Presuppositionalism: Chris said it better the first time. 1:47 “... you can’t know that logic is true unless god exists as that foundation” - assumes logic already exists. The point is that they try to rely on logic to prove the necessity of god, but then god is necessary for logic to work. It is a circular argument and self-destroying
"“... you can’t know that logic is true unless god exists as that foundation” - assumes logic already exists...wrong God is the foundation. Logic is immaterial, how do materialists explain the foundation for logic? Evolved reason? So the law of non contradiction had to evolve?....lol
Get the presup to state their argument in strict premisses/conclusion format. Then point out the unproven premise and/or faulty inference. Because there will be one.
Really?..... Ok let go with the premiisses and conclusion of 1Romans 18 - 22. This proves there is no such thing as "atheism" and that they are merely suppressing their unbelief.
@@ShanqDad "Really?..... Ok let go with the premiisses and conclusion of 1Romans 18 - 22. This proves there is no such thing as "atheism" and that they are merely suppressing their unbelief." It asserts this; it does not prove it.
@@JMUDoc It clearly states the following........ 20"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.". So are you asserting you "DO" have an excuse or that 1 Romans 20 "Doesn't actually say what it says?
@@ShanqDad I do have an "excuse": I really, truly, honestly do not know that the universe was created by a god. Romans is wrong. Don't believe me? Don't care.
@@JMUDoc the problem is you "SAY" you don't know but the way you live every day tells a different story. You live like the universe is being controlled, managed, and tended to and not like every thing could just fly apart chaotically!
Well, I’m a Christian who despises both presuppositionalism and the ontological argument, so - I’m about in agreement with you guys I must say. Presuppositionalism is definitely widely rejected and for good reason.
@Auf RUclips nicht an Politik interessiert Our Knowledge is based on the scriptures, which tells us that in Christ is found all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. This is not the correct view of Presuppositional apologist. We claim that Christ is the bases of all knowledge claim, and our question is simple, give us another bases for knowledge, ethics, and metaphysics that is consistent.
@Auf RUclips nicht an Politik interessiert .....sooo... Do you have another base for knowledge or don't you. How do you come to know that Christian beliefs is a fairytale?
@Auf RUclips nicht an Politik interessiert thank you for the explanation. So in order for something to be real, you need to see it, taste, touch, feel? That sums it up right?
@Auf RUclips nicht an Politik interessiert no sir I'm not offended. Thanks for asking that. These are excellent questions I don't have a full thought out answer to. I'm assuming that you hold to an evolution view of human origin, and big bang theory (correct me if I'm wrong). Have you ever seen these theories play out before? Is it something you can test to see if it's true?
One time after staying up 48 hours I went to sleep. I then had a lucid dream where I saw a distant bright light surrounded by darkness. I asked "God?" (I was an atheist but always pictured God if it existed as a light through a New Age influence) then the light twinkled. Then I woke up feeling pure joy. I went outside where everything had a white aura like sheen around it. Most strikingly everything in the world made sense even the evil as if it was part of a grand plan. Then I realized my head was numb, it was internal, and most importantly I recognized that other than the hallucination the effect was the same as many years earlier when I tried Valium. The light was from a sunbeam coming through the window hitting my eyelids. I then went on to research what happened was a "Dopamergic Release", and it tied in to my research on addiction. We seek pleasure, and the very act of believing a creator loves you, or saves you from torment is very desirable. We evolved to gather energy to reproduce, and our cognitive abilities though faulty can use thoughts to substitute, or prioritise over these processes. Theists are thought addicts via the *Holy Dopamine Ghost* (Dopamine Reward System). Imagine the euphoria experienced by the average person for believing they won a million dollars (it could be a joke ticket yet as long as they believe). Now imagine someone having the same sensations, but being convinced it's a paranormal contact for believing John 3:16. Check out the science (along with some history) on why the proverbial carrot, string, and stick in our neurology can cause us to error in our thinking. Evolution has it's pitfalls for example believing non-evidence as evidence if we do not stop to think (emotional thinking is not quality thinking, but squashes rational thought). Hoarding, compulsive gambling, believing far out conspiracy theories, and drug addiction are related though certain dynamics are at play. We are all capable of confirmation biases, and compartmentalized thinking (holding & protecting a belief in the face of contradicting evidence). The Holy Dopamine Ghost (Thoughts are addictive): ruclips.net/p/PLQATeZAnm87BaJjBtM1vMIq_gHRmBq3ie "Genetic and behavioral factors influencing religiously motivated behavior appear related to dopamine metabolism and signaling. Inclination toward religious behavior and motivation has been associated with a polymorphism on the dopamine receptor gene DRD4 (Comings, Gonzales, Saucier, Johnson, & MacMurray, 2000;Sasaki et al., 2013). Acquired disorders of dopamine physiology also show links to religious behaviors." www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5478470/ "Religious and spiritual experiences activate the brain reward circuits in much the same way as love, sex, gambling, drugs and music, report researchers at theUniversity of Utah School of Medicine. The findings will be published Nov. 29 in the journalSocial Neuroscience." unews.utah.edu/this-is-your-brain-on-god/ These neurological processes reinforce neural pathways (bridging literal gaps) in the brain in order to repeat thoughts, and behaviours like energy gathering (eating) along with specie perpetuation (sex). Going from drug addiction