On ya prime. Fighting the good fight. Reminds me of the Katt Williams bit about learning something from Flava Flav… you can’t judge a person by their blue haired cover.
There was so much rage in that chat. The instructor made a minor oversight with a mildly abrasive/time-wasting consequence, but you seriously can't sit there and genuinely believe that she's sitting at home in a comedically large chair letting out a mischievous cackle knowing a bunch of noobs are going to go open PRs on Express. 😂
Ya, Like any teacher or educator wouldn't know that 'telling someone with literally zero skills or understanding of the subject' would do exactly what you exampled and ignore your warnings because it made no sense to them.. nor would it.
When I was new to open source, I too got influenced by such videos and wanted to contribute to open source to get some experience. But till now I haven't contributed to any open source. I realised fixing typos is very insignificant contribution, I decided that first I will learn and make myself familiar with ecosystem, then I will start contribution. Till now I was only able to create issues in some projects that I use personally, I was able to create issue cuz I was facing them while using it. I participated in hactoberfest but didn't contribute to single project cuz I didn't found perfect project to contribute. I think before contributing to any open source project first you should use that project in your personal project and if you face any issue with dependency you are using then you should raise it and fix it if you can.
lul, this is why I forked my first project after I found out I wasn't going to be helpful to it (it was a mod for MC), and I took my own headaches to learn and do what I wanted with it. -- believe me, I would love to contribute ... but alot of the times others find issues before I do X}
at this point the only thing we should be teaching beginners is to only contribute by making original projects, teaming up with other beginners, and leaving the big projects alone
@@ThePrimeTimeagen honestly I feel like most of the response has been positive. Even the video you played here (which I hadn’t seen before LOL) seems to largely agree with me I guess I’ll make a vid on this tomorrow 😅
As an Indian, I apologize to the whole world for these things. Some RUclipsr giving out tips to undergrads to contribute to opensource like this and these n*tjobs following him like sheeps.
I stumbled across this channel and I'm blown away by the empathy shown by this dude. It would've been so easy to jump on the troll train and make this a blame game instead of throwing light to the fact that unfortunate situations happen.
It isn't empathy. It's just assuming the goodwill in someone until they give a reason not to. If people did this the world would be a whole lot different
I learnt a thing or two too, especially about how to try and find context, and try and make a level analysis about things, and this take was handled really well by Prime, really nuanced. Bravo. It was surprising educational. I might come back to this video to just re-learn how to be like this irl. Thank you for all the neat content you guys make, appreciate it ❤ And all three people I regularly watch in one place, ah, the stars have aligned.
Yes!! Seeing the chat continuously try to steer the event into a hate parade and try to point fingers was wild. Super proud of how he wasn't easily manipulated and kept his ground.
2:00 she literally says "don't actually do this, this is just an example" at one point edit: also says in the end "we shouldn't create any unnecessary pull requests, only meaningful ones"
She should know by now that the kids she is teaching to are in on it for money and have negligible aptitude for programming and open source otherwise. Should have used a dummy repo.
The problem with tutorials like these, is that students literally follow along, so you HAVE to say what not to do before you do the thing. It's very easy for extreme beginners to get lost in the sauce with stuff like that.
If you look at their repo in the video its a fork of express and obviously the students misunderstood or something and went to commit to the actual repo. Seems like some kind of misunderstanding and totally unfortunate
You're telling me that those learning to do basic git & github things like a PR on a singular file through the ultra polished Github UI.... wouldn't know to do their own repo when it was said? gasp.. shock, la horror
It was showing how to fork and make contributions. So they fork express, make a change, and then PR, but she says "Don't make stupid PRs. Just when you have made a useful contribution".
I am really happy to see how empathetic you are towards those who badly want job are unskilled but trying dead hard...you tried to assess the situation than rather assuming stuff...You're a 💎
I’m not going to watch through the entire original tutorial but I doubt it was necessary. You could make an empty express project in 2-3 commands and it would probably serve the exact same purpose. You could showcase forking a repo without open pull requests, or just an archived repo.
@@radomane Even better, she could've made her own generic project on Github (Express or not) and told her students to fork _that_ instead of Express, so even if they PR'ed the source instead of a fork she would have control.
I think it's more of a "curse of knowledge" style mistake. To people that know how this all works, showing a real Repo is kind of more useful to demonstrate that these are tools you can help build, but then to new people, they have just no damn clue what is going on.
This is almost literally an example of cargo culting - much like flying in cargo to a remote island, there are certain actions that go into creating good, useful PRs that can be superficially mimicked by people who want the fruits of the labour without knowing the intricacies of the actual work involved. The teachers may even be completely well intentioned and creating good useful courses, but a certain number of people listening don't realise just copying the actions isn't the actual important part.
I taught comp sci at an American university. The number of people that pass through but don't get it is surprising. Maybe the top 25% of the undergrads were worth hiring as programmers/designers. Blindly copying something was common among the lower ranks. We also had a lot of Indians in our masters program. Some were great, but there were a few cultural issues that ran hard into the American standards for code of conduct.
I am "contributing" to a project that is written in rust. So I can't write any code myself yet. (might eventually get there). But I have opened like 6 issues describing bugs I encounter with minimal repro steps. A few days later they get tagged and then maybe just sit for a while. Some of the issues I opened lead to new tests and fixes. The difficult part is to title your issue correctly, but that's a challenege I manage to solve. So 3-4 months later, when they release a new variant I am getting fewer errors in my project.
Yeah considering that it's almost useless lib like thousands of other popular js libraries. Just a bloaty wrapper for what's already in NodeJs, which itself is a total bloat.
I swear the same thing happened years ago to PyPI, where a book showed how to upload an example package, and then years and tons of empty example packages were uploaded by readers of the book, and PyPI had to set up a thing to funnel them off somewhere else, but I can't find any info about it now. Maybe it was another package manager.
