My buddy Mobile Instinct just put up a fantastic video of the first kid to be put on a milk carton ruclips.net/video/aBf3-1INoyE/видео.htmlsi=8xfvnryVtS3_hc_8
LamontAtLarge...Please next time you cover one of these stories, let people know they can go online and look for sex offenders in their areas. If you can without pissing of RUclips, leave links for it so people can see how many PERVERTS are out there and at least know who is living near them.
No, Johnny (1982) disappeared from West Des Moines, Eugene (1984) from Southside of Des Moines and Marc (1986) from the Southwest side of Des Moines. Two different cities, two PDs.
@@WillowWhispersWest Des Moines PD is a peculiar group indeed. The way they treated Noreen was disgustingly disrespectful. Sad to say nothing has changed since then.
Sad it has to be this way, but it does . Your doing the right thing though. I lost my 19 year old son at war, and as a parent, losing a kid, even knowing wtf happened, can ruin the rest of your life. Regrets, what is, what could have been, your imagination putting scenarios together. At least we had definite closer. There weren't many un answered questions for us. Unlike this case. We know what happened. This must have been super destructive to this family, and no doubt a large reason the parents got a divorce.
This story hits home, man. In 1982, I was a newspaper boy in Southern California when a guy and other boy tried to abduct me into a van. I was able to scream and fight my way out of it. I could have been one of these kids. It has affected me to this day. I have bad luck. I've been carjacked and kidnapped twice already in my adult age. I know the feeling of terror, but I truly feel for this kid. I have no doubt this was true. Wow, crazy stuff.
My story is not as extreme as yours, but I think I was almost abducted on Super Bowl Sunday 1996 when I was twelve and I'm a male. I was walking down my alleyway like I usually did, when some old car started coming down the alley. It seemed out of place because I never had seen that car as I was familiar with the cars that usually came down (almost all nicer, newer cars). I moved to the side to let it pass. But it just stopped a few feet away and I could barely see what seemed like a woman and a man. I waved them to go past me, but they just sat there, staring at me. I got creeped out and started briskly walking away and the car started following me. I turned the corner quickly and hid in a holly bush with paranoia. Sure enough, the car stopped at that corner and I saw the man run past me saying "where did he go?" I waited for a while to emerge and as I ran past the alley to run back home on the normal streets, I glanced down the alley and they must have come down the alley from around the block and were parked in the middle of it. Got home freaking out to my parents.
My cousin Taj Narbonne was also one of the first kids on the milk carton. I was the same age at the time so I would see him on my lunch tray everyday for years. He disappeared in 82 also. His step-father murdered him but they never found his body so he is still listed as missing on the Charley Project. #RIPTAJ
I know I would have. When Johnny went missing it forever changed Midwest living! Parents went out of their minds! My brothers were paper boys at the time. I remember after that having to chaperone them on their route! 😢
To imagine him still alive being tortured, etc... Not that any normal parent wants to hear that their child is diseased, but if they are, you can put them to rest. The not knowing... 😬
@@Patienthost my heart breaks over these things, I found a little girl who had been severely abused she was about 3 found out step daddy was the 1 who burned her with cigarettes among other things still have that 35 years later she was saved because she was looking for mom
Many years ago, I had a paper route. I was 12 years old and a man tried to pick me up in his car. I hid behind a bush where a mom and kids were in the yard playing, then ran the rest of the way home! That was my last day with the paper route! I think I dodged a bullet that day. It was in Fairborn OH.
When i had a paper round a man in the street exposed himself and said disgusting things to me. I was only 14yrs old and terrified. I ran home and never delivered newspapers again. This happened in England in the 1970,'s.
That poor family! The truth is that the loss of a child, particularly under circumstances where there is no explanation and no chance of closure, is like condemning the family to a lifetime lingering in absolute hell! Here in Melbourne , an 11 year old girl was almost snatched yesterday but she was saved by a bystander! That bystander saved not only the poor child, but he also saved her family an eternity of grief and heartache.💔🙏🏼😭
The fact that two other kids were kidnapped in the area, all boys of similar age and paper routes were involved makes me think that something was definitely going on such as human trafficking, makes the mom story seem more believable.
Thank you, Lamont, for the side of this story that most of us had not heard about. It would have been better I believe, if Johnnys mom never saw him again. So, unsettling.
I was a milk carton kid in the 80’s. All I really remember was living with a family friend. She never took me to school. I ended up being 3 years behind my schooling. The lady that took me was actually my babysitter. She had me for 4 years. I had no idea I was on a milk carton until my grandma passed away in 2002. The family was cleaning out the house to get ready to sell, and in a box in the back of a hall closet was a saved milk carton with my face on it. To make matters worse, my baby sister was friends with the girl named Amber Hagerman. The little girl that the amber alert was named after.
@@kateclover2482 yes. She was sentenced 25 years no parole. About 3 years into her 25, she died of cancer. As a child I was sick. Was in the hospital once when a stranger told me I had to live with an aunt. The stranger I found out years later was CPS. The “aunt” was my foster mom. I had childhood leukemia. They tested my DNA to my “mothers” it didn’t match. Not even close. The doctors confronted my “mother”, she confessed to everything. I believe she confessed cause I would of died without proper treatment.
@@tooldog5062 he did not reject his family. When he visited his mother as an adult he told her he was afraid for himself and for his family. He was kidnapped as a child and he was used to lure other kids who were used in sex trafficking and sold to pedophiles .. turned out there was the younger guy who helped induct Johnny into this who stepped forward and told authorities his involvement in the group who took Johnny and they were taking kids all over the country and using them for sex and drug parties that were part of a ring that included men in high places in government and other offices .. the young man who admitted to knowing Johnny and took a polygraph about his involvement passed the test..later on down the line this guy wound up dead.. the authorities tried to discredit this guy because he was telling unbelieveable stories naming names of men in high places.. others also who knew this guy also stepped up and told the same stories. And they also were being discredited by higher ups in places in government but they also passed lie detector tests..
