Thank you, Dorukcider. I try and hold it in mind that as the First Sea Lord / CNO etc I need to explain things to the government to keep the funding going and support for the navy high.
Happy days! So glad to see the first episode of the German 1935 Campaign. Best of luck going forward and may the Battlegenerator and Research be in your favour :D.
A warm welcome to you. I'm recording a new episode this morning, exploring the strategy to take for the first war that has come up. Only episode 8, so shouldn't take you too long to catch up.
For me, it's a hard 'scrap' on the Deutschland. I think 1935 Germany is as close to a free hand as you will get for this start year in regards to the ball and chain of a lumbering legacy fleet, yet still hope to be competitive. Personally, I think the charm will be exercising said free hand. Can't wait to see what you come up with.
I'm leaning your way. IF converting Deutschland land was cheap, I could see it having some virtue as a 27kn ship until I build up a more modern battle fleet, but I doubt it very much.
Yay! I am pleased to see this seriese begin. Looking at the Legacy fleet, before we decide what to scrap the I would like to hear more about who you think you will be fighting, and what you think it will be fighting. Having said that, based on evidence presented, I would go for scrapping both battleships under construction and think about another BC and HC. I'd put off the CV until you have a fleet capable of North Sea operations, and rely on land based air until then.
Well, of course, one of the joys of RtW is you can never be sure who'll you'll be fighting. We are "only" the großadmiral. But I assume it will either be Russia, France or more difficultly, Italy. They each have 7 BB/BCs. France is the worst - only one 25kn ship, the rest slow. The USSR has two 25kns and a fast BC building (also in Japan). While Italy is the strongest with a couple of fast battleships. So, nothing too scary but I certainly want to be able to dictate the pace of the battle through superior speed. (Which also means avoiding night fleet battles, as that is a big speed equaliser).
Great overview. I just picked this game up a few weeks back and it’s my first time ever playing any of the Rule the Waves games. I watched your tutorial videos and I’m really looking forward to this play through series.
I really want to keep the Deutschland, but that speed will not just get it killed but will get any other ships it is divisioned up with killed as well. I think the play is to build a sister ship for Graf Spee and as time and money permits build 1-2 half sisters. The cruisers are a bit underwhelming but the speed on them is great. I agree about the AV, 2-3 large 10-12 plane AVs really do take a LOT of the scouting pressure of limited and valuable strike carriers.
I'm inclined to agree with you, Tim, on both points. For the AV the question is, do I keep them as pure AVs with just scout planes and good air defence, or stick 6in guns on them as CLs. Bearing in mind it might be possible to convert them to helicopter carriers in the late 50s or 60s (whenever helicopters become a thing), if they are not worn out by then.
Welcome aboard! We're up to episode 61 (now pressure to catch up 😉) which was a big post-war planning exercise to rebuild the fleet for the early missile age. I'm just taking all the feedback from everyone in the comments of that episode to present a revised plan. It's a very interactive bunch. Enjoy.
@@RvTWargames Thank you! And it's impressive that you not only have a 61 video series going, but you replied to my comment on a year old video lol. :) I really didn't expect anyone to see this.
I'm not sooooo big that I can't read everything that people kindly take the time and trouble to say, and try and reply... Possibly with a slight delay 😁
@@RvTWargames Well you do seem like a busy guy and put a lot of work into your videos. I'm on episode 2 now and there's a full on presentation with slides and graphs. :D
So happy to see a new play through! For me it’s a hard scrap on both battleships, put the money on BCs and modernization. As mentioned, hold off on the CVs. That’s my thoughts. Good to see you, cheers for another 100 episodes :D
Looking forward to learn about post-1940 gameplay, which I still struggle with. I remember from RtW2 that many players considered seaplanes a fire hazard with not enough upside to counter it, outside of use on AV. What is your take on that thought, especially for RtW3? The Stuttgart looks like a big DD, which I guess would kinda fit into the german plan Z had it ever been applied. IIRC that called for some small Cruisers as leaders for DD-squadrons.
I've never experienced seaplanes as a major fire hazard. Certainly not enough to exclude them compared to the importance of having good scouting in the 1930s and 40s. Torpedoes are a fire hazard too but I wouldn't want to necessarily exclude them too! Yes, the do seem like an in-between type of warship, too small to be real CLs, too big to be contre-torpilleurs or flotilla leaders. Certainly in World War 1 small light cruisers were used as flotilla leaders, but by World War 2 that practice had fallen away - cruisers were just needed for so many tasks and destroyers didn't operate in big flotillas anymore.
I can understand why. The big advantage of torpedoes is that in a battle the game will show you the torpedo range, which will help keep me out of torpedo trouble. Without them, it is harder to see when sneaky destroyers are trying to get into a launch position.
@@RvTWargames That is a good point actually, though once the battle lines dissolve into Chaos - especially at night - I usually lose track of those damn DDs. Of course at least half the Torp hits I take post-1930 are from long distance, sometimes at seemingly absurd angles. I wish my ships were able to snipe from max range. -.-
Very nice to see a new play-through! Now to the important things :) On one hand, I'm very tempted to say upgrade the Wettin, so you have something online in case an early war pops up. On the other hand, those two ships won't win a war against anyone anyway, so yeah, that'll be a "nope" to that option. Scrapping just the Wettin and upgrading the Deutschland would be a nice possibility, but from what I have seen in-game so far (not that I have gotten that far into the game, starting my games in 1890), boy oh boy, do those new engines cost a looooot of money), so that'll be a "I don't think so" for that option as well. I guess, what I'm saying, in my complicated, long-winded way is: Scrap them both. P.s. Just make sure to stay out of trouble until you can field at least a few decent BCs (if a 1935 game is anything like my 1890 games as Germany, this will be a real challenge, France and the British bloody hate me and I'm fighting tooth and nail to keep tensions at least in the yellow). P.p.s. Holy... look at those cruisers! I'm not sure "illegal" is a strong enough word for those! :)
Yes, HawkEye, I agree with you. To spend money on completing the only to spend money on upgrading them would mean they wouldn't be in service before a brand new Graf Spee entered service and they would always be second rate. As for the cruisers. The less said the better!
