Cyberpunk Is NOT Cyberpunk, Actually
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- Опубликовано: 10 июл 2024
- "Any human power can be resisted and changed by human beings. Resistance and change often begin in art, and very often in our art, the art of words.” -- Ursula K LeGuin
Let's jump into the ice bath and do a deep dive on the meaning of cyberpunk--and the crucial role that stories and dreams play in dystopia within the narrative of Cyberpunk Edgerunners!
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CREDITS
Writing/narration - The Bat (www.tumblr.com/ashanimus/) and the Hog
Art - www.artstation.com/fernacular
Editing - The Hog ( / masterc0ntrolprogram )
Music -
Outsider No More by P.T. Adamczyk
Resist and Disorder by Rezodrone (Jason Charles Miller & Jamison Boaz)
Spoiler by DJ Hyper
Modern Anthill by Marcin Przybyłowicz
Been Good To Know Ya by Marcin Przybyłowicz
Cyberpunk 2077 end credits music by Marcin Marcin Przybyłowicz, P.T. Adamczyk, and Paul Leonard-Morgan
Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use.Thank you all so much for watching! 
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Thanks to everyone who joined us! It's always so nice to enjoy premieres with our community. Let us know what you think in the comments and have a really awesome New Year!
Wow, what a video. This really made it clear to me what I want to accomplish with my writing and other work. 🤍
You convinced me to watch this show with five minutes of this video. Five hours later I'm here emotionally wrecked and impressed at how good you are at communicating your thoughts and making it entertaining.
I can relate to David in a deep level, my mom also busted her ass working to give me a better future in a healthcare system that severely underpaid and disrespected her job, and most times I feel a crushing weight of responsibility in getting better financial stability than she had to provide a better life to her.
You made me realize how important it is to dream as an act of rebellion against an uncaring world, even if it's small and dumb, to dream is to stare a cruel system in its face and dare to stand your ground, it's the difference of living and just surviving.
Thank you sm for helping me understand the lesson to take from this depressing show, now you owe me some paper tissues 😅
(Sorry if this came out weird our confusing, it's an emotional subject and English is not my first language. All love form Brazil, you just got a new fan!)
It IS Cyberpunk though! 🎉😂
Love CP2077 and edgerunners.
"Cyberpunk is not about saving the world, It's about saving yourself." - Mike Pondsmith
I hate that quote. It's based on bad premises.
@@DarkPrject Care to explain which bad premises it's based on and why it's bad?
@@DarkPrjectyou hate the quote of the creator? Ok.
@@gabehere the premise is that it's possible to save yourself, while the world goes to hell. That's like saying "Don't keep the ship from sinking, keep yourself from sinking with it!" on a ship without lifeboats, no help, or land in sight, and freezing cold water.
You can't save yourself, if there is no world in which you could be safe is what I'm saying.
@@DarkPrject That is sort of the point, saving yourself doesn't necessarily mean physically, but internally! V in the game does everything to try to survive the situation but finds what matters most to them in the journey; David is not too different in the end. Saving yourself is like the person floating without a lifeboat in freezing water, coming to terms to why they are fighting so hard in the first place and maybe making peace with their own demise.
"Its more convenient to die and imagine yourself being immortalized rather than live with the reality that people will eventually forget you ever existed" goddamn well said
A happy ending? For folks like us? Wrong city, wrong people.
Johnny cooked with that line. The only time anyone gets their happy ending is when they leave Night City altogether…
Obligatory comment on every single cyberpunk video ever
Shut up
Do you think they would be happier as nomads?
@@saturnianrings3920 Personally, I think there is no such thing as "lived happily ever after" in Nighs City. Streetkids, nomads or even those from the corpo will not experience happiness in this city.
I think I have to argue with your fundamental premise. -Punk isn't about hope, it's not about love. It's about Rebellion. Cyberpunk EXPLICITLY does not do hope. Victory is hard-earned and almost never permanent. You don't win, you scrap together what you can for you and yours and that has to be enough because the system does everything it can to stop you.
Often in Cyberpunk settings, the people who rebel are those who have nothing left. Edge/Shadowrunners are people who gave up/lost the chains that hold you to society. Your very existence is in opposition to the systems of power, and you suffer for it.
Lucy doesn't get out of Night City because she has a dream. She gets out because almost everyone she cares about dies making sure she gets it. Going out in a blaze of glory and being immortal isn't an actual goal. It's all that's afforded to you when the system has taken everything else. You don't have anything else, you might as well leave a mark.
Punk means a lot of things to a lot of people, but I think what you could probably more directly agree with is that it's about passion. You don't rebel out of apathy; the apathetic give up and take what they're given. To have nothing left is NOT to be hopeless, especially if you're fighting for anything better than what you have. That's hope, that's rebellion and, when it's against the corporate system, that's punk.
As a personal insert, the narrative that anti-establishment troublemakers are brave or heroic for taking their lives, or that it's what you do when you "don't have anything else", is a pro-establishment position. In a world of strictly corporate interest, the ruling class are better served by you dying to "leave a mark" than you surviving another day to disrupt and spread influence. It can be a comfort for people living under such extreme circumstances to feel they have that agency, but it's a false choice. Die under their system, or die by your own hands under their system. They win, you lose. Unacceptable. Survive, and keep fighting for a better tomorrow!
Even so, cp2077 and Edgerunners dont embody the spirit of cyberpunk
Like a different recent anime does, Akudama Drive
Even if that mark is just a blood stain that won't be on the pavement more than a few hours?
well said
well what can you expect from someone who think solarpunk is punk at all...
@@revanamell1791 well that is a kind of mark I guess, and even if you throw a nuke, they will just rebuild, even if may not last, but more than that, is going out on your terms
The “meat wagon” in cyberpunk lore is pretty much the poor people option for medical options if they couldn’t afford trauma team. But in lore they were also known for selling organs as a side business. So it’s heavily implied Gloria was straight up killed so they could sell her cyberware.
Edit: changed “organs” to cyberware. With how much technology jumped between 2020-2076 organ cloning makes harvesting obsolete. So they most likely harvested her CYBERWARE if they did kill her.
