What this individual does not realize is that the “measuring folks” are the engineers who make equipment he listens to. Most audio engineers and musicians laugh at the degree audiophiles take things.
@StringerNews1 the requirements to call oneself an audio engineer these days is different than 25 years ago. Schooling & learning from a mentor has become nonexistent.
@@MrMom950 Ok. It's a free world. Almost. Everybody can name himself whatever he like to. But in my small minded world people give themselves labels that match their verifiable skills. So what should an audiophile be? I know a musician from Berlin Philharmonie. Not only does he have what is called a musical ear, but also an ear that is trained on a daily basis. Not because he's always listening somewhere and pretending to hear something, but because his playing in the ensemble has to be right. He studied music at a renowned university and also plays in a sextett, in which the arrangement depends heavily on all voices understanding and hearing their role. What else should an audiophile be? Someone who loves to listen to music? Someone who loves music, and has a big knowledge about compositions and can tell you the difference in between various performances?
I literally experienced audio placebo firsthand when testing a $110 Qudelix 5k against a $1000 RME ADI-2 DAC with some planar headphones. I was swapping back and forth and got distracted. Thought I was listening to the ADI-2 but it was the Qudelix. I was like "wow maybe the ADI-2 is better" and then noticed I was still listening to the Q5k. Going back and forth I realized, there's no damn difference.
As the famous physicist Richard Feynman once said "the first principle is to not fool yourself... and you are the easiest person to fool" After selling and servicing thousands of systems I can attest to this phenomenon, and yes, I have fooled myself into believing I heard differences! Now at 70+ years young and most of my hearing gone, any decent sound is welcomed, gone are the days of comparing cables and interconnects. I now read reviews comparing pain relievers and Medicare advantage plans... Cheers!
Gene you've always tried to give your viewers accurate information so they can make educated decisions. This guy is just picking on things he really doesn't understand. Keep up the good work.
As a "high-end" manufacturer of audio components, Great American sound Co. or GAS Co. was continually approached by "golden-eared audiophiles" claiming the amplifier or preamplifier they owned clearly sounded superior to any of the GAS Co. products we were producing. I would always invite these individuals into the sound room with their preferred audio component and proceed to connect it to the switching system. I would have them select a comparable GAS Co. component that I also connected to the system and then carefully adjusted both components with a precision AC voltmeter for equal levels. Before the testing commenced, I would give the audiophile the remote lanyard--a small handheld box with a toggle switch labeled A or B. I always told them that the "A" position was their piece of equipment and the "B" position was the GAS Co. equipment. After exhaustively auditioning the two components, the golden eared individual would always have a litany of subjective terms that negatively described the sound of the GAS Co. component such as: "overall dullness", "lack of transparency", "ill defined bass", "irritating midrange", "shrill highs", "lack of depth", "unstable imaging"..... ad nauseam. While the audiophile was espousing these opinions, I would bring the level of the music back up, then casually walk over to the components, switch off the power to the GAS Co. component and ask the audiophile to please toggle the lanyard switch between A and B. Unbeknownst to the audiophile, I had connected the switching system exclusively to their component only. During the test when they switched from A to B, the sound audibly dropped-out during the switching process for a few milliseconds cueing the listener that something had changed. When the audiophile realized that I had clearly demonstrated that their golden ears were not golden at all, they would quickly disconnect their component from the system, and while stomping out of the listening room, turn around, and, depending on how invested they were in believing they had golden ears, generally espouse a litany of profanities directed at me. Don't shoot the messenger! I repeated these same A/B listening tests many times with various individuals and groups and determined there was a direct correlation between audiophiles and lovers of music; audiophiles were always angered; music lovers were always enlightened, especially women! This same switching system was also utilized for loudspeakers and phono cartridges since GAS Co. was selling "Sleeping Beauty" "moving-coil" phono cartridges made by Coral Corp. in Japan. There was no need try to fool the listener as I did with electronics, switching between different loudspeakers and phono cartridges always produced easily discernible audible changes in the musical timbre characteristics. David Riddle
Excellent Gene, as always. There is a way to prove to believers that what they think they hear isn't real: A proper blind test. The problem is when you propose that to them, they come up with endless excuses why a blind test isn't valid.
It’s the whole basis of homeopathy. Regardless, I tell my patients that if they get get symptom relief from “X” treatment, AND I firmly believe the symptoms are minor and not due to something terrible like heart disease or cancer, then I really don’t care what works, my prescription or Mom’s chicken soup, no difference. I do get mad when people run off to get treated for a serious illness with completely unproven, and expensive voodoo therapies like homeopathy.
The placebo effect is an excellent analogy. In addition there is another reason not appreciated in the audiophile world. Think of the fact that when you look at a computer screen you only see an area about the size of a nickel, that’s a fact. We have the illusion we see the whole screen. Surely we’ve all had the experience of missing something right in front of us. This is why. The same thing exist in audio. And like with our visual system, we have the illusion we hear everything going on at every moment. For this reason when auditioning cables or a DAC or amp, it’s all to easy to think you hear something fresh when in fact all that changed was your focus. This doesn’t explain every situation but it is not recognized at all in this hobby as far as I’ve ever heard it mentioned before.
That's very interesting about the select focus in audio. Now that you explained it, I can relate to my own listening. Sure, I believe I'm really hearing the whole piece, but it's mostly in my periphery. I'm really only critically tuning in to specific elements at any given moment.
This is the same as when I bought new headphones recently. Put on a song I liked and heard something brand new. Like brand new! Then I'm like, wait, what the hell. Put on a pair of headphones I've been listening with for years. And sure enough, there it is. It was there all along. Doesn't mean the new headphones weren't great. Just meant they weren't revolutionary, and they didn't need to be.
During the pandemic, I still wanted to watch movies in a "theater" setting. Gene and the guys convinced me to not go "by ear" and actually measure. Use results followed by listening to see what you like. Their advice has given me the best experience. Knowing about how bass and reflections work and effect your sound, moving speakers around the room to fit YOUR ROOM, etc. Saved me a lot of money and time, and also made my room the envy of my neighbor buddy whom I will soon be helping with his room. He came over and was absolutely flabbergasted because he tunes his "by ear" and has roughly the same quality of components in his setup. Thanks guys. Also, seat shakers are a must for movies. Keeps the boomy-ness out of the subs but still gives that visceral feel. #protip
Sound is like taste, touch, taste and smell. It is a sensitivity thing. You cannot measure a person's sensitivity. Measurements are trying to define a good wine on science. It doesn't work. It is subjective...not placebo.
In my small circle of audio friends a year or so ago I did a double blind test using an associates Wilson Audio towers (don’t recall the model number) as he claimed his $5k+ cables and equally expensive interconnects made an audible improvement in performance. Many times we switched between his interconnects and bi wire cables and my $1.50 a foot Knukonceptz 12/4 braided cable in a single wire termination with the factory jumpers installed. No one, including the owner who has had these speakers for over 10 years in the same room with the same content could hear an audible difference. As soon as we changed the parameters from double blind to allowing the listener to choose the cable, the owner immediately said “See here, the midrange has significantly better imaging and the bass is much tighter” the next round of listening using his cable regardless of the fact that when he wasn’t aware of the cables being used he didn’t make these claims. It was the bias effect incarnate. Oh also, the 3rd and 4th cables and interconnects were some Kimber Kable 8VS’s I had laying around I received as part of a trade and some basic Monoprice 12/4 CL3. In addition the amplification source and source material as well as the CD player were all from the owner’s library and songs he had listened to literally thousands of times. At the end of the day I understand purchasing high end cables to match your $50k speakers aesthetically, however you lose me when you start telling others something like a $5000 passive cable is making an audible difference against a quality cable retailing for 98% less. Science is great because an empirical measurement can be conducted using the same parameters and achieve the same results time and time again.
I tried bi-wiring years ago. I had read about it and I'm thinking "you know this doesn't make any sense because the wires terminate to the same posts on the amp side but what the hell". So I tried it and of course it didn't sound any different. It turned out fine though because later I got a new receiver that was bi-amp capable so I already had the wiring in place to bi-amp. Thanks for the confirmation.
Agree totally. The placebo effect can be very powerful and the brain can play tricks. I started to develop a vision problem years ago where blank patches started to develop in my visual field. For years I had not realised what was happening as my brain was filling in the blanks. Seeing is not believing, same with hearing. Our perception can be heavily influenced by our expectations.
My 3 kids are proof that your ears can be fooled. I remember the days when they were babies and I would put them down to sleep and then go take a shower. Many times, and this happened with all 3 of them, I could swear I heard them crying. I'd rush my shower yelling "It's okay, daddy's coming" only to rush out to the bathroom to crickets- the baby is sleeping deeply. And it wasn't just a one time thing. And the more it happened, the more I would wait, aim my ears to be absolutely sure, then I'd rush out to more crickets. The one time I told myself that it's just my ears playing tricks on me, I finished a normal shower to find that the baby was really crying.
To be fair, auditory "hallucinations" of this sort are outright expected in the environment you described - a shower. That constant white noise gives the brain a lot of room to breathe, too much, even
My neighborhood Hifi dealer is routinely - yes routinely - selling systems in the six digit $$$$$$ price range - including Transparent Cables for many tens of thousands of dollars. Many of the clients work in the medical profession - you would think they'd be well aware of the placebo effect. However, I believe a lot of the "drinking the Kool-Aid" comes down to enjoying being part of a very "exclusive club." Having the ability to hear things the average person cannot ("Well.... you must not have good enough ears" or "your system isn't resolving enough" are the common talking points), and amassing "knowledge" about high-end audio properties and brands that the average person isn't refined enough to know about. People love to feel that they know things others don't and belong to exclusive clubs. It's human nature - especially amongst the wealthy.
The placebo effect occurs when you're blind and you don't get to see scientific evidence or measurements. I fell for the 12AWG AC power cables until I saw measurements from Amir at Audio Science Review which proved that there was no difference over the manufacturer's provided ac cable.
If one is willing to spend a few hundred or thousand bugs on cables, just for aesthetic reasons, I could understand (even if I really think, that this ridiculous thick cables are really ugly).
Placebo do occur occasionally. But in this case, it’s the sound that should get better, with these thicker/shielded cables. Isn’t better sound we search, not measurement sound? How does measurement sounds like? Start at the switcher box and work your way to the amplifier. Then use shielded cables and don’t let the speaker cables lay close to the mains. This cheap trick does a bit.
@Douglas Blake this is anyway to misunderstand if one wants to. They would say, ok, in sense of electrical security, they may adequate, "but..." I did not miss you point. It's more like a addition. Those people don't (want to) understand the physics behind anyway. They want to believe. To quote a a random believing guy: "Isn't better sound we search, not measurement sound? How does measurement sounds like?". Kapow!Self-illusion justified.
Great video. I never took your videos over the years as telling people not to do anything. I so appreciate the measurements done on different cables and equipment. Thanks and don’t let the noobs change anything. Placebo-More money (especially in cables-gas filled anyone) does not necessarily mean better. The people at Big Box stores and real stereo stores are there to upsell you. That’s their job. Telling the truth may not be a part of their job description.
My personal journey has been more so helped by experts like yourselves. The basic explanation for what type of changes has helped me personally distinguish different sound descriptions like, sound imaging, warm vs bright and neutral. I recently added a marantz mm9000 amp for the front L&R channels. Bi-amps with surround channels, split the preout with y-splitters. Now my focus is if the bi-amp has made a noticeable difference or not. If anyone could point out differences to listen for comparing biamp vs not. Please comment.
Music is quickly changing thing that you can’t hold in front of you like a picture so it is hard to compare sources of music perfectly as your second hearing of even the same sounds begin to sound different (as anyone knows when listening to repetitive music, especially ones with repeated voice samples). Ear fatigue sets in too and the imagination is at work (remembering what others have said in a review or marketing about a device), and memory is difficult too. Imagination seems to go into overdrive when the situation is the most difficult to discern logically (and when one feels compelled to come up with an observation about a difference observed by another competing male).
