@@JezuesChavez Do you not know the difference between childish and childlike? And theLord is the God of logic and reason. That's why the gospels and epistles are full of reasons to believe.
Don't be childish. Child-like faith RECEIVES everything as a gift, by grace, like children do. Children (especially babies) don't earn anything. They are nursed as a gift, swaddled as a gift, fed as a gift, housed as a gift, loved as a gift. So are we. In this way also we receive salvation, the gift of God, not through our work, but through the work of another Jesus. Children live by the work of another; so do we. Grow up, and argue with the real Christianity, if you will, not a straw man. Just as the gospel of John, an eyewitness of these things, says, "These things are written [i.e. reasons] that you may believe."
Brandon reminds me of this quote from CS Lewis: "We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”
Yes. It's like the question "who made God?" You expect that from kids...or from adults who don't love God because they don't know Him. Their minds are darkened. I like this quote from CS Lewis : "We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”
Man who has never experienced infinity is convinced there is no good infinite experience to be had. I get the monotony idea, but he disregards the layering/expansion idea. If you can grow and learn, you will experience the wonder and beauty of the creation and the Creator at ever greater levels. It’s not just about adding hobbies.
A comedian once said "I have a friend who just ran his first marathon. It took him four hours. I don't even want to do something that feels GOOD for four hours!" Sure, we'll be able to infinitely learn new stuff. But at some point the basic act of learning new stuff will grow tired and boring. And once you hit that point, you still have all of eternity ahead of you.
@@edwardkeeter762. Not at all. Your *capacity* to enjoy learning will continually expand. Sin together with a fallen imagination is incapable of perceiving such an existence.
@@edwardkeeter762You’re looking at it from the point of view of someone who is stuck in an imperfect world. Flatlander, basically. It’s not going to be some Sisyphean eternity. If it will be so bad being in eternal joy, and you want to just end it all, why do all people who think like that just cut to the chase (note I am not saying you should!) and actually end it all? You admit there is suffering in this world. There is no eternal joy to look forward to. So why do people go on if they don’t think there’s any real purpose to it?
He makes the assumption that boredom and losing interest is possible in the first place. I lean toward the idea that whatever we do in heaven would be like some hour of your life that was extremely ecstatic and joyful here, but could continue forever with no diminishing returns. Many people have had that just socializing with new friends, and in heaven there would be billions of people to experience things with, and then start again if necessary.
"The sun rises every morning. I do not rise every morning; but the variation is not due to my activity, but to my inaction. Now, to put the matter in a popular phrase, it might be true that the sun rises regularly because he never gets tired of rising. His routine might be due, not to a lifelessness, but to a rush of life. The thing I mean can be seen, for instance, in children, when they find some game or joke that the specially enjoy. A child kicks his legs rhythmically through excess, not absence, of life. Because children have abounding vitality, they are in spirit fierce and free, therefore they want things repeated and unchanged. They always say "Do it afain", and the grown-up person does it again until he is nearly dead. For grown up people are not strong enough to exult in monotony. But God is strong enough to exult in monotony. It is possible that God says every morning, "Do it again" to the sun; and every evening, "Do it again" to the moon." GK Chesterton
I think Mindshift has a point that if we're to find heaven truly enjoyable, something fundamental about our *human* nature must be changed after we die. I don't think Gavin's argument is very strong that we can someone stay our same human selves and enjoy an eternal afterlife.
That's so funny I just finished typing my own comment that was basically the same thing - why shouldn't we think that our inability to enjoy things for long is a defect that will be cured in heaven?
Good news! The heavens and earth are being renewed right now! The kingdom of heaven has come down to earth, and Christ is reigning with His saints today! Of course, there's still a lot of work that needs to be done, but so much progress has already been made, so let's do our part and proclaim that the war is already won, but that there are still battles ahead, and the King sits on His throne until all enemies are made His footstool.
Gavin, I'm an older brother of young siblings, and when I hear the idea that joy in heaven is both "full" and "growing," I think about my relationship with my sister who's 11 years younger than me. I remember when she was born, that was absolutely a full joy! But the joy in knowing her has only grown as she is becoming an adult and my friend. I'm sure parents can relate to this in an even closer way. This seems to me to be a good metaphor for that paradox of joy!
1 Corinthians 2:9 ESV "But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him” Nuff said.
I can understand where you are coming from. For a long time I thought of God as this almighty judge just waiting to bring the hammer down on me if I stepped out of line. Here is the thing though. God wants a relationship with you. Not out of fear but one built on love and trust. Pray that you will find a love for Him like never before and that you will grow closer to Him and see Him like a Father and not a tyrant. The only way you can do that is to spend time in the Word and keep in prayer. Might not be a bad idea to go and talk to your preacher as well!
“Eternity is never going to be a good thing” “The further down the road you go with the concept of infinity, you realize there’s no good version of it”. “Nothing can go on forever and be a good thing” God is goodness itself. Like, let that sink in. When we are united to Christ, and we will experience the beatific vision, we will be united to Truth, Goodness, and Beauty itself. So yeah, Heaven is a good thing, because it’s being in the presence of “goodness” itself.
I can't fully express my gratitude for this video. I saw Brandon's video a few months ago while I was in a circumstance of deep study but also isolation and didn't have a great rebuttal for most of his points. I've struggled with the concept of eternity for most of my life, always had some severe anxiety over it that came and went. I was hit with panic attacks daily after finding Brandon's video and really had to pull myself free of that isolated circumstance because I couldn't handle that tension alone. The concept of infinity and eternity has always been a roadblock between me and thinking deeply about God and studying scripture because I'm always drawn back to it. It reared its ugly head again due to a recent authorial undertaking that has left me with more than a few sleepless nights. I was actually praying in the wee hours of this morning about this very issue, asking for some kind of peace. And here this video comes across my feed... That imagery of the infinite chasm, and the truth of infinite happiness from an infinite source, absolutely brilliant. You have been an answer to prayer. Thank for all that you do. And Praise God! Infinite fount of every blessing!
The reason we struggle with the concept of eternity is because happiness down here fades away. I realize as a child the toy that brings me joy one day will slowly end up in bring emptiness a few days later. I read a gamer post that Breath of the Wild was their favorite game and wish they could unlearn it and play it again new. Ecclesiastes 1:2-3 " Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh UNDER THE SUN?" Time is our enemy in this life even slowly taking our love ones. If we had to live in our sinful state for eternity it would be hell.
The concern of looking foward to Heaven ruining our enjoyment of Earth is like being concerned that looking foward to marriage will ruin courtship. Memories of all the shared smiles and beauties between couples only become all the sweeter in the light of their ultimate unification; I don't think we should loose track of this beautiful reality when we consider the Biblical imagery of Heaven being ushered in by a marriage feast. Thank you, Dr. Ortlund! These concerns are certainly pressing things to address in our church society today.
@@edwardkeeter762 My friend, I believe you are misunderstanding my point. Heaven is not literally marriage, but our journey from Earth to Heaven has a lot in common with the journey from courtship to marriage.
@edwardkeeter762 human marriage is a symbol and precursor to the joys of heaven and our relationship with our creator in many ways. You definitely didn't understand OP or the cosmic symbolism laid out all through the scriptures.
Haha, that is what I thought, too. Gavin is right, though, that we Christians have let that sort of depiction be what people think of with heaven from a pop culture perspective, and even what has been taught from the pulpit. Side note, I found the Good Place a really great show in general, but also in the way that it gives us a perspective into what a generalized, secular, western culture thinks about the afterlife and general religion and philosophy. There were so many parts in the later seasons where they got so close to the truth of reality but generally missed how Jesus and His sacrifice could solve those issues. There is a part where they almost realize that we all deserve the bad place, but they don't quite get there.
Pray for him! Hearing him talk about how heaven will be boring and that God is a tyrant is so sad. How does endlessly praising our Lord forever not sound amazing?
I wrote up a list of things that are less appealing to me than endlessly praising God for all eternity. If you see something lying around that looks like a blank sheet of notebook paper, that would be my list.
@@edwardkeeter762 I, however, wrote an algorithm for listing everything MORE appealing than that. If you find it, give it back, because it will win me a Nobel for the Theory of Everything
I scrolled to find this exact comment. When Christ is your true treasure, and glorifying Him is your true desire, then an eternity of doing that (in whatever ways we will in heaven) sounds glorious.
