I came back only for M+. and boy have i enjoyed it more, I was a CE raider every tier but could not commit to the time to raid anymore and had to quit. Havent played wow since killing sylvannas and I came back because of the freedom i have with just doing M+. Oh i have 2 hrs to spare, lets do some keys, after 1 key oh nvm i have to go do errands, I can just leave and dont have to burden 19 other ppl. Oh i dont have to raid to get gear perfect ill set goals for myself for IO and go from there. Its awesome. Enjoying wow more now that I have the freedom to play when i want not when I have to raid. Felt like a job instead of a game. And THDs take is only because he gets paid to raid, and its his job.
same. if it wasnt for M+, the game would be dead. i despise raiding and tilt at the fact that my bis trinkets are usually from the raid. tack on a legendary that takes 15 weeks to farm...hooray
I bought shadowlands and levelled up and did some heroic dungeons, torghast, bgs, etc, but other than that like 20-30 hours, I have not played since wotlk. Wotlk made me quit, and wotlk classic made me quit classic. I do not enjoy the retail game where the world is fundamentally just a lobby for the actual content that is all instanced into bite size chunks...... except for m+. I am currently reinstalling and planning to prepurchase war within just because m+ is a minigame/game mode/whatever you want to call it that looks interesting to me. Could not give less of a fuck about mythic raids and world first raiders takes on shit, when every 'mechanic' is just a version of dont stand in the bad, stand in the good, the original joke mechanic of wow.
M+ is why i can have fun in the game with friends and get gear. If mythic raiding was doable as a 10 man im sure more people would try it. 20+ man raiding is pure cancer
Who gives a fuck about what this 2nd placer thinks lmao. Like mythic raiding is so special. They get a 12 hour advantage and still lose. His opinion doesnt matter
THD doesn't just only care about mythic raiding above anything else -- he only cares about mythic raiding in the context of the completely bastardised version of it performed to prop up the completely forced "esport" that is the RTWF. The cognitive dissonance you'd need to complain about M+ "ruining" raid gearing when you yourself engage in stuff like loot funnelling and other degenerate practises (whose trickle-down effect brought about personal loot being forced on us all for years) is astounding. He would rather everyone else's gearing progression, not just M+ only players, be 10 times worse just so Liquid and Echo can have their made up competition require less effort.
I think we are officially at that phase of the expansion where there isn't much to do ingame and people fabricate things to complain about without accurately recollecting how the tier actually went. This tier was pretty baller. I crushed 8 keys every week (sometimes on multiple characters) and benefitted from heroic clears all the way up the end of February. Frankly: it irks me, as a casual raider with a full time job, to hear THD -- a guy who had his ORGANIZATION drop millions of gold for him to get BOE's upon BOE's -- complain that I'm the one getting too much gear too quickly.
Don't get me wrong, THD has a lot of stupid takes and this is definitely one of them, but it is absolutely undeniable how m+ wreaks havoc on the raid gear progression curve. I'm raiding at wr1k and was basically done with meaningful *mythic* gear before we killed Smolderon. I'm wearing 2 Items I looted in raid rn, I just got 4 minor upgrades from the m+ vault and a few sockets since early January. Basically after our new-year raid, there was only 1 major upgrade left for me in raid, that one being at Tindral; and 3 minor ilvl ones from Fyrrak, Nymue, and Igara respectively. There is no reason to reclear once you kill the mid-tier wall, because any gear that you get will not help you. That is in part due to boss design, but mainly because m+ annihilates the raid gear progression curve (which can be seen as good, because bosses are so hard, that you don't have time to reclear every week during progression). How was heroic gear still an upgrade for you that late? Assuming you do +20s and maybe raid mythic, was your guild just giga unlucky?
@@Opharg And why is that a bad thing? Do you want to spend more time in the raid repeatedly killing bosses to get your gear and help gear others? You have to view gearing through Mythic+ as upfront work so that you can dedicate more time to raid progress
Only solution is to give m+ and raid gear the pvp treatment. Give m+ ilvl penalty in raid and raid gear ilvl penalty in m+. Then everyone can just play what they want. Won't happen though.
10 man mythic would be nice to see. Wouldn't even be opposed to them trying 5 man support for Normal/Heroic raids, 5 man content is clearly the healthiest PvE aspect of the game
ofc the person who gets funneled gear and gets almost capped gearwise in the first week of the patch is bitching about people reaching the same ilvl 2 months into the season its mindblowing how disconnected and out of touch some of the guys on the high end are holy shit
@@RiptorrZ we are 3 months into the season, what are you talking about right now you can get 485 with any toon as soon as you hit level cap with sparks lol
@@RiptorrZ good? if u play this game only to gear ur a literal rat on a fucking wheel. is just means to an end to do the content u want. if u dont actually enjoy doing content. why are u playing this game
@@RiptorrZ That's just literally not possible unless you were clearing Mythic and got funneled every piece of gear that you needed on both characters. Hero track gear caps out at 483, and you need to spend 30 Aspect Crests to get it from 476 to 483. Now, I don't remember exactly, but I think that by week 3 you would have 3 sparks, so that's a potential for 3 486 items, costing 180 Crests. That's 180 out of the 270 you will have gotten in those three weeks btw. So honestly, not only will gear be a big issue, but also crests for upgrades. For additional context, the highest recorded ilvl for the kill of Fyrakk between both Echo and Liquid was 482, which was late-ish in week 2. They could quite possibly have gotten to 485 the next week, but no way in hell anyone below top 100 world would be anywhere close to 485 in week 3.
the crest system has made the game and progression much more enjoyable to me and my group of friends. we only play M+ and reach about 22-25 level keys depending on the season.
THD talks about it from his POV. Of course you would want the best gear be in Mythic Raiding since thats what you do all day and you have a whole team who is getting paid to do it. He needs to stop talking for us.
M+ should be it's own thing, I don't' care about raiding but I feel like I have to to get Fyrak trinkets etc to push keys. I have the exact opposite problem, top gear from raiding is toxic, make m+ gear/sets like they did with pvp gear. Make it scale higher for m+, give some really cool M+ only trinkets/BETTER MOUNTS/REWARDS. I don't want to raid it's boring.
As someone who has come back after not playing since the release of the original Cata and was a pretty hardcore raider in WOTLK, the current gearing system is a massive improvement, especially for those who don't have the time or a consistent schedule to be able to learn and prog mythic raid, the casualisation of being able to jump on with friends and do decently hard content and be able to get endgame gear is the only reason I came back to the game.
Ima keep it real. If they changed the gearing system to further screw M+... id straight up unsub --- Because dealing with Mythic guild drama is TURBO aids and M+ has been such a fun time with my friends
Mythic guild drama has gotten so much worse, first tier in three expansions I won't get CE, the egos and power trips, it used to be fun and social, now it's weird and autistic. Mplus with a few friends is the only fun social thing left in this game
I don't enjoy raiding anymore. It's alot easier to find 4 other decent players to do M+ with, than to find 19 more for doing M raid. But the fact is that every exp. i have to do Raid for trinkets. Trinkets in raid are always the better option , even for an M+ only player. The vault system is terrible though. Since season start i've only gotten 5x 489 items in the vault. All my raiding didn't give me the Pip's trinket thats bis for me either. The whole system needs some changes for sure.
You're never guaranteed a Mythic track item that you need in the vault either I have had to take sockets the last three weeks and only have 4 Mythic track items on my char
@@Tettles remember Bfa? Without the raids it was impossible to get 3x blaster master as fire mage or the bloodsoaked urchin as monk/warrior tank. I have been forced to raid in order to be decently geared in m+. They should just make gear independent or give me a better chance of targeting gear when I do m+. There are still some things from the raid that basically force you to do this content. When you have bad luck with the weekly chest it's gg. In bfa I had 6 characters that all grinded m+ and I played the one most who got lucky in the chest. Forcing myself through pug raids and 7 guild disbands was horrible. Same with 9.0 where I had a ton of friends and guildmates quit. I came back to the game and finally the gearing as m+ player feels alright. I would love to be able to upgrade the few raid drops I have or some specific m+ hero ilevel items to mythic track. If the top 1000 players compete for ranking that's their issue but the vast amount of people I meet in the game enjoy m+ a lot more and at a certain level you just need the gear.
@@Tettles My friend got a Hero track weapon on his Warrior in the first couple of weeks of the patch, and only got an upgrade to it a few weeks ago, when he got the leggo axe. He's had 3 Myth track slots in his vault every week. He sits at 3659 rio, but because we don't have a big enough guild to raid Mythic, he has no real way of going for an upgrade other than praying to the Vault gods. Meanwhile I got Myth track Gorehowl on my warrior alt in the first vault I opened on it. All I'm trying to say is, whoever says the vault is fair haven't actually played properly.
M+ gear system is fantastic, no reason some sweaty raider should be the only person to get gear. If anything, for gear progression, raid gear should not work in M+
Yeah make it completely unusable please. I'm tired of having to raid for his trinkets and such. Even know I can do hard keys that are individually more challenging than a lot of the mythic bosses but I can't upgrade my gear with it. I want full bis gear from m+. If those raiders dislike m+ they don't need to do it but I also don't need to deal with mythic guilds that always disband. My current guild stopped raiding again because the roster is unstable. I did not even do the raids except for a few fun heroic raids. 8th guild since Bfa that stopped raiding mythic. What stayed are people in my friendslist that I play m+ with
@@alexanderh2715 How do you want to upgrade your gear if you only raid? With the hundred crests u get from each run? Yeah no thank you. Early in the season you are forced to run M+ in order to be able to keep up with people that do both. So in your opinion raiders who dislike M+ should just go fuck themselves and don't upgrade their gear?
Have the gear the same but no loot from mythic raid. If you kill a boss it adds to the great vault at mythic ilvl. That way it’s the same as M+. That would also fix the lack of progression in mythic raiding. Each week the teams ilvl will increase from the vault in effect nerfing the raid
Hard to take someone's opinion who lives in there moms basement seriously when they think everyone should have to spend hundreds of hours in mythic to get to end gear. Most of us have to work and support ourselves.
