Timestamps by Andria with some of mine added Links for this episode 03:34 Research assistant position at FDA (pdf) 04:41 Support MicrobeTV with a Spike t-shirt (Vaccinated.us) 05:23 Breathless: THE SCIENTIFIC RACE TO DEFEAT A DEADLY VIRUS by David Quammen (Quammen will be on TWiV soon) 06:43 Holmes start in science and career 12:12 Comparing US, UK, and Australia 06:56 Ironically highschool teacher wouldn't teach evolution 15:01 SARS-Cov-2 15:10 How Zhang Yongzhen got the SARS2 genome sequence Original paper on new CoV in China that led to genome sequence release (Nature) 23:07 Novel 2019 coronavirus genome (Virological) 25:18 Zhang was in huge trouble with Chinese government 28:41 Screening of pre-pandemic lung samples. 29:25 Early concern about furin 29:30 Reporting on Fauci teleconference (USA Today) 30:18 RaTG13 causing lab leak speculation Furin cleavage sites 32:41 Conference call establishes SARS2 looks natural, not man-made 35:04 Pangolin sequence establishes features found in nature Proximal origins of SARS-CoV-2 (Virological and Nature versions) 37:57 Chinese government impeding SARS recognition blame game doesn't help 39:44 Bat coronaviruses at WAV published on GenBank from unpublished work on Sars1 43:26 Sequences have no precursor to Sars2. RA4991 no spike protein. 46:50 Publishing sequences on GenBank 48:55 Sampling in a mine in 2013 50:40 Early cases at Wuhan Institute of Virology 52:05 Jeffrey Sachs. EcoHealth project to insert FCS. Lack of evidence. FCS = furin cleavage site 53:55 Intelligence data 56:25 Animal Missing link 58:37 Why weren't wet markets closed after known SARS risk factor? 1:01:13 Wuhan A & B sequences from 2020 1:04:52 Sars1 ancestor sequences vs Sar2 1:06:42 Intermediate ancestor species candidates 1:09:47 Political fingerpointing 1:11:32 Early reports of Sars-Cov-2 in other countries 1:12:45 Early circulation in Wuhan. Adaptation? 1:15:50 Where should we be surveying? 1:18:00 Human-animal interface 1:22:00 Emergence as part of an ecosystem. Mapping the food web. 1:24:33 Human activity 1:27:15 Disturbance → Emergence events 1:32:05 Contribute to Microbe tv Audio Timestamps by Jolene. Thanks!
@@crytow5071 Early in 2020 Li Wenliang wasn’t practicing ophthalmology anymore. Iirc he volunteered to help with the surge a few weeks before getting sick. That being said SARS-CoV-2 later turned out to be capable of infecting retinal ganglion cells regardless of where the infection starts. Fun sidenote.
After investigations, he was given back credit, reporting procedure has been revised, and his family been compensated, the fact is the gov not know whats going on for the sickness at the beginning so what the dr reporting is treated as spreading rumors at that time, just update u this, as i know anti China media never tell u
This is awesome. Eds enthusiasm and passion for science is palpable. This could be the basis for Contagion 2. Thanks to TWIV for this, I'm 30 min in on on the edge of my seat.
Notice where Holmes sets the implied burden of proof bar for simply questioning whether a non-natural origin hypothesis is worth considering. His case continually returns to the idea that since there was no specific moment where direct irrefutable evidence was in plain view for all to see, that anything other than that is simply hot air. The transparent framework proffered here is telling. I would like to add fwiw however, I'm very much a fan of Vincent Racaniello and the entire TWiV team (however perspectives may diverge around this specific issue) and, like so many, found TWiV enormously informative and helpful from the outset of all this Covid business. So with sincere appreciation to the entire TWiV family.
Once you start seeing this kind of shilling for the very ridiculous natural origin theory and a guy like Eddie comes in with this absurd idea that we must promote sharing science with China, you quickly realize that this guy is either CIA or just a compromised actor that pretends to not know how the CCP operates. CCP does not share data unless it has very little value. They place a very high priority on Bioweapons and the CCP lab is in the WIV, but with the highest security that no foreigner is allowed. That's why they locked up the lab that was thought to be the origin. They don't care one bit to share their data on the C-19 GOF creation. They simply say they destroyed all lab data and animals and that's it. Go away now.
VR appears to be intentionally pushing the Fauci thesis. Most academics in this area depend on NIH grants so there is significant conflict of interest. Fauci had a public service position, yet the NIH is still hiding emails, and they will not disclose monies paid to Fauci by Big Pharma during the Covid timeframe. Criminal, at best!
Well, I have to admit this has changed my opinion. Firstly, I was natural origin, but with the ‘funding trail’ I moved to a lab leak hypothesis as being more likely. I am more of a natural origin once again. The problem as I see it now is that even when/if the ‘real origin’ is ever found, I doubt if many people will ever change their current mind/position.
0% evidence for a natural origin, absolutely nothing has been found and never will. Do you really expect Eddie Holmes who worked in Wuhan Institute of Virology to admit the truth?
Yes this one was good and also their previous episodes 762 on SARS CoV2 origins with Robert Garry and 760 on SARS-CoV-2 origins with Peter Daszak, Thea Kolsen Fischer, Marion Koopmans
I would be willing to change my opinion if there was any evidence whatsoever that this was a natural event which there is not these guys are just nothing but bullshitters trying to not be held responsible for a Holocaust. In all honesty I suppose I wouldn't want to be blamed for killing six million people either.
Loved the pun with Biblical roots in Genesis, whether it was intentional or not. Creationist teacher and adult specialist researcher declaring ‘evolution as forbidden fruit’ (when a teenage student).
An extremely valuable interview for debunking/illuminating the common misconceptions, politicization and conspiracy theories surrounding proximal origin and early pandemic responses that flourished in a vacuum of knowledge.
What an incredible journey through the early to present day history of this pandemic, through the lives of scientists and doctors, told by a primary source.
One of the best TWIVs, thanks Vincent! A lot of these can be very inside baseball, but this episode was topical, on point, and wrapped up a lot of pertinent information. Probably won’t change any conspiracy nut minds, seemingly nothing can, but nonetheless excellent! I’m nearly your age and I’ve been debunking BS my entire life, and while I still think it’s worthwhile, it remains a perpetual battle. I still think getting Debunk the Funk’s creator on would be great. I’ll give him a comment too to urge him to make the time, as he’s busy getting a doctorate with a family to care for as well. Thanks again Vincent!
very interesting talk and insight into the process of scientific publication. I especially liked insights into the issues of politics in journals and governments in deciding what is published and also the issues with 'virus hunting' in wildlife populations for predicting zoonotic outbreaks thanks all for this talk
it is more likely that as before data is hidden as it would embarrass certain officials. This happened under Mao when local officials reported false data as they were frightened that they would be blamed. Losing face is one of the greatest shame and crimes a Chinese can do.
