Shortsighted and stagnated, more like. That's what happens when you operate under a functional monopoly for decades. More concerned with protecting their fiefdoms and managing safe surietys than innovating and growing. Winchester spent more time making sure others couldn't compete with them, they stopped bothering to be competitive. I think Brownings main issue with Winchester wasn't even the money, really, it was that Winchester would just mothball the project, and hold the patents so noone else could use them, and never make a single shotgun. Browning knew his idea would revolutionize the industry, and wanted to make sure Winchester would actually utilize them. By wanting royalties, he was investing in its success and would have a say in its production. The new head at Winchester was likely insecure in his position, and didnt want competition for any successes from the golden boy. In his view, if Browning wanted a say in how Winchester ran things , he could actually hire on and start at the bottom, or try his luck elsewhere.
What I pieced together from some of Ian's other videos, their relationship was already going south. The 1897 shotgun had some teething problems that Winchester spent a lot of money to work out. Sounds like Winchester was a little gun-shy (pun intended) about going all in on a new shotgun design so soon after getting Winchester 1897 onto the market. But yeah, retrospectively a big blunder.
I worked on one of these (Winchester 1911) while in gunsmithing school and I can say it is a veritable nightmare to disassemble and reassemble. Winchester just should have paid Browning the royalties and cloned the A-5 instead of making a soup sandwich copy. The mass-produced versions of the Winchester 1911 were some of the first guns to use laminated wooden furniture.
@@sytron3912 when it actually functioned, it was pleasant as it was entirely steel and wood (save some small brass and fiber parts here and there). I did not give credence to its "widowmaker" moniker.
The A5 is also notoriously obnoxious to strip. You practically have to fully disassemble it to clean it, and it requires 4 hands to screw the magazine cap in place while the barrel and handguard are slightly compressed against the barrel and magazine spring.
@@rhubarbpie2027 I assumed the widowmaker moniker was due to the fact that if the action jammed its very easy if you arent careful to basically try and mortar the shotgun with the muzzle pointed in your own direction.
I grew up shooting both my Auto 5 and my dads 1911 SL and I feel like the whole " widowmaker" thing is mostly Fudlore. The one I used worked great and I don't recall any malfunctions that weren't ammo related. I have seen several videos on them that really had a lot of false information. If Ian does a video on the Winchester 1911SL I hope he talks to someone with actual experience with them rather than perpetuate internet misinformation. I liked shooting the Winchester better than the Browning because it was shorter and lighter.
Wonder if you could make a "guns of John Browning" playlist on the channel. If anyone deserves a dedicated section, it is him & his works. Just finished the book on him, as well.
That would be a lot of video's. If there is one thing all historical firearm channels have in common. It's that John Moses Browning comes up more often then any other weapons designer.
@@Braindead154 He does a lot more than just military arms, he basically covers all rare or obscure firearms like the zip 22, pen guns, Apache Knuckle Duster Pistols and the Taurus Curve to name a few. He pretty much does videos on any gun he finds interesting.
@@DennisFromRLM Okay, the first firearms were created specifically for war. Everything from the latest short recoil and gas operating systems, to the ancient wheel lock and rope igniting firearms. Military, and civilian arms are one and the same. WWI proved this when so called hunting rifles and shotguns were pressed into to service and showed just how lethal they were and are. Yes you have hundreds of different rounds connected to many calibers. Some are great for killing squirrels, others water bison. All built under the foundation of people killing people. Thank you.
@@ArmyBoiSweat it's from 1926, I haven't even fired it yet. I need to get it properly restored, pretty sure there's 50-year-old engine grease in the action lol.
@@ArmyBoiSweat Yeah, my cousin has a double barrel 16 gauge his father bought around 1950. I'm not sure if 16 never really took off here, or if it was popular for awhile and just fell out of favor.
@@spiff226820 and 12 are both mentioned in the official ruleset for Trap Shooting, while 16 is not. That dealt a bad blow to the gauge, which sucks because it's like the perfect bird round. I wish it had a larger market.
In an unusual circumstance, I was given a Browning Automatic Shotgun. I took the serial number and found out from the company when the gun was made. Production stopped in 1911 with the start up of the slightly changed Model 11, however, due to having so many spare parts the company continued to assemble and sell the Auto Shotgun until 1914. Mine was assembled in 1913, according to company records. It would not cycle when I got it and I had a gunsmith disassemble it. The main recoil spring was broken and he was able to replace it! The bluing...actually browning, was heavily pitted, so he put a dark non-reflective bluing on it to stop the deterioration. It had a bakelite butt plate and I have put a slipover pad over it. Have not fired it as it is now well over 100 years old, but I have no doubt it would still fire. The finish had turned black, so I stripped it back to the stained wood, and put several coats of tung oil on it, but not to the point of being shiny. I do like it very much. And I have a later Remington on a Browning patent 20 gauge bird gun also, this one inherited from my wife's uncle!
Not having fired it is your biggest sin. What was the point of fixing it if you aren't going to fire it? My two oldest guns over 100 years old and still fire flawlessly. A Winchester Model 1873 made in 1888 and a Remington Autoloading Shotgun (Winchesters licenced Browning A5) made in 1907 pre dating when Winchester called it a Model 11. Go shoot your guns they need love not to sit around collecting dust.
John Browning was dead right on the Auto-5. It was, and is, a fine weapon. The Winchester 1911? Not nearly so much. Winchester really screwed the pooch, and in the process changed firearms history forever.
@@terribleauthority Winchester drove Browning into FN's arms. Belgium was already known for great firearms, but after this, they had John Browning working with them.