This hobby has gotten extremely divided over the years. The forums are a complete waste of time. The misinformation is so bad, I stopped participating years ago. Not many...MOST of these guys that bully members are full of themselves and full of crap. I only tune into a very few RUclips channels and websites. Mainly AUDIOHOLICS. Gene's no nonsense advice and opinions is what this hobby needs right now. The worst is arguing with an audio/video hobbiest or a snide uppity audiophile over HIS opinion. AUDIOHOLICS forum included. Thanks Gene!
@@TechStuff365 that's why I brought the subject up. The placebo affect is one of many that divides. For me, it's QUALITY. I will spend allot of money on quality. For example: everyone goes nuts for cheap Amazon brand and let's say, Monoprice. Guess what? They are both CHEAP in quality. Nothing in my system will contain the words Amazon Basics or Monoprice. But if you do? Fine, it's your money. I'll still be your friend and will not belittle you or tell you you're nuts. If that's what you want in your rack, more power to you. However, my cable brand for example in which a few are Mogami, Blue Jeans or Belden will not only sound better but outlast your "Amazon" Basics or cheap ass Monoprice!! My opinion of course 😂😎
Placebo is very strong. 30 years ago I gave a real and moderate pill killer to a patient and told him that it is a vitamin C . After an hour patient's pain still remain the same. But gave him a multi vitamin (large and beefy) and told him that this is the strongest pain killer we had, after an hour and he said he felt better. I did not know if that was true or not, but I believed him and thought the pain killer finally working.
The reason some speakers have two sets of inputs is to use one amp for the tweeters and one amp for the woofers. The upper set controls the tweeter and the lower set controls the bass. This is helpful for aidioheads to use say a hybrid or tube amp for the tweeters and a solid state amp for the bass.
I owned a reasonably good set of speakers with two sets of binding posts allowing for bi-wiring. This was the Polk Lsim 707. With a decent 110 watt per speaker HK receiver I bi-wirred them and could hear no difference. Later I owned a higher end NAD with two sets of speaker outs allowing for bi-wiring (not for bi-amping) and I did believe I heard a difference. There was seemingly more bass out-put. It wasn't a massive difference but I believed it was significant and clearly there. I did go back and forth to "confirm" this but I didn't ask someone to give me a blind test.
There could be a set of circumstances where the listener indeed hears a significant improvement when bi-wiring. If those jumpers are corroded or not making a good contact, then switching to the bi-wiring may (falsely) convince them it was the method of connection, and not the ill-fitted jumper.
I biwired my surrounds just because I didn't know any better. I used those extra pairs to feed the tops when I upgraded to 7.x.4. Made no difference taking the biwiring off the surrounds.
I think the reason this fellow fell for it might be that he used to have a set of modest speakers before, then upgraded to something real far upscale on the quality department. As he was setting up these new speakers, he took the time to biwire them properly. So when he turned them on and they blew away what he had previously, he attributed at least a portion of that improvement to the biwiring work he had so painstakingly conducted. And there you have it.
Gene, this is absolutely a great topic and video. The point you made that really stood out for me was that speaker manufacturers really do use objective measurements. There is always some hard science involved in research and manufacturing. Using the ear alone to research and manufacturer would be a throwback to the early 40s and 50s kit era of high fidelity where results would be subjective, questionable and inconsistent. It's at the consumer end where subjectivity seems to be the rule rather than the exception these days. I really appreciate the fact that you periodically bring out similar topics to remind the consumer not to fall for any placebo effect, especially with cables. Audioholics is outstanding when it comes to using objective measurements to assess performance. At the same time, the measurements are balanced with subjective observations. I fell prey to the cable nonsense back in the mid-90s when my curiosity got the better of me. So I bought a Monster Cable Interlink 300 for one of my components and a pair of Monster Cable speakers. While I couldn't make an A/B comparison between my old cables and the then new Monster Cables, I quickly found that there was no apparent difference. From that day on, I vowed never to become a victim to anymore nonsense. I grew up on a steady diet of Audio Magazine, High Fidelity and Stereo Review (Sound & Vision's Predecessor). My own experience validated the objective approach of these publications. But I'm glad you took the torch and continue to present the truth to a new generation of audiophiles. By the way, you're not that old. I wish I was still 48.
In the immortal words of Ron White: "Let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix stupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. Stupid is forever."
Hi Gene, this topic will never go away, nor will you change anyone's mind. Those who agree will have their opinions reinforced, and those who disagree will not change their mind because you are negating their experience. I'm in the middle, I know for a fact that cables make a difference, however i believe the divide is caused because of the obscene prices some manufactures charge. I agree, they do not carry their weight in price to benefit ratio. That's why I design and build my own cables, win/win. Definitely worth it there.
I think many audiophiles are somewhat neurotic. They fret constantly that they're not getting the best possible sound. This makes it easy to prey on their insecurities. It's natural to "hear" a difference when you've spent money on something. No one wants to think he wasted money. TV3001 is using tactics straight out of the subjectivist playbook: "you don't hear differences because your ears and/or equipment aren't good enough. Only the audiophile elite can hear them". That's the Emperor's New Clothes tactic.
In my listening and HT room the biggest sound changes can be made by speaker placement. The second was some treatment for room slap and first reflection. The speaker cable wars are interesting to listen to. On one hand the measurement side of the argument uses some simple measurements to justify bashing the listening side of the debate. On the other side the listening folks say we don’t know anything about engineering but we can hear a difference. Both sides are pretty committed to their position. I have a different view point. First, measurements are very important to anyone who is planning on designing anything. It is the only way you can verify your design model. Without measurements you can’t verify your design and, just as important, uncover design flaws and errors. In todays world you can model just about anything if you want to take the time and money to do so. Unfortunately, you might only model what you know about. So, the design measurement process can uncover unknown causes and effects. My point is where is the model of the sound you hear from the amplifier to your ears? In fact, put the microphone one meter away from the speaker and measure some music. Not a single test tone, but real music of your choosing across its bandwidth over time. It’s pretty complex. Remember to keep track of time and phase. I think it might be important. A pretty complex task and way more intensive than most audiophiles want to even think about. Just measuring that for a two channel system consistently could be a challenge. Then change cables and repeat. Is it different? If so, is it audible? What does your model say? Then repeat these measurements using the binaural earphones. How does the data compare. My point in all this is pretty simple. There are a bunch of folks that hear a difference by changing speaker cables. Some of them might know what they are doing. So, before you go bashing them you might consider that the measurement of resistance and inductance could be insufficient. It might be more complicated. I’m not saying that all the crazy claims made by some cable guys are true. Actually, some of it is quite entertaining. All I’m saying is there is some evidence that speaker cables have an effect on some revealing systems. So maybe we can be a little understanding of the two positions. Just remember the old engineering rule. A young engineer thinks he knows everything and a old one knows he doesn’t. This comes from a guy who was one for 35 years. In audio, if you think it sounds different, well, I guess it does, to you. I’m ok with that.
Great video. I think people fall victim to placebo in audio because they don’t want to feel that they got duped…or because they want to believe they have “better hearing” than they actually do.
My father was an excellent business man and one day,back when I was really young mowing yards for money during summer vacation he gave me some advice. He told me to give my customers an option list ,different packages if you will of my services. He said to make sure I had a "special" package and to charge exactly double my rate for it. So I made up some flyers and put them on doors in my neighborhood. I was shocked at how many of my customers chose the special package! Now mind you my special package was just a reworded version of what I normally did! I was also amazed and confused by how many people who chose the double priced special package and would actually go on and on how much better their yard looked after! Lol!! Anyways that's when I learned people will pay for the ideation of something better! It doesn't even need to be better. Just the illusion of better is sometimes just as good.
It's not so much placebo effect as cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance arises when we hold one belief and are presented with factual evidence that contradicts that belief. Particularly if we have a great deal invested in something (money, time, effort), this can make us very uncomfortable. Some are better at resolving cognitive dissonance by accepting facts than others. Some simply can't do it, and dig in ever deeper to their beliefs, defending them vigorously against the perceived assault. You see this in many areas, but politics is another notable example.
Another good video Gene. People who have been in the game for a long time and listened to many home systems often say more that half (actually they usually say about three quarters) of people's personal hifi systems actually sound very average despite the big bucks invested. You should do a video where you visit volunteer's homes, set up some equipment in their listening position and explain/demonstrate where they are going wrong (or right!). It will be your most successful video series. If you were in Australia I'd volunteer first. Cheers mate, Tony
Hi gean great vid really enjoyed .I have a friend who recently bought new audio cables replacing his old pair which cost him £1200 uk pound he did this ×3 and the new pairs he purchased were £3000 ×3 I were invited over to listen to the new cables perform on his home audio and quite honestly I couldn't hear any difference my friend was convinced passionately .I didn't have the heart to tell him as in the past I have done and he didn't take it on board and got upset he has got a great sounding system but I do find myself having to lie just to keep him happy as he falls foul to the placebo effect very often many thanks gean I have learnt so much from your channel audioholics 👍😀
@@mrwilliamwonder I guess we can't argue against that. I remember listening to my headphones with a good drink at night when my wife came into my man cave asking what the hell I was doing - a reason not to get open back headphones perhaps...
Hey Gene. I've a geek for HIFI as well home theater for over 2 decades, i had tested on the same system, single good wiring connection to the amp, and do the same biwiring.. I can tell you there is not a single advantages in to do so at all. Except in spending double the money. But the real game changer come to play if you decide to make the giant leap when is come to increase the sound stage and quality and it when Biamping comes into a play. Better bass response, the mids and highs sound more separate and detailed. Specially if the speaker has great crossxover network quality built. Is important to try to use better horizontal amplification to keep the same gain levels, except the customer know what he is really doing matching vertical amps. This is my sincerely humble experience.
I almost fell for the placebo effect too. I was going to upgrade all my speaker cables from 16 awg zip cord to 12 awg twisted cable with fancy covering and insulation and then I watched your video about Audio Quest 5000$ cable where the battery actually caused higher Capacitance. I might still do that just for esthetics but I think I now realize it won't do anything to improve the listening experience.
For a start, I don't see myself as an audiophile but I enjoy listening to music and I like it to sound as good as possible. And I am a mixer. I mix multitrack recordings to a stereo master. The most important thing I have learned in the more then 30 years I am doing this is what you actually think what you hear is not the sound which is coming into your ears, but what your brain makes of it. When I am listening to a mix after a busy day when I am pretty tired I hear something completely different as when I listing to exact the same mix the next day early in the morning when I am fresh and full of energy. The mix which sounded not good at all the day before suddenly sounds a lot better, when actually the only thing which is changed is my state of mind and nothing else. When realizing this, I think I can understand how people can hear things which I can't hear. When different people are listening to exactly the same soundsource they all hear something different. What they hear will depend on their listening experience. A well trained ear can hear much more than an inexperienced listener.The well trained ear knows what to listen for. So I think when audiophiles are hearing things which I can't hear there are two options. 1) They have a better trained ear and can hear things I can't hear, or 2) they want to hear something (because they have spend a lot of money for it) or really think they are hearing something which is not actually there. If they think they hear something and even become convinced of it, they are fooling themselves. But if this makes them happy, let them be happy.
I just got into high end two channel. I have invested now 15,000 plus. I have been analyzing this whole hobby now for 2 years “in my journey”. I have come to the conclusion that the biggest lie the audio manufacturers have sold the enthusiasts on their journeys is, ”audio equipment is a “purer signal” if you have no tone controls.” This has given them all licence to pick apart every micro aspect of any system which may and may not make a difference. At times I am in bliss, other times I am… am I crazy, why the heck am I listening to all these people talk about micro properties that can mathematically and scientifically only make .0005% difference.