Hi Gavin, I'm agnostic but I think "heaven would be boring" has to be one of the worst arguments against theism! I really don't understand Mindshift's assertion that everybody would get bored. It's trivially easy to imagine an enjoyable state of existence that isn't constantly full of activity. For example, there are times I've sat quietly in a forest for long periods, not thinking about anything in particular but just being contemplative and relaxed, I wasn't bored at all. I don't think heaven is real, but in theory it sounds nicer than not existing!
I thought about something similar. I’m in the medical field and have seen patients take medications that give them completely euphoria, peace, and contentment. They weren’t learning in that time, they weren’t playing a game, enjoying a hobby, or conversing with friends or family. It was just merely existing and resting in a state of bliss. If mere man made medications can enact this state, imagine how much more powerfully we could experience that, for all eternity, because of the God of the universe?
Beautiful video. I remember a particular day when I was a child, about 6 or 7, playing with my cousins at our family's cottage by the lake. Splashing in the water, playing made-up games, sharing our thoughts and opinions. At the end of the day, I felt a strange, wistful sadness that it was over. But somehow I also had the thought that I would get to live that day over again someday in heaven. I'm not sure where that idea came from, but I'd like to believe God was speaking to my heart. I hope I make it there, and I hope to meet you, Gavin, and your viewers in that happy place God has made for us!
Yes! Before I knew about time and clocks as a child, the days just ran one into another with discovery and play; I think there will be so much to do without worry of any kind. Simple, yes, but why not?
I remember preparing for a bodybuilding competition while detoxing from heroin. Sleep was non existent, standing up was a chore, and every movement felt like utterly hopeless agony. Let alone going to the gym! Not to mention the bonus of the starvation diet. I can only hope I'm permitted to relive that arduous journey in the Hereafter
I grew up atheist - that was/is pretty much my take on it. I didn't get interested in Christianity for salvation, but because my life MUCH better after simply attending church one Sunday with a friend. Thank you for your podcasts, Gavin. They have been very helpful to my understanding.
Losing my thoughts in Heaven has always been an uncomfortable thought. That you take the opposite view here and provide evidence to that effect is calming
Like most atheists and deconstructionist, this gentleman takes a pile of unknowns and just goes “cup half empty“ on everything. It’s boring, juvenile, and dripping with his own underlying anger and pride. There is only one verse that matters in this discussion: “No eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the human heart conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”. Try going cup half empty with that.
It pains me that many are resistant to the idea of Heaven because they have the wrong idea of Heaven. The doctrine of Heaven as presented by Brandon here is how I thought of Heaven... when I was 10 years old. But through rational thought and the guidance of the Spirit, it's become clear to me that nothing could be better than eternity in Heaven. I often struggle with seeing people with incredible skills and thinking "If only I had the time to learn that." In Heaven, I will have the time, but upon the completion of my sanctification, I won't struggle with that same envy either; I will be able to better appreciate the skills of others without selfish thinking. What a wonderful thing to consider!
@@edwardkeeter762 Was it? Arguments like "I'll be bored after an infinite amount of time" fall flat in my eyes and just comes across as unimaginative. The whole idea of Heaven is being in the presence of the infinite God. Surely, an infinite God would be able to provide infinity to explore so that boredom wouldn't be a problem, right?
Are we talking about Heaven as it is or the New Heaven and New Earth following the Ressurection? These are two very different things. If nothing else, the latter will certainly be physical, if a different kind of physical existence than we are familiar with. The former? I'm not sure. I suspect many conflate the two under the single word "Heaven" without realizing what they're doing.
I think one of the major factors affecting the difference between Gavin and Brandon’s reactions is that Gavin has a love for God. Think about marriage as an example. Imagine being locked into a lifelong relationship with someone you distain, with someone you think is a narcissist. It may be one of the most dreadful fates you can imagine. Now, imagine being locked into a lifelong relationship with someone you truly love, someone you admire greatly (some may not have to imagine). Isn’t it one of the most beautiful things we are given on this earth? The difference is love.
I get what you're saying, but I think you're missing the point Mindshift is making: If we really do imagine the actual implications of a state where we do nothing but worship God, is that really a desirable destiny, or just a lofty ideal that we really haven't considered seriously? To put it another way, let's really consider the example you gave of being "locked" into an intimate relationship where all you did was embrace that person. Imagine it. If that was all you did, it would soon go from bliss to intolerable. So if something isn't realistic in our human lives, on what basis are we to assume it's desirable after death?
@@joeoleary9010 I guess for me being nearer to God for eternity seems wonderful, being able to more fully comprehend how he is gloried in all that transpired on earth. It’s like it is with anyone we love, seeing them receive the recognition they deserve brings immense joy to our hearts. As long as God’s glory doesn’t fade, my joy will never fade. I get the practical concerns that Brandon has (though I think the ones highlighted in this video are mostly based on misunderstanding). But those concerns fade away compared with the joy of being with my Creator and Savior. I’m not trying to sound “holier than thou” but this is my genuine take on the subject.
How much must you hate God to go so far as to even dislike the idea of Heaven? Isn't that what deep down every human desires? A perfect world with complete peace and no more death and suffering?
A common problem among a lot of these critiques of Heaven is they seem to be based on the premise that we will be exactly the same as we are now and think exactly the same as we do now, but in a different location (even the specific objection that was mentioned that automatically assumed that God changing us in any way is bad). I know this isn't a perfect analogy, but it seems like saying that putting your muddy clothes in the dryer won't clean them so you shouldn't bother trying to clean them while completely ignoring the fact that they go in the washing machine first.
If heaven is soooo boring, what about the lake of fire?, i bet none of us would like to choose that place for sure... Whatever heaven is like, i want to be there instead of hell.
This is a very timely reminder - so much of what the world, both Christian and secular, conceives of as "heaven" is basically just a regurgitation of renaissance art. And so many of the objections to heaven seem devastating until you consider them from a perspective that's larger than what the secular world trains people in by default. To take one example, Mindshift positively insisted that heaven would be horrible simply because we would run out of things to do eventually, because we can only do something a certain number of times before we get bored of it, but he never considered that this itself might be one of the defects within us that will be cured in heaven. Just as God can receive glory and perhaps even enjoyment from watching the sun rise every day, and then say "do it again!" the next morning, why shouldn't we expect that a part of heaven will be the ability to truly enjoy an activity without limit?
Experiencing Him is something that is never enough. Constantly filling us. Just being in His presence forever is more than enough. If I could worship Him on my face forever that would be amazing honestly. But if you’ve never met His presence this all seems distant and foreign.
After many years of eastern mysticism and huge doses of hallucinogenic drugs, I reached the tangible feeling of my immortal soul. Now this may off course be only a subjective thing but it eventually got me to that exact same place where this man seems to be : I will eventually get bored of living in infinity and wish to be annihilated. The only thing that prevented me from commiting suicide is the thought: live for others. A couple of weeks of this sprouted many other parralel thoughts. Eventually, I realised that "my thoughts" keeping me alive were the teachings of Jesus 😅. I asked God for help and boy did he answer ! Praise God I'm alive and in Christ and life is already sooooo much better and beautiful ! It's hard to see heaven as a good thing when we are so focused on ourselves. I pray that this man continues in his contemplation and makes the discovery that so many made before us: Jesus is LORD and boy does He love you !
"....I don't think I can be wrong about." The pride in thinking you can't be wrong about your conceptualization of heaven. Really sad for these atheists
@@pamphilus3652 If you're upset that someone is commending and appreciating another individual for their work in the body of Christ, I'd suggest you find love. Seems to me you're an Orthodox or Roman catholic. Who's done hero worship than you guys??
Boredom is a deficiency in the person, not the circumstances. Glorification will make us constitutionally unable to be bored, because it will enable us to see the truth, goodness, and beauty of God's creation with such clarity we could never become bored with it.
The other thing about believing in heaven is that it gives you hope in difficult times in a way that simply trying to make the best of this life doesn’t. I heard a story of missionaries who lost their infant son, and the character of hope they displayed afterward was enough to convince many people they were evangelizing to convert, because nobody had ever seen that kind of hope before.
I once had a close friend betray me in a significant way. It was brutally heartbreaking. But on the very day he had confessed this betrayal, as I prayed about it, I broke down in tears. To my surprise, these were not tears of sadness but tears of joy as I meditated on the depth of Christ's forgiveness and love for me. When I remember that moment of grief and sadness, it does not affect me with suffering. It's completely the opposite. It produces joy! This is the freedom that Christ gives us. It is incomprehensible. He turns grief and sorrow to joy without removing the reality of the suffering that was. How could heaven be weird or boring when we will live in the presence of such a God? The heart that does not love Christ would not love heaven.