One of the things I love about prime, that he can remember what it's like to be a regular guy struggling to do what everyone else is experience. he's made a follower out of me till the end. the fact he can do both be reasonable and show that he understands regular people, shows his emotional and general intelligence and that's rare in people these days. plus, he cracks me up every time lol Keep being you man, love your content. you're an inspiration!
Have you ever written instructions for something. Don't tell people what not to do. Some brains cannot process that NOT and will read those sections as what to do. It is wild when it is a safety warning and then you stop someone and they say "I don't know, that is what it said."
Had I done a video like this, I would not have even considered that, but makes sense now why in other videos the teachers have that kind of a separate repo - it gotta be crazy as an educator to say "This is how you do a PR, but remember to only make meaningful PRs" and then see your students do a ton of meaningless PRs.
apperantly that was the case, she did create a fork of the official repo for the students to goof around in but the students ended up on the official one
I don't really know the whole context but at least the twitter video had nothing to do with getting a job. What happened here was video person was showing how to create a pull request. The problem was "Ok guys this is the button you click to create a pull request. ...(20 seconds of talking)... Obviously don't click on this button since there is nothing useful in this pull reauest." The whole thing is irresponsible but not malicious
I think it was just an issue of "know your audience" at least as far as the video is concerned. It's possible it's part of a course that then also gave a "make a PR" assignment.
@@thekwoka4707might have done, but even if it did, it should specify a repository to do that. This is part of why the way github uses git is not something Linus Torvalds likes however.
I love that there are popular RUclipsrs that work to promote courtesy and trying to contextualize the experiences of others in their videos. Thanks for trying to share a more humanistic approach instead of hot takes.
The girl in the original video said explicitly to not open pointless PRs as they are annoying for the maintainers. She said to only make useful PRs that actually solve a problem. The problem here is that India is currently facing a problem of "too many" software developers. Every year over 300k engineers graduate, but only a select few get jobs. The others got their degree simply because there wasn't anything else they were passionate about. So, when they don't get a job through placements, they'll start trying these pointless hacks. This is what has happened here. They did not take the time to watch the entire video, saw the steps to open up PR, and started spamming.
I watched that video and understand the language, she has actually clearly said that you shouldn't do these useless PRs, she said we shouldn't do these only do when you have actually something valuable to add.
Thanks prime, you navigated this perfectly. As the saying goes, never ascribe to malice what can simply be attributed to incompetence. In this case, I wouldn't call it incompetence but maybe naivety or rather ignorance. None of these things are bad things, it's just that unfortunately the people involved don't have all of the proper context to understand what they're doing is potentially harmful. It doesn't matter where they're from or who they are, people make mistakes all the time.
@@thekwoka4707 that doesn't really make any sense by the way. Also, the instructor made that course like 5 months ago, what's happening now has very little to do with her content especially since she showed the proper way of making a PR which these people are not following.
Hey, just wanted to say Thank You prime. Recently, I completely gave up on coding and was ready to leave the coding world because of all this job search frustration but your videos show the passion of programming that I love. The way you talk about the complex stuff is amazing to look at, I saw that there is much more to learn than just plan old javascript. Your story of "meth to netflix" resonates with me because I love learning new stuff, never done drugs and hope to stay away but I seriously just want to learn about programming without all this job search stuff. Sorry for the rant, again Thank You Prime for all your time. Edit : Just saw the video and honestly this is embarrassing, I don't fully understand their code bases so I don't even think about doing it.
do hiring managers actually look at PRs/features/bugs fixed, or just the number of them? Imo part of the issue is the mindset of 'fake it till you make it'
@@sub-harmonik The ones who filter for the Hiring Managers X} seriously, I love people who honestly don't think that this doesn't come up in the whole public image search of you as a person.
If you're teaching a course like this, make your own bespoke example repo that people can freely nuke, please don't do this on atual existing projects that you don't own or maintain. It's an unfortunate mistake, yeah, but it could be easily avoided with basic foresight.
Thats why you a) have github as a mandatory chapter of a class in 2nd grade of college and b) make the students make a project on there so they can learn it
Joblessness in India, among new engineers, is so darn high they'd spam the heck out of anything should it promise the prospect of landing a job. ...and most colleges teach them sh*t, let alone the ethics and etiquette of open source.
Are they too dumb to realise that this will do the opposite of landing them a job? If I saw this on a potential employee's github profile I wouldn't want to hire them.
i was on Melkeys stream when Theo popped in chat and recommended he talk about it. i didnt wake up early enough to catch your stream, wish i woulda caught it.
It's really ironic tbh that this person who is thousands of miles away from India, and has little to no context of what actually happened is providing such an unbiased perspective and is trying to put himself into the shoes of an Indian fresher programmer.
It is her mistake!! Although there's a disclaimer at the end of her video it's completely their mistake because they attracted such a crowd in the first place. They attract people claiming that they'll get high paying jobs effortlessly by just completing their courses. And they just aggressively market their stupid courses to anyone.
A bit late to the party but ok. I'm a native hindi speaker and I don't think this is the source of the issue. BTW I am not affiliated with ApnaCollege in anyway shape or form. She said at one point "...we can do a pull request for our changes to the master branch but we won't because the changes we made are really useless. But generally this is how you make pull requests, if you, say, want to fix anything that is in the code(i.e master branch) or add a new feature. The original owner also limited us from doing unnecessary pull requests. We should not do any unnecessary pull requests and only do useful ones." Correct me if I am wrong but vindicating her for what others are doing seems a bit petty right ? I mean I get that there are a lot of grifters out there both in and out of coding so why use her as the punching bag ?
these are indian college freshers who don't have much exposure to computers before and just entered the college, took CS because of better career prospect and are strictly following that tutorial that channel "apna college" made and ended up following the last step that they were advised not to. They'll surely learn with time
I mean getting paid less then half the min wage working for 60hrs on avg, what prime described is an accurate picture of an "average" Indian Dev barely scraping by at the bottom of the barrel trying out anything that might give them a chance at getting better job. [although most of it I would consider is a skill issue] There are some cultural differences here, that to say the least are not looked highly upon by the rest of the world. Famous saying in India [Mandir khula nahi bhikari pehle aa gaye] pointing out to the people who made the pr for the sake of it and adding it to their resume.