Agreed. Part of the fun is being an amateur sound engineer. There's lots of variability in the source material... so you need the ability to adjust. Bass., treble, even "mid" -- those controls are necessary. There is also a time an place for using the "loudness" switch (if you have it). I also use graphic equalizers and even have BBE "maximizers" hooked-up to my systems in order to tailor the sound to my tastes and account for the differences in the source -- recording differences (older material versus newer material -- and other differences) as well as the input source (CDs, LP/vinyl, MP3's on a thumb drive or SD card, etc.) -- and the notion that you would not make any tweaks/adjustments is absurd.
Possibly due to 'sunk cost' as well. If someone spends a lot of time and/or money on something and it fails to live up to expectations, they may double down still believing it is great despite all evidence to the contrary. It is hard to admit it when you have wasted money on a product.
The biggest victims of the placebo effect are high end amp buyers. That when hearing a $10k amp it will be better than a well designed $2k amp with similar output capabilities (wattage into 8, 4ohms, etc) on same speakers, volume levels.
Man I've had super expensive amps, mainly to play with and flip, and I keep my ati and outlaw audio amps. A 1505 and a 770. I've never felt like anything more expensive was better at all. Just as good sure. But better? Nah I'll take the profit. Just like the high end dealers do lol.
I experimented with bi-wiring and I believe there was a slight difference though I’m pretty sure it’s just the same effect as using two expensive speaker cables in parallel to one set of posts, I.e. the effect is simply due to a small reduction in the total load on the amp. It wasn’t enough of an ‘improvement’ for me to keep the bi-wiring. I think the broader point of placebos and self-fulfillment is absolutely true. I’m an old English hifi enthusiast and have been fiddling ‘improving’ my system over 50 years! It’s true that small changes in things like mains smoothing and changing interconnects make an audible difference so, for a short time, you hear new nuances in your favorite music. Whether it’s a genuine improvement is another thing, however. It’s merely a short-term novelty and I’d bet that most of us could reverse the ‘technical improvement’ after a few weeks and notice yet further ‘audio improvements’. It’s all in the mind but this is what keeps the profits up in the audio industry.
"statmat" for the CD player as another example. A piece of plastic with "special magic coating on" that you put on the top of the CD before it loaded, that was supposed to distribute static electricity evenly on the surface of the CD. I bought it in the store after a demo night, because I was certain I could hear difference at the demo. I could never hear any difference at home. Not when I tried it on/off my self, or when I had my wife help me blind-testing it. It was "only" about 15$ back in 1996 or so. I also fell for the bi-wiring many years ago with my first surround system. At the same time I also fell for buying more wire, so that I had the EXACT same length to all LCR speakers. 4 meters bi-wire (8 meters of wire per speaker), so I ended up buying 24 meters for those three speakers, where I could have been equally fine with app. 9 meters. Also - the store earned more because I payed them for mounting plugs on the wires, so a lot more plugs and workings hours that I had to pay for.
I totally agree that bi-wiring by itself doesn't do anything. But it does give hobbyist and tinkerers a chance to add external networks to the speakers without breaking into them. For instance adding a simple resistive pad can lower the relative loudness between the mid/tweeter and woofer speakers. And of course there are manufacturing variations in the speakers that it can addressed on an individual basis. Then there's the difference in output impedance between tubes and solid state that can be compensated for. The real fun begins figuring out the compensation that makes a speaker sound "better", what ever that is.
Bi wiring became popular here in the UK in the nineties. Hi fi reviewers decided it was a good thing and would criticise any speaker above a certain price point that didn’t have it. I’m pretty sure the manufacturers knew it was nonsense but felt that their product would be at a disadvantage in the market without it and would include the feature. I’ve noticed it seems to have fallen out of favour now. Even fairly expensive speakers are single wired now.
When I started this hobby in 2012 I searched and watched lots of channels and read 100s of articals about sound reproduction amplifiers designs, loudspeakers designs, room acoustics and stuff, and audioholics was one of the channels that paid my attention and soon it became my reference and no1 channel on RUclips. Everyone who believes in science and logic should appreciate audioholics for all what it gave and still giving to its viewers /readers from education and realness in audio. Gene you are a legend!
The placebo effect is incredibly powerful in humans. I am a physician with an undergraduate engineering degree. This effect has been described and documented many, many times in human studies. In the audio industry, the placebo effect is "off the wall" and is used to sell numerous products. Honestly, the audio industry is no different from the rest of society. People believe what they want to believe, regardless of the science or evidence. Sad, but true and I don't think it will ever change.
I trusted reviewers that wrote for magazines and went out and bought the equipment that they said it was the best amp and then realized that they said that with everything they reviewed got me thinking that best thing for me is too go and listen first and let my ears hear it and then decide if I want it.
Great video. I like how you explain how you feel and the science behind what you say/feel. It’s good to do a video discussion about peoples comment. It shows a maturity level beyond the normal channel.
As an Hi-Fi repair tech, i have had to do some strange things to keep customers happy. The placebo effect is very apt when it comes to audiophiles. I started doing repairs during the Hi-Fi boom of the 70's and as more and more strange fixes were pushed out with glowing reviews by the magazines, who convinced these people that they must have the latest fix no mattter how crazy or expensive it was. Don't get me started on speaker cable or interconnects, yes the cheap cables that came with some gear were best thrown away, but at the other extreme the way overpriced and overhyped ones were just expensive, and made little if any difference to a sensible priced one Yet these audophiles bought them. At times it was a nightmare, you had to go to their homes to try and fix a fault that just wasn't there, many times i have taken gear back to the workshop, ran it for hours trying to find these strange faults, most of the time i kept it for a few days, then returned it saying that i had found a cure, but not even taken the covers off! 🤔
Gene, thanks for this timely, important video. Audioholics and ASR are carrying the banner for accountability and science in audio. This industry is rife with snake oil, so we need pros like you and Amir to continue keeping ‘em honest!
Most filters and intakes are BS, but software tunes, that's where the HPs are hiding! But unfortunately it only really works in cars that are tuned down from the factory....
@@fredygump5578 Actually owned a 2014 F type V8S, lost it in a flood from hurricane sally, where I did a performance tune and a supercharger pulley change out. Went from 505hp to 630hp (engine) on the dyno.
@@dennisw4654 My GTI went from 220 to 300hp with a software tune. :) And all I really wanted was the ability to left foot brake without the throttle getting cut....
Talking about Placebo effect, considering the reverse aspect, isn't it possible that super-audiophiles who have convinced themselves that different cables/ cords/ components don't make any audible difference, end up hearing no difference, when some others are able to perceive the difference ?
Outside of controlled studies, yes this can happen. Actually a major problem with forced choice blind testing is that the sensitivity of the test to changes is very poor. It depends on the human to be careful and intentional on their choice. Imagine a person given different shades of green. They need to choose those which are different than a reference. They may not feel like carefully comparing the close colors to the reference color and would choose them randomly. This intentional lack of carefulness messes up the results. Now imagine someone does this intentionally because they simply don’t believe that such “close colors” exist. If it’s so close it’s hard to tell the difference then it’s functionally identical and this why bother. With sound differences, if there was a very close and hard to hear difference, and the listener didn’t believe there could possibly be a difference, then they won’t be careful and will likely choose randomly. However that means they know flight about the study conditions to have drawn a biased opinion. In a well done controlled study you would try to avoid telling the individual what they are comparing. Only that they need to indicate which sounds different (or possibly better). ABX testing is not infallible. It has problems. If you look up the literature on the problems with ABX testing, you will find lots of detailed information on the problems. But it’s important to remember that the problems of a test do not validate nonsense. So you can’t just say, the testing method has some problems, therefor my unfounded beliefs must be true. We also don’t use listening tests as the exclusive reason for drawing conclusions. The same is true of drug trials. The end effect of a drug trial is not the first step. First you need a proper theory of the mechanism of action. Why would it make a difference in the first place? Does that theory hold up to scrutiny? If it does, then test that. Not if it’s audible, but if the mechanism of action actually leads to the objective change expected. In this case, a cable must change the signal passing through it. If it doesn’t, then no change has taken place and no change in sound is possible. From there you usually test the mechanism of action do audibility. Maybe you believe the cable can reduce a specific type of distortion. Then you would add that distortion to a musical file and test. Is it audible on its own?
Gene's patience with those who have fallen for the equivalent of mesmerism (the teachings of Franz Mesmer) rivals the patience that Carl Sagan had with such people. I respect the endurance.
I've tried all sorts of audiophoolery tricks. The most ridiculous one was power cables. I do believe in spending a little more money on a quality interconnect that is well shielded, but even then, I don't hear any differences between the cheap RCA cables that come with equipment and better ones. Same goes for speaker cables - I get the correct gauge for the distance, but tend to stay away from anything under 16 gauge.
In the end it's just people trying to justify their expensive purchases. Disregarding all objective evidence and facts to say their ears are better and they know better. Companies like Monster and Audioquest etc. love people like that! You've delivered some of the best objective research on RUclips, it's too bad some people can't handle the facts.
@@justinbeamon6624 I agree with you. Its nuts to spend that much on some wires. After watching how the internal wiring of most components are some Home Depot zip cord quality stuff its funny how much debate cables bring. Lol
I don't think many people fall victim to the placebo effect. As long as you use a dust buster on the air between you and the speakers before listening it should sound pretty good.
the world is viewed through our own individual filters of experience, beliefs, values and identity. Deleting, distorting and generalising everything we experience. If you think you can- you can. It works both ways too When I demo a killer sound, and the prospect says “I don’t want to blow away the neighbour’s” Is really saying “I don’t want to afford this system” no one cares more about a neighbour than they do themselves Rather “Blame” the value proposition on someone else, to save their own ego. I have no problem people not buying the big stuff, just an example of how people will “defend” their ideas, and values. Often by Blame and shame rather taking responsibility to learn something , Amit they could be wrong or show gratitude for something brilliant and beautiful.
I agree with you on the “Placebo effect” and that our brains can play tricks on us. However I don’t agree that simply because we can’t scientifically test a difference, that there is no difference. This would imply our current testing capabilities is equal to that of the brains. I fully understand the testing is more consistent and can do somethings better than the brain, but my main point is that the testing and the brain themselves are different, therefore I believe it is possible to have something “test”the same and yet for some people to still be able to hear a difference. I am. Not one of those people, so I don’t bi-wire, I don’t have experience speaker cables or power cables, but I am still open to the idea that others can hear differences that our current testing equipment cannot detect.
My Denton 85th Anniversary speakers have a serious boost in the upper treble. Tried everything, even putting 1 ohm resistors instead of the jumpers (which actually works, BTW) but it wasn't until I bi-wired them that everything fell into place. Suddenly, after months of tweaking and experimenting, the Dentons suddenly sounded balanced. I had given up hope, I did not believe it would make a difference, but most definitely did. And the difference is not subtle either. In fact, it's so obvious that I think there must be a design flaw somewhere (in the crossover?) because it's like someone has turned down the treble tone control to zero. I have no doubt that in most cases it wouldn't make a difference.
At 60, I am today an "audio enthusiast" and not an "audiophile". To me, if you are an audiophile, you should be able to hear all the frequencies from 20 Hz to 20 KHz (or at least 18 KHz). In other words, you should be a teenager. Being also an electronics engineer, I fully agree that bi-wiring is nonsense when you use good quality cables, which most speaker cables are nowadays. But the worst of all placebo effects is when people say that vinyl sounds better than CD's. It is totally nonsense, and the superiority of 16-bit, 44.1 kHz sampling digital audio recordings against vinyl recordings has been technically proven with measurement instruments. I bought myself a new great quality record player some 5 years ago and restarted a small vinyl collection, but this has more to do with nostalgia than anything else. I miss those days when I was a teenager and played vinyl records.
Here's an example of the placebo effect. Comparisons of SACD "transports". In my view, digital is digital, and DSD rules supreme! If one has an integrated amp (such as my Aventage A8) that has terrific DACs built-in, or if one needs an external DAC, then the quality in the digital data stream from the "transport" is going to be virtually the same whether it's on a $300 or $3,000 device.