to Religion is just a placebo switcharoo (not a miracle). Dopamine in varying levels is also related to creativity, patternicity, making nonsense make sense, and hallucinations (involuntary movements, tactile/feeling embraced, and speaking in tongues are also forms of hallucinations). Also see "Dopamine Hypothesis". Note that Paul was schizophrenic (2 Cor. 12:9), the early church was encouraged to hallucinate (Gal. 3:1-5), and perform glossolalia (1 Cor. 12:10). "Dopamine, adrenaline, and noradrenaline are neurotransmitters that belong to the catecholamine family. Dopamine is produced in the substantia nigra and ventral tegmental regions of the brain, and dopamine alterations are related to schizophrenia (1, 2). Dopaminergic projections are divided into the nigrostriatal, mesolimbic, and mesocortical systems. Impairments in the dopamine system result from dopamine dysfunctions in the substantia nigra, ventral tegmental region, striatum, prefrontal cortex, and hippocampus (3-5). The “original dopamine hypothesis” states that hyperactive dopamine transmission results in schizophrenic symptoms." www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4032934/ "Dopamine In schizophrenia (SCZ), there is evidence that very high levels of dopamine in the limbic system play a major role in emergence of hallucinations and delusions. Antipsychotic medications, which block central dopamine activity, alleviate the hallucinations of psychosis. Drugs with strong dopaminergic effect, such as L-dopa, methylphenidate, bromocriptine, pramipexole and piribedil, may induce hallucinations. D-amphetamine, a direct dopamine agonist, may also induce psychosis and hallucinations." www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996210/ "Tibetan mystics have long practiced a method to create sentient beings from the power of concentrated thought." www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_ca/article/exmqzz/tulpamancy-internet-subculture-892 Mesolimbic System (instinctive ancient part of the brain) overrides the Frontal Cortex (rationalizing modern) building a cognitive wall. Dopamine Enhances Optimism Bias "Here, we show that administration of a drug that enhances dopaminergic function (dihydroxy-L-phenylalanine; L-DOPA) increases an optimism bias. This effect is due to L-DOPA impairing the ability to update belief in response to undesirable information about the future." www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3424419/ Mark 3:28-29 says that the one unforgivable sin is rejecting, or being blasphemous to the *Holy Dopamine Ghost* which is funny since it's the conduit through which one accepts nonsense as gospel.
Ancient people did not know the neurosciences, and some thought that joy came from the divine on high. The Hellenized Jew Philo of Alexandria (a contemporary of Paul the Apostle) believed that the Divine Word/Right Reason/Logos (a character derived from OT scripture, and Greek philosophy) poured down spiritual nourishment as a reward for righteous thoughts about God. Philo: ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT Book 2 "XXXVII ...And *who can pour over the happy soul which proffers its own reason as the most sacred cup, the holy goblets of true joy, except the cup-bearer of God, the master of the feast, the Word* ?" ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION, III "LX ... *the soul very often, when it is delighted, is yet unable to explain what it is that has delighted it; but it is taught by the hierophant and prophet Moses, who tells it, “This is the bread, the food which God has given for the Soul,” explaining that God has brought it, his own Word and his own Reason; for this bread which he has given us to eat is this Word of his* ." Philo: ON FLIGHT AND FINDING "XXV *Those also who have inquired what it is that nourishes the soul, for as Moses says, “They knew not what it was,” learnt at last and found that it was the Word of God and the Divine Reason, from which flows all kinds of instinctive and everlasting wisdom. This is the heavenly nourishment* which the holy scripture indicates, saying, in the character of the cause of all things, “Behold I rain upon you bread from Heaven;” (Exo. 16:4) for in real truth it is God who showers down heavenly wisdom from above upon all the intellects which are properly disposed for the reception of it, and which are fond of contemplation. But those who have seen and tasted it, are exceedingly delighted with it, and understand indeed what they feel, but do not know what the cause is which has affected them; and on this account they inquire, “What is this which is sweeter than honey and whiter than snow?” And they will be taught by the interpreter of the divine will, that *“This is the bread which the Lord has given them to Eat.” (Exo. **16:15**) What then is this bread? Tell us. “This,” says he, “is the Word which the Lord has appointed.” This divine appointment at the same time both illuminates and sweetens the soul, which is endowed with sight, shining upon it with the beams of truth, and sweetening with the sweet virtue of persuasion those who thirst and hunger after excellence* ." Philo: ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION, II "XXI ... *who brought forth for thee out of the hard rock a fountain of water, who fed thee with manna in the desert, which thy fathers knew Not?* ” (Deut. 8:15-16) ...Moreover, the soul falls in with a scorpion, that is to say, with dispersion in the wilderness; and the thirst, which is that of the passions, seizes on it until *God sends forth upon it the stream of his own accurate Wisdom, and causes the changed soul to drink of unchangeable health; for the abrupt rock is the Wisdom of God, which being both sublime and the first of things he quarried out of his own powers, and of it he gives drink to the souls that love God; and they, when they have drunk, are also filled with the most universal manna; for manna is called something which is the primary genus of every thing. But the most universal of all things is God; and in the second place the Word of God* . Philo's Divine Word has many attributes (just a few of them summarized below) including being anointed as well as having a father (God), and a mother (Divine Wisdom). www.iep.utm.edu/philo/ Philo: THE SPECIAL LAWS, I "XVI ...Now *the image of God is the