I was walking home from school one day when I was sixteen years old. A man slowed his car next to me and asked if I wanted a ride. I told him no and kept walking. He must have circled around because less than ten minutes later he pulled up next to me again. He said, “I don’t mean to bother you but are you sure you don’t want a ride? You could smoke a joint or drink a beer?” Once again I responded with a resounding, “no.” He drove off and I didn’t see him again. That was the eighties. There was no such thing as the internet or cell phones. No social media. No Amber or other emergency alerts. Very few places had surveillance cameras. There was no DNA evidence testing. Serial killers, rapists and kidnappers had a lot less deterrents than they do today. I’m so glad I made the right decision that day. Thinking back I probably dodged a bullet…literally. Who knows what could have happened to me? Prayers for all missing, abused and exploited children. 🙏🏻
Happened to me I was 14 living in upstate ny I was walking home from my best friends house and a man looked like in his 20s stopped his white car and asked me if I wanted a ride he said it’s cold out I’ll take you home and I said no . He got scared because lucky me a police car was driving down and looked at us and the cop turned around and asked me who that was if I knew him I said no I’m walking minding my business . I’m so happy the police officer showed up on time . The man did get stopped and questioned
I took a paper route with my older brother in the 4th grade we lived in Ohio. I would walk a different route than my brother so I was alone most times. I remember always seeing a truck follow me and I swear I thought he was gonna kidnap me. I decided to quit after seeing the truck a few times. Glad I did because I honestly believe he was planning to take me.
A quick note. Noreen Gosch did an interview last year for the Des Moines Register. She said that when Johnny got the paper route, his parents and him agreed that one of them would always accompany him on his route since he was young. The night before he disappeared he told his parents he thought he was old enough to do the route himself as some of the other boys did it themselves. His parents told him no. He acquiesced to their request, or so it seemed. He was supposed to come into his parents’ room that morning to wake up his dad. But he didn’t. Instead he left by himself that morning, unfortunately.
It was someone who had watched the boy every morning and seen that he was by himself that day and took the opportunity to kidnap him. I have a 12 year old and I feel like he is not ready to walk to the corner store by himself. A parent knows these things and it’s definitely protection for their children
@@TheMsdeedee85 I also have a 12 year old son who will be 13 next month on the 4th and even I know he isn’t able to walk anywhere alone such as the store,etc.
I live in AZ. In 1984, a girl named Christy Ann Fornoff was abducted by a cable TV installer. She also was doing her paper route. She was 13 years old, I believe. She was found though---had been murdered by the Cable TV man. It was a horrible thing to have happen to an innocent child. Shook me to the core. (Jan Griffiths).
As an Iowan, this story always makes the news on the anniversary of his disappearance as does Eugene Martin and my cousin, that I never knew as I wasn’t born until the 90s, Marc Allen. From 1982-1986 three boys around the same age disappeared and have not been found. Things like this doesn’t happen too often in Iowa and so when it does happen, it’s all anyone talks about for quite sometime. Thank you for the video Lamont, keep up the great work!
I remember all three boys coming up missing. Sorry about your cousin Mark. You should have gotten to know him! Yes, it changed the parenting style of every family in the Midwest. I lived outside Davenport at the time I was 16. It was in the papers for quite some time. When your cousin went missing, him being the 3rd, I heard your Aunt once say...she thought Mark's case wasn't getting enough coverage. If I remember right, she was very vocal about making legislation to get a quicker response by law enforcement. ❤😊❤
I remember all 3 boys missing as well We lived outside of Des Moines but my heart went out to everyone who was family, friends or neighbors.. I wish the cases could be solved.. There are some sick people out there to do such a thing.. 🙏💖
Bet you didn’t know milk carton were used to get us use to missing kids . The number to missing and exploited children happens to be the number to Clinton foundation that actually traffics children ,,,,it’s in the OIG report of 2018 ,,,,,Clinton and her crimes against children
It was a great idea. Milk cartons go everywhere. I remember reading the missing children's profiles. I always felt so awful for these missing kids. I studied them just in case I saw one of the missing. 😮😮😮
I personally feel it was someone playing a prank on her. As a mother, I would NOT have let my son walk back out that door. I don't know how any parent survives this. The pain, anguish, and guilt would eat you alive. Now that they have task forces for sex trafficking, hopefully someone finds out something. Someone needs some type of justice for this .
I agree it probably wasn't Johnny, which is very sad. I watched an interview with Johnny's Dad once, decades after the abduction, and he all but said Noreen made up the story to renew interest in the case. I didn't like how he basically threw her under the bus. Of course I don't know these people, but from what I can tell Noreen Gosch is her son's hero, a remarkable lady, and deserves peace and closure for her family and her son.
I think he was forced to go back out that front door otherwise the guy who was with him would have probably done something bad to her. So, I don't think he had any choice but to leave.
I wondered what the conversation was like? And who the other man was? How did Johnny find her since she moved from the neighborhood they lived in? What didn't she stopped from leaving? She hadn't seen him for a long time and then let him go just like that? I wouldn't haven't let him go. Too many unanswered questions.
I can never say a bad word about Noreen Gosch and her unfathomable grief and ordeal, but a few years after the abduction she was counseled by a private investigator to do or say whatever was necessary to keep Johnny's case on the radar.
I certainly do remember this story in the news. I also remember seeing his picture on the back of milk cartons, newspapers, etc. God bless his mom and dad and siblings, if there were any. Their anguish and sorry must have been horrific. Thanks for remembering him (and so many others), Lamont. Good reporting.
Eugene Martin was also a paper boy. You should do a story on him as well. His story does not get near the coverage of Johnny Gosch. Please look into Eugene Martin's disappearance.
I was 2 years old when he came up missing, I am from Des Moines Iowa. His mom still trys to keep his story alive for everyone. Because of him in School they teached us the dangers of strangers and they still use his story to do that to this very day. I can not imagine the pain of his dad and mother. But i do not think any Iowan will ever forget Johnny at all.
Made me think of Adam Walsh, whom I think also was kidnapped, sexually assaulted and then murdered. His father, John Walsh was reportedly so torn up that he'd became the host of 'America's Most Wanted.' I think he'd related Johnny's case on the show before,too.
Have you seen the film, “ I know my name is Steven?” It was made after a boy named “Steven” was kidnapped. He escaped as a teen years later saving another child whom his kidnappers took after Steven. Sadly after years of being reunited with his family Steven died in a motorcycle accident. His brother was sent to prison for murder I heard. The family broke apart from the stress and trauma. Very sad.
