Doctor Who and the Mystery Box
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Since its revival in 2005, Doctor Who has favored one particular format of over-arching story in each series: the mystery box. Something referred to but what it is won't be clear until the end of the given series. And I'm sick of it and am going to rant about why for a bit.
✔ SUPPORT ✔
Patreon: / councilofgeeks
RUclips Membership: / @councilofgeeks
Paypal tip jar: PayPal.me/coun...
Ko-fi: ko-fi.com/vera...
✔ OTHER CHANNELS ✔
Break Room of Geeks / @breakroomofgeeks
Vera Wylde: / verawylde
✔ SHOP ✔
Merch: www.teepublic....
My Book on Gender Fluidity: a.co/d/atfibBA (Amazon Associate link, commissions earned)
My Fantasy Novel: amzn.to/2SCxB8j (Amason Associate link, commissions earned)
✔ SOCIAL MEDIA ✔
Twitter: / councilofgeeks
Facebook: / councilofgeeks
TikTok: www.tiktok.com...
Instagram: www.instagram....
Twitch: / councilofgeeks
✔ OTHER PROJECTS ✔
Podcast with my Partner: fireandwaterpod...
Council of Geeks Podcast (home of What the Frell & Jumpgate): councilofgeeks...
✔ WISHLISTS ✔
www.amazon.com...
www.etsy.com/p...
✔ CONTACT ✔
E-mail: councilofgeeks@gmail.com
Mail:
Council of Geeks
PO Box 4429
St. Johnsbury, VT 05819
My video on the issue of the BBC's support of Transphobia: ruclips.net/video/aN4uc0HZrWE/видео.html
My video on the BBC's response to complaints of its reporting: ruclips.net/video/skh81N5lcYY/видео.html
My short on why I'll continue to put up the note at the front of these: ruclips.net/user/shortsHpwwzjzFXiE
Shaun's 1st video, which includes some additional confirmed information: ruclips.net/video/b4buJMMiwcg/видео.html
Shaun’s 2nd video, which follows how the BBC is trying to dodge accountability for all of this: ruclips.net/video/qfjTG6SVjmQ/видео.html
Shaun’s 3rd video, following him escalating his complaints: ruclips.net/video/fRn1UZ4fhdE/видео.html
Shaun's 4th video, covering the BBC's response: ruclips.net/video/3F7GW7Ro4OQ/видео.html
Laura Kate Dale's protest speech outside the BBC offices: ruclips.net/video/hBjGnWkwAjI/видео.html
For series 4, the creepiest one was the one where they kept mentioning there was something on Donna's back. There was also the whole DoctorDonna but that was not so much of a mystery as it could have been referencing the Doctor and Donna's friendship.
Bees disappearing and turning out to be aliens returning to their home planet is still my favorite one, because it's just absolutely bonkers and hilarious and everyone (including characters in the show) kind of just shrug it off
Yeah i love that one. It’s also cool how the disappearing planets are the motivation for multiple series 4 villains.
Reminds me of Douglas Adams' reason for the title "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish".
When certain shows that used the Mystery Box formula were airing in real time & you had to wait a week between eps (sometimes more over holiday breaks) it was a different experience than watching the same show streaming where you can now essentially watch an entire season in one or two sittings depending on length of season. I have rewatched (aka binged) a couple three shows that I originally watched in real time at original air & it definitely feels different. In real time the mystery (whether a mystery box or not) felt like it went on for a year lol but when binging the pace seems very excellerated. I just started a rewatch of Doctor Who & am midway thru season 3. I could not remember what Bad Wolf was for the life of me & personally felt the reveal was a little "meh." I think I enjoyed the season that opened with The Doctor being killed & working backwards the most but I'll have to see on rewatch how I feel about it. Would you consider River Song a Mystery Box? I bailed on the show around Capaldi's 2nd season I think. When shows become too Lore Heavy & convoluted & Mystery Box laden I tend to lose interest especially when the pay off isn't there or the same things keep getting retread.
I don’t mind the mystery box format but when it’s done over and over again the exact same way it tends to get old especially how the doctor does where there is a phrase said throughout the season that with hint at he companion’s actions from the season finally or them being involved in some way to the mystery box like season 6 where we find out Amy and Rory are river’s parents then we find out she is the astronaut making them involved cause their daughter is the one who is supposed to kill the doctor put season 7 as a whole is a mystery box cause of the first 2 Clara appearances in the asylum of the daleks then the snowmen with the code phrase for the series run you clever boy and remember said first at the end of asylum of the daleks
I loved the Clara mystery box storylines. Asylum of the Daleks was one of my favorite episodes of all time.
That was a solid kick off. I don’t think it worked once we got Clara prime though.
@@CouncilofGeeks Eggs. Some hatched, some were soufflé.
I actually like that there's 3 different ones to do with season 4 that all feel unconnected too. With it confirmed that we'll only get 8 episodes a year I think they'll do these either less often or turn it into a multi series story like how really all of matt smiths era has an ongoing story arc with the silence
edit - I thought the time lords thought the doctor knew about the hybrid was because he was the child that got lost in the archives and was given too much information as a result
The rat is absolutely adorable!!!😍
I can take or leave the mystery box format. But what I do really like is when a show hides background details that you only catch on a repeat viewing. Things that only make sense once you know more about what's going on.