Brygun here. Ive posted a fair bit on RTW1 and RTW2 forums. Even into this age light surface raiders can do good work. Between wars preposition them around the globe. The merchants they sink will always be "safe" with none of the passenger liner issues of subs. They seem to add to sub kills. It is a choice as to how many. 3000 to 4000 ton will be enough. Though slow and often lost if caught they do build up merchant kills. The accumulated merchant losses can push an enemy into surrender. That 3,000 tons though x 10 of them is 30,000 so one BC/BB or 2 CA designs for fleet battles.
Unfortunately, I have no bases around the world and the game doesn't seem to model the German's network of support ships that supplied its raiders in the early stages of WW2. So, if I put even a small cruiser in say, West Africa, it will almost immediately start to suffer crew attrition and its crew quality will drop quickly down to the lowest quality. The would be the weakest cruisers. I could build AMCs, but I'm only allowed 2 in peacetime. Sadly, I think surface raiders are a poorly implemented part of the game.
That's a rough roll of the dice in terms of ship design. I'd probably go scrap heavy and try to keep out of more serious conflict while undertaking a complete rebuild that will support some longevity into the early missile age. The lack of available tonnage is a huge limitation. Excited for the series!
Luckily I should have a couple of year's grace before a conflict will breakout. And if I am diplomatic, even longer. So the first few years should fly past.
Having a blast playing this game. 1890, Germany. Took a random event, got Albania. Pissed off Italy. Tensions rose, took a few more events, tensions rose even more. War starts. I realize, that my most of my battleships cant move in, since the are short range. I loose a bunch of battles... Albania gets invaded. I loose my battleship (fortunately its garbage legacy battleship) I lose Albania. Start indestranding how the game works. Win a few battles. France, Japan, USA join on my side (somehow). I completely destroy italians in a few battles, leaving them with 0 battleships. Italy ends up loosing to me and gives albania back. I take Corsica. Good war. Start another war against Russia. Sink a heavy cruiser. Blockade Russia. Suddenly, UK joins on Russian side. Apparently, they have been allied for this whole time.... A coastal raide VS UK. Take the battle. Its my legacy battleships. Run to the bombardment target. Stop. Fire at it. The battle reaches absolute time limit, before the battleship can finish it (this ship is a complete failure) UK invades Albania. And I have 1 armored cruiser in the battle against entire royal navy. But its nighttime. Ambushed and sunk a few destroyers. But the damage becomes overwhelming and disengeging and stopping is just not enough... Ship sinks and Albania is invaded... again But I get a peace event. Grad the option to accept. It ended up being just the navy limitations. Not that bad. Next war: Austria. I had a bigger navy and better tech. Sunk a few cruisers. Tried invading Dalmatia Litteraly exloded his battleship. Litteraly the next minute I lose my cruiser in the same way. I thought that was really funny. Ended up sinking 3 of his battleships in the same battle with a few destroyers and lost just that cruiser (rip). Took Dalmatia. A very interesting battle occured somewhere after Dalmatia. Nighttime, very poor visibility, destroyers come at my cruisers and get annihilated, until 2 torpedoes hit my cruisers in the same minute. They ended up sinking. Lesson: Never let destroyers too close/nighttime + bad weather is perfect for nasty torpedo attacks. Thats pretty much it so far. The game is more fun, than it looks.
That is a wild ride! Well done for not getting too upset when things go wrong. You have to expect to lose sometimes but stay confident that you'll win in the end. It makes the victories all the more sweeter!
Having just started playing RTW3 I'm really enjoying these videos and they are very helpful in assessing ships in my game. So far aside from the tactical side of the game being some what confusing in the scenarios it generates my biggest confusion is some of the ships the AI comes up with to populate your fleet at game start. This maybe a feature but I have had several instances where ships in my starting fleet were either over weight or had main battery guns that I couldn't build and 1 instance a displacement that was bigger than any dry dock on the planet :P Scrap all the starting fleet ASAP and replace with more capable vessels. On a personal note could you do a tutorial focused on air and missile combat please maybe covering how to complete your first carrier conversion? I got very confused by the requirements to convert one in my 1920's start after I had the tech to do it. Thanks for the content.
It is something I will do. But for now, have a look at my France 1920 playthrough for carrier conversions and builds. RtW2 is very similar to RtW3 in this respect.
if there were 2 Deutschlands under construction, then it would be probably best to keep them, but with just one, and terrible Wettin maybe reaching 24kt in future it's probably best to scrap it, unless you could do a makeshift carrier conversion with them, or maybe just Deutschland.
Yes, two Deutschland'would have been a very different issue and I would have kept them. I could do a carrier conversion, but I already have the tech to do a real CV or CVL, so I'll probably do that.
Great to see this campaign kicking off! Your legacy fleet is almost as bad as my 1890's German fleet. Love your analysis thanks, always learn a lot watching your videos. Definitely scrap the old, inadequate designs. 1935 German fleet is tiny compared to likely enemies. You need to be able to outmanoeuvre / outrun the enemy or repeat the Great War experience. Also replace the illegal/inadequate cruisers as funds allow. I’d much rather watch a series with the small modern Kriegsmarine performing well above par as opposed to political manoeuvring to avoid wars you’d almost certainly loose. Looking forward to your launch of the Graf Zeppelin. Also looking forward to the design and build of a fast battleship or two even though CVs are better value for money IMHO :).
Thanks Leo. We're just at the start of the CV / BB tipping point. Aircraft abilities are about to shoot up as new more powerful engines start to be developed. That will change the time / distance relationship between CV and BB - How much ordnance can be delivered how quickly with what effect. Hmmmm, that gives me an idea for a new bit of analysis! But yes, out manoeuvring and outrunning sound like the way forward when you are the weaker navy.
