😆. I will say there’s a certain charm to book 1’s that I always give huge credit to. Introducing the reader to new worlds, characters, and making you care. I still look back at book 1’s as some of my favorite stories (Fellowship, Way of Kings, etc) and even though I love their series as a whole, book ones just hit different. But im also a strange mind and get that people love Morning Star a lot more than me. Regardless great trilogy overall - Golden Son blew me away
@@2ToRamble i can’t wait for y’all to do iron gold and dark age, I love this channel and the dynamic between the two of you. Also for reference I have red rising: 7.9 golden son: 8.95 and morning star: 8.4
I think Austin's biggest problem with the book is that he fell in love with Darrow Au Andromedus and not Darrow O' Lykos. I fully believe that Darrow would be all wraith, hated, napalm, and viengar if the Jackal had really killed his family. But Darrow waking up and being surrounded by his family made the difference. I would fully agree with other plot issues stated if it had been the end to the story. But it wasn't! Thank Jove
The Ragnar scene destroyed me. I broke down ugly crying for like an hour. With Sevro I was dreading his death the whole time and I was still shocked but I kept on hoping they would save him somehow 😅
Darrow’s rage, brashness and trust or the lack there of you seem to believe there should be is constantly being trumped by the love he feels for those around them all through the series. A lot of what you feel like Darrow should be dies when he finally, let’s Sevro in, sees Dancer, realizes Fitchner is Ares, sees his mom back in Lykos, and is no longer alone in his quest. So him spending the time in the dark coming out knowing he should share the weight feels reasonable, especially when he sees his family safe in Tinos. I feel like that’s an important shift in his character that wasn’t mentioned.
Richard, you get the nod of approval for consistency. Austin, I have some words for you, my friend. If you don't want to read the essay that follows you can sum it all up succinctly as "You're an enigma and you must've lost your marbles somewhere between Golden Son and Morning Star." I want to address some of your complaints with Morning Star. I'll preemptively admit that some of them, while I don't agree, are just a simple case of differing views of the series. All good. Obvious heads up for Spoilers in my comment since I will be referencing the first three books. I'll start off with your issues regarding Darrow. I guess I haven't noticed this key difference up until this point, but it seems that the biggest character trait you associate with Darrow is rage, and that is just not the case. Yes, he is rageful, and has his moments of primal anger, but by and large that is not representative of who he is and has been for the entire series up to this point. Darrow, more than anything is about friendships and guidance. That is what makes him who he is beyond anything else. That is what he cares about, his friends, his men, his family. Richard mentioned this regarding his "trust issues" and how that plays into him not opening up to people and feeling responsible for the betrayals of Roque and Tactus. Beyond that, if Darrow was as rageful as you think he is, I believe he would've been far more ruthless leading up to Morning Star. Instead of being beaten at the institute for his men's crimes he would've just slaughtered or punished them. In another instance, the Gala maneuver from him wouldn't have gone off as smoothly as it did since he would've been more focused on rage and carnage than his comrades. There is a plethora of instances where Darrow chooses personal relationships and the guidance over rage. Rage really has always been something he channels during battle, never something he will let guide his choices elsewhere. The Darrow that I see would never take any pleasure in bombing the docks at Ganymede. Something of that level would be reserved for the likes of the Jackal or more morally questionable characters. I know you said that would make Darrow more interesting, but I don't see it. Realizing the lens, you viewed Darrow with now, I understand where you are coming from. My last note on Darrow would be the notion of his character arc completing early in this book. While it makes sense, given the notion of Darrow you see, I don't believe his arc concludes early in this book, or in this book at all. The aspect you covered with his trust issues may be resolved fast, but other issues surrounding his character like PTSD don't just go away. Also, the Mustang connection with him becoming a builder not just a destroyer is not entirely resolved till the near end of the book. Brown didn't intend for his arc to end this book either since he made the choice to continue the series in the midst of writing Morning Star. OK enough of Darrow. Victra being alive, did not bother me, but I think your angle on her is valid. Her moment at the end of Golden Son was very impactful. Also, she is the one to say "Bye Felica". Didn't really strike me as anything off since that was a relevant joke at the time of release and clearly meant in a comedy and off handed way. Nothing to dwell on for me. On the plot side of things, I know you mentioned not being at the most exciting moment at all times being a detriment of sorts. I will say, Morning Star takes a step back in a sense compared to the first two. Darrow has time to reset after his escape and recover what was lost physically and mentally. I think this is a massive bonus that we have those quieter and more slowburn moments in this book. Again, I understand how this can be a bummer if you wanted more of the format that was given in the first two installments. The last thing I will harp on is the prose complaints. I cannot wrap my head around thinking that the prose is the worst in the series so far. I understand your issues with some "movie references" being too much in some ways, but outside of that, this is the best book at this point in the series where prose is concerned. I know you kind of admitted to this, but it seems to me that you had a few problems with the characters/plot that bugged you to the point of it bleeding over into other categories that don't really involve the issues at hand. Side note: I know you're reading Dark Age currently, but I think when you are completely caught up, some of the issues you have with where you wanted the series to go in Morning Star may be resolved. There are four more books of greatness ahead of this point. Despite not agreeing with Austin's opinions on this book, props for being straight up about your gripes. For that, you aren't a pixie as far as I'm concerned. Finally, we are at the end of the road. The end of my longwinded jackass response that I spent more time than I should have on. Love the video even though some takes drove me up a wall. Keep rolling lads. Congrats on 10k, and I'll see you in the next video. Cheers my goodman.
Not sure if you guys read comments from old videos, but I just finished Morning Star last night. It was my favorite of the trilogy, but I also feel like it has more flaws than Golden Son. Morning Star felt like I was reading contrivance after contrivance after contrivance (Darrow being saved as soon as the book opens and with very little hassle, Darrow having time to go save Victra at the beginning, and her being alive at all for that matter after such a powerful death scene in Golden Son, Antonia being locked directly next to Thistle with bars she can conveniently reach through, a handful of things in the ending sequence) but for some reason it didn't bother me. To me, I guess I don't really expect Red Rising to be this awe-inspiringly tightly-written masterpiece of storytelling. It's a badass, fast-paced, dark, thrilling, melo-dramatic, insane space opera where you read for super emotional highs and gut-wrenching twists. Like if you go back and look at the OG Star Wars trilogy I'm sure there's a bunch of silly contrived shit, but like who the fuck cares. It's awesome. My absolute least favorite part of this book is this one paragraph passage where Antonia keeps telling Darrow it's "not his fault" as she breaks him down until he's crying in her arms. This scene is IDENTICAL to a very powerful scene in Good Will Hunting. It works perfectly for that movie for reasons I won't get into, but in this book it felt emotionally manipulative and a bit lazy. I have to assume it's a reference to that movie. The scene is effectively identical. There were some other emotionally manipulative moments, like Sevro's death most notably. Also the Jackal and Sovereign were absolute cartoon villains in my opinion, especially Jackal. I could not take him seriously. I agree with Richard that that hand-cutting scene in the first book was pretty much the apex of his character. I thought he would be may more interesting. Now he's like opening his arms out to Darrow and Mustang like "well well well what do we have here" lol. This is by far my favorite portrayal of Darrow. I found him a bit too melodramatic in the first two, which wasn't that big of a deal because it works for the story. But I basically didn't expect Pierce Brown to take this angle with his character, and I loved it. He feels so much more mature. I loved how it was about the other characters. Sevro, Mustang, Cassius, and Ragnar all get so many memorable moments in this book. As a reader I respond to complex and fleshed-out characters more than anything, so this book really just hit all of my personal emotional buttons. I teared up when Sevro is like "Dude your family is with me. You really think I'd let the Jackal have them?" Like he's just so unconditionally loyal man. I also just want to say Pierce Brown has so many moments of truly beautiful prose. I seriously cannot fathom just how much he improves from book 1 to books 2 and 3. It's like night and day. Austin, like other people have said, I think you hurt your own experience by setting your expectations too high. You loved Golden Son cause it's an awesome book, but I wonder how much of your enjoyment and rating came from what you HADN'T read yet. I feel like it's a trap we all can fall into when we find a series we really love. I'm reading some other stuff before continuing on, but hopefully I'll have Dark Age and Light Bringer read by the time your reviews come out. I buddy-read this series, and he finished all 6 books in like two weeks lol. So I have some catching up to do. Cheers :D
Just to add to your comment about one of the scenes being identical to one in Good Will Hunting- I’ve noticed that Mr Brown rips off a few things from popular movies/books/culture. The one that sticks out to me the most is that his character Pliny from GS seemed to take a lot of ‘inspiration’ from the character Varys or ‘the spider’ from the A Song of Ice and Fire series. Like a less complex version. There were a few others well but that was the most obvious example to me.
Basically what I’m getting out of Austin’s morning star and light bringer ratings is he doesn’t like when Darrow actually develops and isn’t just a a rageful menace😭
Lol fair! I think I expected a darker turn, or more of a Dune-esque “you have become what you sought to destroy” and then redeem himself from there, at least in Morning Star
If I'm remembering correctly, this was after Darrow tells his risky ass plan to a blue, who mind you, are literal walking computers. Darrow's plans are always risky. He knows the odds of them working are never in his favor. Him saying "Never tell me the odds" after the blue says "Sir the odds of you succeeding in this plan are 4.12 in 100" or some shit like that makes a ton of sense, considering who he is. I find it intriguing that you found that line to be cringy or at fault. Do you mind explaining why it was bad, or at least not good?
I love how in the first Red Rising review Richard said that Austin would have to drop his score by necessity, but here we are with both Red Rising and Golden Son as perfection and Morning Star as "it's okay" lol
SPOILERS: Is anyone else frustrated by the first-person narration deliberately obfuscating the Sevros fake death? Like, Darrow clearly knew from the beginning that Sevro wasn't actually dead, yet his narration was him acting like he had no idea and he was so gutted. Really poor usage of the narration to try and create a huge twist.
I had a problem with that at first. Now, my head canon is that he was thinking about Sevros being actually dead to help himself act better. I'm a good liar because I convince myself temporarily that the lie is true in my head. Maybe Darrow was doing the same. When he described the smell of the box they were in as only sweaty and not sweaty and bloody, that's when I took the hint.
Personally, I found the complete opposite. Yeah Darrow had a bit of inner narration about his grief, but it was NO WHERE near as much as what he had for other fallen friends like Pax, Ragnar, Lorn, etc. I was actually confused at first and thought this is a new state of shock Darrow was experiencing where he was thinking so much that he could not get any actual thoughts constructed in his narration. The twist was then suspected in my perspective, after noticing this, and realizing he is still able to respond to Cassius, Aja, and the boneriders' taunts. That isn't shock, that is acting. So i was like 70% sure this was an act and it was confirmed when it was revealed of course.
32:50 i don’t think that’s what happened though. golden son ended with roque and thistle betraying him, but also with victra proving her loyalty. when darrow first gets to tinos in morning star, he learns that clown, pebble and screwface also stuck by him. it’s more complex than just the betrayal. i think the fact that darrow feels way less untouchable was a great choice
I think Austin will appreciate the next books more as his biggest problem was Darrows lack of flaws and development in this third installment. I have also already read Lightbringer because in Germany we get the book sooner than the official release date for some reason.
