Toure really captured the spirit of an older brother making up a game to play against his younger brother and then changing the rules to make sure he never loses 😂 I like the idea though. Next time try to get F D Signifier as the referee
@ I’m not a Wayne fan, but you dropped the ball on that one. Because I know what you were about to say before he interrupted you, but you never came back to it. That there was never a year when Jay was the hottest one out. You would’ve had a stronger case for Wayne.
It's not just 15 year olds at aaaalll. As a Gen Z'er who's 27 (from '97), it's true that we don't really consider Jay Z in the top 5. He might be in the top 10, but not top 5 for most Gen Z'ers. And we are pushing 30 adults now, not just teenagers
As a millennial, it’s not hard to see that Gen X definitely had the best rappers. With the exception of Kendrick & Cole, all of the Gen X rappers wash millennials period! Touré had this in the bag from the start. 🏆
You two need to try this game again, but bring 3-5 judges so you two don't have to try to be objective about giving yourself points. That and each giving yourself an afternoon to prepare a real strategy, maybe doing a set of these with a theme (best of regions, best of subgenres, best of underground or consious or groups). It's a very compelling game format for conversation, it's just begging for semi-impartial judges.
After thinking about it more, that would get too crowded. 1 guest judge for each topic, and then you play it like Apples to Apples or Cards Against Humanity where you're intentionally playing to the judge would probably be the right balance of fun/entertaining. But obviously I find the format interesting enough that I'm still thinking about it 5 hours later.
Haha, oh yeah and on the Jay one as well. Jay is never beating the man that discovered Drake. It's like wiping Drake out of hiphop storytelling. PS: Never a Drake fan, and will never be.
I think if you had done 20 entries then Millenials would have won. Gen X has the 90s generations and the heavy hitters but IMO 2010s/millennial had a stronger class of "mid-tier rappers". I think once we got to Wiki, YOD, Denzel Curry, Vince Staples, Joey Bada$$, Mac Miller, Chief Keef the 90s list isn't as impressive.
You did a couple misplays. Should've saved Kendrick (maybe for 2Pac), maybe could've got big with J cole (longevity and seemingly still a lot of fire to create. While BIG was shy about beef) I agree there's a case for Future over Rakim (Rakim's influence is undeniable. But a lot of people where experimenting with rap at the time and only a little later, and when we credit Rakim's flow so much we overlook the contributions of Kool G Rap, Ultramagnetic MC's, heiroglyphics crew and Freestyle fellowship.) Still don't downplay Rakim. 2 classic albums. Tyler washes Eminem. Em is a great but needs to be put in context. Look at what Pharoahe Monch had been doing. Myka 9. Aesop Rock. Juggaknots. Company Flow. Black Star. MF DOOM. The underground was full of artists who where incredible technical spitters (most of whom went on to have a far stronger discography). Tyler over Em anyday. But not Tyler over DOOM, El-P or Mos I think Weezy against Jay Z was never gonna work. Nikki vs Lauryn was a tough one. A draw is probably fair., Most of Griselda was born in '82 so there was access to that. Could've used Danny Brown , or Lupe Fiasco too. I think an issue is that bunch of Millennials still have a lot of work left to do to prove their point- JID, Cole, Playboi Carti...
I think Nikki should have won. Lauryn hill is amazing but so is Nikki. And Nikki has shaped almost this entire generation of female rappers. Even Doechii not just the cardis and Megan’s
Gen X artists had more time to build a legacy and a certain type of mystic stature so it isn't completely fair to compare with newer artists that are still sometimes in the middle of their career and haven't been around for long enough to be at a "classic" stature.
King Green was def getting bullied a bit 😂 But as a mid-millenial myself, I still thoroughly enjoyed this face off (even though our roster was struggling a bit 😅). These would be my picks: 1. Kendrick (over BIG) 2. Tupac (over Drake) 3. Future/Rakim(tie)- King Green's argument was very valid here 4. Nas (over Cole) 5. Nicki (over Lauryn 😢) - And I say this as someone who LIVED by Miseducation, super tough 6. 3k (over Gambino) - easy, lol 7. Em (over Tyler) 8. Jay/Wayne (tie) - this one was real tough too. I didn't appreciate Wayne more 'til I got older, but Jay was more present in my youth. Couldn't really choose. 9. ScHoolboy Q (over Cube) 10. Ghostface (over Earl) "I said J Cole already?" 😂😂
I'm gen Z, but since I'm my parents' late child (they met when Dad was 40), I grew up listening to old-school hip-hop, so Pac will forever be my idol and number 1, and I'll remember all the conversations about him and what Dad taught me. However, at the same time, I can appreciate and respect the next generation of rappers. This year, Kendrick Lamar became my top 2, which is a shock to me, since my entire top 5 consisted of og rappers before that. What I want to say is that both generations of hip-hop are great, but it's difficult for many people, including me, to look at it objectively, since the influence of the old school on our lives and musical taste was very strong. In particular, the older generations who lived at that time or people who were directly influenced by this generation, such as in my case. I'm 24 years old now, and many people of my generation consider my taste in music to be old-fashioned, but that's what I grew up with and what influenced me the most. Perhaps because I'm a separate generation, it's easier for me to have mixed lists of top rappers and not think about which of these two generations is better, but I still have a bias for my top 1.
