We're Not Supposed To Know This About Gore-Tex
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 27 июн 2024
- Gore-Tex dominates the outdoor waterproof coat scene. In this video I look at the difference between the marketing hype and the science-based reality of staying dry in wet weather.
Big shout out to:
@MyLifeOutdoors for his excellent video: • The SCAM Outdoor Brand...
And @wrong_trousers for quite possibly the funniest video on the internet on 'gorpcore': • The Darkside of Gorpcore
Sources:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gore-Tex
glossary.ametsoc.org/wiki/Rel...
glossary.ametsoc.org/wiki/Con...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fick%27...
Why You Should Subscribe! 🚀
(Remember, if you're new to RUclips, Subscribing is free!)
This channel is all about uncovering unconventional wisdom to optimize day-to-day workflows. I cover all kinds of interesting ideas from custom keyboards ⌨️, outdoor gear and camping 🏕️, cars 🚗, EVs ⚡, pocket tools and EDC 🔧, interesting workflows around the home 🏡, and more.
Join this channel to get access to perks 🎁 (joining is a paid membership that lets you support the channel):
/ @benvallack
White label CMS platform for web design agencies and in-house teams (my day job!):
SetSeed: www.setseed.com
My Favourite Products (Affiliate links) 🌟
Special thanks to Lochby for sending the notebook used in this video.
LG G2 - Best TV For Wall Mounting! 📺
Amazon UK: amzn.to/3uKUhpH
Amazon US: amzn.to/3uBFi1n
YOUNGHUNTER Roof Top Tent ⛺
shopyounghunter.com/?ref=xe9a...
Use Code BENVALLACK for a discount
Outin Nano Portable Espresso Machine ☕
outin.com/BENVALLACK
Carpodgo Wireless CarPlay/Android Auto Display 🚘
www.carpodgo.com/?ref=beidjwto
Use code BENVALLACK to get $50 off
Sony ZV-E1 📷
Amazon UK: amzn.to/48JtLM3
Amazon US: amzn.to/3TomaOt
Knipex Cobra XS 🔧
Amazon UK: amzn.to/3DT51nh
Amazon US: amzn.to/3s9LzjG
Thank you for your support! 🙏 Don't forget to like 👍, comment 💬, and share this video with your friends. Let's build a community together! 🤗 
Наука
There are actually environments and use cases where Gore-Tex performs exactly as advertised: snow and cold. During wintertime you are unlikely to face 100% relative humidity, so the membrane can do its thing without much issue. This is reflected in their marketing imagery as well.
Yeah there are situations it will work well. But until they add a cigarette packet style warning telling everyone it will not work in normal rain I will keep banging this drum!
If you live in Ireland, winter is wet and cold and super humid so cold doesn’t always = dry. 90% relative humidity is standard during the winter months here
But when it is cold enough to have snow, and the relative humidity is super low, it's pretty unlikely to rain no? So why do you need the waterproof fabric rather than just something the snow doesn't stick to?
@@rorylong314 isnt the rest of the year wet and humid aswell?
@@ersetzbar. Pretty much. The wetness varies but the humidity doesn’t really. The humidity is what makes our winters, even though it’s rarely below -5c, seem really cold. Equally our summers rarely even get to 30 but sap your energy with the heat and humidity.
Gore-tex is too limited. I love it snowboarding, but that's about it. I don't like it for boots because when it does get wet it stays wet forever which sucks on a long haul. And don't get me started about it's "breathability" once it is under a backpack. I pick a silnylon or any number of other products with good venting options any day over Gore-tex. And I used to have a survival training school in Vancouver Canada, which is in a rainforest and most of my classes were from Nov-Mar, which is the rainy season.
Some high-quality jackets with Gore-Tex membranes & sprays work well in some situations (e.g. light rain during light activity), at least until the coating wears off IME. When it rains hard with a lot of activity, the jackets approach plastic bag comfort. They seem to work well with wind but I'm sure other materials are better. The environmental & health risks seem horrific so I think this should be banned immediately.
So far Gore-Tex is the only material that keeps me dry as a bone on my 90 minute bicycle commute in heavy rain. Tried many things, none worked. Gore-Tex does.