John Moses Browning was a proud man. Some would describe him as "stiff necked". He was the type to remember anything he considered a disrespectful action for quite a while. He apparently never forgave his half-brothers over their shenanigans with his father's estate.
Idk, a implementing a few ideas from 1911 to A-5 to make "definite" version doesn't seem bad. Gnarling on the barrel won't hurt A-5, but 1 in a 1000 times it may turn out to be useful.
My dad and I found one of these Winchesters, and the fiber recoil washers were all kinds of screwed up. We never knew until we tried to take a crack at a sporting clays range, and dear God, that 1911 was _vicious._ The thing felt like it was angry at you for existing, and there we were struggling to draw a bead on clay disks with a decrepit prototype semi-automatic. We learned some painful lessons XD
I've got a Winchester Model 1911 shotgun that belonged to my grandfather. It hasn't fired in years, and in fact has a split stock, which is a common feature of that model, and resulted from the fiber friction rings wearing out pretty quickly and losing their ability to slow the bolt opening. Once they got worn enough, the bolt would open so fast that the recoil would split the wooden buttstock. This shotgun earned the name "widowmaker" because people took to resting the butt on the ground and pushing down on the barrel, especially when they needed to clear a jam -- something that was more common in the days of paper-hulled shotgun shells that would swell up with moisture. But I read of someone inadvertently killing himself with one of these guns as recently as recently as about five years or so ago. As you can imagine, trying to charged the gun or clear a jam in the manner described above leaves the muzzle pointed upward, and it's easy to get your head in front of it. Then you have a negligent discharge, and you take a dirt nap.
My favorite sporting firearm in my collection is easily my Auto-5, and not just because it's a visually and mechanically distinctive firearm. It's a very gentle weapon to fire, it's very accurate, and the weird two-stage recoil impulse I *swear* feels like it puts you back close to the target after firing. Magnificent for sporting, and as long as your recoil ring and springs are all fresh, it's hilariously reliable.
My grandfather gave me his Belgium Browning A5 20ga. with Improved cyl. barrel in the late 60's. Took my first buck in 69' with it and the only three doves triple for three doves I shot late one afternoon with the three shell limit. Haven't fired it likely since the very early 70's. The Browning Legacy lives on...timeless workmanship.
I just love how this gun looks. That part where the receiver is kind of higher than the attaching part of the stock makes it look different from other shotguns
If you love this gun, you should check out a Browning Auto-5. I own 2, one in 12 gauge and one in 20. Wouldn’t trade it for any of the existing automatic shotguns out there. Absolutely magnificant. And since you like the way the “hump” looks, you will absolutely love shooting it. 👍
If you ever find yourself in Ogden Utah, there is a Browning museum at the end of 25th St. in the old Union Pacific Station. Highly recommended. They have 1 of 3 prototype 1911's used in the Army tests. The attendant told me the other two were presumed destroyed in the testing. If you want to the see 1 of the very first ever 1911's (in the white, no serial numbers) ever, stop by this place.
If you run the gun completely out of ammo you still have to grab the barrel the button on the side is just a chamber hold open you still have to pull the barrel back to open the chamber to drop the first shell in Stihl big thumbs up for this video one of my favorite channels
I have a Model 1911 with national guard proof marks. The handguard is completely shattered and non repairable. I came up with a heavier handguard and a steel tube inside and two O rings that go on either side of the Barrel ride. I haven't finished it yet, but the theory is sound. The Auto 5 is arguably the best semi auto shotgun of all time. Simple, effective, they don't break, they don't jam. Even benelli shotguns have many moving parts and require constant maintenance more so than the A-5. I have worked on and owned both and own an A-5 in every gauge except 28. Just a fantastic weapon.
So I shoot clays with my 1911SL and actually love it to death since it fits me so well. If you remember to press the BHO on the last round, it’s a very bearable gun, since I’m the kind of nerd that enjoys brutal recoil and strange operating mechanisms. And if you don’t, hey, surprise arm workout. Glad you finally covered this particular example of an attainable yet still (rightfully) forgotten weapon!
the fact this gun exists and is in your hands is amazing. i wonder how many guns with significance like this are just part of someone’s collection through passing down and maybe a sale
I've got the remington version and let me tell you, mortaring the thing by the barrel to get a stuck shell out is one of the scariest things you can do
I loved that museum… about 20 years ago, my friend and I got absolutely hammered, went to that museum, then went to a place outside of town and bought a bunch of M-80’s that we terrorized a small town in Montana with.
Browning licensed the design in America to Remington as the Remington Model 11, which led to the 11-48, then to the 1100 and 11-87, giving Remington a practical hegemony over American semi-auto shotguns. Winchester never recovered the ground they lost by letting the Auto-5 slip away.
I really love my 1911 SL, i'm the third generation in my family thats owns the gun right now, the gun fits me so well and is a really well shooting old shotgun, people who complain about it and says it's worthless or junk have never shot one i swear. The Loading mechanism is a bit unusual i agree but there is not a bad recoil in my opinion, not even close to as bad as my old SBS Husqvarna from the 60's
The Buffalo bill center of the west is on my bucket list to get to visit someday. Thanks for bringing some of what they have to those of us who cannot make it out to experience it ourselves!
The level of greed required for Winchester refusing to give Browning Royalties always amazes me. Most people would kill to have a more or less guaranteed successful product even if their profit margin was a reduced.
I once watched a dude almost blow his face off with a Winchester 1911. The sear was worn to barely there status and he put it down on the pavement to cycle the cursed thing.
I thought no mention of the Remmy Model 11 was weird, because it was hugely successful. In fact Remington produced the Auto-5 guns for FN during WWII till FN got back going post war.
