@@TomRogueDice They changed the wording of fly to point to the profile's move value, rather than giving everything blanket 12". Fly now gives a blanket 4" foot movement though. So Gully having 6" in profile is a problem, which will hopefully get changed to higher.
The control zone rule must consider movement distance when checking if a charge is impossible. Almost all charges would be possible with unlimited movement and the new rule would be basically useless.
23:48 if youbdon't have enough movement then the charge is impossible! Look at the example picture in the rule book as it clearly shows an example in which thr charging model can move around the back but doesn't choose to.
I disagree with the running out of movement and therefore cant charge as it was "possible". Because if half an inch is too little, than 50 inch is the same and there is likely a way to run all the way around the terrain and charge them on the backside. So if saying you cant charge as your movement was just out, means nothing would ever be impossible unless terrain fully cuts the map in half without interruption. The movement should qualify as it being impossible otherwise RAW youre never charging.
I think with dropping gear when dismounting, it has to match the options a Model can take, not limited to the models that GW made. -> you cann't take a warrior of Rohan with Bow and Shield, but you can take Boromir with Banner & Shield so he doesn't have to drop it.
I’d have to dig out my old books to remember 100% but back in the day nobody could carry a bow and a shield at the same time. Riders of Rohan had a special rule that allowed it while mounted, but when dismounted had to discard one. This is a just basically going back to that I think.
Also in a game I had, Lord Thorne charged an Orc Captain, declared a heroic Challenge, the Captain then accepted the challenge as he was locked in combat anyway. The extra attack and wounding on 4s let me flash, kill the captain, and get my might back with a cheap very basic hero. I'm definitely a big fan of the new challenge.
Not sure if you misunderstood heroic accuracy: the warriors shooting at cavalry may re roll failed itw rolls. But hitting the rider is still a successful itw roll. Only the hero calling it gets sharpshooter and he gets to pick mount or rider and he does not have to make a itw roll for it. He just hits whatever he targeted per the sharpshooter rule.
Easterling pikes will benefit from the +1 to wound since they can carry shields and are more often in the front. Personally all pikes should get the bonus against cav including supporting. That’s the whole point of a pike wall.
About the debate on whether one could ignore a models control zone if your move isn't enough to charge it: I'd say Ian is right. The distinction Scott is making about it being impossible to charge vs you not having enough move to charge doesn't make sense to me. In the example we are using, we're talking about spear supports behind a battle line, correct? Who ostensibly have their backs exposed? So theoretically, if I had 60" of movement, I could go around the battle line and charge that model. So it's not that it's impossible to charge, it's that I don't have enough move. So every case is a case of not having enough movement, unless they're talking about models that are literally impossible to access from any side, which doesn't seem to be the case.
The text in the book mentions being impossible to charge due to the placement of other models around the model who is impossible to charge. It does not mention because you don't have the move distance to get there, a common situation that has already existed. This situation is more important for the edges of lines. We know the intent about middle of lines being the reason this was added. Regardless, it's been placed on FAQ submission list that I organize.
I think you misunderstood the dismounting to Wargear model. So the example given says you discard gear so it represents a legal dismounted model in this case a warrior of Rohan. A warrior of Rohan can't legally have multiple gear loadouts, so you discard down to one of the options you can select. With a hero, you can take multiple gear, by your same logic you could never take a foot Boromir with Banner and Shield as there is no official model.
Whats your guys take on the multiple spears supports thing? In friendly games i will still play it as only 1 spear support per model but could be a point of contention in tournaments
I can't see any reasonable TO ruling otherwise. The game has been this way for so long, I doubt even the rules lawyers would be able to pull this one off even if there's an argument going by RAW. I think it'll be okay!
Quick follow up question for Lothlorien banners. Could a galadrhim warrior pass off a banner to a guard of the galadrhim court model if it was pike supporting the banner? Both units can take 'just' a banner if im not mistaken and have their only weapon options replaced by the banner and both have heavy armour. (unless the new legacy profile says otherwise) :) Thanks :)
23:40 If a Warrior had 75” move, he could walk all the way around the shield wall to get the spear support. 😂 What are we talking about here guys? The models move distance dictates what IS and what ISN’T possible to charge.
