Great Video! Any video where any part of a retro computer is being restored to its formal glory and not just being tossed out like a piece of trash and getting to see another day is a wounderful thing. These retro computers are why we have what we have today and should be treated with respect and with care and I say thank you doing just that.
Nothing like a freshly cleaned keyboard! I am mostly done scrubbing up a recently acquired AST AT keyboard like the one that came with my first PC. It looked pretty sad going in, but came out almost like new! It's easy to overlook the humble keyboard, but it's a huge part of the feel of a classic computer. Definitely worth the time to restore it for another 25 years of use.
Another restoration completed. Well Done Adrian! 👍 Last year i bought myself a C128DCR on ebay, so this video was of particular interest to me :) Luckily mine survived being shipped from Italy to Denmark without any problems at all. Aside from what i am tempted to call "the obligatory Yellowing", it was in perfect order.
I'm a simple man, I see a C128 video, I upvote. - I own a 128D (plastic case) and a regular 128 (with 1571) too. I also have a NoS never used 128D keyboard as extra... I feel extremely lucky after watching this video that I never had to suffer through this to get a working C128D keyboard. :) I wanted to get a 128DCr (metal case) machine too, which will probably lack its keyboard, but didn't get around yet.
A couple of notes from my personal experience with cyanoacrylate. It does bond plastic very well, but it needs a low/no oxygen environment. This means a tightly pressed joint will bond but the glue on the exterior of the joint will remain liquid. This can be improved with the introduction of a small amount of water. The water seals the glue from the air which allows it to bond quickly. You may have seen this when you attempt to wash cyanoacrylate off your fingers.
My experience with cyanoacrylate when I used to build models was that using pressure is not good. The adherence was much much better when just putting the parts in contact without applying pressure.
@@galier2 That makes a lot of sense. Applying pressure will force out the liquid, especially when bonding two pieces that are perfectly fit to each other.
I think the problem with applying pressure (with your hands) is you can't press firmly and hold completely still at the same time, so you're constantly moving the joint a tiny bit and making the glue unable to set. I find a light touch sets better.
You are way more patient than i am. I saw a video where a guy was using krazy glue with sodium bicarbonate.. I think it s accelerating the drying process.
4:59 Ahh, perfect - when I pulled my 128D keyboard apart to give it a good clean, that tiny little spring popped out of *somewhere* ... now I can see where it goes
For ABS plastics, use solvent 'pipe' weld, similar to what you find in model making kits, or buy one of those pots from a hardware store. Also you can use Acetone if you let it wick into the gap enough, it simply melts the plastic then evaporates and bonds it back together. For unknown plastics, use superglue (CA) but test an inconspicuous area first. You can buy 'activator' from hardware stores, along with good quality CA glue disguised as 'Mitre bond' for plastic roofing applications.
I noticed you cleaning all the keycaps individually with a cloth (and probably some ipa). I found an easier and quicker way to do it. I put all the keycaps in a Tupperware box, added about two cups full of methylated spirit, closed the lid and shook the box for a couple of minutes. Rinsed the box with keycaps under the tap with running water, spread them out on a towel and let them dry for a couple of hours. I ended up with clean keycaps and with added bonus I did not had to breathe in methylated spirit or ipa fumes for a long time.
The thing with Cyanoacrylate (super glue, krazy glue, etc.) is not to use too much. A thin layer will actually stick much better (and much faster) than a thick one: the thicker the layer, the longer it takes to cure). I’ve learned this the hard way, in trying to restore stuff. A super thin smear, will set pretty much straight away…
i think superglue is everyone's nemesis. it was originally intended to be used as an instant bandage, not an adhesive. so that's why it sticks to your fingers better than the thing you are gluing. your problem seemed to be an incompatibility between the solvent in the glue and the plastic. the plastic may deform but leave it alone and the solvent will eventually evaporate and re-harden the plastic.
Precisely. Don't trust the shipping companies or Post Awful to be gentle. I had sent an engineering model out to the AF Test Flight Museum, and I had the box triple-walled, and a couple inches of styrofoam nuggets bags all around it. Figured as it's the only one of it's kind, I'd rather spend the extra time & money.
Adding Baking Soda to Krazy Glue after it has been applied will cause it to dry rock solid almost instantly. This may lead to a lot of finishing work afterwards but the repair usually adheres even when the glue refuses to set under normal circumstances. This is a trick used by guitar techs to repair broken plastic slotted nuts (on the headstock) permanently and hold up against the heavy pressure of the strings.
@@adriansdigitalbasement It's definitely worth trying though I would practice on some scrap plastic first until you get the method down. It can be a bit messy but usually produces a strong mechanical joint. :-)
You need water, accelerator (kicker) or baking soda for superglue to cure fast and well especially on plastic. If the amount is thin enough sometimes just blowing on it can help cure it faster. I haven't had much luck with plastic except when using baking soda. But that's messy and usually requires a lot of cutting/sanding afterwards.