I remember the case of Adam Walsh was first off. I was a 24 year old mom with a 3 and a half year old boy. That story sickened me and scared me! Then came Johnny's story. My son was almost 5. I couldn't believe that anyone could do that to a young boy! I thought of my older brother who'd had a morning paper route years ago in the late 60s. I shuddered! I'm nearly 67 and grew up in a small town next to a bigger one in south east Iowa. These things just didn't seem to happen while we were growing up!!! ....Then I now think back to an incident that happened to me when I was young as a Brownie. I became a Brownie scout in 2nd grade, (I think, maybe 3rd). We had our meetings after school at the time at school in our classroom. I was a dilly-dallier and left the school after all the other girls had left. I had just left the school and had barely left the front of the building, when a guy in an older (I still can see it in my mind, an old older Chevy wagon!!) car slowed down, flagged me down, rolled down his window and asked me something. I couldn't hear him well enough to understand what he was asking but I felt apprehensive about him talking to me and stated to walk fast and broke into a run!!! I did not know him! ! He wasn't one of my friends' dad! I just hurried away!!! I never did tell my parents about it, I don't know why. I just must have put it out of my mind! I told my dad about it about 6 months ago!! He was 96, me 66!! He was surprised about it and I'm sure relieved that I'd run!! He passed away 3 months ago.
@@sandrarogers1200 I am so sorry about the loss of your dad. I know how horrible it is as i lost ky father inb2013. God Bless your dad and your family.
Johnny's my age. I lived in Iowa near West Des Moines at the time. This case is very near and dear to my heart. Thanks for covering this!! Love your channel!!
Etan Patz, who was 6 years old, disappeared in NYC in 1979 and was the first child on the milk cartoons. His disappearance started it. I was very young at the time he disappeared, but I remember it so vividly. Thanks, Lamont, for bringing this tragic story about Johnny to us ❤️!!!
Lamont did not say the first, he said one of the first....implying one of the poor earlier souls stuck on a milk bottle.....really no need to get hyped over
I lived in Baltimore City and was delivering the News American News Paper when Johnny came up missing. It made everyone in the community aware of the newspaper kids. Great story telling as always Lamont!!!!
I’m at a loss for words but as a mother, if that had been me, not knowing would have driven me insane. It’s possible the mother found comfort in writing the book and maybe the “visit” from her son, made up or not, gave her a way to cope. As for me, I would be in the state mental hospital!
Me too! When my daughter was in 5th grade her dad went to pick her up from school, he called me and said they told him she had already been picked up....my 9yr old....when I say I lost my entire f*****g mind OMG! She was actually in the gym! But it took them and my husband at least 4hrs to calm me down! I turned into a complete lunatic my rage and my wrath was through the roof. My daughter has been home schooled ever since!!!
I believe I was almost kidnapped as a child. Lured by a girl who was in my class that I thought was my friend. Now when I think back, maybe she was pretending to make friends with me. I think she was used as bait. Some kidnappers do this. It’s a long story but there were a couple red flags that felt off with me. My parents saved me. I never forget that day and how I was forever grateful to my parents. I never forget my now late parents. They were my heroes that day.
I have been studying this case since 1982. I even read his mom's book. Just sad. I think the cases of the boys are all related. How horrible for all the families. Just hell on earth.
Lamont - thank you for all these videos ! I love that you care - it's hearbreaking how many evil people target our innocent children - I don't know why exactly I watch these true crime story's - I think it's because I have a passion for justice and solving mysteries - I do think that you do a fantastic job - and it is important to the victim and their families that they are not forgotten . Thx Lamont - you're wonderful ! God bless.
They should still do this on milk again. Would help spread the word about missing kids. Should also do it for adults. If it could help find just one person it would be worth it!!
I was his age and lived in Des Moines when this happened....l havent been right since....and now my time is about done.....dont forget the Martin kid that it happened to also.
The kind of children that are normally trafficked are runaways and system kids. The kind nobody comes looking for. Nobody traffics children whose faces will be all over the media.
There is an entire story as to who and what group was suspected to have been involved, according to the boy who said he had seen him. That is a whole other long story.
Human trafficking think it's bigger then drug's now. How much drugs gets confiscated at borders? Some procent. There's to many people in high places and to much money to seize all drugs. Same thing with child trafficking
Johnny would be my age now. I remember seeing his face on the milk carton. It's obvious he was kidnapped by someone in that car the other boys saw. I highly doubt this case will ever be solved. So very sad.
But isn't that crazy though? I've heard of several cases where it was the first time a person did something out of their norm or the parents allowed something for the first time and something horrible happen. It almost seems as if it was a weird twist of fate that caused it.
Very sad and like you say what's worse your child being murdered or being forced into prostitution as a child. I don't think his mother and father will ever have peace. Thanks for this story Lamont.
Your definitely right Lamont, this is a very unusual case. Yes, I do remember when those missing kids faces were put on those milk cartons. I will be 65 next week. Time flies. I also remember the paper deliveries. My dad used to get the Sunday paper delivered and I would always get the comics pages and use silly putty and make 😅copies of the cartoons. Those definitely were the days. Sad, these things happened back then too!❤😢❤😢❤
Thank you for covering this case/going to the locations. I've wanted to see/maybe even go to them ever since I heard about this case decades ago. It still haunts me to this day. It's such a beautiful, quiet neighborhood that you would never suspect anything bad to have happened.
The newspaper wasn't only really important, but people in the neighborhood learned who the neighborhood kids were. Paper routes and that small system really served to tie the 'COMMUNITY' together, back when it still operated like a community. Nothing replaced that familiarity, for neighborhoods, once people switched to digital access for their news. I still miss the flyer days.. when we would get all the flyers and I'd go through each one.. big old mess of newspaper on the table and it was great lol.
Ronald Reagan was president… he mentioned the community was privileged enough to get angry from receiving no newspaper at their door step. They assumed he “over slept”. Johnny might’ve hated his parents and met someone he trusted. The family may have not known them. Their dog went home like nothing happened. Why is he not found successfully living as a privileged adult?? He may have been kept by someone but not for long. Did he come home for money? Why his mom so secretive about this hope that she discovered and tend to share it ? Many holes are in this story. I read in the comments that he had half-siblings to share attention from back on the middle class era. We now have the internet, cameras, zoom, apps… did he change his identity?? Why would someone want to be gone so long if the parents still alive?? Some kind of mistake happened and one person know about it. If they weren’t with God then especially how the times is now… like the end of days. They’ve probably didn’t make it beforehand. Just my humble opinion…..🤷♀️
It's a good thing you're doing to talk about these and other unsolved cases. It renews interest plus it's possible someone could remember something they didn't think was important at the time. Even the kids grown up now may have new perspectives on the environment.