38:35 Once again, are we reviewing the rules or finding the most obscure rules lawyering angles to discuss? Boromir gets dismounted and has a shield, if my Boromir on foot with banner has a shield, I’m using it. As is. This discussion dies when you look at Realms of Men. Mounted King’s of Men models with kits, never made.
42:52 I think the social construct falls apart when you lose priority then try to pass Heroic in an attempt to lure your opponent into showing his cards first. No, you lost priority, you call first. If you don’t, then I can choose not to and we move on. You’ve had your chance.
Gotcha... less to learn for you guys! However, technically it didn't work that way in the past - you were allowed to change your mind and call even if your opponent passed, it happened frequently in most tournament play that I've attended.
At 59:18 can you guys confirm the monsters getting attacks against supporting units rules… Do monsters using normal strikes now get one additional strike on every unit supporting a model they kill over and above the number of attacks on their profile? E.g. Troll with 3 attacks rolls well and uses normal strikes to kill 3 units that were attacking him and therefore it also gets 3 more strikes against each of the spearmen supporting the 3 models he killed for 6 strikes total (and would get 6 additional strikes if there were theoretically two pikemen supporting each of the models he killed for 9 strikes total). Also, if he only killed two out of three models in base contact with him with his normal three strikes he would still get two additional strikes - one on each of the spearmen he killed (or 4 in the case of pikes). This seems to be my understanding from how you guys worded it… But that seems insanely strong though… It would be strong enough and better balanced in my opinion if they had the ability to strike spear supports if they kill the model in front but only up to the number of attacks on their profile… helping them make full use of their profile power and chew through models faster instead of being tagged by one warrior with a spear support and only risking one model a turn to do so… but potentially doubling or tripling their number of attacks to wound as this implies is WAY overpowered for any random monster to have… it would mean a cave troll having a rule almost as good as Sauron’s Unstoppable rule.
It isn’t a number of bonus strikes, rather each supporting model takes a strike. If you kill a model that’s fighting the monster, each model supporting it takes one strike each. So if a model supported by 2 pikes is killed, both pike supports would take a strike each.
@ Ah yeah, that’s what I meant… probably didn’t word it very well. Still means it is theoretically possible for any bog standard 3 attack monster to kill 9 models in one turn though (if it kills three models in base contact and each of those three models have two pike supports each which each take one strike and die). Not to mention monsters with more than three attacks being able to kill even more… Of course killing all 9 is pretty unlikely… but just the possibility is pretty insane and killing 6 (wounding on 3s) would be quite possible in a lot of cases… which is still double the maximum they could kill in one go before. That is an insanely huge buff for all monsters. Especially combined with a heroic combat and the changes to heroic strike. For example, the Balrog would be crazy now with a free heroic combat every turn and potentially almost doubling the number of models he can kill in each fight with this rule change. And a huge number of good hero’s have no chance of heroic striking to a 10 to match him not (not even Gil-galad) and the few hero’s with fight 7 with heroic strike are expensive and can only match him 1/3 of the time now or just burn a might they could have used on the duel role. But Gwahir, eagles and ents are also insane considering evil heros mostly have lower fight values so very few could match them either. Thanks for clarifying though! Damn that is a massive buff for all monsters though in my mind… huge.