I have had great luck retrobrighting keys by just heat. I put them in a canning jar, add the peroxide and some water, then putting them in a controlled heat source. About 120f-150f has worked for me.
nice video... I love glue from UHU LED Light Booster, Glueing on Command - Light-Activated Repair Adhesive , it becomes very hard and also hardens within 5 seconds under UV light. i repair same at my Amiga500 case
Cyanoacrylate glue needs moisture to harden. I wouldn't use it for such repairs. The crystals tend to degenerate after a couple of years. Use some epoxy stuff instead.
Better yet, use the correct adhesive for the job. Cyanoacrylate is great at sticking fingers together, but compleetely wrong for most of the jobs people use it for. Very clever marketing by Loctite and others but utterly wrong.
Commodore enclosure, keyboard enclosure, most computer and game console enclosures, made from ABS plastic: in case of a hairline crack with no material lost, fill the smallest syringe with the finest needle with acetone. Press down on the plunger gently until a droplet appears on the tip of the needle, maybe half a millimetre big. Put the needle on the crack from inside, you'll see the droplet instantly get pulled into the crack. Repeat maybe 10-20 times, leave for a day or two to cure, usually invisible repair, solid as new. Probably won't work on this keyboard tray, which i struggle to guess the plastic even. Some kind of acid-soluble polyester? Since well what happened when you applied CA. My first instinct would be, if i was the manufacturer, to make sliding parts out of PA, because they won't wear, will have a self-lubricating behaviour, and for the time being, like for around 10 years or more, they'll hold up really really well; but the whole keyboard tray just seems like too much material for something like that, at least if you're penny pinching. My instinct would be to repair the tops of keyboard tray shafts by reinforcement, with epoxy and winding a thread into it, or even CA and winding a cotton thread. The thread will help CA cure, actually cotton can react with CA a bit and the collar formed will also take up the forces on the shaft.
Another great video. To be fair, we have had a few days of sun recently here in Portland. I find myself watching the backgrounds now, waiting to see if i will get Rick Rolled. Keep up the great content.
Instead of superglue, try using the Loctite plastics repair kit. It has two parts, a cleaning “marker” with solvent (heptane) to prepare the plastic, and then the actual glue. I used it to repair a very broken C64 case and it worked perfectly.
That glue expires quickly after it has been opened. And it's only really good for acrylic based plastic. For instance the bottle it's stored in is made of normal polyethylene and it doesn't stick to that.
@@adriansdigitalbasement yep, epoxy based glues are much less brittle when dry, don't age that fast, and can take repetitive high mechanical forces. Superglue is actually only suitable for some specific applications, but people use it for almost anything, because it's easy to use.
Great video. Really enjoyed watching it! You mentioned not being able to retrobite in winter due to a lack of sun, but I was hoping you could use the cardboard box /w LED lights?
Just pausing at 8.30 to mention that (assuming Cyanoacrylate is indeed suited to the material to be repaired) you can actually use it to build up missing chunks by adding a drop & then quickly dropping a pinch of baking soda onto the glue, it sets up almost instantly and has much more gap-filling properties than usual... You can layer it up to fill bigger gaps too. I'm told the method comes from aerospace techs repairing helicopter rotor leading-edges, how true this is i don't know but i DO know I've successfully repaired tabs/gears and a few other things using this method.
I was wondering if the black key 'insert' could be removed from the key cap? If so, it seems like that could have saved you some time in a few instances.
Interesting that two of the cool youtubers I follow (You and Techmoan) are Diabetic. I've recently (November) been diagnosed as Type 2 (Thanks grandpa lol) so maybe that is why I notice it more in the world around me.
Glad to see two 128s (a flat and a diesel) back to full working capacity! I tried rewatching several times over but didn't quite catch it - what caused the D keyboard to produce that 3 and mis-types when you first plugged it in?
@@HoboVibingToMusic The previous owner probably hit the '3' key after turning the machine off and it was in the keyboard buffer for a few years just waiting to come out.
For the krazyglue or any kind of superglue you should buy a spray called suoer glue activactor, you put the glue, spray it and dries in seconds and gets super strong. I use it all time.
If so, they've got to be on one of the 3D object repositories like Thingiverse. *shameless plug* I know for certain they have replacement case tabs for the Commodore 64 because I made some and put em on there. :) *end shameless plug*
I can honestly say I've never had superglue melt plastic like that, usually it just sticks anything to anything, including my fingers to the piece I'm trying to fix... :P As for retrobriting in the winter, dunno if you know him but some guy by the name of Adrian Black did a video using near-UV blue LEDs to do indoor-whitening, wink wink......... :P
If I'm clamping something with a glue that might spread, I usually put some paper (or two) in between. Especially with a double-layer of paper it's easy to separate them if it sticks, and the paper can always be dissolved with water. It's essentially how my father would attach corner blocks on a violin mold, so they could be tapped back out once the sides were molded.
White zip tie instead of OEM black... oh, the horror! Do you not have a supply of NOS Commodor black zip ties? Just kidding 😁 Great job with the restoration!
