Why Do Audiophiles Fall for Placebo Effect?
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- In this video we discuss why some audiophiles fall victim to placebo effect and hold on to beliefs that audio tweaks such as fancy cables, bi-wiring or fuses improve system fidelity when electrically it's highly unlikely. I go over the exchange I had with one of our subscribers where he actually accused me of gaslighting (aka. manipulating our audience into questioning their own beliefs on the reality of the situation) despite I always show measurable proof or use engineering principles to explain things.
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#placebo #audiophile #music
What this individual does not realize is that the “measuring folks” are the engineers who make equipment he listens to. Most audio engineers and musicians laugh at the degree audiophiles take things.
Yeah you couldn't be more right about that John Lennon didn't care about sound too much at all it was about the music!
Audiophiles laugh at audiophools too! Don’t lump all audiophiles in with that category
I can agree with the audio engineers and musicians statement.
Sadly there are too many self-proclaimed "engineers" in the music business who have no knowledge or experience that might justify that self-bestowed title. They're nothing but con artists, and no doubt the reason why no good music is being made any more. But as one of those "measuring folks" who earned the right to call myself "electrical engineer" by virtue of four years of intensive study, I completely agree--audio gear does not come from a hollow tree, or found in a cabbage patch. It's designed by people who know what they're doing. No woo.
@@StringerNews1 the requirements to call oneself an audio engineer these days is different than 25 years ago. Schooling & learning from a mentor has become nonexistent.
Music is quickly changing thing that you can’t hold in front of you like a picture so it is hard to compare sources of music perfectly as your second hearing of even the same sounds begin to sound different (as anyone knows when listening to repetitive music, especially ones with repeated voice samples). Ear fatigue sets in too and the imagination is at work (remembering what others have said in a review or marketing about a device), and memory is difficult too. Imagination seems to go into overdrive when the situation is the most difficult to discern logically (and when one feels compelled to come up with an observation about a difference observed by another competing male).
People on all the audiophile forums have been going a bit crazy with this placebo stuff lately. Yes, placebo effects exist, and I've been subject to them (please keep in mind I said that). But oddly, for people who believe in precise measurements as the answer to everything, the broad, vague, individually variable, and highly imprecise notion of "placebos" seems now to explain everything. As I've said, I've experienced them, but in my experience, they tend to be very short-lived. Over time, with longer-term listening and with suitable comparisons, your ears will tell you the truth. (Many people in the comments here report overcoming any placebo effects in just this way.) If my system, over time, sounds bad for whatever reason, my ears will tell me. And if it sounds good, my ears will also tell me that over time. All this, to me, raises a question, which is that if placebo effects are always working on us, why ever trust your ears at all? You don't even have to listen to your system. Just turn it on, look at the lights on the control panel, and IMAGINE how wonderful it sounds! If imagination is so overwhelmingly powerful, take advantage of it and save yourselves the trouble of actually using cables at all -- you'll have a much better listening experience! Placebo effects RULE!
I literally experienced audio placebo firsthand when testing a $110 Qudelix 5k against a $1000 RME ADI-2 DAC with some planar headphones. I was swapping back and forth and got distracted. Thought I was listening to the ADI-2 but it was the Qudelix. I was like "wow maybe the ADI-2 is better" and then noticed I was still listening to the Q5k. Going back and forth I realized, there's no damn difference.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Gene you've always tried to give your viewers accurate information so they can make educated decisions. This guy is just picking on things he really doesn't understand. Keep up the good work.
As the famous physicist Richard Feynman once said "the first principle is to not fool yourself... and you are the easiest person to fool" After selling and servicing thousands of systems I can attest to this phenomenon, and yes, I have fooled myself into believing I heard differences! Now at 70+ years young and most of my hearing gone, any decent sound is welcomed, gone are the days of comparing cables and interconnects. I now read reviews comparing pain relievers and Medicare advantage plans... Cheers!
As a "high-end" manufacturer of audio components, Great American sound Co. or GAS Co. was continually approached by "golden-eared audiophiles" claiming the amplifier or preamplifier they owned clearly sounded superior to any of the GAS Co. products we were producing. I would always invite these individuals into the sound room with their preferred audio component and proceed to connect it to the switching system. I would have them select a comparable GAS Co. component that I also connected to the system and then carefully adjusted both components with a precision AC voltmeter for equal levels. Before the testing commenced, I would give the audiophile the remote lanyard--a small handheld box with a toggle switch labeled A or B. I always told them that the "A" position was their piece of equipment and the "B" position was the GAS Co. equipment. After exhaustively auditioning the two components, the golden eared individual would always have a litany of subjective terms that negatively described the sound of the GAS Co. component such as: "overall dullness", "lack of transparency", "ill defined bass", "irritating midrange", "shrill highs", "lack of depth", "unstable imaging"..... ad nauseam. While the audiophile was espousing these opinions, I would bring the level of the music back up, then casually walk over to the components, switch off the power to the GAS Co. component and ask the audiophile to please toggle the lanyard switch between A and B.
Unbeknownst to the audiophile, I had connected the switching system exclusively to their component only. During the test when they switched from A to B, the sound audibly dropped-out during the switching process for a few milliseconds cueing the listener that something had changed. When the audiophile realized that I had clearly demonstrated that their golden ears were not golden at all, they would quickly disconnect their component from the system, and while stomping out of the listening room, turn around, and, depending on how invested they were in believing they had golden ears, generally espouse a litany of profanities directed at me. Don't shoot the messenger! I repeated these same A/B listening tests many times with various individuals and groups and determined there was a direct correlation between audiophiles and lovers of music; audiophiles were always angered; music lovers were always enlightened, especially women! This same switching system was also utilized for loudspeakers and phono cartridges since GAS Co. was selling "Sleeping Beauty" "moving-coil" phono cartridges made by Coral Corp. in Japan. There was no need try to fool the listener as I did with electronics, switching between different loudspeakers and phono cartridges always produced easily discernible audible changes in the musical timbre characteristics. David Riddle
If it were not for "placebo effect" the ultra high end audiophile market would not exist.