Austin, you are NOT ALONE! I felt the exact same about this book and couldn’t exactly voice why that was until I listened to this. Your thoughts and feelings were mine exactly!
I felt the opposite about Darrow coming out of imprisonment. Him turning into Darth Vader wouldve been silly. The fact that he flip flops on trusting people makes more sense for a damaged person like Darrow.
I'm kind of with you, Austin. I loved Golden Son and the twist thing with Sevro didn't sit super well with me on a first read. I don't think I viewed it that much lower than Golden Son though. Haha
@@2ToRamble oh definitely. Every book was better on a re-read for me. I still like Golden Son more though. Haha I can't really decide if I liked Golden Son or Iron Gold more... Dark Age is amazing too, but... So heavy.
Couldn't disagree more. This is a solid book. Character development was consistent. Darrow need to get back to go forward. It's not about action, but growth. Many books failed to overthrown a corrupt system without a solution. Morning show excel at that. Emotional impact was BRUTAL. so many devastating scenes. Darrow trauma, sevro's insecurities, sevro's self sacrifice, Ragnar, Cassius knowing the truth. Cassius and Darrow once again friends. Telemanus on board. Mustang support. GANYMEDE DOCKS. OMG. OMG. The final stroke with Octavia, jackal. The Augustus brothers final interaction. Oh and the very end? It was perfection. Nothing less
We might not have focused on it as much as we should’ve but Sevro’s insecurities was definitely a highlight for both of us, and Ganymede docks ofc. Was this your favorite book of the series?
I just gobbled up all five books, loved them, and it was five stars across the board, lol! I do appreciate more technical & deep dive reviews though, as my brain doesn't work that way.
29:95 I mean there was just no rage left in him after 12 month of the box. He was a broken hust at that time. It would be bad writing for Darrow just to be back to as wrathful as usual after that long time of torture.
Every week at 2toRamble… Austin (holding a gun): Richard, which book should we review in our next Podcast Episode, Stormlight or Red Rising? … (There is no other way to explain that we still have just 1 Wheel of Time and 1 Discworld Episode)
You guys finding a cringe line in a random page in the book was cracking me up. Definitely loved Morning Star and looking forward to discussion about the other books.
So, I have just finished Morning Star last night. I binged read all 3 books in less than a week. I had to go to sleep after finishing it because i had a major test today that i have not prepared enough because of all the reading. As I was getting ready today I was listening to you guys, I just randomly found the channel. I think Austin was able to put into words exactly what I was feeling. I’m terrible with words, this is probably the first comment I leave in a youtube video (and this is coming from someone who watches it daily), but I just have all this feelings that i’m feeling. I dont think Red Rising would get a 9.7 out of me. I definitely don’t have a score system but i almost dnf’d the book before Darrow got in the Institute (I had the book for years and I had a feeling I was going to enjoy it so i tend to postpone it, but then when I eventually got to it I was’t feeling it at all). Afterwards though, it paid off. I’d give it an 8.75 overall, just because I had to power through the first third or so, even though I think the other 65ish percent where perfect. Golden Son is a 10/10. Again, the feelings I was feeling. I immediately put the whole trilogy in one of my all time favorites, even though I had not read the third book. I know some things just felt like they worked out a bit too easily in the first two books but it was believable for me. And then comes Morning Star. I still think its a fair ending for the trilogy. One of the best series I read. Definitely the one I love the most in recent times. But it just felt odd. I think you said everything. I could not even begin to express myself accordingly. But things were working out too perfectly at the end. What if the Jackel had shot Sevro again, just for the fun of it? I mean, come on! And Mustang! I needed more! I’m glad for the happy ending of sorts, i dont think my heart could take it any other way, but i was expecting something else. I think specially because I read all 3 back to back, it just felt bland compared to all the rest. Maybe I should have giving some time. I’ll wait a bit to read the rest. Guess i’m done, just had to pour my heart out. Now i’ll binge watch the podcasts and look for a recommendation on the next book i’m reading, maybe find a 10 favorites list? If anyone read all of this, please send some recommendations!
Very much on the same page as you, glad we were able to help say some of the things rhat were on your mind! For book recs - we always do a spoiler-free version for every review we put out though wendont have a top 10 list - I (austin) would try recommending something based on Red rising, but honestly I havent found anything that scratches that same itch yet. Im still ok the hunt! (Reading The Will of the Many right now which I heard scratches that itch)
Wow, what a fun and interesting discussion. I must interject on the Darrow's character thing, and also on the redemption. (agree on Mustang though). First it really fits Darrows guilt towards Roque for not confiding in him and sedating him that he would for a large part blame himself for the betrayal. I think that from the start of the series we see that Darrow learns quickly to direct his anger towards specific persons or goals that embody gold supremacy, rather than any gold or any person that irks him. And then with Kavax there really I experienced no inconsistency. Knowing and deciding you need to confide in people more, does not mean it is easy at the moment. I'm sure we all have points in our lives where we theoretically decided beforehand what we were gonna do and then were very queezy when the moment came. And yes, there could have been more trauma, but it would not necessarily have to be rage or trust issues with friends or allies. Based on this I have to disagree that Darrow has been only rage for the first two books and I feel that his development here was fine. Although I can also agree that it would have been fine for him to come out rageful and learn the lesson later like you suggested. Second, I am not sure whether Pierce Brown thinks that Tactus or others are redeemable. Darrow does. And I think this is an very awesome way for an author to make us question for ourselves "when are people redeemable and when aren't they". It is clear where Austins line lies, based on the discussion, but I myself am not entirely sure. In the case of Tactus we know what his upbringing was, that his brothers were horrible violent and abusive monsters even for gold standards. Is it so strange that he has not developed the right morals and boundaries?
Woah. Love the input on Darrow vs Pierce Brown’s thoughts on redeemption and your view of Darrow’s arc! We do disagree, but this comment made me do some thinkin. I don’t like thinking. Dont ever comment again 😂
He's really missing the point of Darrow's character. Darrow same in the darkness that even though he was betrayed you had to become the bigger, better person. If he would have just gone into a fit of rage we'd just be right back where they started, he had to break the cycle of revenge the golds used on each other, he had to bring in a new order of forgiveness to truly learn real strength.
In a series filled with wonderful, rich and engaging characters, Mustang stands out as being the least interesting. As is often the case with the love interest (A flaw I find often in young adult books), we aren't shown why she is worthy of the protagonist's attention, but are simply expected to like her because he does. With the exception of that first time that she saved his life in Red Rising, I have never seen any qualities other than her beauty that make her desirable to Darrow. She isn't as loyal as Sevro, Ragnar... nor even Victra. She hasn't ever been responsible for any victories. Her morals are still firmly placed in society values until the last moment (and even then what choice did she have after she has already burnt her bridges with the opposition). She isn't even as reliable in her support as a friend as the rest of the cast, as she always has her own agenda. So being as she is neither loyal, helpful to the cause, morally strong in character or a good friend, why the hell should she get to constantly be in charge of armies, be given the benefit of the doubt time and again, and worst of all, get to act as though Darrow must prove himself to her rather than the other way around. To make all this worse, this series ends with her being crowned as the new ruler. Why? What has she possibly done or shown over the course of the previous 3 novels that has proved that she is leadership material? She hasn't even proved to be competent in most cases. So then we get to the final reveal that she has been testing Darrow through this book to see if he is worthy to learn that he has a son. Not only that, when she does reveal it, it is by having their friends and Darrow's family present the boy to him, making it clear that she told literally every other person in this novel before she told Darrow. What the hell had Darrow ever done to make that the right choice? I know the author wants us to believe that she was afraid that he was a warmonger, but at no point in the entire series are any of the characters ever left unclear as to why he has acted as he has. It has all been for a better life for his people. At no point does she express any sympathy or regret for what Darrow has had to go through. She doesn't apologise that her family was responsible for the suffering of his people or the death of his wife and unborn child, other than to ask him why he doesn't hate her for it at the end of the last book while she was holding a gun to his head. She never says that she is sorry for entering into a loving relationship with Cassius, a man who was actively seeking Darrow's death, other than for the fact that the relationship ended up hurting her, not caring how it probably hurt Darrow. She never once shows sympathy or asks him about the fact that he spent a year of his life going through unspeakable torture. She never once shows regret for the way that she acted when he risked everything, including the freedom of his people, to tell her the truth of his life. Even Victra showed more moral character, telling Darrow how she would never have judged him for being a Red.
Idk, man. I am a big mustang fan from the second book, I thought they had some really good dialog. But the third was really lacking, 1000 questions between them and nothing was said. I disagree with you that she is just there to be darrow's love interest. I think she is a strong character in that she gets shit done and most of her schemes work out. Pretty badass at times. I think what is missing is that she never has the motivation of other characters to join the cause. It's always the step she takes after it's glaringly obvious that it will benefit her the most. Very situational and always done as a my back is against the wall kinda thing. Sure her values are what puts her back to the wall but she never does anything until push comes to shove.
I totally understand Austins rating and reasoning. Firstly what I liked was the fighting scenes and all of Darrows speeches. What really was amazing of course was the torture scene and the incredible dynamic between Sevro and Darrow. The main thing for me that greatly bothered me was the final twist. It just felt a bit too obvious to me what was gonna happen, which kinda ruined that section for me when it did exactly as I thought. The saving grace was the jackals final plan and the resolve of his character, which I found awesome. Also the Mustang/Darrow dynamic dropped a bit for me. Lastly though the (which isn't really a ptoblem as I havent read the new saga yet) is that I went into the book expectimg a certain final end. That resolve was strengthened when I realised that the book was about rebuilding not destroying, yet a lot was destroyed and I only see glimpses of reconstruction in the end.
You should have brought up how the author used the "everything is going wrong, gotcha! It was all in the plan" two times, back to back in the same book. I listened to it on audiobook which might have made it worse, since the reader acted it out very earnestly. It was worst the second time, since I figured out the twist, but Darrow was wailling in his own head about how bad things where going.
No worries, I’m in your camp! I loved the second book but I was also disappointed in the third. I think the third was just to over the top. After two books of backstabbing and treachery….I was no longer really surprised.
Great video! I gave red rising 9.1, golden son 10, and morning star 8.5 using your rating system! The plot is where a bunch of my points fell in morning star and I did not like Darrow as much in it either.
Very curious of your thoughts on the sequel series too - Morning Star wasnt too low for you, glad it ended fairly well overall besides those plot issues!