Word, by which all the world was made* ...." Philo: ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT "XXXVII ...For there are, as it seems, two temples belonging to God; one being this world, in which the *high priest is the Divine Word, his own firstborn son* ." Philo: ON FLIGHT AND FINDING "XX ...For we say that the high priest (Jos. 20:1-6) is not a man, but *is the Word of God, who has not only no participation in intentional errors, but none even in those which are involuntary* . For Moses says that he cannot be defiled neither in respect of his father, that is, the mind, nor his mother, that is, the external sense; "He shall not go where there is a dead body; he shall not defile himself even for his father or mother." (Lev. 21:11) because, I imagine, he has received imperishable and wholly pure parents, *God being his father, who is also the father of all things, and Wisdom (Greek Sophia personified feminine wisdom Prov. **3:13**-20, 8:1-36) being his mother, by means of whom the universe arrived at creation* ; and also because *he is anointed with oil, by which I mean that the principal part of him is illuminated with a light like the beams of the sun* , so as to be thought worthy to be *clothed with garments. And the most ancient Word of the living God is clothed with the word as with a garment, for it has put on earth, and water, and air, and fire, and the things which proceed from those elements* . ...Nor will he “rend his clothes;” (Lev. 21:10) for *the Word of the living God being the bond of every thing, as has been said before, holds all things together, and binds all the parts, and prevents them from being loosened or separated* ." Who would believe that the OT, and NT are revelations from an omnipotent/omnipresent being except a thought addict via the *Holy Dopamine Ghost* (Dopamine Reward System). The Idea of the Sanctity of the Biblical Text users.cecs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/CohenArt/#8a Dr. Ehrman "Forged" archive.org/stream/BartD.Ehrman-ForgedWritingInTheNameOfGod-WhyTheBiblesAuthors/Forged_djvu.txt Dr. Ehrman "Misquoting Jesus" archive.org/stream/Prof.BartEhrman-MisquotingJesus/BartD.Ehrman-MisquotingJesus_djvu.txt i.imgflip.com/1ydvtk.jpg skepticsannotatedbible.com
i used to take lsd, many times i would congratulate myself on being brave enough to leave the flat to go to the toilet, and looking out the window while i pee'd i would reflect on how beautiful the river and the forest outside the window was, i did this quite a few times until i realised there was no river or forest, just the underpass for the dual carriageway that reflected the lampost light in the rain.
Watchmaker: I dissembled that without the Theory of Evolution. The universe has parts that crash into each other and have contradictory “purposes”. Watches don’t. Everything about the watch contributes to its accuracy, durability, or salability. The universe is not like that. Dillahunty went deeper and said that the one who finds the watch is comparing it to the natural setting of the beach. If everything is designed, then how does the observer notice that the watch is designed, since it has the same characteristic as everything else?
With the watch argument I find the problem inherent in the argument of assumed design,above what you said, is that the premises misses its own argument. If it were looked at sensibly it is more thus You walk along a beach, a stone stands in the centre of the beach it has a rising piece at its own centre, and a few marks around the edge. Seeing this you assume it must be designed-It is after all a sundial, you ignore any flaws, you ignore that it may just be a naturally created object , so you assume a sundial and thus a designer-The sundial is us. Walking further you see a gold watch with intricate designs beyond any logical natural ability to produce, it has incredible detail internally and tells the time, tells the day, tells the year and month, it is the ultimate timepiece. You should therefore assume this watch always existed and had no designer. The watch is God. It is in recognising if we necessitate design and are flawed,limited,not supreme, that anything better than us is far more in need of design, that we can see there is no logic within assumed design.
Presuppositionalism seems to just make a mistake then amplify it. In essence, they are talking about axioms e.g. statements, propositions, concepts, which are regarded as accepted or self evidently true because nobody can discuss them without implicitly accepting and employing them...even in the act of trying to deny them. Example: One cannot argue against the validity of things like Reason or Logic without employing Reason and Logic in the refutation. To do otherwise would be to craft am unreasonable and illogical refutation. So, in that sense arguing against Reason and Logic (while implicitly being forced to accept and employ them) is a bit like trying to lift the stool you are sitting on by gripping the seat and pulling upward. Rather than simply accepting certain concepts as being axiomatic in and of themselves, Presups artificially add "god" to the recipe....which of course adds nothing. I accept and presuppose things like "existence exists" because I can't escape treating existence as though it exists in the act of trying to think about or say anything about existence. Thus existence is axiomatic in and of itself.......no god is needed....it's enough just to recognize the concept as being axiomatic. Saying "existence would be incoherent without a god" is just a claim about the nature of existence but it's not axiomatic in the sense that existence itself is....and so one can dispense with god unless or until sufficient reasons are given to prove the claim. I can argue against the existence of a god without implicitly accepting one's existence. I cannot do the same with things like Reason, Logic, or Existence itself.
The problem with presuppositionalism is presuppositionalism. If you assume god in order to prove god then you are in a circular argument which is rock solid to believers and wholly unconvincing to atheists. This is why those arguments go nowhere.
@@eamontdmas Wow..... You just proved "Presuppositionalism true because there are no atheist in existence, but only those that suppress their belief in the GOD of everything!
