Land Surveying in the 1700's. It's a Fine Line. | Astrolabe | Circumferentor | Hadley's Chain
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- Join us this week on Woodland Escape as we delve into the fascinating world of 18th-century land surveying with expert Jason Swain. In this episode, Peter and Bob Miller meet with Jason at Kelly Station to uncover the intricate process of land allocation during the 1700s. Jason, a historian and reenactor, shares his extensive knowledge on the tools and techniques used by early surveyors. From the delicate handling of the circumferentor to the precise calculations required for accurate land measurement, this episode offers a hands-on experience of a surveyor's life, including the challenges they faced in the wilderness.
Get ready to learn about the essential role of surveyors in shaping North American territories and the historical significance of their work. Jason guides Peter and Bob through practical demonstrations, highlighting the use of chains for measurement, the importance of clear sightlines, and the skills required to overcome natural obstacles. This episode not only provides valuable historical insights but also offers an engaging look at the experimental archaeology that brings the past to life. Don't miss out on this captivating journey into the past-subscribe to Woodland Escape for more historical explorations and hands-on learning experiences!
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📺 Featuring: Peter Kelly
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My channel used to be called Camp Killemall for reference to who I am. I used to be a land surveyor before I became disabled. Our time was much easier than the folks in the earlier days though. We had digital transits with lasers, a prism pole and bush axes instead of the standard axe. We used flagging tape for marking lines, control points, certain items and so on. That was the most fun job I've ever had. We were outside most of the time and the best crew around. We would get our points to within 0.02 of an inch. The local government surveyors were a little more lax. They were lucky to get within a foot for a point. Those were the good old days.
Here is to the good old days, Dan. Thanks for sharing your story.
As a surveyor in Northern Ontario for over 40 years (now retired), I've seen the progression from chaining to first order GPS. This is a nice introduction to the profession but it only scratched the surface. I have every respect for the crews of a couple hundred years ago...and even some of the modern crews that have to survey in very remote locations. Appreciate the video, thank you.
You know all about the hardships, Northern Ontario is a harsh environment. You’re also spot on about only scratching the surface. Perhaps a sequel required.
@@TheWoodlandEscape Looking forward to the sequel
I always thought that surveying was a fascinating profession. Interesting to hear about it in an historical context.
Thanks for watching.
Good fun Peter!
It was indeed, Rick.
Bumped into a surveyor in the woods the other day. He had a GPS unit and a metal detector. He didn't even have a pistol! Every section he was surveying was plotted on the GPS unit. He had the metal detector to find the metal pins they used to mark the corners. Once he found them he just exposed a bit and painted it red. He didn't walk the lines, just went from pin to pin. That is a job that has certainly changed over time!
It most certainly has, surveyors need not worry anymore about losing their scalps.
Thoreau's Walden got me interested in surveying. I'm now a professional surveyor and while the technology has certainly changed, the concepts have not.
As I’ve just learned, it remains the same process, but with modern instruments. Thanks for your interest.
I could never get my head around Triganometry at school. It wasn't until I did my survey course when I was a young Gunner in the Artillery that the penny dropped and suddenly all became clear. We used to train by completing massive survey schemes with what seemed like a million set ups a day lol. We bcame so proficient that we could could, from driving to banging the first rounds down range in a minute and a half. Frantic and fun days.
Haven’t heard the “ penny dropped” in a good long spell. Teachers can educate until the cows come home, but until one actually applies the knowledge it simple sits in neutral.
I just got back to my 18th Century Surveyor demo this year. Make all my own stuff including a wooden circumferenter
That would be amazing to see.
Incredible to think that 250+ years ago this is how we all started. Talk about being smart!
Not sure we would last too long today doing what had to be done back then. Thanks Mr. Pete...stay well...Robin
You’re spot on, Robin.