There's been some studies where doctors actually TELL the people this is a placebo pill, and yet they still get better or improve themselves. Crazy.
Often symptoms just go away over time. Placebo effect will never "heal" cancer, or other serious diseases.
It’s the whole basis of homeopathy. Regardless, I tell my patients that if they get get symptom relief from “X” treatment, AND I firmly believe the symptoms are minor and not due to something terrible like heart disease or cancer, then I really don’t care what works, my prescription or Mom’s chicken soup, no difference. I do get mad when people run off to get treated for a serious illness with completely unproven, and expensive voodoo therapies like homeopathy.
Yup just like audiophiles and speaker cables and DACS.
what studies do you mean exactly? thanks for any additional insights
Excellent Gene, as always. There is a way to prove to believers that what they think they hear isn't real: A proper blind test. The problem is when you propose that to them, they come up with endless excuses why a blind test isn't valid.
I tried bi-wiring years ago. I had read about it and I'm thinking "you know this doesn't make any sense because the wires terminate to the same posts on the amp side but what the hell". So I tried it and of course it didn't sound any different. It turned out fine though because later I got a new receiver that was bi-amp capable so I already had the wiring in place to bi-amp. Thanks for the confirmation.
In th 1986 i tried supra 2.5 mm loudspeaker cables and 10 mm . Big differents even with these cheap cables
you will hear the difference after an edible
I think many audiophiles are somewhat neurotic. They fret constantly that they're not getting the best possible sound. This makes it easy to prey on their insecurities. It's natural to "hear" a difference when you've spent money on something. No one wants to think he wasted money. TV3001 is using tactics straight out of the subjectivist playbook: "you don't hear differences because your ears and/or equipment aren't good enough. Only the audiophile elite can hear them". That's the Emperor's New Clothes tactic.
My 3 kids are proof that your ears can be fooled. I remember the days when they were babies and I would put them down to sleep and then go take a shower. Many times, and this happened with all 3 of them, I could swear I heard them crying. I'd rush my shower yelling "It's okay, daddy's coming" only to rush out to the bathroom to crickets- the baby is sleeping deeply. And it wasn't just a one time thing. And the more it happened, the more I would wait, aim my ears to be absolutely sure, then I'd rush out to more crickets. The one time I told myself that it's just my ears playing tricks on me, I finished a normal shower to find that the baby was really crying.
To be fair, auditory "hallucinations" of this sort are outright expected in the environment you described - a shower. That constant white noise gives the brain a lot of room to breathe, too much, even
"Nothing unreal exists" is from Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home
dang i wish it were true though. but conspiracy theorist exist so,
The placebo effect occurs when you're blind and you don't get to see scientific evidence or measurements. I fell for the 12AWG AC power cables until I saw measurements from Amir at Audio Science Review which proved that there was no difference over the manufacturer's provided ac cable.
If one is willing to spend a few hundred or thousand bugs on cables, just for aesthetic reasons, I could understand (even if I really think, that this ridiculous thick cables are really ugly).
Placebo do occur occasionally. But in this case, it’s the sound that should get better, with these thicker/shielded cables. Isn’t better sound we search, not measurement sound? How does measurement sounds like? Start at the switcher box and work your way to the amplifier. Then use shielded cables and don’t let the speaker cables lay close to the mains. This cheap trick does a bit.
@@rikardekvall3433 try harder 😂😘
@Douglas Blake and even the price of producing adequate cable makes it completely unnecessary to put a crappy cable in the box.
@Douglas Blake this is anyway to misunderstand if one wants to. They would say, ok, in sense of electrical security, they may adequate, "but..."
I did not miss you point. It's more like a addition.
Those people don't (want to) understand the physics behind anyway. They want to believe.
To quote a a random believing guy: "Isn't better sound we search, not
measurement sound? How does
measurement sounds like?". Kapow!Self-illusion justified.
Bi-wiring is a cheap gimmick that can be used as a selling point. That's all it is. A marketing tool. No big deal. I have used bi-AMPLIFICATION in concert halls, but with much larger equipment. That's just part of professional music production. Not to offend anyone, but facts are facts, and I have tested bi-wiring and heard no difference with highly resolving B&W speakers. Thanks for the video, good information.
I'm guilty of the placebo effect. Thanks for your insight. Always good advice.
During the pandemic, I still wanted to watch movies in a "theater" setting. Gene and the guys convinced me to not go "by ear" and actually measure. Use results followed by listening to see what you like. Their advice has given me the best experience. Knowing about how bass and reflections work and effect your sound, moving speakers around the room to fit YOUR ROOM, etc. Saved me a lot of money and time, and also made my room the envy of my neighbor buddy whom I will soon be helping with his room. He came over and was absolutely flabbergasted because he tunes his "by ear" and has roughly the same quality of components in his setup. Thanks guys.
Also, seat shakers are a must for movies. Keeps the boomy-ness out of the subs but still gives that visceral feel. #protip
Years ago I did bi-wire my LCR channels. It made a huge difference…… In the amount of money in my wallet! 😂 I fell for the BS and should’ve spent that money elsewhere. Simply can’t argue with Science!
It's simple... People want magic. That is all. If you can explain everything you cannot argue what is better what is worse. It's all in data, undebatable. The only debate may happen about preferences.
So an audiophile confuses preferences with quality. To keep consistency in that you need to believe in some special, unmeasurable magic.
The worst placebo for me were... amplifiers. I had two very similar amps... At the beginning i was 100% sure the more expensive one (Naim ;-)) sounds better. It has "magic" in higher frequencies... I heard it untill... Blind test...
