Old School Taekwondo vs Modern Taekwondo
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- Опубликовано: 25 ноя 2021
- Paul Van Schoyck, owner of Chung's Martial Arts Academy in Mattawan, Michigan, discusses the differences between "the power era" of sport Taekwondo and the modern era. He also shares his opinion on which version of Taekwondo he prefers.
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I would predict that people who don’t like the newer approach (preferring the older one) haven’t done it enough to get good at it. I would encourage you to be skeptical of any critic who isn’t proficient in it. It would be akin to Judo black belts mocking Brazilian jujitsu because they don’t understand the approach and it doesn’t look aesthetically as pleasing to them.
I studie TKD in Master Cung's system in 1994 At Lake Michigan College here in Berrien County under Tu Smith. Is still Around in this area teaching in this area?
Meant is she still around.
@@tommeyer8993 Grandmaster Chung is still running an academy in the Kalamazoo area.
Old school was not about looking good, it was executing the technique properly (speed+power+form), it was not just about hitting your opponent - I believe that was the reason why there were judges. Yes there were a lot more injuries, it was more risky - taking risks was the fun part for me. I got knocked out a couple of times, dislocated some joints, my coach broke his jaw in a tournament - all that stuff teaches me the value of defense.
Not so sure about that. I see many BJJ mocking other arts. I wouldn't say that's a comparison. I think Power is a crucial element, if you go back into TKD History and a little further into TSD, power is developed through proper technique, so both compliment one another. I could write a book on this topic. Thank you for sharing I may get started on that.
As a sports therapist I can say I’ve encountered way less injuries in this new era of tae kwon do
and I been at this for 30 years
I’ve experienced the same thing.
The TKD I did in the 90's was all about the self defense, we even did specific street training not to mention the head of our organisation used to train our Special Forces hand to hand combat. Sport was always very much secondary and used primarily for training purposes
Tell me more.
@@ChungsMartialArts We did everything, grappling, punching and striking with every part of the hand, many many kicks and blocking techniques as well as forms and all the stepped forms. I even needed to use it once in a club when some random guy took a dislike to me. Perhaps it's different over here in the UK? I was with the TAGB and loved it.
@@ChungsMartialArts here's a video you may find interesting with a TAGB tutor ruclips.net/video/zcP6DUwWmJU/видео.html
@@IamOllytech How many classes did you do per week?
@@ChungsMartialArts I did 2 a week at the time plus 1 Karate class a week too. I also went along to a few different clubs just for their free trials in-between.
I'd like to offer my two cents because this is definitely an important subject in the Taekwondo community. I personally love the old school style. I was raised on it, my father trained in it, and my school teaches old school style sparring. I think foot fencing is silly, but that does not mean it does not take skill or is bad. The sport in its current form is not exactly applicable to real fighting, and that's OK. My issue with modern Taekwondo is that its still marketed to people the same way its always been, as a martial art or a form of "self defense". I've met many modern TKD athletes who are very skilled, but they are misguided. They think that their skill in foot fencing can be applied to real fighting, and that despite their sport training those skills can be translated in the moment. This simply isn't true; as the phrase goes "you fight how you train". In addition, many people do want an art that is brutal and powerful, and love the kicking prowess that Taekwondo brings to the table. When people see foot fencing in the Olympics, they think that's all there is to Taekwondo. So in my eyes, both versions of the sport should coexist, and people should be able to pick and choose. Having only one version be the face of the art as a whole only reduces the potential students of this wonderful art. Now to touch on some points you made in the video. First I'd like to say that although you CAN kick as hard as you want in modern Taekwondo, you will find yourself being quickly shut down by the foot fencing style. It is simply the most efficient and effective way to win within the ruleset, and so kicking with power in a more combat sport way just doesn't work. Another point you made is about head defense, and here I'd also disagree. Being more upright allows for power, and it also allows for Taekwondo to be more easily adapted to more realistic combat sports. It is unique but still more effective for real fighting than the modern style. By keeping my head back and my stance narrow and back heavy, athletes lose the ability to use other possible techniques that they would in real fighting. It doesn't help much with punches coming at the face either, since in an attempt to lean away from the punches the athlete would be more open to other shots such as kicks or even takedowns. There's a reason why kickboxers or even boxers don't just simply lean their head back all the time. Those are just my thoughts however, I'd love to hear your thoughts. We are all one Taekwondo community after all!