Because it is a licensed production, not a copy or an attempt to work around patents. Remington basically handled US market once they were set up, and FN did Europe. This also reflects the features offered on both. FN's was basically upscale as possible, with factory engraving and multiple custom options from the factory, while Remingtons was utilitarian, stripped down version with much less emphasis on elegance. It lacked features like the mag cutoff, and automatic chambering system.
For those of you who don't know, Browning was waiting in the office to meet Remingtons Pressident, Martellus Hartley, when that gentlman died of a heart attack in the office. Figuring it would take awhile for things to settle down there, he took the design to FN for the European rights
So winchesters first SL’s were the 1903 .22 automatic, 1905 .32 and .35 WSL, 1907 .351 WSL , 1910 .401 WSL and 1911 .12 gauge SL…. What came after this?
I had a Sweet 16 and I have a 12 g Winchester1911 and no charging handle. They didn't call it the Widow Maker for nothing. They tried to buy all them back due to more than one safety issue. The internals also have issues and can blow the bolt out of the back end into your eye. Also, the stock is a 3 piece laminated stock - 3 pieces side by side.
So this is how the Winchester "1911 Widow Maker" was developed?.... Thanks Boss always great how you tie in all kinds of historical aspects. History, Science and Engineering, Good Stuff.
Also known as the brutal Crown & King Auto-5 to my fellow Hunt players…… (Edit: I realize that the Crown is based off of John Browning’s A5 model, but they look similar enough nonetheless)
@@normtrooper4392 I think Jonathan Ferguson from the Royal Armouries did a video on that for GameSpot. But it's just a selection, not all guns. Edit: GameSpot, not GameStop. (Stupid Brainfart)
Funnily enough I have both a browning auto-5 and a Springfield 1911 and they are my two most favorite guns in my collection. I practice with both regularly and they both feel like an extension of my body by this point.
I used to own a Winchester 1911 with the knurled barrel. I believe it had the nickname Widowmaker so I was very careful when loading it. It was not blued but had a silver finish.
One thing he didn't cover on the M1911 is that button. Before opening the bolt you want to push it to the right to lock the bolt open. If you don't and load the magazine, when you cycle the bolt, the barrel will return to battery, followed by a shell being fed from the magazine and the bolt slamming it into the chamber, which wouldn't be a big deal except for the fact that sometimes these guns slam fire. And if the muzzle happens to be pointed where it shouldn't, somebody has a real bad day. Hemce, the guns nick name "Widow maker".
Winchester Agent: one auto-5 please. JMB: You're not going to use it to circumvent my patent, are you? Winchester Agent: N... no... no of course not, why would you even say that?
Just to clear up JMB's relationship with Winchester and FN...when JMB went to WRA in 1899, with newly patented .32 Auto Pistol, the executive who dealt with JMB previously ( 1892,1894, 1895, 1897) had just died, and the replacement manager rejected the Handgun Design as mot being WRA' s market! On leaving WRA, JMB encountered the Remington Agent to Belgium, who suggested that FN might be interested, as Auto Pistols were becoming popular in Europe...by early 1900, JMB had arranged a lucrative arrangement with FN to manufacture the now M1900 Pistol ( on a Royalty Basis); they also took on the 1900 Patent 5 shot shotgun ( 1905 A5), of which a first lot were destined the JMB family shop in Ogden. As JMB had given WRA the ultimatum of Royalty payments rather than Patent Sale ( as had happened since 1885 HighWall), Winchester tried to evade the Patents as described by Ian. Not that it did much good to WRA; Browning (FN) had already cornered the Market ( and Browning had also registered the Patent in USA furthermore, Remington was FN agent in USA, and introduced its own Auto under FN/ Browning Licence. Although During WWI, WRA cooperated with JMB on the BAR, M1917, and .50 cal. Ammo, that rejection ofthe 1899 Auto pistol design cost Winchester dearly. Colt got all the Pistol and MG Patent Licences, BMJ gave his Colt 1911, BAR and MG patents to the US gov't at No charge ( I think a nominal $1.00 was mentioned) Doc AV
Cody really has some of the coolest collectable firearms. Not always the highest value...though I am sure some of them are worth more than I make in a year, but they just have these little special firearms that have an important part in development.
T. C. Johnson actually did a pretty remarkable job of working around Browning's patents in developing the 1911. Unfortunately, couldn't work around the operating lever patent. Thus the "widow maker" arrangement.
I have like 10 Remington model 11s and they are basically the same as an A5. Guess Remington actually paid for the patent and wasn't stubborn like Winchester
Patents are issued to people, NOT companies. Companies often buy (for a nominal fee) those patents. JM Browning, being an independent designer, might "assign the rights" for a flat fee, or on a "fee per unit" basis. Accountants (our beloved "bean counters") don't like to send checks every "X" number of units. That requires counting.
Isn't part of the story that when Winchester turned him down, he first shopped the design to Remington, and was in the waiting room about to talk to the pres. of Remington, when the pres. died of a heart attack, and they wheeled his body past JMB. He then made the trip to Belgium. I believe this was the gun he was there to shop to Rem.,( I could be wrong). I believe Remington used some auto-5 influence in their own model 11 as well.
If I had knowledge of agents trying to incur in corporate espionage, I would individually sell each gun at an exorbitant price! Normal buyers would be turned off, but alas, simply a test, for the agent would no doubt buy it without hesitation and inform Winchester of the price, causing them to produce and sell an inferior product at an unreasonable cost.
Wouldn't help, the patents are public, and even if they were somehow not able to acquire an example, a tool room demonstrator wouldn't be difficult to make. Ironically it would force Winchester to start from scratch, instead of copying and removing or working around patents, and probably end up with a better end product.