The placebo effect is an excellent analogy. In addition there is another reason not appreciated in the audiophile world. Think of the fact that when you look at a computer screen you only see an area about the size of a nickel, that’s a fact. We have the illusion we see the whole screen. Surely we’ve all had the experience of missing something right in front of us. This is why. The same thing exist in audio. And like with our visual system, we have the illusion we hear everything going on at every moment. For this reason when auditioning cables or a DAC or amp, it’s all to easy to think you hear something fresh when in fact all that changed was your focus. This doesn’t explain every situation but it is not recognized at all in this hobby as far as I’ve ever heard it mentioned before.
That's very interesting about the select focus in audio. Now that you explained it, I can relate to my own listening. Sure, I believe I'm really hearing the whole piece, but it's mostly in my periphery.
I'm really only critically tuning in to specific elements at any given moment.
This is the same as when I bought new headphones recently. Put on a song I liked and heard something brand new. Like brand new! Then I'm like, wait, what the hell.
Put on a pair of headphones I've been listening with for years. And sure enough, there it is. It was there all along. Doesn't mean the new headphones weren't great. Just meant they weren't revolutionary, and they didn't need to be.
This is why every time I get a new pair of headphones, I use it for a week to wear off the effect, then form opinions on it
@@ismaeltorres3219 wise words
If you spend the 💰 and the ⌚ on equipment or cables, you expect to hear a difference, some people can't accept the fact that they wasted money on snake oil 😂
Wow, this guy hits all the audiophool check boxes... Your gear isn't good enough, your ears aren't good enough... Not to mention his belief of how sound reporduction gear is engineered. We all use our ears and make subjective opinions, but if the objective controlled science tells me X, and my uncontrolled subjective listening tells me Y, I'm going to assume something is wrong with my unctonrolled subjective test. Of course we live in a world where we are almost totally dependent on technology, and most of us don't know anything about it.
Best placebo effect is having a few drinks while listening to your system, it's repeatable and sometimes it's even better than the last time. 😊
Alcohol has a measurable effect on the brain yes. But how is that placebo?
@@alphaniner3770 Simple, with enough alcohol the psychological benefit will be improved sound perception.
LOL. Sensitivity to distortion at high volumes diminishes!
A few drinks are one thing and your system gets all chocolatey midrange. Then if you keep drinking, your system can’t be loud enough.😂
@@mrwilliamwonder I guess we can't argue against that. I remember listening to my headphones with a good drink at night when my wife came into my man cave asking what the hell I was doing - a reason not to get open back headphones perhaps...
Price and looks have a huge impact on perception. That's why blind tests lead to funny results (if done right)
In my small circle of audio friends a year or so ago I did a double blind test using an associates Wilson Audio towers (don’t recall the model number) as he claimed his $5k+ cables and equally expensive interconnects made an audible improvement in performance. Many times we switched between his interconnects and bi wire cables and my $1.50 a foot Knukonceptz 12/4 braided cable in a single wire termination with the factory jumpers installed. No one, including the owner who has had these speakers for over 10 years in the same room with the same content could hear an audible difference. As soon as we changed the parameters from double blind to allowing the listener to choose the cable, the owner immediately said “See here, the midrange has significantly better imaging and the bass is much tighter” the next round of listening using his cable regardless of the fact that when he wasn’t aware of the cables being used he didn’t make these claims. It was the bias effect incarnate. Oh also, the 3rd and 4th cables and interconnects were some Kimber Kable 8VS’s I had laying around I received as part of a trade and some basic Monoprice 12/4 CL3. In addition the amplification source and source material as well as the CD player were all from the owner’s library and songs he had listened to literally thousands of times. At the end of the day I understand purchasing high end cables to match your $50k speakers aesthetically, however you lose me when you start telling others something like a $5000 passive cable is making an audible difference against a quality cable retailing for 98% less. Science is great because an empirical measurement can be conducted using the same parameters and achieve the same results time and time again.
May know what the source is and the power amp ? These two will make a lot of great sound differences.
There could be a set of circumstances where the listener indeed hears a significant improvement when bi-wiring. If those jumpers are corroded or not making a good contact, then switching to the bi-wiring may (falsely) convince them it was the method of connection, and not the ill-fitted jumper.
I bi-wired my speakers because it looks fancy. If it looks fancy then it makes me happy 🙂
why does that make you happy?
Probably because the rear of the speakers are facing out into the room.
It's not so much placebo effect as cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance arises when we hold one belief and are presented with factual evidence that contradicts that belief. Particularly if we have a great deal invested in something (money, time, effort), this can make us very uncomfortable. Some are better at resolving cognitive dissonance by accepting facts than others. Some simply can't do it, and dig in ever deeper to their beliefs, defending them vigorously against the perceived assault. You see this in many areas, but politics is another notable example.
Audiophiles can be audiofools. We’ve all been there…but it’s always good to check biases against facts!
My neighborhood Hifi dealer is routinely - yes routinely - selling systems in the six digit $$$$$$ price range - including Transparent Cables for many tens of thousands of dollars. Many of the clients work in the medical profession - you would think they'd be well aware of the placebo effect. However, I believe a lot of the "drinking the Kool-Aid" comes down to enjoying being part of a very "exclusive club." Having the ability to hear things the average person cannot ("Well.... you must not have good enough ears" or "your system isn't resolving enough" are the common talking points), and amassing "knowledge" about high-end audio properties and brands that the average person isn't refined enough to know about. People love to feel that they know things others don't and belong to exclusive clubs. It's human nature - especially amongst the wealthy.
If you spend $500 or $100000? in the end if you like your system that is all that matters.
Great video. I never took your videos over the years as telling people not to do anything. I so appreciate the measurements done on different cables and equipment. Thanks and don’t let the noobs change anything.