I think we read different books. I loved morning star and it was my top book in the series until I read dark age. The roque death scene and the Romulus-roque-Darrow politics was amazing! And the final plot twist with the dockyards was a total suprise. I think one of you (we know who) has sky high expectations and would not have like morning star regardless of how good it was.. but still a fan😅
The twist at the end was great, although I could see why you put the pieces together right away. You weren't emotionally invested anymore. With less enthusiasm about the direction the book is going, it allows your analytical side to take over entirely instead of what most people experienced was the shock and sorrow of Sevro dying. We were too busy being so upset and destroyed about that whole scene, along with Cassius's betrayal, that it was difficult to think about the one paragraph that hinted at this talking about mustangs plan like 3 chapters ago. To us, it felt like that was her plan falling apart, not that it was THE plan. I for one, figured it out differently. I still wasn't fully sure if it was part of the plan, so it was confirmed for me when Cassius started killing the knights and the plan was revealed. However, I started noticing how vastly different Darrow was internally narrating his grief for Sevro. For Roque, Ragnar, Tactus, and all his other good friends who have died, he put a ton of emphasis in his internal narration about the dread he feels thinking of their deaths. However, for Sevro, he barely thought about his grief, if at all. It was very inconsistent for his character. At first I thought that maybe he is experiencing a new state of shock that we have not seen from him thus far, but that thought was dismantled when he started replying to Cassius and Aja. Thats not shock, shock would be complete involuntary silence. He was entertaining their taunts and displays of power. Once I noticed this, I started thinking about the possibility of this being part of the plan, and perhaps Cassius actually is willing to work with them to dismantle the society and this was just an act. Then I started thinking why would Sevro dying be part of this plan? There is no way Darrow would allow Sevro to die as part of the plan. Then of course! Darrow once died too, back in Red Rising. Poetic for the same eyes (As Sevro has Darrow's red eyes) to experience the same state of false death by the same methods. Then wondering how Cassius even got in on this plan to begin with, and I remembered all about mustang's plan, and how shortly after she met with Cassius and they talked "off-screen". Darrow only references it once by asking her "Did you finally talk to him?" we just don't know who he was referring to. Anyways to sum it up, I thought the twist was done fantastically. I don't think it was as obvious as you think it is, though I definitely agree with you, there were WAY too many things that could have gone wrong for this plan to have worked. It was waaay too risky, and did not make sense for Mustang of all people to make. She cares deeply of her friends, in a way where she would not put them in such danger unless she was certain of the outcome. She is unlike Darrow in this sense, where he is fully willing to go through with any plan as dangerous as it may be, even if he had a slim chance at victory.. regardless of who is put in death's way. So there are definitely flaws to this twist, and how it was handled.
I loved the first 2 books and thought Morning star was good but not as good. I'd rate them as a 9,9,7 in order. I agree that we needed to explore Darrow and Victra's recovery from the torture more but not towards darkness like Austin was saying. I feel like everyone has blown over the opening of the first book and what Darrow loved the most about his people was that they found happiness even through all their hardship. He may be hot headed but he never stared an angry person. He wanted to sing and dance and have a family and that was the most basic and pure part of him from the start. The rage throughout the series is almost more of a coping mechanism to keep himself on track and motivated. Its often something he has to turn on. I think from that, the message of the books shift in the 3rd from the angry 'break the chains' movement to Ragnar's final words of 'live for more'. Darrow comes out of torture and years and being alone to his family and friends and this whole book he can embrace his old self a little more and be less ragefull. Mustang and Darrows interactions annoyed me though. Golden sun may have ended with them in a difficult position but they still loved each other and when they finally met again after a year of torture and thinking Darrow was killed.... That should have been a much more fleshed out moment and while not falling into each other, they should have embraced each other more. Especially from Mustang knowing they have a kid together. Finally, my last point is i was really disappointed in the story arc of her not telling him he had a child. Firstly that wasn't her decision to make and secondly it resonated too much of Eo not telling him and making decisions without him. Throughout the rest of the books Mustang always showed him more trust and was always open with him... For me it just left what was supposed to be a high note with a real sour taste.
29:56 I think that Darrow was more rational and not driven by rage also because he sees Sevro being driven by it at the beginning and only causing destruction. So to me it made sense that he didn’t choose to seek revenge but tried to find a way to build something better. Anyway I agree with Austen about Roque. I can understand Darrow still caring for him in some way (also given the fact that he feels responsible for losing him) but not his justifying his actions. (Sorry for my English, it is not my first language)
I understand the point of where the plot could’ve gone with Darrow learning more lessons. But as someone who liked Golden Son the least… I loved Morning Star. We needed a grand scheme reason, not rage, not a psycho, not a sword without purpose. His friends and family needed to be developed to create a why for when this is all over. & as a reader, I needed less intensity and relationship building. The only thing I would change is that Ragnar died 💔
Listening to your review because im getting ready to drop Morning star with 8 hours left to listen to. I liked the first two books even though I almost dropped the series at the beginning of the first book.
Austin, know that you are not alone and that I completely agree with you. I’ve been reading the books alongside this podcast, and it’s okay to call Morning Star what it is, and that’s disappointing. Not bad! Just not what we know it could have been. I knew 1/4 into the book that I wasn’t going to get the Darrow arc I was hoping for, and 2/3 into the book I knew I wasn’t going to get the overall trilogy arc I wanted either. It just felt like a rushed effort by Brown, which was confirmed, to me, by his acknowledgment section when he mentioned that he struggled writing the book past the first few chapters….only to still have it finished, edited, and published a year after Golden Son. I just wish he had spent more time crafting character choices and plot. Without spoiling anything, I agree with all of your critiques and want to add that I felt like The Jackal was massively underutilized which really felt like a waste of potential. That all being said, I’m still excited to read Iron Gold and continue along with you both! Also, I hate to admit it but Richard is right that the writing, especially in Red Rising, is pretty corny and cheesy at times but ya know what, bring on the cheesy prose because it gets me fired up!!
Well hey there we go - I dont feel so alone! I’ll still defend his prose, but you and Rich aren’t alone in that critique either, maybe I’m just a simpleton. (Ok im definitely a simpleton) Cheers though - seems like we both had a very similar picture of Darrows character and how he would respond going into book 3!
I would push back a little on the hierarchy comments at the end since the whole color system was so ingrained in the society. I felt that asking a specific color to do something other than what they were Specifically bred and trained their whole life for would be weird. It would be like asking a slave who was born and bred to be a farmer to then want to be an “artist”. They don’t even know what that means. Their whole life and existence is that one specific job. Literally nothing else is an option. To me it was clear that the only people in the whole society that had options were the Golds. Everyone else was bred to do one job and one job only. That’s why it was so powerful to have specific people slightly grow to be a little more than what they were “made” for like Ragnar and Orion.
Just finished last night, loved it, was so nervous with the sevro storyline at first, thought it was gonna be a roque part 2, that scene where they “hashed it out” I actually cheered out loud
Gotta do iron gold soon. Darrow and the other character have some incredible arcs in the sequel trilogy. Also expanding to more POV character really opens up the world.
I'm in the same boat as Austin. Loved the first 2 books and Morning Star was just ok. It was good but just seemed to perfect of an ending. Still going to continue the series.
How would they guess that my people would come not from the sky, but from the heart of our planet And I push myself off the ledge with both legs, flinging myself backwards into open air I literally jumped out of my seat. Mind blown. Excited. Saying aloud, how can he write this creatively and emotion exploding????
Oh Austin is gonna dig each successive sun eater book. just listening to his critiques on Darro… Hadrian Marlowe constantly changes book to book… ages exponentially through each and wears his scars differently each time
Just finished Morning Star last night and loved hearing your thoughts on it... what an amazing trilogy. It's probably my third favorite now behind The Night Angel trilogy and Mistborn trilogy. Would love to hear your thoughts on Night Angel; it's incredible. I see some Brent Weeks books on the shelf so you are already familiar with the author.
As an anonymous published writer, I know the issue here. The reason why so many fans are mixed on Morning Star is that it simultaneously has the Awesomeness of Pierce's prose and the Red Rising World while 1) also not delivering on the proper progress of the story towards the ultimate goal. 2) And the Promise at the end wasn't fulfilled in the tonal way that the red rising story has been told up to that point. Let me explain. SPOILER WARNING 1) The way they transitioned to the Obsidian World was abrupt, seemed unnatural, and spent way too much time there. 2) And the fact that Darrow was basically emasculated by Aja and wasn't really the one to beat her in the end when throughout the whole story up to that point, even if Darrow lost, he always PERSONALLY overcame the challenge EVENTUALLY. They needed an entire team just to beat her. It stripped some of the shine off the Reaper. These, in my opinion, are the two biggest reasons.
I loved all three books but I would rate Golden Sun , Morning Star then Red Rising. I will definitely read them again in a few years… thanks for the videos guys keep up the good work
I feel so validated. I LOVED Red Rising and Golden Son was incredible, Morning Star? I had to skip a few chapters to finish 😅 it just wasn’t my favorite of the three
It has taken me an embarrassing about of time to finish this book but its my first sci-fi so give me some grace 😅 The beginning chapters were good and I liked certain character quotes and found family moments but gosh... it felt slow at times. I'm in the same camp where we stayed in certain places too long and my interest was lost at points. I think compared to the other two books, we had a lot less intense "life or death" moments. Darrow always had a way out and I didn't get anxious excitement like in the first two. However, the twists got me at the end. My emotions for the last 100-200 pages were all over the place. I enjoyed the 4 on 1 scene, very reminisce of Red Rising vibes and the classic "friendship always wins" trope but not sure how I feel about the epilogue. I also wanted an ending where it didn't end super perfect, where there would still be flaws or an ending that could be taken different ways. But I'm glad to have closure and look forward to seeing where the story continues at some point 😊 Still an awesome trilogy that I'll be thinking about for a long time!
Great thoughts - you may like it slightly more than me (Austin) but I definitely agree this book didn’t ruin the trilogy for me and I will think back on it likewise for a long time!
@@summeroftheseasons1568 The first 2 books haven't been topped for me, though I haven't read Lightbringer yet and have heard unbelievable things - so very much looking forward to that. Dark Age was also great!
As someone with trust issues, I can tell you, the two quotes you pulled to talk about does he have trust issues does he not, perfectly show what trust issues actually are.
Just finished the book and I do have 2 points I am wondering about. First ..... What happened to the robots thing??? ..... He kept building up how robots are scary and forbidden and how Nero was very scared of them ..... Then when we actually saw one it almost killed the howlers ..... And Darrow later was consirned that someone is now making robots ........ After that it is never mentioned again 😐😐 .... Is it so or did I miss something Next one has spoilers ... Second .... When Sevro "died" ..... Darrow kept refering to him as "Dead" ..... He kept saying "Sevro's dead body" ....... But he knew it is a lie ..... He knew Sevro is alive ..... Why would he say that to himself, in his own head ...... It's not like he knows we are on his shoulders that he needs to lie to us ...... I get why the author did it but it does not make any sense ..... Darrow did hide information from us before sure ..... But not exactly like here where he basically lied to us ..... to himself?? .... in his own head 😐😂
I had a problem with that at first. Now, my head canon is that he was thinking about Sevros being actually dead to help himself act better. I'm a good liar because I convince myself temporarily that the lie is true in my head. Maybe Darrow was doing the same. When he described the smell of the box they were in as only sweaty and not sweaty and bloody, that's when I took the hint.
