1000 hp capable Ford production line 5.0 block.
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 5 июн 2022
- In this, episode 58 of PowerTec 10 DV examines the block weakness of Fords immensely popular Windsor range of small blocks (260,289,302 & 351). Starting from relatively low buck upgrades he takes us all the way through the details of what it takes to allow a factory production line block to hold out against a 1000 turbo HP and a good aftermarket block to maybe as much as 3000 turbo HP.
Авто/Мото
The depth that DV gets into anything and everything is amazing .
Thank you for the SBF content 👍
Hello David, I have watched quite a few of your episodes and frankly I was not sure how serious to take you. I am a friend of Leonard long and I heard him talking about his 415 CID 10,000 RPM five championships and giving you much of the credit. Therefore, in my mind, you are the man.
Ive used a 302 72 block, made a cap plate 1/2" steel on the 3 middle caps, then this is bolted through the sump sides onto side plates that act as engine mounts, they also tie the cap plate ont the side walls of the block.
Alloy heads & twin turbos, it's at about 700bhp & holding up so far, I do have it dialed in to keep the power lower in the RPM which I think helps a lot...... great vids David!
I’d love to see a video of that. Actually screw it even a picture.
What's your range for lower rpm?
Just started watching some of these…love the way you present them…slow and informative…too many speed talkers out there…in my opinion.
I just learned so much that I saved the video and created a new play list so I can find these videos easily.
More great content David. It was a great one, from the Great One.
Thank you DV for all the great info.
Thanks for the awesome info!
My solution to this problem has always been to call up Brodix and send them about 6 grand. Great information. I love channels like this. Real world results and scenarios.
Thanks for sharing your years of knowledge.. I have to say your one of the legends 👏🏻👏🏻
thanks DV, Andy and everyone involved the information you guy's pass on is priceless. God bless everyone
Good info. Thanks for sharing!
It's so nice to see a knowledgeable guy speak clear and slow. I really appreciate the calm explaination of yours. Thanks buddy amd subscribed!
What a wealth of knowledge you possess. DV does such a great job at putting complexity into simplicity. Great video
Awesome content. Thank you
The sound quality from 6:30 till 9:30 was excellent! Thank you! This deserves a thumbs up)
I've made 700rwhp with same DSS girdle on a stock block and street drove it for 3 years with a Vortech Supercharger on 18lbs
The early 8.2 deck blocks also have head bolts that are blind in comparison to the later roller blocks. I run the DSS main support system on my 9.5 Windsor block. It was transferring metal at the mains before the girdle upgrade. It also had ARP studs at that point. Seems to have stopped now. Doesn’t look any worse. 625 hp N/A stick shift drag car.
Excellent video thanks David. Regards Greg
As an eager 302 follower I enjoyed this video.
Thank you David.
Mr. Vizard! My respect to your experience and wisdom.
I had wondered about the effectiveness of these girdles and was very dubious of the aluminum girdles, but now I know better, so thank you once again Mr Vizard.
If I may, I would also like to point out that here in Australia, Ford in combination with a company called Tickford developed a 5.6litre Windsor stroker in 1999/2000 that were installed in a limited number of Speciality Ford sedans here in Australia (search for "Tickford AU series 3 TE50"). Amongst the modifications they made to these engines was a steel maincap girdle!
Oh by the way the engines were rated at 260kw (348hp) and were hand assembled here in Melbourne (?). Additionally, the engines featured 1 5/8" headers (I think ceramic coated), a cast stoker crank made in Melbourne, I think by a company called Crankshaft Rebuilders, billet con rods made by a Victorian engineering firm, appropriate cast pistons, GTP heads that were prepared by PerfectTune in Melbourne, an appropriate roller cam (and I think Yella Terra roller rockers) and crowned with a unique inlet manifold which housed 8 long runner tubes like those seen on race cars.
The power rating, at 348 was intended to compete against the LS1powered Holdens of the time that were producing about the same power. These engines were replaced by the 5.4litre Boss motor in the next model in 2003.