@ I think we underrate how much Tyler can make people feel with his delivery and to me performance is also apart of being MC. I feel like Tyler has been on a good streak the last couple years that can put him in the conversation
@@RblastonYT Agree - I know it’s crazy to say this in hip hop but lyrical *dexterity* is being extremely heavily weighted here, perhaps too much. Like sure, it’s super impressive to be able to rap circles around everyone but it’s not just speed and agility, it’s not just size of your vocabulary, it’s those things and also having a unique *sounding* voice (not saying Em doesn’t but), it’s also being able to embody different characters with your voice and use it as a legitimate instrument (Dot and Tyler wash pretty much everybody on this), it’s also storytelling ability, it’s also beat selection and knowing what complements your voice best, it’s also growth in your lyricism and subject matter over the course of a career, it’s also having a genuine artistic point of view, and it’s also being able to connect emotionally with an audience. Eminem does like half of these things incredibly well, but the other half? Let’s just be real… groundbreaking as his run was in his prime I’m just not sure he means as much to the culture as Tyler - who by the way might not even BE at his peak right now…
Dude, there is no way Future's impact even comes close to the impact that Rakim had. I say this as a millennial who was in single digits when Rakim was changing the game.
I feel like milennials have names but they never lived up to the hype or aren't there yet😢: big sean, wale, lil baby, rhapsody, asap rocky, joey badass, troy ave, vic mensa, vince staples, pardison Fontaine, kid cudi
i like Rakim more personally but I think that Future's influence was highly undermined here. After Wayne there isn't a single MC that wasn't influenced by him in some shape or way, till this day we see tons of Future copycats all over the place, I would give it to him on that alone. AND Tyler is the better artist, they changed the standard for everyone lmao. And Wayne IS more influential than Jay-z and isn't about 15 years old, I'm talking about every MC from the 2010s (Including KDot), saying that Jay is that much influential is CRAZY
No Lupe is insane he clears Rakim, Lauryn, and Cube as an MC and has classics and longevity. It probably would have only added one extra point for millennials but is essential.
Might be time for hip hop to do what rock did. The diliniation of "Classic Rock" really put a a line in the sand that allowed a division in the eras even though the influence was still there. Also allowed a "genre" label, even if it isn't actually very cohesive, for younger people to discover the classic artists from which is how you got all these high school kids to this day rocking with acts like Led Zepplin and the Beatles. Allowing for the creation of "Classic Rap" fans who at a young age will find their people who agree and start allowing these arguments to be had with people their own age as instead of it always being between people in different generations.
Great discussion however the debate was a bit flawed considering the shifting goal posts. If being true to the art of hip hop emceeing , the debate should be limited to two metrics: lyricism and delivery. All other points serves are mere subjective distractions - for instance, numbers in support of otherwise dismal attributes. Furthermore, I would argue, the numbers game - sells, productivity, longevity, etc - is not representative of talent, relevance, or impact. Instead, numbers are a reflection of popularity driven by technological and marketing advancements coupled with genre maturity. For instance, drake numbers are inflated as he was added to unrelated playlists. In the surface, that’s a strong metric, but the hidden details aren’t as favorable. Imagine Common (a true conscience lyricist being given the same push and marketing budget and international exposure as drake).
im totally riding with this idea, i love it! been asking my friends today to pull the best MCs from each generation on a VARIETY of points! Someone said this to me yesterday and I totally agree: we need sub genres in hip hop!!! ty for the awesome episode and great questions!
although i agree that jay absolutely washes wayne, green had a lot of good arguments for wayne future and niki. not saying they’re overall greater artists but i think being a great MC requires a lot more than just making a great piece of art. the cultural impact is huge and you cannot tell 75% of gen z’ers that future is not the greatest rapper alive
I think it's hard to argue against the golden era of hip hop, and while many of them paved the way for some millenials and gen z to surpass them, the amount of legendary MCs is just impossible to contend with. We may have Kendrick, JID, Mac Miller, Tyler, Cole, Nicki, Wayne, Lupe, Denzel Curry, Little Simz, Freddie Gibbs, Danny Brown (barely, he was '81), and even JPEGMAFIA if you wanna go underground/experimental, there's also Daveed Diggs (who really deserves more top 10, or at least top 50 consideration), but they had all of that and more, and they've had the luxury of becoming legends in their own right. I think part of it is the overcommercialization of hip hop and the music industry in general in the 2000s and 2010s led to a lot of artists who were good, but not great becoming massively popular. I think Kendrick's battle to get hip hop back to its roots, as well as the individualism and democratization of media and art via accessible technology and social media, will lead to gen z and gen alpha leading a new wave of great artists that could potentially go toe to toe with a generation like gen x. Only time will tell though
I wanted to include more underground MCs, but most of the ones I think are good enough to compare (billy woods, Ka, Ride) are all actually gen x who just got started later in life
As a ‘82 cusp millennial, Toure’s wild cheating and goalpost-moving was mad triggering. As a lover of deeper conversations about hip hop, this was a fantastic episode🖤
I think but I could be wrong a good equivalent for Rakim, would be Kid Cudi. After Cudi and Kanye’s collaboration during 808’s, Man on the Moon 1 & 2 the change in hip hop was massive; even though arguably it was a relatively short time in terms of impact for a producer, rapper duo. It gave way to so many Artist’s style and career including Future and Drake. I could have a major blind spot on this one tho (Cudi’s my favorite artist.)