Where is it implied? By what?
@@off-topiconhottopic2815 night city sourcebook. There’s a service called the “meat wagon” that’s the cheaper medical services. (Again they also kill and sell their victims organs) When trauma team scans David and his mom and they turn out to not be the client, they say “leave them to the city meat wagon”. And just the general cheapness/sketchyness of the “nurse” he talked to was weird. She’s stable and fine but then just dies from “overwork” and the only option for David is cremation.
In the Cyberpunk RED core rule book, it says that tissue cloning is so advanced and widespread by 2045 that REO Meat Wagon no longer steals body parts. There's no money in stolen organs well before the time of Edgerunners.
@@datDrowningFish just read that part. Haven’t gotten into red yet. They just changed their game to charging very high prices. But there’s also lore that counters that. Skavs quite literally get their main bank off of SCAVENGING cyberware/organs Also you forget the “EMT” who wanted to kill David and sell his sandy, when he bleed out when he did the chip stealing job with Lucy. It never said if the EMT was trauma or meat wagon (if it was trauma it just reinforces my point even more tbh). If they’re not harvesting organs, they’re very likely to harvest cyberware. Which isn’t really much of a change. The lore books (even RED) kinda go out of there way to point out that MEATWAGON is sketchy af. so they’re definitely not above cyberware harvesting. Especially if it was a trauma team EMT that was willing to sell David’s cyberware. Like I said it’s heavily “inferred” David’s mom was killed for her organs/cyberware. It’s not conclusive
@@vapidwisconsin3405 David had a military grade enhancement. What did Gloria have besides a bog standard neural link? I find it hard to believe it's "heavily inferred" based off what you've said.
17:52 the statement of only Lucy surviving is wrong Falco also survives. Because you can get David's jacket in game and after that you get a message from him telling you to not start a search for Lucy
Absolutely everyone says Lucy is the only one who survived and I'm always confused - but hey being forgotten is probably a benefit for Falco!
Lucy better appear in the next game.
The ethos of being immortalized by dying in a blaze of glory makes Saburo's Relic all the more sinister. Death for the rank and file and literal immortality for the ultrawealthy
I mean Lucy's dream was also influenced by the world she lived in, she didnt just wish to escape Arasaka, she wanted to fly to the moon. We see at the end how heavily commodified the whole trip was and that it was nothing in comparison to the relationships she had had with other people. Her dream was in a way just a product advertised as something grander than it actually was, as a single thing that upon consuming would finally make her happy. In that seanse Rebeca was wiser because she did her best to just live in the moment.
Lucy was raised by Arasaka, so she wanted to get as far away from them as possible. In regards to achieving her dream, yes, it is bittersweet. She made it, but she lost everything to get there, including the person she loved most. All that remains is the hollow victory and what she chooses to do going forward.
In regards to Rebecca, she's one of my favourite characters from the show. I'd love to do a video about her and her value as a dear friend to David, as she is ironically way more present in David's life than Lucy is.
I appreciate the insightful take!
@HedgehogEditor Thank you for your response! Regarding Arasaka from the video game we know that they likely had some secret labs on the moon, and thus were active there. But it was only mentioned in Phantom Liberty, which was released after the show, so I shouldnt probably look to much into it. Regardless of that, from what I remember from the show the dream to get to the moon was heavily ephasized and portrayed as a separete thing than escaping the Arasaka. And if escaping Arasaka was the most important thing for Lucy then why did she live in a city with a lot of their influence? She could have settled in a place dominated by militech for example. Maybe different place wouldnt make her safer and maybe people behind the show just wanted her to be in the Night City. There are a lot of unknowns but I think that the dream of flying to the moon was a way to buy happines instead of looking inwards. A beacon of hope, even if a false one. Thats just my opinion and its up to interpretation.
I feel like the "hope" isn't the same kind of "hope" I view cyberpunk through. I usually view cyberpunk through the hope that we avert the kind of future portrayed by seeing where we've strayed. Explore struggles before they're more than a thought, and find hope for a future that responds to it in time. At least on these fronts, Cyberpunk Edgerunners is cyberpunk to me. Cyberpunk 2077 sometimes falls more into the pit-trap of not selling its own radical nature enough, but Edgerunners I think does it well.
Ehh watch Akudama Drive and compare it to edgerunners
how does the game not sell its own radical nature enough? i don't think this is true at all, it's just as a player you become accustomed to the world
Watch Blade Runner and compare it to both. @@V2ULTRAKill
The idea is - they think they are rebelling, not playing by the rules, pulling themselves by the bootstraps. It's just that they're wrong, they're still part of the entire system, they ultimately still have no control. Bladerunner showcases this theme as well, the only way to really rebel is to leave the whole thing behind, which is something you can do in cyberpunk the game as well, if you reach this very conclusion. If you think about all the other most famous cyberpunk media, ghost in the shell, akira, they're not too different. Matrix is perhaps the exception, but it's a very different type of world.
Someone gets it.
Yep - Lucy got to the moon, but realized it means nothing - she still needs food/drink/sleep/friends/etc and the only way to avoid the system is to avoid money - not many are willing to revert back to the stone age and live alone like that - I'd imagine many who try this go crazy from the solitude, it's difficult to convince others to "unplug" completely. Cyberpunk assumes the world is a dystopia, and all that matters is you fight it no matter how pointless that is. Top 0.1% control the government, but they are just people; with enough information, they can be found and targeted, one at a time, but it still changes nothing. Anonymous is a stand-alone-complex, you could argue 2021 storming of US Capitol was as well. Take care out there.
you can also rebel by eliminating any and everyone in your way.
Sure, if you ignore the numerous rebellions and revolutions through history that were successful then your take is absolutely true. A damn shame revolutions and revolts never succeeded or were the catalyst for change in society... You also have to reject the very basis of the punk genre which is rebellion and punching up even if it kills you because it is the right thing to do, but who cares about those trivial things.