Just finished this book. I agree with Austin on this one. It's my least favourite of the trilogy, mainly because the fake out death and final plan were disappointing. I'd give Red Rising a 7, Golden Son an 8 and Morning Star a 6. Overall it's a fun, inoffensive trilogy. Not much character depth but a likeable cast , interesting world and some fun action. I think I'll move on from this series tho, not really interested in the next trilogy (at least for now). On to the Sun Eater series!
I do think that Morning Star is not as good as Golden Son. But I still think it’s a good trilogy ender. My thing is it’s less of “my kind of book.” I like the kind of story that Golden Son is over this. I compare MS to Return of the Jedi(though I think it’s better than ROTJ).
That being said, recently re-read the two sequels, and I love what they do, they are very different, we aren’t getting the same old thing (biggest pet peeve of all sequels). Curious to see if you guys like them, as diehard OG trilogy fans tend to like them less.
I liked Morningstar. My only tiny issue is that I wish we would’ve seen Mustang react more to her Father’s death and the reveal that the Jackal was behind their brothers death
Morning Star was not as good as the others. There were a few plot issues that made the story not as tight as the prior two. It’s not a bad book - but it’s not on the same level as the previous instalments.
I think you both may have forgotten or maybe missed the reason why all the colors are more or so the same people in their respective color. The golds literally force them to be this way. They force implants on the pinks at a young age that cause horrible internal pain to force great pleasure upon themselves only when they are pleasuring a gold. They force blues at a young age to connect their nervous system to a computer chipset or some shit like that, making them all connected much like bluetooth connections and their only path in life is learning proficiency in computer arts, especially naval war ships. etc. etc. there is a reason why they are all the same, and this problem takes generations to resolve. They are also human, but forced to be the same.
Regarding the 'hail reaper' moment discussed late 40-ish minutes... I feel they resolved this issue during the hanging scene where obviously the rising was going in a direction of hatred, revenge, a replacement hierarchy and new tyranny, although this was addressed quickly due to the short length of that rebellion by the obsidians, I feel it was addressed therefore for the end of the book to go back to that would feel wrong...
Ragnar’s death scene got me in the feels. I agree that, while great, this book didn’t have the action of its two predecessors. It was far more of an emotional ride.
I think it can be true and usually is in real life… that you can both feel or know that you need to act one way (trust others or say eat healthier) and then still have a hard time actually doing that thing. I think the bombing of the docks is an example of how his character has grown and shows he learned he can’t always trust others. Sorry you didn’t like book 3 as much :(. All three books were better for me on re read (highly recommend the audiobooks too)
Only to the Characters discussion so far, but I feel that since Darrow is so conflicted about trust, is in fact proving that he does actually have trust issues. People on complicated and they arent always consistent with their own world views in general, why wouldnt Darrow be the same as he experiencing one traumatic event after another?
I liked Golden Son, too and agree with Richard that the first one was the weakest. I think Austin was hopeful things were going to turn mega dark ... in which case, apparently the latter quartet may satisfy. I've heard they're very dark which is why I've held off on reading them haha :D I really liked the ending of this book/ trilogy, too and the only thing that stuck out in my head as a major gripe was that the use of first person made it really hard to sell the 'twist' at the end when we're supposed to think that certain things have gone down with Cassius, Sevro et al .. Even if you say Darrow is an unreliable narrator, it doesn't quite work because how does he get 'surprised' by a plan he knows about and so we can only assume that he's deliberately going light in detail at that point because he's recounting the tale to someone else other than the reader ...
I want to add this comment to any red rising videos !! If you are having a difficult time , PLEASEEEEE! Do yourself a favor and listen the audio drama adaption 😍 the voices for every character, the sound affects the music !!! It brings this story alive so much !! Making morning star #1! Just had to share
I really enjoyed the first half. I thought the pacing took a massive hit in the middle, and the betrayal/death fake out near the end was cheap and unsatisfying. I’m also a bit done with Darrow’s “we’re in an inescapable predicament… BUT I foresaw this and will now reveal that I planned a way out earlier”, a problem with first person narrative perhaps but I think a better writer could overcome it. I also felt that after two books of avoiding saying fuck with some new in-universe substitutes, characters suddenly using the word felt jarring.
The beginning of the book was really good. I loved the scenes and writing of the first few chapters, especially Darrow in the Jackal's torture box. But throughout the series I could never get behind the prose. It isn't even the present tense, though that is part of it, but its the choppy sentences that don't flow together. It's so hard to read for me. What did it for me though was Virginia. I think she is just a nonsense character and a total ass to Darrow. I had to put the book down when she came on the scene talking about trust 😅 Love your discussion though
I finished Morningstar last night. It took me about 2 and a half months to get through it. I really didn’t like the first part of this book. I disliked just about everywhere it was going . Until About the halfway point. Once I got to the halfway point everything flipped itself and it completely started to work for me . I really enjoyed it and loved the ending a lot.
Also ..... Sophocles is just perfect 😍😂 ..... If anything happens to him in later books I will organise an iron rain against the author 🤣 You know what ..... Sophocles for sovereign .... He has my vote 😂
I did have a lot of the same problems with Austin on Morning Star, but I don't think it was bad. It didn't live up to Golden Son, but it was still good, just a bit better than Red Rising.
Just now finishing Morning Star... Red rising- the first 100 pages are great, then the rest is some of the worst stuff ive read. Not trying to be mean but I truly didnt like it. Golden Sun (everyone says this book is amazing)....i thought it was just okay. Morning Star....this book is awesome. Darrow being humbled in the very beginning fit very. The Haemanthus Oil twist was a great call back to the first book while doing a trope that is usually (by usually i mean almost always) done terribly (fake out death), but its done really well due to that! Idk man. At the end of book 2 i thought i wouldnt continue with the series but after finishing morning star im going for the others too. 4/5 rating because i still hate its first person and think PB should have done it in 3rd person
I (austin) finished book 4 and am halfway through Dark Age - we will be uploading those but not back to back as we want some videos that people who havent read the series can also view on the channel, but they will come!
Im in the camp of living the second and third but still loved the first. I love all the sequel trilogy though. Only questionable story choice was the abomination in 6 books. So if Pierce can make abomination work he will have a perfect story record for me.
Just finished the book probably about 3 mins ago and I disagree with the fact that the jackal had his most memorable moment in book 1 (the hand scene). But also I feel like that scene was also not nearly as impressive as I have seen on line, which I guess helps me feel the build up to the end of book three rather then be disappointed? I just wanna see if I’m not alone because he is by far my favorite villain I have ever read (haven’t read a lot though lol)
I can see why Austin would be disappointed in this book because it’s not as action packed and there are quieter moments. However, I disagree with his thoughts on Darrow as a character. I think Darrow got humbled and I think that he does fight with himself alot of the time in this book. Is he making the right choices? Is he being a good friend and trusting when he should? I mean one thing that he battles with this whole book is trust! And he looks at it from different angles. Can he trust Servo like he trusted Darrow? Can he trust Mustang to give up everything for him when he took everything from her. Can he try to win Reque back after the betray and can they rebuild that friendship? Can he trust Cassius as all?? Things like that and it’s done well because the ending leads up to trust and it plays with the reader. I do agree that Darrow bounced back fast and that could have been handled a bit better, but it’s not like the through line isn’t there. I personally really enjoyed this book and thought that it was satisfying of an ending. I like how we are able to see the people around Darrow more that he takes other actions other then just being a “sword.” He tries to take a peaceful path with Ragnar and that costs him. He makes choices he knows will haunt him but he has to create peace. Thought the podcast was very informative and got me to think more on the book.
With a year with only your thoughts to keep you company, you go through all the motions of exceptance. You have plenty of time to work past anger and understand the wrongs of your own actions. I think you my friend need to work past the anger in your own life so you can except the growth in Darrow.
Hey now don’t make me learn something from this 😂😂. Guess I didn’t see Darrow as the kind of character that would come out of the torture feeling that way, but fair point you made nonetheless!
Giving red rising a 9.7 and morning star a 6 makes me feel like I’m living in the upside down haha. I’m not sure we read the same books
😆. I will say there’s a certain charm to book 1’s that I always give huge credit to. Introducing the reader to new worlds, characters, and making you care. I still look back at book 1’s as some of my favorite stories (Fellowship, Way of Kings, etc) and even though I love their series as a whole, book ones just hit different. But im also a strange mind and get that people love Morning Star a lot more than me. Regardless great trilogy overall - Golden Son blew me away
@@2ToRamble i can’t wait for y’all to do iron gold and dark age, I love this channel and the dynamic between the two of you. Also for reference I have red rising: 7.9 golden son: 8.95 and morning star: 8.4
@@squeezy951 very fair ratings !
Maybe someone accidentally read the trilogy out of order and didn't realize it.
I think Austin's biggest problem with the book is that he fell in love with Darrow Au Andromedus and not Darrow O' Lykos. I fully believe that Darrow would be all wraith, hated, napalm, and viengar if the Jackal had really killed his family. But Darrow waking up and being surrounded by his family made the difference. I would fully agree with other plot issues stated if it had been the end to the story. But it wasn't! Thank Jove
Great thoughts - definitely explains part of me not being in love with the story. And yea cant wait to read on 🤌
Has this same thought on watching their review.
The Ragnar scene destroyed me. I broke down ugly crying for like an hour. With Sevro I was dreading his death the whole time and I was still shocked but I kept on hoping they would save him somehow 😅
You may call me a classless philistine for this, but I thought the "Bye Felicia" moment was hilarious.
I snorted so hard at that it was hysterical
I rolled my eyes at how cringeworthy it was, took me right out of the moment
I’m also in the rolled-my-eyes camp
The absurdity of reading that line nearly made me put the book down and never pick it up again😭luckily I did
What page was this?
Darrow’s rage, brashness and trust or the lack there of you seem to believe there should be is constantly being trumped by the love he feels for those around them all through the series. A lot of what you feel like Darrow should be dies when he finally, let’s Sevro in, sees Dancer, realizes Fitchner is Ares, sees his mom back in Lykos, and is no longer alone in his quest. So him spending the time in the dark coming out knowing he should share the weight feels reasonable, especially when he sees his family safe in Tinos. I feel like that’s an important shift in his character that wasn’t mentioned.
I do still appreciate having the spoilers free section even if it’s only 7min. Once I read the series I will have a lot to watch at least.
Richard, you get the nod of approval for consistency.
Austin, I have some words for you, my friend.
If you don't want to read the essay that follows you can sum it all up succinctly as "You're an enigma and you must've lost your marbles somewhere between Golden Son and Morning Star."
I want to address some of your complaints with Morning Star. I'll preemptively admit that some of them, while I don't agree, are just a simple case of differing views of the series. All good. Obvious heads up for Spoilers in my comment since I will be referencing the first three books.