Actually, Crazy Glue takes around 30 minutes to dry completely. I had experiences where it cured almost instantly, of taking up to 30 minutes. I hope this helps Adrian Black! Edit: At 9:04 when you explained that the plastic melted, this has never happened to me. I am appalled by seeing the plastic melt on the keyboard.
For this kind of plastic work it is better to use "plastic model glue", Revell or any other brand. It's slower to cure than cyanoacrylate, but the end result is so much better. It melts the plastic (works for polystyrene, ABS and other plastics). Super glue is not as durable in my experience. As it doesn't meld with the plastic, after some time the 2 materials tend to lose their adherence. With model glue, the plastic is melted and the result has more to do with welding than glueing.
The issue is getting the matrix to work. Most keyboards have the encoding electronics inside them, and flexible membrane instead of a PCB matrix. If that matrix doesn't line up, you're gonna have a very difficult time making it compatible. Now, if it were the other way around, you could potentially cut traces on the PCB, run some bodge wires, and make it match the matrix on a PC keyboard if you wanted a C128 keyboard to work on a PC, but going the other way is extremely difficult. I was considering attempting something similar to cludge together a keyboard for a Tandy 1000HX motherboard I have lying around, but it could involve using conductive paint to re-route some of the membrane traces, or a microcontroller.
I caught the label inside one of the keyboards, it showed "Mitsumi" I think. I recall them making keyboards for PC clones, too, so there's at least some chance to scrounge parts from one of those if we're lucky.
No cyanacrylate, no epoxy. Acteone based model bulding glue is the right thing to do on ABS like Commodore plastic parts. (for example Revell - Professional Contacta Glue). It will weld broken parts into one, stronger than all the surrounding plastic and completely seemlessly if you are careful.
You can get a good guess on identifying most molded products, by combining three methods: 1. The 'experienced' way: -You can expect most "cheap" products, that't aren't regularly put to stress, to be made from ABS, as it's one of the cheapest plastics and has good impact resistance, because it's rather elastic. Media devices and often household items are made from ABS. Examples are: Notebook cases, pocket calculators, toys, lighters and such are things usually made from ABS. Things with no special needs for toughness. There also are the cheapest variants, that usually are molded very thin (like 1 to 1,5mm), that are way less flexible and break easily (often used by cheap plastic file trays for example). The later ones got this distinctive 'cheap feeling when touching them. You can glue nearly all of these with the same contact glue. -Mid rangehousehold and kitchen products (like clothes baskets, tupperboxesare often made from Nylon/PA6 or POM as these are even more flexible, but also a bit more expensive. You often find these plastics in cheaper power tools or products that require a bit more physical strength because of their application. More likely in the kitchen you will find Polyethylene or Polypropylene because of heir very low surface energy. The low surface energy is good for the appliction because it will make it nearly impossible for anything to stick to the surface, but this also means that plastics of these families require very specific primers and glues for the exact plastic type, that are expensive, hard to get and too hazardous. Usually these products sadly aren't worth reparing because of this. -More expensive high end plastics like Polycarbonate (Glue it with CA or Epoxy) or PEEK (Glue it with Epoxy) are used in quality power tools riot shields, professional devices like cases for electrical-power-distribution, where you need the maximum possible strength. In combination to the more advance plastics, you always increased material thickness (2mm+) in products made by these. 2. The 'readable' way: In many product you find little stampings in the mold, telling you what the plastic is made from. Modern products follow the Resin Identification Code (www.google.com/search?q=Resin+Identification+Code+(RIC)&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjAodGmjozmAhUEI1AKHfk5CgUQ_AUoAXoECGkQAw&biw=1920&bih=840) Older and cheaper products often have round markings, with some letters inside like PA6 or ABS. 3. The 'empirical' way: Find a hidden spot inside an enclosure, where some uglyness wouldn't bother you and do some tests: -scratch the surface with a sharp object, or try to shave off a little flake with a knife. From the hardness and the sound you can tll if it's a cheaper or higher grade plastic. When there's a scratching sound, and/or sensation, then there's glass fiber reinforcement mixed into the plastic. You can often even see the 'hairy' structure of the glass fiber reinforcement, whan you look at the cross cut of a broken part. -dip a Q-Tip into acetone and firmly pull it over the surface for a few milimetes. If you see coloration on the Q-Tip, you can guess that it's made from ABS or similar. -Heat it with a ligher and carefully get a bit of the smell. The aroma of the plastic will tell you what about it is, if you do this often enough (of course very carefully :) ) Of course that's just very coarse and requires a bit to get used, to, but it's usually enough for identifying what glueing method would be optimal for the case. The first thing to consider should be if there's a matching contact glue for the plastic. In all other cases, when there's no contact glue for the job, then it's really important to clean and roughen the surface if possible for giving the glue a chance to stick.
I find it better, with glues and adhesives, to stick with a name brand, like 3M, LePage, etc. Krazy Glue is a dollar store brand, and I always regret going cheap on glues and adhesives.