I appreciate your comment, my recent video is a response to it:
ruclips.net/video/nefXTVmaug0/видео.html
Same, I was in from 1990 to around 00-01. My little sister was better than me at katas, in strict point fighting sometimes I would lose, but in a straight up match where proweress and execution mattered I rarely got beat up. Now that things are becoming better at work and although I've been out of it for 20 years, I recently thought about trying to get back into it, however, after what I've heard and watched I'm not sure how I'd be viewed coming in there sparring the way we used to.
@@suzleber4 I've sparred in tournament a couple times, and to be totally honest, there's not really a path to victory using the old style. The new style is simply the best style for the current ruleset. It's frustrating to compete against but I still try.
@@tacocatdeboss7665 agree b'coz the old TKD is really effective in self defense while the modern one is good at sports in my opinion.
@@deb4594 I wouldn't say the old school TKD style is exactly effective for self defense. It definitely is still a sport form. The difference is the old style is generally more applicable to other combat sports.
Maybe you’re missing the point that it was called as a “COMBAT SPORTS” back in the day
I’ve competed both - I think you’ve basically covered the pros and cons to both styles with an objective standpoint. I would recommend this video to any competitor and coach
Back in the day tkd guys always put their hands up for to “ DEFEND “ compare to new era BS
I agree with your statement of it removing subjectivity in terms of scoring. However in it's place is the impractical kicking techniques that will only trigger the sensors. The other issue is the constant change of rules.
It’s kind of wild to me that you’ve reached the level you have in Taekwondo and don’t know that it was in fact a method to use in real fights before sport TKD became popular.
Let me guess, I need to go read “a killing art”?
@@ChungsMartialArtsyes and other TKD books.
When my instructor was my age, he got second place in Black Belt nationals. I don't think he loves the new foot fencing Taekwondo now. I have to ask him, but my other instructor, his wife with an ITF background, doesn't like the new rules
My TKD instructor was from the power era and had to retire because his knees went out.
0:45 face punches were allowed until the 80's
Thank you for this video. I just started Taekwondo after 6 years of boxing and it opened up many new perspectives. Can you tell me please if the Head strikes score more points in competitions? Is that why the dodging has improved so much?
Thanks! Yes, under the format we use, a standard head kick scores three points where as a turning head kick scores five points. I do think the point inflation played a big part in improved head dodging.
Before the K.O. was hit, now the point is the hit (so that the sensor on the chest protector emits the "touché" signal). There are diferent strategies with different tactical approaches.
i wanna learn the old school way cause its al about power
Muay Thai might be more your cup of tea. Unless you very specifically like old school TKD.
@@ChungsMartialArts i dont get it :D
im trying to find a martial arts for me :D
@@ChungsMartialArts but i dunno what
@@crusader4246 If you want power striking Muay Thai is a good option.
The way forward lies in continuously renewing the sport to find the perfect middle ground. Both old and new school have their strengths and weaknesses, and I’m sure with more rule changes we can find that common ground that best illustrates the spirit of taekwondo.
I'm intrigued why both ITF and WT people talk about their style as "Taekwondo" as if it was the only one.
I think it depends more on each individual Dojang. Because the peak of my training in TKD was in the 90's also. I was fighting in mens full contact blackbelt division. We never had a falling tactic and we focused heavily on head defense. We used to do drills where your opponent would only kick you to the head and you had to avoid/block or you were getting hit hard. We had our hands up more than most other dojangs I've seen. It was also very much self defense applicable. My instructor mixed boxing and believe it or not we would wrestle at times. So I would say YES around th 90's it was more intense with hard sparring and harder shots. Other than that it depended on the dojang. Another thing is you don't want to go into a kick boxing or MMA gym or even self defense on the street and ust get completely crushed or injured because you haven't built the fundementals of combat. If it says TKD and self defense. Than it better have self defense.
I'm here trying to figure out how to convert the new style to the old military style or the Tang Soo Do karate precursor.