Wow, another amazing, can-only-find-it-here video interview. Thanks so much for this! It should be required viewing for every media reporter who wants to write about the pandemic.
Does anyone remember the accession number for the ~180 sarbecovirus sequences that were made available on GenBank in 2022? I remember seeing it, but I lost it.
This is another great episode! Thanks, Vincent for bringing all these intelligent and open-minded scientists, such Eddie Holmes, to share their experiences and point of view with us.
So happy to get Eddie's ecosphere view on viro-evolution and movement. Excellent discussion and I hope accessible to many other folk. Thanks a million😁
Jeffrey Sachs lead the Harvard team that advised Gorbachev and Yeltsin during the transition from commanded economy to market economy. The IMF refused to help most eastern block countries with a few exceptions. Prof. Sachs later learned the then Secretary of State Dick Cheney blocked the IMF from helping those countries because of the PNAC. From 1991 to 2001, the excess deaths in Russia (base 1991) are estimate to be between 2.5 to 3 million (in the adult population). In the whole former USSR it's estimated to be between 3 and 7 million people. Jeffrey Sachs was a neo-liberal/chock doctrine economist who, after witnessing the hell in the 1990s Russia, turned Keynesian. Prof. Sachs does work in China and with the UN to reduce poverty around the world - he has the contacts in China and knows how the poorest people in the poorest places on Earth live. Here's a cautionary tale: almost all Nuclear Power Plants around the world are based on a model designed for submarines. Submarines used a 60MW unit but to make the units comercially viable for civilian use they would need to be at least 10x greater and the 1GW unit was the prefered one. The engineer who designed the submarine unit allerted GE and Westinghouse such large units would be unsafe since in case of catastrophic failure it would be impossible to contain the fuel - unlike the 60MW unit that could be safely contained in such case. GE and Westinghouse, however, had already sold a lot of units - very expensive Power Plants that take 20 years to be completed. Then one day a wave comes and hits the coast of Japan ...
The discussion did not review the idea that there was not full transparency along the way (which is what science is about). The ideas that are important that were not covered in depth is also interesting, i.e. the MSH3 patent filed by Moderna in 2016 and the amount of interest there has ALWAYS been in FCS and there ability to exploit them. There has been patent work in this area back in 2012. Lots of labs looked at this area. This was likely not deliberate, agreed, to to rule out an accident is not transparent or honest. LOTS of solid evidence for an accident. The bats in Laos (beyond Ratg13) are still a less than 97% match, not significant!!!! HOW DID THE FSC GET THERE, 1 in 3 trillion chance of natural evolution / mutation, more likely a lab accident IMO. They took down the open access database, THEY DID NOT PUBLISH OR SHARE EVERYTHING, there is a villain in there somewhere :-) FOGOT A 4 YEAR EMBARGO, wow and these folks are working with dangerous virus research "suppressed mode" NO TRANSPARENCY... Too much bias in this discussion to be good science.
Hospital 'referrals' in China: I live in Changsha, 300km S of Wuhan, since 2014. GPs do not exist. If you have a health issue you go to the outpatients section of the nearest hospital. Sure it has some drawbacks and you don't have a medic how knows your medical history. But if you need some blood tests, you get them in 30 minutes. If you need a CT scan it's about an hour. Etc etc. Lots of delays normal in Western hospitals just never happen.
1:12:00 - Not spreading further in Europe would be explained by it being a new spillover that was not yet well adapted to spread from human to human, or population density (Codogno in Lombardy has a population of 15,789 while Wuhan is over ten million). The euro specific mutation does sound more like contamination, but there was also serological data. There are multiple papers that are all ambiguous. We need a journal that publishes negative results, if the few ambiguous papers showing it in Europe in 2019 are part of a set containing a hundred definitive negatives then they're nothing, but if only a dozen studies were done and a handful are ambiguous that's something important to keep investigating. No evidence elsewhere definitely doesn't eliminate a lot of places, e.g. we'll definitely never know if it was Turkmenistan or North Korea, both still claiming zero cases even now.
I don't think it is too unusual for people to be angry at the doctor when they do not understand these kinds of sicknesses. I wish it would rain in Colorado, USA. Maybe these viruses are around a long time and weather or something causes it to spread like wildfire.
The market was a later but bigger outbreak. The first reports of a serious respiratory ailments were occurring in September. The CCP said it was an American that brought it to China at their military games in Guangdong.
56:00 If it came from a lab, the speaker claims, the odds of finding it in the market next door are infinitesimal. What? If you let it out of a lab in any given city, the first thing you'd do is slather it all over the nearest scapegoat, scape-bat, or what have you. Especially if you're fairly sure it has a low infection fatality rate. Especially because it will be good for grant-getting, vaccination-mandating, and other things that support your guild. Let's just say the speaker isn't trying his hardest to make sense. It would be insulting, prematurely, to use any other of the available explanations.
How is it premature? The data he's talking about has been available for 2 years. It seems like you have your pet explanation for where the pandemic originated and aren't willing to consider what he's saying could be true
35:05 "My colleagues at the University of Hong Kong emailed me and said I've got this sequence of a pangolin, it's kind of close...suddenly the pangolin, the same sequence, more or less is there...there it is in nature...that must be natural.
Anyone know the procedures with submissions and acceptance/ publishing with GenBank? One thing that puzzled me with Zhang et al. SARS-CoV-2 sequences on GenBank were the date stamps. GenBank have submission date 5 Jan 2020 (which was the date when the sequencing was completed, not the sample date of collection), but published by GenBank on the 12 Jan 2020 (first version). Was there a delay by GenBank in publishing the sequence, or? Ref: Wuhan seafood market pneumonia virus isolate Wuhan-Hu-1, complete genome GenBank: MN908947.1
It is explained here (pp 46 to 51). Ref: Controversies around SARS-CoV-2 origin (part 2) First genome sequences: rush and embargo The sequence was under embargo at GenBank. The processing at that time was manual (it is now an automated process, so submissions can be released within hours). A few days after submission, the news about a new virus spurred the GenBank staff to search for recent submissions that may be related to the outbreak so that their processing could be prioritized. Following that, the submitter was requested to review the entry before being published. This all took nearly a week.