@ To be fair, the ‘feed the monster one model a turn while you crush the rest of their army’ strategy can still work… just not much point in using a spear support for this strategy anymore as it won’t increase your chance of winning the fight by much compared to doubling your likely losses… but this seems like it will be the only tactical choice in a lot of cases whereas it would have been a bit more nuanced before. If I was playing Isengard, for instance, previously I would quite likely be fairly happy to charge treebeard with 2 or 3 normal warriors with 4-9 pike supports… even in a normal battle line without the trap. My greater number of attacks with the lower fight value would give me an ok chance of winning the fight against treebeard’s 3 attacks and I have a decent upside benefit of some decent damage output potential or the chance to burn some of treebeard’s might (which I would have to do at some point to defeat him anyway). The downside of losing 2 or 3 warriors compared to 1 is not too bad for this potential upside compared to the ‘feed them one model a turn strategy’ so the choice to attack or avoid was fairly even depending on your situation and how many models you had to spare from other parts of the battle. But now, it simply isn’t worth risking 4-9 quite expensive elite models all being killed on 3’s by treebeard who has an almost 50% chance of winning the fight without using any might and will win the first few fights almost guaranteed by using a point of might or two which would be well worth it to crush so many elite groups from a fairly small model count army. And there is no counter from enemy hero’s due to the heroic strike change and nurfed magic (both of which I like in general but combined with this change makes big monsters pretty insane). So while it is arguably quite a thematic rule… and of course we would expect monsters to be pretty powerful… it seems a bit too much in my opinion. While the ‘attack them with greater numbers and hope for the best’ strategy was often viable from a risk/reward standpoint… it just doesn’t seem viable any more and just a guaranteed fast track to breaking and losing. ‘Feed them one model a turn and crush the rest of the army’ seems like the only reasonable choice now which is a bit one-dimensional and sad. But maybe I’m just a bit overly pessimistic because I just heard about this rule change and haven’t let it sink in for too long? Just seems insanely powerful though and too similar to Sauron’s Unstoppable rule which was pretty much the best damage output potential rule in the game reserved for the most bad-ass character of all (this new monster rule only really has less potential damage output if being charged by an very high number of models where the number of models in base contact is more than the monsters attack value… in most cases it would function the exact same - especially as quite a few would fail terror checks or chose to support to avoid taking a terror check, and monsters can be in much higher model count armies than armies with Sauron giving the opponent less available models to spare to charge the monster anyway). Being able to direct any normal strikes available at supporting units and perhaps having one additional strike at one additional supporting unit would have been a bit more balanced I think. But again… maybe I’m just a bit too shocked to be seeing this fairly right now lol?
Agreed, monsters will definitely be harder to pin down now! Buffs were very well needed, as they weren’t seen very much besides a few hero monsters due to being easily countered and generally inefficient. We will have to see how they do with this big boost!
@@intothewestpodcast Yeah, to be fair, some sort of buff was probably needed… and considering their hurls do not have as high damage output anymore and the ‘feed them one a turn’ strategy is still in play (although have to be mindful of dominant x as well) it might be a decently balanced change still. After all, the previous hurl damage output might not have been quite as high but was still pretty high considering all the prone models were vulnerable to much greater subsequent damage from other fights and crucially was much harder to avoid… while with this buff the monster can only charge 2 or 3 models himself and it is the opposing player who gets to decide whether it is worth the risk to commit spear supports or not (might be worth the risk still for horde armies but not for elite troop armies like elves or Uruk-hai which will still be lower in fight value and often just as easily squished on 3’s at double the cost or more). So overall, could potentially be well balanced still - probably depending on the match up a bit - and will definitely have to wait and see how things go… Thanks for the great vid though and for taking the time to reply to some long messages. Super excited for this new version ☺️
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
As a brand new player, really looking forward to you guys evaluating the updated profiles
We will definitely be doing that! Lots of new edition content incoming!
Do you think Gully moving 6" is a typo?@@intothewestpodcast
@arashh23 yes, but I can see some TOs ruling otherwise for the time being
@@arashh23 fly gives him 12" i believe
@@TomRogueDice They changed the wording of fly to point to the profile's move value, rather than giving everything blanket 12". Fly now gives a blanket 4" foot movement though. So Gully having 6" in profile is a problem, which will hopefully get changed to higher.
The control zone rule must consider movement distance when checking if a charge is impossible. Almost all charges would be possible with unlimited movement and the new rule would be basically useless.
23:48 if youbdon't have enough movement then the charge is impossible! Look at the example picture in the rule book as it clearly shows an example in which thr charging model can move around the back but doesn't choose to.
I disagree with the running out of movement and therefore cant charge as it was "possible". Because if half an inch is too little, than 50 inch is the same and there is likely a way to run all the way around the terrain and charge them on the backside. So if saying you cant charge as your movement was just out, means nothing would ever be impossible unless terrain fully cuts the map in half without interruption. The movement should qualify as it being impossible otherwise RAW youre never charging.