Totally agree; the symbolism should not be taken literally, but how else can we describe Heaven? I suspect that trying to explain Heaven to us is as difficult a task as trying to describe this world to an unborn child.
You articulated your argument well, Gavin but regardless, the little delights I get from being in Gods presence here on earth is enough for me and to think there’s more, is heaven indeed. It makes sense that those who are separated from God wails and gnash their teeth because they don’t know or love God.
Even highly pious people aren't thinking about God 24/7. There are 1000 other things that cross their mental landscape, and yet they're not wailing and gnashing their teeth. There are also lots of people who go days, weeks or their entire lives without thinking of God, yet they're not wailing and gnashing either. Actually, wailing and crashing is said in Matthew to be the fate of those who are thrown into h/ell as a consequence for their having not been pious enough in their earthly life.
I'm sure Brandon is a very smart guy, but this is a classic illustration of how the World percieves the Cross and what it stands for as utter foolishness, He just totally doesn't get it, but while I'm not always on board with CS Lewis's theology, these sort of statements do indeed illustrtate what Lewis was convinced of; that the doors of Hell are indeed locked from the inside.
Brandon's overall point may be very smart or not so smart, but it's still a very valid point: If all you know of the joys of living is life on earth with all its variety of activities and relationships and sensual pleasure and entertainments, then why are you so sure that a life *without* all those human things for all eternity is desirable? I wish people here would at least acknowledge that Brandon is posing a valid question, rather than dismissing him as a lost sinner.
@@joeoleary9010 Theologian A. A. Hodge wrote, Heaven, as the eternal home of the divine Man and of all the redeemed members of the human race, must necessarily be thoroughly human in its structure, conditions, and activities. Its joys and its occupations must all be rational, moral, emotional, voluntary, and active. There must be the exercise of all faculties, the gratification of all tastes, the development of all talent capacities, the realization of all ideals. The reason, the intellectual curiosity, the imagination, the aesthetic instincts, the holy affections, the social affinities, the inexhaustible resources of strength and power native to the human soul, must all find in heaven exercise and satisfaction.
I agree with Brandon - I would not want to live in heaven designed by him. But I desperately want to live in the Heaven created by God, in all His dimensions of which we cannot even conceive. I have some things to worry about- the inadequacy of the New Heaven and the New Earth is not one of them.
For a skeptic, I would bring up a non-religious example: Star Trek. This is a sci-fi universe imagining an ideal future where humanity reaches the point of “post-scarcity”. This does *not* mean a stagnant existence. In fact we see this frees humanity to explore and discover the universe. I would say this is similar to what Christians believe about heaven.
This was an amazing response. I found myself pausing before your answers, seeing if I could come up with something to respond with, and I found that our answers often matched perfectly (though you were far less verbose 😂). Great video!
I am Bible college student currently, this has been a very eye opening topic as I haven’t understood much on the doctrine of heaven. Very encouraging stuff Gavin! Thank you!
Beautiful. The clarity and organization of the video is incredibly helpful. Also, I want to encourage you that your "preacher" mode in your videos does not detract from the experience. It is you living out your purpose on the channel, "Gospel assurance through theological depth". We get to see your heart rejoice in these beautiful truths. As a young pastor, I am blessed by watching your videos (on some of my other email accounts) and am so encouraged by you. Thank you.
I was caught by this title as this actually came in our lifegroup meeting several years ago as we were studying Revelation. One person said (paraphrased), "I think I would get bored in heaven just singing praises forever". While this was being discussed, and being an avid deer hunter I pictured the deer I've watched over the years and asked the person, "Do you think a deer is ever bored? My response was, "Just as a deer never gets bored, we won't be bored...Why? Because we'll be doing what we are created to do...While we're doing exactly what we're created to do we cannot be bored"!
I imagine that learning in heaven will involve all the stimulation and joy of learning without the frustration that comes with not getting it on the first try. I suspect we also might not feel the urgency to get things right on the first time since our time will no longer be limited in that place.
Wonderful video. Really sad for Brandon, though. No sense of the infinite goodness of God, or of our capacity for interest and delight being able to expand and grow. No sense even of the possibility of our pain and guilt being redeemed and turned to glory. I can sure see how such a sad and shriveled view of the world would make it hard to imagine heaven.
When I walk closely with God, I can feel a joy of knowing him and knowing I am saved by his grace. I can't imagine how wonderful that will feel actually standing in his presence!
Mind shift is really hard to be charitable with for me. The guy has been so hurt and it so angry with God that he's just looking for any kind of "ammunition" to hurl. Really painful to listen to.
Brandon’s assessment is so sad. He can’t envision that whatever Heaven is like, it’s going to be glorious because we will be continually in the presence of God. And that will be enough. I’m going to be praying for Brandon.
"The saints will reign with Christ for a thousand years" That's how heaven is described in Revelation. Whatever that means, it doesn't sound boring at all. And after these thousand years we live in the new heavens and new earth, basically a glorified version of the world we live in.
I do agree that churches often neglect teaching a robust doctrine of heaven, and I have met people who are terrified that it's going to be an eternal church service. Personally, I think that it's impossible for us to understand heaven right now, as our minds are conditioned to think in terms of limitations...limitations of time, resources, energy, etc (in addition we usually have a negative attitude towards these limits). Heaven probably won't have limitations! Or negative attitudes! And that's very hard for our brains to conceptualize. Also still water gets gross because of the things in it changing, so it's not like it's a totally static system.
I once asked my mum if I would remember my previous life in heaven, as I have misery in my past. We came to an interesting conclusion. Nostalgia. When we remember a good holiday, we don’t dwell much on the old parts. Sometimes we even forget them. I think when we go to heaven, the pain of our bad memories will fade away. We may remember things that went wrong, but the memory will no longer hurt. We will look back with nostalgia.
2 minutes in and I already have to chuckle at his quibbles with the word gold. In order to communicate to our human sensibilities we have to use imagery from our earthly life. Will it be literal gold? We don’t know. But what we do know is that gold is of high value and a sign of opulence, plenty, and wealth and so we can see the streets of heaven as having those characteristics.
Gavin you are wonderful, I thank God for you and your ministry, and thank you for edifying fellow Christians. I for sure need to buy some, if not all of your books. It's on the list!
This is wonderful and very helpful. I too have thought that heaven would be one very long church services. Of course, no offering because the streets are paved with gold…who will need money in heaven? Of course if there is a sermon to be preached Jesus would do that…but then I wondered…what else? Would another service start right after the first one ended? Wouldn’t that get old after a while?
Hi Dr. Ortlund! Great video, thanks for sharing. Just FYI the link in your video description for the Easter video is actually a link to the heaven video. I love thinking about heaven and how AWESOME its going to be. PS - I grew up in an EFCA church (still go there) so it was fun to see you joined one. I also have had several friends go to TEDS so that was a cool connection too.
Adam and Eve walked with the Lord in the cool of the morning. The Lord also gave them the whole world to enjoy, and much more, to be in relationship with Him forever. Doesn't sound like harp playing on clouds. The Lord should be enough. I don't think Brandon is being honest, I think he's trying to obfuscate to discourage people from following Christ.
It would be great to engage with many of his other videos because they all follow the same pattern and being easy to pick appart, they make for great expositions of the truth of the christian faith and bring good clarification to misunderstandings, caricatures or (theo-)logical errors.
Even if heaven was eternally praising God with all the saints, the sheer fact that there is full satisfaction in the presence of the Lord makes that marvelous. To be with God in perfect harmony, how could we not be satisfied. If you finished everything you ever wanted to do and didnt know what else to do, you could sit at the feet of Christ for eternity and be fully content. That is heaven. The flesh may not like it, but oh how the Christian longs for it. To lay on the Savior's chest is heaven, to be with Him perfect forever would be heaven even if we didn't have anything else to do. Full satisfaction for eternity. I can not even process in my finite mind. Amazing. And yet on top of that, I do agree that the new creation seems to be so much more. Wow.