It makes world building even better to be honest
@@benjamindavis4974 I agree the suttle ones are better like the RTD ones but the early Moffat ones were a bit rough however Capaldi had some better mystery boxes. Chibnall did ruin them though with the Timeless Child
@@benjamindavis4974 I actually really liked Moffat's storytelling of the Silence and the Kovarian Chapter and all that, how you saw all the pieces out of order and they slowly started to connect together. But I'm probably alone in that lol
Oh yes the forshadowing that you can seeor miss,yes.
@@benjamindavis4974 yess! The saxon arc was even hinted at during S2 with the newspaper the Abzorbaloff is reading
I think the series arcs tend to work better when they directly affect the series (see the cracks in series 5 and the Silence in series 6). Honestly I find the RTD style of random name dropping an extremely lazy way to construct an arc.
Series 6 also had Madame Kovarian appearing in the little window frames, although it only lasted for the first half. Freaked me the heck out as a kid too
For real though
The thing about mystery boxes is that to do them right, the mystery has to evolve. I know you probably wouldn't classify that as a mystery box at that point, but my personal idea of what a mystery box is, is "a centralized object, person, or idea with mostly unknown properties that drives the characters in a story to discover more about it." The thing about RTD's mystery boxes is that they're *not* really Mystery Boxes, they're repeated phrases or ideas that just keep getting dropped. Bad Wolf, Torchwood, Harold Saxon. The characters don't even know about the significance of these phrases until the end. Contrast that with something like The Impossible Girl, which actively drives the Doctor's motivations for the season. However, The Impossible Girl doesn't work because, as you said, in order to keep the mystery of her going, she had to basically nonexist as a character. But I still think there could have been interesting things done with that. I think if Series 7-B had shown the Doctor like, looking into it, trying to figure out what her deal with, maybe being suspicious of her during expeditions, and Clara picks up on that. That could even bleed into a character trait for her (which, god knows Series 7 Clara needed), she's observant, she picks up on things when people think they're hiding it well. Then the biggest thing I think needed to happen was...not the ending of Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS. I think that episode would have been perfect if Clara retained her memories of what happened. Now suddenly she knows something is up with her, and she knows the Doctor is obsessed with finding out what it is. So now their relationship is strained, Clara thinks she's only traveling with the Doctor because she's a puzzle to be solved, a mystery to find out. This causes tension between them and maybe Clara leaves, only for things to happen, specifically relating to her mystery-box status, hopefully, that brings her back on board the TARDIS for the finale. It's still a mystery box--we still don't know what Clara's deal is, or how the Doctor is going to figure it out--but now we have an evolution, character development, PLOT PROGRESSION. I dunno, I really like Mystery Boxes but they have to be done RIGHT, and Doctor Who...doesn't really do them right most of the time lmfao
Mr Saxon actually had his first reference in Love and Monsters being on the newspaper which i dont know if it intentional but it was cool on the rewatch.
I think it was intentional even if they had no idea what it was going to become later. Makes you wonder about the potential seeds that were planted, never used and we'll never know about because they were never referenced again.
I will agree with you on all of this except for the one for Saxon. The "mystery box" for that season was connected to an ARG where fans who went to the website from the "filler episode" would be encouraged to start putting together clues that Saxon was the Master. "Mister Saxon" was even an anagram for "Master No. Six." So when the Master reveal happened, firstly, we didn't expect Jacobi because we knew Mister Saxon was Simms, and then when he reincarnated into Simms, it all made sense. He'd gone back in time to hatch his plot and had been working in the background the entirety of that season, even using his rise to Prime Minister to launch little schemes in order to gather intelligence on the Doctor and UNIT that tied stakes back into the season.
So, it's still a mystery box, and I get that the ARG and theory mongering isn't your thing, but I don't think it should be dismissed away the same as Bad Wolf as this one *was* actually connected to the fan base in a meaningful way for those who were looking to follow the clues and put it together before the reveal, which still had the Jacobi twist to keep us in the dark until the last couple minutes of that episode as to how it all came together. That being said, it would definitely have worked better had they made Mister Saxon's machinations a bit more transparently evil from the start, but I'd almost even compare this more to the Buffy thing where we know Saxon wants info on the Doctor, we just don't know why and the answer is because he's the Master. You might piece it together right away or you more likely won't unless you went on the easter egg hunt.
I think they wanted to do something similar to this with Missy, but it just wasn't as well executed and didn't have the easter eggs to back it up, just the name.
⁶
The Crack is definitely my favourite because it actually impacts some of the stories. It wasn't just name dropping until the finale.
In defense of RTD's use of mystery boxes, what I like about the RTD mystery box IS the fact that it doesn't affect the plot of individual episodes. RTD was always more character-focused in his writing, and that's what I find more interesting anyway. So, Bad Wolf or Mr. Saxon machinating in the background as a truck that the audience sees coming but the characters don't because they have their AirPods in, I find that that leaves more room for the viewers to focus on character arcs rather than "Ouu, what's the answer to the mystery?!" which I got really tired of with Moffat's era.
Yes, Moffat's mystery boxes usually affected the stories more directly, but they tended to pull focus from the characters, especially after series 6.A. And I know this criticism was lobbed at RTD, but Moffat was WAY more egregious with telling the audience a random phrase that means nothing and then insisting that it's important and you want to know the answer. (Silence will fall; The Pandorica will open; Trenzalor, etc). There's even a scene in series 6 where a character literally lists off mysteries TO THE DOCTOR lol.
With RTD it was characters saying a word or discussing a concept (the lost moon of Poosh), or maybe even a background character saying something, but he never insisted that you pay attention to them. They were just details that you pick up on in the world, whereas Moffat made a much more bombastic showing of how mysterious his mysteries are.