In between going to Winchester and then going to Belgium, JMB paid a visit to Remington to make a deal with them. The President of Remington then had a heart attack and died while JMB was waiting outside his office. If that meeting had successfully been made then Browning may not have done the deal with FN until later, if at all. Browning eventually licensed the design to Remington who made a lot of them as well. He never made another gun for Winchester after that.
Cody also has a "dug up" museum. These are guns as they were dug up from the ground by metal detector enthusiasts and at construction sites and by cave explorers. Some were from previously unknown battlefields. None of these arms have been restored or had mud rinced off with water. You may want to do a show on this site. These guns were actually DOING history when they were lost.
The fact that the guy that suggested cycling the gun by grabbing the barrel wasn't immediately shouted down and threatened that he'd be sweeping floors if he kept it up just shows Winchester was really, really out of ideas!
I'd honestly love to see some of those JMB patent models next time you go out to Cody. Getting to see how he originally built them up to work; and then comparing how Winchester's people refined them would be so enlightening
Depends on which ones you want to see, most of the actual patent models are in Ogden at the Browning museum. Cody has the unproduced models Winchester bought for patent trolling.
I am currently reading the JMB biography Ian recently reviewed, and in there it recounts that Browning had gone to Colt, who were happy to pay royalties, that it was a Colt international salesman that first introduced JMB to FN, and that he went to FN with the shotgun because Colt was not interested in making them.
That looks amazing to think that Browning me of actually touched it is really cool. I own a Browning auto-5 sweet 16 one of the hundred-year Centennial version they used to hunt squirrel and rabbit with its art
It might be better to add a non-reciprocating charging handle between the barrel and the magazine tube. The one that does not touch the barrel until pulled back; so that it does not become hot during the shooting. The magazine tube being its guide.
I have always heard the same story ian told n this video. However in the book Guns Of JMB it states that Browning wanted royalties and Winchester agreed but the relationship was a bit rocky at the time. A little while later, when he had built the A5, JMB was worried Winchester wouldn't build the A5, just buy the patent and sit on it to keep others from having it. So JMB told Winchester he wanted an emourmous royalty for the A5, figuring they would say no and he could then go to FN. Which is what Winchester did, and JMB and Winchesters relationship ended.
I just got my copy of The Guns of John Moses Browning, thanks for recommending! I almost don’t want to give it away to my dad, it’s such an interesting book.
JM Browning: Hi, are you in town? Winchester agent: Yeah. John, I'd like to buy one of those Auto-5s. JMB: Really, what do you want to do with that? Winchester agent: Can't say.
Gun Jesus handling a relic of St. Browning. Mornings don’t get any better than this
He died for all gun sins
I mean. I could be handling the Relic of the Patron Saint of Pew. That would be a better morning.
@@DopetheWind Weren't those the sainted brothers Pew & Pew? :P
Agreed
@@kaijuar2003 vain my man
Winchester would have saved a lot of money if they weren’t so greedy.
Good thing they were, though. The Auto-5 saved FN (iirc).
Shortsighted and stagnated, more like. That's what happens when you operate under a functional monopoly for decades. More concerned with protecting their fiefdoms and managing safe surietys than innovating and growing. Winchester spent more time making sure others couldn't compete with them, they stopped bothering to be competitive.
I think Brownings main issue with Winchester wasn't even the money, really, it was that Winchester would just mothball the project, and hold the patents so noone else could use them, and never make a single shotgun. Browning knew his idea would revolutionize the industry, and wanted to make sure Winchester would actually utilize them. By wanting royalties, he was investing in its success and would have a say in its production. The new head at Winchester was likely insecure in his position, and didnt want competition for any successes from the golden boy. In his view, if Browning wanted a say in how Winchester ran things , he could actually hire on and start at the bottom, or try his luck elsewhere.
What da dog doin
The joke was ultimately on Winchester. They've paid out more in lawsuits over the 1911 than they probably made selling them.
What I pieced together from some of Ian's other videos, their relationship was already going south. The 1897 shotgun had some teething problems that Winchester spent a lot of money to work out. Sounds like Winchester was a little gun-shy (pun intended) about going all in on a new shotgun design so soon after getting Winchester 1897 onto the market. But yeah, retrospectively a big blunder.
Winchester “we are bigger than you John”
JMB “ OK BYE “
Winchester…..ops we own ….nothing
I worked on one of these (Winchester 1911) while in gunsmithing school and I can say it is a veritable nightmare to disassemble and reassemble. Winchester just should have paid Browning the royalties and cloned the A-5 instead of making a soup sandwich copy. The mass-produced versions of the Winchester 1911 were some of the first guns to use laminated wooden furniture.
Was it a bit of a nightmare to shoot it as well? Because it recoils a lot.
@@sytron3912 when it actually functioned, it was pleasant as it was entirely steel and wood (save some small brass and fiber parts here and there). I did not give credence to its "widowmaker" moniker.
The A5 is also notoriously obnoxious to strip. You practically have to fully disassemble it to clean it, and it requires 4 hands to screw the magazine cap in place while the barrel and handguard are slightly compressed against the barrel and magazine spring.
@@rhubarbpie2027 I assumed the widowmaker moniker was due to the fact that if the action jammed its very easy if you arent careful to basically try and mortar the shotgun with the muzzle pointed in your own direction.
I grew up shooting both my Auto 5 and my dads 1911 SL and I feel like the whole
" widowmaker" thing is mostly Fudlore. The one I used worked great and I don't recall any malfunctions that weren't ammo related.
I have seen several videos on them that really had a lot of false information.