@prime, She was instructing on how to make a PR, and to which branch, and the example she showed while making that PR, she admits is a very non-essential pull request. She is cautioning others from making unnecessary PRs
Assuming a bunch of students will follow instructions is insane. I'm taking an online class for college and out of 40 students only 15 showed up on the first zoom lecture. All of them were dropped.
Damn, another reason to like Primagen. Along with the memes and great charismatic streaming personality, this is a very levelheaded take. People on Twitter pretty much started attacking the creator accusing them as the inciter. As I understand, the creator didn't even imply contributing to opensource gets you jobs, instead it was just a generic git/github tutorial. People combined these themselves. And props to Primagen for being levelheaded and assessing the situation with reason despite chat trying to pull him into blind hate.
True. Although the creator may not have meant to teach doing PRs for a job, I have watched quite a few devs on RUclips saying how one can get a remote job without a CS degree by contributing to OSS. Maybe people who watched this were looking for tutorials to do so and ignored the instructions in the video.
20:47 This is actually way more important than you might think. Even body language isn't universal. When talking to people where you don't know where they come from: Keep in mind that whatever you try to do can be interpreted the exact opposite of that. For example where I come from when a discussion gets heated, we try to cool it down by especially speaking very formal and sitting upright to slightly leaning forwards. In other cultures that may be interpreted as being aggressive. In know from a country close by that they for example normally lay back to cool a heated discussion down. We would interpret that as an insult because we interpret that basically along the lines that you don't care about what we say. And they interpret out way as aggressive. So yeah, nice combination. Cross-cultural communication is hard and I would argue that it's one of the hardest thing you can end up doing on the regular.
What countries are those? I haven't noticed any of that in my country (key words: haven't noticed), if someone tries to cool down the discussion, they either redirect from the topic (often to the previous one or the next one), or say straight forward "let's stop here, we don't need to argue about this right now", the most body language thing is looking away as if you're uncomfortable, but that's only if you're not participating but want it to stop.
absolutely agree. it's even harder when the people you're trying to communicate with can barely speak your language. e.g., trying to work with Indian developers (in India) who barely speak english, and whose culture is very different than mine... it's doable but it takes time and conscious effort
The thing I dislike about current software is that there's so many people just doing it to get a job. Not to go all 'back in my day' but 10+ years ago when I went to university most people doing it just enjoyed it, it wasn't trendy or serious it was just a bunch of nerds. I just wanted to make video games and hack my teachers PC in school only after that did big tech become this crazy paying industry. The reason this is bad is that no one is making any new companies technology or businesses and just trying to become a cog in the machine which makes the whole thing worse because there's nowhere new opening to work.
Even though the instructor said not to actually create a PR on expressjs, it is really easy to make a mistake following their instructions and make an accidental PR. This could've been avoided by doing the demo on an example repository that they created.
Being a job grasshopper, sometime publicly available contributions DO help one get a proper assessment of their soft and hard skill. Since employer can't really demand someone to show code he worked on previous employment, and some of them rarely wanted to do cross reference. A public interaction (via PR, bug reports, etc) with well-established group is a good gauge on how you would work together within a team. Note that this works both ways, if one's contribution history is consistently low quality, it also make one be less desirable.
An open source project I hang around. One year a professor picked out the project and had the students to make commits. The bdfl had to get with the professor and kindly ask them to not lol
following tutorials with the video muted btw. There is more and more tech jobs in India I think, but it is kinda slower time for tech globally, so of course they get hit too. Bootcamps selling dreams of prosperity (also a global thing) after a 3 months course is a big contributor to this. While they saturated dev space, they moved on onto testing, saturated that field too and now they are focusing on courses for cybersec and devops, so brace yourselves.
One thing that a comment touched on is that a lot of times companies would treat you differently if you come from a more low income country, having to prove yourself a lot more than others. I live in south america and even after taking 2+ years of just studying and making 3-4 projects where id spend at least 2 months on each, i still had 0 people replying to my applications from outside of brazil. i would totally understand people doing prs if it meant that they would have a little bit more of an edge.
I have hit this issue a bit just being an American based in Dubai. I get jobs when people find me through experience, but not response to applications. I am pretty sure it's just filtering out the Dubai application immediately.
This whole thing, just reminds me of the Cargo Cult Mentality. It also is a lot like the Script kiddy issue we had in the 90s. Open Source Repos are Open and by that very nature they are going to have to deal with good and Bad PR's, Its an age old tale of people trying get ahead in life but looking for shortcuts.
it's a bit of miscommunication, she mentioned that this kind of PRs are useless do not do that and we know internet, internet did what it does, they did exactly that what she told not to🤣
I didnt learn git/github till i learnt the basics of a language started using at least 20 libraries/packages regularly. I havnt yet become a maintainer/contributer but i usually use the open source part to debug my applications
I did some minor spelling PRs and got "Contributor" badge in some big-name projects. And it actually impresses some of my dumb coworkers. EDIT: I'm not Indian, nor do I live in India.
I Respect you for empathising with the people stuck with the state of the Indian SWE market. I do condemn making bad PRs but yeah that's exactly the thought process that you mentioned in video.
So this video existed for more than 5 months and only now people took an issue with it? Did people decided to spam ExpressJS only now or was the spam a slow but steady one ever since it came out? I don't get it, did they do something bad and people decided to dig more dirt on them and decided to take an issue on this video?