Someone show this video to the writers of Star Trek: Discovery.
I think Saxon was a decent one in how he wasn’t just posters but also this enigmatic person from somebody ordering the military around to somebody turning Martha’s family against the Doctor. A mystery box sure but one who was moving he plot unseen. We’re pondering his identity until…
I seem to have a different take on these plot pieces. I saw it as part of world building, especially in the RTD era. Vote Saxon is particularly interesting in that regard. Remember, the posters also showed up in the Torchwood show. We didn't know who Saxon was, but he was part of the characters lifes. The You Are Not Alone mystery is probably more of an easter egg but there being a new prime minister and the Doctor not paying attention was fun. And with the Torchwood references: You already had an idea what Torchwood is and what it does before the finale. It wasn't really a mystery. On the contrary, it made Torchwood less mysterious. I loved how they made it part of this world before it got it's own show.
They could have started the respective finales with claiming the thread was there all along, retconning the whole season with flashbacks - like many shows actually do. But they made the effort to seed the hints early.
Also, it's fun when the viewer knows something the Doctor doesn't. ;)
Honestly I'm with you, I want this to go away, at least for a while. It almost feels like the Timeless Child thing was Chibnall balking cause of the response series 11 got so he was like "ok fine, more of the same then". Also, while you don't bring it up, something else I could go without for a while longer (even though it *has* been a while)? All this super ultra importance put on certain companions. "Bad Wolf", "Doctor Donna", "The Girl Who Waited", "The Impossible Girl".....christ was Bill and by extension EVERY Chibnall companion a breath of fresh air in the sense they were just people travelling in the TARDIS without any of that crap grafted onto them.
I like the planets disappearing and vote Saxton the best gives a tiny bit of World building vibes that something is actually happening in the background that the doctor doesn't know about, ngl I kind of do have a soft spot for the repeating phrases...can agree they need to become less predictable
I do think they need to lean on the mystery side of the companions more, they don't need to make them super special like Clara...have a companion that is actively trying to mislead the doctor of course they would find out don't make it a whole season arch that would be insulting the doctors intelligence, or have someone following the doctor visiting there recent locations of there adventures..each appearance you learn more just not seeing the person show up
Oh and davies forshadowing something is up with saxton while dunking on tony blaire later. Like he knew what he set up roughly arcwise.
“The answer doesn’t actually matter” is a trick Moffatt uses a lot throughout his career. Sometimes it’s good, sometimes it’s annoying. It’s also the hook of Citizen Kane. I think the best post-Kane use of the trope I’ve seen is in the last of the Lemony Snickett books. I love Hell Bent, and I know that Vera hates it and has tried their damn best to like it, but I really don’t mind its use of the trope.
An interesting point about overuse - because I have usually enjoyed the mystery boxes. I absolutely loved series 5 mysteries, series 6 mysteries, and the overall ‘silence will fall’ across the 11th doctor’s era. I liked Bad Wolf for its payoff and originality at the time, I liked the Vault for all the reasons you said, and I even liked the hybrid (but I won’t get into that). And I actually think Series 13 had the mystery box of ‘what happened in the doctor’s past’, which we ultimately only got a few bits of before literally dropping the memories into the tardis. Ultimately, I agree with you. While I think I will still enjoy the mystery boxes going forward (if they happen), I think I’ll enjoy the seasons more if they do different-style story arcs for a while.
The first half of S7 had something going on with the lights, however it seems to just get dropped and not picked back up.
I liked "bad wolf." I think part of why it works is emblematic of how LTD and Moffat treat the box differently. The overarching narrative of season 1 is the doctor returning and recovering from the time war. Not bad wolf, that's just an Easter egg that gets revealed in episode 10. The time crack on the other hand is holding the episodes together...
The other thing that helps season 10's box is that the episodes have a lose Cyberman theme to them. What I'm trying to say is the box becomes problematic when there isn't a strong overarching narrative, but instead the writer is using the box to patch that issue.
I can’t help noticing that literally every time that the mystery box has the audience asking “who is it”, it always turns out to either be The Doctor, their companion, or The Master.
Who is The Bad Wolf? Rose Tyler
Who is Harold Saxon? The Master
Who is it inside the astronaut suit? River Song
Who is Missy? The Master
who is The Hybrid? depending on your interpretation, either The Doctor or Clara Oswald (or both)
Who is inside the vault? The Master
Who is The Timeless Child? unfortunately, The Doctor
I know that it’s never The Rani (and probably never will be now that Pip and Jane Baker have both died), but couldn’t they shake it up a bit, like imagine if Missy had turned out to be an older and/or regenerated version of Jenny or if The Meddling Monk had been locked inside the vault.
Heck, Maisie Williams turned out to be playing an entirely new character despite all the speculation that she was a younger version of Clara or a future incarnation of Susan, so why does the mystery box even need to be a character that we’ve seen before?
The TV series should take a page from Big Finish's book - like what they did with 8 and Charley. Charley is not a mystery, the audience knows right from Storm Warning that The Doctor saved her when he shouldn't have. And the ramifications of that are so important to stories like Seasons of Fear, The Chimes of Midnight, Neverland, and Zagreus. Then there's the Divergent Universe arc, which while less great was an interesting concept for an arc
I wasn't familiar with the concept of a "mystery box" until you made this video so I merely thought of them as "overarching season-long plot-lines" which seem to be a feature of NuWho. Growing up watching Classic Who, most seasons featured a number of unconnected "adventures". The problem with that is it didn't build tension towards the season finale... The final adventure had as much (or as little) weight as the first. Personally, I enjoy the idea that we are travelling towards a dramatic conclusion each season... But I understand there's a lot of scope in HOW you achieve that and I agree many "Mystery Boxes" in NuWho have been a bit formulaic. It must be hard to have a "big bad threat" following the Doctor through a season though when you consider they can travel through all of time and space. Maybe that's why so many mystery boxes have related to the Doctor or the companion themselves.
