ROVER'S INCREDIBLE LOST SUPERCAR - The Rover P6 BS And Why It Was TOO GOOD For Jaguar
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- in this video we cover what is probably the most mysterious and mad Rover P6 ever made a Rover supercar that is lost to time the Rover P6 BS. I cover how this car was too successful and could have gone up against some of the supercars of its day.
The car even proved allegedly too much for Jaguar at the time which I explore in this video. This is another British Leyland mistake and a big one at that, this car can probably be attributed to the beginning of Rover’s downfall and with it the eventual decline of the British car industry.
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I have credited where possible but as usual I would like to add AROnline are an incredibly valuable source of information and you should check them out here: www.aronline.c...
I used some of my photos from AROnlines great P6 BS article: www.aronline.c...
One of their worst missteps was ignoring BMC/BL Australia, which developed and designed some very interesting riffs on bog-standard UK product in the 60s and 70s. From the Blue Streak Six in the Farina saloons and the Tasmin/Kimberley progression from the 1800/2200 cars, to the Leyland P76...
At the time of launch, wasn't everyone amazed that the E-Type was so cheap? At £2250 it was just over half the price of a Porsche 356. If they'd charged Porsche money for the Jag - but also gone to the trouble of making it reliable - they could've made this as well.
Still more than a detached house Chris..
E-types were reliable
@@philtucker1224 £4500 in 1961 is around £84,000 today. More than a Cayman, less than a 911, about the same as a Lotus Emira, doesn't seem unreasonable.
A 356C wasn't "twice the car" of an E Type, and this Rover would've been roughly as quick as the Porsche too.
Congratulations for this report.
My first Rover was a 2000 TC and my brothers had several P6 3500s. Then I had a SD1 3500 from 1978 and a 1984 SD1 Vitesse. All of these Rover models had a special appeal and the Vitesse in particular was a fantastic car.
Then the German state came along and made it difficult to drive the Vitesse with high taxes and catalytic converter technology.
Today I maintain the Rover MG brand with many fans and own a Rover 75 1.8 with 290,000 km and an MG TF 135 cool blue.
Many greetings from Germany and I look forward to further interesting reports from you.
I lived in Earlsdon Coventry in the late 60s. I saw this car parked outside a shop in Earlsdon Street, and recognised it from the Motor Sport road test. It could have replaced all the MG/Triumph sports cars with different off the shelf powertrains
Perhaps a transverse four cylinder (from a front drive car) for the cheaper cars, and a few subtle changers to styling.
I too lived near Earlsdon up to 1970. My brother and I shared several P4s and I had a couple of P5s. A friend's father had a P6 which we occasionally borrowed. All lovely, interesting cars. Loved Rovers in their independent days.
With reference to the 2000 crash picture, when I was a boy in the 80s all children's books about cars had a picture of an SD1 slamming into some concrete as a good example of crumple zones.
And a cutaway picture of a shortened Chevette with a boot full of batteries, as if the future cars were electric or something.
Another grate video Tom, I’d quite like a video on the history of rovers factories and head offices, I’d like to know more about rovers ancestral home in Coventry especially as I can find very little information on it.
That is a good idea, I don’t know much about them myself. I’ll see if I can find something
Some great research you've done on this. What a shame that innovation was stifled by internal rivalry. Things may have been very different if Rover had been allowed to remain independent.
I think if BL never happened it would’ve been a different world. The same really with the square windows on the Comet.
Allowed to ŕemain independent ? They were utterly bankrupt maki ng out of date junk and only surviving on government handouts.
I wish you could name and shame the directors and unions who killed Rover and the British Car Industry
There are some you can, some you can’t…. That’s all I’ll say ;)
Name and shame for what, doing their jobs? The entire point of a union is to negotiate working conditions, if the members of management at the companies whos' workers these unions represented refused to come to an agreement then it's management that's to blame, not the unions.
Never let yourself be fooled into advocating for human suffering.
@@christopherwilliams9418 Did you live through the sixties and seventies as an adult ???
......I did !
and while on paper you are correct about a unions mission objective, THAT categorically ISNT what happened though.