17:58 Tyler VS Eminem Holistically Tyler wins by far. Technically: while eminem does take this, I think that Tyler’s ability is much underrated as a spitter. More importantly, however, technical ability in the weighing of a rappers holistic evaluation can only be weighted so high if the art created through it is just not as good. Influence: A rapper’s role in the creation of their art is so under plaid in the debate. While the aesthetic leaning of either artist is weighed subjectively I think that it’s evidently clear that the world created by Tyler and the artist which followed to inhabit it is far more impactful and meaningful then Eminem’s. Not only was it more of a departure to the norm of the culture than Eminem was but the artist which in suit were hell more impactful than the pool of white artist that Eminem brought in (jack harlow). And I want to stress the irrelevance of the market opened by Eminem in this conversation due to the cultural decline it would bring in the rise of jack Harlow Mgk etc (watch white rapper paradox by FD) Artistically: Tyler washes Eminem by a lot. It’s important to note that artistry as a rapper does not purely refer to the ability to create bars but more so their ability to creat a cohesive work that works hand in hand with the beats, production,narrative. Now this is done through the selection of beats, album sequencing, and the complimentary-ness of bars and production in service to the song/album. To be honest comparing the best of both artist not only do I think that Eminem has weaker album sequencing or thorough artistic vision but ability to spit in service to a song. Whilst Eminem can slide on any beat there’s a reason why u can’t hear a Tyler beat without his rhymes. That’s how well Tyler consistently raps to create not the best bars but best songs. And in the evaluation of a rapper as genre artist is more important than the technical ability Eminem has. In conclusion I think the only reason Eminem could win is due to his technical ability but as admitted in debate, CLASSICS matter more and…that’s not the only thing that matters when it comes to creating CLASSICS. TYLER WINS great vid tho
This might be the only RUclips comment I ever write ✍🏽 . Toure, you def cheated on multiple rounds and I'll outline how: Nicki v Lauryn: Nicki has more sons. The Nicki Minaj variants are having successful careers because she truly created a new lane for MUSIC. Nicki has a longer career because she's one of the best feature artists of all time and consistently raising her own bar. Nicki has a more impactful career. Many people don't credit her for this, but Nicki Minaj is one of the first celebrities to interact with fans via social media (OG Twitter days). She created a mold. Lauryn Hill is a great emcee but two amazing albums (one of which being mostly R&B songs) does not make a better career. Tyler v Em: Tyler is a better edgelord artist (which is what Eminem did for majority of his popular songs). Tyler is a better performer. Tyler is a better musician. Hip hop is music. The better musician will always win. Wayne v Jay Z: I love Jay-Z, but as a Chicago girl who's spent a lot of my life in the South...he's not touching Wayne as far as impact. I think we fail to realize that the South will forever be a tastemaker as far as what's impactful in hip-hop. Andre told y'all that The South has something to say but it's still crickets whenever it's time to give a Southern rapper their praise. Kids know Wayne bars. The youth ain't listening to Jay fr. Wayne has launched two of hip hop's most successful careers. Not a positive flex but a whole generation of folks were double cupped because of WAYNE. Jay Z didn't touch culture in the same way, even though Rocawear was had the cute puffer coats. Nobody can convince me that Jay Z musically means as much to people as Wayne.
How are you going to create a game where you compared two generations and automatically have the older generation win each comparison because of influence and legend status?
Man....put me tf in coach! Millennials were not appropriately represented here. Green's arms are too short for this boxing match so he goes into full on victim mode.
Trying to formulate King Greens argument: You need a generation of successful 'sons' to canonize the 'fathers.' Millennials did this for Gen X, but the Zoomers haven't taken over the game enough to do the same.
Killer Mike : Ice Cube Drake : LL Cool J Kdot : 2Pac Mos Def : Rakim Future : Missy Elliot J Cole : Nas Kanye : Notorious BIG Lil Wayne : Craig Mack Nicki Minaj : T.I. Black Thought : Andre 3k Tyler : Left Eye Eminem : Rhapsody Megan Thee Stallion : Will Smith Carti : Busta Rhymes
Green used Kendrick way too early.. should've waited to battle him against Jay Z. Also, Toure was totally changing the rules. The hard part is this is what Toure does. He is a writer, he knows how to paint the picture and sell the pitch. Millennials win in my pov.
Who's the better jazz pianist, Robert Glasper or Duke Ellington? That's how this convo is coming across...to ME (talking about different generations thoughts)
I'm worry about Gen Z and beyond. because of these streaming platforms and SoundCloud as the way the music consumption! JayZ is NOT in my top, "Hawaii silky MF..." I am biased and not objective. However, Chicago and the Midwest is always IGNORED! Kanye, Common, Twista, Bone Thuga N Harmony, Nelly, Da Brat ,and Chance the Rapper to name a few, and i do not respect drill/murder music! Kendrick parents were from Chicago so if you think he was influenced by them, you are crazy. We had Motown and the Jackson family. I came in at the five minutes
Green forgot Ab Soul, Wale, Pusha T and a few others that could have made for more compelling arguments. Tyler you could have argued actually produces and sings as well. However I'm a Millennial and agree that Gen X takes it.