If Ian does a video on the Winchester 1911SL I hope he talks to someone with actual experience with them rather than perpetuate internet misinformation. I liked shooting the Winchester better than the Browning because it was shorter and lighter.
Forgotten Weapons, where the John Browning-designed 1911 is a Winchester shotgun! 😅👍
Wonder if you could make a "guns of John Browning" playlist on the channel. If anyone deserves a dedicated section, it is him & his works. Just finished the book on him, as well.
That would be a lot of video's. If there is one thing all historical firearm channels have in common. It's that John Moses Browning comes up more often then any other weapons designer.
Well and Browning produced a lot more than military weapons. I doubt Ian wants to stray too far from focusing on military arms
@@Braindead154 He does a lot more than just military arms, he basically covers all rare or obscure firearms like the zip 22, pen guns, Apache Knuckle Duster Pistols and the Taurus Curve to name a few. He pretty much does videos on any gun he finds interesting.
@@Predator42ID could you expand on that idea? I'm not sure what you are insinuating. That all firearms are capable of performing as military arms?
@@DennisFromRLM Okay, the first firearms were created specifically for war.
Everything from the latest short recoil and gas operating systems, to the ancient wheel lock and rope igniting firearms.
Military, and civilian arms are one and the same. WWI proved this when so called hunting rifles and shotguns were pressed into to service and showed just how lethal they were and are.
Yes you have hundreds of different rounds connected to many calibers. Some are great for killing squirrels, others water bison.
All built under the foundation of people killing people.
Thank you.
98 yrs of production for the reliable pogo stick.
Makes my grandpa's old 16gauge Auto5 even cooler.
thats gotta be a nightmare to find ammo for
@@ArmyBoiSweat it's from 1926, I haven't even fired it yet. I need to get it properly restored, pretty sure there's 50-year-old engine grease in the action lol.
@@ArmyBoiSweat you can still find 16 ammo around. I have a 10 and usually find 16 when looking for non steel shot.
@@ArmyBoiSweat Yeah, my cousin has a double barrel 16 gauge his father bought around 1950. I'm not sure if 16 never really took off here, or if it was popular for awhile and just fell out of favor.
@@spiff226820 and 12 are both mentioned in the official ruleset for Trap Shooting, while 16 is not. That dealt a bad blow to the gauge, which sucks because it's like the perfect bird round. I wish it had a larger market.
In an unusual circumstance, I was given a Browning Automatic Shotgun. I took the serial number and found out from the company when the gun was made. Production stopped in 1911 with the start up of the slightly changed Model 11, however, due to having so many spare parts the company continued to assemble and sell the Auto Shotgun until 1914. Mine was assembled in 1913, according to company records. It would not cycle when I got it and I had a gunsmith disassemble it. The main recoil spring was broken and he was able to replace it! The bluing...actually browning, was heavily pitted, so he put a dark non-reflective bluing on it to stop the deterioration. It had a bakelite butt plate and I have put a slipover pad over it. Have not fired it as it is now well over 100 years old, but I have no doubt it would still fire. The finish had turned black, so I stripped it back to the stained wood, and put several coats of tung oil on it, but not to the point of being shiny. I do like it very much. And I have a later Remington on a Browning patent 20 gauge bird gun also, this one inherited from my wife's uncle!
Not having fired it is your biggest sin. What was the point of fixing it if you aren't going to fire it? My two oldest guns over 100 years old and still fire flawlessly. A Winchester Model 1873 made in 1888 and a Remington Autoloading Shotgun (Winchesters licenced Browning A5) made in 1907 pre dating when Winchester called it a Model 11. Go shoot your guns they need love not to sit around collecting dust.
@@unherolike exactly
Classic example of greed causing you to loose your golden goose and then you axe your own feet in order to rectify it 😂😂😂
John Browning was dead right on the Auto-5. It was, and is, a fine weapon. The Winchester 1911? Not nearly so much. Winchester really screwed the pooch, and in the process changed firearms history forever.
Changed firearms history forever? How?
@@terribleauthority Winchester drove Browning into FN's arms. Belgium was already known for great firearms, but after this, they had John Browning working with them.
@@lairdcummings9092 Ah. I figured that's what you meant, but wanted to be sure.
John Moses Browning was a proud man. Some would describe him as "stiff necked". He was the type to remember anything he considered a disrespectful action for quite a while. He apparently never forgave his half-brothers over their shenanigans with his father's estate.
Idk, a implementing a few ideas from 1911 to A-5 to make "definite" version doesn't seem bad. Gnarling on the barrel won't hurt A-5, but 1 in a 1000 times it may turn out to be useful.
My dad and I found one of these Winchesters, and the fiber recoil washers were all kinds of screwed up.
We never knew until we tried to take a crack at a sporting clays range, and dear God, that 1911 was _vicious._
The thing felt like it was angry at you for existing, and there we were struggling to draw a bead on clay disks with a decrepit prototype semi-automatic.
We learned some painful lessons XD
The A-5 video I’ve always wanted from you! Grew up on this gun and still have three - two browning Belgium’s. Great guns.
I've got a Winchester Model 1911 shotgun that belonged to my grandfather. It hasn't fired in years, and in fact has a split stock, which is a common feature of that model, and resulted from the fiber friction rings wearing out pretty quickly and losing their ability to slow the bolt opening. Once they got worn enough, the bolt would open so fast that the recoil would split the wooden buttstock.
This shotgun earned the name "widowmaker" because people took to resting the butt on the ground and pushing down on the barrel, especially when they needed to clear a jam -- something that was more common in the days of paper-hulled shotgun shells that would swell up with moisture. But I read of someone inadvertently killing himself with one of these guns as recently as recently as about five years or so ago. As you can imagine, trying to charged the gun or clear a jam in the manner described above leaves the muzzle pointed upward, and it's easy to get your head in front of it. Then you have a negligent discharge, and you take a dirt nap.