The Union leaderships were infiltrated from early on by marxist communists and Trotskyists with the sole secretive aim being to collapse the British economy into total bankrupsy and ruin, and bring about a communist revolution by killing British industry using any means necessary, this isnt open to debate, it was a plain fact. even worse when there was a Labour Government whom the Unions through T.U.C party contributions virtually owned.
From the late sixties through the entire seventies they deliberately ramped up and initiated mass worker walk outs to shut any business they could, the creation of British Leyland was a gift from heaven for them to speed up their aims and objectives.
Please enlighten us all on any "human suffering" that was advocated in this Country by employers, from MY direct memory being part of it all at the time - the only suffering that occured was through incessant sixteen and eighteen week all out strikes called by unions, when managements offered say a six percent pay increase when the inflation rate was at four or five percent........ the unions would DEMAND fifteen and sixteen percent pay rises, this wasnt to make the workers better off, it was done because it WAS unreasonable, unaffordable and unsustainable the whole INTENTION being to bring the company down NOT benefit its workforce.
In the mid seventies it was actually common place for MORE people to be on strike in the entire country at any given time than were actually working due to such things as "worker solidarity" being enforced upon unrelated businesses by virtue of "flying pickets" calling on the workforce's of those neighbouring businisses to down tools and walk out in sympathy ... have you ever heard of the "winter of discontent" ? THAT happened under the LABOUR government of Jim Callahan...if you havent already I would urge you to do some research, those of us who lived through those years will NEVER forget what happened AND who really caused it and WHY. Arthur Scargill, Mick Megahey and several more were actively being funded hansomely by the Soviets...while families up and down the country were on the bread line.......Arthur and Mick certainly werent.
@@christopherwilliams9418
perhaps you could have a word with the BMA
@@tomdrives just seem a very good utube on the MGs in paris at a retro car show. most of the cars are from Gaydon.
Would make a very good feature to film MGs and Rovers in the historical museum.
if only we had HG Wells time machine Tom
Back to the 50s gor me like 😊
I’m thinking the same thing
the styling was very similar
Such a shame that it never went to mass production. Looking forward to seeing the prototype I Gayden soon
I had no idea it even was a concept , let alone a car ,,, great video.
Thanks Tom
William Towns styled the BRM Turbine LeMans car.
The P8 looked amazing unique styling language on the green rendering.
Gorgeous prototype. Looks gorgeous with the Rostyle wheels or minilight wheels.
Really enjoyed. Like 147
Glad you did Edgar, you suggested it ;)
Please the Aquila 😊 prototype such an underrated UK car. I loved that prototype as a kid. I saw it in cars that time forgot book early 90s. It was red in the photo. Along with rovers in this vid. Should have been taken seriously its equal to the 1972 R5 people need to know about it.
Keep doing what you do.
I'm a glass artist I'm going to make you a wee present. Avatar is what I do in stain glass. I appreciate Tovers MG of all ages including the last.
I especially love late 50s to 77 Rovers.
The 1967 pininfarina BMC Arodynamica spelling pre CX
Needed a michelotti design and a triumph badge
Know they wanted it badged an Alvis, ideally however based on brand recognition in export markets it should have been MG badged as a precursor to the MG EX-E although a case could possibly be made as a Triumph (leaving TR7 as an MG). The P6 BS or P9 could have also furthered their success with an entry-level four-cylinder model like the Lotus Esprit post-fuel crisis, by way of the 127 hp 2-litre 16v Triumph Sprint or ~142-170 hp 2.2-litre Rover P10 engines.
I remember in the 60's the Rover P6 was streets ahead of the Triumph 2000 in terms of build quality and driveability.
Great work Tom 👍👏
Great research, I always loved Rovers as a kid and aspired to own one in later life. If the P6BS had been produced, that would have been the pinnacle of my aspirations at the time. With what was going on with BL etc, at the time, I'm not surprised this got away, with little or no mention of its existence. I can remember the troubles that were nightly on TV news programmes. Now that your research has opened the door, to discover that Rover had no seat at the table, answers many questions. This must have been easy for Jaguar to reject, as their biggest seller would have been blown out of the water by the P6BS. Must have been BL's biggest blunder at that stage of existence if not of all time.