Millennial circa 1991 here. Green got washed on this. I was hopign Green would keep it close; but a lot of his picks weren't up to par by comparison. Green forgot: Nipsey Hussle Yung Thug T.I. Gucci Mane Denzel Curry Danny Brown JPEGMAFIA Playboi Carti Travis Scott And thats just a few. Millennials are from 1980-1995. There are a bunch of options.
My millennial brother, you let this old Gen Xer bully you out of points. Future should've been a tie. Nicki was a clear winner. Tyler beats Eminem for the culture.
We never got real guidelines on how this is judged. I kept hearing the word MC, but it was bouncing everywhere. Green you lost either way my guy, but it was a closer in my opinion. lol
My thoughts on fair comps I'd like to see discussed in depth (in no particular order) 1. Cube - Nip 2. Pac - Drake 3. Rakim - Future 4. Biggie - Nikki 5. Lauryn - Lupe 6. Nas - Cole 7. Hov - Wayne 8. Em - Kendrick 9. 3K - Mac Miller 10. GFK - Tyler This list excludes Rhymesayers, Army Of The Pharoes, and everybody associated with Grind Time and the battle scene of the late 00s early 10s, as well as numerous extremely talented MCs on both sides including people outside the US. Also, Doechii and JID arent millennials. Lastly, don't pit Lauryn vs Nikki because they're women, they both stand up to (and in many instances outshine) the sea of me they share a space with.
Um Earl is the #1 lyricist of OF and arguably his generation for sure. Some Raps Songs is an actual masterpiece. Kendrick said he was his favorite rapper as well. Also think Noname is a good matchup for Lauryn. If we being fair Telefone-Sundial is more dense of a run of raps than Blunted on Reality - Miseducation imo.
Toure really captured the spirit of an older brother making up a game to play against his younger brother and then changing the rules to make sure he never loses 😂 I like the idea though. Next time try to get F D Signifier as the referee
😂😂😂😂
As a 40yr old Millennial... Toure is being an old head with his arguments 😅
@@IamSammyJ2003 👀 all I’m saying
I’m a Gen-Xer and I agree. He is. (That goal post was definitely moving.)
If speaking pure lyricism, Gen X washes all, except Dot and Cole. He gave Nikki too much credit, she’s nothing more than a Lil Kim rerun.
That and he's coming with that Arthur Ashe sweatsuit vibe..from a real old GenX
I’m Gen X. And while there’s no question we legitimately washed the millennials, Torre did move the goalposts a lot.
@@efanamethesequel thank you I’m here in the comments to get my participation 🏆
@ I’m not a Wayne fan, but you dropped the ball on that one. Because I know what you were about to say before he interrupted you, but you never came back to it. That there was never a year when Jay was the hottest one out. You would’ve had a stronger case for Wayne.
The way Toure laughed at Drake 😂
DRAAKE?
Future actually makes a ton of sense to me comparison wise. Future changed the whole sound of mainstream hip hop it feels like
Trap was there already so he had an advantage but yeah
@@mrlofi333That's the problem, most shit was there LOL. It's rigged L from the start
It's not just 15 year olds at aaaalll. As a Gen Z'er who's 27 (from '97), it's true that we don't really consider Jay Z in the top 5. He might be in the top 10, but not top 5 for most Gen Z'ers. And we are pushing 30 adults now, not just teenagers
As a millennial, it’s not hard to see that Gen X definitely had the best rappers. With the exception of Kendrick & Cole, all of the Gen X rappers wash millennials period! Touré had this in the bag from the start. 🏆
And Cole gets washed by most
Green had the better argument on Nicki vs. Lauryn.
1000% Nicki doesn't have the artistry of Lauryn, but as an emcee she's one of the greatest ever and a much better emcee.
No love for Lupe Fiasco vs Cube? Perfect time to bring out the Lupe card.
You two need to try this game again, but bring 3-5 judges so you two don't have to try to be objective about giving yourself points. That and each giving yourself an afternoon to prepare a real strategy, maybe doing a set of these with a theme (best of regions, best of subgenres, best of underground or consious or groups). It's a very compelling game format for conversation, it's just begging for semi-impartial judges.
After thinking about it more, that would get too crowded. 1 guest judge for each topic, and then you play it like Apples to Apples or Cards Against Humanity where you're intentionally playing to the judge would probably be the right balance of fun/entertaining. But obviously I find the format interesting enough that I'm still thinking about it 5 hours later.
Like this comment if you feel Toure Cheated... i want my participation trophy too.
Toure def cheated on the Rakim one. I'd preserved Future for later, and threw him Gambino
🤣 he definitely cheated fam
Haha, oh yeah and on the Jay one as well. Jay is never beating the man that discovered Drake. It's like wiping Drake out of hiphop storytelling. PS: Never a Drake fan, and will never be.
I think if you had done 20 entries then Millenials would have won. Gen X has the 90s generations and the heavy hitters but IMO 2010s/millennial had a stronger class of "mid-tier rappers". I think once we got to Wiki, YOD, Denzel Curry, Vince Staples, Joey Bada$$, Mac Miller, Chief Keef the 90s list isn't as impressive.