Thank you once again Mr Vizard.
Sounds very entertaining, is there anything on this engine build on the internet ? Thank You 🇺🇲 🇵🇷 🦊 👍
thank you david , have a great day
terrific information
Incredible! I've been out of touch with David for more than ten years, and I chanced upon this! As usual, I deeply appreciate his incredible breadth and depth of knowledge.
I'm excited to hear about that 525, in turbo form. It sounds like something I need in a mud truck!
You hear facts on this channel that other channels have no clue about. Fascinating indeed!
Very good DV
Thank you. One comment about turbos: turbos use the heat content in the exhaust to make boost. The closer to the exhaust valve(s) you place a turbo, the more efficient your power production will be. Positioning a turbo farther away from the heads results in a tradeoff where the turbo increasingly uses the pumping action of the pistons ( aka back pressure) to drive the exhaust impeller and to a lesser extent the heat energy to make boost. And you lose efficiency which means to make the same power at the crankshaft, you need to use more boost and this imposes greater strain on the rotating assembly.
Great info David …. Thank You
Thankyou David.
I was 1k,great video, I had one of your books in the early 80s
Thank you for the information.
Very informative
Awesome video 👍
Thanks for video!
You are a legend here in Ontario Canada Mr.Visard
DV is a legend everywhere
Really good info thanks 👍🏻👍🏻
Good video as always. Waiting for the video on the Jaguar V12 heads.
Now some pictures I've seen of split-down-the-middle 5.0 blocks make more sense.
I have always wondered if a Small block Ford engine from a Shelby gt350 or a Cobra was a factory Ford short block block like any other car or if those engines were manufactured for Shelby completely different and made much stronger as cast. Good video that explains why the Ford small blocks can split down the center and how to stop it.
Awesome knowledge
I would agree anytime you use a stud griddle you help hold the block together. That's just common sense. I would think it would also help harmonics and even them out threw the block. In the early seventy as a tool and die maker and drag racer I made my own back then cause I didn't have a four block main block. It was a 350 engine with just stock new angle heads they came out with with no porting. I wish I would have ported them but just didn't have the time. Needless to say it was a big block killer except for 1 BB car. That SBC really ran smooth to 7,500 rpm. Ran it for 4 years and never had anything done to it. Me and a buddy drank a 6 back of colt 45 several times and I got brave and went out in the country and went threw the gears with slicks for hours. I sold it to a guy and in one night he went threw 60 gallons of gas. That engine never blew up he just wreck the car one night right into someone swimming pool.
We used too re-drill 289-302 7/16” main cap bolt holes too 1/2” 351-W main studs and girdle line hone to help with main cap walk at high rpm’s.
That is actually cheaper than buying a aftermarket block so that is a very good deal and I believe that it would hold together very well, everything that you talked about is very accurate, If I had known this earlier i would have sent my block to that guy but I have the information now ive often thought about doing similar mods to the block as well but lack the tools and some skills necessary
Thanks!
Nice to se that concrete is beeing suggested again.Too many experts have said "do not bother, buy aftermarked block" for years now.
we have broken 4 SBF D.S.S blocks with girdles on them N\A. they all still ran and could reuse all the internal parts. We ended up going to aftermarket block.
Ford designed the low deck Windsor to be an economy car engine, so it had to be lighter than the Chevy Mouse which was used in family vehicles and trucks. The high performance K code "challenger" 289's had wider main caps, but to install them you will have to align bore and if you're considering a stroker crank (back in the day it was a Y block truck crank to reach 327 cid--the problem is on a 289 block a stroker kit will pull the pistons out at BDC enough they will rock. But in 1967 the last batch of 289 blocks had the extended cylinder wall seen on the 302 blocks to follow) it will end up higher inside the block and closer to the camshaft, where the lobes can kiss the connecting rods (esp. H rods). Speaking of rods, the Boss 302 used longer 289 rods, helping the thrust areas on the cylinder walls. Ford also made the core plugs threaded so they added strength to the side of the block. Many blocks in fact have a weakness by attaching to engine mounts in their middle, which is why race engines use engine plates in the front.