Just do Shotokan karate.
i just think watching old tkd is more entertaaining
In order to get the best of both worlds, could you have the electronic scoring, but depending on how much pressure is applied, it will determine how many points you get. For example, the minimum pressure on the chest plate is 1 point, something with a moderate amount of pressure is 2 points, and then full blown powered pressure is 3 points. Do you think that could work?
The electronic system already has a power threshold based on weight class, so a lot of shots don’t score because they aren’t hard enough.
Have you read the book of traditional take kwon do. I read some in the capital area district library
I have not, but I did read Doug Cooks other book “Taekwondo: Ancient Wisdom for a Modern Warrior”.
@@ChungsMartialArts Try "The Killing Art" by Alex Gillis
@@cowlico I’ve read it.
@@ChungsMartialArts so much infighting over this style should never go unnoticed, nor should Capt Nam Tae Hi. Sometimes we forget that at some point TKD is an art useful self defense. Having trained with a few ROK Marines for a short time, I still remember what was good and solid vs sporting aspects. Now I am a Ch’ang Hon Oh Do Kwan student as my instructor would often say: “Americans can be a bit skeptical over something that appears not to work as it should. I mean with all the 1st Dan leaving Korea to suddenly arrive in America as 4th and 5th Dans adding things to TKD that were not there before. For example the first history of Kumdo, which is simply a modern Korean martial art derived from Japanese Kendo. Something to think about.
In my time (far away in my mind) we live fullcontac taekwondo and preolimpic taekwondo. Preolimpic training win sport matches, but BOTH SKILLS keepme safe in street
great video.
i used to come home with knuckle marks on my head. my mom would ask, was that leroy...i would say, no it was rick this time... a totally different set of rules.
i was told to loss 5lbs and go to a tournament in flint mi and do fin weight. i got 3rd place because they gave me a BYE. not enough participants so, at 115lbs
i fought at 160lbs. they consolidated to light and heavy. different rules. went to do seminars with a gentlemen named joe Lewis in Swanton, oh and they had
kiss contact rules. my teacher would separate basic exercise, self defense, demo breaking, and sport fighting. he used to call it ki bon ki sool, ho sin sool,
kyua pa, and ky ryu gi.
not sure what old school is. just evolution of what we do? like i said great video...and your instructor chung should be proud of you as her student. if not...
maybe i'm little bit real contact to her hand...thats a korean accent joke from 1974...ha ha.
All of this will in the end depend on the practitioner. We competed in a lot of Karate tournaments instead of TKD tournaments.
Since coming back to training. I have to be used to new school. So when sparring my old pals i will try to pull off soe new school and thag would score and if i spar with new school i will sometimes try to pull old school just to surprise them. ❤
I am stunned. I trained in the 90's. It was self defense back then and I personally defeated most other martial arts with it. Tae Kwon Do has grapples, many punches, locks, and advanced kicks. Go back in actual history and realize people feared it. Then again they have watered it down so bad over 70 percent of what use to exist is no longer taught and rarely known. As for the sport. You seem to want 1/100th the pain of boxing? Also a sport. From what I see today's students would be fodder to the past. I don't agree with most you say. I apologize cause I know most didn't learn what I did. Avoiding through drop downs. Also losing due to bad judges is a life lesson. I can go on and on. Anyways good luck in your studies
Everything you said is true. Taekwondo is a real fighting art and the old-school sport was far better.
Two things about "falling", I would only do it pre-emptively against lower belts during sparring to throw them off mentally. Also, used a trip/sweep take down from the position, so it wasn't a total coward bail out. This is for class and self defense, not for tournament. Also, an opponent who has fallen is in prime position to be axe kicked which is more applicable to real life.
I don’t think we are talking about the same type of sparring.
What about make it 2 competition? Like boxing they have amateur boxing and professional boxing competition.
Do what I do. If you want your TKD to be a mid-tier martial arts. Modify it, add ground game, add boxing combos, use taekwondo kicks that would work in a tournament/street fight.
I've learned a long time ago that Competition & Combat are entirely different. Not much into competition, however it has its place and it's a good way to vet your skills against an opponent who you have never sparred before.
As for myself I'm an Old School Traditional kinda guy, however as I age I rely on my hands more and moved towards the Wing Chun Method because over the years it has served me well. I'm k ockin on 60's door and I still consider myself to be Formidable.