@@gribbler1695 Thank you (much appreciated). So it was probably just a processing issue. But I wonder if Eddie was aware that his colleagues submitted the sequences to GenBank on the 5th Jan? Note, after the virological website provided the sequences on the 11th Jan, 3 other Chinese labs provided SARS-CoV-2 sequences to GISAID (12 Jan). In hindsight, GISAID might have been a quicker route.
@@kazoz3520 Sidenote: by November 2019, NCMI was already warning the President that this virus had pandemic potential. I’d be surprised if someone hadn’t sequenced it by then already. Good luck trying to get that data though.
@@patriciagiles5833 I think he might be referring to how Eddie Holmes states that the redacted parts were just normal scientific discussions. Presumably the US government wouldn't need to censor that for national security....right?
@@Serg897 It's up to the individual government agencies to make that call. P.S. When I was working as an assistant investigative journalist, I made FOIA requests for records all the time. Occasionally, I compared unredacted records side by side to redacted versions. Some of the redacted data in those documents seemed benign, but at the time was likely sensitive information. In this case, it makes sense for security reasons a/o to protect the identities of sources due the concern of biological weapons release and general mistrust of Chinese government. I'm only speculating here. As the person above said, redactions also protect sources and their testimonies especially during investigations.
Oh those were the days. It's very nostalgic to revisit the hysteria of the times. This Holmes guy seems to be typical of the scientific establishment, throwing caution to the wind, in favour of u-turning speculation on the fly..What scared them so much?.
China-compromised gain-of-function cover-up cabal. Trying to back away from the grenade: "It was just a paper!" From Jeremy Farrar's book: " 'Fuck, this is bad,' was Eddie's first reaction to Kristian's observations. His second reaction was to call me on the burner phone. "
It was a regular standard paper, not a 'papal decree' as Eddie put it. Try listening to what he said instead of your fever dreams, though I can barely decipher what you are saying. Why people are upovoting you I can't understand. People who know nothing about the science I suppose. The lab leak theory is dead, 100% and of no scientific interest and is a purely cultural or politcal matter now.
He made it clear where RaTG13 comes into the picture. A pangolin link cannot be ruled out. Ref: SARS-CoV-2-related pangolin coronavirus exhibits similar infection characteristics to SARS-CoV-2 and direct contact transmissibility in hamsters (iScience, June 17, 2022) Ref: Pangolins and the origin of SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus Virology blog (Racaniello, Feb 2020)
@@gribbler1695 cannot be ruled out is different from being anywhere close to being well supported by the evidence, and he never admits his conflict of interest
The only ppl who didn’t bungle the communications was a Chinese language newspaper published from and for San Francisco Chinatown. The journalist(s) responsible for the SF Chinatown articles knew the virus circulating in Wuhan and the risk to San Franciscans was of hugest concern. And that time was of the essence because during the upcoming Lunar New Year holiday period there would be millions of people both coming from and going to Wuhan and that there was highest probability that the virus would be moving out of Wuhan bo🎉h China-wide and internationally with the Lunar New Year travelers. Thus, before the first COVID 19 cases started popping up in the United States, San Francisco Chinatown (1) Knew about the disease in Wuhan and as a result of the Chinatown newspaper’s work, the pandemic never gained a foothold in San Francisco’s Chinatown despite the early cases and COVID fatalities in Silicon Valley (Santa Clara) and the Seattle area. By the early weeks of March 2020, the disease was already spreading in the greater San Francisco Bay Area - a relative of this writer had contracted the disease by the first week of March. That person believes they contracted it during a ride on the BART public train system, between San Francisco and their office in Silicon Valley.
@@roncarlin3209 Yes, a possible explanation for so many people getting exposed and not getting sick might be explained by gastroenterologist Sabine Hasan. Check out what she discovered about C-19 and gut bacteria.
Vincent et al, you guys need to have your names on your screens at all times for people who don't know your faces or are not as familiar with your podcast host lineup. 😊
A lot of what really smells like self-serving revisionist history. Both interviewer and guest here I'm sure had no problem with the tech censorship of any discussion of a lab leak, despite strong evidence from the FOIA emails this is something they themselves took very seriously.
@@davoforrest5 Must you be so naïve? The emails were so heavily redacted and had to be repeatedly requested to see what they were hiding. And Eddie Holmes says when those emails are revealed, they will show Fauci and Collins were only interested in the science. Well they have been revealed and that truth is that Fauci and Collins were collaborating on a cover up. They revealed that they were in fact funding and promoting GOF research through Eco Health Alliance and the WIV was their main research lab. They tasked a group of lackeys to write the spurious letter in the Lancet to promote a natural origin cover story and here we are again. Eddie Holmes asks over and over where is the data and fails to mention what happened to the the data and the lab animals in the WIV. This man is such a fraud it's so obvious. The WIV was immediately locked down and all data and animals were allegedly destroyed . Eddie knows this and has the gall to ask "where's the evidence"? Well why doesn't he go cozy up to the Bat Woman and see if she will fess up? This guest is so full of BS, he even pleads for not damaging the relationship with China by demanding answers. This guest pretends he doesn't know how a communist country operates. He doesn't know that the WIV also has a top secret bioweapons lab that no foreigner is allowed to even see. The idea that this guest says how important it is to be sharing scientific data with China is completely ignorant on the way a communist government works. China has a declared goal to dominate the world and any fool who thinks they can trust a communist country to collaborate on bioweapons is insane.
Thank you for so clearly explaining how all those silly conspiracy theories were so completely disproven back in January 2020 😦 so very sad that so many of them are still going strong built on a web of willful ignorance 😒 great chat TWIV! 💜
People like to blame bad things that happen on those they don't like. Like the black death being blamed on Jews poisoning the wells all those centuries ago. The only virus being spread deliberately is the hate spread by those who get a kick out of accusing others. It's called "projection".
. . . is the Department of Energy’s role in investigating a viruses origin? or maybe what does a “low confidence” actually mean to the DoE and why not say “we don’t know” instead?
@roncarlin3209 it doesn't matter to this crowd. This is a pro big pharma crowd, they know which side to take. Did you catch their show where they boasted about the Atlantic Magazine article on the alleged Chinese CDC website posted DNA samples from the Hunan Market area before it was all torched? You got to watch it, it's hilarious. Shameless shills.