I'll start off with your issues regarding Darrow. I guess I haven't noticed this key difference up until this point, but it seems that the biggest character trait you associate with Darrow is rage, and that is just not the case. Yes, he is rageful, and has his moments of primal anger, but by and large that is not representative of who he is and has been for the entire series up to this point. Darrow, more than anything is about friendships and guidance. That is what makes him who he is beyond anything else. That is what he cares about, his friends, his men, his family. Richard mentioned this regarding his "trust issues" and how that plays into him not opening up to people and feeling responsible for the betrayals of Roque and Tactus. Beyond that, if Darrow was as rageful as you think he is, I believe he would've been far more ruthless leading up to Morning Star. Instead of being beaten at the institute for his men's crimes he would've just slaughtered or punished them. In another instance, the Gala maneuver from him wouldn't have gone off as smoothly as it did since he would've been more focused on rage and carnage than his comrades. There is a plethora of instances where Darrow chooses personal relationships and the guidance over rage. Rage really has always been something he channels during battle, never something he will let guide his choices elsewhere. The Darrow that I see would never take any pleasure in bombing the docks at Ganymede. Something of that level would be reserved for the likes of the Jackal or more morally questionable characters. I know you said that would make Darrow more interesting, but I don't see it. Realizing the lens, you viewed Darrow with now, I understand where you are coming from.
My last note on Darrow would be the notion of his character arc completing early in this book. While it makes sense, given the notion of Darrow you see, I don't believe his arc concludes early in this book, or in this book at all. The aspect you covered with his trust issues may be resolved fast, but other issues surrounding his character like PTSD don't just go away. Also, the Mustang connection with him becoming a builder not just a destroyer is not entirely resolved till the near end of the book. Brown didn't intend for his arc to end this book either since he made the choice to continue the series in the midst of writing Morning Star. OK enough of Darrow.
Victra being alive, did not bother me, but I think your angle on her is valid. Her moment at the end of Golden Son was very impactful. Also, she is the one to say "Bye Felica". Didn't really strike me as anything off since that was a relevant joke at the time of release and clearly meant in a comedy and off handed way. Nothing to dwell on for me.
On the plot side of things, I know you mentioned not being at the most exciting moment at all times being a detriment of sorts. I will say, Morning Star takes a step back in a sense compared to the first two. Darrow has time to reset after his escape and recover what was lost physically and mentally. I think this is a massive bonus that we have those quieter and more slowburn moments in this book. Again, I understand how this can be a bummer if you wanted more of the format that was given in the first two installments.
The last thing I will harp on is the prose complaints. I cannot wrap my head around thinking that the prose is the worst in the series so far. I understand your issues with some "movie references" being too much in some ways, but outside of that, this is the best book at this point in the series where prose is concerned. I know you kind of admitted to this, but it seems to me that you had a few problems with the characters/plot that bugged you to the point of it bleeding over into other categories that don't really involve the issues at hand.
Side note: I know you're reading Dark Age currently, but I think when you are completely caught up, some of the issues you have with where you wanted the series to go in Morning Star may be resolved. There are four more books of greatness ahead of this point.
Despite not agreeing with Austin's opinions on this book, props for being straight up about your gripes. For that, you aren't a pixie as far as I'm concerned.
Finally, we are at the end of the road. The end of my longwinded jackass response that I spent more time than I should have on. Love the video even though some takes drove me up a wall. Keep rolling lads. Congrats on 10k, and I'll see you in the next video. Cheers my goodman.
couldnt agree more (i stopped reading after "Richard")
Not sure if you guys read comments from old videos, but I just finished Morning Star last night. It was my favorite of the trilogy, but I also feel like it has more flaws than Golden Son. Morning Star felt like I was reading contrivance after contrivance after contrivance (Darrow being saved as soon as the book opens and with very little hassle, Darrow having time to go save Victra at the beginning, and her being alive at all for that matter after such a powerful death scene in Golden Son, Antonia being locked directly next to Thistle with bars she can conveniently reach through, a handful of things in the ending sequence) but for some reason it didn't bother me. To me, I guess I don't really expect Red Rising to be this awe-inspiringly tightly-written masterpiece of storytelling. It's a badass, fast-paced, dark, thrilling, melo-dramatic, insane space opera where you read for super emotional highs and gut-wrenching twists. Like if you go back and look at the OG Star Wars trilogy I'm sure there's a bunch of silly contrived shit, but like who the fuck cares. It's awesome.
My absolute least favorite part of this book is this one paragraph passage where Antonia keeps telling Darrow it's "not his fault" as she breaks him down until he's crying in her arms. This scene is IDENTICAL to a very powerful scene in Good Will Hunting. It works perfectly for that movie for reasons I won't get into, but in this book it felt emotionally manipulative and a bit lazy. I have to assume it's a reference to that movie. The scene is effectively identical. There were some other emotionally manipulative moments, like Sevro's death most notably. Also the Jackal and Sovereign were absolute cartoon villains in my opinion, especially Jackal. I could not take him seriously. I agree with Richard that that hand-cutting scene in the first book was pretty much the apex of his character. I thought he would be may more interesting. Now he's like opening his arms out to Darrow and Mustang like "well well well what do we have here" lol.
This is by far my favorite portrayal of Darrow. I found him a bit too melodramatic in the first two, which wasn't that big of a deal because it works for the story. But I basically didn't expect Pierce Brown to take this angle with his character, and I loved it. He feels so much more mature. I loved how it was about the other characters. Sevro, Mustang, Cassius, and Ragnar all get so many memorable moments in this book. As a reader I respond to complex and fleshed-out characters more than anything, so this book really just hit all of my personal emotional buttons. I teared up when Sevro is like "Dude your family is with me. You really think I'd let the Jackal have them?" Like he's just so unconditionally loyal man. I also just want to say Pierce Brown has so many moments of truly beautiful prose. I seriously cannot fathom just how much he improves from book 1 to books 2 and 3. It's like night and day.
Austin, like other people have said, I think you hurt your own experience by setting your expectations too high. You loved Golden Son cause it's an awesome book, but I wonder how much of your enjoyment and rating came from what you HADN'T read yet. I feel like it's a trap we all can fall into when we find a series we really love. I'm reading some other stuff before continuing on, but hopefully I'll have Dark Age and Light Bringer read by the time your reviews come out. I buddy-read this series, and he finished all 6 books in like two weeks lol. So I have some catching up to do. Cheers :D
Just to add to your comment about one of the scenes being identical to one in Good Will Hunting- I’ve noticed that Mr Brown rips off a few things from popular movies/books/culture. The one that sticks out to me the most is that his character Pliny from GS seemed to take a lot of ‘inspiration’ from the character Varys or ‘the spider’ from the A Song of Ice and Fire series. Like a less complex version. There were a few others well but that was the most obvious example to me.
Basically what I’m getting out of Austin’s morning star and light bringer ratings is he doesn’t like when Darrow actually develops and isn’t just a a rageful menace😭
Lol fair! I think I expected a darker turn, or more of a Dune-esque “you have become what you sought to destroy” and then redeem himself from there, at least in Morning Star
I’m so confused about Austin’s rating - absolute outlier. Seems his overblown expectations dictated his rating.
Could very well be true thats fair!
Can’t wait to see your guys thoughts on the sequel series, I think you’ll like where Pierce takes the story
🫡
your ratings blow me away 😬 Morning Star is, maybe, the best book I've ever read in my life
1:00:27
the moment in Golden Son where Darrow randomly tells a blue “never tell me the odds”
I don’t think that was bad at all if im remembering right
If I'm remembering correctly, this was after Darrow tells his risky ass plan to a blue, who mind you, are literal walking computers. Darrow's plans are always risky. He knows the odds of them working are never in his favor. Him saying "Never tell me the odds" after the blue says "Sir the odds of you succeeding in this plan are 4.12 in 100" or some shit like that makes a ton of sense, considering who he is. I find it intriguing that you found that line to be cringy or at fault. Do you mind explaining why it was bad, or at least not good?
I love how in the first Red Rising review Richard said that Austin would have to drop his score by necessity, but here we are with both Red Rising and Golden Son as perfection and Morning Star as "it's okay" lol
For me Red Rising is the lowest in all the six books. I cannot wait for you two to get through the sequel series
SPOILERS: Is anyone else frustrated by the first-person narration deliberately obfuscating the Sevros fake death? Like, Darrow clearly knew from the beginning that Sevro wasn't actually dead, yet his narration was him acting like he had no idea and he was so gutted. Really poor usage of the narration to try and create a huge twist.
That did come to me (austin) probably more so than most - definitely a part of my struggle with the ending
I had a problem with that at first. Now, my head canon is that he was thinking about Sevros being actually dead to help himself act better. I'm a good liar because I convince myself temporarily that the lie is true in my head. Maybe Darrow was doing the same. When he described the smell of the box they were in as only sweaty and not sweaty and bloody, that's when I took the hint.
Personally, I found the complete opposite. Yeah Darrow had a bit of inner narration about his grief, but it was NO WHERE near as much as what he had for other fallen friends like Pax, Ragnar, Lorn, etc. I was actually confused at first and thought this is a new state of shock Darrow was experiencing where he was thinking so much that he could not get any actual thoughts constructed in his narration. The twist was then suspected in my perspective, after noticing this, and realizing he is still able to respond to Cassius, Aja, and the boneriders' taunts. That isn't shock, that is acting. So i was like 70% sure this was an act and it was confirmed when it was revealed of course.
32:50 i don’t think that’s what happened though. golden son ended with roque and thistle betraying him, but also with victra proving her loyalty. when darrow first gets to tinos in morning star, he learns that clown, pebble and screwface also stuck by him. it’s more complex than just the betrayal. i think the fact that darrow feels way less untouchable was a great choice
I think Austin will appreciate the next books more as his biggest problem was Darrows lack of flaws and development in this third installment. I have also already read Lightbringer because in Germany we get the book sooner than the official release date for some reason.
Warte wo hast du das früher bekommen?
Deutscher Release ist doch erst im November oder 😅
Lightbringer already! Damn that’s cool and I’m excited to finish the series even with my so-so feelings toward Morning Star
@@moe_h11Wenn man bei Thalia bestellt. Hab ich auf Reddit mitbekommen und dann extra neu dort bestellt und meine Amazonbestellung abgebrochen.
Sequel series absolutely elevates this story from very good to top tier. Dark Age is a masterpiece. Looking forward to you guys continuing the series!
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Austin, you are NOT ALONE! I felt the exact same about this book and couldn’t exactly voice why that was until I listened to this. Your thoughts and feelings were mine exactly!
Vindication!!
I felt the opposite about Darrow coming out of imprisonment. Him turning into Darth Vader wouldve been silly. The fact that he flip flops on trusting people makes more sense for a damaged person like Darrow.
I (austin) disagree but see your point! Fair thing to think
I'm kind of with you, Austin. I loved Golden Son and the twist thing with Sevro didn't sit super well with me on a first read. I don't think I viewed it that much lower than Golden Son though. Haha
Fair! Did you appreciate it more upon second read? I heard that the book benefits from reading it more than once.
@@2ToRamble oh definitely. Every book was better on a re-read for me. I still like Golden Son more though. Haha I can't really decide if I liked Golden Son or Iron Gold more... Dark Age is amazing too, but... So heavy.