Second point, MOST 5.0 pushrod engines can't be bored past .040 inch without problems. but every now and then you find a "casting mistake" and that block can go out .060 over. No one seems to know how many "escaped the quality control" but no doubt they make up some of the "miracle stories" of blocks making it past 500 hp.
Third point, Ford changed the firing order on the High Output 5.0 pushrod engines to the 351 W. A change to the crankshaft in the 1980's resulted in a different weight flywheel--a clue that something was amiss. Look at the regular 301.9 cid firing order, and you notice the front two cylinders fire off at the same time. Now, imagine that happening on an engine with a lot of stress on its crank pulley--such as a supercharger belt tightened down so it won't slip off while making maximum boost to push the engine past 500hp. This firing order is found in the camshaft, so how many 5.0 litre cams are out there being ground to the old firing order rather than the HO/351W firing order that does not fire the two front cylinders off at once? DV has already talked about camshaft companies and what they know and do not know--many will create a Chevy small block type grind and lifter design and sell the kit for non Chevy engines, and the result will be oiling problems in the lifters and a camshaft that doesn't fit the peculiarities of an "off brand" cylinder head design.
I think the reason the light girdle works is that it prevents thel caps from vibrating as individual devices; with the girdle they are tied together, and counter act each other's movement, damping out the movement of the individual caps.
I would love to hear what he thinks about the 7.3 Godzilla and see what his version of building one would look like.... Can we make that happen
its gets me,,you buy an engine with 1000 hp, then you want 2000 hp.. will it last 20 yrs,, thats the question.. i went from fast 4rs to v8,s. easier putting fuel in tank,,than w/ends in shed.. i say to you type guys,,if you can,t run 3 secs,1/4,s,why bother..all been done before..
@@harrywalker968 just being a red blooded American Guy
@@johnnycole7990 in my head I’m hearing Tim Allen’s, “Tim the Tool Man Taylor” caveman grunting and saying “MORE POWER,,,,”. ,,,,lol
I've always wondered about the "higher nickel content" anecdotes. When I was a youngster, they were saying the same thing about the Australian castings for the 351 Cleveland blocks being stronger because of a higher nickel content. And while it may be true, I've not seen anything resembling a metallurgical assessment to confirm it, let along testing to determine whether that higher content would actually give a significant increase in strength.
Having played with those anchors and comparing them with US blocks [GT Blocks] they have good and bad points. Personally I feel the 'normal' 300HP Gt XY XA block is better but swings and roundabouts. Dreadfull oiling average cooling and bloody heavy. Though with very thin bores, they all seem to flex @ .030. The Aussie block as I have with 2 bolt is strong enough
I am in the process of going too a 5.0 roller cam block. EL Falcon. Not chosen for any special thing except for availability. Better oiling, better [but not great] cooling and a LOT lighter. 347 capacity will make more power but less torque than the 358 Clevo with 6" rods. But the car will handle better without the lump over the nose.
There is no such thing as a high nickel block.
@@ldnwholesale8552 i had a 351 in an xe s.pack,cough,,wagon.. with big cam. still have engine 15 yrs later..pulled like a train, no problem with handling. chain of ponds, s.a. yes, lighter is better. the 289, is lighter than a capri v6, as they were meant to be diesel. i hve 3. 351,s. 1. fe 352, & a 340 r/t chall. 73. lump over nose. 460, alloy everything you can, weighs same as 351, but with 600 hp..easy..reliable. no major mods. they had around 450ish std, 70.. if anyone says go LS,, tell them, its a lotus copy.. not chev..chev cant build engines.. never had a cooling prob. or fail with clevo. plus, we beat the yanks at the drags,clevo. the 2v cayote, seems the go.. oiling, 351,302 heads std cam, thrashed for 14 yrs,,on lpg,,no probs..in a bronco. with 35,s.