❤😊😊 😮as a college educated surveyor, I found this extremely interesting. I finished school , worked 2 years in the real world as a surveyor in the heart of the Appalachia mountains. To extend my life I choose another profession! Mountain men priorities: 1 Land 2 dog 3 wife in that order ! Lol
Interesting progression, lol.
Great choice,i was a surveyor for 47 years,never again.
Very very interesting Peter. Kudos for him mentioning the Mason n Dixon line. I live 3 miles roughly from it. Cross it often.
It remains the most famous line in America to this day!
I'm the daughter of a mid-century land surveyor, now retired. This was fascinating.
I pleased that you found it so, Lynn.
Walking out of the woods to that post stockade is amazing
One of my favorite views of the fortification as well.
Peter, Bob, and Jason What an amazing history lesson and video. Thanks for Sharing and Be Safe!
Glad you enjoyed it
It’s so interesting to learn how these things were done back then. We always learn so many interesting facts from your great channel.
It was a simpler time, but oh so much more harder to get by!
Very interesting. Excellent topic. My grandfather was Wisconsin Lincoln County Surveyor 100 years ago. I have some of his instruments & equipment. He also did work in Guatemala. I have his axe ( one of his many) machete, steel pins… loved his stories about surveying in Northern Wisconsin & some in the U.P. Everything you guys talked about was very interesting
I suspect your grandfather had some pretty amazing stories to tell.
It is a fascinating profession. I've dealt with them often in road construction and recently our homestead for which they had to go back to the last survey done on the property, which was from the late 1800's. Crazy.
It is crazy and there are many legal deeds that have surveys dating to the 1800’s or even earlier.
Peter - Thank you for sharing your Fort and friends on surveillance; straightforward boundaries, a healthy place for "drawing/pulling...the line." M
It is our pleasure and thank you for your interest.
I’ve been enjoying your site for a while. As a Licensed Land Surveyor in Lexington, KY. I really enjoyed this episode. Great job.
Coming from a professional, that is indeed a flattering compliment.
That was really interesting , thanks for sharing!
Glad you enjoyed it
Just want you to know how much I appreciate your well-done and calming videos, they always make my day :)
Well now, your comment has made mine!
Hi friend Peter! I pray this note finds you well and happy. In my younger days (1970's) I worked on a survey party and we did it exactly the same way. The mosquitoes, chiggers and ticks were an absolute nightmare! Down here ( the Gulf coastal US) we also had to contend with vinomous snakes and alligators. It was a rough life "back in your day" and still is! Great stuff, keep up the good work. Kindest regards and best wishes, Pink.
Worked in forestry most of my life, so those flying pests are no strangers to me. Thankfully, no venomous snakes or alligators, lol. We are well and trust you and your clan are as well.
I also surveyed I. The 70 here in Louisiana after the 73 flood on the Mississippi. Contractor for the corp of engineering
@@TheWoodlandEscapeI surveyed here in Louisiana in the 70 / 80s. They have all what you mentioned an plenty of them
The state of Michigan was being surveyed in 1836. That’s when the Alamo battle was being fought. Surveyors here were up against bears, Indians, swamps, more miles of coastline than any state or territory at the time, mosquitoes enough to carry a guy off, and thick forests, etc.
In college, I took a class in surveying. But may have used the transit to view more coeds than Philadelphia rods? sigh
Courtesy of Half Vast Flying
The best part, is your coeds wouldn’t know you were looking, lol.
I'm UK based and in 1965 as a young lad I used to carry out surveys with an older man and we used the same techniques and tools. It was all done with a chain of 66ft and a simple theodolite not unlike that on display in this episode.
There are more modern ways, but the old methods have stood the test of time.
So many memories. My dad would always say, "What in blue blazes" which I erroneously assumed was an exclamation related to fire. I've visited the famous "Ellicott Stone" (re: Wikipedia) which was placed by Andrew Ellicott in 1799 and marked the boundary between the U.S. and Spanish West Florida. The story is fascinating how his crew marked points by building fires along the way which could be seen at a distance. It's amazing how such primitive surveyor tools achieves such accuracy as you mentioned in the video. Thanks for showing us the actual process.