I think chatters said that it is about the time of year Indian students are applying for schools or jobs or internships or something and so they are diving into tutorial videos and didn't properly follow the warnings about "don't spam people with silly requests".
It’s also a matter of scale. India is so big. An American course will be viewed by maybe 10.000 people, an Indian one by 1.000.000 people. The chance someone does stupid things is much higher in the Indian one.
The result of "How can you find a Dev job in 2024 RUclips Videos: 1. Contribute to an open source project!". How can a junior help an open-source project!? I do not know why people keep spreading nonsense so quickly!
The solution was simple. To make an example on own project. As for getting contribution for open source to get a job i still keep hearing about this, even from more popular channels.
> India has a population of 1.42 billion. > The best educational institute for tech are the IITs. > There are only 23 IITs > They wont open more because it'll eat at the prestige of the IITs (or even if the will to expand was there scaling infrastructure to serve that many people is a big issue) What do you think will happen? These are desperate people who are a disaster away from falling below poverty line, they all aspire to have the same life as an average westerner. If you hear them out you'll be surprised how modest their hopes and dreams are, the poorest just wanting human rights. I think we should have some compassion
I don't think the original video was made with malice in mind, just didnt think that a bunch of newbies would follow the tutorial to a T. The problem is that they should have probably pulled the video and fixed the content with a repo they owned or something instead of a massively popular project
one of the major problems is that people blindly follow tutorials and never actually listen to the person speaking. All their critical thinking goes out the window and only the video exists.
TL;DR : Harkirat is a dude that got a couple of really great job opportunity by contributing to opensource projects. He made videos telling people about his process and what he recommends to beginners (it wasn't making crappy PRs). Then people in the Indian ed-tech sector took notice him and started promoting open-source as a "technique" of getting high paying jobs (high pay by indian standards, even 40k USD is high). This in turn has led to a million absolute 🐂💩 PRs everywhere by low-knowledge beginners (mostly undergrads).
The fun thing is, and this may sound racist but it isn't, I never seen such stupid things done by anyone who's not from India. Indians love to cut corners and work for 1 dollar a day, especially on freelance, and that's why it sucks. Oh well
I could not believe how degenerate this stream got, but we steered it back on course towards the end and taught these kids some wisdom
On ya prime. Fighting the good fight.
Reminds me of the Katt Williams bit about learning something from Flava Flav… you can’t judge a person by their blue haired cover.
I wasn’t there to keep the jackals in line, my bad.
😂 jk, I am part of the problem.
There was so much rage in that chat. The instructor made a minor oversight with a mildly abrasive/time-wasting consequence, but you seriously can't sit there and genuinely believe that she's sitting at home in a comedically large chair letting out a mischievous cackle knowing a bunch of noobs are going to go open PRs on Express. 😂
I mean... It was steamy for the stream... XD Hot topics and all.
good job
teacher: 'don't make frivolous pull requests in open source repos'
students: 'and I took that personally'
Ya, Like any teacher or educator wouldn't know that 'telling someone with literally zero skills or understanding of the subject' would do exactly what you exampled and ignore your warnings because it made no sense to them.. nor would it.
Lmao
When I was new to open source, I too got influenced by such videos and wanted to contribute to open source to get some experience.
But till now I haven't contributed to any open source.
I realised fixing typos is very insignificant contribution, I decided that first I will learn and make myself familiar with ecosystem, then I will start contribution.
Till now I was only able to create issues in some projects that I use personally, I was able to create issue cuz I was facing them while using it.
I participated in hactoberfest but didn't contribute to single project cuz I didn't found perfect project to contribute.
I think before contributing to any open source project first you should use that project in your personal project and if you face any issue with dependency you are using then you should raise it and fix it if you can.
@@DePhoegonIsle Anonymously, on the internet? Yeah.
Otherwise, you have to be a muppet.
They wanted to teach GitHub then they could've hosted a repo on their own acc/org and allowed people to submit and accept PRs there
Theo's don't contribute to open source video has aged so well
so true
1000%
lul, this is why I forked my first project after I found out I wasn't going to be helpful to it (it was a mod for MC), and I took my own headaches to learn and do what I wanted with it.
-- believe me, I would love to contribute ... but alot of the times others find issues before I do X}
at this point the only thing we should be teaching beginners is to only contribute by making original projects, teaming up with other beginners, and leaving the big projects alone
@@trustytrojanmight as well tell them to go proprietary am I right
& Bro thinks originality grows on trees
Man my Open Source video is aging like a fine milk
It is shockingly sad to see that you made such a good video and it just gets pooped on
You were spot on and they did not listen to you
@@ThePrimeTimeagen honestly I feel like most of the response has been positive. Even the video you played here (which I hadn’t seen before LOL) seems to largely agree with me
I guess I’ll make a vid on this tomorrow 😅
@@t3dotgg im ready with popcorn
That's because you were right
As an Indian, I apologize to the whole world for these things. Some RUclipsr giving out tips to undergrads to contribute to opensource like this and these n*tjobs following him like sheeps.
I stumbled across this channel and I'm blown away by the empathy shown by this dude. It would've been so easy to jump on the troll train and make this a blame game instead of throwing light to the fact that unfortunate situations happen.
His ability to be charitable is next level.
Yeah he has a great personality
It isn't empathy. It's just assuming the goodwill in someone until they give a reason not to. If people did this the world would be a whole lot different
im so lucky to have found your content, balanced perspectives, and honesty
i love u so much prime
:)
Tytyty
At least one of us is benefitting from watching Prime…
I learnt a thing or two too, especially about how to try and find context, and try and make a level analysis about things, and this take was handled really well by Prime, really nuanced. Bravo. It was surprising educational. I might come back to this video to just re-learn how to be like this irl. Thank you for all the neat content you guys make, appreciate it ❤
And all three people I regularly watch in one place, ah, the stars have aligned.
dont worry @@t3dotgg i love u as well
Haskell and Rust maintainers have nothing to worry about.