@@ShanqDad Well as an atheist I can help you out there. I know my mind better than you do, and I am suppressing nothing concerning your imaginary friend.
@EamonBrennan-f2j LOLOL.. you just proved the Bible right again. It's no secret that the GOD of the Bible knew you would say exactly what you said!!! Please read Romans 1 18-32 again.... slowly this time before responding.
@@ShanqDad Loving your work mate. So the book of your faith says that your faith is true and that people who say that it is not true are saying things which are not true? Didn't see that one coming.
@@ShanqDad how do you tell the difference between someone suppressing what they believe and someone who actually doesn't believe it. What method would you use? Because to just plainly assert what someone else believes would be really ridiculous right? Imagine if someone did that to you; just straight up denied that you believe in God.
"What do you know for sure?", "are we initiating an honest conversation?" "Yes... how do you know x?" Would you like to agree to some basal assumptions so we can move forward?" "how do you know you are talking to me right now (or similar)"? "Thats by definition beside the point" "How do you know that point or ANYTHING is real?" Walk away siting that a conversation was not engaged because they are more limited than 1983 AI. Or you could just repeat "I know you are but what am I" and edit it until you think you are being shown as clever. The point is that this (anything that isn't an argument BETWEEN FACTS) is just a statement/assertion, nothing more. So walk away and hear them say "how do you know that"? ad infinitum. A child plays the "But why" infinite game. Adults really shouldn't. Says a lot about someone who does.
epistemology? presuppositionist? apologetics? i just want to be atheist, blimey the bible was complicated enough crap without non believers talking in riddles too.
Early on, the caller made an interesting point. If we must presuppose God to get a source for our logic, by what means can we be sure we can trust that God? We only have the logic it developed as our tool for this.
@@1godonlyone119 It means nothing. That is the point. Logic is a way of thinking about things. It is not the sort of thing that comes from some entity as a source--nor is logic a "property" of something.
@scienceexplains302 in this case you're missing the most blatant fact which is our mutual knowledge that the GOD of the Bible exist. I confess the fact while you suppress it!!!
Logic exists without “god”: imagine a naturalist universe with no life, just stuff interacting. Can things in that universe be both X and not X? No. If a rock lands in an area without destroying another rock, is there now one more rock in that area? Yes. Logic doesn’t change because there is an observer or creator of the objects analyzed. It is an emergent property (or collection of properties) of nature.
@Auf RUclips nicht an Politik interessiert Yes, but I wanted to address theists and focus on the one issue - is a mind required for things to behave logically
@Auf RUclips nicht an Politik interessiert You may find that Presuppositionalists attempt this circular reasoning: A supposed logical argument to prove that their version of god is required for logic to work.
Gods are a bad idea made up by primitive, ignorant people and propagated via indoctrination, threats with torture, and weak false promises, that only appeal to the unthinking and desperate.
For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse. For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles. Therefore God delivered them over in the cravings of their hearts to sexual impurity, so that their bodies were degraded among themselves. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served something created instead of the Creator, who is praised forever. Amen. Romans 1:18-25 Watching stuff like this just further evidences the truth of God. They fulfill Scripture by their attitudes and minds depraved of true knowledge. May God grant mercy and repentance!
@@Vinciini83 According to you world view rape and slavery are only immoral if society deems it so. We are no more or less than a collection of biological mass that has no inherent value or purpose. Just because the social norms that affect our minds trigger an emotional response to rape and slavery in no way make them objectively immoral.. The best argument you can come up with is that rape and slavery are not beneficial to our species.
@@josephvega1161 Well then, since you already agree that your god condones slavery, and the raping of women & children, how is my "world-view" at all relevant?
They demonstrated they don't understand Presuppositionalism immediately when they said "you called the wrong show. None of us are Presuppositionalists." *Everyone is a Presuppositionalist* Everyone starts with a system of presuppositions (aka a worldview). Presuppositionalism simply proves what the correct system to start with is. Atheists just don't like that the conclusion isn't any non-theistic worldview.
Presuppositionalism: Chris said it better the first time. 1:47 “... you can’t know that logic is true unless god exists as that foundation” - assumes logic already exists. The point is that they try to rely on logic to prove the necessity of god, but then god is necessary for logic to work. It is a circular argument and self-destroying
And logic is necessary for god to work... unless god is illogical.... LOL presuppositionalism
They want it to be
"My god, therefore, logic"
but it's really
"(logic, therefore) my god, therefore, logic.
But they readily admit that they’re being circular because everything is circular. They’re just confusing themselves.
"“... you can’t know that logic is true unless god exists as that foundation” - assumes logic already exists...wrong God is the foundation. Logic is immaterial, how do materialists explain the foundation for logic? Evolved reason? So the law of non contradiction had to evolve?....lol
@@JMUDoc lmfao, well you're logically inept. God and nothing else existed until creation. Logic is simply a reflection of God's "preexisting" mind.
Get the presup to state their argument in strict premisses/conclusion format.
Then point out the unproven premise and/or faulty inference. Because there will be one.
Really?..... Ok let go with the premiisses and conclusion of 1Romans 18 - 22.
This proves there is no such thing as "atheism" and that they are merely suppressing their unbelief.
@@ShanqDad "Really?..... Ok let go with the premiisses and conclusion of 1Romans 18 - 22.
This proves there is no such thing as "atheism" and that they are merely suppressing their unbelief."
