Transpennine Express Class 802
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
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Transpennine Express Class 802 bi-mode diesel multiple units will be instrumental in taking advantage of the Transpennine Route Upgrade which will see the route between Manchester and York electrified and will be able to take advantage of newly electrified sections whilst running on routes which have not yet been electrified
#Rail #transpennineexpress #Clas802
"IETs" 👀
once you've been on a stadler and seen what IC and bi mode trains should be in this decade, an IET will always look like a missed opportunity
Those Stadler Bi-Modes in Liverpool have been about as reliable as a chocolate teapot
Cracking in the chassis only occurred to a limited number of IET's due to the fact that originally those particular units were supposed to be all electric and then got switched to bi-mode in a last minute change. - problems of not delivering on the promise of OHLE installation. Shocker.
I thought the poor state of UK track was also a factor? Hitachi modelled the structure on much smoother rail geometry.
@@Rail_Focus If that had been the case, it's likely we would've seen problems on all variants but as it happens just the converted bi-mode units seemed to be the ones suffering the problems. The ones that were designed as bi-mode from the outset seemed not to have any problems.
The cracking was primarily seen on those trains as they were the first built, but as I understand it was a design problem with the suspension that was universal on the platform up to that point. The rectification program has meant other, newer units are far less likely to see those issues develop
Don't think I managed to watch this video before so thanks for publishing it. Good insight into the Class 802. Keep it up👍
Got one up to Leeds a few weeks ago as per usual sat in front coach and so quiet,no engine underneath, they are nice trains, and the seats are ok, pity a bout all the stains on them.
The IEPs do accelerate well compared to the HSTs but I would seriously welcome more padding on the seats. Cardiff to Paddington can be uncomfortable to say the least.
Imagine the 4hr trip from Liverpool to Glasgow , via Preston. I prefer making the longer journey by car to Wigan, and then Avanti to Glasgow.
Could imagine they wouldn't be especially comfortable, not sure if given the choice I'd prefer to drive though.
Went on a IET between London and Cardiff on GWR. jesus christ is there any suspension? you can feel every little jolt or switch in the track. and the seats felt were a joke - my local networkers were more comfortable
As one driver said to me, he doesn’t think they’ll last as long as the 225
Well they were a big improvement over the class 195s in terms of capacity - quite why we had to put up with those trains running on what should be inter city class routes between the cities of Northern England I do not know
Why did the manufacturers and operators decide that reducing padding and making seats hard (not firm) wad a good idea? When will they start to put back some comfort?
I believe the DfT have a major say in the specification of the seats. If you think IEP seats are hard - try a standard class seat on a Thameslink train. Horrid!
@johng5474 as Andrew says, the DfT seemed to micro manage the order to such an extent that even seat choices were taken out of the hands of train operators. The excuse was, it was to comply with fire regulations, but we've since learned this was a lie, as there are new trains which have seats with much more padding.
@@Rail_Focus It's weird because, normally, when given mock ups of vehicles etc to try out, we focus on fabrics, colours and decor more than what technology is driving and stopping the thing. The civil servant did sit down on the seats!
They heard that getting a rough ride from a Hitachi was popular these days...
It was probably to make standard class unbearable to sell more 1st class tickets! 🤣
Great video, but these AT300’s can not be compared to the iconic and still going in Scotland, HST. The HST revolutionised train travel in 1976 onwards. I remember them coming into service, shaving a whole hour off a Paddington-Swansea journey. The HST offered a then novel fixed formation Inter-City train with a Buffet/Restaurant car. The HST also saved many routes from further cuts or possible closures that were on the table in the mid 1970’s. HST’s offered a faster, more reliable and a more comfortable journey, thus seeing passenger numbers rise significantly on the major routes they served. In the 1970’s the HST was revolutionary. The AT300 is (to be polite) a very basic and in some cases, inadequate replacement for the HST. Seats are rock hard, the ride quality is poor in excess of 100mph (certainly on the GWR ones), no buffet cars (except LNER), troublesome under-floor engines (GWR ones regularly operate with at least one engine not working) and of course the cracks. GWR (more than LNER) have too many 5 car sets, which often results in short form trains and overcrowding. All in all, the AT300 (just my opinion based on 50+ years of UK train travel) is in no way an improvement for the passenger experience compared to the HST. I would certainly go as far as to say that they are a marked de-improvement considering how much these trains cost to procure.