I think it affected the mom so deeply that she lucid dreamed the encounter and truly believes she met her son. As a parent I know that if I had this occur in reality, weather my kid was an adult or not...they are absolutely NOT walking back out that door. If I have to kill the other guy or not. She didn't ask for this whole thing to happen so I have no reason to believe she'd make up such a thing in bad faith, just that it is real to her. These stories have a profound effect on the minds or parents when putting yourself in their shoes.
I would always recognize my daughter…always. How would a mother not recognize her son after all those years?? I would have called the police strait away. Doesn’t matter how old I am, always my “child”.
Didn’t you hear what was said on the video? Supposedly when Johnny showed up to his mother, his hair was long and dark, as opposed to his natural blonde when he was gone, plus even though your child will always be your child of course, but think more realistically, if your child were to disappear at 12, never to see him/her again until he was way grown 27 year old adult, by then, of course you will not just recognize him/her (at least not at first sight), especially if physically he/her looks alot different, your child is basically like a stranger by now, so you have to basically start treating them as if your were meeting someone new (albeit still being happy to see them). Plus what good would it really do to call the police, if Johnny by then was an adult, and left on his own volition with the other mysterious man, so really what could the police had done there.
@@absatwell8163 You say that because I assume you’ve never had a child disappear and was blessed to have been able to see them grow up to the fullest, it’s not the same as if you had stopped seeing your child at 12 to never see them again until they’re in their late 20s, by then they look different, talk different, different personality etc. it’s basically like meeting a whole new different person. Not saying you still wouldn’t love them as your child, but you’re basically still meeting someone new.
@@dianarendon5845 Thank goodness I’ve never had a child go missing and I’m sorry if you have. I could only begin to imagine. My child has specific moles and birthmarks as well. I just feel that I would know is all.
Yeah well If your child started saying politicians and law enforcement were behind child trafficking you wouldn't have the option too call anyone for help
My buddy Mobile Instinct just put up a fantastic video of the first kid to be put on a milk carton
ruclips.net/video/aBf3-1INoyE/видео.htmlsi=8xfvnryVtS3_hc_8
I remember when this was all over the news, and when it happened Lamont.
I use to get the newspaper🗞️💖👍🏿 and would call when mines was late or of course stolen..
Especially the sunday🗞️ I couldn't wait for sunday's to come ..
I remember this
LamontAtLarge...Please next time you cover one of these stories, let people know they can go online and look for sex offenders in their areas. If you can without pissing of RUclips, leave links for it so people can see how many PERVERTS are out there and at least know who is living near them.
Three disappearances in one neighbourhood? That cannot be a coincidence. Someone in the neighbourhood is up to no good.
No, Johnny (1982) disappeared from West Des Moines, Eugene (1984) from Southside of Des Moines and Marc (1986) from the Southwest side of Des Moines. Two different cities, two PDs.
@@WillowWhispersWest Des Moines PD is a peculiar group indeed. The way they treated Noreen was disgustingly disrespectful. Sad to say nothing has changed since then.
Yeah, your U.S government and that is a true fact.
This is why my daughter isn’t allowed outside by herself.
How it should be. I never allowed my kids outside alone either. I was a kid in the 80s and my mom didn't allow us to leave the yard without her.
Sad it has to be this way, but it does . Your doing the right thing though. I lost my 19 year old son at war, and as a parent, losing a kid, even knowing wtf happened, can ruin the rest of your life. Regrets, what is, what could have been, your imagination putting scenarios together. At least we had definite closer. There weren't many un answered questions for us. Unlike this case. We know what happened. This must have been super destructive to this family, and no doubt a large reason the parents got a divorce.
There's a special place in hell for people who hurt children!
Amen !
This story hits home, man. In 1982, I was a newspaper boy in Southern California when a guy and other boy tried to abduct me into a van. I was able to scream and fight my way out of it. I could have been one of these kids. It has affected me to this day. I have bad luck. I've been carjacked and kidnapped twice already in my adult age. I know the feeling of terror, but I truly feel for this kid. I have no doubt this was true. Wow, crazy stuff.
My story is not as extreme as yours, but I think I was almost abducted on Super Bowl Sunday 1996 when I was twelve and I'm a male. I was walking down my alleyway like I usually did, when some old car started coming down the alley. It seemed out of place because I never had seen that car as I was familiar with the cars that usually came down (almost all nicer, newer cars). I moved to the side to let it pass. But it just stopped a few feet away and I could barely see what seemed like a woman and a man. I waved them to go past me, but they just sat there, staring at me. I got creeped out and started briskly walking away and the car started following me. I turned the corner quickly and hid in a holly bush with paranoia. Sure enough, the car stopped at that corner and I saw the man run past me saying "where did he go?" I waited for a while to emerge and as I ran past the alley to run back home on the normal streets, I glanced down the alley and they must have come down the alley from around the block and were parked in the middle of it. Got home freaking out to my parents.
@groovymovie84 packers patriots superbowl?
No, that was in January of 1997.
You won't get carjacked in Sand Point, Idaho.
@footballlvnlady i forgot. Lol. 97 patriots 98 broncos
Three boys in the same area? Coincidence?
Hell to the NO.
They have a someone in that neighborhood........
Plus, in my opinion anyway, there's a striking resemblance between all three.
I wish his parents would get some kind of closure.❤❤❤
I pray that they do. Noreen is amazing. She’s helped countless families of missing children.
My cousin Taj Narbonne was also one of the first kids on the milk carton. I was the same age at the time so I would see him on my lunch tray everyday for years. He disappeared in 82 also. His step-father murdered him but they never found his body so he is still listed as missing on the Charley Project. #RIPTAJ
That's terrible. I'm so sorry for your loss.
I can't imagine the pain you must have felt, seeing your loved ones face on that milk carton. 💔
Im sorry for your loss. I found out about the charley project maybe 6 years ago.
That’s horrendous
So sorry for your loss ❤
40 years...
Parents must have lost it.
Never knowing makes you feel so helpless
Yes it's probably the worst case when your kid disappears and you don't even have his body and you don't know what happened 😢
I know I would have. When Johnny went missing it forever changed Midwest living! Parents went out of their minds! My brothers were paper boys at the time. I remember after that having to chaperone them on their route! 😢
To imagine him still alive being tortured, etc...