I think with dropping gear when dismounting, it has to match the options a Model can take, not limited to the models that GW made. -> you cann't take a warrior of Rohan with Bow and Shield, but you can take Boromir with Banner & Shield so he doesn't have to drop it.
I’d have to dig out my old books to remember 100% but back in the day nobody could carry a bow and a shield at the same time. Riders of Rohan had a special rule that allowed it while mounted, but when dismounted had to discard one. This is a just basically going back to that I think.
Also in a game I had, Lord Thorne charged an Orc Captain, declared a heroic Challenge, the Captain then accepted the challenge as he was locked in combat anyway. The extra attack and wounding on 4s let me flash, kill the captain, and get my might back with a cheap very basic hero. I'm definitely a big fan of the new challenge.
Useful run through.
Not sure if you misunderstood heroic accuracy: the warriors shooting at cavalry may re roll failed itw rolls. But hitting the rider is still a successful itw roll. Only the hero calling it gets sharpshooter and he gets to pick mount or rider and he does not have to make a itw roll for it. He just hits whatever he targeted per the sharpshooter rule.
Ian seems to have entered his family man arc, just like Krillin after the Namek saga.
Easterling pikes will benefit from the +1 to wound since they can carry shields and are more often in the front. Personally all pikes should get the bonus against cav including supporting. That’s the whole point of a pike wall.
About the debate on whether one could ignore a models control zone if your move isn't enough to charge it: I'd say Ian is right. The distinction Scott is making about it being impossible to charge vs you not having enough move to charge doesn't make sense to me.
In the example we are using, we're talking about spear supports behind a battle line, correct? Who ostensibly have their backs exposed? So theoretically, if I had 60" of movement, I could go around the battle line and charge that model. So it's not that it's impossible to charge, it's that I don't have enough move.
So every case is a case of not having enough movement, unless they're talking about models that are literally impossible to access from any side, which doesn't seem to be the case.
The text in the book mentions being impossible to charge due to the placement of other models around the model who is impossible to charge.
It does not mention because you don't have the move distance to get there, a common situation that has already existed.
This situation is more important for the edges of lines. We know the intent about middle of lines being the reason this was added.
Regardless, it's been placed on FAQ submission list that I organize.
I think you misunderstood the dismounting to Wargear model.
So the example given says you discard gear so it represents a legal dismounted model in this case a warrior of Rohan. A warrior of Rohan can't legally have multiple gear loadouts, so you discard down to one of the options you can select.
With a hero, you can take multiple gear, by your same logic you could never take a foot Boromir with Banner and Shield as there is no official model.
Don't worry guys, I will adjust the tables at NOVA so that you don't have to run across five tables to play with the new deployment setup 😂 -Devin
Hey guys great video! Just wondering if anyone has the page reference for where they talk about sharing stats with azog and the white warg. Thank you!
Thanks!
Pg 75 (first page of Heroes) discussed hero mounts - so this is not just for the white warg anymore.
1:26:04
Reason #46 of why Ian is the best member of into the west
Whats your guys take on the multiple spears supports thing? In friendly games i will still play it as only 1 spear support per model but could be a point of contention in tournaments
I can't see any reasonable TO ruling otherwise. The game has been this way for so long, I doubt even the rules lawyers would be able to pull this one off even if there's an argument going by RAW.
I think it'll be okay!
Ian! Nice Mustache!!
Thanks for the comment, unfortunately it is already gone 😂 until next Movember maybe...
Quick follow up question for Lothlorien banners. Could a galadrhim warrior pass off a banner to a guard of the galadrhim court model if it was pike supporting the banner?
Both units can take 'just' a banner if im not mistaken and have their only weapon options replaced by the banner and both have heavy armour. (unless the new legacy profile says otherwise) :)
Thanks :)
Yes, if the model picking up the banner can purchase a banner as an option they can receive it.