Let's just say IETs have been transformation in their own way. Perhaps not for passengers, but operationally speaking.
@@Rail_Focus yes I agree with that statement, being that AT300 bi-mode trains offers the rail operators flexibility that previous inter-city trains could not offer, its just the passenger experience that needs improving, mainly the seats and for GWR, capacity issues 🙂👍🏽
Say what you want about these trains, the regular riders will tell you that they are better than the delayed, heavily overcrowded 3 carriage Class 185s they replaced and enabled TPE to double up the 185s into more chill 6 carriage services.
Indeed, many people forget they haven't just replaced HSTs, but have replaced other DMUs and have allowed operators to increase capacity.
I just wonder if the seats could be altered to have more padding in the cushions as this would be my main complaint. On the GWR ones ,I tried several second class examples and they were all lumpy as well, now. I had to use my padded jacket underneath my rear to mitigate against this most uncomfortable experience.
TfW's Class197s apparently use the same seat, but have more padding. So it must be possible to make them more comfortable, but if the DfT is willing to fund that is another question.
The seats are acceptable for up to 90 min I would say. Anything longer starts to become unpleasant, e.g., Leeds to Kings Cross is 135 min.
I can imagine the seats would start to become uncomfortable.
I wonder if Hitachi who built the Class 802 Nova 1 for TransPennine Express could build more extra Class 802s and for TransPennine Express to operate from Manchester Piccadilly and Liverpool Lime Street to Hartlepool, Sunderland and Scarborough using Class 802 Nova 1s.
Difficult to know. TPE will need more bi mode trains once the TRU is complete, but won't be ordering new trains until the end of the decade.
Why? You only need 1 seat.
There's also significant benefit of running 5+5 instead of 10 for maintenance other depot stuff
I think they look good externally. I’ve not had the “delight” in riding them but I have heard a lot about the quality of the seating. I wonder why we can’t have internal arrangements of trains like they have on continental long distance trains - they always seem to get luggage and bike storage right!
I don't understand why we can't get internal layouts right, but it probably has a lot to do with DfT micromanagement and penny pinching. I really do feel free GWR passengers, as it seems the interiors for their units are even worse. Let's hope East Midlands Railway gets it right
@@Rail_Focus To be fair to everyone, the UK loading gauge, due to our Victorian railway network is smaller than on most continental networks. It does make for a greater challenge in interior design to provide the features modern travellers require today.
Great video! Speaking of electrification, do you have any thoughts on the potential for a service along the line through Mossley Hill and West Allerton, likely a Merseyrail service from Lime Street to Ditton Junction, or even all the way to Warrington Bank Quay low-level?
On a similar note, do you have any thoughts on potentially widening the Lime Street cutting, or re-quadrupling the line between Edge Hill and Roby? No pressure to answer any of my silly questions :)
I believe the LCR have thought about operating services in a big loop, from Liverpool Lime St low level to Liverpool Lime St, via Chester and Halton Curve. But I don't think they're taking that proposal forward. It would be good for all Liverpool Stations to get a regular Merseyrail style service though and the 777s provide the best solution for this
In terms of expanding Lime St, I don't think it's possible, would require demolishing properties and a lot of rock cutting, which would be incredibly expensive. The best option to provide more capacity would be the proposed connection from Wapping Tunnel to the Northern Line, with Central station expanded.
@@Rail_Focus I've had a thought that Liverpool is connected to a few nearby cities; Chester and Southport via Merseyrail, and Huyton, St. Helens and Wigan through electrified City line services.
However, Widnes and Warrington are only accessed by diesel services in competition with express services down a congested, underserved and unreliable line (Liverpool to Warrington via Hough Green) - so my thought was why not: A) actually put the overhead lines between Lime Street and Ditton Junction to use, and B) fix the congestion down that railway line... by electrifying the Fiddlers Ferry line between Ditton Junction and Warrington Bank Quay, and run Merseyrail units (777s with pantographs) stopping at reopened stations along the route?