I think if Rover and Jaguar and even Triumph were grouped together apart from Leyland. They could've been better contenders, especially if they were kept all independent it's a shame British car companies in the 70s all went the same route thus into self destruction
It looked much nicer with the Minilites than the standard P6 wheeltrims it wears now. A great might-have-been for sure, but I think failing to produce the SD1 estate was the biggest missed opportunity of all.
Rover had never built a "sports car" before so it would be hard to sell. The P6 was defined by its size, a strict 4 seater with not much luggage space compared to the P5. The design strategy was all wrong at the time and the inter company (BMC/BL) rivalry just allowed the unions to trash Britain's major car producers. It was only by luck they had the Buick V8 that kept them going.
Thank you for the video tom, and the effort you have put into getting the facts and information, top job.
A family member had a 2000 TC P6, it was a rotbox, horrible thing.
This prototype looks ugly as f, it's as if they put the headlamps on the rear end accidently, the proportions are so wrong.
A supercar of the same era from those 'Italians' was a beautiful thing.
Lamborghini Miura P400, absolutely stunningly beautiful. Ferrari Dino GT, fabulous thing. Maserati Mistral great looking car.
Even the Yanks were doing ok with the Shelby GT350 Fastback, and the Ford GT40 mk3. The Corvette Stingray too, and the Cobra 427.
The UK had the Lotus Elan S2, a fantastic and beautiful car.
Zee Germans had the 911 S, an iconic machine.
This was called by the correct name 'BS' because it was just a load of BS.
Thanks terribly. This video made my day.
Nevertheless we still had the SD1, still one of the most beautiful saloon cars in my opinion.
near me in central france at a car show, i saw a crayford rover p6 2 door, lovely thing it was too, on english plates
As you were asking, Tom, I have a suggestion for a future video - The Rover SD1 in motor sport.😊
Thanks Mark, I can’t say much about that one other than YES.
Ironic - who copied who? this prototype came out two years before Porsche's 914 with a very similar design
Rovers were a great car, unfortunately they always were treated with stupid remarks by top gear.
Should we have had two companies,
Austin Rover MG
Triumph Jaguar
One perhaps both would still be going. With a little investment and the opportunity to compete with each other.
Still. Moot point now
thats such a shame! my dad had an sd1 i thought it was fantastic as a kid
I can't help wondering how successful this would have been in motorsport, dominating track and rallies.
One Of the Great What Ifs 8:54
Kinda like the look of it although it's a bit ungainly. However, all things considered, BL would have managed to completely screw it up if it had gone into production.
@Tom Drives , thank you great work man
Q, how comes the P6 and the Triumph 2000 looked so alike ???
Thanks Matthew, it’s the styling of the time they were probably the first British saloons from what I’ve read built to sell on the continent.
@@tomdrives Iv allways preferred saloon cars to hatchbacks , I think !
Ge some great looking saloons like 👍
@@matthewc.419I’m the same, sadly though saloons aren’t as popular anymore. Not all bad though there’s still the old stuff!
As always top drawer content 💥
I’m getting clan crusader vibes
That’s a name I haven’t heard in a while, the Crusader has a larger overhang at the front but I see the resemblance
P6 was okay but not a great car just slightly eccentric. The Triump 2000 was s better bit of kit.
'one of BL's biggest mistakes' that's a very long list. A lack of competent leadership would seem to be the worst to me
Interesting. Whilst it was obviously potentially a good car, I suspect that, as a top of the range sports car , it wouldn't have sold a huge number - more of a prestige project to an extent. And if you are competing directly against Jag E-types and Italian supercars, it might have a hard time and consume loads of money! And one thing BL were exceptionally bad at was developing cars from prototypes to production ready cars - in fact there was often little development at all, with BL releasing cars that were patently unready onto the market. Maybe Rover on their own would have been better. One odd little detail I noticed on the prototype - Right Hand Drive, but Left Hand Drive wipers! Why? As for whether it was BL's greatest mistake, well, there are almost too many to pick from - it could be a whole separate video for you - BL's greatest mistakes!
What video do I want next? - an update in the straight 6 SD1!
Did you see the last one Joe? I’ve got a few bits on this month to sort it so next one will be week after next.
@@tomdrives My impatience should be regarded as a sign of who much your videos are appreciated.