@@DaveMcLain is too.. i spent 45,000 nickles building an engine.. so naaaah...
This is a very timely video and it's great to hear a shout out for RSS Racing. I'm basically down the street from them so it is good to know they are a high quality shop. I'm at the very beginning of working on a FE 390 (MCC Mirror 105 core) stroker and the plan is to use a girdle, ARP studs with stock main caps. Going with a full cross bolt modification seems too costly. Might as well go with an aftermarket block at that point. Doing a half fill on the block was something I was considering. It would be a 650hp+ street motor if all goes well. Time will tell. Thank you!
stud girdle where you going to use for the mains I didn't know anybody made one for the FE cuz it's basically making it like a 427 bottom in.
why don't you get three middle caps often Fe for boat 427 and put them on your block and line on it and then you got a crossbow bottom end cuz I found that 390 core that had all the bosses in it to do that it just didn't have the hadn't been finished
@@jackies8538 It comes down to cost and complexity. New 427 style caps with cross bolts are high cost considering the extensive machining required. Perhaps a stronger solution but I am limiting the RPM to 6000. The engine builder/machinist I used wanted the experience of setting up a FE girdle. So the cost was very, very economical.
+1 on the big block Chrysler requests. Also, tips specific to porting the factory iron Chrysler heads would be appreciated. I've gotten a lot of good info from your videos on small block Chevy heads (and your book on porting), but it would be helpful to know if there are tricks which do not translate well from the Chevy heads.
Balance is the key.
A tip for david by Bloodviking
Using aluminum heads will weaken the block. Cast heads give small block engines more strength to keep everything together.
I bet David doesn't know this but.
The cadillac 472 and 500 blocks can take the most hp of any factory block we have tried. 2500 hp and still held.
Bv
I've always wondered if these were worth buying or just for show. Now I know without a doubt!
I like the lifter valley plate solution. Those stupid 302 blocks like to crack in half down the lifter valley over 650hp.
I would love to see your take on dodge big block strength and how to improve it
reduce the weight of your reciprocating assembly
The valleys crack down the lifter valley
David good video, I don't understand why there is so many people having trouble keeping these blocks together we run in the 9s with the e7 ported heads and all stock long block we have never split a block or even blown a motor up and these motors have been around from the 80s and 90s with 2 and 3 hundred thousand miles on them if you look at our channel you can see how hard we run them Grover boys racing on youtube however the blocks I've seen people break has mostly been due to detonation
Terry, big difference in running 9’s with a sub-2800lb car and a full weight 3400lb+ car. Mark Miller holds the stock block 1/8mi record with a number of sub-5 second passes. He’s got to be pushing 800+. Attention to detail, balancing, blueprinting and careful precision assembly along with a good tune makes the difference between one holding 800 or breaking at 400.
@@carportshenanigans5918 I've seen many people break these engine's with just heads and a cam that was my point regardless of weight
I'm off to see the vizard!
Nice
Very few people seem to run plate mounts front and back for more stability. And I'd run bushed plate mounts.
There is plenty of vibration measuring gear out there, I am a bit amazed engine builders dont use the technology more often when revving engines past the OEM rev range
Iv moved up to a 8.5 block just for the strength aspect. But I've got plenty of 8.2 stuff still.
Would love a discussion on minimum cylinder wall thickness and how much if any does it matter on down the bore from the deck as the pressure in cylinder drops very rapidly as the piston moves down the bore.
Bob Glidden said the 90s EFI 5.8 windsor blocks in the F series trucks and E series can withstand 900hp factory, but I agree the 5.0 is living dangerously at 450hp and above
Thank you for the great video and information, it is much appreciated!
Where can we find that lifter valley brace?
I have the DSS main stud girdle and windage tray for my 302/5.0. I got it years ago before I got hurt. I keep hoping to get everything installed along with a Novi 2000 supercharger before it's my turn to pass on.