Good video. I agree with your overall conclusion that mystery boxes are overused, though I don’t necessarily agree with some of your finer points. For instance, series 6 has 4 distinct mystery boxes, not one. The impossible Astronaut, Is Amy pregnant, the lady in the window and Who is River Song. In my opinion, these mystery boxes are far less successfully pulled off than say the three from series 4 - Rose, the Doctor Donna, and the missing planets. The problem with the Moffat era is that many of the instances of the mystery box references were just shoehorned, such as the crack at the end of beast below, the end sequences in series 6 referencing the mystery box, etc.
Edit: added clarifying text.
I knew it was only a matter of time before you did a video on the mystery box, I'm ready for something new and looking forward to this video (I wrote this before watching :P
I would argue the mystery box in Flux is The Division.
I like the mystery box format. It makes the show easy to rewatch and it's fun to find the small details later on. But on the other hand it would be nice to something new. That's the reason I was hopeful towards Flux.
I think it's interesting to think about the time frame of season 1 and how social media marketing of media properties was still a relatively new thing that was making an impact in culture more generally. For some cultural milestones, Blair Witch was 1999, and Snakes on a Plane was 2006. Social media marketing used to generate hype for media properties via fan discourse online was a very potent meme in the early 2000's.
The Bad Wolf thing was smartly and deliberately designed to maintain social media buzz and fan discussion about the show and was probably intrumental in it's international success and it's continuation past that first season. Unfortunately, memes die hard. It became socially expected that this was the kind of thing Doctor Who did... it's just what doccy who is now. People tuned in expecting and wanting a mystery tease to speculate about for the season. Even in the later years, as the meme was stale and obvious, Moffat couldn't just throw it away, opting instead to iterate and experiment with it yielding mixed results.
Season 11 was finally a breath of fresh air on that front. There was the one dangling tease about the big mystery of season 12, but mostly it was just an episodic season with no breadcrumbs... almost to it's detriment when they tried to re-establish the villian from episode 1 in the finale and there was no reason to care about the stakes. Coming hot on the heels of the hybrid and the vault mystery seasons, it was just nice to enjoy a season of Who without a season long macguffin for once.
And do you know what I heard in fan discourse about season 11? This season was bad because no seasonal 'arc'. It just doesn't feel like the same show because no fricking mystery box. Omg, no. Please stop. Let the Bad Wolf meme die already, please.
I totally agree on the point that there are just different doctor who fans who will either bite w/ these mystery boxes or not, and of course the fact that a lot of them are not actually stories, just a quick fix to add some intrigue. As someone who likes to theorize w/ Doctor Who the mystery boxes are hit or miss for me too, but ultimately there are some that have become the most memorable to me when I look back on their seasons. While the cracks in time were originally interesting, I think a lot of people forget how Moffat brought it back and kind of fumbled it at the very end of Matt Smith’s tenure when he didn’t need to. Series 10 is also one of my fave series of modern DW, and honestly made me mourn the time we could have gotten with Capaldi and new characters, rather than all the Clara rewrites.
Torchwood was also interesting how the new Prime Minister Harriet Jones wasn’t suppose to know about them and that they’d know a thing about aliens aside from the Doctor. Couple that with their laser cannon to eliminate aliens that put Harriet on Ten’s bad side and well, a pretty sneaky set up for antagonists.
I think season 4 works the best because all the mystery box phrases and ideas do actually effect and instigate the plot (like in Fires of Pompeii, the pyroville are only there starting shit because their planet was lost, same with the Adipose, and the Giant bee guy from the Agatha Christie ep)
Yes get rid of it for now. This is a show with endless possibilities yet it’s so insistent on doing and acting the same way.
Does the Timeless Child answer the Hybrid?
Hmmm. 🤔
I feel like the hybrid could have worked as a long-con River Song reveal leading almost directly into Husbands of River Song. Like we already know who she is to the Doctor bc of series 6. So basically, the gallifreyans are scared of River because she is the woman who nearly collapsed time itself to avoid killing the man she loves. So we get the hybrid sprinkled throughout the season, with a bit more information on her throughout the season, like why the hell is the hybrid actually dangerous, why did the time lords think he knew.
HB doesn’t happen as it actually did, but instead in Heaven Sent, we continually get more explicit references to River being the hybrid and then instead of Clara’s ending, we get Missy showing up to help her oldest friend. They end up erasing River from the Time Lords’ memory/archives etc (a la season 6, when the doctor erased himself from every database in the universe).
Alternatively, similar premise but with the DoctorDonna, tying into the reason behind twelve’s face and all that.