It's been a long time, and you probably know by now, but cyanoacrylate isn't great for polypropylene or HDPE, which is probably why you were having difficulties. CA is great for a lot of purposes, except... If CA doesn't work, epoxy and patience is probably your best option.
It doesn't glue "oil plastics" oil plastics are any plastics that have a glossy look when broken on their edges. If you get it to "bond" it won't last long.
Wikipedia on cyanoacrylate: "They are derived from ethyl cyanoacrylate and related esters. The cyanoacrylate group in the monomer rapidly polymerize in the presence of water to form long, strong chains. " it absorbs moisture from the air and it helps with the bonding. I usually blow warm humind air right from my mouth on it, I think it helps. I also saw a good method of gluing stuff together with cyanoacrylate is that you sprinkle fine baking soda along the crack then drip some glue, repeat until you think it's going to hold. This method only works on the surface that is hidden because you are building up material to hold onto the 2 sides. Check it out: ruclips.net/video/Sq5YJbZXaZk/видео.html
It's supposed to. You can even use it to build up missing pieces like the little clamps from a monitor panel. It may be a bit brittle because it's not flexible like the plastic.
@@adriansdigitalbasement RUclipsr AkBkuku used baking soda plus superglue. the mix hardens so fast. he published one video about how well it works. And it's like Sven Werner said, you can build small pieces and even fill gaps.
@Adrian Black ... Cyanoacrylate cure with ambient humidity........ if your environment is very dry ..... air conditioning kind of dry... that affects the Curing time of Cyanoacrylate ... blow humid breath.. like when you try to moisten a glass to write on it with your finger ... it helps a lot ............... but especially the amount It's the key ....... you must put a small layer on the crack of the piece to stick....... the receiving piece must be dry....... if is dripping .. or forming a drop..... is too much........... . if you put the right amount you will notice.. when you joining and push both pieces together ..because small little drops will come out from the union of both pieces.... in your case ..... you have a Cyanoacrylate swimming pool there my friend..... it will dry the surface of all that liquid..... taking a long time to harden the Cyanoacrylate inside the union of the pieces......
Adrian is like, the nicest dude ever, and he's super thorough. How could anyone not like these videos?
Great Video! Any video where any part of a retro computer is being restored to its formal glory and not just being tossed out like a piece of trash and getting to see another day is a wounderful thing. These retro computers are why we have what we have today and should be treated with respect and with care and I say thank you doing just that.
Nothing like a freshly cleaned keyboard! I am mostly done scrubbing up a recently acquired AST AT keyboard like the one that came with my first PC. It looked pretty sad going in, but came out almost like new! It's easy to overlook the humble keyboard, but it's a huge part of the feel of a classic computer. Definitely worth the time to restore it for another 25 years of use.
22:58 "i can't retr0bright".... wait what ..? What happened with the 2012 crazy yellow philips lamps ?? @Adrian Black....
Yeah, what gives? Been thinking of building a brite box. Did it not work so well after all?
I have 3 function keys on 2 C128s to fix with new plungers. Your video makes it seem like a tiny 5 minute job in comparison !
Adian Black introducing his new video, "For today's video it's going to be a quick one." One month later, "And welcome to part three."
Unless its a TRS80 Model 4; then we never get Part 3 - heh
Another restoration completed. Well Done Adrian! 👍
Last year i bought myself a C128DCR on ebay, so this video was of particular interest to me :) Luckily mine survived being shipped from Italy to Denmark without any problems at all. Aside from what i am tempted to call "the obligatory Yellowing", it was in perfect order.
it activates with moisture, there is spray to harden superglue
I breath on the glue, this helps get the humidity up
Make your own activator by mixing baking soda and water. It's not quite as good as the carcinogenic stuff, but it does the job.
Surprisingly I'm really enjoying theses tear down and repair videos. Probably because it makes it seem like even I could do it. 🇨🇦
New camera is awesome! I love your videos, think you are a really genuine youtuber. Thanks the entertainment.
I'm a simple man, I see a C128 video, I upvote. - I own a 128D (plastic case) and a regular 128 (with 1571) too. I also have a NoS never used 128D keyboard as extra... I feel extremely lucky after watching this video that I never had to suffer through this to get a working C128D keyboard. :) I wanted to get a 128DCr (metal case) machine too, which will probably lack its keyboard, but didn't get around yet.
A couple of notes from my personal experience with cyanoacrylate. It does bond plastic very well, but it needs a low/no oxygen environment. This means a tightly pressed joint will bond but the glue on the exterior of the joint will remain liquid. This can be improved with the introduction of a small amount of water. The water seals the glue from the air which allows it to bond quickly. You may have seen this when you attempt to wash cyanoacrylate off your fingers.
My experience with cyanoacrylate when I used to build models was that using pressure is not good. The adherence was much much better when just putting the parts in contact without applying pressure.
@@galier2 That makes a lot of sense. Applying pressure will force out the liquid, especially when bonding two pieces that are perfectly fit to each other.
I think the problem with applying pressure (with your hands) is you can't press firmly and hold completely still at the same time, so you're constantly moving the joint a tiny bit and making the glue unable to set. I find a light touch sets better.