"everyone should have to spend hundreds of hours in mythic to get to end gear". Why shouldn't that be the case? "Most of us have to work and support ourselves." So what? Why shouldn't more time spent in game reward you more? Actually think about why does better gear even matter in the first place. If you have a real life why do you care about being able to complete a +28 vs a +18, or clearing a mythic raid vs just the LFR version. The content is the same regardless of difficulty.
@@bkdarkness ok, so first of all, the content changes based off of the difficulty so youre definitely wrong there. a majority of people who play this game have lives outside of WoW, so if you cater to the minority of individuals who dont support themselves IRL because of their mommies, your customer satisfaction WILL drop, fact. if im getting declined from a 29 because im 3-5 ILs lower than some basement dwelling Mythic Raider who spends more time playing the game each day than i spend working, its also not a good look for the community. im good enough to compete at their level, i just dont have 12 hours per day to put toward the game so that should exclude me? just because you put in more time doesnt necessarily mean you are better at something, *NOR* should it immediately exclude someone else who hasnt put in as much time so long as they have the work to show for it. some people are just naturally better at certain things and, no matter how hard someone else may try, no matter the years of experience, they may never make it to that level. some people are just built differently. who wants to do LFR content for fun, really? unless you find it challenging, i cant understand how you would find it engaging and/or fun.
@@bkdarkness i did. i answered both of your questions, actually. but ill answer them again, just so you know what youre reading. anyone can do anything for as long as they like, it doesnt necessarily mean that they will be good at it. just because someone spends 60 hours per week playing the game doesnt necessarily mean they are better than the guy who only plays 15-20 hours per week, so why exclude the better player? just because they dont have as much time to play the game? thats silly. thats like hiring someone who has 25 years of experience but mediocre reviews and does a mediocre job instead of the guy with 10 years of experience who does a phenomenal job. experience helps and should always be considered, but its not everything. you make it sound like the person with more skill should be limited because of the person with more experience, and thats not a good formula for anything. some people are smarter and better and, from my experience, thats just how it is. no amount of training or learning can close that gap.
Raiding guilds are disbanding because mythic raiding is way too restrictive and outdated. If the raid size/lockout system didn't exclude 99% of the player base, then maybe you'd see a lot more people going for it. Also, why is it that other 1% think they're a bunch of special snowflakes entitled to special treatment?
@@Zulej112 At the start of the season they're even harder, made especially for organized groups like Echo and Liquid which is less than 1% of the playerbase!
I quit Mythic/CE raiding when I came back after a year or so break of the game. And I am so much happier doing just m+ with friends. Not hitting the stupid high keys but mainly 25s (with a 26 or two thrown in). And being able to hit those levels of keys without (to me) wasting 12 hours a week raiding is so nice!
Mythic raiding should be 10 man at this point to make it more accessible. I think Mythic being gated to 20 man makes it harder for more people to do it and makes M+ the better solution for most players.
true so many people played pvp because it was easily accessible. do 10m mythic and remove the lockout bullshit and do cross realm. lot more would play the content. but these brain dead elitism players think they are superior
It would just kill Mythic raiding. It wouldn't fix anything, you'd just move the issue at heroic gear vs Mythic+ gear, instead of Mythic. The problem isn't that Mythic raiding exists, the problem is that several game types overlap. And where they overlap, it creates problems. And it will keep creating problems.
@@CrisalphaIf the only reason people raid is for gear than maybe they should change mythic raiding to be enjoyable, keeping raid alive by forcing people who enjoy M+ and PvP to do it is not a good solution, high end M+ has no gear incentive and people still do it for fun and a single title.
Increasing the ilvl difference between patches made season 3 feel soooo much better overall. It felt good to feel like you're really increasing in power when you got a new piece. The only people who don't like that are the people who force themselves into an annoying game loop because they're in the top tier guilds who NEED to do that to be competitive. For the vast majority of players, it was awesome. I'm not amazing at the game. I got to ~3200 io this season on a couple different characters. I only did the first 3 bosses on Mythic. Overall, I would say this season has been a success. Increasing ilvl between patches feels great.
Well, it is M+ that is keeping me in the game and occasionally do quests, which are still fun to a degree. If I was solely stuck to doing raids to gear up, and with guilds not holding steady, would wreck the game for me and I would imagine a ton of other players. It is too difficult to maintain a 20 man raid that is cohesive among casual players that have a chance to push higher in CE progression. Anyone can just PUG in Heroic raids, not a problem, IMHO but getting gear there is more difficult as there is far less funneling. For me it took just over two months to go from say 440ish to 468 with my time allocated to play. If in a progression raid team with splits and funneling, would take a week or two. I did like having legendary items that you work hard to upgrade individually, Blizz should bring that system back. Professions should be able to craft 90% of items in game, IMHO.
Boy I've stopped playing because the only thing M+ gives is 1 myth gear per week and I'm about maxed - gear progression has stopped. Instances prove no challenge unless I go above 22 or so, which is POINTLESS because all I get for playing above +18 is extra difficulty. I don't need that, it's getting exponentially stressful for zero extra reward except for the pointless RIO score. If the vault didn't reward myth gear I would have stopped playing so much sooner. If anything, general m+ difficulty (as in TUNING) should increase greatly so it's not trivial to farm the difficulty level that yields the maximum gear upgrade level. With the current tuning, M+ is too easy to max out and then we max out our gear, get bored and unmotivated in ~2-3 months into the season.
I would love for a deterministic function to be added to the vault where you get a charge similar to catalyst like maybe every other week or something that blocked a gear slot of your choice from appearing in the vault. It wouldn’t let you guarantee anything but for each charge you acquire and block a slot where you already have your mythic track piece, you increase your odds of at least getting the slot you need most.
I also primarily M+ and also think the last 2 seasons have been great for loot. One of my ideas: I've been asking for a shorter than 1 week lock out on raids for a while now. How about remove the loot lockouts on heroic and lower raid difficulties and set mythic lockouts to 1-3 days reset.
Yeah same. At certain points you just get one-shot without the gear. M+ gearing could even be a bit more targeted and there should be something to upgrade heroic level gear. The current system just needs some additions. I like doing the heroic raid because it can be done in a bit of time with friends without a heavy raiding schedule like mythic raiding needs to have. People clearly like m+ more than raids. People like Thd are just delusional and don't understand which type of player keeps this game alive. It's certainly not the few mythic raiders
First of all, great video. I pretty much agree with all the points you made. Either content being absolutely mandatory for people that only prefer one or the other is bad in both directions. Unrelated, but the quick chapstick application at 9:22 was the purest unintentional comedy gold.
I wish The Vault had a more deterministic gearing approach in the form of a currency. Tier 1: Earn 1/3 of the weekly currency, Tier 2: 2/3, Tier 3: Max currency for the week in the respective gameplay event. 3x your inflows by participating in all the Vault categories. Keep PvP and PvE currencies separate OR just make it all one currency and get whatever you want. Drop a vendor next to The Vault a few weeks into the season. Establish the economics and make it so that a player isn't being flooded with gear until late in the season as a catchup mechanic. It's rough sometimes when that BiS trinket just wont drop but it completely boosts your class, same with tier gear and weapons. I'm a filthy casual nowadays, however I would play more if we had a more deterministic system. Imo, its just more fun working towards something.
I think the ideal solution to m+ gear is to find the sweet spot between making it hard to completely gear out and making it reasonable to get a targeted piece of loot. It’s currently too easy to get a lot of gear but when you’re just looking for one specific thing it can be abysmal. Dinar system could help but I think a system where you gain points or a currency for a dungeon to spend solely within that dungeon could work
All I want is some sort of token to upgrade a piece of gear to a higher upgrade track, e.g. hero to myth. This would also make it feasible to get bis raid gear through pugging heroic.
The only problem i find with the current gearing system is that as a player capable of constantly clearing 20+ keys with a limited time to play weekly...i had to go back to +11 -> +15 keys for wyrm crests to upgrade my gear in order to reach the ilvl required to use aspect crests...that was sick...instead of all dungeons above 16 or 18 or whatever should drop items with minimum ilvl from which you can strait away use aspect crests.
I don't have a problem with 486 crafted gear. It's timegated behind Sparks and skill-gated behind resources that only drop in the highest content. You need 60 aspect crests which require multiple 16+ keys. Although, this season, 16s were not difficult. I would be fine moving aspects to 18+.
As a Mythic raider who came back to DF from WoD, I feel there can be some improvements to M+: To me, there are no benefits to run keys higher than 20 unless you're bleeding edge and shooting for the title. The loot grind ends fairly quick as you're gate-kept behind crests to upgrade gear at the beginning, and now the gear that drops is worthless. What if the extra loot drop chance from completing a key over 20 was myth track? At that point a 25 would guarantee a myth track piece from the dungeon, which can provide incentives to run keys at a high level and more chances for loot outside of the great vault. What if they added additional transmog/mounts/titles for completing all keys at a certain level? Say a mount for completing all 25s on Tyrannical and/or a title for completing all 24s on Fortified. IMO, raiding has more incentive to participate than M+; Unique mounts that drop from bosses, an achievement mount, and titles for killing Mythic bosses are all better incentives than portals and sparkly shoulders. That is not touching the fact that gear from raid is likely BIS even for M+, and M+ players are stuck hoping the great vault drops Myth track gear, as outside of raid that is their only source. I am curious as to your thoughts on the above.
The thing I don't understand about these old diehard fans: Why don't they just play classic instead of attempting to ruin retail for everyone? Every time they comment it's "remove this, bring back that" only constant negativity with zero constructive feedback. Retail needs to address a new generation of gamers and employ major innovations. But that's not possible with the toxic core of the playerbase boycotting anything fun.
How about this. In addition to the vault, every week you get a quest. The quest is to either kill 3 mythic raid bosses, or do 5 m+10 or higher(season 4 system) dungeons (you can only do one or the other, not both) The reward would be a random raid item of ilvl equal to what drops from the lowest of your highest 3 boss kills , or for mplus a Item that would have been a vault reward for the lowest of the 5 highest dungeons that you did. Essentially it would be a second vault item for those pushing high end content.