It has aged well as of Thursday, June 13, 2024 . There is zero evidence of a lab leak and the theory is officially dead. Partly due to some good science. Much of it explained above by Eddie, or did you not really listen.
@@minRef A fantasied trumplican midterm landslide leading to public execution of public servants who did their best to mitigate a healthcare disaster despite the bunglathon of TFG. Or something. I'm not privy to the actual contents of OP's mind.
As an English speaker from North America, the term "cock-up" (as in, "cock-up is usually a more likely explanation than conspiracy") tends to stand out to me. Oddly enough, the last time I heard that expression was in the context of the BBC trying to explain the remarkable coincidence of one of their correspondents announcing the total collapse of Building 7 at the World Trade Center in New York City on the afternoon of September 11, 2001 twenty minutes before it actually happened. But of course, the laws of probability have nothing to do with "real" science...
Will you leave Australia? (12,30 -1330) I think Eddie like all of us will want to stay where his grandchildren are. A fter all grandparenting is an evolutionary thing %^)
Once people develop faith in science the priests will command the flock into accepting God's will. It's not a blame game - it's criminal and/or civil responsibility. If there's nothing important in the redacted parts then unredact it. The fact the cleavage points are unusual proofs nothing, btw - from a logical point of view. Remember around 18 million people died and the infections are causing long lasting damage to people's bodies. My 2 brothers and my mom had COVID-19 (omicron) and we all should hope none of those who were infected and survived have no long lasting problem that will end up shortening their lives. One nice thing in the Australian public health system is the use of Blcokchain to keep the medical records - such technology should be used to all types of document archival.
1:31:52 "yeah but that's our fault then" uh no, you guys are trying and people seem proud of their ignorance and unwilling to change it. and this pride in ignorance is not a new phenomenon!
Well, he's good enough of a liar for this TWIV show. He fits right in with this group. Just for a more balanced view, listen to Dr. Robert Redfield's recent appearance on The Rising.
@@cantweallgetalong why would anyone place more value on Redfields opinion when he is unaware that the new data (re: raccoon dog) is publicly available on Zenodo? He also fails to address the best evidence yet (the presence of 2 substrains at the wet market). Bottom line is we will never know. Dismissing one of the world's top evolutionary virologists, because you find his work contradicts your preconceived ideas, smells a little of confirmation bias.
@@Costa_Conn You probably want to listen to Dr. Robert Redfield's interview on The Rising show before you make incorrect assumptions. His opinion offers an insiders view of what occurred and the misleading information he was given from the Chinese CDC director Dr Goa and Dr. Fauci and Dr. Collins. He goes into a very logical explanation of his different opinion on the incoming information and lays out why he holds those opinions. He even admits his own mistakes and realized how he was being left out of the loop intentionally, because he was not buying into the manipulated C-19 NIH news releases. If you only allow yourself to be exposed to one side of the discussion, you will make uniformed comments like you did above. This show routinely provides the least likely to be correct information and I watch it because I believe in hearing from as many sources as possible. The Raccoon dog story discussed on this show was another perfect example of the reason why I have such a low opinion of this show. Just imagine if Dr. Redfield referred us to a story in a magazine known for publishing tabloid style stories and so spurious that the authors themselves repeatedly disqualify the evidence as unverifiable and not conclusive and not able to be published in a peer reviewed journal? Would this show report on it as proof, if it suggested that C-19 origin was a lab leak?
great conversation. They have demystified a lot of nonsense concerning the origins of the current pandemic. You just have to get through 15-20 minutes of navel-gazing before we get to the "beef."
@@Costa_Conn I know I've tried with journal articles, data, etc. from published papers .. This RUclips page does not allow many of my comments to be published publicly. (I'm in the research sciences and have been for over 20 years). As much as I've seen the good of TWiV over the last few years, I've come to realize that a true scientific discussion is not allowed here. It's a pity that it's not - goes against all the principles of science I've come to love.
Timestamps by Andria with some of mine added
Links for this episode
03:34 Research assistant position at FDA (pdf)
04:41 Support MicrobeTV with a Spike t-shirt (Vaccinated.us)
05:23 Breathless: THE SCIENTIFIC RACE TO DEFEAT A DEADLY VIRUS by David Quammen
(Quammen will be on TWiV soon)
06:43 Holmes start in science and career
12:12 Comparing US, UK, and Australia
06:56 Ironically highschool teacher wouldn't teach evolution
15:01 SARS-Cov-2
15:10 How Zhang Yongzhen got the SARS2 genome sequence
Original paper on new CoV in China that led to genome sequence release (Nature)
23:07 Novel 2019 coronavirus genome (Virological)
25:18 Zhang was in huge trouble with Chinese government
28:41 Screening of pre-pandemic lung samples.
29:25 Early concern about furin
29:30 Reporting on Fauci teleconference (USA Today)
30:18 RaTG13 causing lab leak speculation
Furin cleavage sites
32:41 Conference call establishes SARS2 looks natural, not man-made
35:04 Pangolin sequence establishes features found in nature
Proximal origins of SARS-CoV-2 (Virological and Nature versions)
37:57 Chinese government impeding SARS recognition
blame game doesn't help
39:44 Bat coronaviruses at WAV published on GenBank from unpublished work on Sars1
43:26 Sequences have no precursor to Sars2. RA4991 no spike protein.
46:50 Publishing sequences on GenBank
48:55 Sampling in a mine in 2013
50:40 Early cases at Wuhan Institute of Virology
52:05 Jeffrey Sachs. EcoHealth project to insert FCS. Lack of evidence.
FCS = furin cleavage site
53:55 Intelligence data
56:25 Animal Missing link
58:37 Why weren't wet markets closed after known SARS risk factor?
1:01:13 Wuhan A & B sequences from 2020
1:04:52 Sars1 ancestor sequences vs Sar2
1:06:42 Intermediate ancestor species candidates
1:09:47 Political fingerpointing
1:11:32 Early reports of Sars-Cov-2 in other countries
1:12:45 Early circulation in Wuhan. Adaptation?
1:15:50 Where should we be surveying?
1:18:00 Human-animal interface
1:22:00 Emergence as part of an ecosystem. Mapping the food web.
1:24:33 Human activity
1:27:15 Disturbance → Emergence events
1:32:05 Contribute to Microbe tv
Audio Timestamps by Jolene. Thanks!
That Dr. from China is a true hero from my point of view. He should be praised, not punished!