You are way more patient than i am. I saw a video where a guy was using krazy glue with sodium bicarbonate.. I
think it s accelerating the drying process.
4:59 Ahh, perfect - when I pulled my 128D keyboard apart to give it a good clean, that tiny little spring popped out of *somewhere* ... now I can see where it goes
For ABS plastics, use solvent 'pipe' weld, similar to what you find in model making kits, or buy one of those pots from a hardware store. Also you can use Acetone if you let it wick into the gap enough, it simply melts the plastic then evaporates and bonds it back together.
For unknown plastics, use superglue (CA) but test an inconspicuous area first. You can buy 'activator' from hardware stores, along with good quality CA glue disguised as 'Mitre bond' for plastic roofing applications.
Ah yes I have some of that ABS weld around as I did some plumbing on my kitchen sink and needed it. I'll need to keep that in mind.
I noticed you cleaning all the keycaps individually with a cloth (and probably some ipa). I found an easier and quicker way to do it. I put all the keycaps in a Tupperware box, added about two cups full of methylated spirit, closed the lid and shook the box for a couple of minutes. Rinsed the box with keycaps under the tap with running water, spread them out on a towel and let them dry for a couple of hours. I ended up with clean keycaps and with added bonus I did not had to breathe in methylated spirit or ipa fumes for a long time.
The thing with Cyanoacrylate (super glue, krazy glue, etc.) is not to use too much. A thin layer will actually stick much better (and much faster) than a thick one: the thicker the layer, the longer it takes to cure). I’ve learned this the hard way, in trying to restore stuff. A super thin smear, will set pretty much straight away…
That was an exhausting watch!
Baking soda will turn it into a solid mass that's workable with sandpaper and files.
Beware of the fumes though
You can also use fine granulated sweeteners like sweet'n'low if you're working in an office (check the coffeemaker area).
Yes, works very well and very easy to apply
i think superglue is everyone's nemesis. it was originally intended to be used as an instant bandage, not an adhesive. so that's why it sticks to your fingers better than the thing you are gluing. your problem seemed to be an incompatibility between the solvent in the glue and the plastic. the plastic may deform but leave it alone and the solvent will eventually evaporate and re-harden the plastic.
Moral of the story: Use protective packaging.
Precisely. Don't trust the shipping companies or Post Awful to be gentle. I had sent an engineering model out to the AF Test Flight Museum, and I had the box triple-walled, and a couple inches of styrofoam nuggets bags all around it. Figured as it's the only one of it's kind, I'd rather spend the extra time & money.
Glad you were able to fix the keyboard. The end product was awesome!
Adding Baking Soda to Krazy Glue after it has been applied will cause it to dry rock solid almost instantly. This may lead to a lot of finishing work afterwards but the repair usually adheres even when the glue refuses to set under normal circumstances. This is a trick used by guitar techs to repair broken plastic slotted nuts (on the headstock) permanently and hold up against the heavy pressure of the strings.
@@adriansdigitalbasement It's definitely worth trying though I would practice on some scrap plastic first until you get the method down. It can be a bit messy but usually produces a strong mechanical joint. :-)
You need water, accelerator (kicker) or baking soda for superglue to cure fast and well especially on plastic. If the amount is thin enough sometimes just blowing on it can help cure it faster. I haven't had much luck with plastic except when using baking soda. But that's messy and usually requires a lot of cutting/sanding afterwards.
I have had great luck retrobrighting keys by just heat. I put them in a canning jar, add the peroxide and some water, then putting them in a controlled heat source. About 120f-150f has worked for me.
nice video... I love glue from UHU LED Light Booster, Glueing on Command - Light-Activated Repair Adhesive , it becomes very hard and also hardens within 5 seconds under UV light.
i repair same at my Amiga500 case
Great stuff! The C128D is one of the few that I don't have. Maybe next year I will track one down.
Nice video, go and keep these oldies up and running👍 BTW have u seen the Blob lately?
Cyanoacrylate glue needs moisture to harden. I wouldn't use it for such repairs. The crystals tend to degenerate after a couple of years. Use some epoxy stuff instead.
Cyanoacrylate, if applied too thick, won't dry properly in the listed times.
If you need to gap-fill, mix in some baking soda or corn starch.
Better yet, use the correct adhesive for the job. Cyanoacrylate is great at sticking fingers together, but compleetely wrong for most of the jobs people use it for. Very clever marketing by Loctite and others but utterly wrong.
What happened to your UV box for retrobrighting?
Commodore enclosure, keyboard enclosure, most computer and game console enclosures, made from ABS plastic: in case of a hairline crack with no material lost, fill the smallest syringe with the finest needle with acetone. Press down on the plunger gently until a droplet appears on the tip of the needle, maybe half a millimetre big. Put the needle on the crack from inside, you'll see the droplet instantly get pulled into the crack. Repeat maybe 10-20 times, leave for a day or two to cure, usually invisible repair, solid as new.