Just the fact that I can’t get into a decent CE guild due to lack of “previous CE” but I can pug 27s in m+ says enough about mythic raid for me. I can’t get gear from mythic raid besides whatever is pugable as opposed to being able to actually consistently gear from m+
Now that we can automatically get lower tier crests when we hit the caps on higher tier crests, I am personally in for tweaking the weekly cap on crests to slow down the myth ilvl progresions from M+… maybe 60 Aspects and 90 Wyrms cap per week. I may even be fine for them to reduce the ilvl cap on Heroic track gear from 483 down to 480 provided that we have a more consistent way of obtaining myth track gears, for example adding purchasvle with 6x tokens: pray to the RNG god and reroll your entire Vault for the week. purchasable with 12x tokens: OKAY you’ve had bad luck, now go upgrade one of your gear by one progression track. Maybe you’ll get myth track gear on all slots like a myth raider, eventually! Only 15 weeks slower!
I think that M+, Raiding, PVP, and open world content should all run in their own silos, where gear from each silo is only optimized for the content in that silo. Yes, that means that people might end up with 2-4 sets of gear, but creating incentives where people feel like they have to gear up in one silo in order to be competitive in another silo create so much acrimony.
the easiest way would be to go the pvp route for pve in general. Easy and fast to farm base gear (honor) and weekly gated upgrades. 1. You will eventually get every item you want. No more hoping to get one specific item from vault or drop at all (Think there were some ppl even in high end raiding missing Proc Rings after Vault or that one trinket) 2. Blizzard can tune encounters to a specific gear-level that EVERYONE can easily achieve. 3. Even the race to world first peeps can be happy because you invest a few hours into getting base gear and are capped on upgrading it - no more splits. 4. The absurdity currently going on in PUGs of rolling Need on Items only intending to sell them to the highest bidder (hello fyrakk trinkets) would be gone The only thing separating m+ Vault from Lootboxes at this point is you're not paying money but time invested for your vault.. Only issue with such a system change would be that it's a drastic change and I won't fool myself into thinking that people won't have an issue with Bosses/dungeons not dropping gear. There might be a middle ground but that will most certainly make splits even worse :D /end rant
gearing has felt great for me so far this expansion, especially 10.2. Some of the most fun i've had playing wow in terms of content difficulty, diversity and gear acquisition.
I think that you should be able to upgrade a track of an item with 12 aspect tokens of merit. Probably doesn't help the speed of acqusition of myth track gear but it would improve the system
Crafted gear being available near max ilvl is great, as it basically serves as a bad luck protection system and it isn't just from crafting as you still need to do the content at an appropriate level to get this gear. The key level that drops aspect crests might be too low, but that's a different discussion. Imo heroic raid gear should be about on par with max m+ gear for raiding and raid gear other than trinkets or other special items should be worse than m+ gear for dungeons. The exact way of implementing this wouldn't really matter. This way vault would only matter for getting the BiS dungeon trinket for raiding or maybe have increased tertiary chance to make it still matter.
Honestly I think the best option is to remove Mythic raid gear and make Mythic raiding reward cosmetics only. If you want the achievement of completing the mythic raid then you can get that without the need to lock gear behind it and the same with high end M+. You have the opportunity to get the same max level gear between raiding or M+ (so current heroic tier) and you earn a currency (like conquest points or valour tokens with a weekly cap that increases each week) for doing either type of content. You can then buy the Mythic level gear items from a vendor with this currency and its not random you just buy the item you want. You would then be able to farm your BiS gear over a know period of time that would allow for a predictable increase in character power. You could even build a crafting system into it that would allow you to by an item but apply a Missive to set its stats. You could also convert the catalyst to simply apply the set bonus to an item. That way you would be able to plan what items you buy and when to get your set at the mythic gear level.
What about bringing back the old raid quests but add in a m+ route of fulfilling it as well. I also could get behind getting a myth track cache from completing a 25 or something each week
I soewhat agree with what he's saying. That part being - most people don't play because they enjoy playing, but to GET things. Whatever those things are. Gear. Mounts. Pets. Get, get, get, buy if you can, just check it off the list.
Sorry for the long post but this is actually one of my big frustrations for the game. As someone who primarily wants to raid, M+ hasn't been a boon but rather a chore akin to AP Grinds of previous expansions. I am not saying I just want to raid log but asking people endlessly farm M+ week 1 just to raid burns them out real fast from M+. As for solutions I will somewhat distill the 2 options down: 1) Make heroic farmable - This will incentivize guild all up and down the CE ladder to endlessly spend week 1 & 2 and maybe 3 just grinding heroic and not even going into mythic. WF raiders could skip M+ this way but the rest of us wills till have to do M+ when 10 guild members aren't on. Objectively worse imo. 2) Nerf M+ drops/Loot lockout M+ - This will just push people not do M+ outside of their raid team. Just like members save their heroic lockout for raid night we would now save M+ lockouts for raid teams too. Now this means we cant play with friends you dont raid with. Real solution: Give it the PVP treatment. Completely split raid and M+ gearing so that you essentially get Normal quality loot but it scales higher in its respective content by 13-26 ilvl. At that point unless something is really broken, like mage mechagon wrists, there would be no reason for raiders to feel like they need to M+ and same form M+ers needing to raid. If we still have crests for upgrades then make locked to content you got it from. Does this solution reduce the number of people doing M+ and raid? For sure but the people doing it will be doing it because they want to not because they have to so they are competitive in what they actually want to do.
I think they've had the solution since BFA, and they made it themselves. Been saying since back then that the reward structure they used for visions is perfect for M+ and solves the issue of letting M+ players get mythic raid ilvl gear without it being this infinitely farmable thing. Visions had that reward structure with lockout that allowed you to get a piece of loot from each difficulty, with you being able to ramp the difficulty up via masks. I think this system can be molded to fit M+ in a way that removes the infinitely farmable gear while better incentivizing pushing. You add that lockout so its not infinite loot grinding, but you can always get more loot by completing the next key level up in time. This would also allow them to give mythic raid ilvl loot directly from M+ because it wouldn't be infinitely farmable, they'd pick a level where it would start being the reward and then in order to get more you'd need to keep pushing higher and higher levels which imo if you're pushing yourself in the hardest keys and timing the next level up you deserve a shot at another piece and if you're pushing the highest levels that piece should be mythic raid ilvl. There'd still be some things to solve for like being rewarded for lower levels that you've progressed past without pushing people to run them. Can come up with lots of ideas for these issues but I think the general direction of that visions reward structure is a much better solution than the infinite farm we have going on at the moment and then praying for the vault to give you that specific thing you need. I'd also like them to rework the "track" system so that it basically doesn't exist and you can just upgrade items to their limit and make how you're sourcing the crests or whatever upgrade material be the bottleneck. Maybe they keep the loot rng with some bad luck protection and then the pushing key level is more about upgrade materials to boost that loot.
I think allowing gear targetting for M+ would be a massive step for M+ only players cause the rng of the great vault is a major point of disappointment and frustration for them
I think the one change I would make to the M+ vault system is to make the tokens also be able to be used to purchase an item from the pool - even if it takes 12 tokens I'll take it. I havent had a single 489 weapon drop all season and Im just throwing away gear week after week because its the only thing I need and it just wont drop. Meanwhile other guildies playing the same class have the timestrike 489 weapon 3 times now. Im basically nerfed by 5% purely because of RNG and it feels super shitty.
M+ has endless difficulty while M raiding has a set difficulty. M+ needs to give very high ilvl rewards for that reason. The ilvl gear you get from doing M+ alone must be able to carry you into very high keys.
most mythic raiders dont go past weekly 20s but wont invite a 3.6k rio player to their roster because he didnt have time before to get CE thats just really funny to me
It would be rly cool to get gear rewards for pushing high keys. Like a mythic track piece for having done 1 25 on fort and 1 on tyr. Or getting ANY (you choose) dungeon loot on mythic track if you time a 30 on tyr and fort. Having tangible rewards for pushing high keys would be awesome. If you’re doing 30s I think it’s totally fair to just get to choose a piece to be myth track
im sure there's some tweaks that could make this upgrade system better, but as somebody in the +16-20 range, i love it. i get to get a few myth pieces if my vaults are good, and if not, i still can upgrade my hero stuff. i also really like crafting because it gets you decent gear regardless, but to get the higher ilevel, you have to have some kind of sucess in m+ or raid.
The two main issues atm are spammable heroic gear, and the difference between heroic 483 and mythic 489 gear being so small 1. Allow myth track to go to 6/6 (496 il) -> this means we'll get ~7% stronger over the course of an extra month of crest farming - way better than actively nerfing raid bosses which has been a bigger issue this xpac (still not as op as we got from concordance or corruption over the course of the final tiers of legion/bfa but to the same effect) 2. Dinar system for m+ -> say, every 4 m+16 you get a dinar up to 2 or 3 a week (point being: not infinitely spammable and avoids the "i got a cloak but the other guy got a weapon so im benched now") 3. Bring back the final 2 mythic bosses giving even higher level loot (il 499, non upgradable), arguably maybe even +30s having 2-3 pieces you could get at this item level (same as raid, usually you can equip maybe 2 or 3 of these better pieces + 2 more from m+30), not gamebreaking but gives a small "feels good" boost to exceptional people who have cleared all the content at the highest level the forum post you briefly mentioned has a lot of great points too tho i dont agree with all of them (please dont give me two raids to progress at the same time, but do bring back 1-3 boss raids close to the end of the tier a la crucible of storms) this is coming from a 2 day raider who (literally) just got CE, has 3400rio and 2k solo shuffle
Remove mythic gear from the game. Mythic raiding is now for prestige, and can be tuned to a known and expected gear level, normalizing damage profiles and allowing systems like the ICC buff to passively nurf the raid over time. This would also help with ilvl inflation between tiers. Add back in reroll tokens that can be used at end of dungeon and raid to allow “target farming” that specific instance/boss and the vault can remain random.