I see nobody proposed to not scrap any building ships and send them to a museum as soon as they are built... (and for good reasons, I might add.) I have some opinions against AVs (namely: • You could use the money of an AV to build a bigger CVL that carries not only fighters to cover the BBs, but also TBs or DBs for scouting (which have greater range than floatplanes). • Helicopter carriers are even worse IMHO: helicopters lack the range to be effective scouts and they don't increase the ASW value of a helicopter carrier nearly enough to justify building them over DDs fitted for ASW. ), but you're playing with considerable tech variations, so it might turn out that none of the above holds true (possibly including the reliability of different types of engine firing, the effectiveness of larger vs smaller caliber guns, of multiple guns on turrets, armor, torpedoes, etc.). You'll have to keep your eyes peeled and determine those things for yourself during your first war, although I wonder if the variation of a tech's effectiveness applies only to newly researched technologies, or to the ones that have been researched by the start of the game. P.s.: Episodes 00 and 01 are inverted in your playlist. P.p.s.: I'd say scrap both, since I'm guessing that upgrading the Deutschland costs as much and takes as much time as building a new Graf Spees from scratch.
Both for role play and min-maxing, a single early carrier could make sense for the research bonus. Either a 20 month CVL or a ~25 month CV? Perhaps as small and cheap as a 15 month experimental CVL, or even a 10 month quick and dirty CVL refit of one of your mediocre starting CLs.
@@RvTWargames I have not tried it yet, though perhaps the RtW 3 division editor could allow you to assign such a single small CVL as a dedicated CAP protection + scouting asset for your nascent BB/BC squadron. And the research boost from having an active CV/CVL would be a bonus.
The best value for the Wettin would probably be an early aircraft carrier conversion. But given how almost the entire fleet needs to be modernized, I do not believe you can spare the budget for a WW1 replica.
I hadn't considered a CV conversion. The Wettin would be too slow. The Deutschland might work. But I'd have to spend money finishing it and then money on converting it. I'll do the sums but I think it would be cheaper just to build a new CV.
What is your take on the game? Worth it to upgrade from RTW2? The way that game manages flert composition for battle made me want to tear out all my hair.
Absolutely yes. It extends the game in interesting dimensions, adds all sorts of new features, but still has enough RtW2 feel to make it an easy transition.
Can anyone tell me how long a typical game lasts for. I really love games that last a long time, and take weeks, months, or even years to complete. My longest lasting game i have ever played was War in the Pacific AE which lasted for nearly two years. I really love naval games, and I'm kind of torn between this game and Ultimate Admiral Dreadnoughts, although UAD does not have carriers, or planes, which kind of puts me off.
My last playthrough, from 1920 - 1955, took a year he a half. But that includes recording. Nonetheless, if you want to go from 1890 to 1970, I'd imagine it could take a year if you go at a moderate pace. What really racks up the time is the big battles. They can last a long time - equivalent to a year's play. So, if you play with a bigger fleet it will have bigger, longer, battles.
@@RvTWargames Wow!! I was expecting a campaign to last maybe a few weeks, or, maybe a couple of months, so I'm really impressed with this, and the fact that this is such a deep, and complex game has really got me hooked. Thank you for letting me know.
My vote is to keep the deuchland as it is a pretty functional ship at a much more economical cost that the Graf Spee. The graf spee is too fast and too expensive and the truth is I would likely scrap it and build something in the 28Kn range. Its maintenance costs will also be high. My vote would be scrap Wetting and Graff Spee. Build two more Deuchland class and use the extra budget left to fix your cruisers which i find are the real backbone of fleets.
Interesting. It is true that you can get 3 Deutschland's for the cost of 2 Graf Spee's. And also wouldn't have made the Graf Spee so fast. But the Deutschland's are good 1925 BBs that are already starting to look their age as other navies are starting to introduce fast BBs.
@RvTWargames for Germany over armored battleships are a good thing as the survival of your ships is far more important than sinking other ships. Numbers are key to preventing yourself getting blockaded. I actually tend to build 14 and 15" gun ships over 16" as the rate of fire increase is significant. High rate of fire is excellent for doing crippling damage even if you dont sink tge enemy. Ironically all or nothing armor makes the smaller guns much more useful as the crippling damage is easier to inflict. Ships pummeled by 14" guns are easy pickings for destroyers as they tend to be very slow and denuded of their secondaries. I also like 14" guns a lot more against cruisers. I also tend to armor against my enemies guns not the ones I mount on my ships.
Certainly the King George V class didn't seem to suffer for having 14in guns and excellent armour. While the Vanguard was still competitive with the excellent British 15in guns.
Sadly the big German guns: 15 and 14in are only quality 0. The 16in gun for the Graf Spee is Japanese (not sure of its quality). 12 and 11in are quality 1, but obviously too small for 1935.
I'd keep Deutchland in original config for couple years for at least counterblocade tonnage. It has great armour and probably could defeat anything brits throw at it 1vs1.
You are not wrong that the Deutschland is a viable warship in 1935. It is better than the majority of battleships in the world's fleets. If it were already in service, I'd be happy to have it, and possibly rebuild it a little later to increase its speed. But I don't want it dragging down the speed of my fleet down to 24kn. It could end up like SMS Blücher in World War 1 being left behind if I need to retreat.
Just found this video. Your decision of BB over CVL is correct, but for the wrong reason. As Germany in 1935 most battles will be in the Baltic or North Atlantic where you should have land based air cover thus a CV is mute. This is why WWII Britain started with so few CVs.
I beg to differ. The Royal Navy in September 1939 had more operational carriers than any over leading navy plus a set of new highly suriviable fleet carriers building at a rate of 2 a year. CVs are always vital as you have no control whatsoever over land-based year. Land-based air is very rarely decisive. CV based air often is.
Those “new” battleships are truly awful. In opting to give you Germany I think I most people expected you to play with a small modern fleet. So turn Wettin & Deutschland into razor blades and get on with building some ships that Germany can be proud of.
IF they'd just been in service, I would have accepted them and made the best of them - probably rebuilding the Wettin to the same speed as Deutschland and running the pair as a mini battle fleet, while building up the 'scouting force' of fast BBs and BCs. But to have to pay good money into building them just seems like I've got better things to do with my money.