Why ?
@@FineWine-v4.0less fishermen in those holes
Oh don't you worry, I'm a Rustacean and I'm an Indian. And I'm a college kid. And I've already got 5 of my friends into Rust. We're coming..
@@comradepeter87you're welcome, but please bring some value... Not like this spamming...
I hope you cache well
@@comradepeter87 You are always welcome.
As long as the code quality stays good and provide value
All the best
Big props to Prime for keeping things civil in chat and providing a kinder perspective to this shit show.
Yes!! Seeing the chat continuously try to steer the event into a hate parade and try to point fingers was wild.
Super proud of how he wasn't easily manipulated and kept his ground.
Absolutely
Difference between children and adults
+1
Cool, nerd
2:00 she literally says "don't actually do this, this is just an example" at one point
edit: also says in the end "we shouldn't create any unnecessary pull requests, only meaningful ones"
She should know by now that the kids she is teaching to are in on it for money and have negligible aptitude for programming and open source otherwise.
Should have used a dummy repo.
@@udittlamba Apparently she did
@@Reydriel she forked the original but didn’t make it clear enough what forking is.
@@udittlamba That is why you start with spooning.
The problem with tutorials like these, is that students literally follow along, so you HAVE to say what not to do before you do the thing. It's very easy for extreme beginners to get lost in the sauce with stuff like that.
If you look at their repo in the video its a fork of express and obviously the students misunderstood or something and went to commit to the actual repo. Seems like some kind of misunderstanding and totally unfortunate
You're telling me that those learning to do basic git & github things like a PR on a singular file through the ultra polished Github UI.... wouldn't know to do their own repo when it was said?
gasp.. shock, la horror
It was showing how to fork and make contributions. So they fork express, make a change, and then PR, but she says "Don't make stupid PRs. Just when you have made a useful contribution".
You overestimate users of software
@@DePhoegonIsle I’m shocked!
…
Well, not that shocked.
totally
I am really happy to see how empathetic you are towards those who badly want job are unskilled but trying dead hard...you tried to assess the situation than rather assuming stuff...You're a 💎
she kinda did this right in her end, it's a forked version of express, but ppl went into the official repo lol
I’m not going to watch through the entire original tutorial but I doubt it was necessary.
You could make an empty express project in 2-3 commands and it would probably serve the exact same purpose.
You could showcase forking a repo without open pull requests, or just an archived repo.
@@radomane Even better, she could've made her own generic project on Github (Express or not) and told her students to fork _that_ instead of Express, so even if they PR'ed the source instead of a fork she would have control.
Making her own project for the class would certainly be better.
The students went full TikTok brain and couldn't pay attention to the whole thing.
I think it's more of a "curse of knowledge" style mistake.
To people that know how this all works, showing a real Repo is kind of more useful to demonstrate that these are tools you can help build, but then to new people, they have just no damn clue what is going on.
@@thekwoka4707 Nah, if the tutorial is on how to make a PR, not what useful stuff you can do with it. Tutorial wasn't even just about PRs
This is almost literally an example of cargo culting - much like flying in cargo to a remote island, there are certain actions that go into creating good, useful PRs that can be superficially mimicked by people who want the fruits of the labour without knowing the intricacies of the actual work involved.
The teachers may even be completely well intentioned and creating good useful courses, but a certain number of people listening don't realise just copying the actions isn't the actual important part.
I taught comp sci at an American university. The number of people that pass through but don't get it is surprising. Maybe the top 25% of the undergrads were worth hiring as programmers/designers. Blindly copying something was common among the lower ranks. We also had a lot of Indians in our masters program. Some were great, but there were a few cultural issues that ran hard into the American standards for code of conduct.
Isn't `cargo cult` a Rust command?
@@knm080xg12r6j991jhgt but in Rust's case, it actually works
I am "contributing" to a project that is written in rust. So I can't write any code myself yet. (might eventually get there). But I have opened like 6 issues describing bugs I encounter with minimal repro steps. A few days later they get tagged and then maybe just sit for a while. Some of the issues I opened lead to new tests and fixes.
The difficult part is to title your issue correctly, but that's a challenege I manage to solve.
So 3-4 months later, when they release a new variant I am getting fewer errors in my project.
to be honest, those prs are the biggest developments expressjs has gotten in a long time
Yeah considering that it's almost useless lib like thousands of other popular js libraries. Just a bloaty wrapper for what's already in NodeJs, which itself is a total bloat.
@@felps3213 people hate popular things, more news at 11
@@felps3213who hurt You?
@@maximof7227 your mother with her teeth
@@maximof7227 how you doing react Andy?
I swear the same thing happened years ago to PyPI, where a book showed how to upload an example package, and then years and tons of empty example packages were uploaded by readers of the book, and PyPI had to set up a thing to funnel them off somewhere else, but I can't find any info about it now. Maybe it was another package manager.
Colored mustache when? The carpet must match the drapes
I don think dat means wat you think it means…
that's the upholstery
is he a feminist or a they them i don't understand
@@stegwiseprime identifies as deece
@@stegwise Clearly you don't understand much lmao
One of the things I love about prime, that he can remember what it's like to be a regular guy struggling to do what everyone else is experience. he's made a follower out of me till the end. the fact he can do both be reasonable and show that he understands regular people, shows his emotional and general intelligence and that's rare in people these days. plus, he cracks me up every time lol Keep being you man, love your content. you're an inspiration!
No matter how good the instructions are some percentage of people will ignore the warnings about not doing test/practice changes to live repositories.
Happens all the time in malware development for example.
Nothing new
Have you ever written instructions for something. Don't tell people what not to do. Some brains cannot process that NOT and will read those sections as what to do. It is wild when it is a safety warning and then you stop someone and they say "I don't know, that is what it said."