You did a couple misplays. Should've saved Kendrick (maybe for 2Pac), maybe could've got big with J cole (longevity and seemingly still a lot of fire to create. While BIG was shy about beef)
I agree there's a case for Future over Rakim (Rakim's influence is undeniable. But a lot of people where experimenting with rap at the time and only a little later, and when we credit Rakim's flow so much we overlook the contributions of Kool G Rap, Ultramagnetic MC's, heiroglyphics crew and Freestyle fellowship.) Still don't downplay Rakim. 2 classic albums.
Tyler washes Eminem. Em is a great but needs to be put in context. Look at what Pharoahe Monch had been doing. Myka 9. Aesop Rock. Juggaknots. Company Flow. Black Star. MF DOOM. The underground was full of artists who where incredible technical spitters (most of whom went on to have a far stronger discography). Tyler over Em anyday. But not Tyler over DOOM, El-P or Mos
I think Weezy against Jay Z was never gonna work.
Nikki vs Lauryn was a tough one. A draw is probably fair.,
Most of Griselda was born in '82 so there was access to that. Could've used Danny Brown , or Lupe Fiasco too. I think an issue is that bunch of Millennials still have a lot of work left to do to prove their point- JID, Cole, Playboi Carti...
Coming out the gate with KDot against Big was like using the little joker to cut clubs early in a spades game.
My nigga.. I panicked 😅
yall need to reupload the jayz v wayne segment with 'we cry together' instrumental in the background 🤣🤣
STOP 💀
Bro why 😂😂😂😂
I'm a millennial. I expected we would lose.
I think Nikki should have won. Lauryn hill is amazing but so is Nikki. And Nikki has shaped almost this entire generation of female rappers. Even Doechii not just the cardis and Megan’s
Nikki got all of her ideas and imagery from Lil'Kim and Missy Elliot, Left Eye, Salt n Pepa and Da Brat. Her rhymes are weak compared to Lauryn Hill.
@@thoomolongfaaaaaacts!
Gen X artists had more time to build a legacy and a certain type of mystic stature so it isn't completely fair to compare with newer artists that are still sometimes in the middle of their career and haven't been around for long enough to be at a "classic" stature.
Yo, just found this channel recently, keep up the good work🫡
Appreciate it
Should’ve said Wayne vs Rakim better comparison especially influence everyone started rapping like Wayne when he was in his prime
Game was rigged😢 we didn't stand chance
King Green was def getting bullied a bit 😂 But as a mid-millenial myself, I still thoroughly enjoyed this face off (even though our roster was struggling a bit 😅).
These would be my picks:
1. Kendrick (over BIG)
2. Tupac (over Drake)
3. Future/Rakim(tie)- King Green's argument was very valid here
4. Nas (over Cole)
5. Nicki (over Lauryn 😢) - And I say this as someone who LIVED by Miseducation, super tough
6. 3k (over Gambino) - easy, lol
7. Em (over Tyler)
8. Jay/Wayne (tie) - this one was real tough too. I didn't appreciate Wayne more 'til I got older, but Jay was more present in my youth. Couldn't really choose.
9. ScHoolboy Q (over Cube)
10. Ghostface (over Earl)
"I said J Cole already?" 😂😂
Schoolboy wouldn’t put himself over Cube
@@hthee3rd I agree, he probably wouldn't out of respect
I'm gen Z, but since I'm my parents' late child (they met when Dad was 40), I grew up listening to old-school hip-hop, so Pac will forever be my idol and number 1, and I'll remember all the conversations about him and what Dad taught me. However, at the same time, I can appreciate and respect the next generation of rappers. This year, Kendrick Lamar became my top 2, which is a shock to me, since my entire top 5 consisted of og rappers before that.
What I want to say is that both generations of hip-hop are great, but it's difficult for many people, including me, to look at it objectively, since the influence of the old school on our lives and musical taste was very strong. In particular, the older generations who lived at that time or people who were directly influenced by this generation, such as in my case. I'm 24 years old now, and many people of my generation consider my taste in music to be old-fashioned, but that's what I grew up with and what influenced me the most.
Perhaps because I'm a separate generation, it's easier for me to have mixed lists of top rappers and not think about which of these two generations is better, but I still have a bias for my top 1.
I feel like Tyler vs. Em could be argued more
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Tyler’s rapping has gotten better but nah
@ I think we underrate how much Tyler can make people feel with his delivery and to me performance is also apart of being MC. I feel like Tyler has been on a good streak the last couple years that can put him in the conversation
@@RblastonYT Agree - I know it’s crazy to say this in hip hop but lyrical *dexterity* is being extremely heavily weighted here, perhaps too much. Like sure, it’s super impressive to be able to rap circles around everyone but it’s not just speed and agility, it’s not just size of your vocabulary, it’s those things and also having a unique *sounding* voice (not saying Em doesn’t but), it’s also being able to embody different characters with your voice and use it as a legitimate instrument (Dot and Tyler wash pretty much everybody on this), it’s also storytelling ability, it’s also beat selection and knowing what complements your voice best, it’s also growth in your lyricism and subject matter over the course of a career, it’s also having a genuine artistic point of view, and it’s also being able to connect emotionally with an audience. Eminem does like half of these things incredibly well, but the other half? Let’s just be real… groundbreaking as his run was in his prime I’m just not sure he means as much to the culture as Tyler - who by the way might not even BE at his peak right now…
Dude, there is no way Future's impact even comes close to the impact that Rakim had. I say this as a millennial who was in single digits when Rakim was changing the game.