If you intend to have any role play aspirations for this series at all, there is no way any role play political leadership would allow you to scrap your building ships while having that skeleton navy... Making that gamey min-maxing choice of scrapping those inferior ships at this time kind of throws off the whole vibe. You would not be playing "Secretary of the Navy of Germany without treaty restrictions in 1935", but instead "Time Traveler ruling arbitrary clean slate entitiy xyz in Northern Sea Zone in 1935". That is totally fine, but a specific choice non the less, which however is at odds with your role play "balanced fleet composition" discussions. Full role playing choice: Keep and upgrade Wettin to 24kn Oil firing & 5inch DP secondaries for ~30k Keep the other building ships, later on potentially upgrade Deutschland for speed Have older ships in the Baltic Semi role play/min-max choice: Scrap Wettin Keep the other building ships, later on potentially upgrade Deutschland for speed Full min-maxing & exploit missing political controls for building ships: Scrap both building BBs
Good points. My counter would be, most of these legacy ships make no sense what do ever. Who would commission a 1915 battleship and a 1925 battleship in 1935? Not to mention most of the cruisers are completely illegal designs that should never be able to be built. If the battleships were already part of the fleet, that would be different. I would do the best that I could do with them. But to continue to build one obsolescent ship and one obsolete one doesn't make sense in 1935. So I don't regard it as min-maxing, which I'm not particularly interested in, but rather keeping it real for 1935.
@@RvTWargames Makes sense, I guess it is also a problem with game limitations and odd design decisions. Like the US did with the Lexington, the player should be able to convert already building ships instead of having to finish them as is and then having to start the rebuild afterwards. Nonetheless imho there should be some balance here. I understand scrapping the Wettin for the reason you pointed out, but imho scrapping the Deutschland goes a bit too far towards cherry picking the start. It is an ok ship to have around in 1936, when all the other nations should have Washington Naval Treaty designs around as well. And Germany just awaking from the capital ship building hiatus as well.
You are right about the inability to rebuild a ship that is under construction (with some appropriate penalty in terms of extra time and cost). As for the Deutschland, if it was in service, I would be fine to have it. And I would probably be happy to pay the cost of modernising it with new engines to bring it up to adequate speed. It is better than many battleships in the other navies, and of course, the real-life Nelson and Rodney did great service in the first half of World War 2, though after 1943 they were second rate battleships after the King George V entered service in enough numbers. But if I completed the Deutschland, it would distort my whole navy as the only slow ship in the fleet. At best this would be a drag on the rest of the fleet and at worst it would consign it to the fate of SMS Blücher at Dogger Bank, being too slow to make its escape with the rest of Hipper's scouting group.
Your BB vs CVL analysis is deeply flawed. 1) Assuming your throw weights are correct you do not account for how much the surface fleet will lose in ships and firepower from being attacked. With 125 kn distance any CVL commander worth their weight should get in multiple attacks on your surface vessels while your surface fleet does 0. 2) Unless the CVL commander is an idiot or you surface fleet is 10+ KN faster the surface fleet throw weight does not matter. A shell not fired is equal to 0. The CVL(s) will not stay and allow yoiu to close distance with them. Even if you have the 10+ speed advantage you are talking about a closing time of 12+ hours by which time it will be near dark and unless you have radar, the CVL will have a good chance of disappearing in the night.
1. 125kn = about 6 hour sailing. A carrier force should be able to get in two attack, possibly three, assuming a) they've been fine b) the weather is fine and c) the time of day is monring. 2. It is true that carriers can run away (as any surface ship can). But that might not be what the scenario requires (eg, doing invasions, protecting convoys, raiding the coast). And yes, in a couple of years in the 1935 start, radar will be a thing.
I just adore how you do these break downs. The slides are just amazing and makes it much more interesting
Thank you, Dorukcider. I try and hold it in mind that as the First Sea Lord / CNO etc I need to explain things to the government to keep the funding going and support for the navy high.
Agreed!
absolutely loved the new graphics you did for the fleet review, its amazing seeing your videos evolve over time!!
Awwww, thanks for noticing. Nothing like a new series to think again how to show what I'm talking about. :-)
Happy days! So glad to see the first episode of the German 1935 Campaign. Best of luck going forward and may the Battlegenerator and Research be in your favour :D.
Thanks. Excited to set sail on this new series!
Welcome back! I'm happy to see the start this series, it's been the most anticipated series of my life 🥲
Steady on, Zook!
Unless if course you've only a very short life, in which case I'll accept the kind thought. 😊
I like those analysis, and you look much better, have a nice year, ill be whatching >)
I like to think that the analysis is what I do differently from other channels. It is extra work, but very enjoyable work!
New to the channel and the game, thanks for explaining your strategy so clearly and I really appreciated the infographics you've added!
A warm welcome to you. I'm recording a new episode this morning, exploring the strategy to take for the first war that has come up. Only episode 8, so shouldn't take you too long to catch up.
@@RvTWargamescatch up? Watched all episodes yesterday 😁. Great news on the upcoming episode, all the best.
You'll have to look at my previous France 1920 playthrough if you are going to consume that quickly!
For me, it's a hard 'scrap' on the Deutschland. I think 1935 Germany is as close to a free hand as you will get for this start year in regards to the ball and chain of a lumbering legacy fleet, yet still hope to be competitive. Personally, I think the charm will be exercising said free hand. Can't wait to see what you come up with.
I'm leaning your way. IF converting Deutschland land was cheap, I could see it having some virtue as a 27kn ship until I build up a more modern battle fleet, but I doubt it very much.
First thing the Deutsche Marine needs to do is fire its ship designer. Are they working for the British Royal Navy? You seem to have been unlucky.
It could have been worse. I've seen 1935 Germany open with a division of Pre-dreadnoughts!