The girl literally said "...but we won't create a pull request because we have made a useless change lol..." in the video :/
Probably the teacher should have created a non-productive repo where people can test this out without bad consequences.
Had I done a video like this, I would not have even considered that, but makes sense now why in other videos the teachers have that kind of a separate repo - it gotta be crazy as an educator to say "This is how you do a PR, but remember to only make meaningful PRs" and then see your students do a ton of meaningless PRs.
apperantly that was the case, she did create a fork of the official repo for the students to goof around in but the students ended up on the official one
I don't really know the whole context but at least the twitter video had nothing to do with getting a job. What happened here was video person was showing how to create a pull request. The problem was "Ok guys this is the button you click to create a pull request. ...(20 seconds of talking)... Obviously don't click on this button since there is nothing useful in this pull reauest." The whole thing is irresponsible but not malicious
I think it was just an issue of "know your audience" at least as far as the video is concerned.
It's possible it's part of a course that then also gave a "make a PR" assignment.
@@thekwoka4707might have done, but even if it did, it should specify a repository to do that. This is part of why the way github uses git is not something Linus Torvalds likes however.
Thank you for putting light into this situation blue haired rust programmer | Edit: hi prime!!
Genuinely tried for some grace
I love that there are popular RUclipsrs that work to promote courtesy and trying to contextualize the experiences of others in their videos. Thanks for trying to share a more humanistic approach instead of hot takes.
The girl in the original video said explicitly to not open pointless PRs as they are annoying for the maintainers. She said to only make useful PRs that actually solve a problem.
The problem here is that India is currently facing a problem of "too many" software developers. Every year over 300k engineers graduate, but only a select few get jobs. The others got their degree simply because there wasn't anything else they were passionate about. So, when they don't get a job through placements, they'll start trying these pointless hacks. This is what has happened here. They did not take the time to watch the entire video, saw the steps to open up PR, and started spamming.
Can get a degree without being familiar with github or how to make a pull request?
I watched that video and understand the language, she has actually clearly said that you shouldn't do these useless PRs, she said we shouldn't do these only do when you have actually something valuable to add.
Thanks prime, you navigated this perfectly. As the saying goes, never ascribe to malice what can simply be attributed to incompetence. In this case, I wouldn't call it incompetence but maybe naivety or rather ignorance. None of these things are bad things, it's just that unfortunately the people involved don't have all of the proper context to understand what they're doing is potentially harmful. It doesn't matter where they're from or who they are, people make mistakes all the time.
The course/instructor made a mistake of assuming the students give a shit about learning.
@@thekwoka4707 that doesn't really make any sense by the way. Also, the instructor made that course like 5 months ago, what's happening now has very little to do with her content especially since she showed the proper way of making a PR which these people are not following.
Hey, just wanted to say Thank You prime. Recently, I completely gave up on coding and was ready to leave the coding world because of all this job search frustration but your videos show the passion of programming that I love. The way you talk about the complex stuff is amazing to look at, I saw that there is much more to learn than just plan old javascript. Your story of "meth to netflix" resonates with me because I love learning new stuff, never done drugs and hope to stay away but I seriously just want to learn about programming without all this job search stuff. Sorry for the rant, again Thank You Prime for all your time.
Edit : Just saw the video and honestly this is embarrassing, I don't fully understand their code bases so I don't even think about doing it.
This is why we can't have nice things.
do hiring managers actually look at PRs/features/bugs fixed, or just the number of them?
Imo part of the issue is the mindset of 'fake it till you make it'
Can’t wait to hear that the CV scanning tech has shifted to GitHub scanning for IT roles
Hiring managers don’t look at anything but your resume.
@@ismellpedo so who looks at github PRs then?
@@sub-harmonik The ones who filter for the Hiring Managers X} seriously, I love people who honestly don't think that this doesn't come up in the whole public image search of you as a person.
The owners of the repository and contributors? Who else? @@sub-harmonik
If you're teaching a course like this, make your own bespoke example repo that people can freely nuke, please don't do this on atual existing projects that you don't own or maintain. It's an unfortunate mistake, yeah, but it could be easily avoided with basic foresight.
Prime without hoodie feels a lot more powerful
Changelog
Update README
Update README
Update README
...
😂
space jam dvd
Hehe readme
PLEASE ACCEPT MY PR😢 I NEED A FREE TSHIRT
Hi readme 😂
Rename README to WRITEME
if she wanted to demonstrate how to use github, she should've just created her own repo for this purpose lmao
she did
edit: ok maybe not lol
She clearly did but she should have made 1 called apnacollegetest or something.
Huge fan of Prime's empathy here. Makes me proud to be a sub on twitch.
Thats why you a) have github as a mandatory chapter of a class in 2nd grade of college and b) make the students make a project on there so they can learn it
Love how the hair has been keyed with the background
Joblessness in India, among new engineers, is so darn high they'd spam the heck out of anything should it promise the prospect of landing a job. ...and most colleges teach them sh*t, let alone the ethics and etiquette of open source.
Are they too dumb to realise that this will do the opposite of landing them a job? If I saw this on a potential employee's github profile I wouldn't want to hire them.
if they took 75 dollars the vid wont be free on RUclips, some of the comments were also kinda misleading so believe what you want ig
i was on Melkeys stream when Theo popped in chat and recommended he talk about it.
i didnt wake up early enough to catch your stream, wish i woulda caught it.
honestly I've heard this open source thing, specifically the "just fix a typo" thing waay too many times.
Thank you for being understanding ❤
Chat: IT's not a real college
ThePrimeTime: So is it an online college?
This made me laugh so hard.
It's really ironic tbh that this person who is thousands of miles away from India, and has little to no context of what actually happened is providing such an unbiased perspective and is trying to put himself into the shoes of an Indian fresher programmer.
It is her mistake!!