Gen X is the golden hip hop era, they’ll never be another better..that’s like going up against the 90s bulls..
Toure could’ve just named members of the Wu Tang Clan against every Millennial rapper and Gen-X still would’ve won 😂😂😂
So glad i had this channel suggested to me. Love it
Watching this is like watching cousins arguing over who's favorite rapper is better and why... Oh 😅😂 too nostalgic
Was not expecting Earl Sweatshirt
I feel like milennials have names but they never lived up to the hype or aren't there yet😢: big sean, wale, lil baby, rhapsody, asap rocky, joey badass, troy ave, vic mensa, vince staples, pardison Fontaine, kid cudi
Isn’t Lupe Fiasco a millennial? He could have beaten someone on that Gen X list.
i like Rakim more personally but I think that Future's influence was highly undermined here. After Wayne there isn't a single MC that wasn't influenced by him in some shape or way, till this day we see tons of Future copycats all over the place, I would give it to him on that alone. AND Tyler is the better artist, they changed the standard for everyone lmao. And Wayne IS more influential than Jay-z and isn't about 15 years old, I'm talking about every MC from the 2010s (Including KDot), saying that Jay is that much influential is CRAZY
The Millenial hand could have been played better but he also deserved a couple of those points lol
The Boomers had The Last Poet and Gil Scott Heron. Gen X got Hip Hop, all the elements.
No Lupe is insane he clears Rakim, Lauryn, and Cube as an MC and has classics and longevity. It probably would have only added one extra point for millennials but is essential.
Only because he listened and learned from them
Might be time for hip hop to do what rock did. The diliniation of "Classic Rock" really put a a line in the sand that allowed a division in the eras even though the influence was still there. Also allowed a "genre" label, even if it isn't actually very cohesive, for younger people to discover the classic artists from which is how you got all these high school kids to this day rocking with acts like Led Zepplin and the Beatles. Allowing for the creation of "Classic Rap" fans who at a young age will find their people who agree and start allowing these arguments to be had with people their own age as instead of it always being between people in different generations.
I believe it already is classic 90’s rnb and hiphop
You’re gotcha bruh. The Golden Era has ranged of MCs from top tier to the one hit wonders.
If lupe fiasco doesn’t get played...
@@home-818 Yeah, no Lupe was a misstep
Great discussion however the debate was a bit flawed considering the shifting goal posts. If being true to the art of hip hop emceeing , the debate should be limited to two metrics: lyricism and delivery. All other points serves are mere subjective distractions - for instance, numbers in support of otherwise dismal attributes.
Furthermore, I would argue, the numbers game - sells, productivity, longevity, etc - is not representative of talent, relevance, or impact. Instead, numbers are a reflection of popularity driven by technological and marketing advancements coupled with genre maturity.
For instance, drake numbers are inflated as he was added to unrelated playlists. In the surface, that’s a strong metric, but the hidden details aren’t as favorable. Imagine Common (a true conscience lyricist being given the same push and marketing budget and international exposure as drake).
im totally riding with this idea, i love it! been asking my friends today to pull the best MCs from each generation on a VARIETY of points! Someone said this to me yesterday and I totally agree: we need sub genres in hip hop!!!
ty for the awesome episode and great questions!
although i agree that jay absolutely washes wayne, green had a lot of good arguments for wayne future and niki. not saying they’re overall greater artists but i think being a great MC requires a lot more than just making a great piece of art. the cultural impact is huge and you cannot tell 75% of gen z’ers that future is not the greatest rapper alive
So next is boomers vs alpha?
Curtis blow vs the rizzler?
😅😂😂
As a millennial I have to say Gen X washes Millennials😅
Not far when they have MF DOOM, Nas, Pac, Biggie, Jay , Em etc etc to no end. Its the golden era for a reason
I'm a Millenial (32), but in what universe does Kendrick "WASH" (4:15 - 4:18) B.I.G.?
My dawgs pulled out the big Jokers off the dribble lmao.. Dot & Pac out the gate lmao.
I think it's hard to argue against the golden era of hip hop, and while many of them paved the way for some millenials and gen z to surpass them, the amount of legendary MCs is just impossible to contend with. We may have Kendrick, JID, Mac Miller, Tyler, Cole, Nicki, Wayne, Lupe, Denzel Curry, Little Simz, Freddie Gibbs, Danny Brown (barely, he was '81), and even JPEGMAFIA if you wanna go underground/experimental, there's also Daveed Diggs (who really deserves more top 10, or at least top 50 consideration), but they had all of that and more, and they've had the luxury of becoming legends in their own right. I think part of it is the overcommercialization of hip hop and the music industry in general in the 2000s and 2010s led to a lot of artists who were good, but not great becoming massively popular. I think Kendrick's battle to get hip hop back to its roots, as well as the individualism and democratization of media and art via accessible technology and social media, will lead to gen z and gen alpha leading a new wave of great artists that could potentially go toe to toe with a generation like gen x. Only time will tell though
I wanted to include more underground MCs, but most of the ones I think are good enough to compare (billy woods, Ka, Ride) are all actually gen x who just got started later in life
Where is DMX in this convo? We need a part 8 😂
I woulda put Kanye v Rakim if we’re talking influence, I don’t think I gotta explain that right?