Love this, Gavin! I look forward to future content themed to heaven. I think one concept which I've been unclear on regarding heaven has to do with the new heavens and the new earth. I understand the language of "heaven will come to earth" and that earth would be renewed, but it often comes across as if whatever "current" heaven exists would fade away. It almost sounds like we would experience a second death. In thinking through this, I've come to emphasize God's eternal nature and how we are to join him after this life. That isn't a thing that goes away, but something that in our perspective might increase, and we would come more fully into knowing eternity as earth is restored. However, I think the thought of a new earth with new bodies would infer that when we die, we join God in eternity - not in a space where we have bodies.
I had a recurring "nightmare" earlier in my life that was very much like Brandon's concept of Heaven. I was in a huge spherical space, like a giant, perfectly spherical cave the size of a city or larger. The outer wall was smooth and pure white, and all along the outer wall billions and billions of people were sat in little chairs, looking inwards towards the middle of the sphere where there was a light that I perceived to be "God," and everyone was just singing and praying towards it. The nightmare was so bad because, despite the size of the space, I felt extremely claustrophobic in it. I felt trapped, like I couldn't get out, couldn't breathe, couldn't distract my mind with anything other than looking at the light, and knowing it would be forever without end. This was a long time ago, when I was young, and I'm long past it. I realized that no God who made the world and declared it Good would be happy with such a stifling, boring hole. No God who promised Heaven would deliver something so terrifying to creatures that he made to be in terror of it, and call it fulfillment. Whatever is in store for us is beyond our imagining, because we can't imagine anything as Good as the reality.
If I could compile my favorite teachings on heaven, it would be 1. The physicality of the EO heaven. 2. The beatific vision of Thomas Aquinas. 3. The catholic heaven from the Simpsons.
Perhaps the Mandelbrot Set provides a look into the infinite possibilities of the New Heaven and New Earth. Every step forward offers an undiscovered beauty of His creation.
Brandon commits a really obvious mathematical blunder in his video. He claims that if you live forever then you will do everything an infinite number of times. This is clearly false. It's like saying "If you start counting the natural numbers and never stop, then you will count each number an infinite number of times". And clearly, you won't. You would never even finish counting all of the natural numbers once. What he also fails to realise is that seasons of life keep things fresh and interesting. Sure, if you listened to the same song on repeat day in and day out it would get boring and become painful to listen to. But if you listen to the song occasionally, and listen to many other songs in between, then it keeps the songs fresh and enjoyable. Lastly, if you have ever truly loved someone then you would never want to be apart from them. I find it shocking that Brandon hates the idea of being with his loved ones forever, and quite frankly, I think it reveals that he has never truly loved anyone. Love does not get boring or old. Love endures forever and only gets better with time. I hope one day Brandon actually learns what it means to love someone.
You have such excellence and generosity, toward errors and corrections through the early years of doctrine development or clarity. Yet, ? don't we all need just a bit of "bashing" once in a while. I would say our doctrines on geological floods, and evolution are relatively young, rather insignificant, and may be influenced by "popular academia". Love you and your work so much. Do this theology more!
Your response in wonderful. I deeply appreciate how gracious you are, yet dare I suggest that your handling of his video is (not too "gracious" in the true sense of grace from God, but) too gentle? He is not hernestly inquiring about these things, like either an unbeliever with misconceptions looking for clarification or a dear brother with misapprehensions seeking better understanding. He is making an insidious, lying, damnable attack on the truth and the goodness of our God, trying to turn believers away from their hope. If someone brought me his objections as concerns, I hope I would be all patience and gladness to dispell their fears. He is attacking the faith. I will allow that he is not deliberately lying, but he is using misapprehensions based on pervasive shallowness and deficient theology (and philosophy, and mathematics...) If he was interested, he easily could have found Christian resources (such as you mentioned) addressing many of these concerns. He is not interested, as evidenced by the fact that he did not make a video inquiring but attacking. He does raise a legitimate point about the eternity of the new creation. By the "problem" of very large numbers with the pigeonhole principle, eventually it will be genuinely impossible to do anything "new" (e.g. every possible sequence of bodily and mental states in every possible location with every possible combination of other persons will be exhausted (every possible chess game played, every possible book up to a million pages written and read, every mathematical proof of similar length discovered, every song a thousand hours long composed and played a million times etc.)) HOWEVER, you pointed to the correct resolution to this problem - the ultimate and eternal glory of the new creation is the infinite God Himself. Our God is life Himself, joy Himself, pleasure Himself (not "itself"), ultimately, fundamentally personal, and He has made us for Himself. In all the eternity of days the day will never come when we say, "I do not want anymore." Each day will be the best. This is what we were made for. This is what we were saved for. Union and communion with our God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. "Eschatology preceeds soreriology." Thanks for this and many other videos, brother.
I agree, singing forever does sound boring. But so much better than hell. I hope I get to hang out with my family. friends, and meet the people of the Bible. Plus, we get to see Jesus!
I have one question: if the heaven will be so great, why couldn't God do this at the beginning? What was earth for in the first place? I feel like this life is some kind of test, some zoo we live in didn't even want to be in. If heaven is so great what was the point of postponing it?
The gold part is also a good example of the issue with the purely relativistic view of art. Gold isn't only beautiful and worthy due to rarity (entirely socially dictated and circumstantial). Certain things are beautiful across populations and across time. The objective/truth basis for art flips his argument completely on that. One could even go as far as to argue gold is beautiful to us on earth, because it's a glimpse of heaven, and our desires aren't totally independent from God's influence. His arguments make sense when freedom over obedience and relativism are assumed. But they breakdown when those are deconstructed.
“If they cannot understand books written for grown-ups, they should not talk about them.” Ouch
Brutal 😂 hahah
One of my all time favorite C.S. Lewis quotes 😂 so savage
Except jesus wants childish faith. believe without reason. - its a scam
@@JezuesChavez Do you not know the difference between childish and childlike? And theLord is the God of logic and reason. That's why the gospels and epistles are full of reasons to believe.
Don't be childish. Child-like faith RECEIVES everything as a gift, by grace, like children do. Children (especially babies) don't earn anything. They are nursed as a gift, swaddled as a gift, fed as a gift, housed as a gift, loved as a gift. So are we. In this way also we receive salvation, the gift of God, not through our work, but through the work of another Jesus. Children live by the work of another; so do we. Grow up, and argue with the real Christianity, if you will, not a straw man. Just as the gospel of John, an eyewitness of these things, says, "These things are written [i.e. reasons] that you may believe."
Brandon reminds me of this quote from CS Lewis:
"We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”
I shared this guy's concerns - back when I was in middle school. I'm a bit surprised to see an adult thinking this way.
You are? The Bible doesn't talk much about what Heaven is actually like. The only thing you and I can do is speculate.
Yes. It's like the question "who made God?" You expect that from kids...or from adults who don't love God because they don't know Him. Their minds are darkened.
I like this quote from CS Lewis :
"We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”
Man who has never experienced infinity is convinced there is no good infinite experience to be had. I get the monotony idea, but he disregards the layering/expansion idea. If you can grow and learn, you will experience the wonder and beauty of the creation and the Creator at ever greater levels. It’s not just about adding hobbies.
The hedonic treadmill is a problem here; not so in the new world.
A comedian once said "I have a friend who just ran his first marathon. It took him four hours. I don't even want to do something that feels GOOD for four hours!" Sure, we'll be able to infinitely learn new stuff. But at some point the basic act of learning new stuff will grow tired and boring. And once you hit that point, you still have all of eternity ahead of you.
@@edwardkeeter762. Not at all. Your *capacity* to enjoy learning will continually expand. Sin together with a fallen imagination is incapable of perceiving such an existence.
Yes, Brandon seems to have bought into the theology of Mr Smith from the Matrix. Humans need misery to keep them alive. Really?
@@edwardkeeter762You’re looking at it from the point of view of someone who is stuck in an imperfect world. Flatlander, basically.
It’s not going to be some Sisyphean eternity.
If it will be so bad being in eternal joy, and you want to just end it all, why do all people who think like that just cut to the chase (note I am not saying you should!) and actually end it all? You admit there is suffering in this world. There is no eternal joy to look forward to. So why do people go on if they don’t think there’s any real purpose to it?
He makes the assumption that boredom and losing interest is possible in the first place. I lean toward the idea that whatever we do in heaven would be like some hour of your life that was extremely ecstatic and joyful here, but could continue forever with no diminishing returns. Many people have had that just socializing with new friends, and in heaven there would be billions of people to experience things with, and then start again if necessary.