It asserts this; it does not prove it.
@@JMUDoc It clearly states the following........ 20"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.".
So are you asserting you "DO" have an excuse or that 1 Romans 20 "Doesn't actually say what it says?
@@ShanqDad I do have an "excuse": I really, truly, honestly do not know that the universe was created by a god.
Romans is wrong.
Don't believe me? Don't care.
@@JMUDoc the problem is you "SAY" you don't know but the way you live every day tells a different story.
You live like the universe is being controlled, managed, and tended to and not like every thing could just fly apart chaotically!
Well, I’m a Christian who despises both presuppositionalism and the ontological argument, so - I’m about in agreement with you guys I must say.
Presuppositionalism is definitely widely rejected and for good reason.
What reason is that?
@Auf RUclips nicht an Politik interessiert
Our Knowledge is based on the scriptures, which tells us that in Christ is found all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. This is not the correct view of Presuppositional apologist. We claim that Christ is the bases of all knowledge claim, and our question is simple, give us another bases for knowledge, ethics, and metaphysics that is consistent.
@Auf RUclips nicht an Politik interessiert
.....sooo... Do you have another base for knowledge or don't you. How do you come to know that Christian beliefs is a fairytale?
@Auf RUclips nicht an Politik interessiert thank you for the explanation. So in order for something to be real, you need to see it, taste, touch, feel? That sums it up right?
@Auf RUclips nicht an Politik interessiert no sir I'm not offended. Thanks for asking that.
These are excellent questions I don't have a full thought out answer to. I'm assuming that you hold to an evolution view of human origin, and big bang theory (correct me if I'm wrong). Have you ever seen these theories play out before? Is it something you can test to see if it's true?
One time after staying up 48 hours I went to sleep. I then had a lucid dream where I saw a distant bright light surrounded by darkness. I asked "God?" (I was an atheist but always pictured God if it existed as a light through a New Age influence) then the light twinkled. Then I woke up feeling pure joy. I went outside where everything had a white aura like sheen around it. Most strikingly everything in the world made sense even the evil as if it was part of a grand plan. Then I realized my head was numb, it was internal, and most importantly I recognized that other than the hallucination the effect was the same as many years earlier when I tried Valium.
The light was from a sunbeam coming through the window hitting my eyelids. I then went on to research what happened was a "Dopamergic Release", and it tied in to my research on addiction. We seek pleasure, and the very act of believing a creator loves you, or saves you from torment is very desirable. We evolved to gather energy to reproduce, and our cognitive abilities though faulty can use thoughts to substitute, or prioritise over these processes.
Theists are thought addicts via the *Holy Dopamine Ghost* (Dopamine Reward System). Imagine the euphoria experienced by the average person for believing they won a million dollars (it could be a joke ticket yet as long as they believe). Now imagine someone having the same sensations, but being convinced it's a paranormal contact for believing John 3:16.
Check out the science (along with some history) on why the proverbial carrot, string, and stick in our neurology can cause us to error in our thinking. Evolution has it's pitfalls for example believing non-evidence as evidence if we do not stop to think (emotional thinking is not quality thinking, but squashes rational thought). Hoarding, compulsive gambling, believing far out conspiracy theories, and drug addiction are related though certain dynamics are at play. We are all capable of confirmation biases, and compartmentalized thinking (holding & protecting a belief in the face of contradicting evidence).
The Holy Dopamine Ghost (Thoughts are addictive):
ruclips.net/p/PLQATeZAnm87BaJjBtM1vMIq_gHRmBq3ie
"Genetic and behavioral factors influencing religiously motivated behavior appear related to dopamine metabolism and signaling. Inclination toward religious behavior and motivation has been associated with a polymorphism on the dopamine receptor gene DRD4 (Comings, Gonzales, Saucier, Johnson, & MacMurray, 2000;Sasaki et al., 2013). Acquired disorders of dopamine physiology also show links to religious behaviors."
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5478470/
"Religious and spiritual experiences activate the brain reward circuits in much the same way as love, sex, gambling, drugs and music, report researchers at theUniversity of Utah School of Medicine. The findings will be published Nov. 29 in the journalSocial Neuroscience."
unews.utah.edu/this-is-your-brain-on-god/
These neurological processes reinforce neural pathways (bridging literal gaps) in the brain in order to repeat thoughts, and behaviours like energy gathering (eating) along with specie perpetuation (sex). Going from drug addiction to Religion is just a placebo switcharoo (not a miracle).
Dopamine in varying levels is also related to creativity, patternicity, making nonsense make sense, and hallucinations (involuntary movements, tactile/feeling embraced, and speaking in tongues are also forms of hallucinations). Also see "Dopamine Hypothesis". Note that Paul was schizophrenic (2 Cor. 12:9), the early church was encouraged to hallucinate (Gal. 3:1-5), and perform glossolalia (1 Cor. 12:10).
"Dopamine, adrenaline, and noradrenaline are neurotransmitters that belong to the catecholamine family. Dopamine is produced in the substantia nigra and ventral tegmental regions of the brain, and dopamine alterations are related to schizophrenia (1, 2). Dopaminergic projections are divided into the nigrostriatal, mesolimbic, and mesocortical systems. Impairments in the dopamine system result from dopamine dysfunctions in the substantia nigra, ventral tegmental region, striatum, prefrontal cortex, and hippocampus (3-5). The “original dopamine hypothesis” states that hyperactive dopamine transmission results in schizophrenic symptoms."