Honestly this is why I love this Cyberpunk IP so much. I might be biased, because it was my gateway to the genre. I love others too like Blade Runner, Ghost in the Shell, Akira, etc, but with the world of Cyberpunk 2077, and of course the original TTRPG that its based from, there's so much focus on the city and the city itself is like the main character or antagonist. I find that concept so compelling.
V: Sometimes wonder if I'll ever see anything more beautiful...
Kerry: I have. Doesn't matter, though. Night City's not somethin' you ever forget. Just doesn't letcha.
V: Think I know what you mean
Kerry: You ever feel like the city doesn't give you a choice? you either burn alive in it, or you never existed at all.
I watched it on release and IT NEVER even crossed my mind that David Martinez references king David. Great analysis
the problem with david is that no one told him that you shouldn't try to move up the ladder. the ladder can only be dismantled if you want a better life. if you want to help your family you need to destroy it. this is why everyone lost by the end. and that is the reason this story is realistic, because in real life most of us will try ourselves to death trying to succeed in a system that we should be dismantling
Fuck...
@@Zynet_Eseled i will sure try to fuck this year thank you. :P
Communism?
@@saturnianrings3920 personally i prefer anarcho communism, due to the failings of the communist party in my country, but yeah
@@hellNo116 oh, ok…
If Neuromancer (that popped up for like 0.5s as image) is not cyberpunk because it lacks hope then I dont think the lable is really worth anything at all.
I'm stealing from wikipedia but I think Cyberpunk being the "Film noir" of the scifi genre isn't a bad angle to explain the direction.
Adam Smasher in 2020 had one line about his Humanity "Yeah, right..." - dude was killing people for sport for ages.
Its weird because I think because so many characters are asleep and when they try to break free - fail that makes cyberpunk cyber.punk. The main character of Pondsmith's Cyberpunk could be seen as Johnny Silverhand but really he isn't - because the world didn't even see him as the main guy. Arasaka went after Alt, not him. The people around him had dreams and worked towards something else. They just didn't succeed. But some do, like lucy. The characters are wrong about life. A lot of the smaller stories around it like Black Dog also nudge a different angle.
The PoV just isn't perfectly centered on the one that makes it, the one that dreams :D
A very underutilized aspect of that specific cyberpunk world is that the spacers are free, they broke free after the 4th Corp war. Its why going to space is seen as the escape it is (in Edgerunners and Phantom Liberty) - because these people there did dream and they did break free. And in their sphere of influence things are better. Night City just isn't - but Richard Night had a dream for it too.
Great video though! I dont know if my comment makes much sense, I just think the failures give a lot of weight to how much dreaming is worth it despite the possibility (or in some cases, certaintiy) of failure.
Editor here,
There is definitely a ton of overlap between cyberpunk and corporate dystopia. I admit, Neuromancer falls into both categories pretty well-- maybe a better book to use as reference was something like Children of Men or 1984? Something along those lines. Oh well! But yeah, Pondsmith's version of Cyberpunk is about fighting for yourself, not fighting for the world-- this is a core theme in the video game, and to an extent Edgerunners as well, only the protagonist doesn't fight for himself, he fights for Lucy. Johnny Silverhand is an interesting character I'd love to do a video on. I think the writer of Edgerunners (Rafal Jaki) took Cyberpunk in a slightly different, but equally interesting direction, focusing on the way that corporate dystopia destroys its populace and the only way to escape is to actually leave, lest you die to further feed their empire.
Thank you for your interesting comment. We appreciate positive engagement with our material, even if you disagree with our conclusion.
@@HedgehogEditor I mean Neuromancer is why we even have the term cyberpunk. I dont think I'd agree with Pondsmiths Cyberpunk lacking punk still, broadly across all stories. They are just not past the point of it being bad - because the world isn't. But I can see your angle.
Btw the editing was preem!
Yeah I really don’t understand the gatekeeping with the term “cyberpunk” here.
This is the one thing I took issue with in this video. Blade Runner and Neuromancer are the foundational works of the cyberpunk genre. If the works that created the genre aren't part of it, then what is? The term becomes useless. And all the other aesthetic genres probably wouldn't have -punk as a suffix if cyberpunk didn't exist and popularize the naming convention. I think you're taking the -punk suffix a little to literally.
@@CthulhuLovesU It also ignores that punk by it's very definition is about rebellion against the system.
Ironically, liberalism, at least in the traditional sense, is ample ground for punk art, in a world which increasingly cracks down on basic freedoms.
Is Cyberpunk Edgerunners the best adaptation of a video game? I think it is, EVERYTHING you see in the show, you can find on the game, the same streets, the same spots, the places, the same vehicles, the guns, the cyber implants, you even have some interaction with Falco at some point, is, brief, by text message, BUT it is something, also you can get David's jacket in game, and Becka shotgun...
It seens fitting that the only place where you can buy the David Martinez drink, is in the bar called Afterlife, that before being a bar, was a morgue...
Drink was added post launch, in update 1.5, Rebecca's shotgun, quest with Falco / David's jacket were added in 1.6. The graves were updated in 2.0. So, yeah, the content from the anime was not present in game since day one.
@@VORASTRA no, but those are personal items from characters from the show, the city itself with all that is contained in it was there day 1.
I still can't get over the Smasher vs Robocop fanfic. "So, it's personal then. Good, more meat for the slaughterhouse!" "Your move, creep"
this is such a refreshing take on dystopian fiction and it infuriates me that it's not being thought of enough. im so tired of nhilism rotting people's brains like it's the only option we have in a dystopian world. it's not! people care about other people! we can be kind! we can restore! we can always fight for one another! radical change is possible and history will tell you that. refusing to believe in that fact is what ultimately seals a society's fate to doom. i wish more of media can portray that thought. i mean, that's what true punk is supposed to be! also, great video!
To me thats the most infuriating thing in the cyberpunk game, it refuses to allow you to actually fight corps, you are punished or refused when you try to express your agreement with violent resistance in anything but the ending. Why can i not only take anti corp jobs, sure make the game harder, and show me that this is the harder path, kill my friends, hurt me emotionally, but let me choose this resistance, or give in to the corps influence and take the easy way out and get the power fantasy, and save yourself
There are plenty of jobs in the game that are fucking over the CORPs even if in small ways, and you don't really have to choose corp aligned jobs (Really most of the main mission doesn't make you do anything of the sort if you don't want to) but V's concern isn't changing the world or fighting the system. Its really just survival, and when that's not an option at least do it with some glory. Its not a story about resistance.