The take here that it's easier to get mythic track gear early on is only true for very skilled players who start to clear the first 3-4 bosses mythic within the first couple of weeks. Any team that isn't clearing mythic for the first months, will have at least 12 mythic vault items to choose from and 4 pieces overall. Furthermore you'll get access to mythic level crafted gear much earlier to due farming 15+ dungeons. If after a month you're clearing 3-6 bosses for the two vault items you're better raiding for sure, because you also get the boss drops plus vault. The solution is clear though. M+ drops should not be as powerful as mythic raid gear in a raid and vice versa. Make them the same ilevel in the open world, but treat them like pvp gear. Or put a cap on end of dungeon rewards.
So this essentially isn't a gearing issue, it's a blizzard not tuning mythic raiding properly just to artificially draw out the tiers longer. Edit: Also maybe we should actually touch on the issue of how many people realistically are pushing the 17's+ consistently early on, for most players getting to "farmable" heroic gear in M+ is progression and heroic tier raiding or higher challenging content depending on whether or not you're depending on pugs.
If you didn’t get gear from M+ I’d have no gear. My resto shaman for 1 drop from raid. I quit raiding a few weeks ago though as it got a bit serious at last two bosses.
As someone who hasn't quit WoW during an expansion for maybe the first time since WotLK, the upgrade system is banger. Weekly vault in its current form needs work.
Friend of mine was raidlogging and was fully decked out in set and as close to bis as he could given his guilds progress before I had my 2set. It started evening out just a week ago, maybe 2.
They should make mythic raid hard impossible content for the fun of RWF and to stagger gearing, but only in the first couple of weeks, then tone it down hard so that people can progress and effectively farm loot from raid. Spending months to clear a raid and get one or two pieces of good loot out of it just makes it feel not worth the time, that could have been better spent filling the eight M+ vault slots with +18s, which are a joke compaired even to the first boss of the raid. The question I get from my raiders often is "why even bother spending all this gold and time just for an achievement?"
M+ shouldn't give mythic level gear, raid gear should be the best gear and gear should be linear. Bring back currency for gear so it is no longer rng based. Get rid of the Catalyst system. You shouldn't be able to do a dungeon get a mythic track vault item and turn it into mythic raid tier. why raid?
I gave up on mythic raiding ages ago (end of Legion I think) and couldn't be happier about it. Overall trend seems to suggest the playerbase is largely giving up on it as well. Blizzard's greed with server x-fers and realm locking it for years is one big factor. Another is the 20 man hard lock and roster issues. Another (especially last couple xpacs) has just been it's insane difficulty followed by a shower of nerfs during a season. As far as trade-offs go, a mythic raider ends up closer to max level cap faster, and (usually) has better trinkets than what is available to M+. The M+ player (via the vault) can creep up to the item level cap, and probably has to either use lower iLvl trinkets or M+ alternatives (usually not as good, but not always).
I think delaying gearing or introducing some type of upgrades that buff you later in the tier would help the whole brick wall thing happening on the last bosses. Later into the tier we should be able to do a lot more damage than the world first guilds. Id also like to see mythic raids difficulty spread out over lots of bosses. Keep the first 2 or 3 as easy but there should be multiple rashok's or smolderon level bosses and a hard final boss instead of a single challenging boss then a ridiculously impossible boss. Instead of 400 wipes to 2 bosses, make it 100 wipes to 8 bosses. Just my take, it would help burnout imo
I absolutely adore the current gear system. Getting to 90% power really fast has me playing 4alts. Historically, I've always been a 1 character andy but the ability to actually role something and be playing it for real without a month of edging as I farm ap and gear is so good.
I've played more this xpac than any in my history of playing since cata. Being able to play the game is good for retail players cuz retail is a gameplay focused experience not a social rpg experience.
My humble point of view in this discussion. ( not that anyone cares ) I'm a simple player, that have to work 5 days a week, and I'm also taking an MBA which takes time because of classes. Due to that the amount of time that I have to play is limited, and I can't take part in any guild cores that have a fixed raiding schedule, because of this I can't even run Heroic raids, just did some normal ones in pugs. The only time that I have to play, I opt for m+ content, which is shorter, and if I can squeeze some m+ during the day it is good enough for me. To join groups of m+ I'm gated by my item level and my m+ score, which is not a bad thing IMHO, because I need to get experience to do higher keys. TBH I would love to get myth track gear in m+ content, but I understand that they don't give us this to make us run mythic raids, so every week I try to run at least one key where I will have the chance to get one myth track item from vault. Gearing in this game is not so easy for us casuals. I think that is not easy for RWF players too, or else they would not do the amount of splits they do on the race.
I feel like 1x myth piece from m+ is fine, I think the problem, as the mythic raiding post on the forms talks about, is how fast we are gearing, and the means by which we are doing that. Week 1/2 we are literally just spamming m+ to get full hero gear that's good stats. Giving more than 1 a week will accelerate that, and that's why im hesitant to it. And on top of that, we have to keep in mind that delves are coming. So if we go crazy and accelerate gear more now, then in TWW we are going to be getting gear crazy fast and be full geared in 3 weeks (assuming that delves give more than 1 piece of myth. And if delves only give 1 piece of myth a week I promise you we will be having this conversation again but about delves instead of M+.) Ultimately I think the devs need to figure out a pace on which they want people to gear, and then divide it in half between m+ and raid. Hot take: you have to play the game and do all the content if you want to be the most powerful. I am really sick of this mentality that people are having that they want rewards without doing content. This is another thing I thought of, but I feel like it would set the world in flames. Somehow implement the ILVL boost in specific content like PVP has. So like M+ gear is boosted 10-15 ILVLs in 5man dungeon content, and raid gear has the same in raid instances(ignoring tier pieces, make tier pieces the same base regardless of content). The issue with this though is that it makes a wider gap between the previous season's ILVL and the new season's ILVL. But then people would still have incentives to raid each week because they need the gear from raid to kill the bosses.
I fill my vault every week with 3 chest on myth track in m+. 3 Weeks into season, I took out nothing from vault for 4 weeks, because it was no useful loot. And the last 3 weeks again. So you get in chest rings with wrong stats, mainhands or offhands with wrong stats, wrist, feet, neck, where you have your crafted gear with embelishment or things you already got. this week i finally got a head with leech, which i could turn into set piece. so even you have 3 chest, the likelyhood you get a shitty choice is phenomenal high with my bad luck. and btw. it really sucks to get that fyrrak tank trinket as healer, to likely live in 24+. i find raiding terribly boring. you raid with randoms hc and one lucky b. rolls on everything and goes home with 6 items (and that dude was bis equipped and needed that gear not at all), wheras you simply couldn't get a grip even on a belt.
remove upgrading gear and bring back badge vendors. Let raid and M+ give access to those badges and put a weekly cap on it. I think that was the best system back in the day personally.
You touched on it a little but I think the biggest problem was the ilvl gap between Aberrus and Amirdrassil. I don't think there should ever be a point where at the start of a new tier you can do something like the Dreamsurge and get equivalent/slightly better gear to the previous tier's mythic raid. I don't think incentivizing mythic raiders to do normal difficulty raids is all that important and isn't something the developers should care about. They made the gear from Normal Aberrus the same ilvl as Mythic VotI, why didn't they do the same for Mythic Aberrus to Normal Amirdrassil? Why the 13 ilvl jump from 441 to 454?
wow players when it's hard to gear: wow this sucks i can't get my bis. wow players when it's easy to gear: wow this sucks I got my BIS there's nothing to do. Even for someone like THD who is known for having the actual worst takes, you'd think someone who literally is in an org that pays people to gear them wouldn't pretend to know about the loot system.
THD is correct when it comes to raid gear, but not about killing M+ again. It's pretty normal to raid 3 weeks in a row, and not get a single upgrade. On the flip side you can spam keys and gear in a day. So how do you solve that problem? I think there are a few ways you can do it. I think a dinar system for raid would help significantly. Or you could add a raid specific stat for each tier that makes getting raid pieces feel very good and bis for raiding. TLDR: Raiding feels unrewarding, but M+ isn't the issue.
I play wow for m+ and nothing else, literally....
I came back only for M+. and boy have i enjoyed it more, I was a CE raider every tier but could not commit to the time to raid anymore and had to quit. Havent played wow since killing sylvannas and I came back because of the freedom i have with just doing M+. Oh i have 2 hrs to spare, lets do some keys, after 1 key oh nvm i have to go do errands, I can just leave and dont have to burden 19 other ppl. Oh i dont have to raid to get gear perfect ill set goals for myself for IO and go from there. Its awesome. Enjoying wow more now that I have the freedom to play when i want not when I have to raid. Felt like a job instead of a game. And THDs take is only because he gets paid to raid, and its his job.
same. if it wasnt for M+, the game would be dead. i despise raiding and tilt at the fact that my bis trinkets are usually from the raid. tack on a legendary that takes 15 weeks to farm...hooray
Same, rarely I will pug heroic for a gigabusted trinket and pretend I know what I'm doing
fr lmao ive never ever ever played wow for anything else except levelling and m+
I bought shadowlands and levelled up and did some heroic dungeons, torghast, bgs, etc, but other than that like 20-30 hours, I have not played since wotlk. Wotlk made me quit, and wotlk classic made me quit classic. I do not enjoy the retail game where the world is fundamentally just a lobby for the actual content that is all instanced into bite size chunks...... except for m+. I am currently reinstalling and planning to prepurchase war within just because m+ is a minigame/game mode/whatever you want to call it that looks interesting to me. Could not give less of a fuck about mythic raids and world first raiders takes on shit, when every 'mechanic' is just a version of dont stand in the bad, stand in the good, the original joke mechanic of wow.
M+ is why i can have fun in the game with friends and get gear.
If mythic raiding was doable as a 10 man im sure more people would try it. 20+ man raiding is pure cancer
My best time raiding was 10 man.
10 man will never work. Class diversity would get nuked
@@nulian for real. As much as cata sucked, having 10 man raiding with best gear was Hella peak
Let m+ as is and bring back 10 man raiding.
Thats it, no other changes needed
@@Lipitakke I'm also more than fine with that haha
If devs would follow any of THDs hot takes, the game would be worse for 99.9% of the player base. He only cares about mythic raiding and nothing else.