My favorite sporting firearm in my collection is easily my Auto-5, and not just because it's a visually and mechanically distinctive firearm. It's a very gentle weapon to fire, it's very accurate, and the weird two-stage recoil impulse I *swear* feels like it puts you back close to the target after firing.
Magnificent for sporting, and as long as your recoil ring and springs are all fresh, it's hilariously reliable.
My grandfather gave me his Belgium Browning A5 20ga. with Improved cyl. barrel in the late 60's. Took my first buck in 69' with it and the only three doves triple for three doves I shot late one afternoon with the three shell limit.
Haven't fired it likely since the very early 70's.
The Browning Legacy lives on...timeless workmanship.
I just love how this gun looks. That part where the receiver is kind of higher than the attaching part of the stock makes it look different from other shotguns
If you love this gun, you should check out a Browning Auto-5. I own 2, one in 12 gauge and one in 20. Wouldn’t trade it for any of the existing automatic shotguns out there. Absolutely magnificant. And since you like the way the “hump” looks, you will absolutely love shooting it. 👍
If you ever find yourself in Ogden Utah, there is a Browning museum at the end of 25th St. in the old Union Pacific Station. Highly recommended. They have 1 of 3 prototype 1911's used in the Army tests. The attendant told me the other two were presumed destroyed in the testing. If you want to the see 1 of the very first ever 1911's (in the white, no serial numbers) ever, stop by this place.
My Grandfather left me his Winchester 1911 auto shotgun. Thx for the video!
I love grabbing hot barrels and manually cycling them!
If you run the gun completely out of ammo you still have to grab the barrel the button on the side is just a chamber hold open you still have to pull the barrel back to open the chamber to drop the first shell in Stihl big thumbs up for this video one of my favorite channels
I have a Model 1911 with national guard proof marks. The handguard is completely shattered and non repairable. I came up with a heavier handguard and a steel tube inside and two O rings that go on either side of the Barrel ride. I haven't finished it yet, but the theory is sound.
The Auto 5 is arguably the best semi auto shotgun of all time. Simple, effective, they don't break, they don't jam. Even benelli shotguns have many moving parts and require constant maintenance more so than the A-5. I have worked on and owned both and own an A-5 in every gauge except 28. Just a fantastic weapon.
Looking at these production model Auto-5's has truly enlightened me how beautiful and unique my Grandfathers Auto-5 is.
So I shoot clays with my 1911SL and actually love it to death since it fits me so well. If you remember to press the BHO on the last round, it’s a very bearable gun, since I’m the kind of nerd that enjoys brutal recoil and strange operating mechanisms. And if you don’t, hey, surprise arm workout. Glad you finally covered this particular example of an attainable yet still (rightfully) forgotten weapon!
I always love how every single old firearm usually has a story to tell. That's more fascinating than the firearm itself
I have several A-5’s and a Remington model 11. They run great with black powder shells too!
the fact this gun exists and is in your hands is amazing. i wonder how many guns with significance like this are just part of someone’s collection through passing down and maybe a sale
A cool gun with a cool history. Now made even cooler by having been featured on Forgotten Weapons!
And the prices will start climbing...
I'm a fan of Browning Auto-5's, and to know this funky looking gun is an oddity
I've got the remington version and let me tell you, mortaring the thing by the barrel to get a stuck shell out is one of the scariest things you can do
I loved that museum… about 20 years ago, my friend and I got absolutely hammered, went to that museum, then went to a place outside of town and bought a bunch of M-80’s that we terrorized a small town in Montana with.
Cool stuff. I learn something everytime! Thank you Ian.
God bless all here.
That English style straight grip looks quite elegant. I always favored that style of grip on my bird guns. My matched Citoris have them.
@@wernervoss6357 I think he meant his Browning Citori coach gun
Browning licensed the design in America to Remington as the Remington Model 11, which led to the 11-48, then to the 1100 and 11-87, giving Remington a practical hegemony over American semi-auto shotguns. Winchester never recovered the ground they lost by letting the Auto-5 slip away.
I really love my 1911 SL, i'm the third generation in my family thats owns the gun right now, the gun fits me so well and is a really well shooting old shotgun, people who complain about it and says it's worthless or junk have never shot one i swear. The Loading mechanism is a bit unusual i agree but there is not a bad recoil in my opinion, not even close to as bad as my old SBS Husqvarna from the 60's
The Buffalo bill center of the west is on my bucket list to get to visit someday. Thanks for bringing some of what they have to those of us who cannot make it out to experience it ourselves!
Hmmm….
Browning patent- check.
FN manufacture- check.
Shipped to Browning’s shop- check.
Purchased by Winchester- check.
Used to circumvent Browning patent- check.
Cool factor: cool ^5!
Ah yes, the pre-widowmaker
Congrats Gun Jesus on the fine gloves to preserve the weapon finishes.
The level of greed required for Winchester refusing to give Browning Royalties always amazes me. Most people would kill to have a more or less guaranteed successful product even if their profit margin was a reduced.
I once watched a dude almost blow his face off with a Winchester 1911. The sear was worn to barely there status and he put it down on the pavement to cycle the cursed thing.
"yea. no. no. i dont think we really need you, actually"
story of my life.
This video is why I watch your stuff. Like being in school again. I love the details and history. Thanks.
Rejecting Browning was a bad move.
I thought no mention of the Remmy Model 11 was weird, because it was hugely successful. In fact Remington produced the Auto-5 guns for FN during WWII till FN got back going post war.