You should just organize a table game for that.
@@PropheticShadeZ
because people want realism rn. just give it a while, and the more "fantasy-esque" stories will be back in demand.
"We are living in a dystopia right now"
And they called ME crazy, when I said that 😓
If anyone called you crazy for saying that, that person has led a life privileged to an extent I can't even really imagine
Great video - it's a perspective on it the story I hadn't heard of before, and it's an interesting one. I'm not personally one for sticking to rigid definitions of words - 'Cyberpunk' is so associated with corporate dystopia these days that the two are functionally interchangeable as far as I'm concerned - but the points about the genre are valid regardless.
Personally, I've always taken a different interpretation of Lucy's story. I don't think that Lucy really *did* get her happy ending. To me, it was that David, and maybe even Lucy herself, never realised that what she wanted wasn't *really* to go to the moon, but what it represented; a sense of safety and comfrot, which she did have with David before everything went wrong. I think *he* was her real escape from Night City, but because he never realised that, he died getting her the dream he *thought* she wanted, not what she *really* wanted. During the escape from Arasaka, they're framed together with the moon behind them as they fall, and there's a line when she's on the moon that sticks with me - 'an experience which no braindance can simulate'. Yet, when she's out there walking around, it's that braindance she remembered - not David in his final moments, or even his buffed out allstar form, but the scrawny kid he was when they first me, during their braindance together.
A couple of other thoughts:
- As I recall, Adam Smasher's Empathy stat in the original 2022 rulebook was literally listed as 'Yeah, Right', and he's stated to have been a bloodthirsty psychopath long before becoming a full-borg.
- The crew has two survivors! Falco also survives to 2077; you can meet him in the questline following up on Edgerunners. The entire crew also had gravemarkers added by a later update, implicitly by Lucy; Gloria gets one, too.
Thanks for making this in any case, I enjoyed it a lot!
This is incredibly thoughtful and interesting, I'm going to mull on that. And yeah this was one of those where in talking about the genre it became a bit semantic but I appreciate the benefit of the doubt and your engagement here. Love these tidbits from the game, and thanks so much for watching.
As much as I love Falco, he is a secondary character as far as the narrative is concerned. He didn't start with the crew and he has no development or arc-- he's the driver! And he's good at it! But he had no deep connection to anyone in the crew aside from maybe Kiwi and at the end Rebecca.
@@Kaipyro67ALTHe was always there. At the turbo bar you can see him watching Pilar do the alcohol tricks
@@Malice_doll Yeah, literally as a background character. Falco doesn't get an actual voice line until episode 7.
My head cannon has always been that Adam can use sooooooo much cyberware because he was already basically a high functioning cyberpsycho
Every sentence in this video is on point. Great stuff and honestly one of the best cyberpunk essays on youtube!
That's very high praise, thank you. There are some really good ones out there, so it's much appreciated!!
Amazing video as always! Please continue to make content like this; the media u talk about, the writing of ur videos, and the ideas u have surrounding ur interpretation of the media never fail to be meaningful and phenomenal. Thx to everyone involved :)
This is such a sweet thing to say. The hero of this one is definitely the Hog, he worked super hard on the editing and has a big paw in the writing but of course these things are always a team effort. Thanks for your support!!
You're a great narrator! Night City has such a depressing undertone to it's design you can tell the developers really tried to create a believable world
You made me cry this was soooo good I love this channel so much thank you everyone one the team!
I was busy during the premiere and was so sad! Spectacular video as always, this is my favorite video essay channel :)
Thank you so much, we hope to see you at the next premiere! :D
Is there something to along the lines that it feels like in the current period of the Cyberpunk setting that the rebels themselves are monetised by the system.
Johny looks crazy in comparison, but it is like the rebels themselves have been manipulated into not realising they work for the system rather than actually having something they believe in.
In 77 I particularly think of Judy who tries to bring back the spirit of the Mox to protect working women and men, but it feels like the implication that it won't get anywhere. The leadership of the Mox more works like a business looking out for itself rather than the original spirit. And I think it is hinted that what she fights for will just be torn away by retaliation.
17:37 He does technically die a legend cuz in the afterlife in the game you can buy his drink which only being served by making a name of yourself in night city and dying a legend and is also very well known around the people around the main character V.
Excellent analysis and well presented. Lots to ponder. And a lot that I absolutely vibe with.
I don't agree with the premise though. Cyberpunk is not hope. Yeah - the cyberpunk genre inspired a bunch of other alternative tech genres named using "punk". And of those, solarpunk leans heavily in to a non-nihilistic and generally hopeful back-drop. But cyberpunk has always been seeped in nihilism. Cyberpunk is absolutely cyberpunk.
Cyberpunk is born in the 80s as a reflection of the times. The punk piece comes from powerlessness felt in mid-70s UK and US/NYC that spawned the punk subculture. Sure - punk included anti-corporatism. But it also embraced other aspects (DIY, anti-authoritarianism,etc.) that would encourage personal freedom and rejecting the powerful elite who's economic policies robbed disaffected individuals of a future. Freedom by not participating in an antagonistic system. A choice made ultimately by the most hard core at any cost. Good call about Cyberpunk 2077 / Edge Runners being about today. The themes are even more apparent in our culture decades later. Of course... no cyberpunk work would be the first scifi story using a future backdrop to explore current issues.
So should we embrace the nihilism so often present in the cyberpunk genre? Absolutely not. Cyberpunk shouldn't be any more aspirational than _1984_. These are warnings, not ideals. Take that a step further, I don't interpret that Cyberpunk 2077 is selling us on Night City. I don't even buy the notion that just because a cyberpunk becomes legend by how they die that a grand death should be a goal. Becoming a legend is for suckers. Its not the death that gets a name at the Afterlife - its the fight.
