
Both of them need to be involved with the devs, help them with updates and new chapters and what not, there ideas have potential to make the game so much better.
Aint gonna happen since the dev's have developed a strong ego over time, someone gave a sweet template of a proposed UI (beautiful btw) and the dev's didn't give a sh7t they changed the UI to their specifications to shush up the whiney consumer's. Can't wait till a game similar and WAY better than DBD pop's up, that's going to be a rude awakening for them.
@@darthhavokk701 yeah, if the devs want this to be a "party game" its not gonna last long, they need to cater more towards comp I feel. But I have no faith in the devs whatsoever
@iiYonko but party games don't last, and I mean like I don't really trust the devs with DBD's future, I think they chase people away from the game instead of towards. And its amazing that TRu3 and otz care more than the devs.
@iiYonko very true, but as fast as they gain players they lose them, u want to keep your player base high and not drive people AWAY from the game. if they made the game a little more competitive there might be more people who want to play in tournaments. And then the game will be more popular, and when u have enough players u make a comp and a casual mode
Very respect for both true and Otz. More people need to debate like this. Completely hearing others points and communication is key. Props to both of you fine gentlemen
That’s a coincidence I just said that In a discussion post but i think this would help the game especially since it should be about skill and not cheap shots
@@esbluetheprototype you can easily loop near most hooks. Apart from one's out in the open, the others are always near a couple loops. Even a minute of looping while other person still is losing no time on phase one is a major benefit for survs.
@Harry Beckenbauer I mean If killers get buffed to achieve 12 hooks in every game, killers who play for kills and 4 hooking can get esiar games and on the survivor-side it would be fustrating to deal with these players.
The killers are there to kill the survivors and the survivors are supposed to try and escape. Killers are supposed to try and chase survivors to get more points so they can rank up and obviously getting a few hooks a game is good. But saying prioritizing hooks over kills is just plain stupid. Getting 8 hooks but all survivors escape is just a loss like they failed the objective to kill survivors.
Also the killers who camp and slug are already penalised cause they dont earn as many points and killers who consistently do that dont make it to red ranks lol
@@bucket77 I’ve seen plenty of red rank killers that face camp, proxy camp ppl on hook. It works well against ppl not on comms because they can’t just go “I’m going for the trade” while 2 ppl keep working on gens. You’re lucky to have one survivor that stays on gens when a killer face camps a non swf.
But they are arguing fundamentally different things. Hence why they can both be correct. Tru is saying "We need in incentivize more hooks instead of kills" Otz is saying "for decent killers, they already get lots of hooks." Tru's argument is combating toxicity, Otz's argument is... saying that's already true?
Very good discussion, both were able to get their views expressed perfectly. I think tru3 is onto something, structuring the game to incentivize more hooks and more chases. Imo
You know what I noticed the difference between your fanbase and the other streamers is in your comment section no one seems to be shitting on any other content creator. But in theirs I see you are getting talked bad about alot and I'm honestly suprised. I didn't even know you were hated that badly apparently. Idk why there is so much toxicity towards you lol. Been watching you since fighting game stuff btw.
Yeah, that's because of the pool size. Dogma is a byproduct of a large sample size, and Tru3's channel is exclusively made up of clips from his Twitch. So less people watch. I highly doubt it would 100% down the board.
Whatever you do, don't mention Tru3 on reddit. Seemingly absolutely everybody hates him on there and don't you dare ask for a reason. The mental gymnastics, people are willing to perform after that, is more impressive than the paralympics tbh...
One is a general statement towards survivors you face in the game considering the fact that True said that killers could do nothing at all. The second one is specific about the cases where survivors have a ton of synergy where the average killer didnt prepare for it. 2 different statements in 2 different contexts. Context matters.
I don't know why you guys are so but hurt. I've criticized True many times, and now I'm criticizing OTZ, who btw, used to be one of my favorite streamers until he started sugarcoating all the BS the devs throw at us. Seriously, this mentality of just pandering the Devs is what brought this game to this shit show that has been for the past months. No other community would accept the latests patches, and specially the way they threat and censor their community on the forums.
@@HurDurTankGoVRROOM which point? The entire video OTZ spends time arguing that some things in the killer side might be opressibe, just to imediatelly say that is survivors' own fault cause their not playing well. Not to mention the extreme examples he uses.
When I initially saw Otz's "Win" streak I was confused. What is "winning" in DBD? I can get Ruthless Killer without a kill sometimes. Then I watched the first video and he had just set some rules up for it and I was perfectly ok with it. I can see where Tru is coming from with the titles being a bit misleading because most people may not look into it any deeper than surface level.
Im soooo glad you guys actually got together to talk about this so people stop thinking there is beef between you guys, the fact people thought that there was is sad
props to both of you for making the time and talking about issues in the game, we need more of this. I see both perspectives as correct in their own ways very difficult to make the game both fun and balanced for killer and survivor unfortunately, but with more discussion and ideas we may get closer to that end goal
Watched the whole vid and the Otz’s one. Don’t wanna put a shade on him yet Otz tends to prove his point with only his own experience which is not always valid for the whole community and game in general. Also appreciate that tru3 posts every single video from streams with no cuts while other streamers usually upload only successful ones. Kudos to you, tru3 and tks for civil conversation
I feel like the things otz said about protection hits and going down isn't very common and not very consistent for example nurse no body blocking against her. Also what tru said is so very right going for the weakest is good for the killer but horrible for the survivor.
Holy.... I love Otz but honestly it was painful to watch as he was contradicting himself so hard. It even sounded like that Jordan Peterson interview with all those "So you are saying". It felt like he wanted to defend his content creation and tournament thingies rather than acknowledge that there is an issue.
This was a pretty good debate, and honestly probably one of the best things that have happened in the Dbd community. Although I do feel otz tried taking control of the conversation a lot of times and also cut Tru off a lot, could've been intentional or unintentional but it doesn't really matter since the whole debate was still a good thing Imo
@Bubba101 Point of a debate isn't to disagree with everything the other person says, debates let people give their viewpoints on something and their reasons for that viewpoint.
@@ASR_13 He also cut True off multiple times and talked over him several times xD it was slightly frustrating but as I said, all in all, it was a good thing, and Tru handled it really well
@[JINX] Reaper I didn’t see it that way. They both talked over each other and let the other talk equally. It’s a part of a conversation sometimes it’s your turn to keep talking and sometimes you should just shut up and listen. I feel like both of them were very civilized and both knew their way around a conversation. I feel like you’re only noticing the times Otz did the talking and True shut up and not when it happened the other way around. All in all a great discussion and I wish that the devs would listen to people that actually understand their game and not their incredibly flawed statistics.