On the Wapping Tunnel issue: would it not be a similar level of work to bore out Wapping tunnel to be wide and tall enough for modern trains with OLE and to expand Central station as it would be to widen the Lime Street cutting?
Also, on widening the cutting, would it not just be easier to "tunnel" along the side of the cutting rather than widen the whole thing, creating a bore on each side of the cutting containing a track each? Would that work structurally?
They are not bad trains - just not very good. A huge missed opportunity and a downgrade from the HSTs. The seats on the GWR trains are really bad - if you are planning a long journey, over say half an hour then take a cushion. The ride can be jittery and bumpy. Other things are silly - blinds that are shared between two seats when curtains could be used, seats without windows, overly bright and as you mention poor accommodation for cycles (something the railways should encourage). The one plus point they can switch from diesel to electric and vice versa on the move.
I prefer these to 185s . An 802 also goes up to Edinburgh via the WCML once a day.
The seats on the 185s are better, but the Cummins engines are a bit noisy I find.
""I orded IEPs for my rail service, worst mistake of my life" dont be like him" - one of its critics
🤷
We want direct train from Scunthorpe to Manchester airport
👍
I don’t mind the IETs I preferred the HSTs and still prefer the IC225s but they could be worse do think it’s silly that EMRs auroras are 5 car instead of 7-8
The platforms at St P aren't that long, so they've designed them so they can fit two five car units (a ten car train) in the platform. If they went with a 7 car unit, they'd only be able to fit 7 cars at once.
@@chrisoddy8744 fair enough but then how did EMR and EMT manage with the 7 car Meridians and 8 Car HSTs?
Using multiples gives a certain amount of operational flexibility. I imagine the 7/8 car sets could only work on their own. So in theory they can provide more capacity during the peak.
@@Rail_Focus I guess yeah but no end of times I've been on MML during the middle of the day and the 5 Car Meridians from Sheffield are near full it would just make more sense imo to have 7 car sets as default the route seems to have the passenger numbers to justify it
@@Adam-pk2te at which point a ten car set becomes quite appealing, no? Get all the capacity of ten cars but the flexibility of using five car units
"HOW DARE YOU COMPARE THIS FILF TO ONE OF THE GREATS" - passenger who went on tpe 802 and got delayed by 4 decades
Tpe 802 Livery as the children call "fire" thought and the that can be said for all of tpe's colors
Calm down, no need to shout 😅
Only four decades? That’s pretty good
Terrible seats, supposedly borrowed from regional trains in Europe, suitable only for short journeys - maybe okay for an hour and a half to Huddersfield, but not for 5 1/2 hours to Edinburgh from Liverpool. Terrible ride quality, due to the design of the bogies. Yes, faster
acceleration and more seats than HST‘s but passenger comfort is several steps back from trains, designed 40+ years ago. No mention of on board catering for long distance services?
It's incredibly frustrating, made even more so by the fact that more comfortable seating options exist. Other than penny pinching I can't understand why such hard seats have been chosen. I believe TPE had a lot more freedom than GWR or LNER to choose the interior spec.
TPE probley did the better job with interor and layout with their IEP 800's But they are what they are and thats basical a cheap nasty product , TPE sould got six or 8 car formations to expand Bikes and lugage etc arfter all the sirvices go to airports and turist destnations as well as deal with some intencive commutor corridors . The 800 is not a game changer as in the way the intercity 125 was this realy did save BR and the intercity network from going the way of railways in Ireland and the USA goverments in the 1980 were desprate to get the albertross of rail off their backs and tax account . the 800 is a one trick ponny it can run as eletric or esial mostly as both , lets be frank GWR are running mostly on disal under the wires becoust of the power costs and most 800 struggel on east cost to keep to time as well as having engens adapted out spec...... and rember you also flying about with 3 tanks of fual under the train I am suprized that got a green light out of the H&S Ex.... sooner its all 25 kv the better then we can have some nice siemans railjets LOL
I don't think the AT3000s are cheap and nasty, Hitachi generally seem to make good trains. But I think DfT interference ultimately leads to poor choices being made and the bi-mode ability does come with drawbacks