@intothewestpodcast sweeeet
23:40 If a Warrior had 75” move, he could walk all the way around the shield wall to get the spear support. 😂
What are we talking about here guys? The models move distance dictates what IS and what ISN’T possible to charge.
38:35 Once again, are we reviewing the rules or finding the most obscure rules lawyering angles to discuss?
Boromir gets dismounted and has a shield, if my Boromir on foot with banner has a shield, I’m using it. As is.
This discussion dies when you look at Realms of Men. Mounted King’s of Men models with kits, never made.
42:52 I think the social construct falls apart when you lose priority then try to pass Heroic in an attempt to lure your opponent into showing his cards first.
No, you lost priority, you call first. If you don’t, then I can choose not to and we move on. You’ve had your chance.
Great video guys! Good idea bringing Scott on. Wifi is pretty good in Dunland!
Saun's foot Boz is finally the greatest Boz ever.
Let’s goo Scott
I just bought Osgiliath box😅
It’s still great value, even discounting the rules manual!
That Scott guy is super cool. 😉
Why would you not take a drum in mordor?? They have next to no range so that war drum gets your nearly all combat only army to the enemy faster.
Drum is a good option in Mordor for sure!
My community was already playing heroic passing that way anyway.
Heroic passing?
@intothewestpodcast when both players don't declare heroics
Gotcha... less to learn for you guys! However, technically it didn't work that way in the past - you were allowed to change your mind and call even if your opponent passed, it happened frequently in most tournament play that I've attended.
At 59:18 can you guys confirm the monsters getting attacks against supporting units rules…
Do monsters using normal strikes now get one additional strike on every unit supporting a model they kill over and above the number of attacks on their profile?
E.g. Troll with 3 attacks rolls well and uses normal strikes to kill 3 units that were attacking him and therefore it also gets 3 more strikes against each of the spearmen supporting the 3 models he killed for 6 strikes total (and would get 6 additional strikes if there were theoretically two pikemen supporting each of the models he killed for 9 strikes total).
Also, if he only killed two out of three models in base contact with him with his normal three strikes he would still get two additional strikes - one on each of the spearmen he killed (or 4 in the case of pikes).
This seems to be my understanding from how you guys worded it…
But that seems insanely strong though…
It would be strong enough and better balanced in my opinion if they had the ability to strike spear supports if they kill the model in front but only up to the number of attacks on their profile… helping them make full use of their profile power and chew through models faster instead of being tagged by one warrior with a spear support and only risking one model a turn to do so… but potentially doubling or tripling their number of attacks to wound as this implies is WAY overpowered for any random monster to have… it would mean a cave troll having a rule almost as good as Sauron’s Unstoppable rule.
It isn’t a number of bonus strikes, rather each supporting model takes a strike. If you kill a model that’s fighting the monster, each model supporting it takes one strike each. So if a model supported by 2 pikes is killed, both pike supports would take a strike each.
@
Ah yeah, that’s what I meant… probably didn’t word it very well.
Still means it is theoretically possible for any bog standard 3 attack monster to kill 9 models in one turn though (if it kills three models in base contact and each of those three models have two pike supports each which each take one strike and die). Not to mention monsters with more than three attacks being able to kill even more…
Of course killing all 9 is pretty unlikely… but just the possibility is pretty insane and killing 6 (wounding on 3s) would be quite possible in a lot of cases… which is still double the maximum they could kill in one go before.
That is an insanely huge buff for all monsters.
Especially combined with a heroic combat and the changes to heroic strike.
For example, the Balrog would be crazy now with a free heroic combat every turn and potentially almost doubling the number of models he can kill in each fight with this rule change. And a huge number of good hero’s have no chance of heroic striking to a 10 to match him not (not even Gil-galad) and the few hero’s with fight 7 with heroic strike are expensive and can only match him 1/3 of the time now or just burn a might they could have used on the duel role.
But Gwahir, eagles and ents are also insane considering evil heros mostly have lower fight values so very few could match them either.
Thanks for clarifying though!
Damn that is a massive buff for all monsters though in my mind… huge.