Because it is a licensed production, not a copy or an attempt to work around patents. Remington basically handled US market once they were set up, and FN did Europe. This also reflects the features offered on both. FN's was basically upscale as possible, with factory engraving and multiple custom options from the factory, while Remingtons was utilitarian, stripped down version with much less emphasis on elegance. It lacked features like the mag cutoff, and automatic chambering system.
That's the Widowmaker with vast negativity, the exact opposite of a Colt 1911. I'm very surprised he didn't bring up the Widowmaker aspect of it
And the other half of this breakup story would be the Remington Autoloading Shotgun / Model 11..
The Remington Model 11 is almost identical to the Browning auto 5
@@3349mm620z yes, close enough that while FN was occupied during WWII, Browning sold modified Model 11's as Auto 5's.
For those of you who don't know, Browning was waiting in the office to meet Remingtons Pressident, Martellus Hartley, when that gentlman died of a heart attack in the office. Figuring it would take awhile for things to settle down there, he took the design to FN for the European rights
And the OTHER other half is the Model 8.
Just snagged a Winchester 1911 a couple months ago. Fun shotguns.
So winchesters first SL’s were the 1903 .22 automatic, 1905 .32 and .35 WSL, 1907 .351 WSL , 1910 .401 WSL and 1911 .12 gauge SL…. What came after this?
I always love seeng some nice woodwork on Guns... You cant see much of that today
I had a Sweet 16 and I have a 12 g Winchester1911 and no charging handle. They didn't call it the Widow Maker for nothing. They tried to buy all them back due to more than one safety issue. The internals also have issues and can blow the bolt out of the back end into your eye. Also, the stock is a 3 piece laminated stock - 3 pieces side by side.
I drove to the Cody museum in October from Seattle, it is fantastic!
What a beautiful and elegant old shotgun!!
So this is how the Winchester "1911 Widow Maker" was developed?....
Thanks Boss always great how you tie in all kinds of historical aspects. History, Science and Engineering, Good Stuff.
Looks good to me, but not as good as my 69' FN Browning Auto 5; the best trigger that i ever squeezed.
My dad has one from Belgium 1937 I think and also a japenese one made in 1957
@@cantsneedgaming4591 Can't sneed gaming
Also known as the brutal Crown & King Auto-5 to my fellow Hunt players……
(Edit: I realize that the Crown is based off of John Browning’s A5 model, but they look similar enough nonetheless)
I would love it if Ian did an episode on the guns in hunt showdown. One of the most interesting games in terms of their firearms I've in a long time.
*tips cowboy hat*
That Crown and King moniker for the Auto 5 isn't far off if we're referencing FN Herstal's logo
cROWN & kING
bROWNING
hohoohohoho
@@normtrooper4392 I think Jonathan Ferguson from the Royal Armouries did a video on that for GameSpot. But it's just a selection, not all guns.
Edit: GameSpot, not GameStop. (Stupid Brainfart)
I am another person that learned a lot about the backstory of the Auto 5 and Winchester Model 1911. Very cool.
Funnily enough I have both a browning auto-5 and a Springfield 1911 and they are my two most favorite guns in my collection. I practice with both regularly and they both feel like an extension of my body by this point.
I love my old Winchester 1911!
I used to own a Winchester 1911 with the knurled barrel. I believe it had the nickname Widowmaker so I was very careful when loading it. It was not blued but had a silver finish.
I owned a browning 16 g 42 yrs now just love gun its an auto 5 .never had any problem except for a cracked 4 end which i fixed with fiber glass
Sometimes, the forgotten history is as interesting as the weapon itself. 👍
One thing he didn't cover on the M1911 is that button. Before opening the bolt you want to push it to the right to lock the bolt open. If you don't and load the magazine, when you cycle the bolt, the barrel will return to battery, followed by a shell being fed from the magazine and the bolt slamming it into the chamber, which wouldn't be a big deal except for the fact that sometimes these guns slam fire. And if the muzzle happens to be pointed where it shouldn't, somebody has a real bad day. Hemce, the guns nick name "Widow maker".
Winchester Agent: one auto-5 please.
JMB: You're not going to use it to circumvent my patent, are you?
Winchester Agent: N... no... no of course not, why would you even say that?
Cody firearms museum is one of my happy places.
I see the beginnings of the 1912 pump action in the details of the receiver and stock on the production examples of the 1911
Just to clear up JMB's relationship with Winchester and FN...when JMB went to WRA in 1899, with newly patented .32 Auto Pistol, the executive who dealt with JMB previously ( 1892,1894, 1895, 1897) had just died, and the replacement manager rejected the Handgun Design as mot being WRA' s market!
On leaving WRA, JMB encountered the Remington Agent to Belgium, who suggested that FN might be interested, as Auto Pistols were becoming popular in Europe...by early 1900, JMB had arranged a lucrative arrangement with FN to manufacture the now M1900 Pistol ( on a Royalty Basis); they also took on the 1900 Patent 5 shot shotgun ( 1905 A5), of which a first lot were destined the JMB family shop in Ogden.
As JMB had given WRA the ultimatum of Royalty payments rather than Patent Sale ( as had happened since 1885 HighWall), Winchester tried to evade the Patents as described by Ian.
Not that it did much good to WRA; Browning (FN) had already cornered the Market ( and Browning had also registered the Patent in USA furthermore, Remington was FN agent in USA, and introduced its own Auto under FN/ Browning Licence.