I am so glad I found your channel. Thanks for this informative upload. Looking forward to your next.
As a lifelong backpacker and someone that lives 20 minutes from a ski resort in the Rocky Mountains and skis/snowboards 6-months out of the year...I've had great experience with Gore-Tex. I insist on it for my boots, pants and coats...but also buy pants and coats with long side zips to use on warm days . I'm also a mechanical engineer. I keep experimenting with other "water resistant" products but I haven't been able to replicate the performance of the Gore-Tex.
Interesting and of course it's great that you're having success with it. What kind of life span are you getting and what DWR do you use?
@@BenVallack I think ski outfits get relatively good DWR performance because you just don't wash this stuff that much. I usually refresh my DWR once a season.
I really do agree with everything you are saying about Gore-Tex from a UK perspective. But living in colorado where it almost never rains, but I ski and go out in the snow a lot, Gore-Tex is honestly amazing. I think the problems come about from Gore-Tex trying to escape being a high-end ski clothing product.
Wouldn't the low relative humidity of higher elevation in the higher regions of the US really give the best case scenario for gore-tex?
@@qwie100 absolutely! I would never buy gore-tex outside of winter mountain use, really weirded me out when gore-tex left the mountain part of my athletic wear store.
Here comes the inevitable "but it works for me" comments
Great video! Stabilo point 88's are great! As a stationary geek, the choice of paper, notebook cover, pens/pencils fascinates me. 🤓
This is fundamental to all insulation. You need to have insulation on the outside of the barrier, so the barrier is warmer than the surrounding air and close to the internal temperature. There was no way thier claims were ever going to work.
Excellent analysis!! Inspiring! Conclusions are very damning
I really like the proprietary Ascent Shell layer from Outdoor Research. It is really breathable and comfortable to wear. I use it primarily for skiing.
A good umbrella is what you need 😅
I do like my gortex bivvy bag though!
Umbrellas are defo more breathable and water proof than a jacket 👍🏻👍🏻😂
I have book on "olden day uses for plants'' somewhere that claimed cooking linen cloth in water with birch leafs would yield a water resistant fabric that would work great over a woolen sweater. Never got to try it though, but would be interested in the results.
Interesting!!
I got a goretex coat cause it looked cool. It's good during the winter snow, but it gets hot and humid in the summer and it's just not cutting it for hot and humid weather.
This is the first video on GoreTex that I fully understood. Thank you!
Aramid fibres (Kevlar, Gore-Tex) are great fibres, but they get their strength is they are knitted, and not weaved. The waterproof part of the fabric is not the Aramid fibres, as they are only the reinforcement.
Id really like to see a video talking about ponchos with baffles. By far the best airflow you can get and doesnt compromise on leaking in since you can open the baffles away from the rain every now and then.
Do you have a specific product you can link to?
Marketers for every company on the face of the earth do this. Regardless, the quality of Gore-Tex is S+ tier compared to 99% of their competition on the market. I've used GoreTex products my entire life, and they always kept me dry - One coat is running on 10 years.
Canada single handedly made GoreTex [fashionable]
It is good for Finnish winter when it is a blizzard outside, and you get wet pretty fast because of the snow. But it is quite not comfortable for hiking and sweating in autumn or chill spring.
Yeah it does seem snow is a good use case for this stuff!
Ben, what are your thoughts on Nikwax? Paramo advise you treat the jackets with Nikwax products on a 3 monthly basis. I would be interested in your thoughts.
what about hard/softshell jackets? when I was shopping for a raincoat recently i came to the conclusion that there were two technologies. First 2 / 2,5 or 3 Layer shell jackets or Gore-Tex. Gore-Tex seemed a little more buzzwordy so I went with a 3 Layered shell jacket. What is the difference between shell jackets and these furr imitating jackets?
We found goretex absolutely useless for sailing & coastal work despite once being marketed for it. I never thought the "goretex tax" was remotely worth the extra cost for general foul weather gear, particularly after their patent ran out some years ago & they were no longer the only manufacturers of this type of cloth. I found too many people fell for the "if it's expensive it must be good" angle early & still cling on to the brand as a sort of magical talisman/placebo because of the "sunk cost" fallacy.