@Bubba101 Yes, but for a few of those he had to use very extreme cases and it turns out that he agreed with the point anyway which was just making it a pointless tangent. Ofc you can counter one argument with another and both of them did this multiple times (surprise surprise) but there were a few times where it leads to nothing
Honestly THANK YOU so much for having a discussion together. :D I was lowkey scared of the whole situation just escalating... It's nice to see that "conflicting" sides of this game come together and just sit down and talk. Also a collab between you two is just a cool thing to watch tbh, cant wait for part 2! :D
I love that 2 respectful streamers can sit down and talk about differences they have. People dont understand you can respectfully have a debate, its not a bad thing to be or partialy be wrong.
Yeah, I think he don't consider a lot of solutions to big problems cause them are not perfect and leave a number of smaller problems,not that he should, just my impression in this and a few other videos.
This is pure gold. DBD Devs can just pick this up and start working based on whats been discussed in the debate. 2 of the most prominent and respected DBD streamers coming together to have a proper Gentlemen's Debate based off of experience, stats and game improving suggestions.
I second this. I love discussions being had like what Otz and Tru3 has done. Bouncing ideas and discussing things about the game between members of the community like streamers and other content creators benefits us all I believe
Otz flaw in his logic is the fact that he’s trying to apply it at every level of the game. For example, I’d way rather killer be fun and fair for all the killers except trapper and hag if that means the other killers are good/even. I mean i know for a fact ppl are tired of going against nurse/freddy/spirit. You can’t defend every level of game to try and balance it. AND OBVIOUSLY there are a TON of trash players at every level due to the poor ranking system too, killer will always destroy the survivors at any rank unless they’re a swf.
Otz counters Tru3 by saying that we should balance the game for the majority of players and not exactly the top % at the beginning, but then brings up how “going for hooks” can be countered by top % players.
Tru and Otz: This was nice I liked it. Otz chat: Tru's an idiot, and doesn't know anything about this game. What he even talking about??? ScottJund: This was a good discussion. Scott's comment section: Tru's a clout chaser and a brainlet. Tru's Chat and Comments: This was amazing, lets do this again. Such a good discussion. I would make a duality of man type of comment about this.. but honestly, I can't with his community anymore. It's actively sabotaging itself.
Yeah it is a little confusing, I'm not sure where it's come from because it's not as if disagreeing with Otz is some unforgivable sin. I mostly watch Otz so I saw those comments first and I thought "OK maybe it's because Tru3 is being a bit of a baby or something", but no. It is legit just unwarranted hate
@@spartansouls935 If you paid attention to the live stream comments and other stuff on Otz and ScottJunds video. It's just random hate for Tru. Invalidating his argument, claiming he's a clout chaser etc.
Yeah, I'm not even sure why he didn't have a comeback for that. It's easily explained by the fact that Nurse is the hardest to learn, so baby nurses drag down the average. Otz is usually so on point it was kinda disappointing that he missed a few open goals here.
This is cool to see. I have been watching you ever since I hit green ranks around when Curtain Call dropped. Decided to type in "rank 1 DbD killers" on YT back in the day and found you. I also found Otz over time. I haven't been playing much lately as I don't like the direction the Devs are taking the game. But you two sort of "collaborating" and talking about the game and wanting what's best for it sort of gives me hope. Keep on keeping on, good stuff.
They both had some very solid arguments during this debate.. but I did find it rather annoying that Otz would just interrupt Tru3 by speaking over him instead of letting him say his part. Perhaps if there's another debate, both of you get to ask questions and both actually have the chance to speak rather than it being so one-sided.
The argument is this: Tru is arguing that camping and tunnelling is unfun and unhealthy for the game. Otz is arguing that they are legitimate strategies and that a killer shouldn't have to go out of their way to go for "hooks" instead of kills. Tru is also arguing that if the game/MMR was based on HOOKS and not kills it would result in more fun gameplay. Both are correct. Otz is correct, those strategies DO work really well for getting kills, but that's also part of the problem. After all, this game is based on community, and DBD has an extremely toxic community, honestly so much so that it has pushed MANY people away from the game. If the community leaves, the game dies. If the community doesn't want to play anymore because every game is a campfest/slugfest/tunnelfest, the game dies. Tru seems to be arguing for fun, while otz seems to be arguing for killer efficiency/choice. These are the points. (IMO) The main flaw in otz's argument, mainly when he says "Survivors can protect other survivors from being tunneled" is that that exact statement is false. If a killer wants to tunnel 1 survivor, they can literally ignore other survivors running in front of them and go after the one. If the killer wants to tunnel, there is NOTHING the other survivors can do about it.
technically you can body block the killer and flash light spam with a coordinated chain. I think true is focusing too hard on the chase. Not every survivor / killer plays for the chase. There are literally survivors that do full hide builds to avoid being chase and just m1 spam. Similar, there are people who would care more about the macro aspects of the game vses the micro aspect of the game. IE: Giving up time to cleanse a totem vs m1 a gen as opposed to "I need to do this thing in this moment." which is also a legitimate play style. Also someone said something about chess, chess is not balance. it's favored for white because they go first.
Otz's point is NOT that killers should go for kills or endorsing tunneling/camping. Otz point is that, at the current state of the game, if you play killer not camping nor tunneling, the hooks and kills are pretty much tied together as they should (3 to 1, 12 hooks to 4 kills). The situation where you get 1 hook = 1 kill is a rare occasion for killers that play in good sports (like a Trapper snowball after good prep, which should not be considered toxic). This happens more often when they play really toxic as in camping/slugging or if the survivor dc or give up on hook. So in the end they both are going for the "have fun and don't be an d*ck" approach, but with different takes. And the point that you said its flawed about survivors protecting each other only applies if you're talking about the average survivors going solo q. True even recognizes that a high level survivor teamplay is undefeatable by any killer (and as you can see in tournaments). If you tunnel or camp a good team, you may get 1 kill and lose the game. To me, the breaking point of the "player behaviour balance" is the survs teamplay. I'm with True as a "kindred" kind of guy because this helps you decide how the team should take action together in basically one of the most crucial moments, the (un)hooking. And I agree that hooks should be more the focus of gameplay, but then the buffs/nerfs should be applied in game, not outside in the pip/rank/mmr system. Some people would just play toxic and dont care if they lose a rank or two. Things like: - Killer camping? the hook stage timer slows/stops based on distance. - Got 1 hook for each survivor? get info on survivors or the get a debuff on next gens/totems/healing they do. - Survivor doing no objectives hidding? reveal temporarily (but not the crows thing that only works in afk). - Got a protection hit? get a buff in healing or next unhook. and so on, just some rough ideas... many of this things are implemented as perks (and sometimes really poorly) but they could be in base game to keep it moving. As both came to a conclusion, this small tests in PTBs would be really nice for the game and players.