@@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391thanks how I see it to, glad you enjoy them.
off centre engine with a chain drive. Did i get that right ???
Yes,
Is that P6B S rather than P6 BS?
I’ve always seen it stylised as BS because of Buick Sports
I think B L suffered from B S .
@@tomdrives There's already the Buick variants P5B and P6B, so P6B Sport seems to make more sense.
@@KarlHamilton ah, see that does make sense thanks as always Karl. They were going to call it the P9 as far as I’m aware though so I don’t think they put that much thought into the name. On everything I’ve seen it was P6 BS.
great concept, but it looked way too kit car to be a success on the market, very polarising looks, to be diplomatic.
Are you referring to the white car or black one?
@@tomdrives the white one.
I agree. It would have undergone a lot of smoothing of design to sell well in our domestic market back then.
It was a prototype 'mule' not the final car
Think we know what the BS stood for!. It was obvious that whoever designed the bodywork obviously owned a box of Lego!! ...awful. The "E" reg i believe was 1967, my Dad had a E reg Mk2 Lotus Cortina & that looked a lot better!!
Have to agree - it looks like a very cheap kit car you stuck a Ford Cortina engine in LOL
Looks naff… good idea to cancel it.
It looks cobbled together and uncohesive. I bet it would have stood a better chance if it was a nicer design.
This is a testing car, sadly it never got to the advanced body design stages
A 914 designed while on LSD. Typical British offering. Over promised and under delivered. Mercifully the "stop for a cuppa" labor force did not get a chance to further ruin this already marginal design.
@@jkoysza1 it’s a engineering car… a prototype.
Yes, it is an engineering prototype. Imagine it after the cost-cutters had their way with it.
I guess I am still irritated after my ownership of a Hillman Avenger, an MG and other fine British autos.
UK police drive BMWs, VWs and Mercedes vans. Motorcycle escorts for the royal family are BMWs. Does not speak well of in-country designs.
But it was so ugly!
Missed opportunity or not given BL's resume can you just imagine how badly banged together this poor car would have been?
Besides being fugly It didn't happen for very good reasons.
I worked for a company between 1969 & 1973, in an engineering position, that supplied components to Rover. I saw the P9 ,as it was known running around,quite an impressive car. I also saw the P8 prototype ( the P5B replacement),the P6 replacement was the P10,which never proceeded beyond the clay model stage,as you showed later. The reason that the P8/P9/P10 never proceeded was Leyland did not have the finances,the SD1 was financed by the government,who had previously interfered to force the formation of British Leyland.
I have been a P6 owner since 1969, a 2000TC 1969-1973 & a 1971 P6B 1974 to date. I still use it infrequently,however living in South Africa since 1973 had challenges. They & other Leyland products were assembled here in Cape Town with appalling quality! The specification of systems like cooling was woefully inadequate for the climate here, additionally the roof panel was not properly sealed & consequently body rot ensued ,plus the engine supplied was the 10.5 litre C.R. requiring 101 Octane fuel,whereas 98 was the highest ever avaiable here. I worked in the motor industry in an engineering position (at VW),thus was able to solve the problems & assist others.
What killed Rover was the forced amalgamation into BL as the profits made were plowed into BMC for negative results.
Great video. Have seen this car & i think with a few cosmetic changes it would've been a great success. I remember the 60's & 70's & at that time the Rover name was still respected & associated with quality. Bad management installed by politician's was the killer of the whole BMC / BL company. Rover having no proper representation at the top really hurt our favourite marque
It reminds me of the Porsche 914 to look at. Excellent video as usual!
Thanks Mark! I thought the same
The Porsche 914/8 (aka 914 S) that was built as gift for Ferry Porsche, is probably closest.
914 was as much a VW "push-me-pull you" as the later Boxter in design. Porsche are yet to design a good looking car in my opinion.
Excellent episode! I’ve read about this model in the past, and this additional info was very welcome.
It is a fantastic looking car. Even with the early design it had so much going for it and yes BL F*cked up royaly.
The design was way ahead of it's time.
It’s a shame isn’t it, reading what I read it would’ve been incredible.