Based thd
Even Max says that THD's takes are insane and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Who gives a fuck about what this 2nd placer thinks lmao. Like mythic raiding is so special. They get a 12 hour advantage and still lose. His opinion doesnt matter
@@clivezilla05tell us you're an echo fan without telling us you're an echo fan
@@clivezilla05his opinion doesn't matter, no matter what reasoning anyone would come up with. there's literally 0 reasons to listen to these clowns
THD doesn't just only care about mythic raiding above anything else -- he only cares about mythic raiding in the context of the completely bastardised version of it performed to prop up the completely forced "esport" that is the RTWF. The cognitive dissonance you'd need to complain about M+ "ruining" raid gearing when you yourself engage in stuff like loot funnelling and other degenerate practises (whose trickle-down effect brought about personal loot being forced on us all for years) is astounding.
He would rather everyone else's gearing progression, not just M+ only players, be 10 times worse just so Liquid and Echo can have their made up competition require less effort.
I think we are officially at that phase of the expansion where there isn't much to do ingame and people fabricate things to complain about without accurately recollecting how the tier actually went.
This tier was pretty baller. I crushed 8 keys every week (sometimes on multiple characters) and benefitted from heroic clears all the way up the end of February.
Frankly: it irks me, as a casual raider with a full time job, to hear THD -- a guy who had his ORGANIZATION drop millions of gold for him to get BOE's upon BOE's -- complain that I'm the one getting too much gear too quickly.
people have been fabricating things to complain about since day 1. ya know, content
Don't get me wrong, THD has a lot of stupid takes and this is definitely one of them, but it is absolutely undeniable how m+ wreaks havoc on the raid gear progression curve.
I'm raiding at wr1k and was basically done with meaningful *mythic* gear before we killed Smolderon.
I'm wearing 2 Items I looted in raid rn, I just got 4 minor upgrades from the m+ vault and a few sockets since early January. Basically after our new-year raid, there was only 1 major upgrade left for me in raid, that one being at Tindral; and 3 minor ilvl ones from Fyrrak, Nymue, and Igara respectively. There is no reason to reclear once you kill the mid-tier wall, because any gear that you get will not help you. That is in part due to boss design, but mainly because m+ annihilates the raid gear progression curve (which can be seen as good, because bosses are so hard, that you don't have time to reclear every week during progression).
How was heroic gear still an upgrade for you that late? Assuming you do +20s and maybe raid mythic, was your guild just giga unlucky?
@@Opharg And why is that a bad thing? Do you want to spend more time in the raid repeatedly killing bosses to get your gear and help gear others? You have to view gearing through Mythic+ as upfront work so that you can dedicate more time to raid progress
Only solution is to give m+ and raid gear the pvp treatment. Give m+ ilvl penalty in raid and raid gear ilvl penalty in m+. Then everyone can just play what they want. Won't happen though.
THD needs too touch grass, blizz needs too not listen too the 0.1% of the player base... With trying too ruin the fun of the game
I think THD is an island unto himself, I don't think there's any utility if grouping him in with others in the top percent.
@@sackless1 ^^thd takes are way more batshit insane than other general 0.1% players
Tettles' hair has reached Jimmy Neutron levels of height
Name one time THD has a good take. I’ll wait. Don’t worry i’m here all year.
It will be a looong wait
This is one of the rare moments he had a good take.
💯
Thank F that Liquid dude arent working for Blizzard.
but a lot are sharing the same mindset
@@Kim-tr5op Who cares, they are a minority of idiots. They account for nothing in the grand scheme of Blizzard/Microsoft's money-making plans.
10 man mythic would be nice to see. Wouldn't even be opposed to them trying 5 man support for Normal/Heroic raids, 5 man content is clearly the healthiest PvE aspect of the game
We, as a community, are so lucky to have someone like Thd. Without him, who else would consistently provide us with the shittiest takes imaginable?
ofc the person who gets funneled gear and gets almost capped gearwise in the first week of the patch is bitching about people reaching the same ilvl 2 months into the season
its mindblowing how disconnected and out of touch some of the guys on the high end are holy shit
3 weeks into patch i have 2 characters at 485 and im in a dogshit guild. thoughts?
@@RiptorrZ we are 3 months into the season, what are you talking about
right now you can get 485 with any toon as soon as you hit level cap with sparks lol
@@RiptorrZ proof where, nobody believes this
@@RiptorrZ good? if u play this game only to gear ur a literal rat on a fucking wheel. is just means to an end to do the content u want. if u dont actually enjoy doing content. why are u playing this game
@@RiptorrZ That's just literally not possible unless you were clearing Mythic and got funneled every piece of gear that you needed on both characters. Hero track gear caps out at 483, and you need to spend 30 Aspect Crests to get it from 476 to 483. Now, I don't remember exactly, but I think that by week 3 you would have 3 sparks, so that's a potential for 3 486 items, costing 180 Crests. That's 180 out of the 270 you will have gotten in those three weeks btw. So honestly, not only will gear be a big issue, but also crests for upgrades.
For additional context, the highest recorded ilvl for the kill of Fyrakk between both Echo and Liquid was 482, which was late-ish in week 2. They could quite possibly have gotten to 485 the next week, but no way in hell anyone below top 100 world would be anywhere close to 485 in week 3.
THD and having a bad take, name a more iconic duo.
the crest system has made the game and progression much more enjoyable to me and my group of friends. we only play M+ and reach about 22-25 level keys depending on the season.
THD talks about it from his POV. Of course you would want the best gear be in Mythic Raiding since thats what you do all day and you have a whole team who is getting paid to do it. He needs to stop talking for us.
Also the best gear is still from raiding, so I still don't understand his POV
@@toxicginger6916 - EXACTLY. The only way you are getting mythic raid trinkets and weapons is by doing mythic raiding. That dude is clown.
M+ should be it's own thing, I don't' care about raiding but I feel like I have to to get Fyrak trinkets etc to push keys. I have the exact opposite problem, top gear from raiding is toxic, make m+ gear/sets like they did with pvp gear. Make it scale higher for m+, give some really cool M+ only trinkets/BETTER MOUNTS/REWARDS. I don't want to raid it's boring.
As someone who has come back after not playing since the release of the original Cata and was a pretty hardcore raider in WOTLK, the current gearing system is a massive improvement, especially for those who don't have the time or a consistent schedule to be able to learn and prog mythic raid, the casualisation of being able to jump on with friends and do decently hard content and be able to get endgame gear is the only reason I came back to the game.
Ima keep it real. If they changed the gearing system to further screw M+... id straight up unsub --- Because dealing with Mythic guild drama is TURBO aids and M+ has been such a fun time with my friends
Mythic guild drama has gotten so much worse, first tier in three expansions I won't get CE, the egos and power trips, it used to be fun and social, now it's weird and autistic. Mplus with a few friends is the only fun social thing left in this game
I don't enjoy raiding anymore. It's alot easier to find 4 other decent players to do M+ with, than to find 19 more for doing M raid. But the fact is that every exp. i have to do Raid for trinkets. Trinkets in raid are always the better option , even for an M+ only player. The vault system is terrible though. Since season start i've only gotten 5x 489 items in the vault. All my raiding didn't give me the Pip's trinket thats bis for me either. The whole system needs some changes for sure.
Ah yes, THD. Man who get spoonfed gear day 1 of raid release talks about gear aquisition. That's a no from me, dawg.
You're never guaranteed a Mythic track item that you need in the vault either I have had to take sockets the last three weeks and only have 4 Mythic track items on my char
Yeah exactly. I got lucky last 2 weeks, but before that legit 1/2 my gear was crafted.
@@Tettles remember Bfa? Without the raids it was impossible to get 3x blaster master as fire mage or the bloodsoaked urchin as monk/warrior tank. I have been forced to raid in order to be decently geared in m+. They should just make gear independent or give me a better chance of targeting gear when I do m+. There are still some things from the raid that basically force you to do this content. When you have bad luck with the weekly chest it's gg. In bfa I had 6 characters that all grinded m+ and I played the one most who got lucky in the chest. Forcing myself through pug raids and 7 guild disbands was horrible. Same with 9.0 where I had a ton of friends and guildmates quit. I came back to the game and finally the gearing as m+ player feels alright. I would love to be able to upgrade the few raid drops I have or some specific m+ hero ilevel items to mythic track. If the top 1000 players compete for ranking that's their issue but the vast amount of people I meet in the game enjoy m+ a lot more and at a certain level you just need the gear.
@@Tettles My friend got a Hero track weapon on his Warrior in the first couple of weeks of the patch, and only got an upgrade to it a few weeks ago, when he got the leggo axe. He's had 3 Myth track slots in his vault every week. He sits at 3659 rio, but because we don't have a big enough guild to raid Mythic, he has no real way of going for an upgrade other than praying to the Vault gods.
Meanwhile I got Myth track Gorehowl on my warrior alt in the first vault I opened on it. All I'm trying to say is, whoever says the vault is fair haven't actually played properly.
M+ gear system is fantastic, no reason some sweaty raider should be the only person to get gear. If anything, for gear progression, raid gear should not work in M+
Yeah make it completely unusable please. I'm tired of having to raid for his trinkets and such. Even know I can do hard keys that are individually more challenging than a lot of the mythic bosses but I can't upgrade my gear with it. I want full bis gear from m+. If those raiders dislike m+ they don't need to do it but I also don't need to deal with mythic guilds that always disband. My current guild stopped raiding again because the roster is unstable. I did not even do the raids except for a few fun heroic raids. 8th guild since Bfa that stopped raiding mythic. What stayed are people in my friendslist that I play m+ with
@@alexanderh2715 How do you want to upgrade your gear if you only raid? With the hundred crests u get from each run? Yeah no thank you. Early in the season you are forced to run M+ in order to be able to keep up with people that do both. So in your opinion raiders who dislike M+ should just go fuck themselves and don't upgrade their gear?
the big reason WoW is still alive is the M+ ..
Have the gear the same but no loot from mythic raid. If you kill a boss it adds to the great vault at mythic ilvl. That way it’s the same as M+. That would also fix the lack of progression in mythic raiding. Each week the teams ilvl will increase from the vault in effect nerfing the raid
Hard to take someone's opinion who lives in there moms basement seriously when they think everyone should have to spend hundreds of hours in mythic to get to end gear. Most of us have to work and support ourselves.
it's funny cuz he's fat!