The fight is everything in cyberpunk. Bruce Sterling summed up the cyberpunk genre as "high tech low lifes." William Gibson furthered that a common theme in cyberpunk is technology being used in unintended ways. It's punk DIY; using the tools of the system in service of you and yours rather than the system. Manipulation of systems - hardware, software, political, and bureaucratic (read: hacking). Crime and violence if need be - but not always. All this in direct conflict of power structures that manipulates and/or has been manipulated by the elite for personal gain at the expense of the masses. The fight.
If the cyberpunk genre offers hope it isn't because it provides it. Cyberpunk invites us to stare in to a dark mirror. We can surrender to the nihilistic void reflected there. Or we can look at it and decide that the fight... any fight... that resists this world is worth it. Even if it's no earth-changing revolution. Even if it doesn't get us a cocktail named after us. The fight is enough.
Cyberpunk TTRPG author Mike Pondsmith noted that his world wasn't about saving the world but about saving yourself. Maybe if enough of us save ourselves and each other - we change the world. The fight is enough.
a tad offtopic here, but considering the quote from Mike, i wonder how they will stick to this philosophy in the coming sequel where the Blackwall, Night corp and rogue AIs will eventually become a major plotpoint and how they will stick to not saving the world but yourself
@@cringus8519 fair question. But absolutely doable. We get caught up in the machinations of the corps in NC. Yet we don't tumble any. We might upset plots. We might end a career or two. But the corps keep functioning. NC is still NC.
We might be bouncing up against some AIs, Night Corp, and even the Blackwall. But at best, we might dent the universe. Screw up some plots. End some careers. Make something happen for some little people who might have been screwed without our intervention. Which is super important to them. But it doesn't change NC... or the Net.
We shall see. I'll be looking forward to it.
me too@@arandomnamegoeshere
In context of what you just said, Cyberpunk 2077 does give you the choice of having your story be dystopian (Least Resistance, The Devil, The Tower, The Sun) or Punk (Temperance, The Star, King of Wands)
wow, I loved this video. especially:
"burn to keep others warm", how Lucy is a light drowned by the lights of the city and how Adam means man.
I subscribed, cause this essay was very enjoyable, it was well written, paced, quirky, and fun and cause I was told that I mattered, and I really needed that. Thank you.
This was suggested to me before I headed off to bed, it piqued my curiosity, after watching it you deserve my subscribe.
Thank you!
@@idlescree To quote a not so good person, "We will watch your career with great interest"
Second
Great work on this! I love the powerful message you gave at the end of the video! I'm going to try my best from now on to watch every single video you guys make! I can tell there's passion and great messages in everything you create! Take care! REEEEEEE!
AAAAAA THE SONG OF MY PEOPLE!! We try really hard to be constructive in our approach to media analysis. Thank you for enjoying it with us!!!
@@idlescree Your effort is clearly well-spent! You achieve the goals you set out before you!
And no problem! It was my pleasure to watch! Hope you have a great day! Can't wait to see what else you have in store! Stay awesome!
Adam's humanity stat is latterly "yeah right...." he is no longer human.
Thank you for the end of this video, especially for the term 'radical empathy'. I had that in my mind for some years now, being confused in this society split right down in the middle.
Thank you so much this made my weekend! I want to fight you about your dogmatic definition of "cyberpunk" mkay but! this argument about cyberpunk vs corporate dystopia is a really helpful lens for talking about what happens in the story, I feel like I will understand it so much more on the rewatch now
Awesome video. Heavy topics, but really well done!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I have to say, Adam Smasher was oddly wholesome at the end of Edgerunners when he took a liking to David, appreciating the challenge of the fight, and even liking his personality. Adam Smasher almost made a friend for himself.
That last bit almost made me want to click off, it was so heavy and dark, rightfully so because it’s hard to exist sometimes, but I knew something was coming after it, I hoped there would be and there was. I’m gonna sit with that for a bit, I will not give into despair I will do everything I can, I am light, I will not give in
I lovedddddd this video essay. Keep up the great work. The end actually motivated me to enjoy life and those around me in a more meaningful way.
Amazing video as always. Y'all always outdo yourselves.
Thank you. The Hog's editing on this one is some of my favorite he's done so far and it definitely ends up adding life and energy to the script to an astounding degree.
"Witness me, for I am giving meaning to a worthless life through my death! Even if my eyes are the only one's to witness it, it will give birth to meaning..."
pretty much what I always thought that phrase in Mad Max meant, but maybe I'm just too high lol
edit: correction in sentence phrasing lol
No, your not... i also saw that meaning too...
I find funny that when Fury Road came out, folks were saying the movie was too woke... but in reality is e opposite of it, if you look away from the superfiacial plot of: "save the womans from patriarcal oppression..." theres a lot going on with all the power struggles, this "witness me" line is clearly a message of younger mens dying in wars for old decript mens desires, it does shine light on the oppression where even mens suffer from society...
That was so. So. Good. I came here for essentially a review of Edgerunners, but I got so much more through existential introspection and a surprisingly direct and truthful explanation of society as it is today. I find the bat and animals thing kinda weird, but God DAMN are you on point. Subscribed.
Thank you for the kind words, we are definitely kinda weird! Thank you so much for watching, we hope you enjoy our back catalog of videos and everything to come!
in the strangely appropriate words of silver the hedgehog. "despair is a luxury none of us can afford." talk is cheap. but bold ideas are priceless.
i teared up at the end. beautiful prose
What about Falco?
You said only one member of David's gang survived and showed Lucy on screen, bit in the game, you get to text message with Falco and gain David's jacket. Thus, two members survived.
Yeah, but Falco's a background character until episode 7. He's cool, but he kinda just shows up for jobs and that's it.
@@Kaipyro67ALT I suggest you watch the show before commenting on it with an opinion.
Riddle me this!
Who knocks out Maine when he goes cyberpsycho on Kiwi and in which episode this happens?
Who participates in the fun times montage when David joins the gang and is sitting right next to him in the strip club, enjoying a BD and in which episode this is?
@@ticijevish Falco is in one scene in episode 6 with no dialogue. He's also in episode 4 with David and Pilar and like four other background characters. With, once again, no dialogue.