This feels like an extremely broad and very maleable definition of Mystery Box, but also one that's quite different from what I've come to understand the term to mean. Perhaps it's because I've long known the most quintessential example for it to be Lost's Hatch, which does play an important role in plot through its existence (before and after exploring it), though the Island in Lost is also a major Mystery Box. RTD's elements like "Bad Wolf" and even references to Saxon/Torchwood are more like Easter Eggs than a form of Mystery Box, which is actually a problem I'd had with his setup/payoff for overarching stories (I think the missing planets of RTD's final season were the best). I feel a Mystery Box by its nature presses you to wonder what the thing is (like the infamous scene from Seven), whereas these did quite the opposite: until you're actually confronted with them and their meaning, they don't seem important or worth thinking about. Moffatt seemed to lean more heavily on things I'd ascribe more to the "Mystery Box" title, including Trenzalore, the Crack in the Wall, etc. I suppose one main issue I have with the definition given in the video is the role the Mystery Box can play within a story's plot: I believe that is entirely immaterial in identifying a Mystery Box - actually, scratch that, I think a proper Mystery Box is linked into the plot (and best linked to the characters), otherwise it's just an Easter Egg, though it does not need to be the key to a single season arc (it could be a multi-episode arc like Lost's Hatch or whole series arc like Lost's Island), nor does its resolution need to be the conclusion of an arc (though it does make sense to tie it into such, given how they should innately tie into the plot). In that same vein, I'd argue the Flux itself was a Mystery Box (albeit a minimally mysterious one that is resolved reasonably quickly) or the tunnels that aren't explained until late in that miniseries, but they are both too minor because the stories weren't interested in prodding viewers with "what do you think these are and what do you think should be done about them?"
This substantial quibble about terminology aside, I am not going to attack your feelings about these plot hooks/Easter Egg mysteries, though I will say it's really easy to get tired of plot hooks if you essentially flag any unknown thing that might matter later - since things like RTD's don't really pressure you to try to solve them until you're being given the answers, it also means you run into problems of misidentifying things as Mystery Boxes that aren't or identifying them post-hoc, both of which feel antithetical to the concept.
Though a gained a new appreciation of the tragedy of Donna's fate in Journey's End mostly through you, my dislike of it was that it was yet ANOTHER fake out 'death' built up over several episodes like Rose's was in Series 2.
Saxon is nice world building and we kinda know that he's going to be the big bad. The cracks actually has the worst payoff because we never find out why the Tardis explodes. Bad Wolf is just in your face annoying and meaningless. The impossible girl does give The Doctor hope after repeatedly losing companions and I kind of like that Missy was also involved in making them meet. The planets disappearing is nice and subtle and would be my fav but the Missy box doesn't outstay it's welcome and it's got Michelle Gomez in it.
We disagree about a lot of this, but I still really appreciate your point of view. Personally, I've always loved Bad Wolf (but that does have the benefit of great nostalgia, having first aired when I was 9) and I also really love the fact that the hybrid doesn't actually matter and that the "ooh what's in the mystery box" is diffused with "hah! this is actually about characters and relationships". We also greatly disagree about Hell Bent, though, so it doesn't surprise me we disagree about that! Still strongly agree about series 10, though, it's one of my absolute favourites ever.
i mean if the time lords’ leading theory about the hybrid is that it’s a hybrid between daleks and time lords, why wouldn’t they be scared of it?
The working title for 'The Power of Three'.
I do like the mystery box format but I agree it can get tiresome maybe they should give it a rest for a while
Honestly, EVEN OPEN ENDED QUESTIONS can be good. Some fantastic endings revolve around an unanswered question.
The Hybrid can't even do that xD
34:34 so you did answer my question lol I mean I just love guessing and theorizing so I love the mystery box when done well.
Obviously the worst of these was the timeless child but I’m glad it’s something being given weight with Ncuti. Something that big needs something to be given an emotional weight to it.
moffat was defo trying to be clever by not answering what the hybrid is and in doing that he ruined the whole thing. it's a total letdown and thinking back on it I'm angry that it even was included because it's a waste of time! but really, the fact that new who has been attempting to substitute actual overarching storylines with mystery boxes and quite frankly that's not good writing to keep doing it over and over again
I actually liked the "Bad Woolf" mystery box. It was very interesting for me tbh... I love the prep talk in the end
Ok the vault is fine, with the big personal proböem, that the person in the vault is way more interesting to explorecthsn the vault, missys possible redemption, is whAts interestibg,notca played up twist.
7:19 so you want something to come along every now and then, through out the series and move the plot along some how? I obviously haven’t finished the video yet… but is that what the difference between a mystery box and a non box mystery?
I wonder if the Mystery Box aspect is to encourage rewatching? I feel like a lot of those might be better on the rewatch, since now you know the reference and know what you're building toward?
Happy holidays
I think one of the fundamental issues with arcs within an episodic structure in Doctor Who is that there are only so many ways you can do an arc in a show like Doctor Who - When the protagonist can go anywhere and anywhen at any time, where's the dramatic drive of an arc? The villain just stole the MacGuffin that means they can destroy the universe. OK, cool, how about we go visit this cool historic figure or have an adventure in space along the way, as long as we don't go past that event happening, it will wait, time travel means we can go any distance in zero time. By the scenic route if we want to. Hell, the earliest time I can think of Doctor Who did any sort of arc - The Key To Time - it explicitly points this out, by having the Doctor decide to take a fishing break at the start of one of the stories. And if they go full serialization - Every season is a Flux or more serialized than that - that introduces the bigger problem, for me, of dropping the smaller scale stories. How do you fit a Can You Hear Me or a Midnight in if everything has to contribute towards the ongoing story?