"everyone should have to spend hundreds of hours in mythic to get to end gear". Why shouldn't that be the case? "Most of us have to work and support ourselves." So what? Why shouldn't more time spent in game reward you more? Actually think about why does better gear even matter in the first place. If you have a real life why do you care about being able to complete a +28 vs a +18, or clearing a mythic raid vs just the LFR version. The content is the same regardless of difficulty.
@@bkdarkness ok, so first of all, the content changes based off of the difficulty so youre definitely wrong there. a majority of people who play this game have lives outside of WoW, so if you cater to the minority of individuals who dont support themselves IRL because of their mommies, your customer satisfaction WILL drop, fact. if im getting declined from a 29 because im 3-5 ILs lower than some basement dwelling Mythic Raider who spends more time playing the game each day than i spend working, its also not a good look for the community. im good enough to compete at their level, i just dont have 12 hours per day to put toward the game so that should exclude me? just because you put in more time doesnt necessarily mean you are better at something, *NOR* should it immediately exclude someone else who hasnt put in as much time so long as they have the work to show for it. some people are just naturally better at certain things and, no matter how hard someone else may try, no matter the years of experience, they may never make it to that level. some people are just built differently.
who wants to do LFR content for fun, really? unless you find it challenging, i cant understand how you would find it engaging and/or fun.
@@jgro9 Why are you replying to my comment if you're not going to answer any of the questions in it.
@@bkdarkness i did. i answered both of your questions, actually. but ill answer them again, just so you know what youre reading.
anyone can do anything for as long as they like, it doesnt necessarily mean that they will be good at it. just because someone spends 60 hours per week playing the game doesnt necessarily mean they are better than the guy who only plays 15-20 hours per week, so why exclude the better player? just because they dont have as much time to play the game? thats silly. thats like hiring someone who has 25 years of experience but mediocre reviews and does a mediocre job instead of the guy with 10 years of experience who does a phenomenal job. experience helps and should always be considered, but its not everything. you make it sound like the person with more skill should be limited because of the person with more experience, and thats not a good formula for anything. some people are smarter and better and, from my experience, thats just how it is. no amount of training or learning can close that gap.
Raiding guilds are disbanding because mythic raiding is way too restrictive and outdated. If the raid size/lockout system didn't exclude 99% of the player base, then maybe you'd see a lot more people going for it. Also, why is it that other 1% think they're a bunch of special snowflakes entitled to special treatment?
Raiding IS supposed to Be hard its literally The ideology of mythic
Yeah, it is. Nobody thinks mythic raiding should be easy. But being overly restrictive has nothing to do with being hard.@@Zulej112
@@Zulej112 At the start of the season they're even harder, made especially for organized groups like Echo and Liquid which is less than 1% of the playerbase!
if bosses get nerfs over the season its TOO hard period and its shit progression to bash the head against the boss waiting for nerfs@@Zulej112
I quit Mythic/CE raiding when I came back after a year or so break of the game. And I am so much happier doing just m+ with friends. Not hitting the stupid high keys but mainly 25s (with a 26 or two thrown in). And being able to hit those levels of keys without (to me) wasting 12 hours a week raiding is so nice!
Mythic raiding should be 10 man at this point to make it more accessible. I think Mythic being gated to 20 man makes it harder for more people to do it and makes M+ the better solution for most players.
true so many people played pvp because it was easily accessible. do 10m mythic and remove the lockout bullshit and do cross realm. lot more would play the content. but these brain dead elitism players think they are superior
M+ doesn't give mythic gear, the vault does. Kekw
Heroic raid level gear should be BIS. Mythic should be for achievement and cosmetics. It would fix all of this.
True
It would just kill Mythic raiding. It wouldn't fix anything, you'd just move the issue at heroic gear vs Mythic+ gear, instead of Mythic.
The problem isn't that Mythic raiding exists, the problem is that several game types overlap. And where they overlap, it creates problems. And it will keep creating problems.
@@CrisalphaIf the only reason people raid is for gear than maybe they should change mythic raiding to be enjoyable, keeping raid alive by forcing people who enjoy M+ and PvP to do it is not a good solution, high end M+ has no gear incentive and people still do it for fun and a single title.
Just report THD
Increasing the ilvl difference between patches made season 3 feel soooo much better overall. It felt good to feel like you're really increasing in power when you got a new piece. The only people who don't like that are the people who force themselves into an annoying game loop because they're in the top tier guilds who NEED to do that to be competitive. For the vast majority of players, it was awesome.
I'm not amazing at the game. I got to ~3200 io this season on a couple different characters. I only did the first 3 bosses on Mythic. Overall, I would say this season has been a success.
Increasing ilvl between patches feels great.
Well, it is M+ that is keeping me in the game and occasionally do quests, which are still fun to a degree. If I was solely stuck to doing raids to gear up, and with guilds not holding steady, would wreck the game for me and I would imagine a ton of other players. It is too difficult to maintain a 20 man raid that is cohesive among casual players that have a chance to push higher in CE progression. Anyone can just PUG in Heroic raids, not a problem, IMHO but getting gear there is more difficult as there is far less funneling. For me it took just over two months to go from say 440ish to 468 with my time allocated to play. If in a progression raid team with splits and funneling, would take a week or two. I did like having legendary items that you work hard to upgrade individually, Blizz should bring that system back. Professions should be able to craft 90% of items in game, IMHO.
Boy I've stopped playing because the only thing M+ gives is 1 myth gear per week and I'm about maxed - gear progression has stopped. Instances prove no challenge unless I go above 22 or so, which is POINTLESS because all I get for playing above +18 is extra difficulty. I don't need that, it's getting exponentially stressful for zero extra reward except for the pointless RIO score. If the vault didn't reward myth gear I would have stopped playing so much sooner.
If anything, general m+ difficulty (as in TUNING) should increase greatly so it's not trivial to farm the difficulty level that yields the maximum gear upgrade level. With the current tuning, M+ is too easy to max out and then we max out our gear, get bored and unmotivated in ~2-3 months into the season.
THD and bad takes, name a more iconic duo
I would love for a deterministic function to be added to the vault where you get a charge similar to catalyst like maybe every other week or something that blocked a gear slot of your choice from appearing in the vault. It wouldn’t let you guarantee anything but for each charge you acquire and block a slot where you already have your mythic track piece, you increase your odds of at least getting the slot you need most.
They should make it two different groups of gear. Like how pvp gear is no longer from raids.
I also primarily M+ and also think the last 2 seasons have been great for loot. One of my ideas: I've been asking for a shorter than 1 week lock out on raids for a while now. How about remove the loot lockouts on heroic and lower raid difficulties and set mythic lockouts to 1-3 days reset.
ill be honest if M+ doesnt give best level gear that will be major turn off for next expansion.
Yeah same. At certain points you just get one-shot without the gear. M+ gearing could even be a bit more targeted and there should be something to upgrade heroic level gear. The current system just needs some additions. I like doing the heroic raid because it can be done in a bit of time with friends without a heavy raiding schedule like mythic raiding needs to have. People clearly like m+ more than raids. People like Thd are just delusional and don't understand which type of player keeps this game alive. It's certainly not the few mythic raiders
yep do it for the rewards and then play other games 😂
First of all, great video. I pretty much agree with all the points you made. Either content being absolutely mandatory for people that only prefer one or the other is bad in both directions.
Unrelated, but the quick chapstick application at 9:22 was the purest unintentional comedy gold.
I wish The Vault had a more deterministic gearing approach in the form of a currency. Tier 1: Earn 1/3 of the weekly currency, Tier 2: 2/3, Tier 3: Max currency for the week in the respective gameplay event. 3x your inflows by participating in all the Vault categories. Keep PvP and PvE currencies separate OR just make it all one currency and get whatever you want. Drop a vendor next to The Vault a few weeks into the season. Establish the economics and make it so that a player isn't being flooded with gear until late in the season as a catchup mechanic. It's rough sometimes when that BiS trinket just wont drop but it completely boosts your class, same with tier gear and weapons. I'm a filthy casual nowadays, however I would play more if we had a more deterministic system. Imo, its just more fun working towards something.
best ever, don't you fing touch it blizz
I think the ideal solution to m+ gear is to find the sweet spot between making it hard to completely gear out and making it reasonable to get a targeted piece of loot. It’s currently too easy to get a lot of gear but when you’re just looking for one specific thing it can be abysmal. Dinar system could help but I think a system where you gain points or a currency for a dungeon to spend solely within that dungeon could work
All I want is some sort of token to upgrade a piece of gear to a higher upgrade track, e.g. hero to myth. This would also make it feasible to get bis raid gear through pugging heroic.
The moment m+ will not give a decent gear and i will have to raid for it, ill quit wow. that simple.
Imagine having a GM that awards you mythic raid gear, fun dream
I love the gearing the system, participation is off the charts .
The only problem i find with the current gearing system is that as a player capable of constantly clearing 20+ keys with a limited time to play weekly...i had to go back to +11 -> +15 keys for wyrm crests to upgrade my gear in order to reach the ilvl required to use aspect crests...that was sick...instead of all dungeons above 16 or 18 or whatever should drop items with minimum ilvl from which you can strait away use aspect crests.
I don't have a problem with 486 crafted gear. It's timegated behind Sparks and skill-gated behind resources that only drop in the highest content. You need 60 aspect crests which require multiple 16+ keys. Although, this season, 16s were not difficult. I would be fine moving aspects to 18+.
As a Mythic raider who came back to DF from WoD, I feel there can be some improvements to M+:
To me, there are no benefits to run keys higher than 20 unless you're bleeding edge and shooting for the title. The loot grind ends fairly quick as you're gate-kept behind crests to upgrade gear at the beginning, and now the gear that drops is worthless.
What if the extra loot drop chance from completing a key over 20 was myth track?
At that point a 25 would guarantee a myth track piece from the dungeon, which can provide incentives to run keys at a high level and more chances for loot outside of the great vault.
What if they added additional transmog/mounts/titles for completing all keys at a certain level?