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4032934/
"Dopamine In schizophrenia (SCZ), there is evidence that very high levels of dopamine in the limbic system play a major role in emergence of hallucinations and delusions. Antipsychotic medications, which block central dopamine activity, alleviate the hallucinations of psychosis. Drugs with strong dopaminergic effect, such as L-dopa, methylphenidate, bromocriptine, pramipexole and piribedil, may induce hallucinations. D-amphetamine, a direct dopamine agonist, may also induce psychosis and hallucinations."
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996210/
"Tibetan mystics have long practiced a method to create sentient beings from the power of concentrated thought."
www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_ca/article/exmqzz/tulpamancy-internet-subculture-892
Mesolimbic System (instinctive ancient part of the brain) overrides the Frontal Cortex (rationalizing modern) building a cognitive wall.
Dopamine Enhances Optimism Bias
"Here, we show that administration of a drug that enhances dopaminergic function (dihydroxy-L-phenylalanine; L-DOPA) increases an optimism bias. This effect is due to L-DOPA impairing the ability to update belief in response to undesirable information about the future."
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3424419/
Mark 3:28-29 says that the one unforgivable sin is rejecting, or being blasphemous to the *Holy Dopamine Ghost* which is funny since it's the conduit through which one accepts nonsense as gospel.
Ancient people did not know the neurosciences, and some thought that joy came from the divine on high. The Hellenized Jew Philo of Alexandria (a contemporary of Paul the Apostle) believed that the Divine Word/Right Reason/Logos (a character derived from OT scripture, and Greek philosophy) poured down spiritual nourishment as a reward for righteous thoughts about God.
Philo: ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT Book 2
"XXXVII ...And *who can pour over the happy soul which proffers its own reason as the most sacred cup, the holy goblets of true joy, except the cup-bearer of God, the master of the feast, the Word* ?"
ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION, III
"LX ... *the soul very often, when it is delighted, is yet unable to explain what it is that has delighted it; but it is taught by the hierophant and prophet Moses, who tells it, “This is the bread, the food which God has given for the Soul,” explaining that God has brought it, his own Word and his own Reason; for this bread which he has given us to eat is this Word of his* ."
Philo: ON FLIGHT AND FINDING
"XXV *Those also who have inquired what it is that nourishes the soul, for as Moses says, “They knew not what it was,” learnt at last and found that it was the Word of God and the Divine Reason, from which flows all kinds of instinctive and everlasting wisdom. This is the heavenly nourishment* which the holy scripture indicates, saying, in the character of the cause of all things, “Behold I rain upon you bread from Heaven;” (Exo. 16:4) for in real truth it is God who showers down heavenly wisdom from above upon all the intellects which are properly disposed for the reception of it, and which are fond of contemplation. But those who have seen and tasted it, are exceedingly delighted with it, and understand indeed what they feel, but do not know what the cause is which has affected them; and on this account they inquire, “What is this which is sweeter than honey and whiter than snow?” And they will be taught by the interpreter of the divine will, that *“This is the bread which the Lord has given them to Eat.” (Exo. **16:15**) What then is this bread? Tell us. “This,” says he, “is the Word which the Lord has appointed.” This divine appointment at the same time both illuminates and sweetens the soul, which is endowed with sight, shining upon it with the beams of truth, and sweetening with the sweet virtue of persuasion those who thirst and hunger after excellence* ."
Philo: ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION, II
"XXI ... *who brought forth for thee out of the hard rock a fountain of water, who fed thee with manna in the desert, which thy fathers knew Not?* ” (Deut. 8:15-16) ...Moreover, the soul falls in with a scorpion, that is to say, with dispersion in the wilderness; and the thirst, which is that of the passions, seizes on it until *God sends forth upon it the stream of his own accurate Wisdom, and causes the changed soul to drink of unchangeable health; for the abrupt rock is the Wisdom of God, which being both sublime and the first of things he quarried out of his own powers, and of it he gives drink to the souls that love God; and they, when they have drunk, are also filled with the most universal manna; for manna is called something which is the primary genus of every thing. But the most universal of all things is God; and in the second place the Word of God* .
Philo's Divine Word has many attributes (just a few of them summarized below) including being anointed as well as having a father (God), and a mother (Divine Wisdom).
www.iep.utm.edu/philo/
Philo: THE SPECIAL LAWS, I
"XVI ...Now *the image of God is the Word, by which all the world was made* ...."
Philo: ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT
"XXXVII ...For there are, as it seems, two temples belonging to God; one being this world, in which the *high priest is the Divine Word, his own firstborn son* ."