I think the mystery box winds up getting used so much with Who specifically because an ongoing enigma that can be used to string a season together and reveal it in something that gives the audience a sense of 'yes this was a connected thing' without the audience going "Well, yeah, but the Doctor has a time machine. They can do any number of things before resolving the issue at hand." Would I prefer Doctor Who went full episodic (or, as per the classic series, series of serials?) Probably. Am I going to complain about mystery boxes? No, because that risks the show losing its Midnights, it's Can You Hear Me's, it's Blinks - Stuff that can't exist if the show is committing to a serial since regular arcs don't really work when the protagonist has a time machine, and the two types of 'arc' that actually make sense for Doctor Who due to the time machine are Scavenger Hunts (Especially if you imply or show the Doctor went places outside of the hunt) and Mystery Boxes - Stuff where the removal of the time crunch doesn't necessarily remove the dramatic tension, where you can fit in the more intimate stories where the stakes are a single coach trip, a single family, a single person because why wouldn't Bad Wolf, bees going missing, or one of the seven seals of transcendental rice pudding pop up there as easily as in the middle of a battle where if it goes wrong threatens the very fabric of the universe, where there isn't actually an arc here it's just a way of connecting unconnected stories to a finale.
wanting consistency from a literal crack in time and space, in a show thats about a big ball of wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff is just odd to me... that was the least concern of mine
Arguably , Impossible Astronaut has a lot longer set up since it could be more at
aptly be called " Who is River and why is she important?" And that was set up way back in the Library two parter and was there in the background all through season 5 before becoming central to season 6 and lingered until Capaldi's Christmas special. It's also an example of what you said you liked with the macguffin being a character
Merry Christmas Vera and thanks for all the content this year.
As well as the ones mentioned for series 4 (Rose, the planets and the bees) there are also a few others that crop up in other subtler ways. You have "there's something on your back" which comes up a few times before Turn Left and is first said in The Fires of Pompeii. There's the DoctorDonna which recurs from Planet of the Ood onwards (and this ties to all the mentions of coincidental meetings between the Doctor and Donna and Wilf, etc.). The Medusa Cascade is mentioned in most stories and that is the eventual location which the Daleks have taken all the missing planets. There's also the foreshadowing of Donna's fate from Silence in the Library onwards (not really a mystery box but it comes up in at least three stories). So, you could argue there's up to seven mystery boxes in Series 4 😂
The thing I really like about the Mr Saxon arc is that it also stretches into Torchwood series 1. The vote Saxon posters appear in the background of that as well, so in a way it isn't just a Doctor Who mystery box. It's just something really fun to point out on rewatch
"Can someone tell me what the hell is going on?" will bethe mystery box phrase for series 15
Until you pointed it out I didn't really think of people as being mystery boxes...learn something every day.
Don't forget series 6's pregnant/not pregnant mystery box.
Series 9:
I thought I was going to be the only one not sure what the hybrid was...I know someone who was convinced that it was the Doctor because he's half human on his mother's side.
You're not the only one. Despite what some people claim, they never give a definitive answer, only a handful of possibilities. They deliberately leave it open but the possibilty of it being the Doctor and Clara is enough for the Doctor to act on it.
I likemore that the doctor is so often on earth, he became basically half human .
Because I know how much you'll love the question, did you see that we have a trailer tomorrow assuming that's what the tease meant
*sighs*
yes
You forgot the random cameos from Eye Patch lady in series 6
Just saw you on Stu's Livestream, have a great Christmas Vera!!!
I haven't finished the video, so forgive me if I'm jumping the gun here, but I don't think you can argue that series 3 fits your definition of a mystery box, because it _does_ progress the plot. First you get the subtle nods towards Saxon, then in Lazarus Experiment, his cronies make a direct appearance and it becomes obvious that they're targeting the Doctor. Then we get 42 where we see that Francine's calls to Martha are now being monitored, and we get the confirmation that Saxon is running for Prime Minister. And it sets us up to know that when Martha eventually does return to Earth, it won't be safe for her and that Saxon has been laying traps for the Doctor. And then The Sound of Drums retroactively reveals that the Master was behind the whole plot of The Lazarus Experiment too, because he was using Lazarus to create a device for his own use.
You also had him giving orders to the military in "The Runaway Bride" and being mentioned as somebody who claimed that aliens exist actually in "Smith & Jones." Right from the start, you know that he's somebody with a lot of influence before he starts "hiring" Martha's sister, funding Lazarus's technology and turning Francine against the Doctor.
The Hybrid is, always will be, and always was intended to be, the Master and the Cyberium
Um... citation needed on that, especially the "always intended to be" part.
Question for Big Finish fans: Are there elements of the Mystery Box in the Charley arc of the 8th Doctor's Main Range (Storm Warning to Neverland/Zagreus)? I know that the Doctor clarifies that saving Charley Pollard could/would disrupt the web of time in Storm Warning but I think the ripple effects it has on the wider universe and the web of time are spread through some of the other audios with varying degrees of focus (on my re-listen of them I've noticed that in 'Minuet in Hell' and 'Chimes of Midnight', the latter of which I listened to yesterday).
I'd say it doesn't count as a mystery box because it does have major effects on the plot over the course of the arc. The plot of Chimes of Midnight only happens becasuse of Charley's survival having an effect on the web of time, so it's not just a throwaway reference. Zagreus is the most dramatic part of the arc, but the fact that she's a temporal anomaly does matter in more stories than just Zagreus.
sggestion: stop tinking of them as 'mystery boxes' and think of them as 'finale trailers' seeded thorugh your season viewing experience.
I’d I think of them like that I’m going to say the same thing I said about the awkward mini trailers in the middle of Batman v. Superman: stop trying to sell me a future story and just tell me this one!