@@Kaipyro67ALT Falco is an active participant in the Tanaka operation, he is a friend who hangs out with the chooms, and he is the getaway driver for the crew in the second half of the story.
He is a fully-fledged crew member and the second survivor of the gang.
@@ticijevish Dude, don't be a smart-ass and try to act superior then change gears when I show your ass up.
I never said he isn't a getaway driver, I never said he doesn't hang out. I said he shows up for jobs and doesn't have voice lines until episode 7 out of 10. He's a great character, and I love Matt Mercer his voice actor, but he's a minor character when compared to literally anyone else in David's crew.
This is the Greatest "review" i have ever seen (i don't really think review is the right word but i can't think of what the word I'm looking for is)
Commentary? Video essay?
@@Kaipyro67ALT video essay feels like it devalues it commentary is better but this feels more insightful
This is videa is crazy good! Well done, Idle Scree.
Probably one of the more mature takes on the show I have seen. Your script was great. Will sub.
"Hyper capitalism" is not a fitting word IMO... It's more about the technology and its distribution IG (as an illiterate person saying). + I don't think it's about "future". As a case in point, Mr. Robot is a Cyberpunk in the context of my argument. The driving factor is technology, everybody is F-ed over like a tragedy. Where, but the axes of "power" and "money", "tech" also can independently shape the world. I'd love a reference (for example an article) where it clearly states these definition you rely on. The tragedy also doesn't really come from the unrealised redemption of the protagonist. IMO it comes from the failure of the society regardless of the obvious signs. In other words, it's post-tragedy, a cautionary-tale... "The blaze of glory" in such settings or for that matter being a "punk" is not to make a change. Is to get stumped trying, while knowing you had no chance of "making a change", yet didn't go out easy. Like my point is, in such a mindset, there is no "choice" to "go out with a bang". It's the natural conclusion like the famously said line in The Shawshank Redemption, "Get busy dying or get busy living" (skip thro life). It's natural like the apathy. A punk leaving his town is a joke to put it mildly. The punk way is to "clear the account" (build or destroy) the current system.
I'm just saying, it's a tale of Nihilists for the Nihilists. There is no "coming back" from that. It's not a fitting example for the mindset of "we must stay positive". The whole point is to accept the absurdism and go for it head first.
Your message is good, positive and I respect your point of view. I'm just giving my two cents. I just think your strings of wise words would effect harder if not for the not-so-strong connection to the example. It's like teaching thermodynamics with examples in middle ages Spanish poetry, I'm sure one as talented as you can make it, but not that it is the best example to use.
That brief clip from Nausicaä (while the most dire situation in the movie) made me smile. Love Nausicaä. 💙
As for Edgerunners... I don't have anything to add about the story and themes, but I'll say that Rebecca ended up being my favorite character, so her sudden and unceremonious death hit like a truck. (Or an Adam Smasher, I guess.)
Yeah she really left an *impact.*
I really enjoyed the analisis! Especially the names, I havent payed attention to it before! However, with Lucy, it might be more of an accident more than anything. Jaki said the character is named after his mother- Lucyna. Basically, "Lucy" in polish
honestly, the naming conventions went over my head because those names are so, SO common in latam that someone named david martinez son of gloria martinez just would never rise any eyebrous because there are probably hundreds of those all over that region
That's why sending Songbird to the moon is my ending. Batgirl you're video essay is preem!
i thinn rhat's why i love Cyberpunk 2077 and Phantom Liberty infinitely more than Edgerunners, because they actively engage in the complexity of the dystopian world that is Mike Pondsmith's Cyberpunk world. some endings in 2077 embrace the blaze of glory way of going out, while some others embrace the quiet way out through V's ever growing and changing perspective on Night City, either by leaving the city entirely or embracing the reality of what Night City really is, and in turn not submitting to the meat grinder that it is. Phantom Liberty's narrative is about how Songbird frees herself, much like Lucy does, but through the expansion the reality of her situation and how it effects not just her and the NUSA government, but also the entire world and how you play a pivotal role in which way the story goes, it serves as a mirror for V for the main game. i think Edgerunners fell short in its portrayal of cyberpsychosis, but i love how David dies. i interpreted Maine's "just keep running" line as a warning to David to give up being a merc, because it'll just get him killed. David, either to support Lucy or for himself, ignores it, and flew too close into the sun and met Adam Smasher. i'm really glad for what CD PROJEKT RED did with Mike Pondsmith's universe, and i hope they continue their exploration of it in the future.
absolutely excellent video. I love Edgerunners and 2077 so much, and this really was a great way of putting things. 10/10
Absolutely phenomenal piece! I loved every bit of it and related way too much with the analysis (both in how I've seen modern America becoming, and in a personal feeling)
Stumbled across this by accident. What an awesome video. I'd love to hear about the game, but that's really a time consuming endeavour, but only because of how long the game is, but also about how many facets it has, once you stop chasing the main quest and go explore.
Dan, that was a amazing video!!
I like the resist and disorder in the beginning I listen to it all the time its so good, as well as kill the messenger
lovely vidya looking forward for more of this kind
Im happy RUclips recommended this video.
Thanks for watching, we're happy too! :)
Amazing video! You deserve thousands and thousands more subs 😍
Damn! I'm glad I found your channel!
Okay, your video looks really cool... but I haven't gotten around to seeing Edge Runners yet. So I'm going to put this on the back burner. Hope the vid dose well for you though.
As someone lost to our real world night city, I appreciate this video giving me a reason to keep going. I’ll dare to dream, if only a little.
Question
where did you find the definition of -punk being fundamentally about hope?
I get where you're coming from if we use that definition, but i'm having a hard time finding tbat definitiom
The definition has been rightfully squinted at for being too intellectually cute on my part, but the idea of 'punk' as a suffix that is associated with hope come from historical observations and running themes of the books (primarily) and other media that tend to identify with it or are assigned the title. Rebellion, meaningful rebellion, is about hope. It's hope for a future that is better, seeing something beyond the misery of current circumstance.