I can completely get on board with these theories… and have always thought Goretex to be a rip off. However, I owned a NF Summit series Goretex XCR jacket for about ten years. And wore it most days when the weather required me to. Everyday for work, walking at weekends etc. it never once let me down in any conditions- summer showers, winter rain, snow… I always remained dry. I think I only treated it probably twice during that time with TX Nik wash in… I also owned a NF Hyvent before that and that was as good tbh. Wore these jackets till the hyvent was too scruffy and the Summit got stolen… maybe I’ve never been active enough for the interior to suffer? I did do long hikes 10 miles plus in all weathers regularly at that time. Never climbed or ran tho… maybe it’s only when you push yourself physically that these issues become apparent? And in which case you could argue that for “most” cases Goretex will be absolutely fine. Fine of course for use but it’s still galling that they lie on the adverts. I’ve recently bought quite a lot of Rab gear. One being Gore Packlite and the other being Infinium and Pertex. Haven’t had a proper chance to test them yet though. I’ve more faith in Rab as a brand than Gore, maybe wrongly… but I think that if Rab think Gore is good then it must be ok? Would love a Paramo for testing and would like to try Arcteryx and Patagonia gear too. Just haven’t got enough money for it all 😂😂😂
As an aside I did have a NF Paclite jacket around 2005 and once the DWR wore off- in a short space of time… it was rubbish (still looked nice) but I could never get the same performance back even after reroofing with Nik Wax. Also the taped seems on the inside came unstuck.
What do you think of Futurlight by north face? Or other electrospun highly breathable membranes?
so it looks I'm lucky (or I just sweat and overheat a lot when I use my jacket :)) , my berghaus jacket is close to 9 years old, I think every year is at least once washed to improve breathability and then sprayed to improve water resistance. The only thing that comes apart is stitching of the Velcro straps on the wrists. And that actually is the proof how good this jacket is - I still didn't feel like throwing it away. But the thing is, that jacket costed me A LOT of money back then. And Go Outdoors never discounted it. I just had to put some money away and just pull the trigger when ready. In hindsight I should have bought it faster, and skip two jackets I bought in the meantime, that ended up in charity shops. Same with boots. Wasted years drooling over Scarpa Delta GTX, spend a lot of money on hiking shoes and boots that ended up in a bin after a season (or after a few trips!). Finally pulled a trigger on my pair. 25 Munros later, boots still going strong. I did managed to scrape them on rocks, but It looks awesome, like a patina :)
Ben, how're you getting on with your ShakeDry jacket? As fragile as they are I've had great results with mine. Im doing my best to keep my x3 ShakeDry pieces in good condition to last a little longer!
Yeah I do still keep it handy and use it - it's actually holding up ok although it tends to end up being used as a wind proof as much as anything!
Have you tried a 100% merino wool rain jacket? I live in the Pacific Northwest and have been wearing one for short hikes in the rain and doing errands. While it works, it's not a jacket you want if your going hiking for multiple hours in a day as I have had the rain seep through at the shoulders.
But it's awesome for the average person since it uses 0 synthetic materials and is good enough for errand runs.
Yeah I love merino - funds have not allowed for anything along those lines yet but I'd love something a WeatherWool coat!
Yes, modern DWR coatings are not very durable or long lasting, but 10-20 years ago the industry used fluorocarbon chemistries with longer polymer chains that lasted years between reproofing. Many "C8" compounds have been banned since around 2016 and Gore now uses mostly C6 DWR in their textiles, which definitely dont last as long and need regular reproofing. With more perflourocarbon regulations incoming, Gore and other suppliers will be transitioning away from PTFE membranes and PFC DWR coatings and towards polyurethane and polyethylene membranes and "C0" PFC free coatings. The first of these jackets are already on sale, with Patagonia, Marmot, and Arcteryx releasing models in 2023.
Your alternative material, the paramo jackets, don't have any membrane and solely rely on DWR as I understand it. In this video, you mentioned DWR wears of rather quickly, but doesn't this apply to the Paramo material as well?