"The sun rises every morning. I do not rise every morning; but the variation is not due to my activity, but to my inaction. Now, to put the matter in a popular phrase, it might be true that the sun rises regularly because he never gets tired of rising. His routine might be due, not to a lifelessness, but to a rush of life. The thing I mean can be seen, for instance, in children, when they find some game or joke that the specially enjoy. A child kicks his legs rhythmically through excess, not absence, of life. Because children have abounding vitality, they are in spirit fierce and free, therefore they want things repeated and unchanged. They always say "Do it afain", and the grown-up person does it again until he is nearly dead. For grown up people are not strong enough to exult in monotony. But God is strong enough to exult in monotony. It is possible that God says every morning, "Do it again" to the sun; and every evening, "Do it again" to the moon."
GK Chesterton
Using physical concepts to describe spiritual realities is risky at best.
@@qazyman True, but if we can experience ectasy, joy, fun, excitment here on earth, how much more in heaven which is removed from sin and selfishness
I think Mindshift has a point that if we're to find heaven truly enjoyable, something fundamental about our *human* nature must be changed after we die. I don't think Gavin's argument is very strong that we can someone stay our same human selves and enjoy an eternal afterlife.
That's so funny I just finished typing my own comment that was basically the same thing - why shouldn't we think that our inability to enjoy things for long is a defect that will be cured in heaven?
I look forward to the day when creation and mankind is renewed and we get to experience what God meant from the beginning.
Good news! The heavens and earth are being renewed right now! The kingdom of heaven has come down to earth, and Christ is reigning with His saints today!
Of course, there's still a lot of work that needs to be done, but so much progress has already been made, so let's do our part and proclaim that the war is already won, but that there are still battles ahead, and the King sits on His throne until all enemies are made His footstool.
Also, the new earth is more than the original. The new earth is the new original that surpasses the old good!
you mean two amoral humans and a god that has no idea that other animals can't be a mate for a human male?
Strangely topical profile pic
I look forward to being away from sin, even my own.
Another instance where fundamentalism and atheism apply literalism as the only possible hermanutic hammer!
Yeah, I see this problem come up all the time. Many people seem to have no ability to percieve metaphor or figurative language when reading the Bible
All American Christians are fundamentalists and literalists
Can you give me a definition of fundamentalism
Considering a lot of Anti-theists were fundamentalists says a lot.
@@JKMlive the anti-theists are simply addressing Christians (Americans, usually) on their own fundamentalist literal terms
Gavin, I'm an older brother of young siblings, and when I hear the idea that joy in heaven is both "full" and "growing," I think about my relationship with my sister who's 11 years younger than me. I remember when she was born, that was absolutely a full joy! But the joy in knowing her has only grown as she is becoming an adult and my friend.
I'm sure parents can relate to this in an even closer way. This seems to me to be a good metaphor for that paradox of joy!
love it!!
1 Corinthians 2:9 ESV
"But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”
Nuff said.
I was just about to post that before I saw you beat me to it. Perfect response to his ignorance.
@@milldude19 For sure man. The guy seems off. The look in his eyes are not one of peace.
What about those of us who don't love him but just bend the knee to him out of fear and the knowledge that he is all-powerful?
@@edwardkeeter762 Pray for true faith.
I can understand where you are coming from. For a long time I thought of God as this almighty judge just waiting to bring the hammer down on me if I stepped out of line. Here is the thing though. God wants a relationship with you. Not out of fear but one built on love and trust. Pray that you will find a love for Him like never before and that you will grow closer to Him and see Him like a Father and not a tyrant. The only way you can do that is to spend time in the Word and keep in prayer. Might not be a bad idea to go and talk to your preacher as well!
“Eternity is never going to be a good thing”
“The further down the road you go with the concept of infinity, you realize there’s no good version of it”.
“Nothing can go on forever and be a good thing”
God is goodness itself. Like, let that sink in. When we are united to Christ, and we will experience the beatific vision, we will be united to Truth, Goodness, and Beauty itself. So yeah, Heaven is a good thing, because it’s being in the presence of “goodness” itself.
The beatific vision is beautiful ☺️
I can't fully express my gratitude for this video. I saw Brandon's video a few months ago while I was in a circumstance of deep study but also isolation and didn't have a great rebuttal for most of his points. I've struggled with the concept of eternity for most of my life, always had some severe anxiety over it that came and went. I was hit with panic attacks daily after finding Brandon's video and really had to pull myself free of that isolated circumstance because I couldn't handle that tension alone. The concept of infinity and eternity has always been a roadblock between me and thinking deeply about God and studying scripture because I'm always drawn back to it. It reared its ugly head again due to a recent authorial undertaking that has left me with more than a few sleepless nights. I was actually praying in the wee hours of this morning about this very issue, asking for some kind of peace. And here this video comes across my feed... That imagery of the infinite chasm, and the truth of infinite happiness from an infinite source, absolutely brilliant. You have been an answer to prayer. Thank for all that you do. And Praise God! Infinite fount of every blessing!
The reason we struggle with the concept of eternity is because happiness down here fades away. I realize as a child the toy that brings me joy one day will slowly end up in bring emptiness a few days later. I read a gamer post that Breath of the Wild was their favorite game and wish they could unlearn it and play it again new. Ecclesiastes 1:2-3 " Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh UNDER THE SUN?" Time is our enemy in this life even slowly taking our love ones.
If we had to live in our sinful state for eternity it would be hell.
It won't just end your pain, it will mend it.
Wow. I love that.
The concern of looking foward to Heaven ruining our enjoyment of Earth is like being concerned that looking foward to marriage will ruin courtship. Memories of all the shared smiles and beauties between couples only become all the sweeter in the light of their ultimate unification; I don't think we should loose track of this beautiful reality when we consider the Biblical imagery of Heaven being ushered in by a marriage feast. Thank you, Dr. Ortlund! These concerns are certainly pressing things to address in our church society today.
Funny you'd mention the joys of marriage. You do remember that there is no marriage, no sex, and no romantic love in heaven, right?
@@edwardkeeter762 My friend, I believe you are misunderstanding my point. Heaven is not literally marriage, but our journey from Earth to Heaven has a lot in common with the journey from courtship to marriage.
@edwardkeeter762 human marriage is a symbol and precursor to the joys of heaven and our relationship with our creator in many ways. You definitely didn't understand OP or the cosmic symbolism laid out all through the scriptures.
Brandon watched the finale of The Good Place and decided to make it his theology 🙂↕️😅
Haha, that is what I thought, too. Gavin is right, though, that we Christians have let that sort of depiction be what people think of with heaven from a pop culture perspective, and even what has been taught from the pulpit.
Side note, I found the Good Place a really great show in general, but also in the way that it gives us a perspective into what a generalized, secular, western culture thinks about the afterlife and general religion and philosophy. There were so many parts in the later seasons where they got so close to the truth of reality but generally missed how Jesus and His sacrifice could solve those issues. There is a part where they almost realize that we all deserve the bad place, but they don't quite get there.
Pray for him! Hearing him talk about how heaven will be boring and that God is a tyrant is so sad. How does endlessly praising our Lord forever not sound amazing?
Church services lasting much more than a couple hours are generally perceived as stressful
Well, you'd have to convince him first that God is real. Good luck with that.
then start now, dear. Surely it will be "amazing", right? oh right, you'll give excuses why you won't do that.
I wrote up a list of things that are less appealing to me than endlessly praising God for all eternity. If you see something lying around that looks like a blank sheet of notebook paper, that would be my list.
@@edwardkeeter762 I, however, wrote an algorithm for listing everything MORE appealing than that. If you find it, give it back, because it will win me a Nobel for the Theory of Everything
The problem here with this dude is that the heavenliness of heaven isn't "all those things we could do". The heavenliness of heaven is Christ Himself.
Hes so caught up on material
Which dude?
@@paulacoyle5685 the athiest. Sorry, I should have been more specific.
I scrolled to find this exact comment. When Christ is your true treasure, and glorifying Him is your true desire, then an eternity of doing that (in whatever ways we will in heaven) sounds glorious.
@@JAREDBRIDGMAN praise God!
Hi Gavin, I'm agnostic but I think "heaven would be boring" has to be one of the worst arguments against theism! I really don't understand Mindshift's assertion that everybody would get bored. It's trivially easy to imagine an enjoyable state of existence that isn't constantly full of activity. For example, there are times I've sat quietly in a forest for long periods, not thinking about anything in particular but just being contemplative and relaxed, I wasn't bored at all. I don't think heaven is real, but in theory it sounds nicer than not existing!
That's a good analogy. As a nature lover, I relate to that a lot.