@@idlescree Makes sense. Goimg off of that I can def see what you mean, since i don't think when Mike was first writing 2020 that the world was gonna get much better due to the actions of your characters or Johnny Silverhand. I don't think it's enough to get me to habitually use Cyberpunk for this kind of setting, but I see the point
If i were to relate it to something else, that being the Deus Ex videogames, I'd say Deus Ex is somewhere between corporate dystopia & cyberpunk, because while yes it's mostly a corporate dystopian world (esp in places like Hengsha circa 2027), the endings are typically chosen with the idea that they May make for a better world.
It might not actually do so, & "better" could mean different things to different people, hence how politicized cyberware is in Deus Ex. But when Jensen or Denton or whomever make a choice, they want to make the world a better place to live in. Usually giving Jensen or Denton a lot info both pro & anti-augmentation via the story & sidequests, to make a choice based on your beliefs of what would be best
(Now I have my issues with the endings, but that's not relevant to the Heart of what the endings are meant to be thematically)
@idlescree I'd argue that a idea of hopeful rebellion is a core theme of the anime as well as the game. It just takes a stance that it can be a trap. At the end of the game and the show, arasaka and militech are just as strong as ever. It's a system bigger than any one man, even a nuke (and several nuclear wars) didn't bring any meaningful change. That's why I like the nomad ending so much. The only way to beat the house is to take your chips and leave.
@@KornyeEast I both agree & disagree.
Because if we talk about the reality of said rebellion in universe, both DataKrash & the Nuke really just strengthened corpo power in the long term
But if we're talking about the human soul, inherent motivations among us, then I'd agree. Because things like the endings where you raid Arasaka are with the belief you can actually take them down, even if you're too far gone to save yourself. Not to mention various sidequests involving the greater world, where you're basically a pawn, but have a bit of say in how it goes down (Most things with NetWatch, the Brazil/Russia thing in Dogtown & Russia/China conflict in Watson for example). Or the ending(s) of PL
Edgerunners i'd say doesn't have that part as well as the game (tho i'll be real i spent a long time doing all the gigs & hustles, I'm on Gimme Danger right now), since I don't think the gang had any hope of taking down Arasaka (was mostly an extraction mission that was successful, but went horribly wrong). It was moreso David's hope of Lucy getting a better life than anyone else having much going on there.
Like in contrast, Becca wanted David to be happy, which wasn't quite as big of a dream as Lucy mecessarily, though she acted to protect said happiness. But aside from that, she's someone without big aspirations/hopes of a better future and is actually enjoying herself. Like you look at Becca in a vacuum and you wouldn'y think NC sucks as bad as it does when looking at basically any other member of the crew
Punk has always had ties to nihilism though. I wouldn't say that has any ties to "hope" at all.
Can I just say, the way you censored the art for RUclips monetization made me laugh way too hard.
Art finds a way!!!
Hey, I gotta use SOMETHING.
Loved this video essay, my only tiff is that i always seen Lucy as the Protagonist of edge runner in the sense that she is only character that isn’t just apathetic angst incarnate, but instead actively dreams of escape and change, she isn’t just willing to accept the way things are but wants the world around her to change wether it be through actual change or escaping the world as they know it. Cyberpunk fiction is riddled with characters that either rebel, get crushed by apathy, accept the way the world is and try to get ahead, or a combination of the three.
cyberpsychosis isn't actually something you get from too much cyberwear,in the game you can do enough cyberpsycho missions you can find out that companies use cyberpsychos on people with a lot of cyberwear
Awesome essai! Thank you, keep dreaming, keep loving, keep fighting and rebelling! And remember, nothing can kill an idea...
really nice work :D
Such a beautiful analysis, it takes you to an epic ride of mythology and symbolism.
Absolutely incredible! Cheers to those dreaming of a better tomorrow.
The very emblem of arasaka is the emblem that they use for pawn shops just flipped upside down
The is one of the most beautiful video essays i have listened to
Damn you had to start this vid with my fav track Resist and Disorder. 🤟🤟 Also, i totally didnt see the connection with King David. I assumed it was just a randomly chosen name.
Just like how we live in a beautiful World full of nothing but Shit. Night City is a Metaphor of the real World- Beautiful if not for the stains of everyone else, and for them, the stain that is Me. We are indeed remembered for how we died, or our last bad deed, the worst thing about Humanity (to me) is that one bad deed can totally discount any and all good deeds that may have came before- some People make one bad decision after a lifetime of good and that's all they are remembered for- it is messed up but it happens all the time.
Hey, I really appreciate channels that don't censor 'the bad words'- please don't turn the YT crap censoring on, you're better for not doing it- you've earned a sub! Not having to be super-conscious about what I type is really nice.
it's funny to think that we already live in such world, we just don't have iron arms and shining eyes but we already don't care for anyone we don't simpatize, if we lived in night city and didn't know david like we did in the anime we would probably be sitting around those graphic fish and recording all that shit and saying things like "damn you saw how he squashed that green chick ?" or "dude is fucked to be trying fighting Smasher"
Blade runner is a tech noir
That's a very fair estimation. All of its trappings, and its entire story really fall into the category of a futuristic noir detective story. Very little cyber and almost nothing punk about it. But I get why people call it "cyberpunk." The definition at this point is so far removed from the actual content that it's become more of an aesthetic than a category of story.
@@HedgehogEditorin fairness it doesnt help that its awful sequel, 2049 IS cyberpunk
Bladerunner is definitely a noir film. But it basically pioneered the cyberpunk aesthetic. There is no cyberpunk without Blade Runner.
@@CthulhuLovesU sure there is, it would just resemble something like The Matrix, Texhnolyze or Serial Experiments Lain
Great video !
what a great video! I would disagree that the genre needs to be about hope (which as you said the Cyberpunk world, as written by Mike Pondsmith, does not have). But the way you said everything was so perfectly well done.