Some audio upgrades are outta control. I realized that’s when they came out with audiophile fuses costing hundreds claiming to make your system sound better. At the end of the day all You need is a solid dac, preamp and amp, and of course good speakers.
Gene, as you say the mind's power is strong. If you think it's going to sound better it will. I don't want to paint everyone with the same brush but I wonder if those that don't have a reasonable science or engineering background struggle more with the basic concepts of why certain things can't sound better. There's also the issue of catching "upgraditis". Those that have the bug perhaps need to feel their constant search for the next upgrade isn't in vein and so want to hear improvements in whatever they do for validation. I'm on a couple of face book groups where snake oil improvements get regularly discussed - I really don't know how to let the believers (who are generally nice guys) down gently! Any tips? I've kind of given up trying.
I wonder if ESS Technology regrets naming their DAC "Sabre." Not surprised when reviewers always describe the DAC sound as "sharp," "edgy," and "metallic." AKM was smart when they branded their DAC chip "Velvet Sound." I bet the sound from the AKM chip is smooth, soft, but could be wooly in the bass.
The sabre DAC goes right along with the "thrust for advice" comment a few comments above it. At least that's my stab at it. Of course it doesn't help that I watched the two 300 movies back to back last night.
People on all the audiophile forums have been going a bit crazy with this placebo stuff lately. Yes, placebo effects exist, and I've been subject to them (please keep in mind I said that). But oddly, for people who believe in precise measurements as the answer to everything, the broad, vague, individually variable, and highly imprecise notion of "placebos" seems now to explain everything. As I've said, I've experienced them, but in my experience, they tend to be very short-lived. Over time, with longer-term listening and with suitable comparisons, your ears will tell you the truth. (Many people in the comments here report overcoming any placebo effects in just this way.) If my system, over time, sounds bad for whatever reason, my ears will tell me. And if it sounds good, my ears will also tell me that over time. All this, to me, raises a question, which is that if placebo effects are always working on us, why ever trust your ears at all? You don't even have to listen to your system. Just turn it on, look at the lights on the control panel, and IMAGINE how wonderful it sounds! If imagination is so overwhelmingly powerful, take advantage of it and save yourselves the trouble of actually using cables at all -- you'll have a much better listening experience! Placebo effects RULE!
I can't say if biwiring has an effect. I used to have my speakers biwired, when I was young. But I can tell you one thing, that will give you a hundred times bigger effect, than what you (think) you hear, in biwiring. An effect, that *anyone* can hear, and that's speaker placement and angle to the listener. Even a non-audiophile will be able to tell the difference.
Part of the problem here I think can be "Conformational Bias". You went through the expense and effort therefore it must sound better. And, then there is the law of diminishing returns. That $4000 turntable has to sound better than the $500 turntable. I'm 71 and yes my hearing is not what it used to be but it is still good enough to tell the difference between a good and bad system. I was using a Thorens TD-160 turntable with a Shure V15III cartridge, purchased new in 1976 ($256) I had no complaints about the sound and it was a dependable TT. About a year ago I had the urge to step up to a VPI Prime w/ 10.5" arm and Ortofon 2m Bronze cart. ($4000). I have since replaced the stylus with an Ortofon 2M black LVB. Funny thing, the VPI Bronze combo was pretty close to the 45yr old Thorens Shure combo and the Black 250 was marginally better. Knowing what I know now I probably would not have made the purchase but I have no regrets. On the other hand, I think most making this upgrade would claim they were blown away by the difference. (I have a comparo video on youtube of this setup). To further elaborate, the system used: McIntosh MA352 Integrated Amp McIntosh MC275 power amp running on output 2 of the MA352. Project Tube Box S2 for the Thorens Niles speaker selector to balance the level of the two amps Klipsch Forte IIs modified (on the 275) JBL L100 Classic (on the 352) I was warned about comb filtering using the 4 speakers - I certainly don't hear it. Both TTs provide great reproduction with accurate sound
Another wonderful, and practical lecture, Gene; and demonstration! Thumbs up. Furthermore, from My Experience of listening to most categories of music, I agree with no less than 97% of what you have explained. I'm also very glad that I have watched this RUclips hi fi audio topic on bi-wiring; in the recent past I was curious about maybe getting into that configuration! Fortunately, I have watched your RUclips hi fi audio topic; thank you very much. As for the Placebo Effect, all I can actually say is that I have studied 1st year psychology when I was in first year university in my very early twenties. In a past RUclips lecture you said that such a Placebo Effect is "psychological", and pointed to the upper side, close to front area of your head; fair enough. HOWEVER, the area for hearing is near the back of the human head behind the ear; thus after the hearing apparatus - my phrase. From my perception, and that it is about hearing, maybe it could be called Mental. Since there are four perspectives of psychology: behavioral, cognitive, biological, and psychodynamic. The fourth perspective, whereby the study, and practice of psychology is within the case studies, theories, and results of Sigmund Freud, and Carl G. Jung. Anyway, I'm almost going off the topic, but I think you get my point. In these cases of your topic of, "Why Do Audiophiles Fall for Placebo Effect?" it belongs in the Cognitive Perspective of psychology; for the most part. Mainly my opinion. Keep up the wonderful measured work.💿🔉🎵🎶
You can have two cars that have the same performance specs, but feel and drive very different, there are many things that cannot be measured like a good meal with the same ingredients in a bad meal with the same ingredients. Just enjoy the music. 😊
Gene, I too realized that "mood" is a major factor in how we perceive the quality of sound from our systems. No one is immune to the placebo effect, but some people (driven by logic before emotions) are much better at noticing and avoiding falling for the cognitive bias. If people hear differences, yet can't reliably discern the differences with a blind A/B test, then they are clearly fooling themselves with placebo effects. I'm not good at fooling myself, nor do I want too. I can tell that you are the same. Reality is a dictator (it is what it is) and I am totally okay with that. If audiophiles took the time to at least learn the basics of electronics, they would never consider wasting their money on such snake oil as a $500 + power cord that does jack sh!t for sound improvements.
Good jumper cables are essential! Dump the cheap supplied plates & invest in good pair of cables - guaranteed to make a difference! Also, plug the HF cable into upper jack and the LF cable into the lower jack… try it and let me know the diff. Thx.
The placebo effect is present in all aspects of life. I witnessed it in myself & others while working in the music industry. If a person thinks that biwiring a speaker makes a difference, it does, to them. They manifested it, and that's fine. Just don't argue it as fact. There is no proof of it. ALSO - Quote from the "whales" Star Trek (voyage home). That was the first Star Trek movie my dad took me to.
I think your channel and opinion is a valuable part of discussion and debate. It helps contribute to educating folks. My criticism is when folks try to prove absolute or black and white answers. Obviously, audio is subjective. This video sounds like a response based on facts, engineering and science...very absolute.
Considering people can show pregnancy symptoms and even show physical change in the body based solely on an expectation without actual pregnancy, a condition known as false pregnancy (pseudocyesis) really shows how as human we're at the utmost mercy of our very unreliable mind.
This has help me choose 12g Blue Jean wire instead of 14g biwire. Also I did magnet test and Klipsch jumper bar won't stick. I say I on simple path for better sound. Thank you.
My take on Bi-wireing is take the shortest run Possible! One cable to the speakers Woofer connect and then use a jumper wire to the tweeter - "over two long wires" running from the amp as one to woofer then another one to tweeter! I do hate the cheap binding post Metal jumpers tho and replace them with good copper or Silver cable....
Confirmation bias is a real thing. Some people are extremely hard to sway despite providing rock-solid proof that contradicts their opinion or belief. And, that was at the beginning of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home when Spock was retraining his mind and education.
Bi-wiring is a cheap gimmick that can be used as a selling point. That's all it is. A marketing tool. No big deal. I have used bi-AMPLIFICATION in concert halls, but with much larger equipment. That's just part of professional music production. Not to offend anyone, but facts are facts, and I have tested bi-wiring and heard no difference with highly resolving B&W speakers. Thanks for the video, good information.
Wiring your top end and low end separately on different amps, "bi-amping" can make a difference, on certain speakers more than others, simply because you can change the top end character of the sound with whatever amp/receiver you choose, and the low end you can do the same with amps with different damping factors, tighter, faster etc. So I have to say due to trying it many times, on certain speakers especially with very little or no crossovers, I believe it can make a significant difference and can be fun because of being able to try different amps on the top end and all that jazz. So "bi-amping" does make a difference is my point.
It's simple... People want magic. That is all. If you can explain everything you cannot argue what is better what is worse. It's all in data, undebatable. The only debate may happen about preferences. So an audiophile confuses preferences with quality. To keep consistency in that you need to believe in some special, unmeasurable magic. The worst placebo for me were... amplifiers. I had two very similar amps... At the beginning i was 100% sure the more expensive one (Naim ;-)) sounds better. It has "magic" in higher frequencies... I heard it untill... Blind test...
Thanks for your video presentations. I like listening to music on a good hi-fi system but do not consider myself an audiophile by any means. I also like watching audio presentations like yours and have been puzzled by the furore about audio interconnects and power cables. I've watched audio experts say how they can definitely hear marked differences. But then others say no. As you state, it's what you want to believe though I would like to know for sure if there is any difference at all and if so, how does it happen. I really enjoy your down-to-earth factual presentations. Please continue doing what you do. Very best wishes from Sydney, Australia.
One of the common placebo effects among audiophiles is the belief that changing their loudspeakers to a better and more expensive pair will improve the sound. Once the source component signal starts its journey every other audio component in the system merely passes on this signal with greater or less accuracy. None can enhance or improve it.
If you want better sound buy better SPEAKERS as this makes the biggest difference in sound quality. 1. SPEAKERS (this is where at least 50% of your budget should be spent) 2. AMP 3. SOURCE 4. MEDIA Cables are the last thing that will improve sound quality and shouldn't be more than 5% of your budget. Yes you need cables to carry the signal but don't overthink it.
If it were not for "placebo effect" the ultra high end audiophile market would not exist.
What this individual does not realize is that the “measuring folks” are the engineers who make equipment he listens to. Most audio engineers and musicians laugh at the degree audiophiles take things.
Yeah you couldn't be more right about that John Lennon didn't care about sound too much at all it was about the music!
Audiophiles laugh at audiophools too! Don’t lump all audiophiles in with that category
I can agree with the audio engineers and musicians statement.
@StringerNews1 the requirements to call oneself an audio engineer these days is different than 25 years ago. Schooling & learning from a mentor has become nonexistent.
@@MrMom950 Ok. It's a free world. Almost. Everybody can name himself whatever he like to.
But in my small minded world people give themselves labels that match their verifiable skills.
So what should an audiophile be?
I know a musician from Berlin Philharmonie. Not only does he have what is called a musical ear, but also an ear that is trained on a daily basis. Not because he's always listening somewhere and pretending to hear something, but because his playing in the ensemble has to be right. He studied music at a renowned university and also plays in a sextett, in which the arrangement depends heavily on all voices understanding and hearing their role.
What else should an audiophile be? Someone who loves to listen to music? Someone who loves music, and has a big knowledge about compositions and can tell you the difference in between various performances?
I literally experienced audio placebo firsthand when testing a $110 Qudelix 5k against a $1000 RME ADI-2 DAC with some planar headphones. I was swapping back and forth and got distracted. Thought I was listening to the ADI-2 but it was the Qudelix. I was like "wow maybe the ADI-2 is better" and then noticed I was still listening to the Q5k. Going back and forth I realized, there's no damn difference.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
As the famous physicist Richard Feynman once said "the first principle is to not fool yourself... and you are the easiest person to fool" After selling and servicing thousands of systems I can attest to this phenomenon, and yes, I have fooled myself into believing I heard differences! Now at 70+ years young and most of my hearing gone, any decent sound is welcomed, gone are the days of comparing cables and interconnects. I now read reviews comparing pain relievers and Medicare advantage plans... Cheers!