I thought about something similar. I’m in the medical field and have seen patients take medications that give them completely euphoria, peace, and contentment. They weren’t learning in that time, they weren’t playing a game, enjoying a hobby, or conversing with friends or family. It was just merely existing and resting in a state of bliss. If mere man made medications can enact this state, imagine how much more powerfully we could experience that, for all eternity, because of the God of the universe?
Beautiful video. I remember a particular day when I was a child, about 6 or 7, playing with my cousins at our family's cottage by the lake. Splashing in the water, playing made-up games, sharing our thoughts and opinions. At the end of the day, I felt a strange, wistful sadness that it was over. But somehow I also had the thought that I would get to live that day over again someday in heaven. I'm not sure where that idea came from, but I'd like to believe God was speaking to my heart.
I hope I make it there, and I hope to meet you, Gavin, and your viewers in that happy place God has made for us!
Yes! Before I knew about time and clocks as a child, the days just ran one into another with discovery and play; I think there will be so much to do without worry of any kind.
Simple, yes, but why not?
Back at my old house in pennylvania id lay on my trampeline during the fall watching the sky as beutiful leaves fall from the trees it was spectacular
I remember preparing for a bodybuilding competition while detoxing from heroin. Sleep was non existent, standing up was a chore, and every movement felt like utterly hopeless agony. Let alone going to the gym! Not to mention the bonus of the starvation diet. I can only hope I'm permitted to relive that arduous journey in the Hereafter
I grew up atheist - that was/is pretty much my take on it. I didn't get interested in Christianity for salvation, but because my life MUCH better after simply attending church one Sunday with a friend. Thank you for your podcasts, Gavin. They have been very helpful to my understanding.
Losing my thoughts in Heaven has always been an uncomfortable thought. That you take the opposite view here and provide evidence to that effect is calming
"I'm actually making the doctrine of Heaven a main focus in 2025"!!!!!! I'm so excited!
Like most atheists and deconstructionist, this gentleman takes a pile of unknowns and just goes “cup half empty“ on everything. It’s boring, juvenile, and dripping with his own underlying anger and pride. There is only one verse that matters in this discussion: “No eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the human heart conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”. Try going cup half empty with that.
It pains me that many are resistant to the idea of Heaven because they have the wrong idea of Heaven. The doctrine of Heaven as presented by Brandon here is how I thought of Heaven... when I was 10 years old. But through rational thought and the guidance of the Spirit, it's become clear to me that nothing could be better than eternity in Heaven. I often struggle with seeing people with incredible skills and thinking "If only I had the time to learn that." In Heaven, I will have the time, but upon the completion of my sanctification, I won't struggle with that same envy either; I will be able to better appreciate the skills of others without selfish thinking. What a wonderful thing to consider!
"Rational thought?" Brandon's presentation was rational. The Biblical description of heaven is anything but.
@@edwardkeeter762 Was it? Arguments like "I'll be bored after an infinite amount of time" fall flat in my eyes and just comes across as unimaginative. The whole idea of Heaven is being in the presence of the infinite God. Surely, an infinite God would be able to provide infinity to explore so that boredom wouldn't be a problem, right?
Are we talking about Heaven as it is or the New Heaven and New Earth following the Ressurection? These are two very different things. If nothing else, the latter will certainly be physical, if a different kind of physical existence than we are familiar with. The former? I'm not sure. I suspect many conflate the two under the single word "Heaven" without realizing what they're doing.
I think one of the major factors affecting the difference between Gavin and Brandon’s reactions is that Gavin has a love for God.
Think about marriage as an example. Imagine being locked into a lifelong relationship with someone you distain, with someone you think is a narcissist. It may be one of the most dreadful fates you can imagine.
Now, imagine being locked into a lifelong relationship with someone you truly love, someone you admire greatly (some may not have to imagine). Isn’t it one of the most beautiful things we are given on this earth?
The difference is love.
I get what you're saying, but I think you're missing the point Mindshift is making: If we really do imagine the actual implications of a state where we do nothing but worship God, is that really a desirable destiny, or just a lofty ideal that we really haven't considered seriously? To put it another way, let's really consider the example you gave of being "locked" into an intimate relationship where all you did was embrace that person. Imagine it. If that was all you did, it would soon go from bliss to intolerable. So if something isn't realistic in our human lives, on what basis are we to assume it's desirable after death?
@@joeoleary9010
I guess for me being nearer to God for eternity seems wonderful, being able to more fully comprehend how he is gloried in all that transpired on earth. It’s like it is with anyone we love, seeing them receive the recognition they deserve brings immense joy to our hearts. As long as God’s glory doesn’t fade, my joy will never fade.
I get the practical concerns that Brandon has (though I think the ones highlighted in this video are mostly based on misunderstanding). But those concerns fade away compared with the joy of being with my Creator and Savior.
I’m not trying to sound “holier than thou” but this is my genuine take on the subject.
How much must you hate God to go so far as to even dislike the idea of Heaven? Isn't that what deep down every human desires? A perfect world with complete peace and no more death and suffering?
A common problem among a lot of these critiques of Heaven is they seem to be based on the premise that we will be exactly the same as we are now and think exactly the same as we do now, but in a different location (even the specific objection that was mentioned that automatically assumed that God changing us in any way is bad). I know this isn't a perfect analogy, but it seems like saying that putting your muddy clothes in the dryer won't clean them so you shouldn't bother trying to clean them while completely ignoring the fact that they go in the washing machine first.
If heaven is soooo boring, what about the lake of fire?, i bet none of us would like to choose that place for sure... Whatever heaven is like, i want to be there instead of hell.
This is a very timely reminder - so much of what the world, both Christian and secular, conceives of as "heaven" is basically just a regurgitation of renaissance art. And so many of the objections to heaven seem devastating until you consider them from a perspective that's larger than what the secular world trains people in by default. To take one example, Mindshift positively insisted that heaven would be horrible simply because we would run out of things to do eventually, because we can only do something a certain number of times before we get bored of it, but he never considered that this itself might be one of the defects within us that will be cured in heaven. Just as God can receive glory and perhaps even enjoyment from watching the sun rise every day, and then say "do it again!" the next morning, why shouldn't we expect that a part of heaven will be the ability to truly enjoy an activity without limit?
Experiencing Him is something that is never enough. Constantly filling us. Just being in His presence forever is more than enough. If I could worship Him on my face forever that would be amazing honestly. But if you’ve never met His presence this all seems distant and foreign.
After many years of eastern mysticism and huge doses of hallucinogenic drugs, I reached the tangible feeling of my immortal soul. Now this may off course be only a subjective thing but it eventually got me to that exact same place where this man seems to be : I will eventually get bored of living in infinity and wish to be annihilated.
The only thing that prevented me from commiting suicide is the thought: live for others.
A couple of weeks of this sprouted many other parralel thoughts. Eventually, I realised that "my thoughts" keeping me alive were the teachings of Jesus 😅. I asked God for help and boy did he answer ! Praise God I'm alive and in Christ and life is already sooooo much better and beautiful !
It's hard to see heaven as a good thing when we are so focused on ourselves. I pray that this man continues in his contemplation and makes the discovery that so many made before us: Jesus is LORD and boy does He love you !
"....I don't think I can be wrong about." The pride in thinking you can't be wrong about your conceptualization of heaven. Really sad for these atheists
Saying someone's views are "really sad" without being willing or able to say why those views are wrong isn't all that impressive to me.
“Everything smaller than Heaven bores us because only Heaven is bigger than our hearts.”
Peter Kreeft
Gavin the GOAT of historical theologians!
Calm down with your hero worship man its embarassing
@@pamphilus3652 If you're upset that someone is commending and appreciating another individual for their work in the body of Christ, I'd suggest you find love. Seems to me you're an Orthodox or Roman catholic. Who's done hero worship than you guys??
Boredom is a deficiency in the person, not the circumstances. Glorification will make us constitutionally unable to be bored, because it will enable us to see the truth, goodness, and beauty of God's creation with such clarity we could never become bored with it.
Trent did respond to this guy 9 months ago. But im sure this too from Gavin will be great 😃
Who his this guy, some angry atheist?
@@morghe321 yes. Basically generic ex-fundie stuff
@@Jd-808ah, those are usually very hostile. They make it their life mission to criticize Christianity. They can't just let it go.