Placebo-More money (especially in cables-gas filled anyone) does not necessarily mean better. The people at Big Box stores and real stereo stores are there to upsell you. That’s their job. Telling the truth may not be a part of their job description.
The biggest victims of the placebo effect are high end amp buyers. That when hearing a $10k amp it will be better than a well designed $2k amp with similar output capabilities (wattage into 8, 4ohms, etc) on same speakers, volume levels.
Man I've had super expensive amps, mainly to play with and flip, and I keep my ati and outlaw audio amps. A 1505 and a 770. I've never felt like anything more expensive was better at all. Just as good sure. But better? Nah I'll take the profit. Just like the high end dealers do lol.
Agree totally. The placebo effect can be very powerful and the brain can play tricks. I started to develop a vision problem years ago where blank patches started to develop in my visual field. For years I had not realised what was happening as my brain was filling in the blanks. Seeing is not believing, same with hearing. Our perception can be heavily influenced by our expectations.
Ahhhh. Profundity as derived from experience. Can't [and would not wish to] argue with that.
Well the answer is in the title "audiophiles!"
I think the reason this fellow fell for it might be that he used to have a set of modest speakers before, then upgraded to something real far upscale on the quality department.
As he was setting up these new speakers, he took the time to biwire them properly. So when he turned them on and they blew away what he had previously, he attributed at least a portion of that improvement to the biwiring work he had so painstakingly conducted. And there you have it.
Bi wiring is pointless. Bi amping with no passive crossovers and an electronic crossover before the amplifier stage is a big difference. But thats quite a bit more involved.
Are you saying certain drugs can alter, even better your listening experience?
I owned a reasonably good set of speakers with two sets of binding posts allowing for bi-wiring. This was the Polk Lsim 707.
With a decent 110 watt per speaker HK receiver I bi-wirred them and could hear no difference.
Later I owned a higher end NAD with two sets of speaker outs allowing for bi-wiring (not for bi-amping) and I did believe I heard a difference. There was seemingly more bass out-put. It wasn't a massive difference but I believed it was significant and clearly there. I did go back and forth to "confirm" this but I didn't ask someone to give me a blind test.
According to most on here , you must be wrong . Trust your ears , not their so called expertise
Honest question. Like you said, engineers build this stuff due to physics and measurements.
Why is it that speakers got biwiring in the first place? Why did it start and what in the physics made them do that decision? Most speaker seem to have this, so if they dont do anything at all, why is it there?
Newb on this stuff so want to learn. ☺️
Biwiring is for marketing purposes. Useless otherwise.
In my listening and HT room the biggest sound changes can be made by speaker placement. The second was some treatment for room slap and first reflection.
The speaker cable wars are interesting to listen to. On one hand the measurement side of the argument uses some simple measurements to justify bashing the listening side of the debate. On the other side the listening folks say we don’t know anything about engineering but we can hear a difference. Both sides are pretty committed to their position.
I have a different view point. First, measurements are very important to anyone who is planning on designing anything. It is the only way you can verify your design model. Without measurements you can’t verify your design and, just as important, uncover design flaws and errors. In todays world you can model just about anything if you want to take the time and money to do so. Unfortunately, you might only model what you know about. So, the design measurement process can uncover unknown causes and effects.
My point is where is the model of the sound you hear from the amplifier to your ears? In fact, put the microphone one meter away from the speaker and measure some music. Not a single test tone, but real music of your choosing across its bandwidth over time. It’s pretty complex. Remember to keep track of time and phase. I think it might be important. A pretty complex task and way more intensive than most audiophiles want to even think about. Just measuring that for a two channel system consistently could be a challenge. Then change cables and repeat. Is it different? If so, is it audible? What does your model say? Then repeat these measurements using the binaural earphones. How does the data compare.
My point in all this is pretty simple. There are a bunch of folks that hear a difference by changing speaker cables. Some of them might know what they are doing. So, before you go bashing them you might consider that the measurement of resistance and inductance could be insufficient. It might be more complicated.
I’m not saying that all the crazy claims made by some cable guys are true. Actually, some of it is quite entertaining. All I’m saying is there is some evidence that speaker cables have an effect on some revealing systems. So maybe we can be a little understanding of the two positions.
Just remember the old engineering rule. A young engineer thinks he knows everything and a old one knows he doesn’t. This comes from a guy who was one for 35 years.
In audio, if you think it sounds different, well, I guess it does, to you. I’m ok with that.
From my perspective, an important factor in this is the desire to justify buying equipment, cables, etc.
he's talking about GR Research
The performance car industry is full of placebo affect, I.E. K&N filters, vortex air intakes, various mufflers.
Most filters and intakes are BS, but software tunes, that's where the HPs are hiding! But unfortunately it only really works in cars that are tuned down from the factory....
@@fredygump5578 Actually owned a 2014 F type V8S, lost it in a flood from hurricane sally, where I did a performance tune and a supercharger pulley change out. Went from 505hp to 630hp (engine) on the dyno.
@@dennisw4654 My GTI went from 220 to 300hp with a software tune. :) And all I really wanted was the ability to left foot brake without the throttle getting cut....
Gene, you are one of the very few that I would thrust for advice! Great presentation!
TMI try to keep it PG13
Gene is one of the few you would backdoor for advice?
In the immortal words of Ron White: "Let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix stupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. Stupid is forever."
Because you have spent a lot of money and you must convince an angry wife your spend IS justified ;-)
Keep up the faith. Ohh, and that last 3 feet of 100 miles power cord makes all the difference. That's a little joke. Rely on measurements and blind listening tests (NO faith).
Possibly due to 'sunk cost' as well. If someone spends a lot of time and/or money on something and it fails to live up to expectations, they may double down still believing it is great despite all evidence to the contrary. It is hard to admit it when you have wasted money on a product.