Probably won't work on this keyboard tray, which i struggle to guess the plastic even. Some kind of acid-soluble polyester? Since well what happened when you applied CA. My first instinct would be, if i was the manufacturer, to make sliding parts out of PA, because they won't wear, will have a self-lubricating behaviour, and for the time being, like for around 10 years or more, they'll hold up really really well; but the whole keyboard tray just seems like too much material for something like that, at least if you're penny pinching.
My instinct would be to repair the tops of keyboard tray shafts by reinforcement, with epoxy and winding a thread into it, or even CA and winding a cotton thread. The thread will help CA cure, actually cotton can react with CA a bit and the collar formed will also take up the forces on the shaft.
Hey Adrian, you might try some of that testor's plastic modeling glue.
Suggestion: could you saw off the plunger supports that are broken, and then 3d printf new ones, and then glue them onto the plate?
Another great video. To be fair, we have had a few days of sun recently here in Portland. I find myself watching the backgrounds now, waiting to see if i will get Rick Rolled. Keep up the great content.
Instead of superglue, try using the Loctite plastics repair kit. It has two parts, a cleaning “marker” with solvent (heptane) to prepare the plastic, and then the actual glue. I used it to repair a very broken C64 case and it worked perfectly.
That glue expires quickly after it has been opened. And it's only really good for acrylic based plastic. For instance the bottle it's stored in is made of normal polyethylene and it doesn't stick to that.
@@adriansdigitalbasement yep, epoxy based glues are much less brittle when dry, don't age that fast, and can take repetitive high mechanical forces. Superglue is actually only suitable for some specific applications, but people use it for almost anything, because it's easy to use.
Great video. Really enjoyed watching it! You mentioned not being able to retrobite in winter due to a lack of sun, but I was hoping you could use the cardboard box /w LED lights?
I haven't actually looked at it in several years, but I have a UV exposure board from a broken resin printer.
Heres a crazy tip for your crazy glue, the top of your red cap has a pyramid shape you use to pierce the foil rather than a screwdriver
Just pausing at 8.30 to mention that (assuming Cyanoacrylate is indeed suited to the material to be repaired) you can actually use it to build up missing chunks by adding a drop & then quickly dropping a pinch of baking soda onto the glue, it sets up almost instantly and has much more gap-filling properties than usual... You can layer it up to fill bigger gaps too. I'm told the method comes from aerospace techs repairing helicopter rotor leading-edges, how true this is i don't know but i DO know I've successfully repaired tabs/gears and a few other things using this method.
I was wondering if the black key 'insert' could be removed from the key cap? If so, it seems like that could have saved you some time in a few instances.
I've had some bad experiences with Krazy Glue as well and have basically given up on that brand. The Loctite stuff seems to work a lot better.
Interesting that two of the cool youtubers I follow (You and Techmoan) are Diabetic. I've recently (November) been diagnosed as Type 2 (Thanks grandpa lol) so maybe that is why I notice it more in the world around me.
try Spray 9 cleaner to clean the yellow color off the keyboard.....disinfects as well
also, those super yellow, almost gold keys might be perfect for some wintertime, or, in-house/in-basement retrobrite experiments
Glad to see two 128s (a flat and a diesel) back to full working capacity! I tried rewatching several times over but didn't quite catch it - what caused the D keyboard to produce that 3 and mis-types when you first plugged it in?
Possibility that the connector (db25) may be the issue. Or some sort of weird compatability issue with the new keyboard?
@@HoboVibingToMusic The previous owner probably hit the '3' key after turning the machine off and it was in the keyboard buffer for a few years just waiting to come out.
@@PJBonoVox The key: My time has come.
Well done Adrian... ✌️🇧🇭
Great work, but Why didn't you retro bight the keys since it was all apart already?
Audio seemed okay on the new camera. It was just different.
For the krazyglue or any kind of superglue you should buy a spray called suoer glue activactor, you put the glue, spray it and dries in seconds and gets super strong. I use it all time.
Audio sounds fine dude. Don't worry about it.
Are those double shot keys? Man, those were the days....
Very useful for me now.
Is it a metal or a plastic one of the 128D-Model that was shown?
Do you still retrobright things with your blue light box?
The more glue you use the longer it takes..
Crazy glue with just a bit of baby powder mixed in will make the bond much stronger.
loctite 444 and activator spray....will set immediately
Try CA with accelerator. Used to put plastic models together.
Curious though if anyone makes 3D printed replacement plastic thingies.
If so, they've got to be on one of the 3D object repositories like Thingiverse. *shameless plug* I know for certain they have replacement case tabs for the Commodore 64 because I made some and put em on there. :) *end shameless plug*
I can honestly say I've never had superglue melt plastic like that, usually it just sticks anything to anything, including my fingers to the piece I'm trying to fix... :P
As for retrobriting in the winter, dunno if you know him but some guy by the name of Adrian Black did a video using near-UV blue LEDs to do indoor-whitening, wink wink......... :P
If I'm clamping something with a glue that might spread, I usually put some paper (or two) in between. Especially with a double-layer of paper it's easy to separate them if it sticks, and the paper can always be dissolved with water. It's essentially how my father would attach corner blocks on a violin mold, so they could be tapped back out once the sides were molded.
is the 128D keyboard connector the same as the Executor-64 keyboard connector, and are they compatible?