Not that any normal parent wants to hear that their child is diseased, but if they are, you can put them to rest. The not knowing... 😬
@@Patienthost my heart breaks over these things, I found a little girl who had been severely abused she was about 3 found out step daddy was the 1 who burned her with cigarettes among other things still have that 35 years later she was saved because she was looking for mom
@@edithk2997that's you in your profile picture
I remember my family saying you don’t want to end up on a milk carton. We getting old
I'm from Des Moines, and this story is STILL used locally to remind kids to be safe and aware at all times 😳.
That's good
Many years ago, I had a paper route. I was 12 years old and a man tried to pick me up in his car. I hid behind a bush where a mom and kids were in the yard playing, then ran the rest of the way home! That was my last day with the paper route! I think I dodged a bullet that day. It was in Fairborn OH.
When i had a paper round a man in the street exposed himself and said disgusting things to me. I was only 14yrs old and terrified.
I ran home and never delivered newspapers again. This happened in England in the 1970,'s.
That poor family! The truth is that the loss of a child, particularly under circumstances where there is no explanation and no chance of closure, is like condemning the family to a lifetime lingering in absolute hell! Here in Melbourne , an 11 year old girl was almost snatched yesterday but she was saved by a bystander! That bystander saved not only the poor child, but he also saved her family an eternity of grief and heartache.💔🙏🏼😭
The fact that two other kids were kidnapped in the area, all boys of similar age and paper routes were involved makes me think that something was definitely going on such as human trafficking, makes the mom story seem more believable.
Johnny, was supposed to wake his father that morning he did not he snuck out of the house with the dog. The dog came back home John he did not.😢
Thank you, Lamont, for the side of this story that most of us had not heard about. It would have been better I believe, if Johnnys mom never saw him again. So, unsettling.
I was a milk carton kid in the 80’s. All I really remember was living with a family friend. She never took me to school. I ended up being 3 years behind my schooling. The lady that took me was actually my babysitter. She had me for 4 years. I had no idea I was on a milk carton until my grandma passed away in 2002. The family was cleaning out the house to get ready to sell, and in a box in the back of a hall closet was a saved milk carton with my face on it.
To make matters worse, my baby sister was friends with the girl named Amber Hagerman. The little girl that the amber alert was named after.
GOD BLESS YOU
Thank god you made it .
How did you get home? Did she go to jail?
@@kateclover2482 yes. She was sentenced 25 years no parole. About 3 years into her 25, she died of cancer.
As a child I was sick. Was in the hospital once when a stranger told me I had to live with an aunt. The stranger I found out years later was CPS. The “aunt” was my foster mom. I had childhood leukemia. They tested my DNA to my “mothers” it didn’t match. Not even close. The doctors confronted my “mother”, she confessed to everything.
I believe she confessed cause I would of died without proper treatment.
It's not a coincidence about Amber.These sick people have networks.
So sad. That kid has been missing as long as I’ve been alive. Born 01/82.
Hello, Lamont. I cannot imagine the levels of anguish of the young man's parents, not knowing what happened to their child.
johnny came back as an adult as i heard and as an adult he rejected his family! i remember that in the 90s it made the news one evening!
They never found out what happened to him.
@@Dee-743 _No, they never found out. Lamont At Large alluded to the fact that the young man's whereabouts were never known
@@tooldog5062 he did not reject his family. When he visited his mother as an adult he told her he was afraid for himself and for his family. He was kidnapped as a child and he was used to lure other kids who were used in sex trafficking and sold to pedophiles .. turned out there was the younger guy who helped induct Johnny into this who stepped forward and told authorities his involvement in the group who took Johnny and they were taking kids all over the country and using them for sex and drug parties that were part of a ring that included men in high places in government and other offices .. the young man who admitted to knowing Johnny and took a polygraph about his involvement passed the test..later on down the line this guy wound up dead.. the authorities tried to discredit this guy because he was telling unbelieveable stories naming names of men in high places.. others also who knew this guy also stepped up and told the same stories. And they also were being discredited by higher ups in places in government but they also passed lie detector tests..
@@tooldog5062Show us proof, links
I was walking home from school one day when I was sixteen years old. A man slowed his car next to me and asked if I wanted a ride. I told him no and kept walking. He must have circled around because less than ten minutes later he pulled up next to me again. He said, “I don’t mean to bother you but are you sure you don’t want a ride? You could smoke a joint or drink a beer?” Once again I responded with a resounding, “no.” He drove off and I didn’t see him again. That was the eighties. There was no such thing as the internet or cell phones. No social media. No Amber or other emergency alerts. Very few places had surveillance cameras. There was no DNA evidence testing. Serial killers, rapists and kidnappers had a lot less deterrents than they do today. I’m so glad I made the right decision that day. Thinking back I probably dodged a bullet…literally. Who knows what could have happened to me? Prayers for all missing, abused and exploited children. 🙏🏻
Yeah happened to me as well a few times. Also guys naked in their windows. Just pervs everywhere. I’d tell my mom. One guy did get arrested for that.
Happened to me I was 14 living in upstate ny I was walking home from my best friends house and a man looked like in his 20s stopped his white car and asked me if I wanted a ride he said it’s cold out I’ll take you home and I said no . He got scared because lucky me a police car was driving down and looked at us and the cop turned around and asked me who that was if I knew him I said no I’m walking minding my business . I’m so happy the police officer showed up on time . The man did get stopped and questioned
I took a paper route with my older brother in the 4th grade we lived in Ohio. I would walk a different route than my brother so I was alone most times. I remember always seeing a truck follow me and I swear I thought he was gonna kidnap me. I decided to quit after seeing the truck a few times. Glad I did because I honestly believe he was planning to take me.
I can’t imagine the pain and suffering these poor folks went through. 😢
Noreen Gosch wrote a book titled Why Johnny can’t come home. I highly recommend this book. There’s so much more to this story.
Too many monsters in this world and I hate them.
So sad 😞
A quick note. Noreen Gosch did an interview last year for the Des Moines Register. She said that when Johnny got the paper route, his parents and him agreed that one of them would always accompany him on his route since he was young. The night before he disappeared he told his parents he thought he was old enough to do the route himself as some of the other boys did it themselves. His parents told him no. He acquiesced to their request, or so it seemed. He was supposed to come into his parents’ room that morning to wake up his dad. But he didn’t. Instead he left by himself that morning, unfortunately.