Couldn't disagree more. This is a solid book. Character development was consistent. Darrow need to get back to go forward. It's not about action, but growth. Many books failed to overthrown a corrupt system without a solution. Morning show excel at that. Emotional impact was BRUTAL. so many devastating scenes. Darrow trauma, sevro's insecurities, sevro's self sacrifice, Ragnar, Cassius knowing the truth. Cassius and Darrow once again friends. Telemanus on board. Mustang support. GANYMEDE DOCKS. OMG. OMG. The final stroke with Octavia, jackal. The Augustus brothers final interaction. Oh and the very end? It was perfection. Nothing less
And ROQUE. A perfect scene and a brutal lesson for Darrow.
We might not have focused on it as much as we should’ve but Sevro’s insecurities was definitely a highlight for both of us, and Ganymede docks ofc. Was this your favorite book of the series?
I am so in agreement with Austin! Morning Star didn’t live up to Golden Son and Red Rising. But I did enjoy the series as a whole.
I just gobbled up all five books, loved them, and it was five stars across the board, lol! I do appreciate more technical & deep dive reviews though, as my brain doesn't work that way.
Appreciate you watching - You must be very excited for Lightbringer!
@@2ToRamble Amazon shows it arriving by 11PM tomorrow. 😁
29:95 I mean there was just no rage left in him after 12 month of the box. He was a broken hust at that time. It would be bad writing for Darrow just to be back to as wrathful as usual after that long time of torture.
I just finished this yesterday. Perfect timing!
😁
Every week at 2toRamble…
Austin (holding a gun): Richard, which book should we review in our next Podcast Episode, Stormlight or Red Rising? …
(There is no other way to explain that we still have just 1 Wheel of Time and 1 Discworld Episode)
😂😂😂
I can’t believe you gave it 6/10 😮 I seriously loved it and Morning Star was easily my favorite of the trilogy
You guys finding a cringe line in a random page in the book was cracking me up. Definitely loved Morning Star and looking forward to discussion about the other books.
So, I have just finished Morning Star last night. I binged read all 3 books in less than a week. I had to go to sleep after finishing it because i had a major test today that i have not prepared enough because of all the reading. As I was getting ready today I was listening to you guys, I just randomly found the channel. I think Austin was able to put into words exactly what I was feeling. I’m terrible with words, this is probably the first comment I leave in a youtube video (and this is coming from someone who watches it daily), but I just have all this feelings that i’m feeling. I dont think Red Rising would get a 9.7 out of me. I definitely don’t have a score system but i almost dnf’d the book before Darrow got in the Institute (I had the book for years and I had a feeling I was going to enjoy it so i tend to postpone it, but then when I eventually got to it I was’t feeling it at all). Afterwards though, it paid off. I’d give it an 8.75 overall, just because I had to power through the first third or so, even though I think the other 65ish percent where perfect. Golden Son is a 10/10. Again, the feelings I was feeling. I immediately put the whole trilogy in one of my all time favorites, even though I had not read the third book. I know some things just felt like they worked out a bit too easily in the first two books but it was believable for me. And then comes Morning Star. I still think its a fair ending for the trilogy. One of the best series I read. Definitely the one I love the most in recent times. But it just felt odd. I think you said everything. I could not even begin to express myself accordingly. But things were working out too perfectly at the end. What if the Jackel had shot Sevro again, just for the fun of it? I mean, come on! And Mustang! I needed more! I’m glad for the happy ending of sorts, i dont think my heart could take it any other way, but i was expecting something else. I think specially because I read all 3 back to back, it just felt bland compared to all the rest. Maybe I should have giving some time. I’ll wait a bit to read the rest. Guess i’m done, just had to pour my heart out. Now i’ll binge watch the podcasts and look for a recommendation on the next book i’m reading, maybe find a 10 favorites list? If anyone read all of this, please send some recommendations!
Very much on the same page as you, glad we were able to help say some of the things rhat were on your mind! For book recs - we always do a spoiler-free version for every review we put out though wendont have a top 10 list - I (austin) would try recommending something based on Red rising, but honestly I havent found anything that scratches that same itch yet. Im still ok the hunt! (Reading The Will of the Many right now which I heard scratches that itch)
Wow, what a fun and interesting discussion. I must interject on the Darrow's character thing, and also on the redemption. (agree on Mustang though).
First it really fits Darrows guilt towards Roque for not confiding in him and sedating him that he would for a large part blame himself for the betrayal. I think that from the start of the series we see that Darrow learns quickly to direct his anger towards specific persons or goals that embody gold supremacy, rather than any gold or any person that irks him. And then with Kavax there really I experienced no inconsistency. Knowing and deciding you need to confide in people more, does not mean it is easy at the moment. I'm sure we all have points in our lives where we theoretically decided beforehand what we were gonna do and then were very queezy when the moment came. And yes, there could have been more trauma, but it would not necessarily have to be rage or trust issues with friends or allies. Based on this I have to disagree that Darrow has been only rage for the first two books and I feel that his development here was fine. Although I can also agree that it would have been fine for him to come out rageful and learn the lesson later like you suggested.
Second, I am not sure whether Pierce Brown thinks that Tactus or others are redeemable. Darrow does. And I think this is an very awesome way for an author to make us question for ourselves "when are people redeemable and when aren't they". It is clear where Austins line lies, based on the discussion, but I myself am not entirely sure. In the case of Tactus we know what his upbringing was, that his brothers were horrible violent and abusive monsters even for gold standards. Is it so strange that he has not developed the right morals and boundaries?
Woah. Love the input on Darrow vs Pierce Brown’s thoughts on redeemption and your view of Darrow’s arc! We do disagree, but this comment made me do some thinkin. I don’t like thinking. Dont ever comment again 😂
@@2ToRamble love joining you in disagreeing. It is an honour to fit your awesome format 😉
He's really missing the point of Darrow's character. Darrow same in the darkness that even though he was betrayed you had to become the bigger, better person. If he would have just gone into a fit of rage we'd just be right back where they started, he had to break the cycle of revenge the golds used on each other, he had to bring in a new order of forgiveness to truly learn real strength.
Every times i listen your intro, i want to go and listen to original sound track of it. Absolutely epic ❤️🔥
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In a series filled with wonderful, rich and engaging characters, Mustang stands out as being the least interesting. As is often the case with the love interest (A flaw I find often in young adult books), we aren't shown why she is worthy of the protagonist's attention, but are simply expected to like her because he does. With the exception of that first time that she saved his life in Red Rising, I have never seen any qualities other than her beauty that make her desirable to Darrow. She isn't as loyal as Sevro, Ragnar... nor even Victra. She hasn't ever been responsible for any victories. Her morals are still firmly placed in society values until the last moment (and even then what choice did she have after she has already burnt her bridges with the opposition). She isn't even as reliable in her support as a friend as the rest of the cast, as she always has her own agenda.
So being as she is neither loyal, helpful to the cause, morally strong in character or a good friend, why the hell should she get to constantly be in charge of armies, be given the benefit of the doubt time and again, and worst of all, get to act as though Darrow must prove himself to her rather than the other way around.
To make all this worse, this series ends with her being crowned as the new ruler. Why? What has she possibly done or shown over the course of the previous 3 novels that has proved that she is leadership material? She hasn't even proved to be competent in most cases.
So then we get to the final reveal that she has been testing Darrow through this book to see if he is worthy to learn that he has a son. Not only that, when she does reveal it, it is by having their friends and Darrow's family present the boy to him, making it clear that she told literally every other person in this novel before she told Darrow. What the hell had Darrow ever done to make that the right choice? I know the author wants us to believe that she was afraid that he was a warmonger, but at no point in the entire series are any of the characters ever left unclear as to why he has acted as he has. It has all been for a better life for his people.
At no point does she express any sympathy or regret for what Darrow has had to go through. She doesn't apologise that her family was responsible for the suffering of his people or the death of his wife and unborn child, other than to ask him why he doesn't hate her for it at the end of the last book while she was holding a gun to his head. She never says that she is sorry for entering into a loving relationship with Cassius, a man who was actively seeking Darrow's death, other than for the fact that the relationship ended up hurting her, not caring how it probably hurt Darrow. She never once shows sympathy or asks him about the fact that he spent a year of his life going through unspeakable torture. She never once shows regret for the way that she acted when he risked everything, including the freedom of his people, to tell her the truth of his life. Even Victra showed more moral character, telling Darrow how she would never have judged him for being a Red.
Love comments like this bc they make me think - this didnt cross my (austin) mind - but now Ive got to mull it over!
Idk, man. I am a big mustang fan from the second book, I thought they had some really good dialog. But the third was really lacking, 1000 questions between them and nothing was said.
I disagree with you that she is just there to be darrow's love interest. I think she is a strong character in that she gets shit done and most of her schemes work out. Pretty badass at times.
I think what is missing is that she never has the motivation of other characters to join the cause. It's always the step she takes after it's glaringly obvious that it will benefit her the most. Very situational and always done as a my back is against the wall kinda thing.
Sure her values are what puts her back to the wall but she never does anything until push comes to shove.
I totally understand Austins rating and reasoning.
Firstly what I liked was the fighting scenes and all of Darrows speeches. What really was amazing of course was the torture scene and the incredible dynamic between Sevro and Darrow.
The main thing for me that greatly bothered me was the final twist. It just felt a bit too obvious to me what was gonna happen, which kinda ruined that section for me when it did exactly as I thought. The saving grace was the jackals final plan and the resolve of his character, which I found awesome. Also the Mustang/Darrow dynamic dropped a bit for me.
Lastly though the (which isn't really a ptoblem as I havent read the new saga yet) is that I went into the book expectimg a certain final end. That resolve was strengthened when I realised that the book was about rebuilding not destroying, yet a lot was destroyed and I only see glimpses of reconstruction in the end.
Thanks for the thoughts-totally get your review as well, how’d this book compare to the rest in the trilogy for you?
You should have brought up how the author used the "everything is going wrong, gotcha! It was all in the plan" two times, back to back in the same book. I listened to it on audiobook which might have made it worse, since the reader acted it out very earnestly. It was worst the second time, since I figured out the twist, but Darrow was wailling in his own head about how bad things where going.
No worries, I’m in your camp! I loved the second book but I was also disappointed in the third. I think the third was just to over the top. After two books of backstabbing and treachery….I was no longer really surprised.
Great video! I gave red rising 9.1, golden son 10, and morning star 8.5 using your rating system! The plot is where a bunch of my points fell in morning star and I did not like Darrow as much in it either.
Very curious of your thoughts on the sequel series too - Morning Star wasnt too low for you, glad it ended fairly well overall besides those plot issues!
I think we read different books. I loved morning star and it was my top book in the series until I read dark age. The roque death scene and the Romulus-roque-Darrow politics was amazing! And the final plot twist with the dockyards was a total suprise. I think one of you (we know who) has sky high expectations and would not have like morning star regardless of how good it was.. but still a fan😅
Haha fair enough!
love the channel even though haven't yet started red rising but will you do an episode on the great hunt ?
We absolutely will - should be coming in August!
The jackal should’ve said “I think it’s time I had both my hands back” after severing Darrows
I agree with Austin. Morningstar was good, just okay. Red Rising moved me to tears, Golden Son was damn near perfect.