The accuracy astounds me. Some lots surveyed hundreds of years ago are only out fraction of inches using modern tools!
Very interesting as always.
Glad you think so, Don.
I always have been amazed how the land was surveyed when seeing old maps. It took a lot of work. I think I could smell the food too from here. Looked fantastic.
As I always wondered . It was a grand meal indeed with enough to feed three hungry surveyors.
That was a great episode. Thanks for sharing. 10 weeks to the moose hunt.
So close, I can almost taste the tenderloins!
@@TheWoodlandEscape You and me both.
Last Tuesday, the Mason-Dixon Civil War Roundtable had our July picnic at the Mason-Dixon Historical Park about 10 miles from my home in Monongalia County, West Virginia. A member of the local surveyors' group is also in the Roundtable. The local group brought their instruments which are not new and a chain from early 1800's and gave a description of the surveying of the Mason-Dixon Line. Originally it stopped at this location as the Indian party accompanying them refused to go a step farther west as there were hostile Shawnees. In 1767 it stopped at Brown's Hill in the park and was not pushed farther until 1789. There is an exhibit next to Dunkard Creek with the actual line marked. At one end are 2 benches....one says West Virginia and the other Pennsylvania. I will send several pictures to your email address.
Fascinating history indeed and I look forward to seeing the pictures. I thank you for sharing.
Peter, isn't it a bit late to see if your fort is where it ought to be?😊
Oh my, sure hope I don’t have to move it!
Thank you for another informative video, I enjoyed it very much.
So glad!
Interesting video. I don’t think many of us have ever thought about this topic while watching a western or historic movie.
My brother went to surveyor school when he was young, back around 30yrs ago. Not being an outdoorsman like the other men in our family, he was more than a little put off by the conditions, ie. black flies, deer flies, humidity of swampy land, staying in camps, etc…., of the northern Ontario bush during his stage. The final decision to not continue was when a bunch of natives shot at them, presumably over their heads.
Oh my, sounds to me like your brother was born for another purpose.
@@TheWoodlandEscape Yeah, he ended up a computer guy. Did pretty well for himself in that, and definitely suited him more. 😀
OK,guys,when you measure with a chain ,pull it tight,like a banjo string,keep it level,also multiply your percent of error,or just use a Leica 1200R total station,I Surveyed from all sides of the Adirondacks in the tracks of Plank and A.King,it's not fun,I've been involved with bears,coyotes,dogs,rattle snakes,rabid animals,shot at,nasty neighbors,lightning,crazy drivers,storms,tree's falling,floods,car crashes,help from the law-many times,machette wounds,ax wounds,sticks in the eye-ear-nose-legs-massave bee stings,water up to your ass in the winter,90+ all day in the summer in the middle of the road,walking 5 miles to start your work,ledges ,swamps,quick sand,pot fields,electric barbed wire,threats,mean people at the HRRD.lewik......
nice people at the HRRD,Furguson,,I could go on all day.......47 years and working part time now.....
Omg! When you add it all up it sounds pretty darn horrific. However, given the number of years you were at it, I kinda suspect that you enjoyed it! Heck, you’re still at it, lol. Thanks for sharing, you’ve given me my first laugh of the day.
Another fine episode of the Woodland Excape, Peter. I see you have acquired one of Keith Casteels's turkey calls. He is one of the premier 18th-century gun builders down here in the colonies. I have one I got from him at the Gunmakers fair at Kempton Pa. By the way, the Gunmakers fair at Kempton is July 26, 27, and 28 this year. Always the last weekend in July. I know you would really enjoy it.
Hello from Alberta! 😊 Thank you for sharing your walk anout!
You are so welcome!
Good video! Wow what a job! I can' begin to imagine what those folks had to endure! Thanks.