Wow😢😢😢😢😢😢 thank you for sharing this information!
It was someone who had watched the boy every morning and seen that he was by himself that day and took the opportunity to kidnap him. I have a 12 year old and I feel like he is not ready to walk to the corner store by himself. A parent knows these things and it’s definitely protection for their children
@@TheMsdeedee85 I also have a 12 year old son who will be 13 next month on the 4th and even I know he isn’t able to walk anywhere alone such as the store,etc.
@@TheMsdeedee85quite possibly but it’s five minutes away from I-35 and I-80 exit is 5 minutes away after you enter I-35
@@TheMsdeedee85that's you in your profile picture
You walked right by my house! lol
That’s pretty cool!!
I live in AZ. In 1984, a girl named Christy Ann Fornoff was abducted by a cable TV installer. She also was doing her paper route. She was 13 years old, I believe. She was found though---had been murdered by the Cable TV man. It was a horrible thing to have happen to an innocent child. Shook me to the core. (Jan Griffiths).
As an Iowan, this story always makes the news on the anniversary of his disappearance as does Eugene Martin and my cousin, that I never knew as I wasn’t born until the 90s, Marc Allen. From 1982-1986 three boys around the same age disappeared and have not been found. Things like this doesn’t happen too often in Iowa and so when it does happen, it’s all anyone talks about for quite sometime. Thank you for the video Lamont, keep up the great work!
So your cousin, Marc Allen was one that went missing. So sorry to hear that, can't imagine what you're family went through. Blessings 🙏🌄
I've heard of Marc Allen. There isn't much info about him tho like Johnny and Eugene.
I remember all three boys coming up missing. Sorry about your cousin Mark. You should have gotten to know him! Yes, it changed the parenting style of every family in the Midwest. I lived outside Davenport at the time I was 16. It was in the papers for quite some time. When your cousin went missing, him being the 3rd, I heard your Aunt once say...she thought Mark's case wasn't getting enough coverage. If I remember right, she was very vocal about making legislation to get a quicker response by law enforcement. ❤😊❤
I remember all 3 boys missing as well We lived outside of Des Moines but my heart went out to everyone who was family, friends or neighbors.. I wish the cases could be solved.. There are some sick people out there to do such a thing.. 🙏💖
I can't imagine the pain these parents went through loosing their child all those years.
Remember to stay hydrated while you are out and about.
🥃
So sad we have to have any children on milk cartons. 😭
Now they are on the back of mailbox ads😑
Bet you didn’t know milk carton were used to get us use to missing kids . The number to missing and exploited children happens to be the number to Clinton foundation that actually traffics children ,,,,it’s in the OIG report of 2018 ,,,,,Clinton and her crimes against children
It was a great idea. Milk cartons go everywhere. I remember reading the missing children's profiles. I always felt so awful for these missing kids. I studied them just in case I saw one of the missing. 😮😮😮
Your right
@@jaya-squishiehuntr019there’s too many missing kids.
I personally feel it was someone playing a prank on her. As a mother, I would NOT have let my son walk back out that door. I don't know how any parent survives this. The pain, anguish, and guilt would eat you alive. Now that they have task forces for sex trafficking, hopefully someone finds out something. Someone needs some type of justice for this .
I agree it probably wasn't Johnny, which is very sad. I watched an interview with Johnny's Dad once, decades after the abduction, and he all but said Noreen made up the story to renew interest in the case. I didn't like how he basically threw her under the bus. Of course I don't know these people, but from what I can tell Noreen Gosch is her son's hero, a remarkable lady, and deserves peace and closure for her family and her son.
I think it was fabricated. You're telling me she just let 2 strangers into her home at 2am?
I think he was forced to go back out that front door otherwise the guy who was with him would have probably done something bad to her. So, I don't think he had any choice but to leave.
I wondered what the conversation was like? And who the other man was? How did Johnny find her since she moved from the neighborhood they lived in? What didn't she stopped from leaving? She hadn't seen him for a long time and then let him go just like that? I wouldn't haven't let him go. Too many unanswered questions.
I can never say a bad word about Noreen Gosch and her unfathomable grief and ordeal, but a few years after the abduction she was counseled by a private investigator to do or say whatever was necessary to keep Johnny's case on the radar.
They Really should go back to putting missing children on milk cartons !! Thank you Lamont for another interesting Walk about ! Be Safe ✌️🌹
Kids today don't drink cartons of milk like we did in school, they drink juice and soda.
I once ran away and my parents didn't even know I was gone.
Wtf kind of parents do you have?
I hope they find some closure on this boy missing all these years 😢😮
As a mother this makes me cry 😭
I certainly do remember this story in the news. I also remember seeing his picture on the back of milk cartons, newspapers, etc. God bless his mom and dad and siblings, if there were any. Their anguish and sorry must have been horrific. Thanks for remembering him (and so many others), Lamont. Good reporting.
He must have been killed as they never grund him! 💔🍒 Sorry such a fine boy!
That's why!
This is one of about 10 true crime cases that has haunted me for years. I truly hope the Gosch family finds the answers they deserve.
Yes I agree it has so many strange twists.
Eugene Martin was also a paper boy. You should do a story on him as well. His story does not get near the coverage of Johnny Gosch. Please look into Eugene Martin's disappearance.
I was 2 years old when he came up missing, I am from Des Moines Iowa. His mom still trys to keep his story alive for everyone. Because of him in School they teached us the dangers of strangers and they still use his story to do that to this very day. I can not imagine the pain of his dad and mother. But i do not think any Iowan will ever forget Johnny at all.
Made me think of Adam Walsh, whom I think also was kidnapped, sexually assaulted and then murdered. His father, John Walsh was reportedly so torn up that he'd became the host of 'America's Most Wanted.' I think he'd related Johnny's case on the show before,too.
Have you seen the film, “ I know my name is Steven?” It was made after a boy named “Steven” was kidnapped. He escaped as a teen years later saving another child whom his kidnappers took after Steven. Sadly after years of being reunited with his family Steven died in a motorcycle accident. His brother was sent to prison for murder I heard. The family broke apart from the stress and trauma. Very sad.