The other thing about believing in heaven is that it gives you hope in difficult times in a way that simply trying to make the best of this life doesn’t. I heard a story of missionaries who lost their infant son, and the character of hope they displayed afterward was enough to convince many people they were evangelizing to convert, because nobody had ever seen that kind of hope before.
I once had a close friend betray me in a significant way. It was brutally heartbreaking. But on the very day he had confessed this betrayal, as I prayed about it, I broke down in tears. To my surprise, these were not tears of sadness but tears of joy as I meditated on the depth of Christ's forgiveness and love for me.
When I remember that moment of grief and sadness, it does not affect me with suffering. It's completely the opposite. It produces joy!
This is the freedom that Christ gives us. It is incomprehensible. He turns grief and sorrow to joy without removing the reality of the suffering that was. How could heaven be weird or boring when we will live in the presence of such a God?
The heart that does not love Christ would not love heaven.
Totally agree; the symbolism should not be taken literally, but how else can we describe Heaven? I suspect that trying to explain Heaven to us is as difficult a task as trying to describe this world to an unborn child.
You articulated your argument well, Gavin but regardless, the little delights I get from being in Gods presence here on earth is enough for me and to think there’s more, is heaven indeed. It makes sense that those who are separated from God wails and gnash their teeth because they don’t know or love God.
Even highly pious people aren't thinking about God 24/7. There are 1000 other things that cross their mental landscape, and yet they're not wailing and gnashing their teeth. There are also lots of people who go days, weeks or their entire lives without thinking of God, yet they're not wailing and gnashing either. Actually, wailing and crashing is said in Matthew to be the fate of those who are thrown into h/ell as a consequence for their having not been pious enough in their earthly life.
I'm sure Brandon is a very smart guy, but this is a classic illustration of how the World percieves the Cross and what it stands for as utter foolishness, He just totally doesn't get it, but while I'm not always on board with CS Lewis's theology, these sort of statements do indeed illustrtate what Lewis was convinced of; that the doors of Hell are indeed locked from the inside.
Brandon's overall point may be very smart or not so smart, but it's still a very valid point: If all you know of the joys of living is life on earth with all its variety of activities and relationships and sensual pleasure and entertainments, then why are you so sure that a life *without* all those human things for all eternity is desirable? I wish people here would at least acknowledge that Brandon is posing a valid question, rather than dismissing him as a lost sinner.
@@joeoleary9010 Theologian A. A. Hodge wrote, Heaven, as the eternal home of the divine Man and of all the redeemed members of the human race, must necessarily be thoroughly human in its structure, conditions, and activities. Its joys and its occupations must all be rational, moral, emotional, voluntary, and active. There must be the exercise of all faculties, the gratification of all tastes, the development of all talent capacities, the realization of all ideals. The reason, the intellectual curiosity, the imagination, the aesthetic instincts, the holy affections, the social affinities, the inexhaustible resources of strength and power native to the human soul, must all find in heaven exercise and satisfaction.
I agree with Brandon - I would not want to live in heaven designed by him. But I desperately want to live in the Heaven created by God, in all His dimensions of which we cannot even conceive. I have some things to worry about- the inadequacy of the New Heaven and the New Earth is not one of them.
For a skeptic, I would bring up a non-religious example: Star Trek. This is a sci-fi universe imagining an ideal future where humanity reaches the point of “post-scarcity”. This does *not* mean a stagnant existence. In fact we see this frees humanity to explore and discover the universe. I would say this is similar to what Christians believe about heaven.
This was an amazing response. I found myself pausing before your answers, seeing if I could come up with something to respond with, and I found that our answers often matched perfectly (though you were far less verbose 😂). Great video!
Gavin, you have my permission to quote Lewis as much as you’d like ❤️
I am Bible college student currently, this has been a very eye opening topic as I haven’t understood much on the doctrine of heaven. Very encouraging stuff Gavin! Thank you!
Beautiful. The clarity and organization of the video is incredibly helpful. Also, I want to encourage you that your "preacher" mode in your videos does not detract from the experience. It is you living out your purpose on the channel, "Gospel assurance through theological depth". We get to see your heart rejoice in these beautiful truths. As a young pastor, I am blessed by watching your videos (on some of my other email accounts) and am so encouraged by you. Thank you.
Thank you for clarifying the beautiful doctrine of heaven
I was caught by this title as this actually came in our lifegroup meeting several years ago as we were studying Revelation. One person said (paraphrased), "I think I would get bored in heaven just singing praises forever". While this was being discussed, and being an avid deer hunter I pictured the deer I've watched over the years and asked the person, "Do you think a deer is ever bored? My response was, "Just as a deer never gets bored, we won't be bored...Why? Because we'll be doing what we are created to do...While we're doing exactly what we're created to do we cannot be bored"!
I imagine that learning in heaven will involve all the stimulation and joy of learning without the frustration that comes with not getting it on the first try. I suspect we also might not feel the urgency to get things right on the first time since our time will no longer be limited in that place.
Wonderful video. Really sad for Brandon, though.
No sense of the infinite goodness of God, or of our capacity for interest and delight being able to expand and grow. No sense even of the possibility of our pain and guilt being redeemed and turned to glory. I can sure see how such a sad and shriveled view of the world would make it hard to imagine heaven.
Brandon: I don’t wanna live forever
Me (convinced of conditional immortality) : do I have some good news for you Brandon!
When I walk closely with God, I can feel a joy of knowing him and knowing I am saved by his grace. I can't imagine how wonderful that will feel actually standing in his presence!
Mind shift is really hard to be charitable with for me. The guy has been so hurt and it so angry with God that he's just looking for any kind of "ammunition" to hurl. Really painful to listen to.
Brandon’s assessment is so sad. He can’t envision that whatever Heaven is like, it’s going to be glorious because we will be continually in the presence of God. And that will be enough. I’m going to be praying for Brandon.
Thank you Gavin for making content and being thoughtful, gracious, and articulate. God bless you and your family brother.
Gavin i love your content. Protestant apologetics is a big gap subject-wise in social media. You are my favorite in that respect 😊 100% !!!!!
"The saints will reign with Christ for a thousand years"
That's how heaven is described in Revelation. Whatever that means, it doesn't sound boring at all.
And after these thousand years we live in the new heavens and new earth, basically a glorified version of the world we live in.
I do agree that churches often neglect teaching a robust doctrine of heaven, and I have met people who are terrified that it's going to be an eternal church service. Personally, I think that it's impossible for us to understand heaven right now, as our minds are conditioned to think in terms of limitations...limitations of time, resources, energy, etc (in addition we usually have a negative attitude towards these limits). Heaven probably won't have limitations! Or negative attitudes! And that's very hard for our brains to conceptualize.
Also still water gets gross because of the things in it changing, so it's not like it's a totally static system.
I once asked my mum if I would remember my previous life in heaven, as I have misery in my past. We came to an interesting conclusion. Nostalgia. When we remember a good holiday, we don’t dwell much on the old parts. Sometimes we even forget them. I think when we go to heaven, the pain of our bad memories will fade away. We may remember things that went wrong, but the memory will no longer hurt. We will look back with nostalgia.
2 minutes in and I already have to chuckle at his quibbles with the word gold. In order to communicate to our human sensibilities we have to use imagery from our earthly life. Will it be literal gold? We don’t know. But what we do know is that gold is of high value and a sign of opulence, plenty, and wealth and so we can see the streets of heaven as having those characteristics.
What Mindshift is missing is that God Himself is in heaven. That’s it.
Gavin you are wonderful, I thank God for you and your ministry, and thank you for edifying fellow Christians. I for sure need to buy some, if not all of your books. It's on the list!
This is wonderful and very helpful. I too have thought that heaven would be one very long church services. Of course, no offering because the streets are paved with gold…who will need money in heaven? Of course if there is a sermon to be preached Jesus would do that…but then I wondered…what else? Would another service start right after the first one ended? Wouldn’t that get old after a while?
Scepticism against heaven from one who doesn't even want to go there
Hi Dr. Ortlund! Great video, thanks for sharing. Just FYI the link in your video description for the Easter video is actually a link to the heaven video. I love thinking about heaven and how AWESOME its going to be.
PS - I grew up in an EFCA church (still go there) so it was fun to see you joined one. I also have had several friends go to TEDS so that was a cool connection too.
Thanks for this, Gavin. I have struggled with some of the points Brandon made, and this video has made the hope of Heaven even greater. God bless.