Say a mount for completing all 25s on Tyrannical and/or a title for completing all 24s on Fortified.
IMO, raiding has more incentive to participate than M+; Unique mounts that drop from bosses, an achievement mount, and titles for killing Mythic bosses are all better incentives than portals and sparkly shoulders. That is not touching the fact that gear from raid is likely BIS even for M+, and M+ players are stuck hoping the great vault drops Myth track gear, as outside of raid that is their only source.
I am curious as to your thoughts on the above.
The thing I don't understand about these old diehard fans: Why don't they just play classic instead of attempting to ruin retail for everyone? Every time they comment it's "remove this, bring back that" only constant negativity with zero constructive feedback. Retail needs to address a new generation of gamers and employ major innovations. But that's not possible with the toxic core of the playerbase boycotting anything fun.
How about this. In addition to the vault, every week you get a quest. The quest is to either kill 3 mythic raid bosses, or do 5 m+10 or higher(season 4 system) dungeons (you can only do one or the other, not both) The reward would be a random raid item of ilvl equal to what drops from the lowest of your highest 3 boss kills , or for mplus a Item that would have been a vault reward for the lowest of the 5 highest dungeons that you did. Essentially it would be a second vault item for those pushing high end content.
Just the fact that I can’t get into a decent CE guild due to lack of “previous CE” but I can pug 27s in m+ says enough about mythic raid for me. I can’t get gear from mythic raid besides whatever is pugable as opposed to being able to actually consistently gear from m+
Now that we can automatically get lower tier crests when we hit the caps on higher tier crests, I am personally in for tweaking the weekly cap on crests to slow down the myth ilvl progresions from M+… maybe 60 Aspects and 90 Wyrms cap per week.
I may even be fine for them to reduce the ilvl cap on Heroic track gear from 483 down to 480 provided that we have a more consistent way of obtaining myth track gears, for example adding
purchasvle with 6x tokens: pray to the RNG god and reroll your entire Vault for the week.
purchasable with 12x tokens: OKAY you’ve had bad luck, now go upgrade one of your gear by one progression track. Maybe you’ll get myth track gear on all slots like a myth raider, eventually! Only 15 weeks slower!
I think that M+, Raiding, PVP, and open world content should all run in their own silos, where gear from each silo is only optimized for the content in that silo. Yes, that means that people might end up with 2-4 sets of gear, but creating incentives where people feel like they have to gear up in one silo in order to be competitive in another silo create so much acrimony.
the easiest way would be to go the pvp route for pve in general. Easy and fast to farm base gear (honor) and weekly gated upgrades.
1. You will eventually get every item you want. No more hoping to get one specific item from vault or drop at all (Think there were some ppl even in high end raiding missing Proc Rings after Vault or that one trinket)
2. Blizzard can tune encounters to a specific gear-level that EVERYONE can easily achieve.
3. Even the race to world first peeps can be happy because you invest a few hours into getting base gear and are capped on upgrading it - no more splits.
4. The absurdity currently going on in PUGs of rolling Need on Items only intending to sell them to the highest bidder (hello fyrakk trinkets) would be gone
The only thing separating m+ Vault from Lootboxes at this point is you're not paying money but time invested for your vault..
Only issue with such a system change would be that it's a drastic change and I won't fool myself into thinking that people won't have an issue with Bosses/dungeons not dropping gear. There might be a middle ground but that will most certainly make splits even worse :D
/end rant
gearing has felt great for me so far this expansion, especially 10.2. Some of the most fun i've had playing wow in terms of content difficulty, diversity and gear acquisition.
I think that you should be able to upgrade a track of an item with 12 aspect tokens of merit. Probably doesn't help the speed of acqusition of myth track gear but it would improve the system
Crafted gear being available near max ilvl is great, as it basically serves as a bad luck protection system and it isn't just from crafting as you still need to do the content at an appropriate level to get this gear. The key level that drops aspect crests might be too low, but that's a different discussion.
Imo heroic raid gear should be about on par with max m+ gear for raiding and raid gear other than trinkets or other special items should be worse than m+ gear for dungeons. The exact way of implementing this wouldn't really matter. This way vault would only matter for getting the BiS dungeon trinket for raiding or maybe have increased tertiary chance to make it still matter.
I agree with you. The liquid warlock just comes off as elitist
Honestly I think the best option is to remove Mythic raid gear and make Mythic raiding reward cosmetics only. If you want the achievement of completing the mythic raid then you can get that without the need to lock gear behind it and the same with high end M+.
You have the opportunity to get the same max level gear between raiding or M+ (so current heroic tier) and you earn a currency (like conquest points or valour tokens with a weekly cap that increases each week) for doing either type of content. You can then buy the Mythic level gear items from a vendor with this currency and its not random you just buy the item you want. You would then be able to farm your BiS gear over a know period of time that would allow for a predictable increase in character power.
You could even build a crafting system into it that would allow you to by an item but apply a Missive to set its stats. You could also convert the catalyst to simply apply the set bonus to an item. That way you would be able to plan what items you buy and when to get your set at the mythic gear level.
What about bringing back the old raid quests but add in a m+ route of fulfilling it as well. I also could get behind getting a myth track cache from completing a 25 or something each week
I soewhat agree with what he's saying. That part being - most people don't play because they enjoy playing, but to GET things. Whatever those things are. Gear. Mounts. Pets. Get, get, get, buy if you can, just check it off the list.
Sorry for the long post but this is actually one of my big frustrations for the game. As someone who primarily wants to raid, M+ hasn't been a boon but rather a chore akin to AP Grinds of previous expansions. I am not saying I just want to raid log but asking people endlessly farm M+ week 1 just to raid burns them out real fast from M+.
As for solutions I will somewhat distill the 2 options down:
1) Make heroic farmable - This will incentivize guild all up and down the CE ladder to endlessly spend week 1 & 2 and maybe 3 just grinding heroic and not even going into mythic. WF raiders could skip M+ this way but the rest of us wills till have to do M+ when 10 guild members aren't on. Objectively worse imo.
2) Nerf M+ drops/Loot lockout M+ - This will just push people not do M+ outside of their raid team. Just like members save their heroic lockout for raid night we would now save M+ lockouts for raid teams too. Now this means we cant play with friends you dont raid with.
Real solution: Give it the PVP treatment. Completely split raid and M+ gearing so that you essentially get Normal quality loot but it scales higher in its respective content by 13-26 ilvl. At that point unless something is really broken, like mage mechagon wrists, there would be no reason for raiders to feel like they need to M+ and same form M+ers needing to raid. If we still have crests for upgrades then make locked to content you got it from.
Does this solution reduce the number of people doing M+ and raid? For sure but the people doing it will be doing it because they want to not because they have to so they are competitive in what they actually want to do.
I think they've had the solution since BFA, and they made it themselves.
Been saying since back then that the reward structure they used for visions is perfect for M+ and solves the issue of letting M+ players get mythic raid ilvl gear without it being this infinitely farmable thing.
Visions had that reward structure with lockout that allowed you to get a piece of loot from each difficulty, with you being able to ramp the difficulty up via masks.
I think this system can be molded to fit M+ in a way that removes the infinitely farmable gear while better incentivizing pushing. You add that lockout so its not infinite loot grinding, but you can always get more loot by completing the next key level up in time. This would also allow them to give mythic raid ilvl loot directly from M+ because it wouldn't be infinitely farmable, they'd pick a level where it would start being the reward and then in order to get more you'd need to keep pushing higher and higher levels which imo if you're pushing yourself in the hardest keys and timing the next level up you deserve a shot at another piece and if you're pushing the highest levels that piece should be mythic raid ilvl.
There'd still be some things to solve for like being rewarded for lower levels that you've progressed past without pushing people to run them. Can come up with lots of ideas for these issues but I think the general direction of that visions reward structure is a much better solution than the infinite farm we have going on at the moment and then praying for the vault to give you that specific thing you need.
I'd also like them to rework the "track" system so that it basically doesn't exist and you can just upgrade items to their limit and make how you're sourcing the crests or whatever upgrade material be the bottleneck. Maybe they keep the loot rng with some bad luck protection and then the pushing key level is more about upgrade materials to boost that loot.
I think allowing gear targetting for M+ would be a massive step for M+ only players cause the rng of the great vault is a major point of disappointment and frustration for them
I think the one change I would make to the M+ vault system is to make the tokens also be able to be used to purchase an item from the pool - even if it takes 12 tokens I'll take it.
I havent had a single 489 weapon drop all season and Im just throwing away gear week after week because its the only thing I need and it just wont drop. Meanwhile other guildies playing the same class have the timestrike 489 weapon 3 times now. Im basically nerfed by 5% purely because of RNG and it feels super shitty.
M+ has endless difficulty while M raiding has a set difficulty. M+ needs to give very high ilvl rewards for that reason. The ilvl gear you get from doing M+ alone must be able to carry you into very high keys.
most mythic raiders dont go past weekly 20s but wont invite a 3.6k rio player to their roster because he didnt have time before to get CE thats just really funny to me
It would be rly cool to get gear rewards for pushing high keys. Like a mythic track piece for having done 1 25 on fort and 1 on tyr. Or getting ANY (you choose) dungeon loot on mythic track if you time a 30 on tyr and fort. Having tangible rewards for pushing high keys would be awesome. If you’re doing 30s I think it’s totally fair to just get to choose a piece to be myth track
volcoross this week as a healer felt like LFR after we killed fyrakk(mythic)
im sure there's some tweaks that could make this upgrade system better, but as somebody in the +16-20 range, i love it. i get to get a few myth pieces if my vaults are good, and if not, i still can upgrade my hero stuff. i also really like crafting because it gets you decent gear regardless, but to get the higher ilevel, you have to have some kind of sucess in m+ or raid.