@@CouncilofGeeks true! Worth mentioning that I'm not a fan of trailers generally so...
The only one that at all intrigued me at all was bad wolf because it has an inherently ominous tone built into the words, and as part of the early stages of the reboot there was really no 'ugh... mystery box' feel to it at all. otherwise I agree... as a way to tease a finale it is weak, though I'll take that over chibs 'plots' any day
Flux had Division as a mystery box
A mystery box that didn't really get opened
The Division got introduced in series 12 with the Fugitive Doctor. Then it just kind of just gets wiped out through the course of Flux.
Thank you for the video and happy holidays, Vera!
I am not so against the "mystery box" story style, but I do agree that its overuse is making the Doctor Who TV series predictable. As you have said, a good "mystery box" is well integrated into the story, influencing and making direct impact on it. And although I will always prefer that the journey to it and answers of the "mystery box" are both satisfying, I expect that at least the former is good.
Despite I am hating the reveal of The Hybrid being a symbolic answer (the refusal of let it go and the urge of the Doctor and Clara wanting to stay together at all costs literally breaking the universe), I do love the journey until it, including all the fake out answers to it: Daleks with regeneration energy, and Ashildr rendered immortal by Mire technology.
But I would argue that the entire "Flux" mini-series was around "mystery boxes": we initially do not know what the Flux was and why it was destroying the universe (Tecteun created it in order to destroy the current universe and jump to the next one), what is the Division and why the Doctor worked for them, what and who are the Ravagers, and why the Time itself wants to destroy the Space.
I also find hard the "mystery box" format going away soon from Doctor Who because all the especulation created by it is used in order to promote viewership and engagement with the show. It is even more evident now in the Russel T. Davies' second run considering how we already do not know why the Doctor regenerated again into their tenth incarnation's body. At least that will probably be answered during the course of the three special episodes next year.
They literally have someone stand there and tell us in the episode what the hybrid is. Ask any 12 fans or most fans in general, they’ll give the same answer. It’s the Doctor and Clara. I mean no disrespect I love your content, but it’s becoming ridiculous to keep saying there is no answer or a universally agreed-upon answer when that’s just not true in any way... 😬
Scan the comments in this video and you still see disagreement.
But the doctor is metaphorical and theorized even literal, as half human. It makes little sense to have the hybrid bw 2 people, especially rhen the doctor is timelord and human in a way already.
@@CouncilofGeeks ? I just people disagreeing and arguing about all mystery boxes. That’s DW fans for you though. 😂
JJ Abrams has a lot to answer for. Like you say, he's responsible for the modern version of this. The key feature of the JJ Box is that he just sets up something mysterious without actually knowing what the answer is going to be and then he buggers off, leaving someone else to figure it out. Alias, Lost, Fringe all the way up to Force Awakens. When he wrote the hatch, the numbers and the black smoke into Lost; when he added the mystery box of Snoke, Rey's parents and where the First Order came from...he had no idea how they were going to turn out to be.
That's why I hate the way Moffat does it more than RTD. I feel like when RTD did it be at least had a plan each time but every time Moffat did it felt like the answer was just another question or really ill thought out.
I very much think it's HOW the box is done, I mean, look at loki, who is it, why, and what was the outcome was a huge pay off and dam good arc...
Doctor who does try and manages to sometimes pull it off, I mean it's better than the last 3 star wars film as they didn't have any arc planned and it falls flat.
Question is does doctor who need this arc? Looking at the older series they weren't any. But I think tv as a whole has turned into a huge big plot point mystery box theme to give us that rush, again look at loki, or marvel. It's all that rush the hero's winning, or not as in loki.. But Loki himself was the arc and his character development was great plus the pay off there made it feel great.
But back to doctor who, each episode is self contained mystery box style. who is the villain, what is their goal.....ect so it's hard to discount the larger arc style...
As for flux, come on, what is flux, what is the watch, who are they, what is the tunnels. iT ALL WAS A MYSTERY BOX.
My definition of a Mystery Box is a question that pulls readers/viewers through a story, but like Schrodinger's box, no one, including the writer, knows what's happening in the box until it's opened. Once the box is opened, either nothing is inside or what's inside negates as much of the previous narrative as it reinforces. It can't help but be a let down
Gravity Falls has the best mystery boxes because it gives you information in compelling ways, it pay off its mysteries well, and it doesn't hate it audience for being invested. Rick and Morty is the worst way to resolve a mystery box with shitty meta humor that complains about story structure and is basically saying "fuck you for being invested in lore". The question I have for Rick and Morty creators is if you don't want to make an overarching story, then why did you ended a season 1 episode with the plot twist an evil variant of Morty exist? Rick and Morty isn't good at being episodic either with oversaturating incest jokes. Monk is able to be good at being episodic with an overarching mystery because it uses it's overarching mystery of being the one case Monk can't solve to motivate Monk to solve the murder mystery of the episode. An overarching villain works better for Doctor Who than a mystery box. The Master being the overarching villian in the 3rd doctor era was fantastic.
I'm never a theorist when it comes to Doctor Who. I can only get seriously into theories for stories like A Song of Ice and Fire, where you can conceivably believe that the theories might be true. I can never get into Doctor Who theories because you can just tell that Moffat/Chibnall never intended for the story to be interpreted in these ways.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to one and all. May your festivities be filled with fun, joy, love and happiness may your food and drink be plentiful and may the New Year bring you good things.
I stopped deeply speculating around six months our from The Last Jedi, and it was the best decision I ever made.