I cried when the Chinese eye Dr. Died.
People don't breathe with their eyes.
@@crytow5071 But, you can be infected when droplets, containing virions, hit your eye, especially is large amounts.
@@crytow5071 Early in 2020 Li Wenliang wasn’t practicing ophthalmology anymore. Iirc he volunteered to help with the surge a few weeks before getting sick.
That being said SARS-CoV-2 later turned out to be capable of infecting retinal ganglion cells regardless of where the infection starts. Fun sidenote.
After investigations, he was given back credit, reporting procedure has been revised, and his family been compensated, the fact is the gov not know whats going on for the sickness at the beginning so what the dr reporting is treated as spreading rumors at that time, just update u this, as i know anti China media never tell u
Wow. It is just amazing to be part of such a historical moment for humanity. Homer Simpson would be proud.
( 05:40 has the Homer Simpson look-alike reference)
This is awesome. Eds enthusiasm and passion for science is palpable. This could be the basis for Contagion 2. Thanks to TWIV for this, I'm 30 min in on on the edge of my seat.
35:37 "I thought it might have been 80/20 at some point but that phase last like 3 days, and then very quickly I changed my mind, bc of the data."
Notice where Holmes sets the implied burden of proof bar for simply questioning whether a non-natural origin hypothesis is worth considering. His case continually returns to the idea that since there was no specific moment where direct irrefutable evidence was in plain view for all to see, that anything other than that is simply hot air. The transparent framework proffered here is telling.
I would like to add fwiw however, I'm very much a fan of Vincent Racaniello and the entire TWiV team (however perspectives may diverge around this specific issue) and, like so many, found TWiV enormously informative and helpful from the outset of all this Covid business.
So with sincere appreciation to the entire TWiV family.
Once you start seeing this kind of shilling for the very ridiculous natural origin theory and a guy like Eddie comes in with this absurd idea that we must promote sharing science with China, you quickly realize that this guy is either CIA or just a compromised actor that pretends to not know how the CCP operates. CCP does not share data unless it has very little value. They place a very high priority on Bioweapons and the CCP lab is in the WIV, but with the highest security that no foreigner is allowed. That's why they locked up the lab that was thought to be the origin. They don't care one bit to share their data on the C-19 GOF creation. They simply say they destroyed all lab data and animals and that's it. Go away now.
VR appears to be intentionally pushing the Fauci thesis. Most academics in this area depend on NIH grants so there is significant conflict of interest. Fauci had a public service position, yet the NIH is still hiding emails, and they will not disclose monies paid to Fauci by Big Pharma during the Covid timeframe. Criminal, at best!
Great interview Vincent, please have Eddie back!!!
still do not explain why the first two patients had no connection to the market. the Hunan wet market is closed while it is being rebuilt.
Episodes with invited guests are always good - that one was great!
Well, I have to admit this has changed my opinion. Firstly, I was natural origin, but with the ‘funding trail’ I moved to a lab leak hypothesis as being more likely. I am more of a natural origin once again. The problem as I see it now is that even when/if the ‘real origin’ is ever found, I doubt if many people will ever change their current mind/position.
0% evidence for a natural origin, absolutely nothing has been found and never will.
Do you really expect Eddie Holmes who worked in Wuhan Institute of Virology to admit the truth?
Yes this one was good and also their previous episodes 762 on SARS CoV2 origins with Robert Garry and 760 on SARS-CoV-2 origins with Peter Daszak, Thea Kolsen Fischer, Marion Koopmans
I would be willing to change my opinion if there was any evidence whatsoever that this was a natural event which there is not these guys are just nothing but bullshitters trying to not be held responsible for a Holocaust. In all honesty I suppose I wouldn't want to be blamed for killing six million people either.
Eddie you're never getting my emails from the University homes
Listen to some of the arguments about a lab leak put forth by Dr. Steven Quay; they are backed by data!
Loved the pun with Biblical roots in Genesis, whether it was intentional or not. Creationist teacher and adult specialist researcher declaring ‘evolution as forbidden fruit’ (when a teenage student).
5 star presentation. Excellent Vincent.
An extremely valuable interview for debunking/illuminating the common misconceptions, politicization and conspiracy theories surrounding proximal origin and early pandemic responses that flourished in a vacuum of knowledge.
What an incredible journey through the early to present day history of this pandemic, through the lives of scientists and doctors, told by a primary source.
Wow, one of the best twiv's yet
Thanks for that...Great fun interview. Insanely informative
One of the best TWIVs, thanks Vincent! A lot of these can be very inside baseball, but this episode was topical, on point, and wrapped up a lot of pertinent information. Probably won’t change any conspiracy nut minds, seemingly nothing can, but nonetheless excellent! I’m nearly your age and I’ve been debunking BS my entire life, and while I still think it’s worthwhile, it remains a perpetual battle. I still think getting Debunk the Funk’s creator on would be great. I’ll give him a comment too to urge him to make the time, as he’s busy getting a doctorate with a family to care for as well. Thanks again Vincent!
very interesting talk and insight into the process of scientific publication.
I especially liked insights into the issues of politics in journals and governments in deciding what is published
and also the issues with 'virus hunting' in wildlife populations for predicting zoonotic outbreaks
thanks all for this talk
Such a great episode omg!!
Great one folks...thanks for the video.
The tune they use for the intro and outro gives me a mental image of Vincent Racaniello dancing.
it is more likely that as before data is hidden as it would embarrass certain officials. This happened under Mao when local officials reported false data as they were frightened that they would be blamed. Losing face is one of the greatest shame and crimes a Chinese can do.
Wow, another amazing, can-only-find-it-here video interview. Thanks so much for this! It should be required viewing for every media reporter who wants to write about the pandemic.
I feel obfuscated.
Loved this. TY, Vincent. 😊
Does anyone remember the accession number for the ~180 sarbecovirus sequences that were made available on GenBank in 2022? I remember seeing it, but I lost it.
This is another great episode! Thanks, Vincent for bringing all these intelligent and open-minded scientists, such Eddie Holmes, to share their experiences and point of view with us.