23:47 - is that Portal?
Use some CA thin, my fav is Zap thin, its designed for that kind of thing, capillary action and all that, would fill the gap well.
Humalog, novalog, or that other one?
White zip tie instead of OEM black... oh, the horror! Do you not have a supply of NOS Commodor black zip ties?
Just kidding 😁 Great job with the restoration!
Is that plastic ABS? You could be better off getting some ABS cement at the hardware store. It will be in the plumbing aisle.
Adrian, try ZHAN LI DA, E8000 glue, it is not instant but is great for plastic to plastic bonding.
AliExpress and Banggood.
Actually, Crazy Glue takes around 30 minutes to dry completely. I had experiences where it cured almost instantly, of taking up to 30 minutes. I hope this helps Adrian Black!
Edit: At 9:04 when you explained that the plastic melted, this has never happened to me. I am appalled by seeing the plastic melt on the keyboard.
Looks like you could 3d print that plastic key holder on the back?? Maybe just the key holders that need replaced? Hummm. 🤔
Nice job. I have a 128D and some of the keys don't work any more. I know the left shift is one.
For this kind of plastic work it is better to use "plastic model glue", Revell or any other brand. It's slower to cure than cyanoacrylate, but the end result is so much better. It melts the plastic (works for polystyrene, ABS and other plastics). Super glue is not as durable in my experience. As it doesn't meld with the plastic, after some time the 2 materials tend to lose their adherence. With model glue, the plastic is melted and the result has more to do with welding than glueing.
Yep, I'd bet that plastic is ABS and, if so, the glue to use is definitely "model cement."
@@winstonsmith478 Thats is what I think too. A really good choice for ABS is stuff you can get at Home depot or other hardware stores. ABS Cement
I used plastic bondo from Walmart on my headphones on the hinges and I got another year out of it before it cracked again
Good stuff
love your videos.
Am I the only one that hears PCBWaaaaay in my head each time someone says PCB? :)
Let me guess: you have been following Perifractic's Retro Recipes for a while, am i right? hehe
@@BertGrink Spot on, correct :)
I truly believe Adrian has the skills to Frankenstein a standard PC keyboard to work as a C128D keyboard ... just sayin
The issue is getting the matrix to work. Most keyboards have the encoding electronics inside them, and flexible membrane instead of a PCB matrix. If that matrix doesn't line up, you're gonna have a very difficult time making it compatible. Now, if it were the other way around, you could potentially cut traces on the PCB, run some bodge wires, and make it match the matrix on a PC keyboard if you wanted a C128 keyboard to work on a PC, but going the other way is extremely difficult.
I was considering attempting something similar to cludge together a keyboard for a Tandy 1000HX motherboard I have lying around, but it could involve using conductive paint to re-route some of the membrane traces, or a microcontroller.
I caught the label inside one of the keyboards, it showed "Mitsumi" I think. I recall them making keyboards for PC clones, too, so there's at least some chance to scrounge parts from one of those if we're lucky.
CA and baking soda would probably be a good solution for the broken plastics
if you were really board, you could cast a new bit for the numpad area out of some sort of resin/plastic combo.....
No cyanacrylate, no epoxy. Acteone based model bulding glue is the right
thing to do on ABS like Commodore plastic parts. (for example Revell -
Professional Contacta Glue). It will weld broken parts into one,
stronger than all the surrounding plastic and completely seemlessly if
you are careful.
You can get a good guess on identifying most molded products, by combining three methods:
1. The 'experienced' way:
-You can expect most "cheap" products, that't aren't regularly put to stress, to be made from ABS, as it's one of the cheapest plastics and has good impact resistance, because it's rather elastic. Media devices and often household items are made from ABS. Examples are: Notebook cases, pocket calculators, toys, lighters and such are things usually made from ABS. Things with no special needs for toughness. There also are the cheapest variants, that usually are molded very thin (like 1 to 1,5mm), that are way less flexible and break easily (often used by cheap plastic file trays for example). The later ones got this distinctive 'cheap feeling when touching them. You can glue nearly all of these with the same contact glue.
-Mid rangehousehold and kitchen products (like clothes baskets, tupperboxesare often made from Nylon/PA6 or POM as these are even more flexible, but also a bit more expensive. You often find these plastics in cheaper power tools or products that require a bit more physical strength because of their application. More likely in the kitchen you will find Polyethylene or Polypropylene because of heir very low surface energy. The low surface energy is good for the appliction because it will make it nearly impossible for anything to stick to the surface, but this also means that plastics of these families require very specific primers and glues for the exact plastic type, that are expensive, hard to get and too hazardous. Usually these products sadly aren't worth reparing because of this.