Talking about Placebo effect, considering the reverse aspect, isn't it possible that super-audiophiles who have convinced themselves that different cables/ cords/ components don't make any audible difference, end up hearing no difference, when some others are able to perceive the difference ?
How would one hear a difference if there isn't one to be heard. Besides, proper blind testing would control for both sides.
Outside of controlled studies, yes this can happen. Actually a major problem with forced choice blind testing is that the sensitivity of the test to changes is very poor. It depends on the human to be careful and intentional on their choice. Imagine a person given different shades of green. They need to choose those which are different than a reference. They may not feel like carefully comparing the close colors to the reference color and would choose them randomly. This intentional lack of carefulness messes up the results.
Now imagine someone does this intentionally because they simply don’t believe that such “close colors” exist. If it’s so close it’s hard to tell the difference then it’s functionally identical and this why bother.
With sound differences, if there was a very close and hard to hear difference, and the listener didn’t believe there could possibly be a difference, then they won’t be careful and will likely choose randomly. However that means they know flight about the study conditions to have drawn a biased opinion. In a well done controlled study you would try to avoid telling the individual what they are comparing. Only that they need to indicate which sounds different (or possibly better).
ABX testing is not infallible. It has problems. If you look up the literature on the problems with ABX testing, you will find lots of detailed information on the problems. But it’s important to remember that the problems of a test do not validate nonsense. So you can’t just say, the testing method has some problems, therefor my unfounded beliefs must be true.
We also don’t use listening tests as the exclusive reason for drawing conclusions. The same is true of drug trials. The end effect of a drug trial is not the first step. First you need a proper theory of the mechanism of action. Why would it make a difference in the first place? Does that theory hold up to scrutiny? If it does, then test that. Not if it’s audible, but if the mechanism of action actually leads to the objective change expected. In this case, a cable must change the signal passing through it. If it doesn’t, then no change has taken place and no change in sound is possible. From there you usually test the mechanism of action do audibility. Maybe you believe the cable can reduce a specific type of distortion. Then you would add that distortion to a musical file and test. Is it audible on its own?
@@SlyNine I agree. Blind test is the only way to solve this.
Gene you Are spot on !,,,,, 👍I by wired and by Amped and it made no difference to my hearing but then again I’m 72 and I’m probably half deaf.
I biwired my surrounds just because I didn't know any better. I used those extra pairs to feed the tops when I upgraded to 7.x.4. Made no difference taking the biwiring off the surrounds.
Here's an example of the placebo effect. Comparisons of SACD "transports". In my view, digital is digital, and DSD rules supreme! If one has an integrated amp (such as my Aventage A8) that has terrific DACs built-in, or if one needs an external DAC, then the quality in the digital data stream from the "transport" is going to be virtually the same whether it's on a $300 or $3,000 device.
Part of the problem here I think can be "Conformational Bias". You went through the expense and effort therefore it must sound better. And, then there is the law of diminishing returns.
That $4000 turntable has to sound better than the $500 turntable.
I'm 71 and yes my hearing is not what it used to be but it is still good enough to tell the difference between a good and bad system.
I was using a Thorens TD-160 turntable with a Shure V15III cartridge, purchased new in 1976 ($256) I had no complaints about the sound and it was a dependable TT. About a year ago I had the urge to step up to a VPI Prime w/ 10.5" arm and Ortofon 2m Bronze cart. ($4000). I have since replaced the stylus with an Ortofon 2M black LVB.
Funny thing, the VPI Bronze combo was pretty close to the 45yr old Thorens Shure combo and the Black 250 was marginally better. Knowing what I know now I probably would not have made the purchase but I have no regrets. On the other hand, I think most making this upgrade would claim they were blown away by the difference. (I have a comparo video on youtube of this setup).
To further elaborate, the system used:
McIntosh MA352 Integrated Amp
McIntosh MC275 power amp running on output 2 of the MA352.
Project Tube Box S2 for the Thorens
Niles speaker selector to balance the level of the two amps
Klipsch Forte IIs modified (on the 275)
JBL L100 Classic (on the 352)
I was warned about comb filtering using the 4 speakers - I certainly don't hear it.
Both TTs provide great reproduction with accurate sound
Placebo effect is powerful, but combined with a desire to feel superior to the clueless peasants who don't know about [fill in the bogus technology blank], it's all-powerful and invincible!
I experimented with bi-wiring and I believe there was a slight difference though I’m pretty sure it’s just the same effect as using two expensive speaker cables in parallel to one set of posts, I.e. the effect is simply due to a small reduction in the total load on the amp. It wasn’t enough of an ‘improvement’ for me to keep the bi-wiring.
I think the broader point of placebos and self-fulfillment is absolutely true. I’m an old English hifi enthusiast and have been fiddling ‘improving’ my system over 50 years! It’s true that small changes in things like mains smoothing and changing interconnects make an audible difference so, for a short time, you hear new nuances in your favorite music. Whether it’s a genuine improvement is another thing, however. It’s merely a short-term novelty and I’d bet that most of us could reverse the ‘technical improvement’ after a few weeks and notice yet further ‘audio improvements’.
It’s all in the mind but this is what keeps the profits up in the audio industry.
The placebo effect can actually be beneficial, so far as ones health goes... In relation to audio as entertainment, the placebo effect is totally harmless, and there can be no doubt that it contributes to the subjective enjoyment of the listening experience for many people... Where it becomes a problem is when products are marketed and sold on the basis of false claims, which of course is unethical. I would add that accurate reproduction of audio source material by a sound system may not always correlate with what is subjectively pleasing; it would depend on the individual, their ear training, age, source material, musical preferences, etc. There are many factors involved, but it is not unheard of for manufacturers to tailor the performance characteristics of their products in order to appeal to subjective preferences of consumers, even when such preferences are unconscious, e.g. 2nd order and even harmonic distortions are very much preferred by most people, and in subtle amounts are often described as an "improvement" in the subjective performance of a system. The same phenomenon would hold true for frequency response, in which what is most subjectively pleasing does not necessarily correlate with accuracy. Loudspeaker manufacturers have long relied on this phenomenon to generate appeal with customers, many of which will gravitate toward subtle emphasis at extreme ends of the audio spectrum. Anyway, it's an interesting topic, definitely crazy sometimes, how obsessive people can be over minutia of sound reproduction, especially when so much money and resources are involved, and it's all in the interest of a little entertainment!