So happy to get Eddie's ecosphere view on viro-evolution and movement. Excellent discussion and I hope accessible to many other folk. Thanks a million😁
Thanks for this interview Vincent, very interesting
Jeffrey Sachs lead the Harvard team that advised Gorbachev and Yeltsin during the transition from commanded economy to market economy. The IMF refused to help most eastern block countries with a few exceptions. Prof. Sachs later learned the then Secretary of State Dick Cheney blocked the IMF from helping those countries because of the PNAC. From 1991 to 2001, the excess deaths in Russia (base 1991) are estimate to be between 2.5 to 3 million (in the adult population). In the whole former USSR it's estimated to be between 3 and 7 million people. Jeffrey Sachs was a neo-liberal/chock doctrine economist who, after witnessing the hell in the 1990s Russia, turned Keynesian. Prof. Sachs does work in China and with the UN to reduce poverty around the world - he has the contacts in China and knows how the poorest people in the poorest places on Earth live.
Here's a cautionary tale: almost all Nuclear Power Plants around the world are based on a model designed for submarines. Submarines used a 60MW unit but to make the units comercially viable for civilian use they would need to be at least 10x greater and the 1GW unit was the prefered one. The engineer who designed the submarine unit allerted GE and Westinghouse such large units would be unsafe since in case of catastrophic failure it would be impossible to contain the fuel - unlike the 60MW unit that could be safely contained in such case. GE and Westinghouse, however, had already sold a lot of units - very expensive Power Plants that take 20 years to be completed. Then one day a wave comes and hits the coast of Japan ...
The discussion did not review the idea that there was not full transparency along the way (which is what science is about). The ideas that are important that were not covered in depth is also interesting, i.e. the MSH3 patent filed by Moderna in 2016 and the amount of interest there has ALWAYS been in FCS and there ability to exploit them. There has been patent work in this area back in 2012. Lots of labs looked at this area. This was likely not deliberate, agreed, to to rule out an accident is not transparent or honest. LOTS of solid evidence for an accident. The bats in Laos (beyond Ratg13) are still a less than 97% match, not significant!!!! HOW DID THE FSC GET THERE, 1 in 3 trillion chance of natural evolution / mutation, more likely a lab accident IMO. They took down the open access database, THEY DID NOT PUBLISH OR SHARE EVERYTHING, there is a villain in there somewhere :-) FOGOT A 4 YEAR EMBARGO, wow and these folks are working with dangerous virus research "suppressed mode" NO TRANSPARENCY... Too much bias in this discussion to be good science.
Awesome and amazing discussion
Fantastic interview
Great interview and discussion.
Fantastic interview. Such a clear speaker.
Tks tks tks for this great, informative and so fun section!
Tsk, tsk, tsk?
Authentic Conversation!
Hospital 'referrals' in China: I live in Changsha, 300km S of Wuhan, since 2014. GPs do not exist. If you have a health issue you go to the outpatients section of the nearest hospital. Sure it has some drawbacks and you don't have a medic how knows your medical history. But if you need some blood tests, you get them in 30 minutes. If you need a CT scan it's about an hour. Etc etc. Lots of delays normal in Western hospitals just never happen.
His Manchester presentation is referenced many times. Is it available anywhere? I need something simple I can send to the conspiracists.
1:12:00 - Not spreading further in Europe would be explained by it being a new spillover that was not yet well adapted to spread from human to human, or population density (Codogno in Lombardy has a population of 15,789 while Wuhan is over ten million).
The euro specific mutation does sound more like contamination, but there was also serological data. There are multiple papers that are all ambiguous.
We need a journal that publishes negative results, if the few ambiguous papers showing it in Europe in 2019 are part of a set containing a hundred definitive negatives then they're nothing, but if only a dozen studies were done and a handful are ambiguous that's something important to keep investigating.
No evidence elsewhere definitely doesn't eliminate a lot of places, e.g. we'll definitely never know if it was Turkmenistan or North Korea, both still claiming zero cases even now.
I don't think it is too unusual for people to be angry at the doctor when they do not understand these kinds of sicknesses. I wish it would rain in Colorado, USA. Maybe these viruses are around a long time and weather or something causes it to spread like wildfire.
What about all those patients who didnt have any connection to the market? Who were not even there ?
The market was a later but bigger outbreak. The first reports of a serious respiratory ailments were occurring in September. The CCP said it was an American that brought it to China at their military games in Guangdong.
Wonderful discussion. Thank you Mr. Holmes! I just feel like I wasted my life not being a virologist.
56:00 If it came from a lab, the speaker claims, the odds of finding it in the market next door are infinitesimal. What? If you let it out of a lab in any given city, the first thing you'd do is slather it all over the nearest scapegoat, scape-bat, or what have you. Especially if you're fairly sure it has a low infection fatality rate. Especially because it will be good for grant-getting, vaccination-mandating, and other things that support your guild. Let's just say the speaker isn't trying his hardest to make sense. It would be insulting, prematurely, to use any other of the available explanations.
How is it premature? The data he's talking about has been available for 2 years. It seems like you have your pet explanation for where the pandemic originated and aren't willing to consider what he's saying could be true
The point in the first sentence was great and then got real silly real fast.
Lol Genius how did they know that it has a low infection fatality rate ? Lol .
Please hit the like button, people. This is high quality science, no BS allowed!
Fascinating. Thank you.
He is amazing! I wish all my conspiracy lab leak friends would listen to this twiv
35:05 "My colleagues at the University of Hong Kong emailed me and said I've got this sequence of a pangolin, it's kind of close...suddenly the pangolin, the same sequence, more or less is there...there it is in nature...that must be natural.
Totally fascinating thank you so much
Anyone know the procedures with submissions and acceptance/ publishing with GenBank?
One thing that puzzled me with Zhang et al. SARS-CoV-2 sequences on GenBank were the date stamps. GenBank have submission date 5 Jan 2020 (which was the date when the sequencing was completed, not the sample date of collection), but published by GenBank on the 12 Jan 2020 (first version). Was there a delay by GenBank in publishing the sequence, or?
Ref:
Wuhan seafood market pneumonia virus isolate Wuhan-Hu-1, complete genome
GenBank: MN908947.1
It is explained here (pp 46 to 51).
Ref: Controversies around SARS-CoV-2 origin (part 2) First genome sequences: rush and embargo
The sequence was under embargo at GenBank. The processing at that time was manual (it is now an automated process, so submissions can be released within hours).
A few days after submission, the news about a new virus spurred the GenBank staff to search for recent submissions that may be related to the outbreak so that their processing could be prioritized. Following that, the submitter was requested to review the entry before being published. This all took nearly a week.
@@gribbler1695 Thank you (much appreciated). So it was probably just a processing issue.
But I wonder if Eddie was aware that his colleagues submitted the sequences to GenBank on the 5th Jan?