I'm a little torn on this. As much as I don't like mystery boxes for everything you said, personally I would prefer that to a full arc. For me the stand alone episodes are most of the strongest episodes, so I really don't wanna lose that. A soft arc like Flux wouldn't be too bad to me, but I'd like it to be even softer. Village of the Angels is the only one that is separate enough of me and I imagine the 2 episodes we lost during the pandemic might have been as well.
Also, I feel like Moffat did the best and worse examples of most thing. It was a real roller coaster of an run.
29:19 Much like the mystery of Sherlock Holmes's miraculous escape from certain death on the mystery show about solving mysteries. And so that would mean, by the transitive property, that anybody who cares about the solution is a fujoshi or an Anderson, and who would want to be either of those?
I can understand the frustration, as I am also tired of tge format. Given doctor who shouldn't be this repetitive. However I have seen worse examples,
particularly hate when it's used as a plot device on shows. With characters to acting totally illogical and turn on each other , to move the mystery along , but you don't care for it after so many seasons of the same.
Only just now realising that the impossible girl and bad wolf are variants of the same thing
I think this may be one reason I really enjoyed Series 11; thanks for the discussion
The mystery box’s real identity is revealed…… it’s the Hybrid
Totally agree. It’s grating on me more the more it’s used.
What you call a "Mystery Box" is actually a MacGuffin. The Maltese Falcon. The Pulp Fiction briefcase. Rose Tyler and The Big Bad Wolf. This is classic story design. Usually the MacGuffin is not intended to be explained, or if it is explained, that explanation is SUPPOSED to be innocuous and rather mundane. Indiana Jones and the Ark of the Covenant or the Holy Grail or the Sankara Stones. These aren't meant to be anything more than an artifact for Indy to seek and the actual story is the journey. It's NEVER about the destination. In Lord of the Rings trilogy we have to get this MacGuffin to that place or the world as we know it ends. That's classic! Sorry. Can't side with you on this one. It's never about the MacGuffin! The Briefcase in Pulp Fiction is intentionally never explained. The alleged aliens in the trunk of Repo Man. It doesn't matter what's in the trunk. The story is everything that happens around the MacGuffin and not the MacGuffin itself.
Yes, but it depends on the execution of said MaGuffin.
As when it's done repeatedly with no change to the format gets annoying. Particularly ones where it makes the characters act illogical and turn on each other for the sake of moving the mystery forward.
The show blacklist had this problem, and it comes to a point where you don't care anymore.
There are 2 types of MacGuffins.
Alfred Hitchcock's MacGuffin - which is what you described.
George Lucas' MacGuffin - which you actually care about it and possibly overexplained. Death Star Plans in A New Hope and the Infinity Stones in the MCU.
Lucas MacGuffin is what normal people that aren't in film culture think of when they hear "MacGuffin".
The one ring is actually integral to the story, and lives. Its more of a plot device really. Thats rooted within the world.
@@marocat4749
The One Ring from LotR fits more of a Lucas MacGuffin than a Hitchcock MacGuffin.
This does make me wonder - if the mystery box went away, what will happen in Nu Who? I don’t understand what an arc is (correct me if I’m wrong, but is it a story that takes place over multiple episodes? I’m thinking of Classic Who, the Nu Who 2-3 parters/Flux, SJA and the last two televised series of Torchwood )
Yes, an arc is a story (or story elements) that takes place over multiple episodes, or even a season or more. It can be little hints or full blown stories that lead to the conclusion.
If they ditched the mystery box/arc for the season, they'd go back to self contained episodes and multi-parters.
@@Elwaves2925 thank you! :)
@@tokublwhovian No problem. Have a great Xmas, holiday or whatever you'r doing. 🙂
@@Elwaves2925 you too!
Other options for series arcs that aren’t mystery boxes include things like following the series ending villain as they build they’re plan, or putting a stronger focus on character relationships and growth in a way where how they’ve changed plays into the finale.
Merry Christmas, Vera!
I like the mystery boxes.
Merry christmas to you too
I’ll be the one to say it: the mystery box is lazy. It’s a get out of jail free card to indicate an overarching story without coming up with a way for there to be an overarching story that impacts each episode it is mentioned in meaningfully, regardless of whether said episode is set in the past, present, future, earth, distant planets, and possibly alternate dimensions.
I actually liked it with Clara, mainly because of how the internet took to it. I love coming up with theories for what is coming up in the future of my favorite TV shows, and here I had a huge community of people who did the same, so I could come up with theories, read other theories and then come up with new theories based on other people's theories. And also because I love Clara 😅
I suspect in general this format has more appeal to theorists. Which just isn’t the kind of fan I am.
I think davies did them right,or they are just cute references. Like saxton was pretty much intended to dunk on blaire and it , well the master as prime minister, was according to plan , and works.
Then bad wolf, whatever, donna and her importance did pay off, and thematic fitting for her. And torchwood, cute references. Possibly playing into the show torchwood.
I think moffat made that way too important and ambitious without an idea how to do it justice. And i think moffat , like the holes in time are fine, just then he has to go there again?! Like as big as stakes could be , they also were very personal and like journeys end, fore focus on donna and her hitting.
Like the consequences of rory being erased by the rift, or amys baby stolen, that are what really hit emotional and the consequences .
So in terms of citation for audiences taking to Hell Bent, it's appreciation index was 82, which actually higher than Heaven Sent's: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_Bent_(Doctor_Who)
I never remember what the Hybrid actually was supposed to be. I don't like being confused by a show as much as Moffat did it.