Gene you've always tried to give your viewers accurate information so they can make educated decisions. This guy is just picking on things he really doesn't understand. Keep up the good work.
As a "high-end" manufacturer of audio components, Great American sound Co. or GAS Co. was continually approached by "golden-eared audiophiles" claiming the amplifier or preamplifier they owned clearly sounded superior to any of the GAS Co. products we were producing. I would always invite these individuals into the sound room with their preferred audio component and proceed to connect it to the switching system. I would have them select a comparable GAS Co. component that I also connected to the system and then carefully adjusted both components with a precision AC voltmeter for equal levels. Before the testing commenced, I would give the audiophile the remote lanyard--a small handheld box with a toggle switch labeled A or B. I always told them that the "A" position was their piece of equipment and the "B" position was the GAS Co. equipment. After exhaustively auditioning the two components, the golden eared individual would always have a litany of subjective terms that negatively described the sound of the GAS Co. component such as: "overall dullness", "lack of transparency", "ill defined bass", "irritating midrange", "shrill highs", "lack of depth", "unstable imaging"..... ad nauseam. While the audiophile was espousing these opinions, I would bring the level of the music back up, then casually walk over to the components, switch off the power to the GAS Co. component and ask the audiophile to please toggle the lanyard switch between A and B.
Unbeknownst to the audiophile, I had connected the switching system exclusively to their component only. During the test when they switched from A to B, the sound audibly dropped-out during the switching process for a few milliseconds cueing the listener that something had changed. When the audiophile realized that I had clearly demonstrated that their golden ears were not golden at all, they would quickly disconnect their component from the system, and while stomping out of the listening room, turn around, and, depending on how invested they were in believing they had golden ears, generally espouse a litany of profanities directed at me. Don't shoot the messenger! I repeated these same A/B listening tests many times with various individuals and groups and determined there was a direct correlation between audiophiles and lovers of music; audiophiles were always angered; music lovers were always enlightened, especially women! This same switching system was also utilized for loudspeakers and phono cartridges since GAS Co. was selling "Sleeping Beauty" "moving-coil" phono cartridges made by Coral Corp. in Japan. There was no need try to fool the listener as I did with electronics, switching between different loudspeakers and phono cartridges always produced easily discernible audible changes in the musical timbre characteristics. David Riddle
Excellent Gene, as always. There is a way to prove to believers that what they think they hear isn't real: A proper blind test. The problem is when you propose that to them, they come up with endless excuses why a blind test isn't valid.
There's been some studies where doctors actually TELL the people this is a placebo pill, and yet they still get better or improve themselves. Crazy.
Often symptoms just go away over time. Placebo effect will never "heal" cancer, or other serious diseases.
It’s the whole basis of homeopathy. Regardless, I tell my patients that if they get get symptom relief from “X” treatment, AND I firmly believe the symptoms are minor and not due to something terrible like heart disease or cancer, then I really don’t care what works, my prescription or Mom’s chicken soup, no difference. I do get mad when people run off to get treated for a serious illness with completely unproven, and expensive voodoo therapies like homeopathy.
Yup just like audiophiles and speaker cables and DACS.
what studies do you mean exactly? thanks for any additional insights
The placebo effect is an excellent analogy. In addition there is another reason not appreciated in the audiophile world. Think of the fact that when you look at a computer screen you only see an area about the size of a nickel, that’s a fact. We have the illusion we see the whole screen. Surely we’ve all had the experience of missing something right in front of us. This is why. The same thing exist in audio. And like with our visual system, we have the illusion we hear everything going on at every moment. For this reason when auditioning cables or a DAC or amp, it’s all to easy to think you hear something fresh when in fact all that changed was your focus. This doesn’t explain every situation but it is not recognized at all in this hobby as far as I’ve ever heard it mentioned before.
That's very interesting about the select focus in audio. Now that you explained it, I can relate to my own listening. Sure, I believe I'm really hearing the whole piece, but it's mostly in my periphery.
I'm really only critically tuning in to specific elements at any given moment.
This is the same as when I bought new headphones recently. Put on a song I liked and heard something brand new. Like brand new! Then I'm like, wait, what the hell.
Put on a pair of headphones I've been listening with for years. And sure enough, there it is. It was there all along. Doesn't mean the new headphones weren't great. Just meant they weren't revolutionary, and they didn't need to be.
This is why every time I get a new pair of headphones, I use it for a week to wear off the effect, then form opinions on it
@@ismaeltorres3219 wise words
During the pandemic, I still wanted to watch movies in a "theater" setting. Gene and the guys convinced me to not go "by ear" and actually measure. Use results followed by listening to see what you like. Their advice has given me the best experience. Knowing about how bass and reflections work and effect your sound, moving speakers around the room to fit YOUR ROOM, etc. Saved me a lot of money and time, and also made my room the envy of my neighbor buddy whom I will soon be helping with his room. He came over and was absolutely flabbergasted because he tunes his "by ear" and has roughly the same quality of components in his setup. Thanks guys.
Also, seat shakers are a must for movies. Keeps the boomy-ness out of the subs but still gives that visceral feel. #protip
Sound is like taste, touch, taste and smell. It is a sensitivity thing. You cannot measure a person's sensitivity. Measurements are trying to define a good wine on science. It doesn't work. It is subjective...not placebo.
In my small circle of audio friends a year or so ago I did a double blind test using an associates Wilson Audio towers (don’t recall the model number) as he claimed his $5k+ cables and equally expensive interconnects made an audible improvement in performance. Many times we switched between his interconnects and bi wire cables and my $1.50 a foot Knukonceptz 12/4 braided cable in a single wire termination with the factory jumpers installed. No one, including the owner who has had these speakers for over 10 years in the same room with the same content could hear an audible difference. As soon as we changed the parameters from double blind to allowing the listener to choose the cable, the owner immediately said “See here, the midrange has significantly better imaging and the bass is much tighter” the next round of listening using his cable regardless of the fact that when he wasn’t aware of the cables being used he didn’t make these claims. It was the bias effect incarnate. Oh also, the 3rd and 4th cables and interconnects were some Kimber Kable 8VS’s I had laying around I received as part of a trade and some basic Monoprice 12/4 CL3. In addition the amplification source and source material as well as the CD player were all from the owner’s library and songs he had listened to literally thousands of times. At the end of the day I understand purchasing high end cables to match your $50k speakers aesthetically, however you lose me when you start telling others something like a $5000 passive cable is making an audible difference against a quality cable retailing for 98% less. Science is great because an empirical measurement can be conducted using the same parameters and achieve the same results time and time again.
May know what the source is and the power amp ? These two will make a lot of great sound differences.
I'm guilty of the placebo effect. Thanks for your insight. Always good advice.
I tried bi-wiring years ago. I had read about it and I'm thinking "you know this doesn't make any sense because the wires terminate to the same posts on the amp side but what the hell". So I tried it and of course it didn't sound any different. It turned out fine though because later I got a new receiver that was bi-amp capable so I already had the wiring in place to bi-amp. Thanks for the confirmation.
In th 1986 i tried supra 2.5 mm loudspeaker cables and 10 mm . Big differents even with these cheap cables
Agree totally. The placebo effect can be very powerful and the brain can play tricks. I started to develop a vision problem years ago where blank patches started to develop in my visual field. For years I had not realised what was happening as my brain was filling in the blanks. Seeing is not believing, same with hearing. Our perception can be heavily influenced by our expectations.
Ahhhh. Profundity as derived from experience. Can't [and would not wish to] argue with that.
My 3 kids are proof that your ears can be fooled. I remember the days when they were babies and I would put them down to sleep and then go take a shower. Many times, and this happened with all 3 of them, I could swear I heard them crying. I'd rush my shower yelling "It's okay, daddy's coming" only to rush out to the bathroom to crickets- the baby is sleeping deeply. And it wasn't just a one time thing. And the more it happened, the more I would wait, aim my ears to be absolutely sure, then I'd rush out to more crickets. The one time I told myself that it's just my ears playing tricks on me, I finished a normal shower to find that the baby was really crying.
To be fair, auditory "hallucinations" of this sort are outright expected in the environment you described - a shower. That constant white noise gives the brain a lot of room to breathe, too much, even
My neighborhood Hifi dealer is routinely - yes routinely - selling systems in the six digit $$$$$$ price range - including Transparent Cables for many tens of thousands of dollars. Many of the clients work in the medical profession - you would think they'd be well aware of the placebo effect. However, I believe a lot of the "drinking the Kool-Aid" comes down to enjoying being part of a very "exclusive club." Having the ability to hear things the average person cannot ("Well.... you must not have good enough ears" or "your system isn't resolving enough" are the common talking points), and amassing "knowledge" about high-end audio properties and brands that the average person isn't refined enough to know about. People love to feel that they know things others don't and belong to exclusive clubs. It's human nature - especially amongst the wealthy.
Your state of mind determines how much you enjoy your music.
100% correct.
The placebo effect occurs when you're blind and you don't get to see scientific evidence or measurements. I fell for the 12AWG AC power cables until I saw measurements from Amir at Audio Science Review which proved that there was no difference over the manufacturer's provided ac cable.
If one is willing to spend a few hundred or thousand bugs on cables, just for aesthetic reasons, I could understand (even if I really think, that this ridiculous thick cables are really ugly).
Placebo do occur occasionally. But in this case, it’s the sound that should get better, with these thicker/shielded cables. Isn’t better sound we search, not measurement sound? How does measurement sounds like? Start at the switcher box and work your way to the amplifier. Then use shielded cables and don’t let the speaker cables lay close to the mains. This cheap trick does a bit.
@@rikardekvall3433 try harder 😂😘
@Douglas Blake and even the price of producing adequate cable makes it completely unnecessary to put a crappy cable in the box.
@Douglas Blake this is anyway to misunderstand if one wants to. They would say, ok, in sense of electrical security, they may adequate, "but..."
I did not miss you point. It's more like a addition.
Those people don't (want to) understand the physics behind anyway. They want to believe.
To quote a a random believing guy: "Isn't better sound we search, not
measurement sound? How does
measurement sounds like?". Kapow!Self-illusion justified.
"Nothing unreal exists" is from Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home
dang i wish it were true though. but conspiracy theorist exist so,
Great video. I never took your videos over the years as telling people not to do anything. I so appreciate the measurements done on different cables and equipment. Thanks and don’t let the noobs change anything.
Placebo-More money (especially in cables-gas filled anyone) does not necessarily mean better. The people at Big Box stores and real stereo stores are there to upsell you. That’s their job. Telling the truth may not be a part of their job description.
My personal journey has been more so helped by experts like yourselves. The basic explanation for what type of changes has helped me personally distinguish different sound descriptions like, sound imaging, warm vs bright and neutral.
I recently added a marantz mm9000 amp for the front L&R channels. Bi-amps with surround channels, split the preout with y-splitters.
Now my focus is if the bi-amp has made a noticeable difference or not.
If anyone could point out differences to listen for comparing biamp vs not. Please comment.
Music is quickly changing thing that you can’t hold in front of you like a picture so it is hard to compare sources of music perfectly as your second hearing of even the same sounds begin to sound different (as anyone knows when listening to repetitive music, especially ones with repeated voice samples). Ear fatigue sets in too and the imagination is at work (remembering what others have said in a review or marketing about a device), and memory is difficult too. Imagination seems to go into overdrive when the situation is the most difficult to discern logically (and when one feels compelled to come up with an observation about a difference observed by another competing male).
This hobby has gotten extremely divided over the years. The forums are a complete waste of time. The misinformation is so bad, I stopped participating years ago. Not many...MOST of these guys that bully members are full of themselves and full of crap. I only tune into a very few RUclips channels and websites. Mainly AUDIOHOLICS. Gene's no nonsense advice and opinions is what this hobby needs right now. The worst is arguing with an audio/video hobbiest or a snide uppity audiophile over HIS opinion. AUDIOHOLICS forum included. Thanks Gene!