@@Takkunda The chess analogy is bad. The advantage to white is very small from starting first. If the advantage were large then top players would never lose when playing white. But the game IS about the chase. If a survivor has a "stealth" build then all they are doing is putting more burden on their teammates. All 4 survivors need to take time being chased if they want to win against a good killer. If 1 survivor hides, the team WILL lose. I mean, if the game isn't about the chase, then what is it? Holding M1 on a gen? That's a pretty boring game. If a good survivor team wants to win, all 4 survivors need to be decent in a chase, and by decent I mean "not going down in 4 seconds." My analogy is checkers or tick tack toe. These games are "solved" meaning that the person going first can win EVERY TIME if they follow a particular strategy. I equate this with camping and tunneling. Will they win or draw? Yes. Is it fun? No. Does it make for a fun game? No.
@@unoPlox Yes, I agree, otz is not directly endorsing camping/tunneling, and I never said as such. He is, however, saying that those strategies work. There are multiple comments from him saying "Getting one person out of the game early is a very good strategy." And yes, I agree, that for killers who play decent, hooks should be proportional with kills. But the problem is toxic killers. Toxic killers throw the balance of this off. Otz is ignoring the contribution of toxic killers, while tru is focusing mainly on them. (EDIT: It's not JUST toxic killers, it's also killers who just want to "win at all costs, even at the cost of having fun.") Tru is saying "These strategies are SO effective that they need to be removed or else the game will become a campfest/slugfest/tunnelfest." If someone WANTS to win, be honest, all they have to do is tunnel one person out of the game before anyone else. They don't have to camp. The best strategy to win is to hook someone, wait for them to be unhooked (maybe look for another survivor nearby), then tunnel them before they're healed, and hook them again, then do that one more time and suddenly you're at 3 survivors with maybe 1 gen done. There's no way the survivors will win at that point. (EDIT: And the survivors can do NOTHING to prevent this. The killer can literally run past other survivors to tunnel this one survivor. Even if another survivor takes a hit, that does nothing but give the killer game momentum. Gens aren't being done, survivors are losing health states. All to prevent the killer from playing like an ass.) THAT is currently the best strategy of the game. And tru is saying that THAT is a problem. THAT is tru's argument. Otz seems (IMO) to be ignoring that and focusing on decent killers who aren't toxic. You are right, OTZ is correct that if a killer plays decently the number of kills will be proportional to the number of hooks, but not everybody plays decently. Tru is arguing against toxicity, otz is arguing that hooks is proportional to kills for decent killers. They're not even on the same wavelength. Otz thinks tru is saying "every killer must get 12 hooks to win" when in reality tru is saying "We should incentivize killers to go for more hooks so the game is fun and not boring. We don't REQUIRE them to get more hooks, we just heavily incentivize them to do so, and punish them if they go for unfun game strategies like tunneling/camping." If it's done right, we won't even have to punish them for doing those strategies because they'll lose if they try. EDIT: Yes, basically all the suggestions you said are ideas I've had as well. For the record, I was really confused by this entire argument as I never saw them arguing about the same thing. They weren't IN the same argument. As pointed out in the last paragraph above.
One thing I feel wasn’t mentioned in this video is the situational awareness that a killer needs to have to split pressure on survivors. Otz being a trapper main I feel has learned to play the game in a catch up sort of way. Playing from behind because of the trap setup phase forces him to think about where all the survivors are. Then using his snowball potential as a killer to capitalize on the mistakes of the survivors to win the game. I don’t feel he is outright tunneling a survivor to make it a 3v1 I feel like he is only taking opportunities he is faced with and outplaying the Survivors.The proposed idea of slowing game progression to allow for 12 chases, downs, and hooks per game by the killer take out the variable of situational awareness and changes it to a structured game where the survivors essentially work on gens until it’s their turn to be chased and then downed 3 times.
This was a great discussion, I'm glad it was approached as something that is meant to make the game better instead of a "my playstyle vs the other playstyle" thing. Good content here.
I hate the idea that both of their povs are so linear like its HOOKS vs Kills. and true healthy way for the game to go thats motivates different playstyles is to find a good balance. meaning that balancing a win strat that combines hooks and kills in combination. it doesn't have to be one or the other
@@jaycemcqueen306 ye but they are having the debate because they want to try to push the game into a healthier standing. having this type of mentality wont do that
God dammit I didn't get the whole thing lol ill upload part 2 today!
Im waiting for it
HIRRY PLEASE
MORE!
Hello :)
thanks, I enjoyed hearing your opinions in an healthy debate
An actual intelligent conversation about dbd. The devs are going to nerf this video
they’ll nerf it after 2 years of complaining once they start losing money
@@lolololololololololoololol all they do is win win win
Nerfed Truetalent's speech! "True now can't speak as we feel it was over used 99% of the time"
Otzdarva now no longer has any arms. "We feel he was winning to much so we took away his arms and hands. We feel this will balance the game fairly for survivors running around the cowshed in a 1v1 vs Otz"
Games are games. Swf break the game
"the devs are going to nerf this vid" ahahahahaahah. good one
Jokes on both of you, a real win is when you still have 5 coup de grace stacks left by the time the last survivor runs out the exit gate
Nah bro, 8 stacks of STBFL is the way!
Funny of you to not consider the chad MoM users who get 3 stacks. That's a true victory
The real Win is keeping your ruin active until the end
How do u win if all survivors escape through the exit gate what
@@hughgrection9938 Are you joking?
This is a good discussion, more shit like this in dbd community.
true none of these takes are wrong or in bad faith
No one in the community will ever talk like this besides personalities like True and Otz. It's way too toxic and biased to be taken seriously. Just look at Otz's video on his channel and his comments during the live stream portion. Nothing but toxic remarks against Tru. Attempting to invalidate his argument with little to no evidence aside from "Well I said so".
@@OtsdarvaOS I saw it, he strawmaned his arguments but then tru3 did that in his stream too so this discussion hopefully helped them understand there positions
@@OtsdarvaOS I think the loudest people so to speak are literally children/teenagers. The rest of us can acknowledge that it was a much better and respectful debate the US presidential ones
@Tatsumaki Simp listen to it without chat and it's perfect
"When the two smartest kids get different answers"
and that’s the problem :( we don’t want opinions from them we want the facts we have now to change them like the mmr systems and survivors shouldn’t be able to win 1v1 but delay it at least people don’t like it and get hurt because they think it’s freaking for honor or MK to 1v1 a killer your the rat and the killer is cat and both of you are trapped in the same place
@@hunteriq8i45 if the killer is the cat, shouldnt they not feel/be trapped as you said? Also the rest of what you said was pretty much indecipherable for my brain cause as of now ive gone without sleep for almost 48 hours. Also, we should want their opinions. Cause there are no facts, or at least reliable ones. I'm just going to leave this quote for ya, "Data shows nurse is the weakest killer"
32:06 not trying to start anything, but this response was such a "gotcha" moment XD
This really boils down to "There is no win condition for the game. Therefore we are making up our own win conditions. Our person win conditions are different."