I remember the case of Adam Walsh was first off. I was a 24 year old mom with a 3 and a half year old boy. That story sickened me and scared me! Then came Johnny's story. My son was almost 5. I couldn't believe that anyone could do that to a young boy! I thought of my older brother who'd had a morning paper route years ago in the late 60s. I shuddered! I'm nearly 67 and grew up in a small town next to a bigger one in south east Iowa. These things just didn't seem to happen while we were growing up!!! ....Then I now think back to an incident that happened to me when I was young as a Brownie. I became a Brownie scout in 2nd grade, (I think, maybe 3rd). We had our meetings after school at the time at school in our classroom. I was a dilly-dallier and left the school after all the other girls had left. I had just left the school and had barely left the front of the building, when a guy in an older (I still can see it in my mind, an old older Chevy wagon!!) car slowed down, flagged me down, rolled down his window and asked me something. I couldn't hear him well enough to understand what he was asking but I felt apprehensive about him talking to me and stated to walk fast and broke into a run!!! I did not know him! ! He wasn't one of my friends' dad! I just hurried away!!! I never did tell my parents about it, I don't know why. I just must have put it out of my mind! I told my dad about it about 6 months ago!! He was 96, me 66!! He was surprised about it and I'm sure relieved that I'd run!! He passed away 3 months ago.
@@sandrarogers1200 I am so sorry about the loss of your dad. I know how horrible it is as i lost ky father inb2013. God Bless your dad and your family.
@@Callmeonmyshell13. That is a gut-wrenching movie. Haunting.
From a newspaper “The dog came home on its own, investigators say. Johnny never did.”
I read in a few case summaries the dog somehow made its way home by itself
Johnny's my age. I lived in Iowa near West Des Moines at the time. This case is very near and dear to my heart. Thanks for covering this!! Love your channel!!
Thanks my brother for this post.
Etan Patz, who was 6 years old, disappeared in NYC in 1979 and was the first child on the milk cartoons. His disappearance started it. I was very young at the time he disappeared, but I remember it so vividly. Thanks, Lamont, for bringing this tragic story about Johnny to us ❤️!!!
Yes, he was.
Lamont did not say the first, he said one of the first....implying one of the poor earlier souls stuck on a milk bottle.....really no need to get hyped over
@@daisybelle1025 Don’t think any hype was intended. Don’t think knowledge works that way.
I was thinking about that when I saw this being about a child on a milk carton. I don’t think they ever found Etan.
@@JulieR73 They did not.
Myy brother was attacked in the 50's thank God he was able to fight him off.
Terrible what our children have to be aware of
I remember when this happened. Stay safe out there, and rock on, Lamont!💜✌
I lived in Baltimore City and was delivering the News American News Paper when Johnny came up missing.
It made everyone in the community aware of the newspaper kids.
Great story telling as always Lamont!!!!
I don’t know about the mother story because opening the door in the middle of the night for two men that’s just off the wall to me.
How did he know were mom lives
She moved
That strange part to me
I remember that. I almost hated buying milk because I would see all those poor kids! 😢😢😢
This is just weird. I would be so devastated if this would happen to one of my kids. God Bless you, Lamont! Stay safe! 🙏❤️
I’m at a loss for words but as a mother, if that had been me, not knowing would have driven me insane. It’s possible the mother found comfort in writing the book and maybe the “visit” from her son, made up or not, gave her a way to cope. As for me, I would be in the state mental hospital!
Me too! When my daughter was in 5th grade her dad went to pick her up from school, he called me and said they told him she had already been picked up....my 9yr old....when I say I lost my entire f*****g mind OMG! She was actually in the gym! But it took them and my husband at least 4hrs to calm me down! I turned into a complete lunatic my rage and my wrath was through the roof. My daughter has been home schooled ever since!!!
I always thought the song by Fine Young Cannibals, “Johnny Come Home” was about this little boy. This is truly haunting and heartbreaking story.
The dog showed back up at the house.
I taught my niece's to yell fire and not help kick them in the lower extremities and run
I believe I was almost kidnapped as a child. Lured by a girl who was in my class that I thought was my friend. Now when I think back, maybe she was pretending to make friends with me. I think she was used as bait. Some kidnappers do this. It’s a long story but there were a couple red flags that felt off with me. My parents saved me. I never forget that day and how I was forever grateful to my parents. I never forget my now late parents. They were my heroes that day.
Hello Lamont😊 thanks for sharing. Be safe and have a great week
I remember when this happened and I remember seeing his picture on a milk carton when I was a kid
Thanks for doing this one
I have been studying this case since 1982. I even read his mom's book. Just sad. I think the cases of the boys are all related. How horrible for all the families. Just hell on earth.
I'm guessing there was a serial child molester on the loose back then.
Etan Patz was the first "milk carton kid". Still a chilling story.
Hey Lamont...am your biggest fan in Kenya.. I really like your contents.. really fascinating story.. sorry to the young boy
I just watched his true crime case story the other day… so so so sad
Lamont - thank you for all these videos ! I love that you care - it's hearbreaking how many evil people target our innocent children - I don't know why exactly I watch these true crime story's - I think it's because I have a passion for justice and solving mysteries - I do think that you do a fantastic job - and it is important to the victim and their families that they are not forgotten . Thx Lamont - you're wonderful ! God bless.
They should still do this on milk again. Would help spread the word about missing kids. Should also do it for adults. If it could help find just one person it would be worth it!!
They have the Amber Alert system now
I was his age and lived in Des Moines when this happened....l havent been right since....and now my time is about done.....dont forget the Martin kid that it happened to also.
Im from Iowa. I still think about Johnny and Eugene Martin. ❤😢
3 children disappeared in the same area never to be seen or found again sex trafficking is big money !!!!😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢
The kind of children that are normally trafficked are runaways and system kids. The kind nobody comes looking for. Nobody traffics children whose faces will be all over the media.
They can trace back where he was trafficked to find any traffickers. Human trafficking is ongoing and it'll never stop if they don't talk.
There is an entire story as to who and what group was suspected to have been involved, according to the boy who said he had seen him. That is a whole other long story.
@@Dee-743lookup the Franklin loan scandal based out of Nebraska and they too are tied to it…
Human trafficking think it's bigger then drug's now. How much drugs gets confiscated at borders? Some procent. There's to many people in high places and to much money to seize all drugs. Same thing with child trafficking
Wow, what a story to tell. Sad all 3 still missing today. Can't even think of the grief the parents are still going through.
From what I remember, the dog 🐕, walked back to the house, and Johnny's dad let the dog in the house, and Johnny was nowhere to be found!