The two main issues atm are spammable heroic gear, and the difference between heroic 483 and mythic 489 gear being so small
1. Allow myth track to go to 6/6 (496 il) -> this means we'll get ~7% stronger over the course of an extra month of crest farming - way better than actively nerfing raid bosses which has been a bigger issue this xpac (still not as op as we got from concordance or corruption over the course of the final tiers of legion/bfa but to the same effect)
2. Dinar system for m+ -> say, every 4 m+16 you get a dinar up to 2 or 3 a week (point being: not infinitely spammable and avoids the "i got a cloak but the other guy got a weapon so im benched now")
3. Bring back the final 2 mythic bosses giving even higher level loot (il 499, non upgradable), arguably maybe even +30s having 2-3 pieces you could get at this item level (same as raid, usually you can equip maybe 2 or 3 of these better pieces + 2 more from m+30), not gamebreaking but gives a small "feels good" boost to exceptional people who have cleared all the content at the highest level
the forum post you briefly mentioned has a lot of great points too tho i dont agree with all of them (please dont give me two raids to progress at the same time, but do bring back 1-3 boss raids close to the end of the tier a la crucible of storms)
this is coming from a 2 day raider who (literally) just got CE, has 3400rio and 2k solo shuffle
Remove mythic gear from the game. Mythic raiding is now for prestige, and can be tuned to a known and expected gear level, normalizing damage profiles and allowing systems like the ICC buff to passively nurf the raid over time. This would also help with ilvl inflation between tiers. Add back in reroll tokens that can be used at end of dungeon and raid to allow “target farming” that specific instance/boss and the vault can remain random.
The take here that it's easier to get mythic track gear early on is only true for very skilled players who start to clear the first 3-4 bosses mythic within the first couple of weeks. Any team that isn't clearing mythic for the first months, will have at least 12 mythic vault items to choose from and 4 pieces overall.
Furthermore you'll get access to mythic level crafted gear much earlier to due farming 15+ dungeons.
If after a month you're clearing 3-6 bosses for the two vault items you're better raiding for sure, because you also get the boss drops plus vault.
The solution is clear though. M+ drops should not be as powerful as mythic raid gear in a raid and vice versa. Make them the same ilevel in the open world, but treat them like pvp gear.
Or put a cap on end of dungeon rewards.
So this essentially isn't a gearing issue, it's a blizzard not tuning mythic raiding properly just to artificially draw out the tiers longer. Edit: Also maybe we should actually touch on the issue of how many people realistically are pushing the 17's+ consistently early on, for most players getting to "farmable" heroic gear in M+ is progression and heroic tier raiding or higher challenging content depending on whether or not you're depending on pugs.
If you didn’t get gear from M+ I’d have no gear. My resto shaman for 1 drop from raid. I quit raiding a few weeks ago though as it got a bit serious at last two bosses.
I’m glad you provided feedback on this issue.
I completely agree with you.
Thank you.
As someone who hasn't quit WoW during an expansion for maybe the first time since WotLK, the upgrade system is banger.
Weekly vault in its current form needs work.
When you start a video with "there was a tweet by THD" I just know this is going to be pure gold.
Friend of mine was raidlogging and was fully decked out in set and as close to bis as he could given his guilds progress before I had my 2set. It started evening out just a week ago, maybe 2.
If I HAD to raid in order to gear I wouldn't play. I'm at work when most guilds raid (Tuesday-Fri) nights
They should make mythic raid hard impossible content for the fun of RWF and to stagger gearing, but only in the first couple of weeks, then tone it down hard so that people can progress and effectively farm loot from raid.
Spending months to clear a raid and get one or two pieces of good loot out of it just makes it feel not worth the time, that could have been better spent filling the eight M+ vault slots with +18s, which are a joke compaired even to the first boss of the raid.
The question I get from my raiders often is "why even bother spending all this gold and time just for an achievement?"
M+ shouldn't give mythic level gear, raid gear should be the best gear and gear should be linear. Bring back currency for gear so it is no longer rng based. Get rid of the Catalyst system. You shouldn't be able to do a dungeon get a mythic track vault item and turn it into mythic raid tier. why raid?
I gave up on mythic raiding ages ago (end of Legion I think) and couldn't be happier about it. Overall trend seems to suggest the playerbase is largely giving up on it as well. Blizzard's greed with server x-fers and realm locking it for years is one big factor. Another is the 20 man hard lock and roster issues. Another (especially last couple xpacs) has just been it's insane difficulty followed by a shower of nerfs during a season. As far as trade-offs go, a mythic raider ends up closer to max level cap faster, and (usually) has better trinkets than what is available to M+. The M+ player (via the vault) can creep up to the item level cap, and probably has to either use lower iLvl trinkets or M+ alternatives (usually not as good, but not always).
No other game offers an m+ game mode as far as I’m aware. Thd should be locked up for that shit take
Lets not all forget that THD's favourite feature was AP. Need I say more?
I think delaying gearing or introducing some type of upgrades that buff you later in the tier would help the whole brick wall thing happening on the last bosses. Later into the tier we should be able to do a lot more damage than the world first guilds.
Id also like to see mythic raids difficulty spread out over lots of bosses. Keep the first 2 or 3 as easy but there should be multiple rashok's or smolderon level bosses and a hard final boss instead of a single challenging boss then a ridiculously impossible boss. Instead of 400 wipes to 2 bosses, make it 100 wipes to 8 bosses. Just my take, it would help burnout imo
THD is wildly out of touch with the average player. I have been 483 since week 4 and still have not killed tindral. Gearing is not the end game.
I absolutely adore the current gear system. Getting to 90% power really fast has me playing 4alts. Historically, I've always been a 1 character andy but the ability to actually role something and be playing it for real without a month of edging as I farm ap and gear is so good.
I've played more this xpac than any in my history of playing since cata. Being able to play the game is good for retail players cuz retail is a gameplay focused experience not a social rpg experience.
My humble point of view in this discussion. ( not that anyone cares )
I'm a simple player, that have to work 5 days a week, and I'm also taking an MBA which takes time because of classes. Due to that the amount of time that I have to play is limited, and I can't take part in any guild cores that have a fixed raiding schedule, because of this I can't even run Heroic raids, just did some normal ones in pugs.
The only time that I have to play, I opt for m+ content, which is shorter, and if I can squeeze some m+ during the day it is good enough for me. To join groups of m+ I'm gated by my item level and my m+ score, which is not a bad thing IMHO, because I need to get experience to do higher keys.
TBH I would love to get myth track gear in m+ content, but I understand that they don't give us this to make us run mythic raids, so every week I try to run at least one key where I will have the chance to get one myth track item from vault.
Gearing in this game is not so easy for us casuals. I think that is not easy for RWF players too, or else they would not do the amount of splits they do on the race.
Guess for raiders they could just increase number of drops from hc bosses also.
I feel like 1x myth piece from m+ is fine, I think the problem, as the mythic raiding post on the forms talks about, is how fast we are gearing, and the means by which we are doing that. Week 1/2 we are literally just spamming m+ to get full hero gear that's good stats. Giving more than 1 a week will accelerate that, and that's why im hesitant to it. And on top of that, we have to keep in mind that delves are coming. So if we go crazy and accelerate gear more now, then in TWW we are going to be getting gear crazy fast and be full geared in 3 weeks (assuming that delves give more than 1 piece of myth. And if delves only give 1 piece of myth a week I promise you we will be having this conversation again but about delves instead of M+.)
Ultimately I think the devs need to figure out a pace on which they want people to gear, and then divide it in half between m+ and raid. Hot take: you have to play the game and do all the content if you want to be the most powerful. I am really sick of this mentality that people are having that they want rewards without doing content.
This is another thing I thought of, but I feel like it would set the world in flames. Somehow implement the ILVL boost in specific content like PVP has. So like M+ gear is boosted 10-15 ILVLs in 5man dungeon content, and raid gear has the same in raid instances(ignoring tier pieces, make tier pieces the same base regardless of content). The issue with this though is that it makes a wider gap between the previous season's ILVL and the new season's ILVL. But then people would still have incentives to raid each week because they need the gear from raid to kill the bosses.
I fill my vault every week with 3 chest on myth track in m+. 3 Weeks into season, I took out nothing from vault for 4 weeks, because it was no useful loot. And the last 3 weeks again.
So you get in chest rings with wrong stats, mainhands or offhands with wrong stats, wrist, feet, neck, where you have your crafted gear with embelishment or things you already got.
this week i finally got a head with leech, which i could turn into set piece.
so even you have 3 chest, the likelyhood you get a shitty choice is phenomenal high with my bad luck.
and btw. it really sucks to get that fyrrak tank trinket as healer, to likely live in 24+. i find raiding terribly boring. you raid with randoms hc and one lucky b. rolls on everything and goes home with 6 items (and that dude was bis equipped and needed that gear not at all), wheras you simply couldn't get a grip even on a belt.
remove upgrading gear and bring back badge vendors. Let raid and M+ give access to those badges and put a weekly cap on it. I think that was the best system back in the day personally.
Scale down m+ gear in raid. And vice versa. So raiders won’t be forced to farm m+
If it wasnt for m+ i wouldnt be playing the game. Being rewarded with that high item level gear makes me feel accomplished in what ive done.
You touched on it a little but I think the biggest problem was the ilvl gap between Aberrus and Amirdrassil. I don't think there should ever be a point where at the start of a new tier you can do something like the Dreamsurge and get equivalent/slightly better gear to the previous tier's mythic raid. I don't think incentivizing mythic raiders to do normal difficulty raids is all that important and isn't something the developers should care about. They made the gear from Normal Aberrus the same ilvl as Mythic VotI, why didn't they do the same for Mythic Aberrus to Normal Amirdrassil? Why the 13 ilvl jump from 441 to 454?
wow players when it's hard to gear: wow this sucks i can't get my bis. wow players when it's easy to gear: wow this sucks I got my BIS there's nothing to do. Even for someone like THD who is known for having the actual worst takes, you'd think someone who literally is in an org that pays people to gear them wouldn't pretend to know about the loot system.
THD is correct when it comes to raid gear, but not about killing M+ again. It's pretty normal to raid 3 weeks in a row, and not get a single upgrade. On the flip side you can spam keys and gear in a day.
So how do you solve that problem? I think there are a few ways you can do it. I think a dinar system for raid would help significantly. Or you could add a raid specific stat for each tier that makes getting raid pieces feel very good and bis for raiding.
TLDR: Raiding feels unrewarding, but M+ isn't the issue.
I like the fact that I can get max gear from dungeons