Yep, which is why I felt the hooks vs kills debate wasn't too necessary to have. I do think it was a healthy discussion overall with a mix of different topics, and it could bring both communities together, but at the end of the day, the win condition is up to the player.
Literally.
It doesn't help that the win condition in the emblem system has no idea what the hell it wants a lot of the times. 4k? Brutal. 10 hooks? Brutal. 2k? Brutal or entity displeased.
That's fine, just don't go saying that anyone playing the game and not basing it around your ideas is wrong and hurting the game, which is nonsense.
The Scott Jund approach, and it makes sense though the discussion is still an interesting watch and I'd love to hear more of it, especially if the devs were to get involved (highly doubt sadly)
I'm subscribed to both and always credit both as to why I've improved drastically throughout the game, playing and empathizing with both sides. I hadn't commented on this situation yet and I'm glad I didn't, would much rather watch them debate civilly instead of having a comment of mine being misunderstood and thrown in with the rest of the unnecessary white knighting drama.
Appreciate these two, for their style of play and the fact that they care this much about the game to try and push it towards it's true potential.
Same here, i play the game since like 3 weeks, I hit violet rank yesterday on killer
Who da tf are you??
@@thatguyleo2246 That's no way to speak to your father.
Both are dbd legends together they are stronger! All this is against devs ...it's the devs that should be talking about game fix
Same funny thing is I haven't played much core game just mobile and still have taken what I've learned from the both of them and figured out my own way of doing it on mobile
Tru3 and Otz spitting out fire ideas:
DBD Devs: "WRITE THAT DOWN, WRITE THAT DOWN"
What the dev has written down: The~
More like "Write that down then do the opposite"
im sure they don't write anything there
More like the opposite.
It's not april first yet
SHOWDOWN OF THE AGES
Jokes aside, appreciate you both acting civil and engaging in an intelligent conversation.
Kind of sad how all the top comments aren't acknowledging how amazing this is for dbd and for the community itself. Arguably 2 biggest killer content creators having a healthy discussion for the game, fog whispers at that! If they worked together they can have a lot better chance at communicating with the devs.
@G B yeah meat plant is fuking stupid with all those pallets everywhere ridiculous
I'd argue Monto is up there as well
@@cant_handle_deeznuts yea but he hardly talks about balance and game health
Yup, and this is the first convo/debate. It was a bit all over because they're trying to touch on a lot. If they have more discussions, they'd improve their focus and probably be able to nail down different things that could really help the game!
As a professional game designer, we never (never) look at average statistics. That would be idiocy for the general health of the game. Especially in a PvP experience. We segment statistics and ensure the ‘meta’ game experience is healthy without hurting new players. You hit the nail on the head here.
Tell that to R6 devs
The DBD devs need to realize this..
So do you feel old ruin was hurting new players?? Cause the devs change it cause they felt like it was troubling for new players🤣 All they had to do was hit a great skill check.
@@anim3z4u I think old ruin was fine. While hitting great skill checks even after hundreds of hours I dont think is a reliable option. The regression wasn't that horrible and you could still power through it. There are tons of times that you go ages without even getting a skillcheck. Alongside its a hex perk so it can easily be completely removed from the game. Which is a who other tangent I have regarding the fact I think it is ridiculous that survivors have the ability to COMPLETELY remove a killers perk(or multiple) from the game
@@anim3z4u yes the old ruin was definitely a deterrent for new players not everyone has good reaction times
RESPECT TO BOTH, they have both done alot for the community.
kudos to you guys for doing this so professionally
one of the MOST civil conversations ive ever seen thank you both guys and keep up the good work I always enjoy watching you both and really enjoy the civil discussion between streamers that doesnt devolve into name calling and rage.
Agrees both are wholesome!
We need more things like that.
@Chuck Finley Agreed completely. A little more on Otz side since I like his points a little better, but I felt like tru3 didn’t really get a chance to fully explain his points. Otz was respectful of course, but something just felt like Otz got to speak the most and guide where the conversation went.
Is it just me, or do they both have pretty good points? I've sat here and said, "He's got a point" to things literally both of them have said.
That's the sign of a worthwhile debate, both people should explain to the other why they think the way they do. Was a nice watch.
Sadly what this also shows is.. the way the game is designed, they gave both extremes, and regardless of which is chosen, the game will inherently have an issue. If you go with Otz idea, slugging becomes a lot stronger, securing 1 hook kills being the focus, but with Tru3, the person who gets hooked will try their BEST to get in your way, it promotes the toxic clicky clicky flashlight, trying to drag them away from fresh hook teammates.
real rough state the games in, and even the big guys don't have the perfect answer, nobody does.
They're both amazing reps for the game health(:
@@KumaNicol Very much agree with that. I've seen more toxic players in Dbd, both sides that is, than I have for nearly anything else I've seen. It seems, in my opinion, that this game brings out the worst in people. Which, imo, is probably why there are so many problems. On one side, you have toxic survivors that whine and complain and blame the killer, or even the game, for mistakes they themselves made, or even attempt to make SURE that the killer has no fun, and on the other you have crybaby killers that can't man up and accept the fact that sometimes you just get out played, and ALSO want survivors to not have fun. But at the same time, both Otz and Tru3 want what they believe is best for the game. But the thing is, what someone believes is best for the game isn't always what actually IS best for the game. For example, my personal belief is that smaller map sizes would help balance things a lot more. Killers won't have enormous amounts of time wasted just crossing the map to check a gen(which may, or may not, even have a survivor in it) while also not increasing time to finish a gen, so survivors aren't sitting on them for 20 minutes trying to just not get killed. Regardless of who ends up having the better idea, or what gets implemented, I still hope that the game health takes enough priority in the dev's minds that the biggest problems with the game get fixed, and I'll return to playing again. But, until then, here I sit. Waiting for the update that brings me back in to come.
I've seen people literally shame eachother, and instigate.. for why?
It is not just you. Only fanboys have a problem with this they have good points in everything.
Any plans for a rap battle with otz. I would definitely pay to watch that.
Both are Dropping them Bars!
Otz tru3 party all the time party all the time party allll the timeeeeee
So they just give top comment to anyone nowadays huh
Fungoose too
@@hughgrection9938 ez comment what can I say. It runs in the blood. Oni mains rise up
gg wp lads. nice to see this, long overdue.
These discussions are healthy for dbd and the community. Please do this more.
A weekly Otz & True discussion would be really good to see, just how each others points on improvements and gripes change. (perhaps monthly is a bit more realistic). Make some lists and topics for a video discussion/discussions.
At the least, after updates, a discussion about each others thoughts between you two would be a great addition to the communities insight from two very dedicated players.
So polite to each other. I'm glad you guys decided to get onto dealing with this stuff as soon as you guys could to stop the drama and to have a very good discussion about dbd.