Also! Woulda put Lupe v Cube idk bout this one though 😂
As a ‘82 cusp millennial, Toure’s wild cheating and goalpost-moving was mad triggering. As a lover of deeper conversations about hip hop, this was a fantastic episode🖤
🙏🏾 🏆 😅
I’m only 12 minutes in but this is great. Love this idea for a conversation and video. 👏
Generation x will always feel some type of way about this since hip hop started in that generation
Light work, GEN-X swept 🧹😂
I think but I could be wrong a good equivalent for Rakim, would be Kid Cudi. After Cudi and Kanye’s collaboration during 808’s, Man on the Moon 1 & 2 the change in hip hop was massive; even though arguably it was a relatively short time in terms of impact for a producer, rapper duo. It gave way to so many Artist’s style and career including Future and Drake. I could have a major blind spot on this one tho (Cudi’s my favorite artist.)
17:58
Tyler VS Eminem
Holistically Tyler wins by far.
Technically: while eminem does take this, I think that Tyler’s ability is much underrated as a spitter. More importantly, however, technical ability in the weighing of a rappers holistic evaluation can only be weighted so high if the art created through it is just not as good.
Influence: A rapper’s role in the creation of their art is so under plaid in the debate. While the aesthetic leaning of either artist is weighed subjectively I think that it’s evidently clear that the world created by Tyler and the artist which followed to inhabit it is far more impactful and meaningful then Eminem’s. Not only was it more of a departure to the norm of the culture than Eminem was but the artist which in suit were hell more impactful than the pool of white artist that Eminem brought in (jack harlow). And I want to stress the irrelevance of the market opened by Eminem in this conversation due to the cultural decline it would bring in the rise of jack Harlow Mgk etc (watch white rapper paradox by FD)
Artistically: Tyler washes Eminem by a lot. It’s important to note that artistry as a rapper does not purely refer to the ability to create bars but more so their ability to creat a cohesive work that works hand in hand with the beats, production,narrative. Now this is done through the selection of beats, album sequencing, and the complimentary-ness of bars and production in service to the song/album. To be honest comparing the best of both artist not only do I think that Eminem has weaker album sequencing or thorough artistic vision but ability to spit in service to a song. Whilst Eminem can slide on any beat there’s a reason why u can’t hear a Tyler beat without his rhymes. That’s how well Tyler consistently raps to create not the best bars but best songs. And in the evaluation of a rapper as genre artist is more important than the technical ability Eminem has.
In conclusion I think the only reason Eminem could win is due to his technical ability but as admitted in debate, CLASSICS matter more and…that’s not the only thing that matters when it comes to creating CLASSICS. TYLER WINS great vid tho
This might be the only RUclips comment I ever write ✍🏽 .
Toure, you def cheated on multiple rounds and I'll outline how:
Nicki v Lauryn: Nicki has more sons. The Nicki Minaj variants are having successful careers because she truly created a new lane for MUSIC. Nicki has a longer career because she's one of the best feature artists of all time and consistently raising her own bar. Nicki has a more impactful career. Many people don't credit her for this, but Nicki Minaj is one of the first celebrities to interact with fans via social media (OG Twitter days). She created a mold. Lauryn Hill is a great emcee but two amazing albums (one of which being mostly R&B songs) does not make a better career.
Tyler v Em: Tyler is a better edgelord artist (which is what Eminem did for majority of his popular songs). Tyler is a better performer. Tyler is a better musician. Hip hop is music. The better musician will always win.
Wayne v Jay Z: I love Jay-Z, but as a Chicago girl who's spent a lot of my life in the South...he's not touching Wayne as far as impact. I think we fail to realize that the South will forever be a tastemaker as far as what's impactful in hip-hop. Andre told y'all that The South has something to say but it's still crickets whenever it's time to give a Southern rapper their praise. Kids know Wayne bars. The youth ain't listening to Jay fr. Wayne has launched two of hip hop's most successful careers. Not a positive flex but a whole generation of folks were double cupped because of WAYNE. Jay Z didn't touch culture in the same way, even though Rocawear was had the cute puffer coats. Nobody can convince me that Jay Z musically means as much to people as Wayne.
GenX is unmatched and they are still going
1985 Hey At least we get Kendrick Lamar🤩
Not a rapper but I would pit Solange's A Seat At The Table to Miseducation
I like thissssssssss
How are you going to create a game where you compared two generations and automatically have the older generation win each comparison because of influence and legend status?
It is what it is
You can take out influence & longevity. Album & lyricist by far its not close 🤣. How about u try with top 10 best lyrics & albums 🙄
They should have 1 or 3 other people (judges) on the stream to break the ties.
Next time completely
I love this episode
Btw the goat fem emcee is missy elliot
How did you not use Lupe for millennials!? Toure couldn't deny Lupe without looking absolutely crazy
Y’all need a third person to vote, that Tyler vs em debate was actually a good vs
It's a shame Green couldn't pick from Gen Z, cause he would've won that last battle with Yuno Miles
Man....put me tf in coach! Millennials were not appropriately represented here. Green's arms are too short for this boxing match so he goes into full on victim mode.
Don't sleep on Em as a producer.
Is Green really out here acting like Tupac is an Area 51 level secret to Gen Z?
I'm a millennial but Pac just makes you feel every word, I can't explain it. Gen Z hasn't produced a single artist with a legendary discography though
gen z vs millennials next lol
They’re still young to be fair. Give them time @ Gen Z.