Although During WWI, WRA cooperated with JMB on the BAR, M1917, and .50 cal. Ammo, that rejection ofthe 1899 Auto pistol design cost Winchester dearly. Colt got all the Pistol and MG Patent Licences, BMJ gave his Colt 1911, BAR and MG patents to the US gov't at No charge ( I think a nominal $1.00 was mentioned)
Doc AV
Overall, a very cool looking gun.
Jim Milton
Thomas Crossley Johnson worked on the Win. '11 to get around the Browning patents.
Winchester M1911: patent infringement done... poorly...
Forgetting that suppressors get hot is indeed a very unpleasant surprise, and I have the scar to prove it. 😄
Cody really has some of the coolest collectable firearms. Not always the highest value...though I am sure some of them are worth more than I make in a year, but they just have these little special firearms that have an important part in development.
T. C. Johnson actually did a pretty remarkable job of working around Browning's patents in developing the 1911. Unfortunately, couldn't work around the operating lever patent. Thus the "widow maker" arrangement.
Winchester: “We have Browning A-5 at home”
I have like 10 Remington model 11s and they are basically the same as an A5. Guess Remington actually paid for the patent and wasn't stubborn like Winchester
Patents are issued to people, NOT companies. Companies often buy (for a nominal fee) those patents. JM Browning, being an independent designer, might "assign the rights" for a flat fee, or on a "fee per unit" basis. Accountants (our beloved "bean counters") don't like to send checks every "X" number of units. That requires counting.
Isn't part of the story that when Winchester turned him down, he first shopped the design to Remington, and was in the waiting room about to talk to the pres. of Remington, when the pres. died of a heart attack, and they wheeled his body past JMB. He then made the trip to Belgium. I believe this was the gun he was there to shop to Rem.,( I could be wrong). I believe Remington used some auto-5 influence in their own model 11 as well.
If I had knowledge of agents trying to incur in corporate espionage, I would individually sell each gun at an exorbitant price! Normal buyers would be turned off, but alas, simply a test, for the agent would no doubt buy it without hesitation and inform Winchester of the price, causing them to produce and sell an inferior product at an unreasonable cost.
Wouldn't help, the patents are public, and even if they were somehow not able to acquire an example, a tool room demonstrator wouldn't be difficult to make. Ironically it would force Winchester to start from scratch, instead of copying and removing or working around patents, and probably end up with a better end product.
In between going to Winchester and then going to Belgium, JMB paid a visit to Remington to make a deal with them. The President of Remington then had a heart attack and died while JMB was waiting outside his office. If that meeting had successfully been made then Browning may not have done the deal with FN until later, if at all. Browning eventually licensed the design to Remington who made a lot of them as well. He never made another gun for Winchester after that.
I have to admit, my eyes passed over "Winchester" so I was expecting to see how a hangdun was made from a shotgun.
Cody also has a "dug up" museum. These are guns as they were dug up from the ground by metal detector enthusiasts and at construction sites and by cave explorers. Some were from previously unknown battlefields. None of these arms have been restored or had mud rinced off with water. You may want to do a show on this site. These guns were actually DOING history when they were lost.
The fact that the guy that suggested cycling the gun by grabbing the barrel wasn't immediately shouted down and threatened that he'd be sweeping floors if he kept it up just shows Winchester was really, really out of ideas!
I'd honestly love to see some of those JMB patent models next time you go out to Cody. Getting to see how he originally built them up to work; and then comparing how Winchester's people refined them would be so enlightening
Depends on which ones you want to see, most of the actual patent models are in Ogden at the Browning museum. Cody has the unproduced models Winchester bought for patent trolling.
I am currently reading the JMB biography Ian recently reviewed, and in there it recounts that Browning had gone to Colt, who were happy to pay royalties, that it was a Colt international salesman that first introduced JMB to FN, and that he went to FN with the shotgun because Colt was not interested in making them.
Colt gonna colt I guess.
as an Ogden resident, I love seeing these esoteric Browning guns
Thank you , Ian .
That looks amazing to think that Browning me of actually touched it is really cool. I own a Browning auto-5 sweet 16 one of the hundred-year Centennial version they used to hunt squirrel and rabbit with its art
It might be better to add a non-reciprocating charging handle between the barrel and the magazine tube.
The one that does not touch the barrel until pulled back; so that it does not become hot during the shooting.
The magazine tube being its guide.
I have a 1913, still flawless and my favorite gun next to my mauser sporter. Its an Auto 6 with Aguila shells btw😁👍
I own a Widow Maker, it is a awesome piece of engineering.
Winchester 1911..... The Fake Rolex of Auto shotguns.😏
I have always heard the same story ian told n this video. However in the book Guns Of JMB it states that Browning wanted royalties and Winchester agreed but the relationship was a bit rocky at the time. A little while later, when he had built the A5, JMB was worried Winchester wouldn't build the A5, just buy the patent and sit on it to keep others from having it. So JMB told Winchester he wanted an emourmous royalty for the A5, figuring they would say no and he could then go to FN. Which is what Winchester did, and JMB and Winchesters relationship ended.
Fascinating. Thanks Ian.
I just got my copy of The Guns of John Moses Browning, thanks for recommending! I almost don’t want to give it away to my dad, it’s such an interesting book.
Oh my God...Winchester says to Papa Browning, we don't need you!?! What kind of business model is that?!?
Apparently the same one that Colt adopted 😆
eey my home state getting some good ol' browning rep, LETS GOOOOOO
More proof how amazing John Moses Browning was.
Winchester: Browning? I THOUGHT WE HAD SOMETHING SPECIAL!!!
JM Browning: Hi, are you in town?
Winchester agent: Yeah. John, I'd like to buy one of those Auto-5s.
JMB: Really, what do you want to do with that?
Winchester agent: Can't say.
Such a cool video and rich history to this