Philo: ON FLIGHT AND FINDING
"XX ...For we say that the high priest (Jos. 20:1-6) is not a man, but *is the Word of God, who has not only no participation in intentional errors, but none even in those which are involuntary* . For Moses says that he cannot be defiled neither in respect of his father, that is, the mind, nor his mother, that is, the external sense; "He shall not go where there is a dead body; he shall not defile himself even for his father or mother." (Lev. 21:11) because, I imagine, he has received imperishable and wholly pure parents, *God being his father, who is also the father of all things, and Wisdom (Greek Sophia personified feminine wisdom Prov. **3:13**-20, 8:1-36) being his mother, by means of whom the universe arrived at creation* ; and also because *he is anointed with oil, by which I mean that the principal part of him is illuminated with a light like the beams of the sun* , so as to be thought worthy to be *clothed with garments. And the most ancient Word of the living God is clothed with the word as with a garment, for it has put on earth, and water, and air, and fire, and the things which proceed from those elements* . ...Nor will he “rend his clothes;” (Lev. 21:10) for *the Word of the living God being the bond of every thing, as has been said before, holds all things together, and binds all the parts, and prevents them from being loosened or separated* ."
Who would believe that the OT, and NT are revelations from an omnipotent/omnipresent being except a thought addict via the *Holy Dopamine Ghost* (Dopamine Reward System).
The Idea of the Sanctity of the Biblical Text
users.cecs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/CohenArt/#8a
Dr. Ehrman "Forged"
archive.org/stream/BartD.Ehrman-ForgedWritingInTheNameOfGod-WhyTheBiblesAuthors/Forged_djvu.txt
Dr. Ehrman "Misquoting Jesus"
archive.org/stream/Prof.BartEhrman-MisquotingJesus/BartD.Ehrman-MisquotingJesus_djvu.txt
i.imgflip.com/1ydvtk.jpg
skepticsannotatedbible.com
i used to take lsd, many times i would congratulate myself on being brave enough to leave the flat to go to the toilet, and looking out the window while i pee'd i would reflect on how beautiful the river and the forest outside the window was, i did this quite a few times until i realised there was no river or forest, just the underpass for the dual carriageway that reflected the lampost light in the rain.
Watchmaker: I dissembled that without the Theory of Evolution. The universe has parts that crash into each other and have contradictory “purposes”. Watches don’t. Everything about the watch contributes to its accuracy, durability, or salability. The universe is not like that.
Dillahunty went deeper and said that the one who finds the watch is comparing it to the natural setting of the beach. If everything is designed, then how does the observer notice that the watch is designed, since it has the same characteristic as everything else?
With the watch argument I find the problem inherent in the argument of assumed design,above what you said, is that the premises misses its own argument.
If it were looked at sensibly it is more thus
You walk along a beach, a stone stands in the centre of the beach it has a rising piece at its own centre, and a few marks around the edge. Seeing this you assume it must be designed-It is after all a sundial, you ignore any flaws, you ignore that it may just be a naturally created object , so you assume a sundial and thus a designer-The sundial is us.
Walking further you see a gold watch with intricate designs beyond any logical natural ability to produce, it has incredible detail internally and tells the time, tells the day, tells the year and month, it is the ultimate timepiece. You should therefore assume this watch always existed and had no designer. The watch is God.
It is in recognising if we necessitate design and are flawed,limited,not supreme, that anything better than us is far more in need of design, that we can see there is no logic within assumed design.
Presuppositionalism seems to just make a mistake then amplify it. In essence, they are talking about axioms e.g. statements, propositions, concepts, which are regarded as accepted or self evidently true because nobody can discuss them without implicitly accepting and employing them...even in the act of trying to deny them. Example: One cannot argue against the validity of things like Reason or Logic without employing Reason and Logic in the refutation. To do otherwise would be to craft am unreasonable and illogical refutation. So, in that sense arguing against Reason and Logic (while implicitly being forced to accept and employ them) is a bit like trying to lift the stool you are sitting on by gripping the seat and pulling upward.
Rather than simply accepting certain concepts as being axiomatic in and of themselves, Presups artificially add "god" to the recipe....which of course adds nothing. I accept and presuppose things like "existence exists" because I can't escape treating existence as though it exists in the act of trying to think about or say anything about existence. Thus existence is axiomatic in and of itself.......no god is needed....it's enough just to recognize the concept as being axiomatic. Saying "existence would be incoherent without a god" is just a claim about the nature of existence but it's not axiomatic in the sense that existence itself is....and so one can dispense with god unless or until sufficient reasons are given to prove the claim. I can argue against the existence of a god without implicitly accepting one's existence. I cannot do the same with things like Reason, Logic, or Existence itself.
God can make us know things for certain.
Only if that thing exists, which it does not.
Says the fallible human, again.
The problem with presuppositionalism is presuppositionalism. If you assume god in order to prove god then you are in a circular argument which is rock solid to believers and wholly unconvincing to atheists. This is why those arguments go nowhere.
@@eamontdmas Wow..... You just proved "Presuppositionalism true because there are no atheist in existence, but only those that suppress their belief in the GOD of everything!
@@ShanqDad Well as an atheist I can help you out there. I know my mind better than you do, and I am suppressing nothing concerning your imaginary friend.
@EamonBrennan-f2j LOLOL.. you just proved the Bible right again.
It's no secret that the GOD of the Bible knew you would say exactly what you said!!!
Please read Romans 1 18-32 again.... slowly this time before responding.
@@ShanqDad Loving your work mate. So the book of your faith says that your faith is true and that people who say that it is not true are saying things which are not true? Didn't see that one coming.
@@ShanqDad how do you tell the difference between someone suppressing what they believe and someone who actually doesn't believe it.
What method would you use? Because to just plainly assert what someone else believes would be really ridiculous right?
Imagine if someone did that to you; just straight up denied that you believe in God.