Yes indeed - but it's reasonably cheap and very non-toxic. Very unlike the DWR used on Gore-Tex coats. It also works in a very different way.
To expand on Ben's answer with info from his previous video about the Paramo coats, they recommend using NikWax, and I believe they do so from the factory. At least here in the UK, it's available from basically every outdoor shop and is also used for waterproofing certain types of boot and tent.
DWR's can be "rejuvenated" by putting them in the dryer.
It seems you're pretty excited about these Paramo jackets , but I can't understand why they're any different from other well-made soft shell jackets.
If you're not already aware, you might be interested in reading about the ECWCS system the US military paid for, which was supposedly inspired in large part by Scottish mountaineers. Which layers you are suggested to use depends on temperature, and whether you are exercising. This system includes one impermeable waterproof layer, and one gore tex layer.
The gore-tex layer is only recommended for stationery use, above freezing. In this instance you won't be generating much sweat, and will be able to expel moisture in dry intervals.
Otherwise, like with Paramo, most moisture control is acheived with a water-repellent nylon soft shell and body heat.
The acutal mil-spec jackets can be pretty expensive, given they aren't available direct to consumers [to do with flame-retardency I believe], but swatting up on the suggested use relates to the drawbacks with hard or soft shells.
Waxed leather boots for backpacking. Not sure what to do with coats.
also worth to watch Fortnine's video related to this topic (it's a biker channel)
1:51 the music lol
Bit of drama! heh
I agree Ben Gore-tex is a huge con, I have owned several expensive branded Gore-tex jackets and do on occasions get the perspiration on the inside. As you rightly highlight the giveaway sign is the pit zips provided, after all if it was waterproof and breathable then there would not be a need for the zips. Also the DWR does have often a rather limited product.
What about Pertex and the likes of Buffalo shirts/jackets?
whoa whoa. are we missing the bigger pic here? @Ben Vallack you use mac??
Absolutely!
Realy would be happy to move away from membranes, but dwr and waxing fails quickly, and ponchos are fragile and messy. But I keep looking out. There's Ventile, but it's expensive.
Have you seen the video I linked at the end? Seems like a good approach to me.
@@BenVallack Yep I've seen it when it came out. Paramo is expensive and it's not sold where I'm buying. But I've been using Nikwax for 20 years or so. It's great on leather but not so much on cloth. Still, one day I'm hoping to try Paramo or something similar. Scandinavian brands are also moving away from membranes these days, but they cost a lot, too.
@@BenVallack By the way, several layers of an outer cloth work decent in rain - up to 2-3 hours if the coat of your DWR is fresh.
It's indeed bulky and it gets damp, but doesn't really bleed water through. Works best when paired with polar fleece or wool underneath, so there's breathing room and no direct contact with damp cloth.
What if I just grab a hoodie and spray it with something like dwr
It will be shower proof to some extent!
Oh come on, that one is growing a beard now, that's how old that is...
A membrane like that can only work through a difference in steam presuure like intended. And yes, if you put enough force on it you'll also press water through ot, like when wearing a heavy back pack. The stuff was developed for alpine environments where it tends to work as intended.
If you put on whats basically a plastic sheet with tiny holes as soon as you step outside, start to hike and expect not to sweat and never get the idea you might be better off without that thing as long as its not raining, then you're not very clever.
And if it's actually raining, that plastic aheet with tiny holes does perform better than just a plastic sheet as long as the water still gets repelled from it. If the outer layer is soaked you won't have hardly any steam escaping through that either.
Use it for what it's developed, not for what it's advertised and you are good.
'like intended' - I equate marketing with intention. Their marketing suggests they can be breathable and waterproof at the same time. Until they start admitting that this is a drum worth banging.
I wore Gortex jacket and pants during my 4 years as a aircraft mechanic in the USAF in the "northwest" of the USA. It was a god send. Kept me dry.
Vids about keyboards are better than this
In what way? There's only so much I can say about keyboards (not that I'm at that point, there are still keyboard videos coming).
Lotta words there to state that a fantastic seal system component works almost all of the time. Lotta words, pal.
There's a lot to discuss!