Personally I would've stopped reading as soon as I saw this guy puts capital letters on random non-proper-nouns like "Speakers and Wiring", I've never seen an intelligent opinion come from someone who does that.
I would not call placebo a negative thing. If you believe it, you achieve it. So if you achieve better health or sound quality by placebo, I would not call it "being a victim" or "fallen for". If you have made some effort to get an experience and got it, placebo or not its still an achievement i think. Its great to inform about placebo, but I would not "burst someones bubble" if I met someone happy about an expensive powercord or some other placebo effect.
Greetings from Norway c",)
The reason some speakers have two sets of inputs is to use one amp for the tweeters and one amp for the woofers. The upper set controls the tweeter and the lower set controls the bass. This is helpful for aidioheads to use say a hybrid or tube amp for the tweeters and a solid state amp for the bass.
Placebo is very strong. 30 years ago I gave a real and moderate pill killer to a patient and told him that it is a vitamin C . After an hour patient's pain still remain the same. But gave him a multi vitamin (large and beefy) and told him that this is the strongest pain killer we had, after an hour and he said he felt better. I did not know if that was true or not, but I believed him and thought the pain killer finally working.
Wait. So, are you a physician and experimented with a patient like this?
I know right…… the “good doctor”
Here probably does some shady monkey business 😬
I heard a good one.
On a channel not to be named, a guy was a b testing cheap to moderate and expensive RCA cables.
Not a good test as the tests weren't double blinded, nor any specs given on the cables. A microphone recorded his stereo speakers to let us compare the cables. Totally worthless as cables only vary in higher frequencies than my cellphone.
He claimed the cheapest cables sounded terrible. The middle priced cable sounded better but the most expensive one sounded best.
Probably placebo effect.
A commenter said if you can't hear or measure the difference between a moderately priced cable and boutique cable, the A B test won't prove that they're equal.
You must listen to that expensive cable for a long time, then you'll hear all kinds of detail and quality.
Sure sounds like a placebo effect to me.
I almost fell for the placebo effect too. I was going to upgrade all my speaker cables from 16 awg zip cord to 12 awg twisted cable with fancy covering and insulation and then I watched your video about Audio Quest 5000$ cable where the battery actually caused higher Capacitance. I might still do that just for esthetics but I think I now realize it won't do anything to improve the listening experience.
When i was 14 years old i did lots of stupid things with loudspeaker cables and mains cables to improve the sound and i thought it sounded better just because of the placebo, and i think 14 years of age with no knowledge with electronics it pushed my placebo to a new level 😉. Today at age 45 and over 20 years with amplifier building and squarewavetesting i can only say stay away from expensive loudspeaker cables and overpriced mainscable, its all about electronic components circuit design and pcb layout and signal current path on the pcb...
because with audio, you can only upgrade so many things. What we're left with are useless gadgets like power filters, magic cables, and over the top amplifiers. Add in the fact that audio quality can be highly subjective from a listener standpoint, so even if three people hear no improvement from a cable, that one person that claims they do...well, there's little you can do to prove them wrong.
I'm never gonna say something audio related is placebo when everyone's hearing is so different. This guy's accusations were a bit strong, and a bit nasty. I do believe things like cables can make a difference, different amplifiers and difference DACs do sound different. I personally feel like cables are no different to the headphones, amplifier or DAC because better quality components filter out noise better, and potentially have a cleaner sound. There's plenty of evidence that poor measuring equipment can still sound good, so I personally don't care at all about measurements.
Lately I've been getting into car audio, it's interesting to me how only people who are into home audio believe in the voodoo witchcraft stuff. Car audio guys never talk about cables unless they're talking about upgrading the cars electrical system so that they can run gigantic 3000 watt amps. Stuff like DSP is a excepted fact in car audio where's in home audio lots of audiophiles won't use DSP and even put it down as being "artificial" as if a electric reproduction of a sound isn't already artificial. I think a lot of the audiofool types are older people, that where around in the 80s and 90s when companies like monster cable where at their height and they still hold onto that marketing B.S.
Some audio upgrades are outta control. I realized that’s when they came out with audiophile fuses costing hundreds claiming to make your system sound better. At the end of the day all
You need is a solid dac, preamp and amp, and of course good speakers.
At 60, I am today an "audio enthusiast" and not an "audiophile". To me, if you are an audiophile, you should be able to hear all the frequencies from 20 Hz to 20 KHz (or at least 18 KHz). In other words, you should be a teenager. Being also an electronics engineer, I fully agree that bi-wiring is nonsense when you use good quality cables, which most speaker cables are nowadays. But the worst of all placebo effects is when people say that vinyl sounds better than CD's. It is totally nonsense, and the superiority of 16-bit, 44.1 kHz sampling digital audio recordings against vinyl recordings has been technically proven with measurement instruments. I bought myself a new great quality record player some 5 years ago and restarted a small vinyl collection, but this has more to do with nostalgia than anything else. I miss those days when I was a teenager and played vinyl records.
I use Home Depot speaker wire and I can say that they've made all the difference. Before I got them I could only imagine what my stereo would sound like.
A lot [not all] of so called [usually self proclaimed] audiophiles that I have met over many years have simply lost the ability to just listen to the music.
They are not audiophiles at all! They are technophiles!