Why should God set a foundation for knowledge? I don't think I've ever had this explained to me.
God is knowledgeable, so he sets a foundation of knowledge without extraneous effort.
"What do you know for sure?", "are we initiating an honest conversation?" "Yes... how do you know x?" Would you like to agree to some basal assumptions so we can move forward?" "how do you know you are talking to me right now (or similar)"? "Thats by definition beside the point" "How do you know that point or ANYTHING is real?" Walk away siting that a conversation was not engaged because they are more limited than 1983 AI. Or you could just repeat "I know you are but what am I" and edit it until you think you are being shown as clever. The point is that this (anything that isn't an argument BETWEEN FACTS) is just a statement/assertion, nothing more. So walk away and hear them say "how do you know that"? ad infinitum. A child plays the "But why" infinite game. Adults really shouldn't. Says a lot about someone who does.
"Anything that isn't an argument between facts is just statement/assertion."
Is that a fact?
epistemology? presuppositionist? apologetics? i just want to be atheist, blimey the bible was complicated enough crap without non believers talking in riddles too.
Harry Nicholas I’m curious as to why you would watch a video on presuppositionalism if you’re not (as you seem not to be) interested in the details
@dutchchatham1
in many ways the same as you do!
Haven't you read at least some of the Bible???
Reposted again?
Early on, the caller made an interesting point.
If we must presuppose God to get a source for our logic, by what means can we be sure we can trust that God? We only have the logic it developed as our tool for this.
@Pisstake How about stating an argument instead of just blurting out vulgarity?
Again: Logic is God's property.
Thanks for your time!
Logic and trustworthiness are God's personal properties.
You wrote: "...the logic it developed...."
What on earth is that supposed to mean?
@@1godonlyone119 It means nothing. That is the point.
Logic is a way of thinking about things. It is not the sort of thing that comes from some entity as a source--nor is logic a "property" of something.
@@greense65 Nothing you say means anything, obviously, you moron.
Again: Logic and trustworthiness are God's personal properties.
The guy in the plaid shirt is a polytheist, not an atheist.
You do not seem to be a shining example of understanding.
The long-haired guy asserts that PA is a bad argument, but gives no reasons to think that.
He has done so many times. He is quite famous.
It's not an argument. It's a set of assertions.
We can presuppose that it's bad.
@scienceexplains302 in this case you're missing the most blatant fact which is our mutual knowledge that the GOD of the Bible exist.
I confess the fact while you suppress it!!!
@EamonBrennan-f2j neither of us have an imaginary friend although you "May"worship an idol self delusion ?
But that's another afair.
Logic and trustworthiness are God's personal properties.
Mass murder and eternal torture are god's personal hobbies. It is the ultimate douchebag.
Says the fallible human.
Logic exists without “god”: imagine a naturalist universe with no life, just stuff interacting.
Can things in that universe be both X and not X? No.
If a rock lands in an area without destroying another rock, is there now one more rock in that area? Yes.
Logic doesn’t change because there is an observer or creator of the objects analyzed. It is an emergent property (or collection of properties) of nature.
@Auf RUclips nicht an Politik interessiert Yes, but I wanted to address theists and focus on the one issue - is a mind required for things to behave logically
@Auf RUclips nicht an Politik interessiert You may find that Presuppositionalists attempt this circular reasoning:
A supposed logical argument to prove that their version of god is required for logic to work.
God is an eternally existent person, not an idea.
Assertion
Gods are an “eternally” existing, foul smelling bad idea.
And you know this how?
There is only one God, and he is neither Hebrew nor Judeo-Christian.
It’s the assertion king…..
Gods are a bad idea made up by primitive, ignorant people and propagated via indoctrination, threats with torture, and weak false promises, that only appeal to the unthinking and desperate.
For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse. For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles. Therefore God delivered them over in the cravings of their hearts to sexual impurity, so that their bodies were degraded among themselves. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served something created instead of the Creator, who is praised forever. Amen.
Romans 1:18-25
Watching stuff like this just further evidences the truth of God. They fulfill Scripture by their attitudes and minds depraved of true knowledge. May God grant mercy and repentance!
Why should I care what the Bible says?
According to the book you're quoting, your god approves of Slavery and the raping of women & children. May history have mercy on your name.
@@Vinciini83 According to you world view rape and slavery are only immoral if society deems it so. We are no more or less than a collection of biological mass that has no inherent value or purpose. Just because the social norms that affect our minds trigger an emotional response to rape and slavery in no way make them objectively immoral..
The best argument you can come up with is that rape and slavery are not beneficial to our species.
@@josephvega1161 Well then, since you already agree that your god condones slavery, and the raping of women & children, how is my "world-view" at all relevant?
My book says your book is wrong.
What is truth?
They demonstrated they don't understand Presuppositionalism immediately when they said "you called the wrong show. None of us are Presuppositionalists."
*Everyone is a Presuppositionalist*
Everyone starts with a system of presuppositions (aka a worldview).
Presuppositionalism simply proves what the correct system to start with is.
Atheists just don't like that the conclusion isn't any non-theistic worldview.
No you get called out on what you say to back it up and then you run away and lie.
You claim you’ve proven your system is correct. So then do it now……
Here’s one where you made claims and didn’t back them up…..
@dutchchatham1 it's unflinching truth and track record!!!