@@TechStuff365 that's why I brought the subject up. The placebo affect is one of many that divides. For me, it's QUALITY. I will spend allot of money on quality. For example: everyone goes nuts for cheap Amazon brand and let's say, Monoprice. Guess what? They are both CHEAP in quality. Nothing in my system will contain the words Amazon Basics or Monoprice. But if you do? Fine, it's your money. I'll still be your friend and will not belittle you or tell you you're nuts. If that's what you want in your rack, more power to you. However, my cable brand for example in which a few are Mogami, Blue Jeans or Belden will not only sound better but outlast your "Amazon" Basics or cheap ass Monoprice!! My opinion of course 😂😎
Placebo is very strong. 30 years ago I gave a real and moderate pill killer to a patient and told him that it is a vitamin C . After an hour patient's pain still remain the same. But gave him a multi vitamin (large and beefy) and told him that this is the strongest pain killer we had, after an hour and he said he felt better. I did not know if that was true or not, but I believed him and thought the pain killer finally working.
Wait. So, are you a physician and experimented with a patient like this?
I know right…… the “good doctor”
Here probably does some shady monkey business 😬
The reason some speakers have two sets of inputs is to use one amp for the tweeters and one amp for the woofers. The upper set controls the tweeter and the lower set controls the bass. This is helpful for aidioheads to use say a hybrid or tube amp for the tweeters and a solid state amp for the bass.
I owned a reasonably good set of speakers with two sets of binding posts allowing for bi-wiring. This was the Polk Lsim 707.
With a decent 110 watt per speaker HK receiver I bi-wirred them and could hear no difference.
Later I owned a higher end NAD with two sets of speaker outs allowing for bi-wiring (not for bi-amping) and I did believe I heard a difference. There was seemingly more bass out-put. It wasn't a massive difference but I believed it was significant and clearly there. I did go back and forth to "confirm" this but I didn't ask someone to give me a blind test.
According to most on here , you must be wrong . Trust your ears , not their so called expertise
There could be a set of circumstances where the listener indeed hears a significant improvement when bi-wiring. If those jumpers are corroded or not making a good contact, then switching to the bi-wiring may (falsely) convince them it was the method of connection, and not the ill-fitted jumper.
I biwired my surrounds just because I didn't know any better. I used those extra pairs to feed the tops when I upgraded to 7.x.4. Made no difference taking the biwiring off the surrounds.
From my perspective, an important factor in this is the desire to justify buying equipment, cables, etc.
I think the reason this fellow fell for it might be that he used to have a set of modest speakers before, then upgraded to something real far upscale on the quality department.
As he was setting up these new speakers, he took the time to biwire them properly. So when he turned them on and they blew away what he had previously, he attributed at least a portion of that improvement to the biwiring work he had so painstakingly conducted. And there you have it.
Gene, this is absolutely a great topic and video. The point you made that really stood out for me was that speaker manufacturers really do use objective measurements. There is always some hard science involved in research and manufacturing. Using the ear alone to research and manufacturer would be a throwback to the early 40s and 50s kit era of high fidelity where results would be subjective, questionable and inconsistent. It's at the consumer end where subjectivity seems to be the rule rather than the exception these days. I really appreciate the fact that you periodically bring out similar topics to remind the consumer not to fall for any placebo effect, especially with cables.
Audioholics is outstanding when it comes to using objective measurements to assess performance. At the same time, the measurements are balanced with subjective observations.
I fell prey to the cable nonsense back in the mid-90s when my curiosity got the better of me. So I bought a Monster Cable Interlink 300 for one of my components and a pair of Monster Cable speakers. While I couldn't make an A/B comparison between my old cables and the then new Monster Cables, I quickly found that there was no apparent difference. From that day on, I vowed never to become a victim to anymore nonsense.
I grew up on a steady diet of Audio Magazine, High Fidelity and Stereo Review (Sound & Vision's Predecessor). My own experience validated the objective approach of these publications.
But I'm glad you took the torch and continue to present the truth to a new generation of audiophiles.
By the way, you're not that old. I wish I was still 48.
Price and looks have a huge impact on perception. That's why blind tests lead to funny results (if done right)
In the immortal words of Ron White: "Let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix stupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. Stupid is forever."
Hi Gene, this topic will never go away, nor will you change anyone's mind. Those who agree will have their opinions reinforced, and those who disagree will not change their mind because you are negating their experience.
I'm in the middle, I know for a fact that cables make a difference, however i believe the divide is caused because of the obscene prices some manufactures charge. I agree, they do not carry their weight in price to benefit ratio.
That's why I design and build my own cables, win/win. Definitely worth it there.
I think many audiophiles are somewhat neurotic. They fret constantly that they're not getting the best possible sound. This makes it easy to prey on their insecurities. It's natural to "hear" a difference when you've spent money on something. No one wants to think he wasted money. TV3001 is using tactics straight out of the subjectivist playbook: "you don't hear differences because your ears and/or equipment aren't good enough. Only the audiophile elite can hear them". That's the Emperor's New Clothes tactic.
In my listening and HT room the biggest sound changes can be made by speaker placement. The second was some treatment for room slap and first reflection.
The speaker cable wars are interesting to listen to. On one hand the measurement side of the argument uses some simple measurements to justify bashing the listening side of the debate. On the other side the listening folks say we don’t know anything about engineering but we can hear a difference. Both sides are pretty committed to their position.
I have a different view point. First, measurements are very important to anyone who is planning on designing anything. It is the only way you can verify your design model. Without measurements you can’t verify your design and, just as important, uncover design flaws and errors. In todays world you can model just about anything if you want to take the time and money to do so. Unfortunately, you might only model what you know about. So, the design measurement process can uncover unknown causes and effects.
My point is where is the model of the sound you hear from the amplifier to your ears? In fact, put the microphone one meter away from the speaker and measure some music. Not a single test tone, but real music of your choosing across its bandwidth over time. It’s pretty complex. Remember to keep track of time and phase. I think it might be important. A pretty complex task and way more intensive than most audiophiles want to even think about. Just measuring that for a two channel system consistently could be a challenge. Then change cables and repeat. Is it different? If so, is it audible? What does your model say? Then repeat these measurements using the binaural earphones. How does the data compare.
My point in all this is pretty simple. There are a bunch of folks that hear a difference by changing speaker cables. Some of them might know what they are doing. So, before you go bashing them you might consider that the measurement of resistance and inductance could be insufficient. It might be more complicated.
I’m not saying that all the crazy claims made by some cable guys are true. Actually, some of it is quite entertaining. All I’m saying is there is some evidence that speaker cables have an effect on some revealing systems. So maybe we can be a little understanding of the two positions.
Just remember the old engineering rule. A young engineer thinks he knows everything and a old one knows he doesn’t. This comes from a guy who was one for 35 years.
In audio, if you think it sounds different, well, I guess it does, to you. I’m ok with that.
Great video. I think people fall victim to placebo in audio because they don’t want to feel that they got duped…or because they want to believe they have “better hearing” than they actually do.
Gene, you are one of the very few that I would thrust for advice! Great presentation!
TMI try to keep it PG13
Gene is one of the few you would backdoor for advice?
My father was an excellent business man and one day,back when I was really young mowing yards for money during summer vacation he gave me some advice. He told me to give my customers an option list ,different packages if you will of my services. He said to make sure I had a "special" package and to charge exactly double my rate for it. So I made up some flyers and put them on doors in my neighborhood. I was shocked at how many of my customers chose the special package! Now mind you my special package was just a reworded version of what I normally did! I was also amazed and confused by how many people who chose the double priced special package and would actually go on and on how much better their yard looked after! Lol!! Anyways that's when I learned people will pay for the ideation of something better! It doesn't even need to be better. Just the illusion of better is sometimes just as good.
Your father is wise.
We can never discount the placebo effect. Thank you for raising this issue.
It's not so much placebo effect as cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance arises when we hold one belief and are presented with factual evidence that contradicts that belief. Particularly if we have a great deal invested in something (money, time, effort), this can make us very uncomfortable. Some are better at resolving cognitive dissonance by accepting facts than others. Some simply can't do it, and dig in ever deeper to their beliefs, defending them vigorously against the perceived assault. You see this in many areas, but politics is another notable example.
Another good video Gene.
People who have been in the game for a long time and listened to many home systems often say more that half (actually they usually say about three quarters) of people's personal hifi systems actually sound very average despite the big bucks invested. You should do a video where you visit volunteer's homes, set up some equipment in their listening position and explain/demonstrate where they are going wrong (or right!). It will be your most successful video series. If you were in Australia I'd volunteer first.
Cheers mate,
Tony
Hi gean great vid really enjoyed .I have a friend who recently bought new audio cables replacing his old pair which cost him £1200 uk pound he did this ×3 and the new pairs he purchased were £3000 ×3 I were invited over to listen to the new cables perform on his home audio and quite honestly I couldn't hear any difference my friend was convinced passionately .I didn't have the heart to tell him as in the past I have done and he didn't take it on board and got upset he has got a great sounding system but I do find myself having to lie just to keep him happy as he falls foul to the placebo effect very often many thanks gean I have learnt so much from your channel audioholics 👍😀
Best placebo effect is having a few drinks while listening to your system, it's repeatable and sometimes it's even better than the last time. 😊
Alcohol has a measurable effect on the brain yes. But how is that placebo?
@@alphaniner3770 Simple, with enough alcohol the psychological benefit will be improved sound perception.
LOL. Sensitivity to distortion at high volumes diminishes!
A few drinks are one thing and your system gets all chocolatey midrange. Then if you keep drinking, your system can’t be loud enough.😂
@@mrwilliamwonder I guess we can't argue against that. I remember listening to my headphones with a good drink at night when my wife came into my man cave asking what the hell I was doing - a reason not to get open back headphones perhaps...
Hey Gene. I've a geek for HIFI as well home theater for over 2 decades, i had tested on the same system, single good wiring connection to the amp, and do the same biwiring.. I can tell you there is not a single advantages in to do so at all. Except in spending double the money. But the real game changer come to play if you decide to make the giant leap when is come to increase the sound stage and quality and it when Biamping comes into a play. Better bass response, the mids and highs sound more separate and detailed. Specially if the speaker has great crossxover network quality built. Is important to try to use better horizontal amplification to keep the same gain levels, except the customer know what he is really doing matching vertical amps.
This is my sincerely humble experience.
I almost fell for the placebo effect too. I was going to upgrade all my speaker cables from 16 awg zip cord to 12 awg twisted cable with fancy covering and insulation and then I watched your video about Audio Quest 5000$ cable where the battery actually caused higher Capacitance. I might still do that just for esthetics but I think I now realize it won't do anything to improve the listening experience.
For a start, I don't see myself as an audiophile but I enjoy listening to music and I like it to sound as good as possible. And I am a mixer. I mix multitrack recordings to a stereo master. The most important thing I have learned in the more then 30 years I am doing this is what you actually think what you hear is not the sound which is coming into your ears, but what your brain makes of it. When I am listening to a mix after a busy day when I am pretty tired I hear something completely different as when I listing to exact the same mix the next day early in the morning when I am fresh and full of energy. The mix which sounded not good at all the day before suddenly sounds a lot better, when actually the only thing which is changed is my state of mind and nothing else.
When realizing this, I think I can understand how people can hear things which I can't hear. When different people are listening to exactly the same soundsource they all hear something different. What they hear will depend on their listening experience. A well trained ear can hear much more than an inexperienced listener.The well trained ear knows what to listen for.
So I think when audiophiles are hearing things which I can't hear there are two options. 1) They have a better trained ear and can hear things I can't hear, or 2) they want to hear something (because they have spend a lot of money for it) or really think they are hearing something which is not actually there. If they think they hear something and even become convinced of it, they are fooling themselves. But if this makes them happy, let them be happy.