1v1 cowshed when?
8:07 "The statistics say nurse is the worst killer"
I felt that, the stats the devs have are utter trash.
Shes just hard to learn compared to other killers
@@marcoreyes1203 right, but thats the point. she is the strongest killer in the game, but stats would tell you shes trash lol
@@bradbrewer3825 Freddy best killer btw, before Freddy was in the game that was Trapper.
But yeah nurse just like spirit are very strong killers but they are hard to master.
And, which is kind of the reason they are so strong, they do not rely on the survivors mistakes, they rely on you being good with them, on top of out smarting the survivor.
Unlike most killers, if you don't play those 2 well and you go against a good survivor, you will never get that person.
@@shion126 yes, thats more or less what im saying. once the person knows how to properly utilize her blinks its a gg. 95% of the time, even a good 4 man isnt doing much against a nurse
@@shion126 trapper was the best killer in the game before freddie? How so?
When is the 1v1 on rust?
Love you both just a joke
@@unopposedrob505 Not Joking.
You mean the 1v1 on cowshed?
@@thegwe5931 otz with his drip jacket and tru3 with his drip cap
Id even watch a minecraft 1v1
I'm nerding out right now. This is what I was waiting for. Two of my fav streamers discussing dbd!
I think that True said it best in some of his other videos, the game counts on newer players who will make a lot of mistakes. But when you take on the upper echelon of survivors (oftentimes SWF), their ability to abuse the meta and generators leaves the killer to play in a way that is very dry. Against a good SWF, three generators will be done before a trapper sets up. It takes away from varying gameplay styles because it’s a massive sweaty game. If anything, in my opinion, the developers should divide SWF from Solos better. Depending on the size of the SWF group, maybe the killer can get certain buffs to make the game more balanced. On a normal Solos game, there is more diversity of gameplay styles as it is.
Scott Jund has a pretty solid video tackling this problem. He basically suggests improving info/comms for survivors to make the solo-q experience better without strengthening SWFs.
How do you separate people on coms (which is what you're referring to when you say SWF) from people who just want to play together without coms?
I like to play with my friends, but we don't use coms. Should we be penalized even though we have no advantage over a solo queue?
@@reeepingk it depends on what rank you are, are you winning games all the time. but you also know going into the game how your mates play. you dont even know if the svrs in solo q are even english or not.
@@reeepingk you also have to realise a game cant make loads of matchmaking. it would basically be killer vs swf (no comms) swf(with comms) swf (1,2,3,4) (with or without comms) and if they add in solo q comms it would be even bigger. eventually you have to change with the game not the game with you. if you guys swf and dont comm and lose due to it thats ur fault. alll your advantages are there. the game cant tell and neither should it need to. to somehow change a game around the fact you fail. or decide to not use the advantages bestowed upon you
Maybe if Trapper had a few traps automatically set at the start (like in front of pallets. SO that way you save time and can start the game doing chases.
This game sounds impossible to balance after listening to both of you for a while.
It’s an asymmetrical 4v1 game it is impossible to balance. If you balance around the highest level like tru seems to want, then the 85-90% of the player base that’s casual solo players will stop playing. But if you balance around having the newer players having fun, the older players would leave, and the newer ones would leave once they get more game time. It’s just not possible
@Chuck Finley no sadly it isn't possible to balance an Asymmetrical game that is almost literally the point of the genre Asymmetrical. So I mean that is the start of why that's wrong and a game that has set up a system as it is and won't be changed cuz BHVR has little to work with to make even remotely balanced
@Chuck Finley just because you move first it doesn't mean anything. In chess it is about who plays strategically better.
@Chuck Finley Finally someone that watched the entire video!
@Chuck Finley Thats not what asymmetrical means. In an asymmetrical game both sides play different games with different mechanics and objektives. Chess is not asymmetrical since both players got the same goal and ways to achieve it
Both of them need to be involved with the devs, help them with updates and new chapters and what not, there ideas have potential to make the game so much better.
Aint gonna happen since the dev's have developed a strong ego over time, someone gave a sweet template of a proposed UI (beautiful btw) and the dev's didn't give a sh7t they changed the UI to their specifications to shush up the whiney consumer's. Can't wait till a game similar and WAY better than DBD pop's up, that's going to be a rude awakening for them.
Exactly
@@darthhavokk701 yeah, if the devs want this to be a "party game" its not gonna last long, they need to cater more towards comp I feel. But I have no faith in the devs whatsoever
@iiYonko but party games don't last, and I mean like I don't really trust the devs with DBD's future, I think they chase people away from the game instead of towards. And its amazing that TRu3 and otz care more than the devs.
@iiYonko very true, but as fast as they gain players they lose them, u want to keep your player base high and not drive people AWAY from the game. if they made the game a little more competitive there might be more people who want to play in tournaments. And then the game will be more popular, and when u have enough players u make a comp and a casual mode
This debate is sponsored by Toxic Fandom. The #1 brain cell loss stimulant on the planet.
Damn🤣
“Debate by Daylight”
Most Anticipated debate for me 🤩 Great one guys 👏🏼 Much respect for you both 🙌🏼
OTZ and TRU3 both should be helping devs with ideas... together these streamers are stronger together. The main problem is the devs!
Very respect for both true and Otz. More people need to debate like this. Completely hearing others points and communication is key. Props to both of you fine gentlemen
When the 2 smartest kids in class go at it
Yes both are very very smart and it shows in their gameplays against survivors . There's a big reason why they are top popular streamers.
@@EVILAKUMA I rarely see Otz play survivor.
@@Budd631 he said against survivors, not as survivors
I just seen someone say, camping should slowdown dying speed on hook. That's an amazing idea 💡
That’s a coincidence I just said that In a discussion post but i think this would help the game especially since it should be about skill and not cheap shots
the counter to that is one survivor could just force the killer to stay at the hook and then the other 2 just slam gens
@@thesleeper1775 one survivor cant force killer to stay at the hook... theyre going down
Yess! rework
Camaraderie in return...
@@esbluetheprototype you can easily loop near most hooks. Apart from one's out in the open, the others are always near a couple loops. Even a minute of looping while other person still is losing no time on phase one is a major benefit for survs.
Man this is the least toxic game of league I have ever seen
Brilliant to hear 2 people having a mature discussion.
It's the clown from dead rising 😯
Adam bro
Favouring Hooks vs Kills is just Good Logic for the Health of the Game.
And if 12 hooking would be possible easily killers who are not nice got unfair advantage.
@Harry Beckenbauer I mean If killers get buffed to achieve 12 hooks in every game, killers who play for kills and 4 hooking can get esiar games and on the survivor-side it would be fustrating to deal with these players.