Note, after the virological website provided the sequences on the 11th Jan, 3 other Chinese labs provided SARS-CoV-2 sequences to GISAID (12 Jan). In hindsight, GISAID might have been a quicker route.
@@kazoz3520 Sidenote: by November 2019, NCMI was already warning the President that this virus had pandemic potential. I’d be surprised if someone hadn’t sequenced it by then already. Good luck trying to get that data though.
28:45 " did you find anything? No SARS-COV2..."
Reasons for redactions?
Are you from the US? Our government routinely redacts documents for national security reasons.
@@patriciagiles5833 I think he might be referring to how Eddie Holmes states that the redacted parts were just normal scientific discussions. Presumably the US government wouldn't need to censor that for national security....right?
@@Serg897 The redactions may serve to protect the source of the information.
@@Serg897 It's up to the individual government agencies to make that call.
P.S. When I was working as an assistant investigative journalist, I made FOIA requests for records all the time. Occasionally, I compared unredacted records side by side to redacted versions.
Some of the redacted data in those documents seemed benign, but at the time was likely sensitive information.
In this case, it makes sense for security reasons a/o to protect the identities of sources due the concern of biological weapons release and general mistrust of Chinese government. I'm only speculating here.
As the person above said, redactions also protect sources and their testimonies especially during investigations.
Oh those were the days. It's very nostalgic to revisit the hysteria of the times. This Holmes guy seems to be typical of the scientific establishment, throwing caution to the wind, in favour of u-turning speculation on the fly..What scared them so much?.
Dr John Campbell needs to have a chat with this guy
Campbell would be destroyed if he came on here
China-compromised gain-of-function cover-up cabal. Trying to back away from the grenade: "It was just a paper!" From Jeremy Farrar's book: " 'Fuck, this is bad,' was Eddie's first reaction to Kristian's observations. His second reaction was to call me on the burner phone. "
It was a regular standard paper, not a 'papal decree' as Eddie put it. Try listening to what he said instead of your fever dreams, though I can barely decipher what you are saying. Why people are upovoting you I can't understand. People who know nothing about the science I suppose. The lab leak theory is dead, 100% and of no scientific interest and is a purely cultural or politcal matter now.
That’s so incredible learning it’s the only way to go
So he isn't going to mention that he had been sequencing RaTG13 as a WIV collaborator,or that the panoglin match is bullshit?
He made it clear where RaTG13 comes into the picture.
A pangolin link cannot be ruled out.
Ref: SARS-CoV-2-related pangolin coronavirus exhibits similar infection characteristics to SARS-CoV-2 and direct contact transmissibility in hamsters (iScience, June 17, 2022)
Ref: Pangolins and the origin of SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus Virology blog (Racaniello, Feb 2020)
@@gribbler1695 cannot be ruled out is different from being anywhere close to being well supported by the evidence, and he never admits his conflict of interest
32:35 "Oh my god, what worse words than that"
watched Saturday 10.1.22 in Chicago
The only ppl who didn’t bungle the communications was a Chinese language newspaper published from and for San Francisco Chinatown. The journalist(s) responsible for the SF Chinatown articles knew the virus circulating in Wuhan and the risk to San Franciscans was of hugest concern. And that time was of the essence because during the upcoming Lunar New Year holiday period there would be millions of people both coming from and going to Wuhan and that there was highest probability that the virus would be moving out of Wuhan bo🎉h China-wide and internationally with the Lunar New Year travelers. Thus, before the first COVID 19 cases started popping up in the United States, San Francisco Chinatown (1) Knew about the disease in Wuhan and as a result of the Chinatown newspaper’s work, the pandemic never gained a foothold in San Francisco’s Chinatown despite the early cases and COVID fatalities in Silicon Valley (Santa Clara) and the Seattle area. By the early weeks of March 2020, the disease was already spreading in the greater San Francisco Bay Area - a relative of this writer had contracted the disease by the first week of March. That person believes they contracted it during a ride on the BART public train system, between San Francisco and their office in Silicon Valley.
Really? I read about the virus in early January, in MMWR, from the CDC.
Everybody got Covid, including the San Franciscans. All non-pharmaceutical interventions were futile in the end.
@@roncarlin3209 Yes, a possible explanation for so many people getting exposed and not getting sick might be explained by gastroenterologist Sabine Hasan. Check out what she discovered about C-19 and gut bacteria.
@@roncarlin3209 I get the impression that Eddie is a CIA operative. Just a wee bit too disingenuous.
If authoritarian regimes start to spread, will we be obligated to use Kelvin?
Vincent et al, you guys need to have your names on your screens at all times for people who don't know your faces or are not as familiar with your podcast host lineup. 😊
Vincent was a mask fanatic. I wonder what he thinks now that the Cochrane Review has verified that the masks had no effect.
A lot of what really smells like self-serving revisionist history. Both interviewer and guest here I'm sure had no problem with the tech censorship of any discussion of a lab leak, despite strong evidence from the FOIA emails this is something they themselves took very seriously.
There is no evidence whatsoever.
Agree, they have forgotten this already
So emails are your evidence for a lab leak? 😂
@@davoforrest5 Must you be so naïve? The emails were so heavily redacted and had to be repeatedly requested to see what they were hiding. And Eddie Holmes says when those emails are revealed, they will show Fauci and Collins were only interested in the science.
Well they have been revealed and that truth is that Fauci and Collins were collaborating on a cover up. They revealed that they were in fact funding and promoting GOF research through Eco Health Alliance and the WIV was their main research lab. They tasked a group of lackeys to write the spurious letter in the Lancet to promote a natural origin cover story and here we are again.
Eddie Holmes asks over and over where is the data and fails to mention what happened to the the data and the lab animals in the WIV.
This man is such a fraud it's so obvious. The WIV was immediately locked down and all data and animals were allegedly destroyed . Eddie knows this and has the gall to ask "where's the evidence"? Well why doesn't he go cozy up to the Bat Woman and see if she will fess up?
This guest is so full of BS, he even pleads for not damaging the relationship with China by demanding answers.
This guest pretends he doesn't know how a communist country operates. He doesn't know that the WIV also has a top secret bioweapons lab that no foreigner is allowed to even see.
The idea that this guest says how important it is to be sharing scientific data with China is completely ignorant on the way a communist government works. China has a declared goal to dominate the world and any fool who thinks they can trust a communist country to collaborate on bioweapons is insane.
No evidence emerged from emails, what are you talking about?