@@RvTWargames tbf, i believe the germans did have 2 or so pre-dreadnoughts at the start of ww2, so not terribly off from history
@@awhahoo yes
infact the first German fire in ww2 came from a pre dreadnaught the Schleswig-Holstein
Yay! I am pleased to see this seriese begin. Looking at the Legacy fleet, before we decide what to scrap the I would like to hear more about who you think you will be fighting, and what you think it will be fighting.
Having said that, based on evidence presented, I would go for scrapping both battleships under construction and think about another BC and HC. I'd put off the CV until you have a fleet capable of North Sea operations, and rely on land based air until then.
Well, of course, one of the joys of RtW is you can never be sure who'll you'll be fighting. We are "only" the großadmiral. But I assume it will either be Russia, France or more difficultly, Italy. They each have 7 BB/BCs.
France is the worst - only one 25kn ship, the rest slow.
The USSR has two 25kns and a fast BC building (also in Japan).
While Italy is the strongest with a couple of fast battleships.
So, nothing too scary but I certainly want to be able to dictate the pace of the battle through superior speed. (Which also means avoiding night fleet battles, as that is a big speed equaliser).
Scrap the old Deutschland and build a new Deutschland for a new Germany! That is my humble opinion, but I will follow either way, mein Großadmiral.
It is the will of the people!
Great overview. I just picked this game up a few weeks back and it’s my first time ever playing any of the Rule the Waves games. I watched your tutorial videos and I’m really looking forward to this play through series.
I hope you are enjoying it. I remember it being a bit 'oh Lord, what do I do now, I want everything!'. At first. But in a fascinating way.
I've been looking forward to this. I love the analysis.
Thanks a lot Blaze. It feels good to start a fresh project!
I really want to keep the Deutschland, but that speed will not just get it killed but will get any other ships it is divisioned up with killed as well. I think the play is to build a sister ship for Graf Spee and as time and money permits build 1-2 half sisters. The cruisers are a bit underwhelming but the speed on them is great. I agree about the AV, 2-3 large 10-12 plane AVs really do take a LOT of the scouting pressure of limited and valuable strike carriers.
I'm inclined to agree with you, Tim, on both points.
For the AV the question is, do I keep them as pure AVs with just scout planes and good air defence, or stick 6in guns on them as CLs. Bearing in mind it might be possible to convert them to helicopter carriers in the late 50s or 60s (whenever helicopters become a thing), if they are not worn out by then.
Hi I'm new here, I really like how in-depth you get with this stuff. :) I'm going to try to watch through your whole series
Welcome aboard! We're up to episode 61 (now pressure to catch up 😉) which was a big post-war planning exercise to rebuild the fleet for the early missile age. I'm just taking all the feedback from everyone in the comments of that episode to present a revised plan. It's a very interactive bunch. Enjoy.
@@RvTWargames Thank you! And it's impressive that you not only have a 61 video series going, but you replied to my comment on a year old video lol. :) I really didn't expect anyone to see this.
I'm not sooooo big that I can't read everything that people kindly take the time and trouble to say, and try and reply... Possibly with a slight delay 😁
@@RvTWargames Well you do seem like a busy guy and put a lot of work into your videos. I'm on episode 2 now and there's a full on presentation with slides and graphs. :D
Yup, graphs and presentations are my happy place 😁
I’m excited to see this new play though. I learn a lot from your content thanks to your beautiful breakdowns. You make very interesting infographics.
Thanks Bob. They are a pleasure to make.
So happy to see a new play through!
For me it’s a hard scrap on both battleships, put the money on BCs and modernization.
As mentioned, hold off on the CVs.
That’s my thoughts.
Good to see you, cheers for another 100 episodes :D
Thank you, Samperius. One down. 99-odd to do!
I think that You could sell this game to anybody just with that type of videos :)
Im really having fun playing it after watching few of Your's vids.
You're very welcome. Enjoy your new found admiraling skills!
Looking forward to learn about post-1940 gameplay, which I still struggle with.
I remember from RtW2 that many players considered seaplanes a fire hazard with not enough upside to counter it, outside of use on AV.
What is your take on that thought, especially for RtW3?
The Stuttgart looks like a big DD, which I guess would kinda fit into the german plan Z had it ever been applied. IIRC that called for some small Cruisers as leaders for DD-squadrons.
I've never experienced seaplanes as a major fire hazard. Certainly not enough to exclude them compared to the importance of having good scouting in the 1930s and 40s. Torpedoes are a fire hazard too but I wouldn't want to necessarily exclude them too!
Yes, the do seem like an in-between type of warship, too small to be real CLs, too big to be contre-torpilleurs or flotilla leaders. Certainly in World War 1 small light cruisers were used as flotilla leaders, but by World War 2 that practice had fallen away - cruisers were just needed for so many tasks and destroyers didn't operate in big flotillas anymore.
@@RvTWargames Thanks for the input.
tbh on BBs and BCs at least I exclude Torpedoes, not worth it usually, to me at least.
I can understand why. The big advantage of torpedoes is that in a battle the game will show you the torpedo range, which will help keep me out of torpedo trouble. Without them, it is harder to see when sneaky destroyers are trying to get into a launch position.
@@RvTWargames That is a good point actually, though once the battle lines dissolve into Chaos - especially at night - I usually lose track of those damn DDs.
Of course at least half the Torp hits I take post-1930 are from long distance, sometimes at seemingly absurd angles. I wish my ships were able to snipe from max range. -.-
Very nice to see a new play-through!
Now to the important things :)
On one hand, I'm very tempted to say upgrade the Wettin, so you have something online in case an early war pops up.
On the other hand, those two ships won't win a war against anyone anyway, so yeah, that'll be a "nope" to that option.
Scrapping just the Wettin and upgrading the Deutschland would be a nice possibility, but from what I have seen in-game so far (not that I have gotten that far into the game, starting my games in 1890), boy oh boy, do those new engines cost a looooot of money), so that'll be a "I don't think so" for that option as well.
I guess, what I'm saying, in my complicated, long-winded way is: Scrap them both.
P.s. Just make sure to stay out of trouble until you can field at least a few decent BCs (if a 1935 game is anything like my 1890 games as Germany, this will be a real challenge, France and the British bloody hate me and I'm fighting tooth and nail to keep tensions at least in the yellow).