The killers are there to kill the survivors and the survivors are supposed to try and escape. Killers are supposed to try and chase survivors to get more points so they can rank up and obviously getting a few hooks a game is good. But saying prioritizing hooks over kills is just plain stupid. Getting 8 hooks but all survivors escape is just a loss like they failed the objective to kill survivors.
Also the killers who camp and slug are already penalised cause they dont earn as many points and killers who consistently do that dont make it to red ranks lol
@@bucket77 I’ve seen plenty of red rank killers that face camp, proxy camp ppl on hook. It works well against ppl not on comms because they can’t just go “I’m going for the trade” while 2 ppl keep working on gens. You’re lucky to have one survivor that stays on gens when a killer face camps a non swf.
The day tru showed everyone he is the person he always says he is, well done👏.
They're both correct, in every almost every aspect.
Very true.
But they are arguing fundamentally different things. Hence why they can both be correct. Tru is saying "We need in incentivize more hooks instead of kills" Otz is saying "for decent killers, they already get lots of hooks." Tru's argument is combating toxicity, Otz's argument is... saying that's already true?
Very good discussion, both were able to get their views expressed perfectly. I think tru3 is onto something, structuring the game to incentivize more hooks and more chases. Imo
Now this is something I can get behind
That's what he said...
I’m telling you DBD developers need to hire both of you guys,Both know how to help make the game better and maybe even sometimes more fun
Imagine if the devs played this game to the point that they could have conversations like this
This is worth watching than Deathbattle/Screwattack.
At least we can get the right answer here lol
Great interview otz.
You know what I noticed the difference between your fanbase and the other streamers is in your comment section no one seems to be shitting on any other content creator. But in theirs I see you are getting talked bad about alot and I'm honestly suprised. I didn't even know you were hated that badly apparently. Idk why there is so much toxicity towards you lol. Been watching you since fighting game stuff btw.
I've watched other dbd streamers but I enjoy true's stream a lot more because of that reason
everytime i mention that hes my favorite creator, people talk trash about that idea and him as a whole. never understood why🤷🏻♂️
Yeah, that's because of the pool size. Dogma is a byproduct of a large sample size, and Tru3's channel is exclusively made up of clips from his Twitch. So less people watch. I highly doubt it would 100% down the board.
Whatever you do, don't mention Tru3 on reddit. Seemingly absolutely everybody hates him on there and don't you dare ask for a reason. The mental gymnastics, people are willing to perform after that, is more impressive than the paralympics tbh...
@@PichDextro lmfao when I saw a dude mention Tru3 on a reddit post they start talking shit like hell I was like damn "what happen to humanity".
Damn Otz made it feel like an
Interrogation or an interview he was the one asking the question
He's a psychology major so i guess that makes sense
I felt the same way
"Hello this is Otz, and I will be asking the questions today"
OTZ: "no survivor team is that powerful"
Also OTZ: "if survivors are playing well, there isn't much the killer can do".
One is a general statement towards survivors you face in the game considering the fact that True said that killers could do nothing at all.
The second one is specific about the cases where survivors have a ton of synergy where the average killer didnt prepare for it.
2 different statements in 2 different contexts. Context matters.
I don't know why you guys are so but hurt.
I've criticized True many times, and now I'm criticizing OTZ, who btw, used to be one of my favorite streamers until he started sugarcoating all the BS the devs throw at us.
Seriously, this mentality of just pandering the Devs is what brought this game to this shit show that has been for the past months.
No other community would accept the latests patches, and specially the way they threat and censor their community on the forums.
@@HurDurTankGoVRROOM which point? The entire video OTZ spends time arguing that some things in the killer side might be opressibe, just to imediatelly say that is survivors' own fault cause their not playing well. Not to mention the extreme examples he uses.
I love that you guys did this. You, Otz and Jund should Colab more often honestly.
My bad about the interruption with my top tip of the day, by the way. Horrible timing.
That had me lmao! Perfect timing imo
So much passion between you two for one game. Absolutely amazing. More of this in the future.
When I initially saw Otz's "Win" streak I was confused. What is "winning" in DBD? I can get Ruthless Killer without a kill sometimes.
Then I watched the first video and he had just set some rules up for it and I was perfectly ok with it.
I can see where Tru is coming from with the titles being a bit misleading because most people may not look into it any deeper than surface level.
Thanks Tru. I watch both of you and have learned a ton.
I've been looking forward for this. Also jumpscare at 13:30.
Thanks for the warning haha
Im soooo glad you guys actually got together to talk about this so people stop thinking there is beef between you guys, the fact people thought that there was is sad
Hate that my top 2 dbd streamers were clashing...
But to be fair I blame it on the community...
Both make perfectly reasonable arguments.
Got alot of respect for both you guys. I'm super late to the party but I'm enjoying it so far.
Two of my favorites in one video!
props to both of you for making the time and talking about issues in the game, we need more of this. I see both perspectives as correct in their own ways very difficult to make the game both fun and balanced for killer and survivor unfortunately, but with more discussion and ideas we may get closer to that end goal
Love you both, keep up the amazing work man!
I needed this. Two beasts at one of my favorite games, having a respectful, honest conversation. Just two guys talking. Its beautiful.
The sexual tension in this conversation 👀
There are 2 people in this world people who know sarcasm and people who don’t
Only you bro 😂
r/dbdgonewild
Now, they need to do a coop Darksouls run without taking damage...
silly discussion every killer main knows that 4 stacks of bbq is a win
hell yeah :p
he doesn't understand that at rank 20 killers own noobs? c'mon man.
Watched the whole vid and the Otz’s one. Don’t wanna put a shade on him yet Otz tends to prove his point with only his own experience which is not always valid for the whole community and game in general. Also appreciate that tru3 posts every single video from streams with no cuts while other streamers usually upload only successful ones. Kudos to you, tru3 and tks for civil conversation
It almost sounded like Otz agreed with the survivors are the more powerful role like 20 minutes in
Yeah, they know that before the stream started. We all do.
I feel like the things otz said about protection hits and going down isn't very common and not very consistent for example nurse no body blocking against her. Also what tru said is so very right going for the weakest is good for the killer but horrible for the survivor.
Holy.... I love Otz but honestly it was painful to watch as he was contradicting himself so hard. It even sounded like that Jordan Peterson interview with all those "So you are saying". It felt like he wanted to defend his content creation and tournament thingies rather than acknowledge that there is an issue.
What? Your reading way too much into this
What's the issue?
Love this, the DBD devs should listen to these two because they both have been playing for a long time and they can help this amazing game
This was a pretty good debate, and honestly probably one of the best things that have happened in the Dbd community. Although I do feel otz tried taking control of the conversation a lot of times and also cut Tru off a lot, could've been intentional or unintentional but it doesn't really matter since the whole debate was still a good thing Imo
Otz just wanted to disagree with everything geez lol. Love them both though
@Bubba101 Point of a debate isn't to disagree with everything the other person says, debates let people give their viewpoints on something and their reasons for that viewpoint.