Misleading title - this is about Covid origins
Thank you for so clearly explaining how all those silly conspiracy theories were so completely disproven back in January 2020 😦 so very sad that so many of them are still going strong built on a web of willful ignorance 😒 great chat TWIV! 💜
People like to blame bad things that happen on those they don't like.
Like the black death being blamed on Jews poisoning the wells all those centuries ago. The only virus being spread deliberately is the hate spread by those who get a kick out of accusing others. It's called "projection".
What?
. . . is the Department of Energy’s role in investigating a viruses origin? or maybe what does a “low confidence” actually mean to the DoE and why not say “we don’t know” instead?
The vast majority of people believe that this came from the Wuhan institute. Absolutely no One believes these guys
@@emerraldxbecause they think the most likely explanation is that it was a lab leak. Same-day don't know what imply they don't have an opinion
I feel sorry for the friend in China. Wild life...trace back ...come on.
I have been in one..and yes there is wild life
This has not aged well, now that on the Mar2023 the FBI thinks lab leak, and Fauci, Farrar et al's repuations are in tatters.
@roncarlin3209 it doesn't matter to this crowd. This is a pro big pharma crowd, they know which side to take. Did you catch their show where they boasted about the Atlantic Magazine article on the alleged Chinese CDC website posted DNA samples from the Hunan Market area before it was all torched? You got to watch it, it's hilarious. Shameless shills.
It has aged well as of Thursday, June 13, 2024 . There is zero evidence of a lab leak and the theory is officially dead. Partly due to some good science. Much of it explained above by Eddie, or did you not really listen.
33:00 Farrar organizes call w Fauci, Collins, etc
November can't come soon enough
What happens in November?
@@minRef A fantasied trumplican midterm landslide leading to public execution of public servants who did their best to mitigate a healthcare disaster despite the bunglathon of TFG. Or something. I'm not privy to the actual contents of OP's mind.
@@minRef 5TH November perhaps?
@@christopherrobinson7541 What does that have to do with viruses?
Holmes needs to take a benzo. Dr Watson.
As an English speaker from North America, the term "cock-up" (as in, "cock-up is usually a more likely explanation than conspiracy") tends to stand out to me. Oddly enough, the last time I heard that expression was in the context of the BBC trying to explain the remarkable coincidence of one of their correspondents announcing the total collapse of Building 7 at the World Trade Center in New York City on the afternoon of September 11, 2001 twenty minutes before it actually happened. But of course, the laws of probability have nothing to do with "real" science...
Will you leave Australia? (12,30 -1330) I think Eddie like all of us will want to stay where his grandchildren are. A fter all grandparenting is an evolutionary thing %^)
LOL! He's CIA, he goes where he's told to go.
Once people develop faith in science the priests will command the flock into accepting God's will.
It's not a blame game - it's criminal and/or civil responsibility. If there's nothing important in the redacted parts then unredact it. The fact the cleavage points are unusual proofs nothing, btw - from a logical point of view. Remember around 18 million people died and the infections are causing long lasting damage to people's bodies. My 2 brothers and my mom had COVID-19 (omicron) and we all should hope none of those who were infected and survived have no long lasting problem that will end up shortening their lives.
One nice thing in the Australian public health system is the use of Blcokchain to keep the medical records - such technology should be used to all types of document archival.
1:31:52 "yeah but that's our fault then" uh no, you guys are trying and people seem proud of their ignorance and unwilling to change it. and this pride in ignorance is not a new phenomenon!
I agree with Dickson. It was a hoot!!!!
It was a great interview, except of Dixon's moronic interjections.
I ♥️TWIV, I also love an Australian accent❤️!
He needs a few more years b4 it qualifies
He has an English accent, being from England
His accent is 100% English.
35:00 pangolin
"by complete chance"
"totally by complete chance"
This guy is a terrible liar
You're a terrible scientist
Well, he's good enough of a liar for this TWIV show. He fits right in with this group.
Just for a more balanced view, listen to Dr. Robert Redfield's recent appearance on The Rising.
@@cantweallgetalong why would anyone place more value on Redfields opinion when he is unaware that the new data (re: raccoon dog) is publicly available on Zenodo? He also fails to address the best evidence yet (the presence of 2 substrains at the wet market). Bottom line is we will never know. Dismissing one of the world's top evolutionary virologists, because you find his work contradicts your preconceived ideas, smells a little of confirmation bias.
@@Costa_Conn You probably want to listen to Dr. Robert Redfield's interview on The Rising show before you make incorrect assumptions.
His opinion offers an insiders view of what occurred and the misleading information he was given from the Chinese CDC director Dr Goa and Dr. Fauci and Dr. Collins.
He goes into a very logical explanation of his different opinion on the incoming information and lays out why he holds those opinions.
He even admits his own mistakes and realized how he was being left out of the loop intentionally, because he was not buying into the manipulated C-19 NIH news releases.
If you only allow yourself to be exposed to one side of the discussion, you will make uniformed comments like you did above.
This show routinely provides the least likely to be correct information and I watch it because I believe in hearing from as many sources as possible.
The Raccoon dog story discussed on this show was another perfect example of the reason why I have such a low opinion of this show.
Just imagine if Dr. Redfield referred us to a story in a magazine known for publishing tabloid style stories and so spurious that the authors themselves repeatedly disqualify the evidence as unverifiable and not conclusive and not able to be published in a peer reviewed journal?
Would this show report on it as proof, if it suggested that C-19 origin was a lab leak?
great conversation. They have demystified a lot of nonsense concerning the origins of the current pandemic. You just have to get through 15-20 minutes of navel-gazing before we get to the "beef."
Nothing is nonsense about a new virus appearing, anything is possible and has to be considered
Thats not a scientific position.
i also think Holmes is forgetting the impact of the previous Sars epidemic in China on why the authorities acted as tey did.
This guy will eventually be in prison for all the mistakes he made during this speech.
He is not a pro liar
Instead of insults, why not refute his points with evidence, data, publications etc?
@@Costa_Conn **lol** you know why
@@annoloki shh now, I'm trying to be nice. Doesn't happen often
@@Costa_Conn I know I've tried with journal articles, data, etc. from published papers .. This RUclips page does not allow many of my comments to be published publicly. (I'm in the research sciences and have been for over 20 years). As much as I've seen the good of TWiV over the last few years, I've come to realize that a true scientific discussion is not allowed here. It's a pity that it's not - goes against all the principles of science I've come to love.
Too many men, too many people, making too many problems