That one and so many other ways of making a living. Folks say they’d like to step back in time might find it a wee bit difficult.
Somewhere in the family records I have an ancestor who was surveying in Pennsylvania if I recall. He was "gutted" by a native who must have objected to the survey. Still, he managed to keep his innards from becoming outards until he could find some pioneer homesteader who sewed him back together. I'll have to see if i can find his name. He might have been an Earl.
That is intense. It was by all accounts a very hazardous profession. Thanks for sharing.
I have heard of that story up here in NEPA. But that happened out near Pittsburg. Also, through family.
Surveying thousands of acres was a major painstaking endeavor it appears! But can you imagine the sights that were seen in virgin forest, the animals and the Native Peoples protests? Years back I had some friends in the Conestoga town, (where the Conestoga Indians were and wagons built) Pa. Area where a pipeline was being built, a natural gas line at that. It was about 100 yards from their property! Not a safe feeling let alone the land being torn up. So when the land grabbers came along I would imagine they weren’t greeted warmly! Lovely leather works by the way and the meal made my mouth watering, in spite of that sick Turkey squaken about, eh? It all looked like fun with a much learned appreciation for all the hard work involved. But with good friends nice as well. Off this subject Peter, now if a fan of Kelly’s Station were to have a desire to send a gift or two that way, do you have a p.o. address by chance? Just checking in case I see a need for something of my making that you could use there. Kind Thanks for more historical learning and appreciation for the works of our ancestors. And by the way, here in southeast Pa. I’m about 10-12 miles from the Maryland/Mason Dixon Line. When I think of the amazing history our lands shared in the early day? It’s really like one big continent with a common and shared history. Many Blessings and I raise my cup for the good and improved health of that Kelly Station Turkey! Good Gobbellin! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania 🦃🦃🦃🦃🦃👍❤️☕️
I thank you sincerely for your offer, Davey, but I’m reluctant to accept gifts. I understand the spirit of it, however Cathy and I do not do this for that purpose. I trust I’ve not offended you. As usual, you always have very interesting comments and I thank you, sir.
@@TheWoodlandEscape Of course I’m not offended Peter. I do understand completely. So just take it as my appreciation for your channel, which is a favorite. Besides, not even a pie in the face would offend me,,,,,,well,,,perhaps the flavor would be a factor to a small degree. A fine as frogs hair weekend to you and Kathy! DaveyJO
My great grandfather was a surveyor, among other things, and we still have his surveyor's compass.
What a treasure to have his compass!
Very interesting, must have been a very dangerous job back then.
Dangerous indeed, but very lucrative if one survived.
Appreciate your efforts and dedication. I'm not one for math. The cabin build was more my speed. I would have been a poor excuse for a surveyor. Thanks again and keep your powder dry!
You and me both. Watch yer top knot.
Very interesting!
Glad you think so!
Very interesting discussion. Thanks for bringing this to us. So much we take for granted today required a tremendous amount of work in the past. If you don't mind my asking, how much land do you and Cathy have up there?
Not at all, we sit on 40 and a bit acres.
Would have liked a bit more explanation of how the various tools worked and were used!
Interesting the amount of work that went into surveying back in the day!
Thanks for the vid Peter!
Noted! We could have filmed for hours.
@@TheWoodlandEscape
I agree!
24:21 "Your right?" My uncle was a surveyor across the Canadian Rockies after WW2. Mostly worked alone for three decades.
One would think a lonely job, but I suspect that’s the way your uncle preferred it.
When the land grants were given say in the Northwest Territory, and a surveying crew went in how did they know where their starting point was in the wilderness? Did they have to use a sextant to locate it or was there a starting point off of an old survey point? Or??? Good topic regarding a subject that I have always wondered about. Thank you!
Don’t quote me on this, but my thinking is, in an uncharted territory the first surveyor simple drop his first pin and everything would begin there. We appreciate your question, your interest and your continued support.
Basically, in in-surveyed lands, it was a random starting point, usually off a river.