@@ASR_13 He also cut True off multiple times and talked over him several times xD it was slightly frustrating but as I said, all in all, it was a good thing, and Tru handled it really well
@[JINX] Reaper I didn’t see it that way. They both talked over each other and let the other talk equally. It’s a part of a conversation sometimes it’s your turn to keep talking and sometimes you should just shut up and listen. I feel like both of them were very civilized and both knew their way around a conversation. I feel like you’re only noticing the times Otz did the talking and True shut up and not when it happened the other way around. All in all a great discussion and I wish that the devs would listen to people that actually understand their game and not their incredibly flawed statistics.
@Bubba101 Yes, but for a few of those he had to use very extreme cases and it turns out that he agreed with the point anyway which was just making it a pointless tangent. Ofc you can counter one argument with another and both of them did this multiple times (surprise surprise) but there were a few times where it leads to nothing
Honestly THANK YOU so much for having a discussion together. :D
I was lowkey scared of the whole situation just escalating... It's nice to see that "conflicting" sides of this game come together and just sit down and talk.
Also a collab between you two is just a cool thing to watch tbh, cant wait for part 2! :D
15:06
“So maybe make the survivor timer on the hook not one minute but a very long time-“
“YESS!!!!”
that had me crying lolol
I love that 2 respectful streamers can sit down and talk about differences they have. People dont understand you can respectfully have a debate, its not a bad thing to be or partialy be wrong.
I'm a big fan of Otz but I don't agree on most of his points on this debate. It's all good tough, civilized discussion it's always good.
Yeah, I think he don't consider a lot of solutions to big problems cause them are not perfect and leave a number of smaller problems,not that he should, just my impression in this and a few other videos.
This is pure gold.
DBD Devs can just pick this up and start working based on whats been discussed in the debate.
2 of the most prominent and respected DBD streamers coming together to have a proper Gentlemen's Debate based off of experience, stats and game improving suggestions.
I can’t believe I missed this stream😭😭
I would love a regular podcast like this! Maybe bring in more content creators like ScottJund, PaulieEsther etc. to get more opinions too!
I second this. I love discussions being had like what Otz and Tru3 has done. Bouncing ideas and discussing things about the game between members of the community like streamers and other content creators benefits us all I believe
Otz flaw in his logic is the fact that he’s trying to apply it at every level of the game. For example, I’d way rather killer be fun and fair for all the killers except trapper and hag if that means the other killers are good/even. I mean i know for a fact ppl are tired of going against nurse/freddy/spirit. You can’t defend every level of game to try and balance it. AND OBVIOUSLY there are a TON of trash players at every level due to the poor ranking system too, killer will always destroy the survivors at any rank unless they’re a swf.
Otz counters Tru3 by saying that we should balance the game for the majority of players and not exactly the top % at the beginning, but then brings up how “going for hooks” can be countered by top % players.
attacks?
@@tinalove4324 Maybe not the right word lol
LET'S FUCKING GO. 1:14:33 OF PURE DEBATE STYLE DBD CONTENT
Otzdarva clearly don't have the same vision of "fun" most of us have.
If mmr do go by hours, I'm a dead man. Over 1k hours and I'm still a noob
The game has been out for awhile so its ok at this point
I feel like this is like watching a US presidential debate where candidates skirt around direct questions and complain.
Tru and Otz: This was nice I liked it.
Otz chat: Tru's an idiot, and doesn't know anything about this game. What he even talking about???
ScottJund: This was a good discussion.
Scott's comment section: Tru's a clout chaser and a brainlet.
Tru's Chat and Comments: This was amazing, lets do this again. Such a good discussion.
I would make a duality of man type of comment about this.. but honestly, I can't with his community anymore. It's actively sabotaging itself.
Yeah it is a little confusing, I'm not sure where it's come from because it's not as if disagreeing with Otz is some unforgivable sin. I mostly watch Otz so I saw those comments first and I thought "OK maybe it's because Tru3 is being a bit of a baby or something", but no. It is legit just unwarranted hate
what.....
nah its not that bad, some people just like to meme.
@@spartansouls935 If you paid attention to the live stream comments and other stuff on Otz and ScottJunds video. It's just random hate for Tru. Invalidating his argument, claiming he's a clout chaser etc.
@@fellipecaldas1796 Doesn't look like meme's especially when Otz's mods need to tell people to be kind and respectful.
Watched the live debate and now watch again!
Otsdarva contradicted himself a lot of times
Best crossover event in recent memory, I'm glad both of these great guys got to discuss working towards a greater experience for everyone.
love otz but i'm totally with tru3 on this
Thank you both for the content sirs
True got had him fumbleing when he was like statistics show that nurse is the worst killer
Yeah, I'm not even sure why he didn't have a comeback for that. It's easily explained by the fact that Nurse is the hardest to learn, so baby nurses drag down the average. Otz is usually so on point it was kinda disappointing that he missed a few open goals here.
This is cool to see. I have been watching you ever since I hit green ranks around when Curtain Call dropped. Decided to type in "rank 1 DbD killers" on YT back in the day and found you. I also found Otz over time. I haven't been playing much lately as I don't like the direction the Devs are taking the game. But you two sort of "collaborating" and talking about the game and wanting what's best for it sort of gives me hope. Keep on keeping on, good stuff.
I like it how they’re having a debate and not shunning each other for different opinions lmao
They both had some very solid arguments during this debate.. but I did find it rather annoying that Otz would just interrupt Tru3 by speaking over him instead of letting him say his part. Perhaps if there's another debate, both of you get to ask questions and both actually have the chance to speak rather than it being so one-sided.
The argument is this: Tru is arguing that camping and tunnelling is unfun and unhealthy for the game. Otz is arguing that they are legitimate strategies and that a killer shouldn't have to go out of their way to go for "hooks" instead of kills. Tru is also arguing that if the game/MMR was based on HOOKS and not kills it would result in more fun gameplay. Both are correct. Otz is correct, those strategies DO work really well for getting kills, but that's also part of the problem. After all, this game is based on community, and DBD has an extremely toxic community, honestly so much so that it has pushed MANY people away from the game. If the community leaves, the game dies. If the community doesn't want to play anymore because every game is a campfest/slugfest/tunnelfest, the game dies. Tru seems to be arguing for fun, while otz seems to be arguing for killer efficiency/choice.
These are the points. (IMO)
The main flaw in otz's argument, mainly when he says "Survivors can protect other survivors from being tunneled" is that that exact statement is false. If a killer wants to tunnel 1 survivor, they can literally ignore other survivors running in front of them and go after the one. If the killer wants to tunnel, there is NOTHING the other survivors can do about it.
technically you can body block the killer and flash light spam with a coordinated chain.