-More expensive high end plastics like Polycarbonate (Glue it with CA or Epoxy) or PEEK (Glue it with Epoxy) are used in quality power tools riot shields, professional devices like cases for electrical-power-distribution, where you need the maximum possible strength. In combination to the more advance plastics, you always increased material thickness (2mm+) in products made by these.
2. The 'readable' way:
In many product you find little stampings in the mold, telling you what the plastic is made from.
Modern products follow the Resin Identification Code (www.google.com/search?q=Resin+Identification+Code+(RIC)&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjAodGmjozmAhUEI1AKHfk5CgUQ_AUoAXoECGkQAw&biw=1920&bih=840)
Older and cheaper products often have round markings, with some letters inside like PA6 or ABS.
3. The 'empirical' way:
Find a hidden spot inside an enclosure, where some uglyness wouldn't bother you and do some tests:
-scratch the surface with a sharp object, or try to shave off a little flake with a knife. From the hardness and the sound you can tll if it's a cheaper or higher grade plastic. When there's a scratching sound, and/or sensation, then there's glass fiber reinforcement mixed into the plastic. You can often even see the 'hairy' structure of the glass fiber reinforcement, whan you look at the cross cut of a broken part.
-dip a Q-Tip into acetone and firmly pull it over the surface for a few milimetes. If you see coloration on the Q-Tip, you can guess that it's made from ABS or similar.
-Heat it with a ligher and carefully get a bit of the smell. The aroma of the plastic will tell you what about it is, if you do this often enough (of course very carefully :) )
Of course that's just very coarse and requires a bit to get used, to, but it's usually enough for identifying what glueing method would be optimal for the case. The first thing to consider should be if there's a matching contact glue for the plastic. In all other cases, when there's no contact glue for the job, then it's really important to clean and roughen the surface if possible for giving the glue a chance to stick.
YACC: Yet another ceyboard cobbled
Great Video :) Thank you.
I find it better, with glues and adhesives, to stick with a name brand, like 3M, LePage, etc. Krazy Glue is a dollar store brand, and I always regret going cheap on glues and adhesives.
cyanoacrylate doesn't bond ABS............
It's been a long time, and you probably know by now, but cyanoacrylate isn't great for polypropylene or HDPE, which is probably why you were having difficulties. CA is great for a lot of purposes, except... If CA doesn't work, epoxy and patience is probably your best option.
Crazyglue -> instruction is wrong, i needed 4-6hours for complicated cd-tray repair. Many hours is standard time for some repairs
Why not retrobright the keys if you had to take them all off anyways?
Watch the whole video and you might find out.
You need some Insta-set spray to set that CA glue instantly.
It doesn't glue "oil plastics" oil plastics are any plastics that have a glossy look when broken on their edges. If you get it to "bond" it won't last long.
another alternative for glueing plastic parts is acetone glue like for plastic car miniatures, but not good glueing ABS plastic parts
Yes, because acetone melts ABS.
subbed, awesome content
so far I was avoiding the keyboard refurbishing, maybe I can postpone it a few more years
Just use JB Plastic Weld/Bonder and it'll stick to ALL plastics. -Mark.
@2:42 looks like a nugget sitting in there
Thanks, I have to do the same job 🤪
Wikipedia on cyanoacrylate:
"They are derived from ethyl cyanoacrylate and related esters. The cyanoacrylate group in the monomer rapidly polymerize in the presence of water to form long, strong chains. " it absorbs moisture from the air and it helps with the bonding. I usually blow warm humind air right from my mouth on it, I think it helps. I also saw a good method of gluing stuff together with cyanoacrylate is that you sprinkle fine baking soda along the crack then drip some glue, repeat until you think it's going to hold. This method only works on the surface that is hidden because you are building up material to hold onto the 2 sides. Check it out:
ruclips.net/video/Sq5YJbZXaZk/видео.html
Try to add baking soda onto the glue.
It's supposed to. You can even use it to build up missing pieces like the little clamps from a monitor panel. It may be a bit brittle because it's not flexible like the plastic.
@@adriansdigitalbasement RUclipsr AkBkuku used baking soda plus superglue. the mix hardens so fast. he published one video about how well it works. And it's like Sven Werner said, you can build small pieces and even fill gaps.
@@adriansdigitalbasement yes it does. + it works like an extra plastic layer, holding broken plastic together
@Adrian Black ... Cyanoacrylate cure with ambient humidity........ if your environment is very dry ..... air conditioning kind of dry... that affects the Curing time of Cyanoacrylate ... blow humid breath.. like when you try to moisten a glass to write on it with your finger ... it helps a lot ............... but especially the amount It's the key ....... you must put a small layer on the crack of the piece to stick....... the receiving piece must be dry....... if is dripping .. or forming a drop..... is too much........... . if you put the right amount you will notice.. when you joining and push both pieces together ..because small little drops will come out from the union of both pieces.... in your case ..... you have a Cyanoacrylate swimming pool there my friend..... it will dry the surface of all that liquid..... taking a long time to harden the Cyanoacrylate inside the union of the pieces......
I’ve always had better luck with Super Glue. I’ve never gotten Krazy Glue to hold over time.
OH HI MURK