Audiophiles can be audiofools. We’ve all been there…but it’s always good to check biases against facts!
I just got into high end two channel.
I have invested now 15,000 plus.
I have been analyzing this whole hobby now for 2 years “in my journey”.
I have come to the conclusion that the biggest lie the audio manufacturers have sold the enthusiasts on their journeys is, ”audio equipment is a “purer signal” if you have no tone controls.” This has given them all licence to pick apart every micro aspect of any system which may and may not make a difference. At times I am in bliss, other times I am… am I crazy, why the heck am I listening to all these people talk about micro properties that can mathematically and scientifically only make .0005% difference.
Agreed. Part of the fun is being an amateur sound engineer. There's lots of variability in the source material... so you need the ability to adjust. Bass., treble, even "mid" -- those controls are necessary. There is also a time an place for using the "loudness" switch (if you have it). I also use graphic equalizers and even have BBE "maximizers" hooked-up to my systems in order to tailor the sound to my tastes and account for the differences in the source -- recording differences (older material versus newer material -- and other differences) as well as the input source (CDs, LP/vinyl, MP3's on a thumb drive or SD card, etc.) -- and the notion that you would not make any tweaks/adjustments is absurd.
Possibly due to 'sunk cost' as well. If someone spends a lot of time and/or money on something and it fails to live up to expectations, they may double down still believing it is great despite all evidence to the contrary. It is hard to admit it when you have wasted money on a product.
The biggest victims of the placebo effect are high end amp buyers. That when hearing a $10k amp it will be better than a well designed $2k amp with similar output capabilities (wattage into 8, 4ohms, etc) on same speakers, volume levels.
Man I've had super expensive amps, mainly to play with and flip, and I keep my ati and outlaw audio amps. A 1505 and a 770. I've never felt like anything more expensive was better at all. Just as good sure. But better? Nah I'll take the profit. Just like the high end dealers do lol.
I experimented with bi-wiring and I believe there was a slight difference though I’m pretty sure it’s just the same effect as using two expensive speaker cables in parallel to one set of posts, I.e. the effect is simply due to a small reduction in the total load on the amp. It wasn’t enough of an ‘improvement’ for me to keep the bi-wiring.
I think the broader point of placebos and self-fulfillment is absolutely true. I’m an old English hifi enthusiast and have been fiddling ‘improving’ my system over 50 years! It’s true that small changes in things like mains smoothing and changing interconnects make an audible difference so, for a short time, you hear new nuances in your favorite music. Whether it’s a genuine improvement is another thing, however. It’s merely a short-term novelty and I’d bet that most of us could reverse the ‘technical improvement’ after a few weeks and notice yet further ‘audio improvements’.
It’s all in the mind but this is what keeps the profits up in the audio industry.
"statmat" for the CD player as another example. A piece of plastic with "special magic coating on" that you put on the top of the CD before it loaded, that was supposed to distribute static electricity evenly on the surface of the CD. I bought it in the store after a demo night, because I was certain I could hear difference at the demo. I could never hear any difference at home. Not when I tried it on/off my self, or when I had my wife help me blind-testing it. It was "only" about 15$ back in 1996 or so.
I also fell for the bi-wiring many years ago with my first surround system. At the same time I also fell for buying more wire, so that I had the EXACT same length to all LCR speakers. 4 meters bi-wire (8 meters of wire per speaker), so I ended up buying 24 meters for those three speakers, where I could have been equally fine with app. 9 meters. Also - the store earned more because I payed them for mounting plugs on the wires, so a lot more plugs and workings hours that I had to pay for.
I bi-wired my speakers because it looks fancy. If it looks fancy then it makes me happy 🙂
why does that make you happy?
Probably because the rear of the speakers are facing out into the room.
I totally agree that bi-wiring by itself doesn't do anything. But it does give hobbyist and tinkerers a chance to add external networks to the speakers without breaking into them. For instance adding a simple resistive pad can lower the relative loudness between the mid/tweeter and woofer speakers. And of course there are manufacturing variations in the speakers that it can addressed on an individual basis. Then there's the difference in output impedance between tubes and solid state that can be compensated for. The real fun begins figuring out the compensation that makes a speaker sound "better", what ever that is.
Bi wiring became popular here in the UK in the nineties. Hi fi reviewers decided it was a good thing and would criticise any speaker above a certain price point that didn’t have it. I’m pretty sure the manufacturers knew it was nonsense but felt that their product would be at a disadvantage in the market without it and would include the feature.
I’ve noticed it seems to have fallen out of favour now. Even fairly expensive speakers are single wired now.
When I started this hobby in 2012 I searched and watched lots of channels and read 100s of articals about sound reproduction amplifiers designs, loudspeakers designs, room acoustics and stuff, and audioholics was one of the channels that paid my attention and soon it became my reference and no1 channel on RUclips. Everyone who believes in science and logic should appreciate audioholics for all what it gave and still giving to its viewers /readers from education and realness in audio. Gene you are a legend!
The placebo effect is incredibly powerful in humans. I am a physician with an undergraduate engineering degree. This effect has been described and documented many, many times in human studies. In the audio industry, the placebo effect is "off the wall" and is used to sell numerous products. Honestly, the audio industry is no different from the rest of society. People believe what they want to believe, regardless of the science or evidence. Sad, but true and I don't think it will ever change.
This channel truly is such a gem. Bravo!
I trusted reviewers that wrote for magazines and went out and bought the equipment that they said it was the best amp and then realized that they said that with everything they reviewed got me thinking that best thing for me is too go and listen first and let my ears hear it and then decide if I want it.
Great video. I like how you explain how you feel and the science behind what you say/feel. It’s good to do a video discussion about peoples comment. It shows a maturity level beyond the normal channel.
As an Hi-Fi repair tech, i have had to do some strange things to keep customers happy.
The placebo effect is very apt when it comes to audiophiles.
I started doing repairs during the Hi-Fi boom of the 70's and as more and more strange
fixes were pushed out with glowing reviews by the magazines, who convinced these people
that they must have the latest fix no mattter how crazy or expensive it was.
Don't get me started on speaker cable or interconnects, yes the cheap cables that came with
some gear were best thrown away, but at the other extreme the way overpriced and overhyped
ones were just expensive, and made little if any difference to a sensible priced one
Yet these audophiles bought them.
At times it was a nightmare, you had to go to their homes to try and fix a fault that just wasn't
there, many times i have taken gear back to the workshop, ran it for hours trying to find these
strange faults, most of the time i kept it for a few days, then returned it saying that i had found
a cure, but not even taken the covers off! 🤔
Gene, thanks for this timely, important video. Audioholics and ASR are carrying the banner for accountability and science in audio. This industry is rife with snake oil, so we need pros like you and Amir to continue keeping ‘em honest!
The performance car industry is full of placebo affect, I.E. K&N filters, vortex air intakes, various mufflers.
Most filters and intakes are BS, but software tunes, that's where the HPs are hiding! But unfortunately it only really works in cars that are tuned down from the factory....
@@fredygump5578 Actually owned a 2014 F type V8S, lost it in a flood from hurricane sally, where I did a performance tune and a supercharger pulley change out. Went from 505hp to 630hp (engine) on the dyno.
@@dennisw4654 My GTI went from 220 to 300hp with a software tune. :) And all I really wanted was the ability to left foot brake without the throttle getting cut....
Talking about Placebo effect, considering the reverse aspect, isn't it possible that super-audiophiles who have convinced themselves that different cables/ cords/ components don't make any audible difference, end up hearing no difference, when some others are able to perceive the difference ?
How would one hear a difference if there isn't one to be heard. Besides, proper blind testing would control for both sides.
Outside of controlled studies, yes this can happen. Actually a major problem with forced choice blind testing is that the sensitivity of the test to changes is very poor. It depends on the human to be careful and intentional on their choice. Imagine a person given different shades of green. They need to choose those which are different than a reference. They may not feel like carefully comparing the close colors to the reference color and would choose them randomly. This intentional lack of carefulness messes up the results.
Now imagine someone does this intentionally because they simply don’t believe that such “close colors” exist. If it’s so close it’s hard to tell the difference then it’s functionally identical and this why bother.
With sound differences, if there was a very close and hard to hear difference, and the listener didn’t believe there could possibly be a difference, then they won’t be careful and will likely choose randomly. However that means they know flight about the study conditions to have drawn a biased opinion. In a well done controlled study you would try to avoid telling the individual what they are comparing. Only that they need to indicate which sounds different (or possibly better).
ABX testing is not infallible. It has problems. If you look up the literature on the problems with ABX testing, you will find lots of detailed information on the problems. But it’s important to remember that the problems of a test do not validate nonsense. So you can’t just say, the testing method has some problems, therefor my unfounded beliefs must be true.
We also don’t use listening tests as the exclusive reason for drawing conclusions. The same is true of drug trials. The end effect of a drug trial is not the first step. First you need a proper theory of the mechanism of action. Why would it make a difference in the first place? Does that theory hold up to scrutiny? If it does, then test that. Not if it’s audible, but if the mechanism of action actually leads to the objective change expected. In this case, a cable must change the signal passing through it. If it doesn’t, then no change has taken place and no change in sound is possible. From there you usually test the mechanism of action do audibility. Maybe you believe the cable can reduce a specific type of distortion. Then you would add that distortion to a musical file and test. Is it audible on its own?
@@SlyNine I agree. Blind test is the only way to solve this.
Gene's patience with those who have fallen for the equivalent of mesmerism (the teachings of Franz Mesmer) rivals the patience that Carl Sagan had with such people. I respect the endurance.
I've tried all sorts of audiophoolery tricks. The most ridiculous one was power cables. I do believe in spending a little more money on a quality interconnect that is well shielded, but even then, I don't hear any differences between the cheap RCA cables that come with equipment and better ones. Same goes for speaker cables - I get the correct gauge for the distance, but tend to stay away from anything under 16 gauge.
In the end it's just people trying to justify their expensive purchases. Disregarding all objective evidence and facts to say their ears are better and they know better. Companies like Monster and Audioquest etc. love people like that! You've delivered some of the best objective research on RUclips, it's too bad some people can't handle the facts.
Handle the fact? As if its a life or death situation. Lol
@@jpined14 To some of these people it seems like it is to them lol
@@justinbeamon6624 I agree with you. Its nuts to spend that much on some wires.
After watching how the internal wiring of most components are some Home Depot zip cord quality stuff its funny how much debate cables bring.
Lol
I don't think many people fall victim to the placebo effect. As long as you use a dust buster on the air between you and the speakers before listening it should sound pretty good.
You are a very smart man, all makes perfect sense. That is what makes this channel great.
the world is viewed through our own individual filters of experience, beliefs, values and identity.
Deleting, distorting and generalising everything we experience.
If you think you can- you can.
It works both ways too
When I demo a killer sound, and the prospect says “I don’t want to blow away the neighbour’s”
Is really saying “I don’t want to afford this system”
no one cares more about a neighbour than they do themselves
Rather “Blame” the value proposition on someone else, to save their own ego.
I have no problem people not buying the big stuff, just an example of how people will “defend” their ideas, and values.
Often by Blame and shame rather taking responsibility to learn something , Amit they could be wrong or show gratitude for something brilliant and beautiful.
Gene you Are spot on !,,,,, 👍I by wired and by Amped and it made no difference to my hearing but then again I’m 72 and I’m probably half deaf.
I agree with you on the “Placebo effect” and that our brains can play tricks on us. However I don’t agree that simply because we can’t scientifically test a difference, that there is no difference. This would imply our current testing capabilities is equal to that of the brains. I fully understand the testing is more consistent and can do somethings better than the brain, but my main point is that the testing and the brain themselves are different, therefore I believe it is possible to have something “test”the same and yet for some people to still be able to hear a difference. I am. Not one of those people, so I don’t bi-wire, I don’t have experience speaker cables or power cables, but I am still open to the idea that others can hear differences that our current testing equipment cannot detect.