10/10 vid
Brilliant work.
that ending was lowkey BARS
This was such a great essay! One thing about cyberpsychosis that Mike Pondsmith's character in the game mentions on his radio show is that "cyberpsychosis" isn't a real thing, but rather a way for corps to put blame onto some disorder to take off the blame from the horror they enable. Really, cyberpsychosis is just when people snap, and cannot come to grips with the reality of their situation any longer. Sure the cybernetics exacerbate the problem, but they're hardly the *cause* The reason why Adam Smasher, for example, never went cyberpsycho is because he's fully aware of the nature of what he's doing, he's content with it even; i think that makes him all the more horrifying as a villain. I cannot stress enough however, how good of a take this all was. you definitely have my subscription now, can't way to see what's next
Ooooh interesting. I've learned a lot about the extended lore around the game and such through all the helpful comments and that's a really interesting point to make on this. Thank you!
Love Cyberpunk the main issue imo is technology is both the solution and the problem.
Don’t know how much I can add to the discussion in a comment but I really enjoyed this video essay and it got me thinking.
I think the main cast of edgerunners are actually full of hope, but what makes NC so scary is how it turns that hope against them. One of the things I noticed about David, Lucy, Maine and Becca is that they all *know* on some level that edgerunners are doomed, but their actions betray that they don’t fully *believe* it. They all have hope that they’re going to be the exception to the rule and that things will go differently for them. When numerous characters point this out (Katsuo, Doc, Jimmy, Tanaka, Smasher), whether out of cruelty, curiosity, or concern, David blows them off: he’s special and he just knows it.
Obviously, by the shows conclusion we find out these characters weren’t special at all (at least not by the bloody standards of edgerunning).
Despite this, I don’t think Pondsmith is trying to tell us there is no hope. Rather, I think he wants us to question how we can best use that hope, and train us to see through the manufactured illusions that hijack our dreams for a better life. Edgerunning is a hyper-stylized, hyper-violent metaphor for how capitalism works to fetishize our hopes and sell them back to us as a “lifestyle” (i.e. a product). Tanaka’s attempt to bargain with David is perhaps the best example of this point, as Tanaka spells out edgerunning’s worst kept secret: Every “gig” finds its way back to an office desk. Edgerunners are cash cows; unofficial, disposable workers who don’t even realize they’re doing corpo dirty work-all while consuming corporate made products to boot.
If edgerunners were ever unified, they’d be an army to make NC shudder. So the system co-opts them, and manipulates them into killing themselves and each other by selling hollow facsimiles of the things they truly desire. NC sells sex, because it can’t offer love. Sells fashion, because it can’t offer identity. Sells drugs, because it can’t offer purpose. Sells violence, because it can’t offer change. The tragedy of Edgerunners is David fails to realize he’s hooked on a product until its too late. At the point he tells Lucy the trip to the moon was cheaper then he thought its implied they could have left! But David took all the wrong lessons from Gloria and Maine. Gloria told him to rise, Maine told him to run. They both wanted David to live on and be safe, but through the distorted lens of Night City, were misunderstood by David that what they wanted was for him to be great.
Pondsmith’s often repeated quote:“Cyberpunk isn’t about saving the world, its about saving yourself,” is at its core, hopeful. Lucy escapes-it costs her everything, but her escape is still a faint light at the end of the tunnel. Pondsmith’s world does try to give us hope, however jaded, cautious, and cynical it may be. Self-improvement is the first step for many on the quest for a better, more meaningful, more purposeful life. Many times, before we can save others, we have to figure out how to save ourselves first.
The biblical naming and naming in general went almost completely over my head the first couple of times. Thanks for pointing it out!
I've been trying to pay more attention to archetypes and symbols, and you've pointed a couple out worth considering. Good work!
Glad it was helpful! This is one essay I feel like we learned a lot on, but I'm really glad that you found it of value!
@idlescree It also helps that I devour anything and everything critiquing this anime. I love everything about it and value unconventional angles.
If you take the advanced tech out, cyberpunk feels like a version of US's top 5 cities.
Great video. It makes me wish i still had hope.
Never fade away
How is cyberpunk hopeful? Blade Runner is the quintessential cyberpunk movie and there is no real hope to be had there. I would say the lack of hope, the grime the grind the, utter indifference the world around you has for your existence that is what makes cyberpunk the thing it is. Want another example check out Transmetropolitan there is also no hope to be had there either.
Thanks, i cried near the end
*sips a bat sized mug of audience tears*
It's what we aim to do. lol
"This time, God isn't on David's side", yo, that hits way harder than it should for a random dialogue in a youtube vid lolol
As i said, Cyerpunk 2020 from 2077 and so on is a WARNING, and as of now, we still ignored it.
Nice a positive message about Solarpunk in a cyberpunk video is a welcome plottwist kudos, and a small correction.
Spoilers about Edgerunners ahead, you have been warned:
A second character of the main crew also survives, it's Falco the getaway driver, he even gives you a sidequest ingame in Cyberpunk 2077.
You hit the nail on the head
How dare you make me cry.
You define cyberpunk in a very narrow and particular way that excludes works widely seen as defining examples of the genre. On what basis, and to what end?
First off, incredible job on this video, I subscribed! Extremely well written and put together. You made some good observations in regards to this however, I am of the opinion that Cyberpunk does fall within the confines of the genre. It is Neonliberal without a doubt however I think you could argue that Neonliberal could be described as a sub genre of Cyberpunk. Bleak futures that often rob an individual of their own self in a high tech, low quality of life setting. In Cyberpunk the anime you can see that struggle in David's decent into cyberpsychosis, which is defined in the Cyberpunk Red players handbook as a loss of humanity and the high tech low quality of life aspect is also very present. could you argue that daring to dream in this world of there's in in fact a form of rebellion and therefor "punk"? I DM'd your insta and would love to speak with you guys more about this topic!
Thank you so much for the thoughtful commentary. I feel like I personally learned a lot from making this video--primarily that I need to be way more precise and careful about definitions moving forward. I have really liked hearing everyone's opinions and elaborations on what they think "cyberpunk" means and it has genuinely been such a fun meditation on the topic. Thank you for DMing the insta! We are significantly more active on tumblr but we'll be working to get our socials more in order to connect with our audience!
And yes--the daring to dream part is critical to the rebellion. One must imagine a better world or a different world before the actualization happens, after all.