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The twist at the end was great, although I could see why you put the pieces together right away. You weren't emotionally invested anymore. With less enthusiasm about the direction the book is going, it allows your analytical side to take over entirely instead of what most people experienced was the shock and sorrow of Sevro dying. We were too busy being so upset and destroyed about that whole scene, along with Cassius's betrayal, that it was difficult to think about the one paragraph that hinted at this talking about mustangs plan like 3 chapters ago. To us, it felt like that was her plan falling apart, not that it was THE plan. I for one, figured it out differently. I still wasn't fully sure if it was part of the plan, so it was confirmed for me when Cassius started killing the knights and the plan was revealed. However, I started noticing how vastly different Darrow was internally narrating his grief for Sevro. For Roque, Ragnar, Tactus, and all his other good friends who have died, he put a ton of emphasis in his internal narration about the dread he feels thinking of their deaths. However, for Sevro, he barely thought about his grief, if at all. It was very inconsistent for his character. At first I thought that maybe he is experiencing a new state of shock that we have not seen from him thus far, but that thought was dismantled when he started replying to Cassius and Aja. Thats not shock, shock would be complete involuntary silence. He was entertaining their taunts and displays of power. Once I noticed this, I started thinking about the possibility of this being part of the plan, and perhaps Cassius actually is willing to work with them to dismantle the society and this was just an act. Then I started thinking why would Sevro dying be part of this plan? There is no way Darrow would allow Sevro to die as part of the plan. Then of course! Darrow once died too, back in Red Rising. Poetic for the same eyes (As Sevro has Darrow's red eyes) to experience the same state of false death by the same methods. Then wondering how Cassius even got in on this plan to begin with, and I remembered all about mustang's plan, and how shortly after she met with Cassius and they talked "off-screen". Darrow only references it once by asking her "Did you finally talk to him?" we just don't know who he was referring to.
Anyways to sum it up, I thought the twist was done fantastically. I don't think it was as obvious as you think it is, though I definitely agree with you, there were WAY too many things that could have gone wrong for this plan to have worked. It was waaay too risky, and did not make sense for Mustang of all people to make. She cares deeply of her friends, in a way where she would not put them in such danger unless she was certain of the outcome. She is unlike Darrow in this sense, where he is fully willing to go through with any plan as dangerous as it may be, even if he had a slim chance at victory.. regardless of who is put in death's way. So there are definitely flaws to this twist, and how it was handled.
I loved the first 2 books and thought Morning star was good but not as good. I'd rate them as a 9,9,7 in order.
I agree that we needed to explore Darrow and Victra's recovery from the torture more but not towards darkness like Austin was saying. I feel like everyone has blown over the opening of the first book and what Darrow loved the most about his people was that they found happiness even through all their hardship. He may be hot headed but he never stared an angry person. He wanted to sing and dance and have a family and that was the most basic and pure part of him from the start.
The rage throughout the series is almost more of a coping mechanism to keep himself on track and motivated. Its often something he has to turn on.
I think from that, the message of the books shift in the 3rd from the angry 'break the chains' movement to Ragnar's final words of 'live for more'.
Darrow comes out of torture and years and being alone to his family and friends and this whole book he can embrace his old self a little more and be less ragefull.
Mustang and Darrows interactions annoyed me though. Golden sun may have ended with them in a difficult position but they still loved each other and when they finally met again after a year of torture and thinking Darrow was killed.... That should have been a much more fleshed out moment and while not falling into each other, they should have embraced each other more. Especially from Mustang knowing they have a kid together.
Finally, my last point is i was really disappointed in the story arc of her not telling him he had a child. Firstly that wasn't her decision to make and secondly it resonated too much of Eo not telling him and making decisions without him. Throughout the rest of the books Mustang always showed him more trust and was always open with him...
For me it just left what was supposed to be a high note with a real sour taste.
The amount of times this book and the series as a whole made me cry and stain the pages with my tears is insane.
Halfway through, can’t wait to watch the rest of this video
29:56
I think that Darrow was more rational and not driven by rage also because he sees Sevro being driven by it at the beginning and only causing destruction. So to me it made sense that he didn’t choose to seek revenge but tried to find a way to build something better.
Anyway I agree with Austen about Roque. I can understand Darrow still caring for him in some way (also given the fact that he feels responsible for losing him) but not his justifying his actions.
(Sorry for my English, it is not my first language)
I understand the point of where the plot could’ve gone with Darrow learning more lessons. But as someone who liked Golden Son the least… I loved Morning Star. We needed a grand scheme reason, not rage, not a psycho, not a sword without purpose. His friends and family needed to be developed to create a why for when this is all over. & as a reader, I needed less intensity and relationship building. The only thing I would change is that Ragnar died 💔
Ragnar will be missed 🥲 and fair enough - glad this book did it for you!
I think what austin talked about at 47:56 is perfectly foreshadowed in this book, most noticeable were the chapters with Roque.
Listening to your review because im getting ready to drop Morning star with 8 hours left to listen to. I liked the first two books even though I almost dropped the series at the beginning of the first book.
Let us know your thoughts after/if you finish!
Austin, know that you are not alone and that I completely agree with you. I’ve been reading the books alongside this podcast, and it’s okay to call Morning Star what it is, and that’s disappointing. Not bad! Just not what we know it could have been. I knew 1/4 into the book that I wasn’t going to get the Darrow arc I was hoping for, and 2/3 into the book I knew I wasn’t going to get the overall trilogy arc I wanted either. It just felt like a rushed effort by Brown, which was confirmed, to me, by his acknowledgment section when he mentioned that he struggled writing the book past the first few chapters….only to still have it finished, edited, and published a year after Golden Son. I just wish he had spent more time crafting character choices and plot. Without spoiling anything, I agree with all of your critiques and want to add that I felt like The Jackal was massively underutilized which really felt like a waste of potential. That all being said, I’m still excited to read Iron Gold and continue along with you both! Also, I hate to admit it but Richard is right that the writing, especially in Red Rising, is pretty corny and cheesy at times but ya know what, bring on the cheesy prose because it gets me fired up!!
Well hey there we go - I dont feel so alone! I’ll still defend his prose, but you and Rich aren’t alone in that critique either, maybe I’m just a simpleton. (Ok im definitely a simpleton) Cheers though - seems like we both had a very similar picture of Darrows character and how he would respond going into book 3!
I would push back a little on the hierarchy comments at the end since the whole color system was so ingrained in the society. I felt that asking a specific color to do something other than what they were Specifically bred and trained their whole life for would be weird. It would be like asking a slave who was born and bred to be a farmer to then want to be an “artist”. They don’t even know what that means. Their whole life and existence is that one specific job. Literally nothing else is an option. To me it was clear that the only people in the whole society that had options were the Golds. Everyone else was bred to do one job and one job only. That’s why it was so powerful to have specific people slightly grow to be a little more than what they were “made” for like Ragnar and Orion.
I hadn't thought about it till just but I agree with Richard about the Jackal in book 1 vs the rest.
I loved morning star but the ending was a tad “meh” it was so RUSHED in its resolution, it was all climax and NO resolution
Good way of putting it!
Just finished last night, loved it, was so nervous with the sevro storyline at first, thought it was gonna be a roque part 2, that scene where they “hashed it out” I actually cheered out loud
Gotta do iron gold soon. Darrow and the other character have some incredible arcs in the sequel trilogy. Also expanding to more POV character really opens up the world.
Rest of Red Rising Reviews definitely coming 🫡
I'm in the same boat as Austin. Loved the first 2 books and Morning Star was just ok. It was good but just seemed to perfect of an ending. Still going to continue the series.
I knew there was someone out there like me 🥂 I needed this lol
How would they guess that my people would come not from the sky, but from the heart of our planet
And I push myself off the ledge with both legs, flinging myself backwards into open air
I literally jumped out of my seat. Mind blown. Excited. Saying aloud, how can he write this creatively and emotion exploding????
Bro I’m right there with you I had to put it down for 2 months before finishing it
Oh Austin is gonna dig each successive sun eater book. just listening to his critiques on Darro… Hadrian Marlowe constantly changes book to book… ages exponentially through each and wears his scars differently each time
Just finished Morning Star last night and loved hearing your thoughts on it... what an amazing trilogy. It's probably my third favorite now behind The Night Angel trilogy and Mistborn trilogy. Would love to hear your thoughts on Night Angel; it's incredible. I see some Brent Weeks books on the shelf so you are already familiar with the author.
I am with Richard on this one. I would go between a 7 and 8. Very good book, but not as good as golden son
Fair!
As an anonymous published writer, I know the issue here. The reason why so many fans are mixed on Morning Star is that it simultaneously has the Awesomeness of Pierce's prose and the Red Rising World while 1) also not delivering on the proper progress of the story towards the ultimate goal. 2) And the Promise at the end wasn't fulfilled in the tonal way that the red rising story has been told up to that point. Let me explain. SPOILER WARNING
1) The way they transitioned to the Obsidian World was abrupt, seemed unnatural, and spent way too much time there.
2) And the fact that Darrow was basically emasculated by Aja and wasn't really the one to beat her in the end when throughout the whole story up to that point, even if Darrow lost, he always PERSONALLY overcame the challenge EVENTUALLY. They needed an entire team just to beat her. It stripped some of the shine off the Reaper. These, in my opinion, are the two biggest reasons.
I loved all three books but I would rate Golden Sun , Morning Star then Red Rising. I will definitely read them again in a few years… thanks for the videos guys keep up the good work
I feel so validated. I LOVED Red Rising and Golden Son was incredible, Morning Star? I had to skip a few chapters to finish 😅 it just wasn’t my favorite of the three
Oof skipped chapters - which ones? Glad ya felt validated 🙌
I would put it 3 - 2 - 1. Loved them all absolutely, no major problem with any part of the books. ❤
It has taken me an embarrassing about of time to finish this book but its my first sci-fi so give me some grace 😅 The beginning chapters were good and I liked certain character quotes and found family moments but gosh... it felt slow at times. I'm in the same camp where we stayed in certain places too long and my interest was lost at points. I think compared to the other two books, we had a lot less intense "life or death" moments. Darrow always had a way out and I didn't get anxious excitement like in the first two. However, the twists got me at the end. My emotions for the last 100-200 pages were all over the place. I enjoyed the 4 on 1 scene, very reminisce of Red Rising vibes and the classic "friendship always wins" trope but not sure how I feel about the epilogue. I also wanted an ending where it didn't end super perfect, where there would still be flaws or an ending that could be taken different ways. But I'm glad to have closure and look forward to seeing where the story continues at some point 😊 Still an awesome trilogy that I'll be thinking about for a long time!
Great thoughts - you may like it slightly more than me (Austin) but I definitely agree this book didn’t ruin the trilogy for me and I will think back on it likewise for a long time!
@@2ToRamble Having now read the rest of the saga (that’s currently out) how do you think they compare? Do you prefer the newer/time skip ones?
@@summeroftheseasons1568 The first 2 books haven't been topped for me, though I haven't read Lightbringer yet and have heard unbelievable things - so very much looking forward to that. Dark Age was also great!