And, as such, the music is relegated to the status of the test disc only. This is a fine example of completely missing the point.
However I have little sympathy for this, their ...affliction [for that is what it is], because technophilia often comes with monumental levels of hubris.
Great video. I think people fall victim to placebo in audio because they don’t want to feel that they got duped…or because they want to believe they have “better hearing” than they actually do.
Gene's patience with those who have fallen for the equivalent of mesmerism (the teachings of Franz Mesmer) rivals the patience that Carl Sagan had with such people. I respect the endurance.
Sound is like taste, touch, taste and smell. It is a sensitivity thing. You cannot measure a person's sensitivity. Measurements are trying to define a good wine on science. It doesn't work. It is subjective...not placebo.
When I swap out these cables I can HEAR THE SINGER THINKING 😅
I have a feeling a lot of these people also can't hear up to 20khz anymore either but they just really believe in their ears to notice every little(or nonexistent) change. I'm 28 and I can only hear up to 15khz. I spent a lot of my earlier 20's in way too loud clubs/venues so I knew I'd be worse off than most when I tested. I do wonder how many people in the hobby have even done a simple test to see if they can hear 18+khz, especially since so many are obsessed with getting "more air" from their system. Some folks like Andrew Robinson and NRD have talked about hearing differences of stuff at 20khz but I seriously doubt either of them can actually hear that high.
Yep your 💯 right.
My speakers are wired with 99.99999% pure copper 8AWG cable 6ft long with
large copper spade lugs on the speaker terminus and locking banana plugs
as the power amp connector. They are dressed with mesh and cable jackets.
They are very likely overkill. They are also
without a doubt better than any other cable I have ever used. If they were
measured, I am sure their specifications would surpass what ever I could
possibly demand of them. If you ask, "Do they sound good?" I would answer,
"Quite Good, thank you very much." If you ask, "Do they sound better than
such and such or so and so? I can only answer by saying... I don't know and
I don't care. I have done the best I can and want to do and I "believe" they
sound as good as I can get. Since I installed these cables more "tweaks"
have come to pass, cryogenic treatment and single crystal copper come to
mind. No, I am not interested in the least. You may ask, "Why not?"
I like my cables too much to let go of them. No, they are not a family member
but I am still very fond of them because I made them myself. Totally biased!!!
My speakers are bi wireable as is my amp. After testing the different combinations, I have concluded that there is no discernable difference.
It's all in the mind😅
Ha, bi-wiring does nothing unless using separate amplifiers and adjusting the tone/amplitude on each amp, or DSP unit in between source and amp circuit. If using same amp (even A/B out), it runs through the exact same circuit and crossover network as single wire. First time I tried this back in my ignorant days, I was disappointed it made zero difference expecting results, anti-placebo.
Hilarious box store manufactures add this as a valuable feature when 99.9% of clients have no idea what it means an/or use it properly. Thanks Gene for the entertainment and factual guidance.
Years ago when bi-wiring was the latest thing there was this channel right here on YT where the uploader a physicist passionate about audio showed it to be a big joke. Sounds most like this guy has a financial interest in it.
Gene, I too realized that "mood" is a major factor in how we perceive the quality of sound from our systems. No one is immune to the placebo effect, but some people (driven by logic before emotions) are much better at noticing and avoiding falling for the cognitive bias. If people hear differences, yet can't reliably discern the differences with a blind A/B test, then they are clearly fooling themselves with placebo effects. I'm not good at fooling myself, nor do I want too. I can tell that you are the same. Reality is a dictator (it is what it is) and I am totally okay with that.
If audiophiles took the time to at least learn the basics of electronics, they would never consider wasting their money on such snake oil as a $500 + power cord that does jack sh!t for sound improvements.
It's brain chemistry.
People get locked into ideas and just stick with it even when it makes no sense and is proven not to work. No research & no testing just an unshakeable belief they're right.
Perfect example : Politics...........
sorry, but imo "audiophile" and "high end" is probably more of a "men thing" ... men should follow the example of women, then men could sometimes save a lot of money ... women don't care much which devices they use to listen to "their" music, they enjoy it and always have fun with it ... I don't need expensive hi-fi systems for my own music enjoyment either, I also have a lot of fun when I listen to "my" music in my car, for example ... and even when I was young in the 1970s, I had a lot of fun with my friends listening to music with our cheap systems... back then I had the cheapest DUAL turntable connected to an old "steam tube" radio, so everything was mono, but I didn't care at all at the time, then came a complete Grundig all-in-one system with my first Visaton DIY speakers assembled with the help of an experienced friend and I was very proud ... long story short, enjoying music is only a matter of inner attitude, completely independent of the devices and sources you use... at least that's my opinion, which no one has to share ;-)
Another good video Gene.
People who have been in the game for a long time and listened to many home systems often say more that half (actually they usually say about three quarters) of people's personal hifi systems actually sound very average despite the big bucks invested. You should do a video where you visit volunteer's homes, set up some equipment in their listening position and explain/demonstrate where they are going wrong (or right!). It will be your most successful video series. If you were in Australia I'd volunteer first.
Cheers mate,
Tony
For a start, I don't see myself as an audiophile but I enjoy listening to music and I like it to sound as good as possible. And I am a mixer. I mix multitrack recordings to a stereo master. The most important thing I have learned in the more then 30 years I am doing this is what you actually think what you hear is not the sound which is coming into your ears, but what your brain makes of it. When I am listening to a mix after a busy day when I am pretty tired I hear something completely different as when I listing to exact the same mix the next day early in the morning when I am fresh and full of energy. The mix which sounded not good at all the day before suddenly sounds a lot better, when actually the only thing which is changed is my state of mind and nothing else.