I've had to survey a few lines for cottage properties. Not a joke with the price of muskoka property .
I can imagine!
WELL...THAT was FASCINATING! Thanks Emperor Peter and Empress Catherine for yet another fine vid replete with 'wee bits' of amazing history. You bring history into 3D for us...which makes it riveting teaching. I find it soOOOoo interesting to hear what the First Nations people thought about these men with strange sticks = YIKES! Wouldn't we feel the same way? The Kelly compound looks lovely...I am sure it is attracting more and more 'from the past' to share interests = happy for you or rather...tickled pink! LOL! "Mark well the land, it is our most valuable asset." (George Washington). Health and blessings dear ones! :)
Indeed, the only thing we can’t make more of is land. Old George not only marked a lot of land himself, he was I believe the largest landowner in the USA.
Good afternoon from Syracuse NY United States of America
Oh Peter, I sympathize with your opening remarks about being the land owner and having to do the lowly work of ckearing the path with an axe. Back in 2000, I and another lad had to do that for 550 acre plot in the spring. I don't know which was worse the labour or fending off those pesky mosquitoes and black flies! Whew!! Never again...I hope.
Oddly, the pesky things have not been bad this year, until we started to film!
Nova Scotia just checking in.
You seem to check in weekly Hayward and it’s appreciated.
👍great video
Thanks 👍
Do you have any info on how to contact Mr. Terry Crawford ? I also live in Maryland, USA and never knew there were craftsman like that still left in the state.
His email is, ttcrawford810@gmail.com. Not sure that he’s still make stuff to sell, but you can certainly inquire.
@@TheWoodlandEscape thank you very much
I don't know what kind of snake's are were you live but here in south Carolina we are not in short supply of them 😂 very educational video thanks for sharing.
We certainly don’t have the life threatening ones you folks have in your neck of the woods. I suspect more than one surveyor in that era had dealings with them.
There were a lot more in the 18th century! Timber Rattlesnakes were very dangerous in the woods.
We’ve got rattle snakes here in Alberta. Across the border from Montana! They’re seen at least 150 miles North of the border.
Great video Peter and Kathy, interesting history lesson as well. Keep your powder dry
Thanks, will do! You be watching your top knot.
Oh Canada 😄
Excelent😊
Thank you.
No I understand the surveying part What I don't understand is what exactly is an acre or a hectare I've heard these terms banded well I never actually knew how big an act acre was when I was living in the suburbs as a kid we lived on three quarters of an acre and it was kind of trapezoidal shaped now at the front on the street edge but wider in the back by about twice as wide. so have a rough idea of how much land is in three quarters of an acre but I don't understand like what are the usual dimensions of an acre 66 feet by six to six feet? square? or is it differently shaped now living in New England there are lots of rock walls and that's made from the rocks that were dug out of the ground when they were plowing and moved to the borders to the Lenny fields And or acreage The boundaries and boy are they weird shaped they're never perfectly square except for out West which made more sense because the land was flatter and easier to survey no trees. usually you find these stone walls in modern day state parks and national parks. it'd be interesting to see if anybody's ever done any archeology on any of these rock walls to see if anything was dropped or left behind by accident I know they've done this on Oak Island this is a bunch of plots of land that they've surveyed some of them in archeological digs and found some interesting objects like bullets or musket balls buckles coins coins of other different sorts american coins spanish coins english coins kind of interesting.
An acre is composed of 43,560 square feet. It can be any shape even a circle, it just hast meet the square footage to be an even acre. A hectare is a metric measurement containing 10,000 square meters. One hectare is equal to 2.471 acres. Shape really does not matter, just volume.
We’ve hundreds of yards of the stone fences you refer to on our property. I’m sure there are a few treasures buried, but I for one am not going to start moving tons of rocks. I do believe Roger as summarizing what an acre is or up here in Canada, a hectare.
Thank you, Roger for posted a great and understandable answer.