@
To be fair, the ‘feed the monster one model a turn while you crush the rest of their army’ strategy can still work… just not much point in using a spear support for this strategy anymore as it won’t increase your chance of winning the fight by much compared to doubling your likely losses… but this seems like it will be the only tactical choice in a lot of cases whereas it would have been a bit more nuanced before.
If I was playing Isengard, for instance, previously I would quite likely be fairly happy to charge treebeard with 2 or 3 normal warriors with 4-9 pike supports… even in a normal battle line without the trap. My greater number of attacks with the lower fight value would give me an ok chance of winning the fight against treebeard’s 3 attacks and I have a decent upside benefit of some decent damage output potential or the chance to burn some of treebeard’s might (which I would have to do at some point to defeat him anyway). The downside of losing 2 or 3 warriors compared to 1 is not too bad for this potential upside compared to the ‘feed them one model a turn strategy’ so the choice to attack or avoid was fairly even depending on your situation and how many models you had to spare from other parts of the battle.
But now, it simply isn’t worth risking 4-9 quite expensive elite models all being killed on 3’s by treebeard who has an almost 50% chance of winning the fight without using any might and will win the first few fights almost guaranteed by using a point of might or two which would be well worth it to crush so many elite groups from a fairly small model count army. And there is no counter from enemy hero’s due to the heroic strike change and nurfed magic (both of which I like in general but combined with this change makes big monsters pretty insane).
So while it is arguably quite a thematic rule… and of course we would expect monsters to be pretty powerful… it seems a bit too much in my opinion.
While the ‘attack them with greater numbers and hope for the best’ strategy was often viable from a risk/reward standpoint… it just doesn’t seem viable any more and just a guaranteed fast track to breaking and losing.
‘Feed them one model a turn and crush the rest of the army’ seems like the only reasonable choice now which is a bit one-dimensional and sad.
But maybe I’m just a bit overly pessimistic because I just heard about this rule change and haven’t let it sink in for too long?
Just seems insanely powerful though and too similar to Sauron’s Unstoppable rule which was pretty much the best damage output potential rule in the game reserved for the most bad-ass character of all (this new monster rule only really has less potential damage output if being charged by an very high number of models where the number of models in base contact is more than the monsters attack value… in most cases it would function the exact same - especially as quite a few would fail terror checks or chose to support to avoid taking a terror check, and monsters can be in much higher model count armies than armies with Sauron giving the opponent less available models to spare to charge the monster anyway).
Being able to direct any normal strikes available at supporting units and perhaps having one additional strike at one additional supporting unit would have been a bit more balanced I think.
But again… maybe I’m just a bit too shocked to be seeing this fairly right now lol?
Agreed, monsters will definitely be harder to pin down now! Buffs were very well needed, as they weren’t seen very much besides a few hero monsters due to being easily countered and generally inefficient. We will have to see how they do with this big boost!
@@intothewestpodcast
Yeah, to be fair, some sort of buff was probably needed… and considering their hurls do not have as high damage output anymore and the ‘feed them one a turn’ strategy is still in play (although have to be mindful of dominant x as well) it might be a decently balanced change still.
After all, the previous hurl damage output might not have been quite as high but was still pretty high considering all the prone models were vulnerable to much greater subsequent damage from other fights and crucially was much harder to avoid… while with this buff the monster can only charge 2 or 3 models himself and it is the opposing player who gets to decide whether it is worth the risk to commit spear supports or not (might be worth the risk still for horde armies but not for elite troop armies like elves or Uruk-hai which will still be lower in fight value and often just as easily squished on 3’s at double the cost or more).
So overall, could potentially be well balanced still - probably depending on the match up a bit - and will definitely have to wait and see how things go…
Thanks for the great vid though and for taking the time to reply to some long messages. Super excited for this new version ☺️
Great video, id only the monetization wouldn't kick in every 5 min making it unwatchable
Sorry to hear that
Grab an ad blocker buddy. Wasn't many ads for me, might have aware on your device. My daughter had similar
Yooooooooo
Yo what's up
Hard pass, another in the long line of shameless money grabs from GW
Punchy you aren’t joining us in the new edition?!