My Denton 85th Anniversary speakers have a serious boost in the upper treble. Tried everything, even putting 1 ohm resistors instead of the jumpers (which actually works, BTW) but it wasn't until I bi-wired them that everything fell into place. Suddenly, after months of tweaking and experimenting, the Dentons suddenly sounded balanced. I had given up hope, I did not believe it would make a difference, but most definitely did. And the difference is not subtle either. In fact, it's so obvious that I think there must be a design flaw somewhere (in the crossover?) because it's like someone has turned down the treble tone control to zero. I have no doubt that in most cases it wouldn't make a difference.
At 60, I am today an "audio enthusiast" and not an "audiophile". To me, if you are an audiophile, you should be able to hear all the frequencies from 20 Hz to 20 KHz (or at least 18 KHz). In other words, you should be a teenager. Being also an electronics engineer, I fully agree that bi-wiring is nonsense when you use good quality cables, which most speaker cables are nowadays. But the worst of all placebo effects is when people say that vinyl sounds better than CD's. It is totally nonsense, and the superiority of 16-bit, 44.1 kHz sampling digital audio recordings against vinyl recordings has been technically proven with measurement instruments. I bought myself a new great quality record player some 5 years ago and restarted a small vinyl collection, but this has more to do with nostalgia than anything else. I miss those days when I was a teenager and played vinyl records.
Here's an example of the placebo effect. Comparisons of SACD "transports". In my view, digital is digital, and DSD rules supreme! If one has an integrated amp (such as my Aventage A8) that has terrific DACs built-in, or if one needs an external DAC, then the quality in the digital data stream from the "transport" is going to be virtually the same whether it's on a $300 or $3,000 device.
Some audio upgrades are outta control. I realized that’s when they came out with audiophile fuses costing hundreds claiming to make your system sound better. At the end of the day all
You need is a solid dac, preamp and amp, and of course good speakers.
Gene, as you say the mind's power is strong. If you think it's going to sound better it will. I don't want to paint everyone with the same brush but I wonder if those that don't have a reasonable science or engineering background struggle more with the basic concepts of why certain things can't sound better. There's also the issue of catching "upgraditis". Those that have the bug perhaps need to feel their constant search for the next upgrade isn't in vein and so want to hear improvements in whatever they do for validation. I'm on a couple of face book groups where snake oil improvements get regularly discussed - I really don't know how to let the believers (who are generally nice guys) down gently! Any tips? I've kind of given up trying.
I wonder if ESS Technology regrets naming their DAC "Sabre." Not surprised when reviewers always describe the DAC sound as "sharp," "edgy," and "metallic." AKM was smart when they branded their DAC chip "Velvet Sound." I bet the sound from the AKM chip is smooth, soft, but could be wooly in the bass.
The sabre DAC goes right along with the "thrust for advice" comment a few comments above it. At least that's my stab at it. Of course it doesn't help that I watched the two 300 movies back to back last night.
People on all the audiophile forums have been going a bit crazy with this placebo stuff lately. Yes, placebo effects exist, and I've been subject to them (please keep in mind I said that). But oddly, for people who believe in precise measurements as the answer to everything, the broad, vague, individually variable, and highly imprecise notion of "placebos" seems now to explain everything. As I've said, I've experienced them, but in my experience, they tend to be very short-lived. Over time, with longer-term listening and with suitable comparisons, your ears will tell you the truth. (Many people in the comments here report overcoming any placebo effects in just this way.) If my system, over time, sounds bad for whatever reason, my ears will tell me. And if it sounds good, my ears will also tell me that over time. All this, to me, raises a question, which is that if placebo effects are always working on us, why ever trust your ears at all? You don't even have to listen to your system. Just turn it on, look at the lights on the control panel, and IMAGINE how wonderful it sounds! If imagination is so overwhelmingly powerful, take advantage of it and save yourselves the trouble of actually using cables at all -- you'll have a much better listening experience! Placebo effects RULE!
I can't say if biwiring has an effect. I used to have my speakers biwired, when I was young.
But I can tell you one thing, that will give you a hundred times bigger effect, than what you (think) you hear, in biwiring. An effect, that *anyone* can hear, and that's speaker placement and angle to the listener. Even a non-audiophile will be able to tell the difference.
Part of the problem here I think can be "Conformational Bias". You went through the expense and effort therefore it must sound better. And, then there is the law of diminishing returns.
That $4000 turntable has to sound better than the $500 turntable.
I'm 71 and yes my hearing is not what it used to be but it is still good enough to tell the difference between a good and bad system.
I was using a Thorens TD-160 turntable with a Shure V15III cartridge, purchased new in 1976 ($256) I had no complaints about the sound and it was a dependable TT. About a year ago I had the urge to step up to a VPI Prime w/ 10.5" arm and Ortofon 2m Bronze cart. ($4000). I have since replaced the stylus with an Ortofon 2M black LVB.
Funny thing, the VPI Bronze combo was pretty close to the 45yr old Thorens Shure combo and the Black 250 was marginally better. Knowing what I know now I probably would not have made the purchase but I have no regrets. On the other hand, I think most making this upgrade would claim they were blown away by the difference. (I have a comparo video on youtube of this setup).
To further elaborate, the system used:
McIntosh MA352 Integrated Amp
McIntosh MC275 power amp running on output 2 of the MA352.
Project Tube Box S2 for the Thorens
Niles speaker selector to balance the level of the two amps
Klipsch Forte IIs modified (on the 275)
JBL L100 Classic (on the 352)
I was warned about comb filtering using the 4 speakers - I certainly don't hear it.
Both TTs provide great reproduction with accurate sound
If you spend $500 or $100000? in the end if you like your system that is all that matters.
Another wonderful, and practical lecture, Gene; and demonstration! Thumbs up. Furthermore, from My Experience of listening to most categories of music, I agree with no less than 97% of what you have explained. I'm also very glad that I have watched this RUclips hi fi audio topic on bi-wiring; in the recent past I was curious about maybe getting into that configuration! Fortunately, I have watched your RUclips hi fi audio topic; thank you very much.
As for the Placebo Effect, all I can actually say is that I have studied 1st year psychology when I was in first year university in my very early twenties. In a past RUclips lecture you said that such a Placebo Effect is "psychological", and pointed to the upper side, close to front area of your head; fair enough. HOWEVER, the area for hearing is near the back of the human head behind the ear; thus after the hearing apparatus - my phrase.
From my perception, and that it is about hearing, maybe it could be called Mental. Since there are four perspectives of psychology: behavioral, cognitive, biological, and psychodynamic. The fourth perspective, whereby the study, and practice of psychology is within the case studies, theories, and results of Sigmund Freud, and Carl G. Jung.
Anyway, I'm almost going off the topic, but I think you get my point. In these cases of your topic of, "Why Do Audiophiles Fall for Placebo Effect?" it belongs in the Cognitive Perspective of psychology; for the most part. Mainly my opinion. Keep up the wonderful measured work.💿🔉🎵🎶
You can have two cars that have the same performance specs, but feel and drive very different, there are many things that cannot be measured like a good meal with the same ingredients in a bad meal with the same ingredients. Just enjoy the music. 😊
Gene, I too realized that "mood" is a major factor in how we perceive the quality of sound from our systems. No one is immune to the placebo effect, but some people (driven by logic before emotions) are much better at noticing and avoiding falling for the cognitive bias. If people hear differences, yet can't reliably discern the differences with a blind A/B test, then they are clearly fooling themselves with placebo effects. I'm not good at fooling myself, nor do I want too. I can tell that you are the same. Reality is a dictator (it is what it is) and I am totally okay with that.
If audiophiles took the time to at least learn the basics of electronics, they would never consider wasting their money on such snake oil as a $500 + power cord that does jack sh!t for sound improvements.
Good jumper cables are essential! Dump the cheap supplied plates & invest in good pair of cables - guaranteed to make a difference! Also, plug the HF cable into upper jack and the LF cable into the lower jack… try it and let me know the diff. Thx.
The placebo effect is present in all aspects of life. I witnessed it in myself & others while working in the music industry. If a person thinks that biwiring a speaker makes a difference, it does, to them. They manifested it, and that's fine. Just don't argue it as fact. There is no proof of it. ALSO - Quote from the "whales" Star Trek (voyage home). That was the first Star Trek movie my dad took me to.
I think your channel and opinion is a valuable part of discussion and debate. It helps contribute to educating folks. My criticism is when folks try to prove absolute or black and white answers. Obviously, audio is subjective. This video sounds like a response based on facts, engineering and science...very absolute.
Considering people can show pregnancy symptoms and even show physical change in the body based solely on an expectation without actual pregnancy, a condition known as false pregnancy (pseudocyesis) really shows how as human we're at the utmost mercy of our very unreliable mind.
This has help me choose 12g Blue Jean wire instead of 14g biwire. Also I did magnet test and Klipsch jumper bar won't stick. I say I on simple path for better sound. Thank you.
he's talking about GR Research
My take on Bi-wireing is take the shortest run Possible! One cable to the speakers Woofer connect and then use a jumper wire to the tweeter - "over two long wires" running from the amp as one to woofer then another one to tweeter! I do hate the cheap binding post Metal jumpers tho and replace them with good copper or Silver cable....
Confirmation bias is a real thing. Some people are extremely hard to sway despite providing rock-solid proof that contradicts their opinion or belief. And, that was at the beginning of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home when Spock was retraining his mind and education.
Bi-wiring is a cheap gimmick that can be used as a selling point. That's all it is. A marketing tool. No big deal. I have used bi-AMPLIFICATION in concert halls, but with much larger equipment. That's just part of professional music production. Not to offend anyone, but facts are facts, and I have tested bi-wiring and heard no difference with highly resolving B&W speakers. Thanks for the video, good information.
Wiring your top end and low end separately on different amps, "bi-amping" can make a difference, on certain speakers more than others, simply because you can change the top end character of the sound with whatever amp/receiver you choose, and the low end you can do the same with amps with different damping factors, tighter, faster etc. So I have to say due to trying it many times, on certain speakers especially with very little or no crossovers, I believe it can make a significant difference and can be fun because of being able to try different amps on the top end and all that jazz. So "bi-amping" does make a difference is my point.
Except I wasn't talking about biamping in this video.
It's simple... People want magic. That is all. If you can explain everything you cannot argue what is better what is worse. It's all in data, undebatable. The only debate may happen about preferences.
So an audiophile confuses preferences with quality. To keep consistency in that you need to believe in some special, unmeasurable magic.
The worst placebo for me were... amplifiers. I had two very similar amps... At the beginning i was 100% sure the more expensive one (Naim ;-)) sounds better. It has "magic" in higher frequencies... I heard it untill... Blind test...
Thanks for your video presentations. I like listening to music on a good hi-fi system but do not consider myself an audiophile by any means. I also like watching audio presentations like yours and have been puzzled by the furore about audio interconnects and power cables. I've watched audio experts say how they can definitely hear marked differences. But then others say no. As you state, it's what you want to believe though I would like to know for sure if there is any difference at all and if so, how does it happen. I really enjoy your down-to-earth factual presentations. Please continue doing what you do. Very best wishes from Sydney, Australia.
One of the common placebo effects among audiophiles is the belief that changing their loudspeakers to a better and more expensive pair will improve the sound. Once the source component signal starts its journey every other audio component in the system merely passes on this signal with greater or less accuracy. None can enhance or improve it.
If you want better sound buy better SPEAKERS as this makes the biggest difference in sound quality.
1. SPEAKERS (this is where at least 50% of your budget should be spent)
2. AMP
3. SOURCE
4. MEDIA
Cables are the last thing that will improve sound quality and shouldn't be more than 5% of your budget. Yes you need cables to carry the signal but don't overthink it.