Never enjoyed Foot Fencing or watching it either. Just an opinion.
I started Korean martial arts in the 70's. Then, we were trained to be well-rounded fighters so our art could be used for self-defense. I have watched the sport aspect evolve over the decades. My opinion it all comes down to money and getting and retaining students and that is ok but do not give your students false illusions that what today's sport TKD is about will give you the best chance in a real confrontation. I have left teaching in the commercial aspect to teaching for smaller yet stronger students, who understand that there is no participation belts give, and everything is earned. Am I as tough as I used to be? Yes and no. The training and fighting are still tough, but I now realize that making students push past injuries isn't good. (Experience is golden ). In short, Tkd can exist in both realms, BUT! The sport should be called Taekwon-sport and traditional called by its name Taekwondo.
Change the electronic sensor to a pressure pads, unless you hit a person with enough power then you wont score.
That’s already how it works. Each weight class has different psi requirements.
My opinion is the old school is better and it’s more entertaining than modern day teakwondo to watch. while foot fencing can be fun and takes extensive skill, from the outside it is very boring to watch, and I feel like the sport itself is shrinking and is far less appealing than old school taekwondo now
Easy solution is that points should be the lbs of force behind the hit
That’s what they already do.
Edit: I think I misunderstood, do you mean that you get more points based on a harder shot?
not all old school Taewondo is a sport. It is used in the military and Rock soldiers.
Also true blocking in Tae Kwon Do were strikes and crippled peoples limbs when performed correctly. Old-school all the way.
You look like daniel from karate kid
As well in security..
so taekwondo is getting better
I think so.
New school is for sweet babies, old school is for real self-defense.
Neither are great “self-defense”.
@@ChungsMartialArts just limiting my 2cents to between the two styles, and not self-defense in general which is what you are referring to.
@@ricoriofrer3706 ok. Personally, I am a traditionalist, so I understand your opinion.
If winning is the priority over the sake of preserving the art in a holistic way, we’ve lost the plot. Taekwondo is losing credibility and someone who has been doing this over 25 years it’s sad to see. I they wanted to they could make a rule set that is relatively safe and doesn’t close the entire sports to soft front leg touch kicks.
Taekwondo is one of the most popular martial arts in the world. What “credibility” are you concerned with?
@@ChungsMartialArts the fact that the olympic version of Taekwondo is treated as a monolith. This is the natural progression of sportifying any martial art. When I see the thing I love boiled down to front foot Rock Paper Scissors it breaks my heart. Unbalanced rules boil down sports into degenerate play by maximizing over powered strategies. Not to mention is terribly boring. It’s become more if a sport now traditional tkd practitioners have to be lumped in making it harder for us to advocate for our martial art in a holistic way. I respect any athletes doing sport tkd but it’s the system that needs an overhaul.
@@russellwilliams5065 Taekwondo is treated as a monolith? Since when? By who? I see all sorts of approaches to Taekwondo all the time, even within the same school. Regarding it being boring, so are most sports at an amateur level. The fun part for amateur athletes is in the DOING, not the watching. Why care about how exciting it is to people who don’t even do the sport? Who is lumping traditionalists in with sport athletes?
@@ChungsMartialArts people watching is how the world sees us. Then why be in the olympics? Not to mention the limited strategy also unintentionally pushes out diversity of competitors. If you shorter than average the sport almost closes you off. I know you can’t just make sports “fair” for short people but the current state of play is a lot of keep away and taps to the head. If we’re all playing the same way it will become stale. If I remember correctly they are changing the rules again partly because of the staleness and low spectatorship.
we’re not in a vacuum it’s not just Taekwondo in the martial arts community as a whole we share space and ideas with other martial arts and unfortunately competent martial arts have good critiques about its efficiency outside of the ring. Maybe we should make Olympic TKD it’s own entity have its own rank system rules and advertising it as purely sport.