When realizing this, I think I can understand how people can hear things which I can't hear. When different people are listening to exactly the same soundsource they all hear something different. What they hear will depend on their listening experience. A well trained ear can hear much more than an inexperienced listener.The well trained ear knows what to listen for.
So I think when audiophiles are hearing things which I can't hear there are two options. 1) They have a better trained ear and can hear things I can't hear, or 2) they want to hear something (because they have spend a lot of money for it) or really think they are hearing something which is not actually there. If they think they hear something and even become convinced of it, they are fooling themselves. But if this makes them happy, let them be happy.
One placebo I can guarantee makes a difference, at least for listeners who use surround. It's very simple -- quit using it !! If you use surround while watching news, common TV shows, and other primarily 2 channel programming it slowly reduces the effect, somewhat like the wearing of your tires on your car. If you turn off the surround while watching that stuff, you'll notice a tremendous improvement when you turn it back on when the programming has a need for multi-channel. Don't believe it? Try it !!
Sadly the most gullible of lot and constantly in pursuit of snake oil sham.
Audiophiles fall for the placebo effect because they want to. They want something better than they already have. They are not happy with their sound system and will try anything.
Who is happy with their sound system? ME! I am a degreed engineer and had a specific goal, to reproduce the sound of a symphony orchestra as it would be heard in a great concert hall. I studied sound fields and figured out how to mathematically model them, measure them, and engineer them. I've been having fun with it for nearly 50 years. It's not expensive but it is hard. There are both objective aspects and subjective aspects. The subjective aspects relate to my memory of what live music sounds like. I can say one thing for a fact, two channel stereophonic sound as audiophiles understand it will never work.
Good jumper cables are essential! Dump the cheap supplied plates & invest in good pair of cables - guaranteed to make a difference! Also, plug the HF cable into upper jack and the LF cable into the lower jack… try it and let me know the diff. Thx.
I just got into high end two channel.
I have invested now 15,000 plus.
I have been analyzing this whole hobby now for 2 years “in my journey”.
I have come to the conclusion that the biggest lie the audio manufacturers have sold the enthusiasts on their journeys is, ”audio equipment is a “purer signal” if you have no tone controls.” This has given them all licence to pick apart every micro aspect of any system which may and may not make a difference. At times I am in bliss, other times I am… am I crazy, why the heck am I listening to all these people talk about micro properties that can mathematically and scientifically only make .0005% difference.
Agreed. Part of the fun is being an amateur sound engineer. There's lots of variability in the source material... so you need the ability to adjust. Bass., treble, even "mid" -- those controls are necessary. There is also a time an place for using the "loudness" switch (if you have it). I also use graphic equalizers and even have BBE "maximizers" hooked-up to my systems in order to tailor the sound to my tastes and account for the differences in the source -- recording differences (older material versus newer material -- and other differences) as well as the input source (CDs, LP/vinyl, MP3's on a thumb drive or SD card, etc.) -- and the notion that you would not make any tweaks/adjustments is absurd.
The big problem with audio is that a lot of music lovers don't know anything about electronics.
People who understand why "magic" cables are impossible are not falling for such things. But they are left brain types. Right brain types find it perfectly reasonable that a five dollar power cord bought from an industrial catalog and put in a fancy box and sold for a thousand bucks will "improve " your gear
It's all about justifying a price paid for a piece of equipment. If I spent more, it by definition must sound better. So you think you hear things that in reality do not exist.Amps. Wires. Power cord. You name it. You have to rationalize that the purchase you made was worth it and adds to the listening experience.
probably cause they want to justify their $5000 cables or other nonsense like that
Because they want to. Or because of expectation bias.
Speakers are designed and built using technology rather than ears - such as software to create crossovers and measuring equipment to see what the frequency response is. Afterwards, you'll listen but you have to do blind testing if comparing. A friend of mine used to use a mic and software to get a flat FR when designing a crossover and would change capacitors/coils in real time and watch the FR change, and then use the components that got him the desired result. Nowadays software like XSim can get you there a lot quicker and easier and speaker designers like Bill Waslo even developed software to help do that.
Floyd Toole made an interesting video of how to make good speakers, and what a good speaker measures like. He also points out that sighted listening will give different preferences to blind listening:
ruclips.net/video/zrpUDuUtxPM/видео.html
All the people that have sworn they can tell a difference between speaker wire etc, always fail when blind tested. When people are told they will hear a difference, they will. One 'test' where people were told they would hear a difference all heard it, only to be told afterwards that there were never any changes made to any cables or connections, and the cable that was being used was bell wire. A lot of red faced people attended that one. Over on avsforum there have been tests with people from the high end forum who have failed miserably when tested.
Who are you to discredit and claim that this individual experiences placebo? No one has run a test on that individual's equipment. What I find amazing about audio "scientists" is that it can explain how things sound by looking at graphs using their eyes 🤣 While these instruments are more sensitive than our ears, they fail to fully understand how our brains perceive sonic information. Using your same logic, if your fallible measurements tell you that there is no difference, you will also pre condition your brain into thinking there is none.
why do audiophiles fall for placebo? They want to. They want to feel part of an exclusive club. These experts say if you know what you're doing you can hear a difference, I want to be part of that club. Thankfully that hasn't drifted into the home theater multi channel arena.
You will never convince uneducated fanatics!!! Don’t waste time for them. Long live science! Long live reason!!!
In the end it's just people trying to justify their expensive purchases. Disregarding all objective evidence and facts to say their ears are better and they know better. Companies like Monster and Audioquest etc. love people like that! You've delivered some of the best objective research on RUclips, it's too bad some people can't handle the facts.
Handle the fact? As if its a life or death situation. Lol
@@jpined14 To some of these people it seems like it is to them lol
@@justinbeamon6624 I agree with you. Its nuts to spend that much on some wires.
After watching how the internal wiring of most components are some Home Depot zip cord quality stuff its funny how much debate cables bring.
Lol