@@2ToRamble oh okay! I’ll get to them next year most likely 😅
As someone with trust issues, I can tell you, the two quotes you pulled to talk about does he have trust issues does he not, perfectly show what trust issues actually are.
Lol thats fair!
Just finished the book and I do have 2 points I am wondering about.
First ..... What happened to the robots thing??? ..... He kept building up how robots are scary and forbidden and how Nero was very scared of them ..... Then when we actually saw one it almost killed the howlers ..... And Darrow later was consirned that someone is now making robots ........ After that it is never mentioned again 😐😐 .... Is it so or did I miss something
Next one has spoilers ...
Second .... When Sevro "died" ..... Darrow kept refering to him as "Dead" ..... He kept saying "Sevro's dead body" ....... But he knew it is a lie ..... He knew Sevro is alive ..... Why would he say that to himself, in his own head ...... It's not like he knows we are on his shoulders that he needs to lie to us ...... I get why the author did it but it does not make any sense ..... Darrow did hide information from us before sure ..... But not exactly like here where he basically lied to us ..... to himself?? .... in his own head 😐😂
To your second point - totally see that and I (austin) agree. Part of the reason the ending didnt land as hard for me
I had a problem with that at first. Now, my head canon is that he was thinking about Sevros being actually dead to help himself act better. I'm a good liar because I convince myself temporarily that the lie is true in my head. Maybe Darrow was doing the same. When he described the smell of the box they were in as only sweaty and not sweaty and bloody, that's when I took the hint.
Just finished this book. I agree with Austin on this one. It's my least favourite of the trilogy, mainly because the fake out death and final plan were disappointing. I'd give Red Rising a 7, Golden Son an 8 and Morning Star a 6. Overall it's a fun, inoffensive trilogy. Not much character depth but a likeable cast , interesting world and some fun action. I think I'll move on from this series tho, not really interested in the next trilogy (at least for now). On to the Sun Eater series!
I do think that Morning Star is not as good as Golden Son. But I still think it’s a good trilogy ender. My thing is it’s less of “my kind of book.” I like the kind of story that Golden Son is over this. I compare MS to Return of the Jedi(though I think it’s better than ROTJ).
That being said, recently re-read the two sequels, and I love what they do, they are very different, we aren’t getting the same old thing (biggest pet peeve of all sequels). Curious to see if you guys like them, as diehard OG trilogy fans tend to like them less.
I liked Morningstar. My only tiny issue is that I wish we would’ve seen Mustang react more to her Father’s death and the reveal that the Jackal was behind their brothers death
Morning Star was not as good as the others. There were a few plot issues that made the story not as tight as the prior two. It’s not a bad book - but it’s not on the same level as the previous instalments.
Completely agreed
I think you both may have forgotten or maybe missed the reason why all the colors are more or so the same people in their respective color. The golds literally force them to be this way. They force implants on the pinks at a young age that cause horrible internal pain to force great pleasure upon themselves only when they are pleasuring a gold. They force blues at a young age to connect their nervous system to a computer chipset or some shit like that, making them all connected much like bluetooth connections and their only path in life is learning proficiency in computer arts, especially naval war ships. etc. etc. there is a reason why they are all the same, and this problem takes generations to resolve. They are also human, but forced to be the same.
I totally agree with you, I loved golden son and morning Star was just alright. I just didn’t like red rising as much as you.
Im soooo glad we were on time to do lightbringer
Regarding the 'hail reaper' moment discussed late 40-ish minutes... I feel they resolved this issue during the hanging scene where obviously the rising was going in a direction of hatred, revenge, a replacement hierarchy and new tyranny, although this was addressed quickly due to the short length of that rebellion by the obsidians, I feel it was addressed therefore for the end of the book to go back to that would feel wrong...
Btw probs going to need to do a re-read as I read all 3 books in 4 days lol
The racism on the one notes of colors is just proves how well the golds succeeded and further solidified just how much of a force the golds are
Ragnar’s death scene got me in the feels. I agree that, while great, this book didn’t have the action of its two predecessors. It was far more of an emotional ride.
Oops… spoiler.
I think it can be true and usually is in real life… that you can both feel or know that you need to act one way (trust others or say eat healthier) and then still have a hard time actually doing that thing. I think the bombing of the docks is an example of how his character has grown and shows he learned he can’t always trust others. Sorry you didn’t like book 3 as much :(. All three books were better for me on re read (highly recommend the audiobooks too)
Only to the Characters discussion so far, but I feel that since Darrow is so conflicted about trust, is in fact proving that he does actually have trust issues. People on complicated and they arent always consistent with their own world views in general, why wouldnt Darrow be the same as he experiencing one traumatic event after another?
I liked Golden Son, too and agree with Richard that the first one was the weakest. I think Austin was hopeful things were going to turn mega dark ... in which case, apparently the latter quartet may satisfy. I've heard they're very dark which is why I've held off on reading them haha :D
I really liked the ending of this book/ trilogy, too and the only thing that stuck out in my head as a major gripe was that the use of first person made it really hard to sell the 'twist' at the end when we're supposed to think that certain things have gone down with Cassius, Sevro et al .. Even if you say Darrow is an unreliable narrator, it doesn't quite work because how does he get 'surprised' by a plan he knows about and so we can only assume that he's deliberately going light in detail at that point because he's recounting the tale to someone else other than the reader ...
Interesting point on the ending there - that could definitely be part of the reason I wasnt wowed by it either, but real glad you enjoyed the finale!
I want to add this comment to any red rising videos !! If you are having a difficult time , PLEASEEEEE! Do yourself a favor and listen the audio drama adaption 😍 the voices for every character, the sound affects the music !!! It brings this story alive so much !! Making morning star #1! Just had to share
Heard amazing things about it!
I really enjoyed the first half. I thought the pacing took a massive hit in the middle, and the betrayal/death fake out near the end was cheap and unsatisfying.
I’m also a bit done with Darrow’s “we’re in an inescapable predicament… BUT I foresaw this and will now reveal that I planned a way out earlier”, a problem with first person narrative perhaps but I think a better writer could overcome it.
I also felt that after two books of avoiding saying fuck with some new in-universe substitutes, characters suddenly using the word felt jarring.
Austin said “carry the boats” in this video………… confirmed David Goggins fan?
WHO’S GONNA CARRY THE BOATS?
The beginning of the book was really good. I loved the scenes and writing of the first few chapters, especially Darrow in the Jackal's torture box.
But throughout the series I could never get behind the prose. It isn't even the present tense, though that is part of it, but its the choppy sentences that don't flow together. It's so hard to read for me. What did it for me though was Virginia. I think she is just a nonsense character and a total ass to Darrow. I had to put the book down when she came on the scene talking about trust 😅
Love your discussion though
I finished Morningstar last night. It took me about 2 and a half months to get through it. I really didn’t like the first part of this book. I disliked just about everywhere it was going . Until
About the halfway point. Once I got to the halfway point everything flipped itself and it completely started to work for me . I really enjoyed it and loved the ending a lot.
Glad it paid off! What didn’t work for you in the first half, but did in the second? Was there a moment that “clicked?”
Also ..... Sophocles is just perfect 😍😂 ..... If anything happens to him in later books I will organise an iron rain against the author 🤣
You know what ..... Sophocles for sovereign .... He has my vote 😂
I have the same order as you too !
But not with a big margin like you. Probably around 7.9 - 8.5 - 7.7
Same order as Richars or Austin? (Pls say austin if youre cool) 😁
@@2ToRamble i'm cool !
I did have a lot of the same problems with Austin on Morning Star, but I don't think it was bad. It didn't live up to Golden Son, but it was still good, just a bit better than Red Rising.
Just now finishing Morning Star...
Red rising- the first 100 pages are great, then the rest is some of the worst stuff ive read. Not trying to be mean but I truly didnt like it.
Golden Sun (everyone says this book is amazing)....i thought it was just okay.
Morning Star....this book is awesome. Darrow being humbled in the very beginning fit very. The Haemanthus Oil twist was a great call back to the first book while doing a trope that is usually (by usually i mean almost always) done terribly (fake out death), but its done really well due to that! Idk man. At the end of book 2 i thought i wouldnt continue with the series but after finishing morning star im going for the others too. 4/5 rating because i still hate its first person and think PB should have done it in 3rd person
Have you already finished books 4 and 5? If not what’s the schedule on that? Great video love the channel so far!
I (austin) finished book 4 and am halfway through Dark Age - we will be uploading those but not back to back as we want some videos that people who havent read the series can also view on the channel, but they will come!
@@2ToRamble sounds good I’m about done with morning star I think I have about 100 pages left from what I can tell.
@@2ToRambleoh my guy you should do a read along for lightbringer!!!
@@LeonC0704 how do we run that!
@@2ToRamble I don’t know… discord??? And we can discuss by parts. Like part I discussion, part II and so on
Im in the camp of living the second and third but still loved the first.
I love all the sequel trilogy though.
Only questionable story choice was the abomination in 6 books. So if Pierce can make abomination work he will have a perfect story record for me.
Just finished the book probably about 3 mins ago and I disagree with the fact that the jackal had his most memorable moment in book 1 (the hand scene). But also I feel like that scene was also not nearly as impressive as I have seen on line, which I guess helps me feel the build up to the end of book three rather then be disappointed? I just wanna see if I’m not alone because he is by far my favorite villain I have ever read (haven’t read a lot though lol)
I can see why Austin would be disappointed in this book because it’s not as action packed and there are quieter moments. However, I disagree with his thoughts on Darrow as a character. I think Darrow got humbled and I think that he does fight with himself alot of the time in this book. Is he making the right choices? Is he being a good friend and trusting when he should? I mean one thing that he battles with this whole book is trust! And he looks at it from different angles. Can he trust Servo like he trusted Darrow? Can he trust Mustang to give up everything for him when he took everything from her. Can he try to win Reque back after the betray and can they rebuild that friendship? Can he trust Cassius as all?? Things like that and it’s done well because the ending leads up to trust and it plays with the reader. I do agree that Darrow bounced back fast and that could have been handled a bit better, but it’s not like the through line isn’t there. I personally really enjoyed this book and thought that it was satisfying of an ending. I like how we are able to see the people around Darrow more that he takes other actions other then just being a “sword.” He tries to take a peaceful path with Ragnar and that costs him. He makes choices he knows will haunt him but he has to create peace. Thought the podcast was very informative and got me to think more on the book.
Great thoughts - appreciate the comment and this got me thinking as well! Cheers
With a year with only your thoughts to keep you company, you go through all the motions of exceptance. You have plenty of time to work past anger and understand the wrongs of your own actions. I think you my friend need to work past the anger in your own life so you can except the growth in Darrow.
Hey now don’t make me learn something from this 😂😂. Guess I didn’t see Darrow as the kind of character that would come out of the torture feeling that way, but fair point you made nonetheless!
@@2ToRamble read on my friend. Darrow's growth in the next books will change your mind on a reread
32:59 I think Austin came out with trust issues galore 😂
😭😂
Rich makes me never want to read wheel of time with his takes of this series lol. Especially the dialogue part
MS and LB are my 2 favs