How about a video on crankshafts and how much power they can support, say a common cast iron, vs cast steel, vs forged?
discussions like this cause me to wonder what the lads did at ford, shelby, h&m when endurance racing in the day. *godspeed to your dear daughter.
They got the good stuff
@@superkillr you have evidence they got different blocks?
Another awasom video thanks for sharing this with us I'm at a loss hear do you still run water wen you have concrete in the block ? And another question is this block only for drag racing and not for the street really curious
Interesting about the “Made in Mexico” blocks. Always thought that it something to stay away from in the Small Block Chevy world. Is there any correlation between the Ford and Chevy Mexico casting on the blocks. The old warranty replacement SBC “target” blocks were Hecho in Mexico through the 80’s and 90’s.
Fascinating video always wondered why these blocks fail. But I’m confused as to why one would dump this much money into a stock junk block with the high quality aftermarket ones available today? Is it a just to see if it’s possible type on project?
Are you drunk?
Great stuff. Are these concepts transferable to a Mopar Big Block B/RB?
Mr. Vizard, when will you make a video about thin piston rings low tension and home made oil sump "carter" gases evacuation system, and is it really worth it.
Procharger is the way to go less back pressure.can you do a ls1 block video and let us know the limits
DV are you still doing your classes? I thought it would be great to attend. I know Covid-19 put the brakes on a lot of things. Thanks JC
Yep👍
Great stuff with DV... And as most Ford guys know, the 302 Ford Windsor (5 liter), won Lemans twice. That is that nasty old 24 hour race. Would be nice to see the mods Ford and friends did to keep that little screamer lasting for 24 hours under race conditions
When did Ford win Lemans with a 302? Possibly a 289…. But I only re all the 427’s winning Lemans in the GT40’s
The block for the LeMans small blocks which won in 1968 and 1969 were cast in England. They were heavier, and also a better grade of cast iron. A friend had one, with the Gurney Westlake heads. A very nice casting.
@@johnsalvaterra1355 wow I never knew that. I guess after the 427’s put whoopin on everything they put a 5.0L limit on engines in the following years at Lemans. Who was building the engines for Gurney? Holman Moody built the 427’s…
4 bolt billet staggered mains
Block fill
Front plate mounts
Valley brace
Most factory blocks break at the 450 to 650 mark.
High rpm kills blocks too
More excellent information. The ford users have a harder job to do. How about Chrysler?
How about firing order from 1-5 to 1 3 7 2 6 5 4 8? Help taking load of front of crank?
Got any info on the new cast 351 boss blocks? Was thinking of building one for a mustang gt the 4.6 still has low miles like 40k so i have some time to hunt for info.
Yup, walking caps we called it.
How are you getting 525 cid, and 2500/300hp out of the 454 block!?? I'd love to see a video on that bad boy. Mr Vizard no one in the RUclips automotive community shares as much knowledge, or slays as many misperceptions as yourself.
Ford and Chevy have a short skirt for the mains mopar has a deep skirt to keep Caps located and reinforced. Could you test stock for stock? .
FE Ford motors are skirted (and some cross bolted), just like BBMopars. The returned to the skirts and cross bolts in the new 5.0 Coyote series.
When I strengthen a block I assume it can't take more then about 2 to 300 hp over what limits they are known to fail at. High rpm is bad combined with high torque. So about 600 to 700 would be the limit I'd try on a 302 production block.
Bloodviking
👍👍👍
With your fine expertise do you have somthing to share on the jag v12?
Killing myths with real knowledge.
Will the crankshaft survive at 600+ HP or will it bend?
DV; Thank you! v/r wh
What can I do to My GM 010 350 .060 block over to hold up to 7000rpm and 600hp? Is anything needed to get done to help. It's just a street engine.
This channel is dead for now, find his other channel here: www.youtube.com/@DavidVizard
The best way is an aftermarket block. Not a seasoned one.
Bloodviking, engine builder
We used cement before in a block.lol
A factory block bare stock that will take 1200 hp is the bbc tall deck.
You only have audio on the left side.