Although there's a disclaimer at the end of her video it's completely their mistake because they attracted such a crowd in the first place. They attract people claiming that they'll get high paying jobs effortlessly by just completing their courses. And they just aggressively market their stupid courses to anyone.
Why did she use an existing, major OSS project? Why not create a dummy project? This was just so incredibly irresponsible.
Funny, typo PRs kind of landed me the job I still do, since 2016.
I learned a lot from the video. Not about the situation, but about maturity.
A bit late to the party but ok. I'm a native hindi speaker and I don't think this is the source of the issue. BTW I am not affiliated with ApnaCollege in anyway shape or form. She said at one point "...we can do a pull request for our changes to the master branch but we won't because the changes we made are really useless. But generally this is how you make pull requests, if you, say, want to fix anything that is in the code(i.e master branch) or add a new feature. The original owner also limited us from doing unnecessary pull requests. We should not do any unnecessary pull requests and only do useful ones." Correct me if I am wrong but vindicating her for what others are doing seems a bit petty right ? I mean I get that there are a lot of grifters out there both in and out of coding so why use her as the punching bag ?
The funniest thing in the entire video is Prime's hair. That shit was constantly seizing from existence and coming back.
*ceasing
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
I love the fact that primes hair is translucent from the green screen
these are indian college freshers who don't have much exposure to computers before and just entered the college, took CS because of better career prospect and are strictly following that tutorial that channel "apna college" made and ended up following the last step that they were advised not to. They'll surely learn with time
I mean getting paid less then half the min wage working for 60hrs on avg, what prime described is an accurate picture of an "average" Indian Dev barely scraping by at the bottom of the barrel trying out anything that might give them a chance at getting better job. [although most of it I would consider is a skill issue]
There are some cultural differences here, that to say the least are not looked highly upon by the rest of the world.
Famous saying in India [Mandir khula nahi bhikari pehle aa gaye] pointing out to the people who made the pr for the sake of it and adding it to their resume.
prime isn't going bald, the hair is just becoming invisible
Indian youtube helped me finish college.
I can forgive them this little oopsie.
>Needing help from an Indian
Filtered
@@thatonegoblin7051 based
Watching this at 2X speed feels like the fucking matrix
@prime, She was instructing on how to make a PR, and to which branch, and the example she showed while making that PR, she admits is a very non-essential pull request. She is cautioning others from making unnecessary PRs
seeing twitch chat through prime's head cause of his hair is way too funny holy
Assuming a bunch of students will follow instructions is insane. I'm taking an online class for college and out of 40 students only 15 showed up on the first zoom lecture. All of them were dropped.
That is a really a level headed take on this situation.
Damn, another reason to like Primagen.
Along with the memes and great charismatic streaming personality, this is a very levelheaded take.
People on Twitter pretty much started attacking the creator accusing them as the inciter.
As I understand, the creator didn't even imply contributing to opensource gets you jobs, instead it was just a generic git/github tutorial.
People combined these themselves.
And props to Primagen for being levelheaded and assessing the situation with reason despite chat trying to pull him into blind hate.
True. Although the creator may not have meant to teach doing PRs for a job, I have watched quite a few devs on RUclips saying how one can get a remote job without a CS degree by contributing to OSS. Maybe people who watched this were looking for tutorials to do so and ignored the instructions in the video.
Woah prime where did you get that chat colored hair dye?
Love this take by @ThePrimeTimeagen, what a gentlemen.
20:47 This is actually way more important than you might think.
Even body language isn't universal. When talking to people where you don't know where they come from: Keep in mind that whatever you try to do can be interpreted the exact opposite of that.
For example where I come from when a discussion gets heated, we try to cool it down by especially speaking very formal and sitting upright to slightly leaning forwards. In other cultures that may be interpreted as being aggressive. In know from a country close by that they for example normally lay back to cool a heated discussion down. We would interpret that as an insult because we interpret that basically along the lines that you don't care about what we say. And they interpret out way as aggressive. So yeah, nice combination.
Cross-cultural communication is hard and I would argue that it's one of the hardest thing you can end up doing on the regular.
This ✨
What countries are those? I haven't noticed any of that in my country (key words: haven't noticed), if someone tries to cool down the discussion, they either redirect from the topic (often to the previous one or the next one), or say straight forward "let's stop here, we don't need to argue about this right now", the most body language thing is looking away as if you're uncomfortable, but that's only if you're not participating but want it to stop.
@@tymondabrowski12 well, I am from Southern Germany and the other is England (although tbf, I got that one from training by my employer)
absolutely agree. it's even harder when the people you're trying to communicate with can barely speak your language. e.g., trying to work with Indian developers (in India) who barely speak english, and whose culture is very different than mine... it's doable but it takes time and conscious effort
Damn that hair.... you really went all in in rust, huh?
she says not to make these kinds of PRs. You want to make PRs that have meaningful changes.
The thing I dislike about current software is that there's so many people just doing it to get a job.
Not to go all 'back in my day' but 10+ years ago when I went to university most people doing it just enjoyed it, it wasn't trendy or serious it was just a bunch of nerds. I just wanted to make video games and hack my teachers PC in school only after that did big tech become this crazy paying industry.
The reason this is bad is that no one is making any new companies technology or businesses and just trying to become a cog in the machine which makes the whole thing worse because there's nowhere new opening to work.
Even though the instructor said not to actually create a PR on expressjs, it is really easy to make a mistake following their instructions and make an accidental PR. This could've been avoided by doing the demo on an example repository that they created.
Respect++ for such a logical thinking. It's just a communication/education problem because of the cultural diff. No one is trying to spam anybody.
Being a job grasshopper, sometime publicly available contributions DO help one get a proper assessment of their soft and hard skill. Since employer can't really demand someone to show code he worked on previous employment, and some of them rarely wanted to do cross reference. A public interaction (via PR, bug reports, etc) with well-established group is a good gauge on how you would work together within a team.