I think true is focusing too hard on the chase. Not every survivor / killer plays for the chase. There are literally survivors that do full hide builds to avoid being chase and just m1 spam.
Similar, there are people who would care more about the macro aspects of the game vses the micro aspect of the game. IE: Giving up time to cleanse a totem vs m1 a gen as opposed to "I need to do this thing in this moment." which is also a legitimate play style.
Also someone said something about chess, chess is not balance. it's favored for white because they go first.
Otz's point is NOT that killers should go for kills or endorsing tunneling/camping. Otz point is that, at the current state of the game, if you play killer not camping nor tunneling, the hooks and kills are pretty much tied together as they should (3 to 1, 12 hooks to 4 kills).
The situation where you get 1 hook = 1 kill is a rare occasion for killers that play in good sports (like a Trapper snowball after good prep, which should not be considered toxic). This happens more often when they play really toxic as in camping/slugging or if the survivor dc or give up on hook. So in the end they both are going for the "have fun and don't be an d*ck" approach, but with different takes.
And the point that you said its flawed about survivors protecting each other only applies if you're talking about the average survivors going solo q. True even recognizes that a high level survivor teamplay is undefeatable by any killer (and as you can see in tournaments). If you tunnel or camp a good team, you may get 1 kill and lose the game.
To me, the breaking point of the "player behaviour balance" is the survs teamplay. I'm with True as a "kindred" kind of guy because this helps you decide how the team should take action together in basically one of the most crucial moments, the (un)hooking. And I agree that hooks should be more the focus of gameplay, but then the buffs/nerfs should be applied in game, not outside in the pip/rank/mmr system. Some people would just play toxic and dont care if they lose a rank or two.
Things like:
- Killer camping? the hook stage timer slows/stops based on distance.
- Got 1 hook for each survivor? get info on survivors or the get a debuff on next gens/totems/healing they do.
- Survivor doing no objectives hidding? reveal temporarily (but not the crows thing that only works in afk).
- Got a protection hit? get a buff in healing or next unhook.
and so on, just some rough ideas... many of this things are implemented as perks (and sometimes really poorly) but they could be in base game to keep it moving. As both came to a conclusion, this small tests in PTBs would be really nice for the game and players.
@@Takkunda The chess analogy is bad. The advantage to white is very small from starting first. If the advantage were large then top players would never lose when playing white.
But the game IS about the chase. If a survivor has a "stealth" build then all they are doing is putting more burden on their teammates. All 4 survivors need to take time being chased if they want to win against a good killer. If 1 survivor hides, the team WILL lose. I mean, if the game isn't about the chase, then what is it? Holding M1 on a gen? That's a pretty boring game. If a good survivor team wants to win, all 4 survivors need to be decent in a chase, and by decent I mean "not going down in 4 seconds."
My analogy is checkers or tick tack toe. These games are "solved" meaning that the person going first can win EVERY TIME if they follow a particular strategy. I equate this with camping and tunneling. Will they win or draw? Yes. Is it fun? No. Does it make for a fun game? No.
@@unoPlox Yes, I agree, otz is not directly endorsing camping/tunneling, and I never said as such. He is, however, saying that those strategies work. There are multiple comments from him saying "Getting one person out of the game early is a very good strategy." And yes, I agree, that for killers who play decent, hooks should be proportional with kills.
But the problem is toxic killers. Toxic killers throw the balance of this off. Otz is ignoring the contribution of toxic killers, while tru is focusing mainly on them. (EDIT: It's not JUST toxic killers, it's also killers who just want to "win at all costs, even at the cost of having fun.") Tru is saying "These strategies are SO effective that they need to be removed or else the game will become a campfest/slugfest/tunnelfest." If someone WANTS to win, be honest, all they have to do is tunnel one person out of the game before anyone else. They don't have to camp. The best strategy to win is to hook someone, wait for them to be unhooked (maybe look for another survivor nearby), then tunnel them before they're healed, and hook them again, then do that one more time and suddenly you're at 3 survivors with maybe 1 gen done. There's no way the survivors will win at that point. (EDIT: And the survivors can do NOTHING to prevent this. The killer can literally run past other survivors to tunnel this one survivor. Even if another survivor takes a hit, that does nothing but give the killer game momentum. Gens aren't being done, survivors are losing health states. All to prevent the killer from playing like an ass.)
THAT is currently the best strategy of the game. And tru is saying that THAT is a problem. THAT is tru's argument. Otz seems (IMO) to be ignoring that and focusing on decent killers who aren't toxic. You are right, OTZ is correct that if a killer plays decently the number of kills will be proportional to the number of hooks, but not everybody plays decently.
Tru is arguing against toxicity, otz is arguing that hooks is proportional to kills for decent killers. They're not even on the same wavelength. Otz thinks tru is saying "every killer must get 12 hooks to win" when in reality tru is saying "We should incentivize killers to go for more hooks so the game is fun and not boring. We don't REQUIRE them to get more hooks, we just heavily incentivize them to do so, and punish them if they go for unfun game strategies like tunneling/camping." If it's done right, we won't even have to punish them for doing those strategies because they'll lose if they try.
EDIT: Yes, basically all the suggestions you said are ideas I've had as well.
For the record, I was really confused by this entire argument as I never saw them arguing about the same thing. They weren't IN the same argument. As pointed out in the last paragraph above.
One thing I feel wasn’t mentioned in this video is the situational awareness that a killer needs to have to split pressure on survivors. Otz being a trapper main I feel has learned to play the game in a catch up sort of way. Playing from behind because of the trap setup phase forces him to think about where all the survivors are. Then using his snowball potential as a killer to capitalize on the mistakes of the survivors to win the game. I don’t feel he is outright tunneling a survivor to make it a 3v1 I feel like he is only taking opportunities he is faced with and outplaying the Survivors.The proposed idea of slowing game progression to allow for 12 chases, downs, and hooks per game by the killer take out the variable of situational awareness and changes it to a structured game where the survivors essentially work on gens until it’s their turn to be chased and then downed 3 times.
your ideal is noble true however some killers need to slug or trap around the hook lets all just have fun
This was a great discussion, I'm glad it was approached as something that is meant to make the game better instead of a "my playstyle vs the other playstyle" thing. Good content here.
I hate the idea that both of their povs are so linear like its HOOKS vs Kills. and true healthy way for the game to go thats motivates different playstyles is to find a good balance. meaning that balancing a win strat that combines hooks and kills in combination. it doesn't have to be one or the other
But that’s what the debate is about... not about the game overall
@@jaycemcqueen306 ye but they are having the debate because they want to try to push the game into a healthier standing. having this type of mentality wont do that
I have not seen a debate this spicy sense The Great Noed debacle between JRM and Yerv
Debate: Dead By Daylight
Game: League of Legends
ok
When a game relies on bad players you know there's a problem....