P.p.s. Holy... look at those cruisers! I'm not sure "illegal" is a strong enough word for those! :)
Yes, HawkEye, I agree with you. To spend money on completing the only to spend money on upgrading them would mean they wouldn't be in service before a brand new Graf Spee entered service and they would always be second rate.
As for the cruisers. The less said the better!
Brygun here. Ive posted a fair bit on RTW1 and RTW2 forums. Even into this age light surface raiders can do good work. Between wars preposition them around the globe. The merchants they sink will always be "safe" with none of the passenger liner issues of subs. They seem to add to sub kills. It is a choice as to how many. 3000 to 4000 ton will be enough. Though slow and often lost if caught they do build up merchant kills. The accumulated merchant losses can push an enemy into surrender. That 3,000 tons though x 10 of them is 30,000 so one BC/BB or 2 CA designs for fleet battles.
Unfortunately, I have no bases around the world and the game doesn't seem to model the German's network of support ships that supplied its raiders in the early stages of WW2.
So, if I put even a small cruiser in say, West Africa, it will almost immediately start to suffer crew attrition and its crew quality will drop quickly down to the lowest quality. The would be the weakest cruisers.
I could build AMCs, but I'm only allowed 2 in peacetime.
Sadly, I think surface raiders are a poorly implemented part of the game.
That's a rough roll of the dice in terms of ship design. I'd probably go scrap heavy and try to keep out of more serious conflict while undertaking a complete rebuild that will support some longevity into the early missile age. The lack of available tonnage is a huge limitation.
Excited for the series!
Luckily I should have a couple of year's grace before a conflict will breakout. And if I am diplomatic, even longer. So the first few years should fly past.
Having a blast playing this game. 1890, Germany. Took a random event, got Albania. Pissed off Italy. Tensions rose, took a few more events, tensions rose even more.
War starts. I realize, that my most of my battleships cant move in, since the are short range. I loose a bunch of battles...
Albania gets invaded. I loose my battleship (fortunately its garbage legacy battleship)
I lose Albania.
Start indestranding how the game works.
Win a few battles.
France, Japan, USA join on my side (somehow).
I completely destroy italians in a few battles, leaving them with 0 battleships.
Italy ends up loosing to me and gives albania back.
I take Corsica.
Good war.
Start another war against Russia.
Sink a heavy cruiser.
Blockade Russia.
Suddenly, UK joins on Russian side. Apparently, they have been allied for this whole time....
A coastal raide VS UK.
Take the battle.
Its my legacy battleships.
Run to the bombardment target.
Stop.
Fire at it.
The battle reaches absolute time limit, before the battleship can finish it (this ship is a complete failure)
UK invades Albania. And I have 1 armored cruiser in the battle against entire royal navy.
But its nighttime.
Ambushed and sunk a few destroyers.
But the damage becomes overwhelming and disengeging and stopping is just not enough...
Ship sinks and Albania is invaded... again
But I get a peace event. Grad the option to accept.
It ended up being just the navy limitations. Not that bad.
Next war: Austria.
I had a bigger navy and better tech. Sunk a few cruisers.
Tried invading Dalmatia
Litteraly exloded his battleship. Litteraly the next minute I lose my cruiser in the same way. I thought that was really funny.
Ended up sinking 3 of his battleships in the same battle with a few destroyers and lost just that cruiser (rip).
Took Dalmatia.
A very interesting battle occured somewhere after Dalmatia. Nighttime, very poor visibility, destroyers come at my cruisers and get annihilated, until 2 torpedoes hit my cruisers in the same minute.
They ended up sinking.
Lesson:
Never let destroyers too close/nighttime + bad weather is perfect for nasty torpedo attacks.
Thats pretty much it so far. The game is more fun, than it looks.
That is a wild ride! Well done for not getting too upset when things go wrong. You have to expect to lose sometimes but stay confident that you'll win in the end. It makes the victories all the more sweeter!
Having just started playing RTW3 I'm really enjoying these videos and they are very helpful in assessing ships in my game.
So far aside from the tactical side of the game being some what confusing in the scenarios it generates my biggest confusion is some of the ships the AI comes up with to populate your fleet at game start.
This maybe a feature but I have had several instances where ships in my starting fleet were either over weight or had main battery guns that I couldn't build and 1 instance a displacement that was bigger than any dry dock on the planet :P
Scrap all the starting fleet ASAP and replace with more capable vessels. On a personal note could you do a tutorial focused on air and missile combat please maybe covering how to complete your first carrier conversion? I got very confused by the requirements to convert one in my 1920's start after I had the tech to do it. Thanks for the content.
It is something I will do. But for now, have a look at my France 1920 playthrough for carrier conversions and builds. RtW2 is very similar to RtW3 in this respect.
Great start. Thank you.
You're very welcome!
This is great! What fleet size option did you choose at the game setup?
I imagine Very Large (I'm away at the moment). The smaller sizes are actually harder to play.
Enjoying this one. Which Fleet Size option are you using in this game?
Very Large (second largest fleet size), though of course the German navy starts very small!
if there were 2 Deutschlands under construction, then it would be probably best to keep them, but with just one, and terrible Wettin maybe reaching 24kt in future it's probably best to scrap it, unless you could do a makeshift carrier conversion with them, or maybe just Deutschland.
Yes, two Deutschland'would have been a very different issue and I would have kept them.
I could do a carrier conversion, but I already have the tech to do a real CV or CVL, so I'll probably do that.
Great to see this campaign kicking off!
Your legacy fleet is almost as bad as my 1890's German fleet. Love your analysis thanks, always learn a lot watching your videos.
Definitely scrap the old, inadequate designs. 1935 German fleet is tiny compared to likely enemies. You need to be able to outmanoeuvre / outrun the enemy or repeat the Great War experience. Also replace the illegal/inadequate cruisers as funds allow.
I’d much rather watch a series with the small modern Kriegsmarine performing well above par as opposed to political manoeuvring to avoid wars you’d almost certainly loose.