Front gives me the feeling of a Clan Crusader.
biggest mistake was letting a small to average size company take over a company that had quality as good as rover did at the time, the money they spent on the p6 in crash development was unheard of in that time , leyland was the downfall
Good point Jon
Yet another great informative video and BL's missed opportunities unfortunately the company was it's own worst enemy
I never knew about this project car.Great video thanks.I did know about the gas turbine project."BL" ironically had some very fine engineers but sadly we all know the rest of what got built.
Thanks Glenn, it’s one of those that usually slips the net with most people. No videos on here on its history other than mine.
@@tomdrives Well I thought I knew the lions share on "BL" projects but learned alot here.Your never too old to learn.Good man.
An amazing RUclips article...loved the passion for Rover...
The UK in the seventies politically and workers unions was just crazy!!! That’s why the British public voted for Maggie Thatcher…. The Iron Lady!!!
Living in New Zealand at the time….. one just laughed at the actions of the unions in the UK…..they were killing the goose that laid the golden egg!!!
You can’t get me ‘cause I’m part of the union until the day I die!!!!
Regards Ian 👨🎤🇳🇿👍😂😂👌
Don't blame William Lyons, it was BL policy that the component companies shouldn't compete with each other. Lyons wasn't allowed to build a small coupe because that was a job for Triumph. In the end, no one could develop anything as there wasn't any money. Who to blame? Ultimately UK government for allowing a financial system that hasn't supported manufacturing since WWII, because the return on investment is too low and takes too long. With better finance, we could have had more modern, efficient factories, more independent companies and no 'rationalisation' into BL. Yes, we'd still have lost some, but we might well have kept Rover, Jaguar, and MG and Mini as healthy independent UK owned entities
I would suggest “BS” being in the name probably didn’t help. It’s difficult to think about the talent and innovation available in British car design and manufacturing without getting bloody angry with frustration at its self destruction.
Agree this could have been a real world beating sports car ---- and they threw it away for the XJS and TR7
Yes they made an arse of it again by axing this wonderful car greetings from Scotland 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
Great videos. But as you chat you just keep repeating the the same pictures.Gets a bit boring to be honest.
It was all the same in Britains car, shipping industry the strikes and governments ruined it.
Very cool tantalising car. Looks a little like the (later) Porsche 914 from the side. I think the P9 revision tidied it up nicely but still like the original prototype, and assume the P9 no longer exists?
From what I’ve read the P9 prototype no longer exists sadly
Mi manca Rover, abbandonata da Bmw come una reietta. Fossi un Inglese non comprerei da Bmw che l'ha seppellita, scippando la Mini.
Ho sempre apprezzato soprattutto la P5 (mi piacerebbe trovare una buona guidaxa sinistra qui in Italia) e la P6, ma anche la 3500, forse mandato in produzione troppo in fretta
British leyland... Wtf man... They could have sold it still as a "peoples super car"
Another hit which was promptly turned into a miss in 1968
Similar looking to a karmen Ghia from volkswagon.
Who is Karmen?
And what is a Volkswagon?
Another what could have been Tom great story of the Rover P6 BS V8 👍👍👍👍👍👍
Thanks Neil, good to see you here again.
Sir William Lyons of Jaguar, killed the Alvis P6BS/P9, has he saw it, as threat to his V12 engined E-Type.
And ultimately to be developed into a mid engined Grand Tourer, using the the failed XJ13 Le Mans Race Car project. as a base.
That, that car would become the XJ-S. (Still with rear buttresses, but now front engined).
Not many ppl know this but it took 10 years to bring the P6 into production, first laid down as a concept during Britain's still rampaging austerity. Its design was also so alien and space age in delivery, a car that could easily change any panel and fully dismantlable. Not so cool was the rear brake discs and a real pain to get to them but mechanics already working on Jags with the same hindrance got round that, was a sweaty job but thankfully the rear pads lasted long enough not to be a pain.
They did not learn from this, same mistake in 1969 with the MG ADO21
To me the MG looked a lot better, but the P9 looks better.
BMW made a big mistake in not positioning Rover as a modern British performance brand instead trying to go retro. Jaguar made the same mistake with cars like the X type.
Multiple ways they could’ve done it differently, one way that would’ve been successful is not to lampoon the company when it just launched a new car
BMW didn't make a mistake, they purposefully excluded Rover from making any models or selling in any markets that would put them into competition with their own cars. Then they asset stripped the company and destroyed it, not a mistake, but company policy !