@@russellwilliams5065 Olympic TKD is its own thing. It’s a ruleset like any other sport, which of course favors particular types of athletes. If you want a broader rule set there are many options such as kickboxing, Muay Thai, MMA and so on. Sport TKD is its own, self contained thing and it doesn’t need to be good at anything else. Most combat sports have low spectatorship. How many people watch judo, fencing, Brazilian Jujitsu, point karate or wrestling? How the world sees us? It’s one of the most popular martial arts, so clearly TKD is doing something right in terms of perception. If your talking about getting tough guy credibility from internet warriors I have a solution, go do MMA or Muay Thai or BJJ. I personally don’t particularly care what they think though, for me the martial arts are for my enjoyment, not my perceived fighting status on the Internet or in a bar full of drunk, out of shape 28 year olds.
You said Taekwondo is a sport in complaining about losing power is silly and then you use an example of kickboxing which is even more of a sport yet has all of the power people are talking about. And then you said that people don't use Taekwondo in the streets but then used to kickboxing as an example as something you would use in the streets. Do you understand the irony of the statement you made? Taekwondo is a martial art and people start training in it for self defense. Only now after the Olympics is the whole sport culture aspect of Taekwondo prominent. It's cheapened snd watered doen the srt. Taekwondo always was meant to be a serious martial art and killing system.
And yes original WTF sparring was tougher and more like an actual fight, sinilar to the feeling of boxing except mostly kicks. Now its become flying ballet kicks at each other to register the most amount of points on electronic scoring gear and not sbout fighting your opponent snd trying to hurt them. People have valid reasons to hating the development of WTF sparring and what Taekwondo culture has become.
I whole heartily disagree with your assessment. Taekwondo is first and foremost a martial art. The sport side has taken over and now people train base off the rules. The technique has change. I still train in Taekwondo and have noted a change in how the technique are done. The side kick is the best example of the old vs new. The old side kick or for breaking is not taught anymore or nearly as much.
I don’t understand what you disagree with me on.
@@ChungsMartialArts that you can just kick with more power. The kicking technique that sport TKD used now are weaker then what they used to be. Because of the sensor TKD people kick with instep where you used to kick with ball or lower shin toward the ankle for the roundhouse. If you add to much power with the instep you will break your ankle.
So the sport TKD people would only train using the instep losing power.
@@Abluemoon9112 have you used electronic equipment?
@@ChungsMartialArts yes I have, it does not take much to score on them. The sport TKD is more about foot placement and how you "cheese" the system.
Sport TKD like any sport now favors a certain body type. Because of the rule change the sport favors tall and lengthy athletes.
@@Abluemoon9112 did you try a power kick on the electronic gear and have it not score?
I've see kids score 60 pts in a fight and not 1 kick would hurt anyone... it's a game of tag now. It has become un-watchable.
First, multiple points are scored for various types of kicks, with spinning kicks offering as many as five, so getting to sixty isn’t as hard as you make it sound. Second, all striking arts are a game of tag. 3rd, I’m glad the kicks aren’t hurting the kids, it makes a much more enjoyable event that they can do repeatedly, with multiple matches in the same day. 4th, Taekwondo is not a good spectator sport, it’s more fun to do it.
No jead movement? Dude I am sorry your training history experience was lacking. We trained head movement to avoid head kicks in the 90s. Also falling on purpose was froened upon and yes you got a warning where now it seems falling is encouraged. Also cheering after a kick acting like you got a point was also a warning becuse it is stupid and disrespectful. Now it is encouraged. Old oldschool WTF clinch was not boring as there was tons of strategy involved.
Shit new style
Profound, thanks for sharing.
You sir do not seem understand that Taekwondo was first and foremost a Marrial Art and a sport second. I don’t blame you clearly you are in bedded with what I assume to be a very respected WTF organization and I could explain it to you but you are to indoctrinated to understand the explanation. If you train students in a martial art (any martial art) with the mindset of winning competitions and playing the game to score points instead of actually teaching them how to defend themselves. You are doing a disservice to your students and you are not a martial artist you’re just a sports coach.
taekwondo will not last long with foot fencing, it looks very boring; that's not going to garner any views and new competitors, which means no money.
Combat giving TKD the combat sport status is the problem. A sport is a sport but combat is combat so when the 2 are applied combat sports it look like boxing or old school TKD....taekwondo isn't a combat anymore so it more of just a sport....you cant take soccer into a street fight either but tdk got certain people train the new style acting like they're badass like the old school style which is the real problem but how I see it, anyone with a brain will know what they'll get into.
I dunno I think we need a new- new system