Johnny would be my age now. I remember seeing his face on the milk carton. It's obvious he was kidnapped by someone in that car the other boys saw. I highly doubt this case will ever be solved. So very sad.
When I was a kid I used to go outside and play and if I saw anyone suspicious I would go in the house.
Damn Uncle … a sad sad story that takes me back 😢
I was 12 and just moved to Des Moines . I remember this story ..
Hi Lamont 😊 sad story. 😢 Poor Johnny just working.
as a paperboy of 12, i carried an old USMC knife , and lead knuckles , both items found on the roadside .....i never had to use them ........
The morning he was kidnapped was the only time he ever went alone! He had to beg his mom to let him go alone!
But isn't that crazy though? I've heard of several cases where it was the first time a person did something out of their norm or the parents allowed something for the first time and something horrible happen. It almost seems as if it was a weird twist of fate that caused it.
Not quite true, he had gone a few times alone according to his father. But that's led the conspiracy theorists to accuse his father of being involved.
Was he an only child? I can't imagine the pain for these parents 😢
@@5boysandamom He had two older half-siblings.
Not alone. With his dog. Plus dogs usually lay their lifes for owners
Very sad and like you say what's worse your child being murdered or being forced into prostitution as a child. I don't think his mother and father will ever have peace. Thanks for this story Lamont.
Very sad 😢 I hate that things happen like this
An adult should have been with those children, you don't leave no child or children alone.😊❤
I 100% believe Paul’s story, so many things add up and as we all know child s*x rings are rampant. It’s such a tragic, depressing, bizarre story.
They need to bring this back on some kind of carton that people buy a lot of. They put out flyers but they need to advertise it on other things too.
This so sad and a complete shame we have to have missing children on milk cartons at all!
Have they stopped those milk cartons faces? Why don't they continue on gallon jugs!
Your definitely right Lamont, this is a very unusual case. Yes, I do remember when those missing kids faces were put on those milk cartons. I will be 65 next week. Time flies. I also remember the paper deliveries. My dad used to get the Sunday paper delivered and I would always get the comics pages and use silly putty and make 😅copies of the cartoons. Those definitely were the days. Sad, these things happened back then too!❤😢❤😢❤
Very strange indeed. Who knows what really happened? So sad.
The child in me still wants to believe😢💔
REST IN PEACE JOHNNY 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽💔💔💔💔💔💔💔💔💔💔💔💔😪😪😪😪😪😪🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺😪😪😪😪
I remember this case. I am the same age as him and I remember my mom not letting us outside after dark because of it.
I wouldnt have opened the door. I would have called the cops immedietely. I think she made the whole thing up to get the story back in the news.
Thank you for covering this case/going to the locations. I've wanted to see/maybe even go to them ever since I heard about this case decades ago. It still haunts me to this day. It's such a beautiful, quiet neighborhood that you would never suspect anything bad to have happened.
I'd be terrified, and I would lose my complete shit.
The newspaper wasn't only really important, but people in the neighborhood learned who the neighborhood kids were. Paper routes and that small system really served to tie the 'COMMUNITY' together, back when it still operated like a community. Nothing replaced that familiarity, for neighborhoods, once people switched to digital access for their news. I still miss the flyer days.. when we would get all the flyers and I'd go through each one.. big old mess of newspaper on the table and it was great lol.
Ronald Reagan was president… he mentioned the community was privileged enough to get angry from receiving no newspaper at their door step. They assumed he “over slept”. Johnny might’ve hated his parents and met someone he trusted. The family may have not known them. Their dog went home like nothing happened. Why is he not found successfully living as a privileged adult?? He may have been kept by someone but not for long. Did he come home for money? Why his mom so secretive about this hope that she discovered and tend to share it ? Many holes are in this story. I read in the comments that he had half-siblings to share attention from back on the middle class era. We now have the internet, cameras, zoom, apps… did he change his identity?? Why would someone want to be gone so long if the parents still alive?? Some kind of mistake happened and one person know about it. If they weren’t with God then especially how the times is now… like the end of days. They’ve probably didn’t make it beforehand. Just my humble opinion…..🤷♀️
No child should be alone.😊
It's strange all three boys are similar in appearance. Maybe the work of a serial killer? What do I know.
Just watching! Another great video. Best from Germany! :)
It's a good thing you're doing to talk about these and other unsolved cases. It renews interest plus it's possible someone could remember something they didn't think was important at the time. Even the kids grown up now may have new perspectives on the environment.
I think it affected the mom so deeply that she lucid dreamed the encounter and truly believes she met her son. As a parent I know that if I had this occur in reality, weather my kid was an adult or not...they are absolutely NOT walking back out that door. If I have to kill the other guy or not. She didn't ask for this whole thing to happen so I have no reason to believe she'd make up such a thing in bad faith, just that it is real to her. These stories have a profound effect on the minds or parents when putting yourself in their shoes.
Think she went mad with grief
I would always recognize my daughter…always. How would a mother not recognize her son after all those years?? I would have called the police strait away. Doesn’t matter how old I am, always my “child”.
Didn’t you hear what was said on the video? Supposedly when Johnny showed up to his mother, his hair was long and dark, as opposed to his natural blonde when he was gone, plus even though your child will always be your child of course, but think more realistically, if your child were to disappear at 12, never to see him/her again until he was way grown 27 year old adult, by then, of course you will not just recognize him/her (at least not at first sight), especially if physically he/her looks alot different, your child is basically like a stranger by now, so you have to basically start treating them as if your were meeting someone new (albeit still being happy to see them). Plus what good would it really do to call the police, if Johnny by then was an adult, and left on his own volition with the other mysterious man, so really what could the police had done there.
@@dianarendon5845 Perhaps, but in my case I would recognize my child. She looks like me.
@@absatwell8163 You say that because I assume you’ve never had a child disappear and was blessed to have been able to see them grow up to the fullest, it’s not the same as if you had stopped seeing your child at 12 to never see them again until they’re in their late 20s, by then they look different, talk different, different personality etc. it’s basically like meeting a whole new different person. Not saying you still wouldn’t love them as your child, but you’re basically still meeting someone new.
@@dianarendon5845 Thank goodness I’ve never had a child go missing and I’m sorry if you have. I could only begin to imagine. My child has specific moles and birthmarks as well. I just feel that I would know is all.
Yeah well If your child started saying politicians and law enforcement were behind child trafficking you wouldn't have the option too call anyone for help