Looking forward to your launch of the Graf Zeppelin. Also looking forward to the design and build of a fast battleship or two even though CVs are better value for money IMHO :).
Thanks Leo. We're just at the start of the CV / BB tipping point. Aircraft abilities are about to shoot up as new more powerful engines start to be developed. That will change the time / distance relationship between CV and BB - How much ordnance can be delivered how quickly with what effect. Hmmmm, that gives me an idea for a new bit of analysis!
But yes, out manoeuvring and outrunning sound like the way forward when you are the weaker navy.
I see nobody proposed to not scrap any building ships and send them to a museum as soon as they are built... (and for good reasons, I might add.)
I have some opinions against AVs (namely:
• You could use the money of an AV to build a bigger CVL that carries not only fighters to cover the BBs, but also TBs or DBs for scouting (which have greater range than floatplanes).
• Helicopter carriers are even worse IMHO: helicopters lack the range to be effective scouts and they don't increase the ASW value of a helicopter carrier nearly enough to justify building them over DDs fitted for ASW.
), but you're playing with considerable tech variations, so it might turn out that none of the above holds true (possibly including the reliability of different types of engine firing, the effectiveness of larger vs smaller caliber guns, of multiple guns on turrets, armor, torpedoes, etc.). You'll have to keep your eyes peeled and determine those things for yourself during your first war, although I wonder if the variation of a tech's effectiveness applies only to newly researched technologies, or to the ones that have been researched by the start of the game.
P.s.: Episodes 00 and 01 are inverted in your playlist.
P.p.s.: I'd say scrap both, since I'm guessing that upgrading the Deutschland costs as much and takes as much time as building a new Graf Spees from scratch.
The museum has a cost too!
Both for role play and min-maxing, a single early carrier could make sense for the research bonus.
Either a 20 month CVL or a ~25 month CV?
Perhaps as small and cheap as a 15 month experimental CVL, or even a 10 month quick and dirty CVL refit of one of your mediocre starting CLs.
That is a good point, Locarnus. I have had success with a CVL equipped with fighters that supports the battle fleet to provide CAP in the past.
@@RvTWargames I have not tried it yet, though perhaps the RtW 3 division editor could allow you to assign such a single small CVL as a dedicated CAP protection + scouting asset for your nascent BB/BC squadron. And the research boost from having an active CV/CVL would be a bonus.
The best value for the Wettin would probably be an early aircraft carrier conversion. But given how almost the entire fleet needs to be modernized, I do not believe you can spare the budget for a WW1 replica.
I hadn't considered a CV conversion. The Wettin would be too slow. The Deutschland might work. But I'd have to spend money finishing it and then money on converting it. I'll do the sums but I think it would be cheaper just to build a new CV.
Oh yes, I've been waiting for this! I think scraping is due for Deutschland, a far better ship could be made.
That seems to be the consensus, Callum.
What is your take on the game? Worth it to upgrade from RTW2? The way that game manages flert composition for battle made me want to tear out all my hair.
Absolutely yes. It extends the game in interesting dimensions, adds all sorts of new features, but still has enough RtW2 feel to make it an easy transition.
Can anyone tell me how long a typical game lasts for. I really love games that last a long time, and take weeks, months, or even years to complete. My longest lasting game i have ever played was War in the Pacific AE which lasted for nearly two years. I really love naval games, and I'm kind of torn between this game and Ultimate Admiral Dreadnoughts, although UAD does not have carriers, or planes, which kind of puts me off.
My last playthrough, from 1920 - 1955, took a year he a half. But that includes recording. Nonetheless, if you want to go from 1890 to 1970, I'd imagine it could take a year if you go at a moderate pace.
What really racks up the time is the big battles. They can last a long time - equivalent to a year's play. So, if you play with a bigger fleet it will have bigger, longer, battles.
@@RvTWargames Wow!! I was expecting a campaign to last maybe a few weeks, or, maybe a couple of months, so I'm really impressed with this, and the fact that this is such a deep, and complex game has really got me hooked. Thank you for letting me know.
Excellent. Let me know how you get on with it!
Ahoy sailors. Any chance of seeing flak fischkutters, wasserschutzpolizei or marine flak abteilungs?
Nope. The game has always limited in scope for small vessels, abstracting their complexity into simple base representation.
My vote is to keep the deuchland as it is a pretty functional ship at a much more economical cost that the Graf Spee.
The graf spee is too fast and too expensive and the truth is I would likely scrap it and build something in the 28Kn range. Its maintenance costs will also be high.
My vote would be scrap Wetting and Graff Spee. Build two more Deuchland class and use the extra budget left to fix your cruisers which i find are the real backbone of fleets.
Interesting. It is true that you can get 3 Deutschland's for the cost of 2 Graf Spee's. And also wouldn't have made the Graf Spee so fast. But the Deutschland's are good 1925 BBs that are already starting to look their age as other navies are starting to introduce fast BBs.
@RvTWargames for Germany over armored battleships are a good thing as the survival of your ships is far more important than sinking other ships. Numbers are key to preventing yourself getting blockaded.
I actually tend to build 14 and 15" gun ships over 16" as the rate of fire increase is significant. High rate of fire is excellent for doing crippling damage even if you dont sink tge enemy. Ironically all or nothing armor makes the smaller guns much more useful as the crippling damage is easier to inflict. Ships pummeled by 14" guns are easy pickings for destroyers as they tend to be very slow and denuded of their secondaries.
I also like 14" guns a lot more against cruisers.
I also tend to armor against my enemies guns not the ones I mount on my ships.
Certainly the King George V class didn't seem to suffer for having 14in guns and excellent armour. While the Vanguard was still competitive with the excellent British 15in guns.
@RvTWargames I find gun quality huge if you have a gun that is one level ahead of the rest it is worth at least 2" in calibre.
Sadly the big German guns: 15 and 14in are only quality 0. The 16in gun for the Graf Spee is Japanese (not sure of its quality). 12 and 11in are quality 1, but obviously too small for 1935.