Note that this works both ways, if one's contribution history is consistently low quality, it also make one be less desirable.
An open source project I hang around.
One year a professor picked out the project and had the students to make commits. The bdfl had to get with the professor and kindly ask them to not lol
following tutorials with the video muted btw.
There is more and more tech jobs in India I think, but it is kinda slower time for tech globally, so of course they get hit too. Bootcamps selling dreams of prosperity (also a global thing) after a 3 months course is a big contributor to this. While they saturated dev space, they moved on onto testing, saturated that field too and now they are focusing on courses for cybersec and devops, so brace yourselves.
One thing that a comment touched on is that a lot of times companies would treat you differently if you come from a more low income country, having to prove yourself a lot more than others. I live in south america and even after taking 2+ years of just studying and making 3-4 projects where id spend at least 2 months on each, i still had 0 people replying to my applications from outside of brazil. i would totally understand people doing prs if it meant that they would have a little bit more of an edge.
I have hit this issue a bit just being an American based in Dubai. I get jobs when people find me through experience, but not response to applications. I am pretty sure it's just filtering out the Dubai application immediately.
If I was a recruiter and saw this kind of PRs in someone's resume, that would be evidence for me that they're not qualified.
Wait, did you try to get jobs outside of your country without experience?
@@gs2142 without work experience. I was applying to jobs outside and inside the country
I just got to the end of this video, and I am so confused. What’s the name? Who is this man?!
This whole thing, just reminds me of the Cargo Cult Mentality. It also is a lot like the Script kiddy issue we had in the 90s.
Open Source Repos are Open and by that very nature they are going to have to deal with good and Bad PR's, Its an age old tale of people trying get ahead in life but looking for shortcuts.
it's a bit of miscommunication, she mentioned that this kind of PRs are useless do not do that and we know internet,
internet did what it does, they did exactly that what she told not to🤣
Translation: "Do the work. There's no quick way to success. You have to get to know people, work on your skills, and build things."
I didnt learn git/github till i learnt the basics of a language started using at least 20 libraries/packages regularly.
I havnt yet become a maintainer/contributer but i usually use the open source part to debug my applications
It's a one hour tutorial about making a pull request?
I don't see many maintainers getting pissed about it, mostly its youtubers and Indians themselves looking down upon each other like always
Can't wait to see all these people who make spam PRs create CV tomorrow and start applying to every job posting they can find on the internet.
I did some minor spelling PRs and got "Contributor" badge in some big-name projects. And it actually impresses some of my dumb coworkers.
EDIT: I'm not Indian, nor do I live in India.
same, I literally just fixed a Vim colorscheme and made a PR
This why you are called real Prime. You have earned it.
Your hair going partially transparent at times had me completely immersed.
@theprimetimeagen is a really wise man. Good points made throughout the video.
So we need rate limiting for github repos?
I Respect you for empathising with the people stuck with the state of the Indian SWE market. I do condemn making bad PRs but yeah that's exactly the thought process that you mentioned in video.
So this video existed for more than 5 months and only now people took an issue with it? Did people decided to spam ExpressJS only now or was the spam a slow but steady one ever since it came out? I don't get it, did they do something bad and people decided to dig more dirt on them and decided to take an issue on this video?
I think chatters said that it is about the time of year Indian students are applying for schools or jobs or internships or something and so they are diving into tutorial videos and didn't properly follow the warnings about "don't spam people with silly requests".
It’s also a matter of scale. India is so big. An American course will be viewed by maybe 10.000 people, an Indian one by 1.000.000 people. The chance someone does stupid things is much higher in the Indian one.
The result of "How can you find a Dev job in 2024 RUclips Videos: 1. Contribute to an open source project!". How can a junior help an open-source project!? I do not know why people keep spreading nonsense so quickly!
The solution was simple. To make an example on own project.
As for getting contribution for open source to get a job i still keep hearing about this, even from more popular channels.
> India has a population of 1.42 billion.
> The best educational institute for tech are the IITs.
> There are only 23 IITs
> They wont open more because it'll eat at the prestige of the IITs (or even if the will to expand was there scaling infrastructure to serve that many people is a big issue)
What do you think will happen? These are desperate people who are a disaster away from falling below poverty line, they all aspire to have the same life as an average westerner. If you hear them out you'll be surprised how modest their hopes and dreams are, the poorest just wanting human rights.
I think we should have some compassion
I don't think the original video was made with malice in mind, just didnt think that a bunch of newbies would follow the tutorial to a T. The problem is that they should have probably pulled the video and fixed the content with a repo they owned or something instead of a massively popular project
one of the major problems is that people blindly follow tutorials and never actually listen to the person speaking. All their critical thinking goes out the window and only the video exists.
TL;DR : Harkirat is a dude that got a couple of really great job opportunity by contributing to opensource projects. He made videos telling people about his process and what he recommends to beginners (it wasn't making crappy PRs). Then people in the Indian ed-tech sector took notice him and started promoting open-source as a "technique" of getting high paying jobs (high pay by indian standards, even 40k USD is high).
This in turn has led to a million absolute 🐂💩 PRs everywhere by low-knowledge beginners (mostly undergrads).
The fun thing is, and this may sound racist but it isn't, I never seen such stupid things done by anyone who's not from India. Indians love to cut corners and work for 1 dollar a day, especially on freelance, and that's why it sucks. Oh well
Everything has to be UPSC ratrace in India for some reason
40k is kind of much we make in Europe . Oof
@@electrolyteorb probable reason: High population=> High Competition
I am stilll awake for this
Why bother with the audio if its just unintelligible? switching off
Good and empathetic take. Also nice thoughst regarding causation and colleration I will keep that in mind.
Prime put the video to 1.25 and I thought he was insane, then I realized I had turned Prime to 1.25 already lmao