@@tomdrives I remember seeing the launch of the 75 on TV. All the cars, the fanfare, even the cars horns were tuned to play a tune. Then Bernd Pischetsrieder made his speech 'we are pulling out of Rover' they sold the company and left airfields full of unsold cars due to his Ratner moment. He didn't work for BMW for very long after that.
The stupidest aspect of all this is that the P9 would have been aimed at an entirely non-Jaguar market. In Mercedes language, the E-Type "SL" had over the years become an "SLC", something Jaguar had already accepted in the development of the XJS. The P9 was more like the C111 (without the Wankel), which Mercedes never put into production. So Sir William Lyons presumably blocked the P9 more out of pure feeding envy than any commercial considerations (Jaguar at the time had no light midengined car in planning). All the same, Rover was not a known quantity in the sports car market, and would have had to have made a name for itself by either racing or rallying the P9. Also let's face it, the market for such cars was always tiny, and Rover would have been up against the very charismatic Italians with their race-developed engines. Then came the oil crisis in 1973. Maybe the lost opportunity wasn't that major.
Howdy Tom, I had a Triumph 2500PI MD in Tassie in the early 80s, a truly magical car, so the Rocer P6BS would be the holy graile.. The short sighted controllersallowed the opportunities to slip away, truly love the Buick Rover Leyland, I am an Aussie, v8, but never allowed to reach full potential. BL at it's peak, sadly
As a young lad, I used to get the an annual from Motor ? I can’t remember, that had a summary of road tests, they also had prototypes and low volume cars E.g. TVR Griffith 4.7 etc. they as you mentioned tested the P6 BS , they raved about it from memory, fast forward to two weeks ago, I visited Gaydon motor museum, and the P6 BS was sat there 👌🏻😎
Great video, the Rover SD1 should have had the four door saloon and five door estate in the line up. These were built but didn't enter production. The Rover 800 should have had a convertible and a estate as well. The tourer came close but the convertible mockup should have been built. Then there's the Leyland Princess, surely a Riley and Vandan Plas with the hatchback/estate and five speed gearbox, the 1800 during the prototype stage did have a hatchback and carried the Riley badge. If this wasn't annoying enough then the Austin Maxi saloon with the 1800cc engine taken from the MGB but detuned would have been the sports saloon or even a three door hatchback which could have carried the Cooper or MG badges.
Tom you are absolutely right. The neglect and the allowed failure of Rover has got to be one of the biggest mistakes of the 20th and 21st century. People these days don't seem to realise that Rover would have gone on to be the British equivalent of BMW if it weren't for a few silly mistakes, short sightedness and straight up greed. I honestly just think there are too many mistakes and too many coincidences for there not to be some sort of greater conspiracy in all this but I'm sure we'll find out someday. I think the company was intentionally sabotaged anyway.
They may have axed this but at least they kept the all agro that would probably succeed if they hadn't changed the design. I had a 1973 P6 3500S fantastic car to drive
Considering everything but the body panels were off-the-shelf parts, I wonder how difficult one of these would be for someone to build as a kit car? I really like the concept with the eyelids...
There are lots of this wish they had made them prototypes in the British Motor Museum. This car is a interesting sports car and the little BL ADO70 from the 1969 is a interesting looking thing as well and give future styling hints to the Morris Marina.
lancia fulvia coupe?
It reminds me of the Matra M530R from 1968.
I wonder how it handled with the offset engine and the likely uneven weight distribution on the 4 wheels. Also a chain drive at that horsepower would be a maintenance issue…and access to inspect and adjust it…….and the engine parts..jammed in the back…..I’d say some clear heads prevailed.
4x4s have been using chain drives in the transfer cases for many years, they rarely give any trouble even at super high milages.
4x4s have been using chain drives in the transfer cases for many years, they rarely give any trouble even at super high milages.
@@popuptoaster I suspect that the transfer case duty is less than the duty of transferring all the engine torque to the rear wheels…around half the duty probably…which makes quite a difference to the component life.
😮😢please can you tell me what bs stands for on this car ,thanks
I say in the video Buick Sport
What a Ugly car.