GREAT SEREIS!!!
Thanks Carl. Episode 2 just being edited.
I'd keep Deutchland in original config for couple years for at least counterblocade tonnage. It has great armour and probably could defeat anything brits throw at it 1vs1.
You are not wrong that the Deutschland is a viable warship in 1935. It is better than the majority of battleships in the world's fleets. If it were already in service, I'd be happy to have it, and possibly rebuild it a little later to increase its speed. But I don't want it dragging down the speed of my fleet down to 24kn. It could end up like SMS Blücher in World War 1 being left behind if I need to retreat.
I love Germany. It is hard but I find I tend to have better ships.
It is proving a balancing act, rebuilding a navy almost from scratch, managing your money, trying to hold back the rush to war until you're ready.
Just found this video. Your decision of BB over CVL is correct, but for the wrong reason. As Germany in 1935 most battles will be in the Baltic or North Atlantic where you should have land based air cover thus a CV is mute. This is why WWII Britain started with so few CVs.
I beg to differ. The Royal Navy in September 1939 had more operational carriers than any over leading navy plus a set of new highly suriviable fleet carriers building at a rate of 2 a year.
CVs are always vital as you have no control whatsoever over land-based year. Land-based air is very rarely decisive. CV based air often is.
Zepplins? Sign me up!
I enjoy the kriegsmarine board meeting
I have an annual review too, just to mark the progress of things on all fronts: finance, relationships, builds, research, etc.
Rewatching
Those “new” battleships are truly awful. In opting to give you Germany I think I most people expected you to play with a small modern fleet. So turn Wettin & Deutschland into razor blades and get on with building some ships that Germany can be proud of.
IF they'd just been in service, I would have accepted them and made the best of them - probably rebuilding the Wettin to the same speed as Deutschland and running the pair as a mini battle fleet, while building up the 'scouting force' of fast BBs and BCs. But to have to pay good money into building them just seems like I've got better things to do with my money.
If you intend to have any role play aspirations for this series at all, there is no way any role play political leadership would allow you to scrap your building ships while having that skeleton navy...
Making that gamey min-maxing choice of scrapping those inferior ships at this time kind of throws off the whole vibe.
You would not be playing "Secretary of the Navy of Germany without treaty restrictions in 1935", but instead "Time Traveler ruling arbitrary clean slate entitiy xyz in Northern Sea Zone in 1935".
That is totally fine, but a specific choice non the less, which however is at odds with your role play "balanced fleet composition" discussions.
Full role playing choice:
Keep and upgrade Wettin to 24kn Oil firing & 5inch DP secondaries for ~30k
Keep the other building ships, later on potentially upgrade Deutschland for speed
Have older ships in the Baltic
Semi role play/min-max choice:
Scrap Wettin
Keep the other building ships, later on potentially upgrade Deutschland for speed
Full min-maxing & exploit missing political controls for building ships:
Scrap both building BBs
Good points. My counter would be, most of these legacy ships make no sense what do ever. Who would commission a 1915 battleship and a 1925 battleship in 1935? Not to mention most of the cruisers are completely illegal designs that should never be able to be built.
If the battleships were already part of the fleet, that would be different. I would do the best that I could do with them. But to continue to build one obsolescent ship and one obsolete one doesn't make sense in 1935.
So I don't regard it as min-maxing, which I'm not particularly interested in, but rather keeping it real for 1935.
@@RvTWargames Makes sense, I guess it is also a problem with game limitations and odd design decisions.
Like the US did with the Lexington, the player should be able to convert already building ships instead of having to finish them as is and then having to start the rebuild afterwards.
Nonetheless imho there should be some balance here.
I understand scrapping the Wettin for the reason you pointed out, but imho scrapping the Deutschland goes a bit too far towards cherry picking the start.
It is an ok ship to have around in 1936, when all the other nations should have Washington Naval Treaty designs around as well. And Germany just awaking from the capital ship building hiatus as well.
You are right about the inability to rebuild a ship that is under construction (with some appropriate penalty in terms of extra time and cost).
As for the Deutschland, if it was in service, I would be fine to have it. And I would probably be happy to pay the cost of modernising it with new engines to bring it up to adequate speed. It is better than many battleships in the other navies, and of course, the real-life Nelson and Rodney did great service in the first half of World War 2, though after 1943 they were second rate battleships after the King George V entered service in enough numbers.
But if I completed the Deutschland, it would distort my whole navy as the only slow ship in the fleet. At best this would be a drag on the rest of the fleet and at worst it would consign it to the fate of SMS Blücher at Dogger Bank, being too slow to make its escape with the rest of Hipper's scouting group.
for as well its a scrap the deutschland series
Scrapping seems the way forward!
Yay, München!
Of course there is a München
can you win the entire campaign just spamming submarine
Sure, but winning the game isn't the point.
I'm not sure if that's still true in RtW3.
Get building some more UBoats
Perhaps it war with a great naval power looms. Against USSR, no. Against France, it depends on when my new battle line will be ready.
Your BB vs CVL analysis is deeply flawed.
1) Assuming your throw weights are correct you do not account for how much the surface fleet will lose in ships and firepower from being attacked. With 125 kn distance any CVL commander worth their weight should get in multiple attacks on your surface vessels while your surface fleet does 0.
2) Unless the CVL commander is an idiot or you surface fleet is 10+ KN faster the surface fleet throw weight does not matter. A shell not fired is equal to 0. The CVL(s) will not stay and allow yoiu to close distance with them. Even if you have the 10+ speed advantage you are talking about a closing time of 12+ hours by which time it will be near dark and unless you have radar, the CVL will have a good chance of disappearing in the night.
1. 125kn = about 6 hour sailing. A carrier force should be able to get in two attack, possibly three, assuming a) they've been fine b) the weather is fine and c) the time of day is monring.
2. It is true that carriers can run away (as any surface ship can). But that might not be what the scenario requires (eg, doing invasions, protecting convoys, raiding the coast). And yes, in a couple of years in the 1935 start, radar will be a thing.