@@hatchettharley3186 the oldest gen Z is 27, I strongly believe it's over
Kendrick
@@mrlofi333 he's a millennial
Trying to formulate King Greens argument: You need a generation of successful 'sons' to canonize the 'fathers.' Millennials did this for Gen X, but the Zoomers haven't taken over the game enough to do the same.
I couldn’t watch this slaughter. Gen X has no real competition.
I always get confused in this "who the best" when talking about rappers...vs. Real MCs
I really like the way Green thinks. Future could’ve beat Rakim based on your reasoning.
Killer Mike : Ice Cube
Drake : LL Cool J
Kdot : 2Pac
Mos Def : Rakim
Future : Missy Elliot
J Cole : Nas
Kanye : Notorious BIG
Lil Wayne : Craig Mack
Nicki Minaj : T.I.
Black Thought : Andre 3k
Tyler : Left Eye
Eminem : Rhapsody
Megan Thee Stallion : Will Smith
Carti : Busta Rhymes
I think Green could've picked better names but Toure was definitely tripping sometimes
This is a fun game!
Toure really think “Sasquatch, Godzilla, King Kong, Loch Ness” was a bar 🤣
As a 28 yr old zoomer. I hate to point out but both of these arguments ignore the best rappers of both generations... DOOM, AND LIL B.
Bro is floundering, they should've prepared for this beforehand smh heartbreaking
Green used Kendrick way too early.. should've waited to battle him against Jay Z. Also, Toure was totally changing the rules. The hard part is this is what Toure does. He is a writer, he knows how to paint the picture and sell the pitch. Millennials win in my pov.
Who's the better jazz pianist, Robert Glasper or Duke Ellington? That's how this convo is coming across...to ME (talking about different generations thoughts)
I love this game! This is so cool
I'm worry about Gen Z and beyond. because of these streaming platforms and SoundCloud as the way the music consumption! JayZ is NOT in my top, "Hawaii silky MF..." I am biased and not objective. However, Chicago and the Midwest is always IGNORED!
Kanye, Common, Twista, Bone Thuga N Harmony, Nelly, Da Brat ,and Chance the Rapper to name a few, and i do not respect drill/murder music! Kendrick parents were from Chicago so if you think he was influenced by them, you are crazy. We had Motown and the Jackson family. I came in at the five minutes
I'm 32 a millennial and dot is the only millennial I fw. Other than than since I was a kid PAC been my absolute fav then Jay big and nas.
Millennials by far have the best female individual rapper.
Green forgot Ab Soul, Wale, Pusha T and a few others that could have made for more compelling arguments.
Tyler you could have argued actually produces and sings as well.
However I'm a Millennial and agree that Gen X takes it.
Millennial circa 1991 here. Green got washed on this. I was hopign Green would keep it close; but a lot of his picks weren't up to par by comparison.
Green forgot:
Nipsey Hussle
Yung Thug
T.I.
Gucci Mane
Denzel Curry
Danny Brown
JPEGMAFIA
Playboi Carti
Travis Scott
And thats just a few. Millennials are from 1980-1995. There are a bunch of options.
As an objective millennial....this result was expected lol
Green was trippin. For the last 2 give me Kid Cudi over Cube and give me Gucci Mane over Ghost.
boy, we needed a boomer to come in and play this old head card over toure so we could get the real story 😂
Older brother bullying type game lmao
Lauryn Hill wins
Y’all should get Lil Bill on. He’s FD Sig’s partner in crime
I am Gen X. Therefore, I am highly biased. 😅
My millennial brother, you let this old Gen Xer bully you out of points. Future should've been a tie. Nicki was a clear winner. Tyler beats Eminem for the culture.
@@tanyabc I was told to respect my elders 🤷🏾♂️
@@KingxGreen and i bet it was an elder who told you that. convenient.
@@tanyabc ahahah
Also, really only mention 2 female MCs?? Where was Missy? Where was Kim? Meg & Doechii & Flo
We never got real guidelines on how this is judged. I kept hearing the word MC, but it was bouncing everywhere. Green you lost either way my guy, but it was a closer in my opinion. lol
Millennials lost because we got drake, Tyler the creator and nicki
My thoughts on fair comps I'd like to see discussed in depth (in no particular order)
1. Cube - Nip
2. Pac - Drake
3. Rakim - Future
4. Biggie - Nikki
5. Lauryn - Lupe
6. Nas - Cole
7. Hov - Wayne
8. Em - Kendrick
9. 3K - Mac Miller
10. GFK - Tyler
This list excludes Rhymesayers, Army Of The Pharoes, and everybody associated with Grind Time and the battle scene of the late 00s early 10s, as well as numerous extremely talented MCs on both sides including people outside the US. Also, Doechii and JID arent millennials. Lastly, don't pit Lauryn vs Nikki because they're women, they both stand up to (and in many instances outshine) the sea of me they share a space with.
"Oldness" lmao
Um Earl is the #1 lyricist of OF and arguably his generation for sure. Some Raps Songs is an actual masterpiece. Kendrick said he was his favorite rapper as well.
Also think Noname is a good matchup for Lauryn. If we being fair Telefone-Sundial is more dense of a run of raps than Blunted on Reality - Miseducation imo.