Adam and Eve walked with the Lord in the cool of the morning. The Lord also gave them the whole world to enjoy, and much more, to be in relationship with Him forever. Doesn't sound like harp playing on clouds. The Lord should be enough. I don't think Brandon is being honest, I think he's trying to obfuscate to discourage people from following Christ.
We should also remember that there is a new HEAVEN and a new EARTH.
Wow, I needed that today.
It would be great to engage with many of his other videos because they all follow the same pattern and being easy to pick appart, they make for great expositions of the truth of the christian faith and bring good clarification to misunderstandings, caricatures or (theo-)logical errors.
Mind Shift is pretty prolific on the content creation, yes? Adequately assessing all of them would be a big undertaking.
one of the best videos i have seen! thank you!
Even if heaven was eternally praising God with all the saints, the sheer fact that there is full satisfaction in the presence of the Lord makes that marvelous. To be with God in perfect harmony, how could we not be satisfied. If you finished everything you ever wanted to do and didnt know what else to do, you could sit at the feet of Christ for eternity and be fully content. That is heaven. The flesh may not like it, but oh how the Christian longs for it. To lay on the Savior's chest is heaven, to be with Him perfect forever would be heaven even if we didn't have anything else to do. Full satisfaction for eternity. I can not even process in my finite mind. Amazing. And yet on top of that, I do agree that the new creation seems to be so much more. Wow.
Love this, Gavin! I look forward to future content themed to heaven. I think one concept which I've been unclear on regarding heaven has to do with the new heavens and the new earth. I understand the language of "heaven will come to earth" and that earth would be renewed, but it often comes across as if whatever "current" heaven exists would fade away. It almost sounds like we would experience a second death. In thinking through this, I've come to emphasize God's eternal nature and how we are to join him after this life. That isn't a thing that goes away, but something that in our perspective might increase, and we would come more fully into knowing eternity as earth is restored. However, I think the thought of a new earth with new bodies would infer that when we die, we join God in eternity - not in a space where we have bodies.
Can’t wait for more of Gavin’s thoughtful videos about Heaven! 😊
I take the streets of gold to mean, that the thing we find so valuable on earth is nothing compared to what's in Heaven. We will be walking on gold
Great defense Gavin! Glory to God
I recommend the book Heaven, by Randy Alcorn
So does Gavin :)
@VickersJon ah, have not listened to the video yet, haha
@@carolinajackson7621 Great minds…
@@VickersJon haha!
Great video. Really encouraging.
Like so many other skeptics, Mindshift is struggling not with Heaven, but with a caricature of Heaven.
Brandon's criticizing a philosophy that's all wretch and no vomit.
This was great, thanks for the book recommendation as well!
Thank you for your comments about heaven. It behoves all of us, as you recommend to study the concept and doctrine of heaven.
I had a recurring "nightmare" earlier in my life that was very much like Brandon's concept of Heaven. I was in a huge spherical space, like a giant, perfectly spherical cave the size of a city or larger. The outer wall was smooth and pure white, and all along the outer wall billions and billions of people were sat in little chairs, looking inwards towards the middle of the sphere where there was a light that I perceived to be "God," and everyone was just singing and praying towards it. The nightmare was so bad because, despite the size of the space, I felt extremely claustrophobic in it. I felt trapped, like I couldn't get out, couldn't breathe, couldn't distract my mind with anything other than looking at the light, and knowing it would be forever without end.
This was a long time ago, when I was young, and I'm long past it. I realized that no God who made the world and declared it Good would be happy with such a stifling, boring hole. No God who promised Heaven would deliver something so terrifying to creatures that he made to be in terror of it, and call it fulfillment. Whatever is in store for us is beyond our imagining, because we can't imagine anything as Good as the reality.
If I could compile my favorite teachings on heaven, it would be
1. The physicality of the EO heaven.
2. The beatific vision of Thomas Aquinas.
3. The catholic heaven from the Simpsons.
Perhaps the Mandelbrot Set provides a look into the infinite possibilities of the New Heaven and New Earth. Every step forward offers an undiscovered beauty of His creation.
I would literally be totally fine worshiping the Lord through song all day every day.
Brandon commits a really obvious mathematical blunder in his video. He claims that if you live forever then you will do everything an infinite number of times.
This is clearly false. It's like saying "If you start counting the natural numbers and never stop, then you will count each number an infinite number of times".
And clearly, you won't. You would never even finish counting all of the natural numbers once.
What he also fails to realise is that seasons of life keep things fresh and interesting. Sure, if you listened to the same song on repeat day in and day out it would get boring and become painful to listen to. But if you listen to the song occasionally, and listen to many other songs in between, then it keeps the songs fresh and enjoyable.
Lastly, if you have ever truly loved someone then you would never want to be apart from them. I find it shocking that Brandon hates the idea of being with his loved ones forever, and quite frankly, I think it reveals that he has never truly loved anyone.
Love does not get boring or old. Love endures forever and only gets better with time.
I hope one day Brandon actually learns what it means to love someone.
You have such excellence and generosity, toward errors and corrections through the early years of doctrine development or clarity. Yet, ? don't we all need just a bit of "bashing" once in a while. I would say our doctrines on geological floods, and evolution are relatively young, rather insignificant, and may be influenced by "popular academia". Love you and your work so much. Do this theology more!
The key words in Brandon's criticisms are couched in me, my, and I. His argument is entirely self-focused.
4:26 I love thinking of the Doctrine of Heaven as well lol. I never thought an unbeliever could view Heaven as an offensive Doctrine lol.
When he starts talking about sorrow, my mind immediately went back to when he said he didn’t want to live forever. Oh Brandon, how much you miss…
Your response in wonderful. I deeply appreciate how gracious you are, yet dare I suggest that your handling of his video is (not too "gracious" in the true sense of grace from God, but) too gentle? He is not hernestly inquiring about these things, like either an unbeliever with misconceptions looking for clarification or a dear brother with misapprehensions seeking better understanding. He is making an insidious, lying, damnable attack on the truth and the goodness of our God, trying to turn believers away from their hope. If someone brought me his objections as concerns, I hope I would be all patience and gladness to dispell their fears. He is attacking the faith. I will allow that he is not deliberately lying, but he is using misapprehensions based on pervasive shallowness and deficient theology (and philosophy, and mathematics...) If he was interested, he easily could have found Christian resources (such as you mentioned) addressing many of these concerns. He is not interested, as evidenced by the fact that he did not make a video inquiring but attacking.
He does raise a legitimate point about the eternity of the new creation. By the "problem" of very large numbers with the pigeonhole principle, eventually it will be genuinely impossible to do anything "new" (e.g. every possible sequence of bodily and mental states in every possible location with every possible combination of other persons will be exhausted (every possible chess game played, every possible book up to a million pages written and read, every mathematical proof of similar length discovered, every song a thousand hours long composed and played a million times etc.)) HOWEVER, you pointed to the correct resolution to this problem - the ultimate and eternal glory of the new creation is the infinite God Himself. Our God is life Himself, joy Himself, pleasure Himself (not "itself"), ultimately, fundamentally personal, and He has made us for Himself. In all the eternity of days the day will never come when we say, "I do not want anymore." Each day will be the best. This is what we were made for. This is what we were saved for. Union and communion with our God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. "Eschatology preceeds soreriology."
Thanks for this and many other videos, brother.
I agree, singing forever does sound boring. But so much better than hell. I hope I get to hang out with my family. friends, and meet the people of the Bible. Plus, we get to see Jesus!
I have one question: if the heaven will be so great, why couldn't God do this at the beginning? What was earth for in the first place? I feel like this life is some kind of test, some zoo we live in didn't even want to be in. If heaven is so great what was the point of postponing it?
Great video Gavin!
This guy is so world focused and you can tell he's had a pretty good life because he can't conceive of an eternity better from this life.
The problem is that if so much of this is metaphorical or non-literal rhetoric, then what can we trust to be literal truth?
Fantastic video. Great way to start the day
The gold part is also a good example of the issue with the purely relativistic view of art. Gold isn't only beautiful and worthy due to rarity (entirely socially dictated and circumstantial). Certain things are beautiful across populations and across time. The objective/truth basis for art flips his argument completely on that. One could even go as far as to argue gold is beautiful to us on earth, because it's a glimpse of heaven, and our desires aren't totally independent from God's influence.
His arguments make sense when freedom over obedience and relativism are assumed. But they breakdown when those are deconstructed.
Brandon’s arguments are just wholly deprived of any meaningful thought. I also don’t think Brandon actually understands metaphor